I am absolutely disgusted by this. Basically they are saying they intentionally and knowingly manipulated Palestinian Americans and pro-Palestinians into allowing a Trump victory and the doubling up of the growing threat of a trans, queer and POC genocide among much more violence.
You may have different opinions from me about the third party voters and the culpability they carry, but I hope we all can agree that Jason Call and company here are blatantly evil and have blood on their hands.
Hoping this can be a moment of reactionary leftist unity. Fuck every leader who actively worked towards MAGA. I’m doing my best to organize and do damage control, but not because some dumbass Jill Stein employee told me to. You should too.
Yes, BUT that's not where we are yet. And until that's where we are, and until the electoral college is also some kind of ranked-choice, it's profoundly immoral to influence people to vote in a way that will cause more harm and suffering.
I don't know anything about the Green party except that they exist and always run for president. Are they actually big enough to have made a difference in the election? I've always seen them as a meme nobody takes seriously.
If every vote cast for Stein in ‘24 had gone to Harris instead the outcome would not have changed.
Personally, my outrage is at the leaders here—at the Green party admitting their goal was to elect Trump and the Democratic party refusing to give a platform people would vote for.
Basically they are saying they intentionally and knowingly manipulated Palestinian Americans and pro-Palestinians into allowing a Trump victory and the doubling up of the growing threat of a trans, queer and POC genocide among much more violence.
😳
I’m not sure where you got all of that info. The tweet and article I read mentions none of what you listed him admitting to saying.
I point this out not because I agree with him; I don’t. I point it out because these types of responses are misinformation, plain and simple. And we have enough of that from everyone else.
Your comment is by suggesting otherwise. If the Green party in the US were actually a serious party, they would be involved in more than just the presidential election.
So please. Stop spreading lies that the Green party is anything but what they are. Stop pretending they didn't contribute to the rise of fascism. Stop pretending they didn't contribute to a Trump win.
And most of all, don't pretend that they didn't know Trump would go all in on genocide.
I’m not referring to the Green Party. I’m referring to the commenter above me and I quoted the part of their comment that I’m referring to as misinformation.
Correct, however there's more than a hundred in local offices. You people always say of they were serious they'd start from the bottom, grass roots. They've been doing that. Your post is misinformation created by your billionaire owners to dissuade any effective organizing in any way that would hurt them.
They haven't been doing it at all. They put all the money into the presidential election - which they can't win - blatantly, and by their own admission across multiple years to take away from democrats.
They are a spoiler party. Thats it.
I have stated nothing but facts, and your response is "but billionaires exist" - what in the wild wild west are you even saying?
Complete nonsensical garbage. Not interested. Goodbye.
I think it's also the unwillingness of the left to accept "baby steps" towards a goal. The right is perfectly happy to inch towards their endgame and it's working.
This is always my biggest gripe too. Even if the right doesn't "win," they take whatever they can get and they hold on to it. They'll put players in every position and strike together and often. There were tons of interviews of concervatives saying, "I don't agree on x, but I like y, so I'm voting for Trump." A lot of the left is "if I can't get literally every single thing I want right now, then I don't care if it all burns down."
As a example, look at slavery. Slavery is abhorrent, but we didn't stop because we weren't getting it all. Only half of the country allows us to be free? Alright, we're running north and we will keep fighting. We learned how to read in poorly funded schools, we sat at colored only tables, we got lesser medical care, lesser resources, but we knew that every small battle was getting closer to winning the war. Yes, it's painstakingly slow, but we did what we had to do to keep moving. Yeah, Harris was not our savior. She had/has issues, but she also seemed like she wouldn't be doing, well... gestures wildly.
Agreed. I didn't hear much if any grumbling from the US conservative base in the decades before Roe was overturned toward their politicians, provided that politician opposed abortion. It was enough they believed the "correct" thing and did what they could within the restrictions of the law, until process aligned in their favor via convenient Supreme Court vacancies.
It's not just the left but the educated. This has been apparent since I did a karaoke night with a bunch of scientists and was booed and shutdown because I "sang a song outside of my range" because I thought we were having fun.
People seem to believe in perfection and that it's the only way to do things which leads to them missing stuff and being jerks to those they don't realize are growing to resent them.
Remember, when the social democratic Part (SPD) and communist Party (KPD) of late Weimar republic Germany enabled the fascist government of Hitlers NSDAP in 1933. All because they were too focused on fighting each other, thinking that after Hitler, who is sure to fail, they will get greater voter turnout in their respective favor?
Yeah, this here has the same vibes.
Spoiler: they did not get their turn or voter turnout because there was no longer a German democratic state (just to make sure us-americans not well-versed in international history understand)
No, but I do remember the liberal government appointing Hitler because communism was considered more of violence than bigotry.... But hey that breaks your point.
It was the communist Party and the left workers party, so both Sides. Because they communist Party declared the left workers Party AS the enemy rather than the NSDAP, Same with the left workers Party.
And yes to the commenter below, who also did Vote itself into government with Hitler were the conservatives back then.
But Point is, both communist and left workers Party not uniting against Faschismus was the enabling factor for the dictatorship that followed.
i think their argument would be that conditions will materially worsen for a significant propirtion of the population, escalating the chances of the working class to become conscious of their chains.
Assuming he is sincere, then I'd assume that he would say that it's not "their" protests at that point but the participation of others.
Under Harris, they stay isolated without energized allies as most people are relieved with the status quo. They hope that Trump pushes things so far to perhaps even cancel elections and trigger a violent uprising that opens the door for them to ultimately win and that is their opportunity to finally replace the status quo. A very dangerous game where a more likely outcome is a far right authoritarian state with lots of suffering and lives at stake, but that's a risk they are glad for everyone to take.
You see this in their rhetoric, that it's not their fault for failing to support a viable alternative to Trump, it's everyone else's fault for failing to agree with them, and maybe now everyone will learn their lesson and agree with them.
I've had conversations with them and they hold that democracy is the wrong way. Essentially they think the citizenry are too stupid and/or lazy to decide how things should be governed. This is pretty much the horseshoe effect, both the far right and far left want to replace the democratic system with something else. If someone doesn't 100% agree with them, they must be wrong and their perspective must be ignored, and democracy means actually trying to work with such people. So they prefer to take their chances with prodding a violent conflict since they've figured they can never win peacefully. If they can't have the presidency, then who cares. No patience for capturing local and legislative offices.
The far right was more effective strategically, playing the game until they could unleash. They played the game with the republican party according to the rules, and then won.
I think the education is tricky, as you have competing interests and you have people countering education by calling it indoctrination. A huge part of the foundation for the situation today started with the conservative radio shows and fox news stepping up to start undermining education, to eventual great effect.
The engagement I kind of have the opposite view. If you can't be bothered to understand the candidates and the issues, then you shouldn't feel pressure to vote.A lot of engagement efforts say "you should be ashamed if you don't vote, it doesn't matter how you vote but just vote". If you are there to just "mark your team" or fill in the ballot according to whatever person hands you a pre-filled "ballot guide" on the way in the door, maybe don't sweat voting. Voting for an outcome without any effort to understand the consequences of that vote is worse than abstaining from a vote.
I can understand there are a lot of races, and my response is that there would be no shame in voting only for the races you can educate yourself about. A partial ballot is fine.
Exactly this, they're playing the very silly, very illogical, very human game of, "it has to get worse, so it can get better".
It's kinda like a smoker who decides to get over smoking by chain-smoking more cigarettes than ever before, to make himself so sick of smoking he can quit. It's a race between getting sick of smoking, and lung cancer.
Most likely things won't get better. Things will get worse, and then worse, and then we die. We gave ourselves lung cancer while chain-smoking to avoid lung cancer.
Can't hear them over the sound of the bombs they send
Edit: to everyone who upvoted the guy below and downvoted me, check their latest comment in the thread. In case they delete it:
Well, you might recall that the funding was approved by Congress, and Presidents should be impeached and held accountable for overstepping those bounds, like how trump was impeached for withholding aid to Ukraine in 2016. Furthermore, Israel is a long term ally, who suffered a brutal terrorist attack in October, and they are in a precarious situation, as their neighbors are not found of their existence, so we have to toe the line between supporting our ally, but also resist genocide and ethnic cleansing. Turns out, geopolitics is not simple.
There's an ongoing ceasefire, trump is all words, but you'd know better if you actually cared about Palestinians more than performatively. The daily deaths are much lower so far than under democrat administration. This is surely not thanks to trump's good desires for Palestinians, he's as much of a genocidal ghoul as any American politician, but the numbers are the numbers
the current ceasefire was negotiated by the Biden administration
Source? I feel like you just make this up. It was enacted literally the day before the inauguration wasn't it? Why enact a ceasefire the day before the inauguration of your political opponent after 2+ years funding the genocide and talking about Pissrael's right to defend itself and arresting students at campuses for protesting a genocide?
Also, there are a lot fewer Palestinians in Gaza left to shoot, so it would make sense that the numbers went down.
God you guys are fucking vile, trivialising stuff like that and pulling out bullshit arguments. The ceasefire is ongoing, that's the reason why orders of magnitude people are being murdered, not a lack of Palestinians to be genocided. Nazis ramped up their industrial elimination of "Untermenschen" when they saw they were losing, despite "fewer left to shoot".
This gave me a good laugh. You believed the propaganda.
I'm curious how this works. If anyone makes a deal anywhere in the world, whoever the US president at that time should receive credit or blame for the negotiations. is that how this works?
Most importantly does this mean I can i blame Trump for the Luka Donic trade to the Lakers?
Getting mad at people for not being willing to condone a genocide is a really wild take to me.
If you're saying that genocide over there is okay so that genocide over here doesn't happen as quickly then I don't really know how to argue that.
We got to this point because the Democrats themselves have been toothless for much of the last 25 years, and prop up the same system that the Republicans are fast tracking even more. The dems did not lose this election just because of the Gaza vote, they lost it because they wouldn't listen to or support the regular people on the street. Dems had the chance to enshrine things into law - they controlled senate and house for the first two years of Biden. They did not codify any protections for trans rights or abortion rights, then used both as a fundraising event.
Over 50% of white men and women voted for Trump this time around.
So instead of getting mad at people who could not conscientiously condone a genocide, why not get mad and dismantle a system wherein a few billionaires get to buy the entire world and commit genocides on a massive scale? The US has been bombing half the world for almost its entire history. That doesn't change because Republicans are in power or Democrats are in power.
The current system is between ultra rich and everyone else. If everyone else keeps shitting on each other that won't change.
You've had two chances to acknowledge that there have been several domestic genocides added in the U.S. and you have not been willing to, so I think you should be asking that question of yourself.
What people get mad at you about is your insistence that checking the box next to somebody’s name on a ballot is a gesture of 100% support for everything on their agenda and everything they have ever done.
The genocide over there and everywhere else is not okay. The fact that the US supports it and does tons of imperialist shit is not okay.
I voted for Harris and genocide is not ok. But you know what else? I have a smart phone and exploited foreign labor is not ok. I have to drive my old car to work and fossil fuels, greenhouse gas emissions, unwalkable towns, and microplastic pollution are not OK. I eat food, and both exploited underpaid migrant farm workers and corporation produced ultra-processed foods are not OK.
The fact that the US is imperialist and supports Israel was simply not on the presidential ballot in the general election. That is not OK, but it is true. Changing that part of the world for the better means working to make the next election’s choices better, whether that means the peaceful rise of a charismatic progressive candidate or a bloody revolution accelerated into being by shot Trump is doing.
Thing is, the Biden Harris administration could easily have put a stop to it at the very beginning.
Harris could have said that she was opposed to the way Biden dealt with the war.
Neither of those things happened.
Harris had almost 3 million less popular votes than Trump. If everyone single person who stayed home because of the genocide in Gaza had still voted for Harris, Trump would still have won that popular vote by a huge amount.
I've seen articles blaming the Gaza vote for it. I've seen articles saying Latinos and black people moved to trump. I've seen articles blaming literally everyone except the fact that the majority of white people voted for Trump.
That's something that needs to be talked about. Why did a majority of white men and a majority of white women vote for Trump?
Why were the democrats so establishment oriented that they have, since 2016, refused to run any single candidate who appeals to the people?
Biden won in 2020 because of how badly Trump managed Covid. People did not vote for him because they thought he was a great candidate, they voted for him because Trump royally fucked up.
Democrats are owned by the same billionaires and lobbyists that control the Republicans. If that entire system is not broken up, there won't be any change whatsoever.
Democrats could easily have gotten more votes if they campaigned on what the regular person was asking for, but they didn't. They spent all their time campaigning with other right wing people. The fault lies at their door for losing this election. And since trump has come in, they have not even had a unified opposition to him - most votes have had some Democrats siding with the Republicans for confirmations, etc.
If people spend the next 4 years saying see you should have voted for kamala instead of addressing the root causes of the issue, all that's going to happen is that within the next 4 to 8 years there won't be another election.
The windows in the US has shifted so far to the right its not even funny. The democrats themselves would be considered a centre right party at best in most of western Europe.
I’m pretty sure I agree with everything you wrote.
I’m a white American disgusted with most of my fellow white Americans. Lots of stuff went wrong with the election and campaign, but every mofo so voted for Trump was alive to see his first term and everything that’s happened since then.
Also agreed that the priority now is to figure out a way forward with a party that actually wants to help people. But when the subject of a discussion is which 2024 vote was best and why, people are still gonna discuss.
I can only interpret this message as accelerationist self-hatred. "No you don't get it, we need to burn the country to the ground and have millions die to make our anticapitalist woo woo utopia!"
You're right asshat, we didn't "re-elect genocide", we (see: your bitch ass) accelerated it. I don't fucking remember Kamala telling us Gaza was going to be a resort and all Palestinians would never be allowed to return.
Man, it's almost like I was right about all those 3rd party fucks that wouldn't admit they supported Trump and didn't actually care about the people in Gaza.
this was actually new to me, idk why. literally before today i was aware of the sentiment around stein but never felt i had enough information to come down either way.
Well, she’s a Doctor Who has absolutely no experience in law, foreign relations, or previously elected positions. So yeah, I wasn’t gonna vote for her anyway 
just once I would like to hear any of you chucklefucks tell me how exactly you're going to make any of this work with all the willfully dumb and eagerly violent people who exist in the country we have right now. it takes decades to change a people, and we have been changed. you don't have the ability, the time, the resources, or the know how to change us again, now or in the future.
Give up then if that's how you feel. I've been beating the drum for electoral reform years and years, yet no one seems interested. I don't care if no one listens anymore, this drum will get smashed till someone takes it away.
electoral reform, really is the way, not just a better voting system but making it easier to vote, making it more difficult to gerrymander, getting rid of fptp.
it's a lot of big asks but if we want to save the country that's how.
also fixing the fucking madness that is the supreme Court
Whoa, either they're incredibly unaware of the recent news in Gaza or this is quite mask off about their side and goals. "the moral stain of reelecting genocide"? Give me a fucking break, the conflict was self-resolving right before Trump's inauguration. Now he's fanning the flames.
It's all about perception. There's plenty of people living in a generational walled garden. They don't see your discourse. They don't see consenting discourse. They see the infallible word of their chosen demagogue. End of story.
yeah, exactly as self-resolving as it is now. It will "resolve itself" when Israel is finished ethically cleansing Gaza. Did you seriously think a Democrat president who wasn't going to stop arms shipments under any circumstances was seriously going to change the dial on American support for the genocide?
Was a ceasefire deal and prisoner exchanges not happening days ago? Were people not out there on the streets rejoicing that the fighting had stopped? Were Gazans not forming lines along the shore walking miles back home? Are we reading the same news? Are we reading the news articles at all?
If you have special words for what that was let me know. Because it seems that you think I'm taking about something else and doubling down with typical irrelevant American conservative brand whataboutism without asking clarifying questions.
Oh, you mean the ceasefire that Israel near immediately violated? The one that Hamas is now back to holding the hostages over, because they have no assurance Israel won't further reneg on the deal? That ceasefire? The one that was basically invented just to make Trump look good as it happened under him?
The Genocide of Palestine has been happening since the 1950s with continued US support the entire time. The fighting has only ever been paused. If there really was dancing in the streets, which I never saw, it was naive and far too soon.
The one that Hamas is now back to holding the hostages over
That's only happening because Trump keeps yapping. He had Netanyahu over just days ago at the White House and he feels reinvigorated after his trip to the US. His change in attitude was so obvious. lol
The one that was basically invented just to make Trump look good as it happened under him?
That happened BEFORE he was sworn in, literally the last week of Biden's. It was THE reason why both Biden and Kamala apparently and a bit awkwardly reacted during Trump's inauguration because their administration had been part of the peace talks and Trump was wedging himself in trying to be in them. They wouldn't let him take credit. lol
The Genocide of Palestine has been happening since the 1950s
Nobody's talking bout the Israeli-Paliestinian conflict as a whole. I'm talking about the one happening right now where Israel was dropping bombs. The crisis. The big one we just had.
The mere fact that you refuse to understand that the current crisis is merely another moment in the broader conflict is reason enough for me not to engage with you further.
You know, I don't mind it that you don't reply. Actually, I'd have appreciated it if you hadn't replied the first time with your little attitude. I won't suffer if you don't do it again. Please don't reply again and waste my time.
Lmfao I guess I don't read the news every single day, huh. You tell me what's been happening with Gaza. Go ahead, explain with your superior intellect for us delusional vermin who crawl out of the rocks.
Typical insufferable, better-than-thou and pretentious Lemming. A dime a dozen.
Until there was a cease fire, and prisoners/hostage's were being released.
But then Trump went on TV with Netenyahu and said the United States was going to take over Gaza, kick everyone out, and develop it into expensive beachfront property.
I mean, that's what actually happened.
People should be free to vote for who best represents them while still counting their vote if their preference didn't win.
Passing state level electoral reform will not only empower the creation of stronger 3rd parties, but also force the legacy political parties to have to compete and actually represent people.
No more safe seats, no more hostage situation, no more voting while holding our noses, only democracy. More democracy was always going to be the solution to this problem. Who could possibly be against more democracy?
While I agree that first past the post is the worst possible option, we need national reform as well.
STAR or RCV has the potential to break the 2 party system where votes are counted, but it comes up short against the electoral college system. As long as the electoral college is how we choose our President we will only have 2 viable candidates and the parties will have elevated power to not only choose our candidates but to elevate their preferred down ballot candidates which hobbles alternative voting mechanisms.
The electoral college combined with citizens United gives the parties practically unchecked power.
National reform will only happen from the bottom up. Need to change the local elections first and push every incumbent out of their seats. The current people in power will never cede.
I'm wondering what the best path forward is… it doesn't seem likely to pass in either Texas or Florida, but sometimes purple states will surprise you. Backup plan is getting ballot measures in enough of the smaller states to make up the same number of electors. The captured SCOTUS would probably shoot it down somehow, but I think enough people would literally riot in the street over that that they'd at least think twice about it.
Here's the thing, in a sane world, the president wouldn't matter quite so much. If you actually had a more reasonable legislature, they would have the political will to actually hold the president accountable for going beyond his scope.
That is to say for those wanting a more "perfect" president than some moderately inactive centrist, don't expect that out a country like this. It's a singular position and really should be the second choice of people who want a more hardcore candidate, with a failure to build consensus on 'the' hardcore candidate.
Very true. One thing that struck me about the last 8 years was how beholden the Republicans were to Trump during this entire time. It was batshit and I cannot remember any other time the legislator was so beholden to a President. We need them to be an independent branch, not scared of one man.
RCV is a bad option that's presented as if it could fix anything.
RCV was first invented in the 1780s, and the inventor wrote about it as the bad idea that it was, but because he was a mathematician, he wrote about the dead ends in the search for something better than the simple First Past the Post system that was in use in America.
The inventor, by the way, was Nicolas de Caritat, Marquis of Condorcet. His life was fascinating, and his death tragic, but for the moment we'll focus on his efforts to find a better voting system.
He created a criteria for a better voting system, now named in his honor. The Condorcet Winner is the candidate who can win against any other candidate in a one on one race. They're sometimes called the pairwise winner.
The point being, RCV, or it's older name of Instant Runoff, cannot reliably elect the Condorcet Winner.
This was why Condorcet abandoned the system.
It was revived by some guys a few decades after Condorcet's death. They didn't care that it was a flawed system, just that it was slightly better than the only other option available at the time.
But that was 200 years ago. We now have quite a few options that are not deeply flawed.
First is Approval. It's a dead simple system that always finds the Condorcet Winner.
How Approval works is thus; you get a list of names on your ballot. Mark any and all that you approve of. You may mark more than one candidate for each position.
The candidate with the highest overall approval wins.
Then there's STAR. It's brand new as far as voting systems go, only created in 2014. But it's also the best system designed to date.
Basically the voter rates each candidate on a scale of 0 to 5. Multiple candidates can have the same rating. To find the winner, you simply add up the ratings for each candidate, then you take the highest two and look at each ballot. The candidate with the higher rating on that ballot gets the vote. If neither of the top two is rated higher on a ballot, either being not rated or rated the same, then the ballot is counted as No Preference, and that number is reported as part of the final tally.
As you said, STAR is arguably better in some ways but Approval being dead simple to explain to people and technically already supported by existing voting machines is worth a whole lot on its own as far as being a good voting system.
Try explaining STAR or Approval to someone who is only familiar with FPTP, see which one they understand more quickly.
Because "Vote for everyone you're OK with winning the office and it counts as a vote for any of them, whoever gets the most votes wins" or "It's just like what we've been doing, but you can pick more than one person and your vote counts for all of them" explains Approval voting.
As opposed to having to do a cumulative total across all ballots to figure out if your ballot counts as a vote at all, before figuring out whether your vote actually counts as a vote for someone you voted 5 for or someone you voted 2 for.
That's fair. I just think being able to sell people on it is a high value part of any solution, and any system where you can't know how your vote will be counted until you count all the other votes is necessarily a harder sell. As is any system where they will have to do something radically different.
As to knowing who wins. Well, that’s always the rub. There is no system that lets you know who wins before all the counting is done.
Not knowing who wins, but knowing who your ballot will be counted as a vote for in the end. The answer is you can't know and it might just be tossed as no vote depending on how everyone else votes.
Imagine we've moved to STAR and leading up to the first STAR election for President someone asks you how to be sure their ballot will in the end be counted as a vote for Jill Stein. The answer is that you can't, because until every other ballot is counted it's impossible to know if any ballots at all can be counted as ballots for Jill Stein in the end. Let alone trying to report on the count as it happens in a coherent way your grandparents might understand.
Mathematically it's great, but it fails at being easy to explain, easy to implement, and easy to report on. Especially to people used to FPTP. It fails in the parts that it needs to most succeed at socially to be a viable option to see adoption.
I'm a pretty intelligent person. And I can understand this small article you've written about voting systems and it's still bored the ever living shit out of me. Do you honestly expect the average voter to be capable of understanding all of what you just laid down here?
Ranked choice voting has the added benefit of everybody can understand what the fuck it is. It's very simple and it's much better than first past the post. Sure it's not perfect but perfect is not going to happen not when people are so dumb that they vote against their own interests simply because a washed up TV star said things they wanted to hear.
Ranked choice voting has the added benefit of everybody can understand what the fuck it is. It’s very simple and it’s much better than first past the post.
Approval is better than Ranked Choice at this. And it lacks the weaknesses of RCV. Literally the only major change from FPTP is that you can vote for as many candidates as you'd like on your ballot. No spoiler effect because there's nothing to spoil. Strategic voting isn't remotely as bad either. RCV is in many cases a step up from FPTP (but not always and the more voters actually understand it the worse it gets) but it's still a bad solution to the problem.
I'd support STAR over RCV because it's mathematically better but my go to is Approval, mostly because of the specific issue with STAR you've pointed out - it's more complicated to explain, vote under and report on than FPTP or Approval.
The thing is, Ranked Choice is broken in dozens of ways. It's actually more broken than First Past the Post.
It gives bad results that do not match the lies that it's advocates tell, because FairVote lies their asses off about the system.
Fuck, it fails the Monotonicity Criteria.
I'll explain this one simply. The Monotonicity Criteria says more support for Candidate A should increase the chances that Candidate A wins. Under Ranked Choice, listing Candidate A first can cause Candidate C to win.
That and the insecurity around counting make Ranked Choice a fucking stupid idea. It was a bad system when invented and it's not gotten any better.
"Yeah Trump is bad, but we can fight him from the underground we're forced to occupy by the threat of execution or exile, but just imagine the moral bad fee fees we'd have to endure if we elected Kamala! That would be worse!"
JFC....
Earth calling nutjob, Earth calling nutjob do you copy? Don't come back. Stay up there.
Ah yes, move these genocided people's into a little bit of land probably occupied by other people. We've never done that before. And if we have there weren't any problems with it.
I've seen idiots around here claim that ethnic cleansing is separate and somehow better than a genocide, and THEN unironically link the UN definition which literally says in the first paragraph that ethnic cleansing and genocide are NOT considered to be separate.
Does it make them feel bigger contributing to forced relocation of Palestinians? And at home, mass deportation? Hope they feel really good about themselves.
No. I appreciate the sentiment but don’t even give this guy that sardonic out. “I want you all to let the leopards to eat your face. I want you to be happy with it.” That’s what he’s saying.
Fuck Jill Stein and every additional piece of shit who promotes her.
Watch this hour long interview Mehdi Hasan did with her. She's fucking horrible and I'm glad the finest interviewer of our time got an hour to push her on her bullshit.
Especially with Jill "any attention is good attention, have you heard my album?" Stein at the lead. She doesn't want a political platform she just wants a taller soapbox to shout from and act smug from.
I don't think mutual aid and civil disobedience is going to stop things like the $7.4B arms sale to Israel that was announced earlier this week. But surely that is part of this acceptable compromise the Greens made?
It absolutely could but yeah it’s not going to since US activists will likely be more focused in democratic threats for the time being.
This is actually an argument I can’t remember anyone making—that the numerous crimes and atrocities the Trump administration would execute in relation to other issues and communities would distract focus from Palestinian liberation and enable further ethnic cleansing. Maybe that would have been more convincing to Harris skeptics but I don’t know.
Tell me for what other reason does a "Green Party" fringe candidate from America fraternize with a round table consisting of the likes of Michael Flynn, Vladimir Putin, and Dmitry Peskov in Moscow? Lmao. Suckers.
I and many others have been calling out Stein's bullshit for well over a decade.
In fact, he wants to take over Gaza and kick ALL the Palestinians out. And people STILL make the argument that a vote NOT for Kamala was somehow opposing genocide. It was never on referendum, for any of the candidates.
Trump’s genocide comes with a golf course and resort for wealthy white people, and maybe an Arab or two if they pay enough money to the geriatric dementia patient in the whitehouse.
This argument boils down to, "I want to be told there isn't a genocide while there still is. I just want the media gone and the watching orgs defunded and threatened so that I don't hear about it. Yes it's still happening at full speed... yes, it's probably even worse now... but I would have heard about it everyday with Harris. With trump, the news is talking about the gulf of America, so I don't have to see it anymore."
You're never going to overcome the moral stain of instead voting for someone who also supports genocide, and works to take people's human rights away, and wants to destroy everything from the public education system to humanitarian causes, and wants to drill for oil everywhere and fill the skies with smoke, and and and and.
Interesting. I really wonder how Ralph Nader is reacting to this. I can't imagine he'd be very proud of this guy. Then again, he cut out of the party after his second run for a reason.
Literally only the mental cases speak this way. By mental cases I mean the people that want destruction of a country for their own greedy reasons instead of building the country to what it once was.
It's absurd for leftists to be talking about Jill Stein when we could be arguing about Hillary Clinton instead. The point is to narrow our coalition till it's pure. (and too small to get their way on pizza toppings)
I get your point but its not because of that. The reasons are varied why Trump won but primarily its because ~70% of the population failed to prevent him from winning.
I'm not responsible for any of this shit. I did not sign up to being born. I did not sign up for a leftist revolution where I die a martyr to a doomed cause so left accellerationists can circle jerk over my corpse as they LARP.
I'm going to hunker down, try to survive. Though admittedly even if I do make it to the end of this shit show my cynicism towards the average person will never go away.
I did stuff before the election like canvass and would have been enthusiastic to do more had Harris won.
But yeah... my motivation is in the core of the earth now... I can barely motivate myself to do basic upkeep in my own life now a days let alone putting effort externally.
If this is the kind of mental illness floating on the left. strap up and strap in, The Republicans will never lose an election again. Even if they are legit
This is so bad it reminds me of the conspiracy theory that Just Stop Oil is actually run by the Oil corpos, with the aim of being so distasteful they turn people against enviornmentalism.
Seems like a good place to leave my final thought on this matter. Electing anyone other than trump or kamala would have sent an undeniable message of "NO!" To the current establishment. The Democrats do whatever they please just look at how they treated Bernie in 2015, Trump was afraid of Bernie! Meanwhile the Republicans make up stories about "what they want to do is the most patriotic!" Then give massive tax cuts to people that already have more than enough money and work to actually create jobs, but then they have less money so they leave their business minimally staffed with part time crew, and a single over worked manager that's on salary and works 60+hrs a week.
At this late in their game of granting themselves political freedoms like assigning any idiot as any agency head they want(for a start! How big is this constitutional crisis gonna get? Cuz that's how far the Democrats have been over reaching already since there's no check or balance against it!), it's about sending a message that we are still the owners of this country, they are just the current management, and are very replaceable just as they have made sure all of us feel in our lives. Abandoning the parties that just kept doing the same thing over and over making everything worse every time, and actually electing someone that wasn't who the Democrats or Republicans wanted, would have actually changed things, no matter if congress didn't work with them, we can't actually change things to be more intelligently designed in this country when special interests like billionaires have so damn much money, and money is legally protected as free speech, rejecting their candidate rejects theur money as free speecg. Keep electing Democrats and Republicans and things WILL get worse, currently it's a tug of war where one parties infected bandage of a solution gets applied and it seems like things are better for their constituents, only for the positive affects to wear off shortly after the other party takes office, no one sees the issue is bad policy that only makes things worse in the long run, they only see things got better for a stretch then the midterms happened. They have cities fighting rural populations for control of systems the citizens have no idea how they work, because all they do is further tighten the leash around our neck while pretending to be on our side. We failed to put our foot down as a country after Democrats had control of the government but refused to install checks and balances against executive orders, refused to touch Roe V Wade, and simply expected the power would revert to them again. We failed when the Democrats and Republicans worked together to manufacturer outrage from us to get elected, and then never even brought things to a vote so we could see publicly who stands against change. The citizens failed and should feel thoroughly ashamed for their actions. I have nothing more to say on the last election.
Dude just missed the entire Republican strategy...
...do fucking nothing and blame everything on Dems. Then get the trifecta and do whatever the fuck they want.
This has been building up momentum for years. Now that they have the trifecta there is little that the Dems can do within the bounds of the system except drag their feet and file lawsuits.
Viewed from this perspective, the dems have been fighting to hold the line back from fascists for decades and just barely doing so by holding narrow majorities and at least one corner of power.
I'm not convinced that Ron Paul's reddit phenomenon in 2008 wasn't a practice run for Trump. The whole thing just seems so weird in retrospect.
Y'all wanna blame anyone but the Dems for their shitty campaign. Last time I checked adding all the green party votes to the Democrats wouldn't have changed the outcome.
Both things are true. Dems ran a campaign they didn't care to win but thought they were owed and Stein is a terrible leader welding the green party like a dog she's neglecting because she thinks it makes her look more responsible.
Don't get me wrong I hate trump and the Republicans too. I blame the Dems because they manage to lose to Republicans. Beating them should be ridiculously easily but they always find a way to loose or not have enough votes to do the good things they promise. Every election they move further to the right. If we had an actual left wing party and not controlled opposition we wouldn't be in this situation.
For sure, I'm just saying that the actual fascists should always get the majority of the blame, even if it's pathetic for their rivals to fail to prevent their win.
Messaging matters. There were multiple Republican and Russian backed propaganda campaigns to pin Israel's genocide on Harris, and urged people to abstain from voting. So it's more than just the 3rd party votes that are potentially missing from the tally.
While her statement is over reaching, she does have a valid point. It will be easier to raise a resistance against trump than harris. This of course benefits her the most if that resistance can vote for her and her party. But it is still a valid point among the spin.
Not sure how when the media, social media, including the new tech (ai), is all in the pocket of trump (or vise versa it doesn’t really matter).
We might have decades of authoritarian rule on our hands. I don’t think sacrificing our neighbors was particularly worth the hope that somehow fascists are easier to fight than liberals. Maybe if you’re a certain demographic. For the rest of us? Fucked.
It will not be easier. I voted Harris. I was a Bernie supporter. My motivation to fight has never been lower. It is in the core of the earth.
My hatred of people responsible for Trump's victory is extremely intense. The idea of unifying with any of them, including the leftist abstainers, is absurd.
Sure, I hate the Trump voters far more, but the abstainers are also my enemy.
Exactly this. People don't understand that if you're at the point where your only option is protesting in the street then you've already lost. I'm sure the Palestinians really do appreciate us standing around with a sign for a couple of hours.
Maybe glue your hands to the pavement and stop traffic, that'll really help them.
My hatred of people responsible for Trump’s victory is extremely intense. The idea of unifying with any of them, including the leftist abstainers, is absurd.
If it comes to down them or literal fascists, I'll do what they didn't have the moral backbone to do, and side with people I think are completely spineless, amoral, genocidal cunts to avert a worse situation.
I respect pragmatism but I just don't have it in me anymore. Part of me is now fueled by a burning spite towards these people so intense I want to go down with the ship. Contributing to a leftist victory now means I validate these accelerationist's desires to drag electoralists into extreme danger for their stupid delusion of a grand revolution or whatever the fuck. One that in the end is likely doomed anyway because we are up against a government that could turn us all into a bloody mist cloud instantly with its military.
Another other part of me wants to forgive them so I no longer feel hatred for most of my fellow Americans. I miss not being a misanthrope. I miss not being surrounded by evil people.
And of course and third part of me is blackpilled since climate change is going to get worse because of Trump and make it kind of not matter anyway.
Opposing genocide is a losing battle to begin with. A political movement organized around a policy, changing policy was resolutely rejected, and the movement was crushed.
It would be more accurate to say letting Trump win was preferred over opposing genocide than the other way around.
I think I've already asked you this and you've already refused to answer, but I'll ask again just in case:
If I challenged you to send an email to a prominent person- a politician, a celebrity, a business leader- asking them to use their power to speak to the media in order to speak on behalf of Palestinians every time you brought up the election, would you do it?
i wasn’t even shaming voters, i was shaming leadership and saying “wow i sure wish trump wasn’t elected”
it’s clear you have more emotional investment in snarky internet comebacks than any other value you may genuinely hold. get back to us when you can reprioritize your shit.
i mean i disagree but have an upvote for at least being honest about your experience and positions.
i was getting sick of all the accelerationist people screaming “lib” at me for daring to be a tad upset that trump is the president and the multipartisan means by which we got here.
Well, when Trump makes it worse by trying to kick the Palestinians out and take over the Gaza strip himself, you can stay at home and feel smug about keeping a woman out of the oval office.
Don't you see? Having the US go from sponsor to active participant in the genocide is actually better than giving a cogent and competent woman the oval office.
I'll ask you what I already asked someone else. I wonder if you'll take me up on it: If I challenged you to send an email to a prominent person- a politician, a celebrity, a business leader- asking them to use their power to speak to the media in order to speak on behalf of Palestinians every time you brought up the election, would you do it?
Talking to the media on a regular basis about what is happening in Palestine is ineffective? So it would be more effective to let them control the narrative? It would be more effective to not keep people informed? You really believe that? Because the near total lack of reporting on the genocide going on in Sudan sure doesn't seem to be helping matters there. Especially since I've had to let more than one person on Lemmy know that yes, there is a genocide going on in Sudan even if they don't want to know about any genocide but the single one they are laser-focused on.
I am trying to get people to do the bare minimum of taking action beyond just pointing fingers at each other and accusing each other of supporting genocide. I guess you would prefer they continue to do nothing but that?
I am absolutely disgusted by this. Basically they are saying they intentionally and knowingly manipulated Palestinian Americans and pro-Palestinians into allowing a Trump victory and the doubling up of the growing threat of a trans, queer and POC genocide among much more violence.
You may have different opinions from me about the third party voters and the culpability they carry, but I hope we all can agree that Jason Call and company here are blatantly evil and have blood on their hands.
Hoping this can be a moment of reactionary leftist unity. Fuck every leader who actively worked towards MAGA. I’m doing my best to organize and do damage control, but not because some dumbass Jill Stein employee told me to. You should too.
She has been to many GOP backed events. It has been known for quite a while that she is run as a spoiler.
i don’t thing it has to be a nagging feeling even :/ i think this tweet basically proves it
i mean he basically says “yeah we did this so trump would win”
like yeah it’s with veiled language but only about as veiled as musk’s “my heart goes out to you”
That’s exactly what she does. She’s a Russian plant who runs for president every four years despite not seeking any other political office.
https://media-cldnry.s-nbcnews.com/image/upload/t_fit-1500w,f_auto,q_auto:best/newscms/2017_51/1955941/170405-putin-flynn-dinner-jhc-1700.jpg
If you have this feeling then you should be working to replace First-past-the-post voting in your state so splitting the vote isn't a possibility.
Yes, BUT that's not where we are yet. And until that's where we are, and until the electoral college is also some kind of ranked-choice, it's profoundly immoral to influence people to vote in a way that will cause more harm and suffering.
I don't know anything about the Green party except that they exist and always run for president. Are they actually big enough to have made a difference in the election? I've always seen them as a meme nobody takes seriously.
If every vote cast for Stein in ‘24 had gone to Harris instead the outcome would not have changed.
Personally, my outrage is at the leaders here—at the Green party admitting their goal was to elect Trump and the Democratic party refusing to give a platform people would vote for.
That includes Biden and Harris, because they prioritized the genocide over beating trump
😳
I’m not sure where you got all of that info. The tweet and article I read mentions none of what you listed him admitting to saying.
I point this out not because I agree with him; I don’t. I point it out because these types of responses are misinformation, plain and simple. And we have enough of that from everyone else.
We are to be held to a higher standard.
It is not remotely misinformation.
Your comment is by suggesting otherwise. If the Green party in the US were actually a serious party, they would be involved in more than just the presidential election.
So please. Stop spreading lies that the Green party is anything but what they are. Stop pretending they didn't contribute to the rise of fascism. Stop pretending they didn't contribute to a Trump win.
And most of all, don't pretend that they didn't know Trump would go all in on genocide.
I’m not referring to the Green Party. I’m referring to the commenter above me and I quoted the part of their comment that I’m referring to as misinformation.
That they are stating in direct reference to the Green Party.
Stop spreading this misinformation, greens hold more offices than all other third parties combined in the US.
There is not one member of the green party holding a federal office.
There is not one member of the green party currently holding a state office.
It is not misinformation.
Correct, however there's more than a hundred in local offices. You people always say of they were serious they'd start from the bottom, grass roots. They've been doing that. Your post is misinformation created by your billionaire owners to dissuade any effective organizing in any way that would hurt them.
Utter and complete nonsense.
They haven't been doing it at all. They put all the money into the presidential election - which they can't win - blatantly, and by their own admission across multiple years to take away from democrats.
They are a spoiler party. Thats it.
I have stated nothing but facts, and your response is "but billionaires exist" - what in the wild wild west are you even saying?
Complete nonsensical garbage. Not interested. Goodbye.
"More than a hundred?" "In local offices?" Sweet! We've got over one hundred Green Party comptrollers! We're saved!
for sure dude
Okay, that’s is succinctly profound.
Don't let a perfect plan get in the way of a good plan.
I think it's also the unwillingness of the left to accept "baby steps" towards a goal. The right is perfectly happy to inch towards their endgame and it's working.
This is always my biggest gripe too. Even if the right doesn't "win," they take whatever they can get and they hold on to it. They'll put players in every position and strike together and often. There were tons of interviews of concervatives saying, "I don't agree on x, but I like y, so I'm voting for Trump." A lot of the left is "if I can't get literally every single thing I want right now, then I don't care if it all burns down."
As a example, look at slavery. Slavery is abhorrent, but we didn't stop because we weren't getting it all. Only half of the country allows us to be free? Alright, we're running north and we will keep fighting. We learned how to read in poorly funded schools, we sat at colored only tables, we got lesser medical care, lesser resources, but we knew that every small battle was getting closer to winning the war. Yes, it's painstakingly slow, but we did what we had to do to keep moving. Yeah, Harris was not our savior. She had/has issues, but she also seemed like she wouldn't be doing, well... gestures wildly.
Agreed. I didn't hear much if any grumbling from the US conservative base in the decades before Roe was overturned toward their politicians, provided that politician opposed abortion. It was enough they believed the "correct" thing and did what they could within the restrictions of the law, until process aligned in their favor via convenient Supreme Court vacancies.
1000% this
I've been pondering about this for an hour. Err. Idk. Yes. No. Maybe. Kinda yes I suppose?
Oh well, back to racoons and owls.
It's not just the left but the educated. This has been apparent since I did a karaoke night with a bunch of scientists and was booed and shutdown because I "sang a song outside of my range" because I thought we were having fun.
People seem to believe in perfection and that it's the only way to do things which leads to them missing stuff and being jerks to those they don't realize are growing to resent them.
"Were going to not elect genocide by electing ultra-genocide!"
🤔
"ps, don't look at our policy concerning Ukraine."
Sounds like the voting system needs an overhaul if those are your two options don't ya think?
Absolutely, but plunging the US deeper into fascism is not going to help with that. When you're in a hole, stop digging.
Right but what did that help with the last election?
Remember, when the social democratic Part (SPD) and communist Party (KPD) of late Weimar republic Germany enabled the fascist government of Hitlers NSDAP in 1933. All because they were too focused on fighting each other, thinking that after Hitler, who is sure to fail, they will get greater voter turnout in their respective favor? Yeah, this here has the same vibes.
Spoiler: they did not get their turn or voter turnout because there was no longer a German democratic state (just to make sure us-americans not well-versed in international history understand)
No, but I do remember the liberal government appointing Hitler because communism was considered more of violence than bigotry.... But hey that breaks your point.
It was the communist Party and the left workers party, so both Sides. Because they communist Party declared the left workers Party AS the enemy rather than the NSDAP, Same with the left workers Party.
And yes to the commenter below, who also did Vote itself into government with Hitler were the conservatives back then.
But Point is, both communist and left workers Party not uniting against Faschismus was the enabling factor for the dictatorship that followed.
It was the conservatives that did that
If a protest could work under trump why wouldn't it work under Harris?
Very true, this guy is a dumb ass.
i think their argument would be that conditions will materially worsen for a significant propirtion of the population, escalating the chances of the working class to become conscious of their chains.
idk tho
Accelerationists gotta accelerate
Well the pedal is currently to the metal, what would you recommend?
Assuming he is sincere, then I'd assume that he would say that it's not "their" protests at that point but the participation of others.
Under Harris, they stay isolated without energized allies as most people are relieved with the status quo. They hope that Trump pushes things so far to perhaps even cancel elections and trigger a violent uprising that opens the door for them to ultimately win and that is their opportunity to finally replace the status quo. A very dangerous game where a more likely outcome is a far right authoritarian state with lots of suffering and lives at stake, but that's a risk they are glad for everyone to take.
You see this in their rhetoric, that it's not their fault for failing to support a viable alternative to Trump, it's everyone else's fault for failing to agree with them, and maybe now everyone will learn their lesson and agree with them.
I've had conversations with them and they hold that democracy is the wrong way. Essentially they think the citizenry are too stupid and/or lazy to decide how things should be governed. This is pretty much the horseshoe effect, both the far right and far left want to replace the democratic system with something else. If someone doesn't 100% agree with them, they must be wrong and their perspective must be ignored, and democracy means actually trying to work with such people. So they prefer to take their chances with prodding a violent conflict since they've figured they can never win peacefully. If they can't have the presidency, then who cares. No patience for capturing local and legislative offices.
The far right was more effective strategically, playing the game until they could unleash. They played the game with the republican party according to the rules, and then won.
Well... Yes. This is more or less true. But that's an argument to increase education and engagement, not to discard the whole system.
I think the education is tricky, as you have competing interests and you have people countering education by calling it indoctrination. A huge part of the foundation for the situation today started with the conservative radio shows and fox news stepping up to start undermining education, to eventual great effect.
The engagement I kind of have the opposite view. If you can't be bothered to understand the candidates and the issues, then you shouldn't feel pressure to vote.A lot of engagement efforts say "you should be ashamed if you don't vote, it doesn't matter how you vote but just vote". If you are there to just "mark your team" or fill in the ballot according to whatever person hands you a pre-filled "ballot guide" on the way in the door, maybe don't sweat voting. Voting for an outcome without any effort to understand the consequences of that vote is worse than abstaining from a vote.
I can understand there are a lot of races, and my response is that there would be no shame in voting only for the races you can educate yourself about. A partial ballot is fine.
Exactly this, they're playing the very silly, very illogical, very human game of, "it has to get worse, so it can get better".
It's kinda like a smoker who decides to get over smoking by chain-smoking more cigarettes than ever before, to make himself so sick of smoking he can quit. It's a race between getting sick of smoking, and lung cancer.
Most likely things won't get better. Things will get worse, and then worse, and then we die. We gave ourselves lung cancer while chain-smoking to avoid lung cancer.
Because trump won't take over Gaza and turn it into a casino strip.......hang on a minute.......
you’d think that would be the obvious mindset people who “care about human dignity” would have, right?
I don't remember hearing any Dems talking about turning Gaza into a beach resort after they purge the locals.
Can't hear them over the sound of the bombs they send
Edit: to everyone who upvoted the guy below and downvoted me, check their latest comment in the thread. In case they delete it:
Oh, did Trump stop sending bombs? I was under the impression he was escalating things.
There's an ongoing ceasefire, trump is all words, but you'd know better if you actually cared about Palestinians more than performatively. The daily deaths are much lower so far than under democrat administration. This is surely not thanks to trump's good desires for Palestinians, he's as much of a genocidal ghoul as any American politician, but the numbers are the numbers
If you had a working memory, you'd recall that trump has been calling Bibi and torpedoing ceasefire and foreign aid talks.
Also, there are a lot fewer Palestinians in Gaza left to shoot, so it would make sense that the numbers went down.
Oh, and the current ceasefire was negotiated by the Biden administration.
But you'd remember all that if you cared "more than performatively."
Source? I feel like you just make this up. It was enacted literally the day before the inauguration wasn't it? Why enact a ceasefire the day before the inauguration of your political opponent after 2+ years funding the genocide and talking about Pissrael's right to defend itself and arresting students at campuses for protesting a genocide?
God you guys are fucking vile, trivialising stuff like that and pulling out bullshit arguments. The ceasefire is ongoing, that's the reason why orders of magnitude people are being murdered, not a lack of Palestinians to be genocided. Nazis ramped up their industrial elimination of "Untermenschen" when they saw they were losing, despite "fewer left to shoot".
Pop quiz... Who was the president the day before Trump was inaugurated in 2025?
Maybe because the preservation of human rights and life should be pursued regardless of who the President will be tomorrow?
This gave me a good laugh. You believed the propaganda.
I'm curious how this works. If anyone makes a deal anywhere in the world, whoever the US president at that time should receive credit or blame for the negotiations. is that how this works?
Most importantly does this mean I can i blame Trump for the Luka Donic trade to the Lakers?
So how is that compatible with the 2+ years of funding and supporting genocide?
They didn't say it out loud, but they allowed the Israeli government to bomb the shit out of Gaza.
Trump said it out loud.
You mean he said it while Biden was trying to persuade us that he was the one most aligned with Israel?
Act matter much more than word
If you honestly believed he wouldn't act when he was back in power you need to have your head examined.
As much as it might displease you the fact is since Trump has won Israël Palestine have truced and civilian are not longer dying on a daily basiq
Not saying it is not going to happens, at least I hope not. Still fact remains to this day.
What a meaningless thing to say in this context, as both parties act the same way: supporting Israel.
So the only difference we have to go by is words. And Trump's are the most ghoulish shit any elected politician has said so far.
What a meaningless thing to vote if whatever you vote both parties act the same. I'm glad we have more than 2 political parties in France
Same here in Germany, but these two parties are not at all the same, even if they don't differ much in that one (and a bunch of other) issues.
Yeah, I mean there are some unimportant issues they disagree on like:
More school shootings vs less school shootings?
Are trans people human or not?
Should non-white people and women be allowed to work jobs?
But let's just ignore those, they're unimportant.
Get fucked and civility be damned. Permaban me
☐ Genocide and things stay pretty much the same
☐ Extra genocide and things get worse
☐ Waste vote (get extra genocide anyway)
"Democracy"
Its almost like money and first past the post elections only serve to narrow down political options.
But now you can stay at Trump hotel, Gaza! Think of the amenities!
I can see the golf course now, wasting more water than Nestle just to keep the greens in shape.
Extra genocide? It's the same amount of genocide...
Do tell that to all the brown and queer people in America. I'm sure they'll all be reassured that there won't be any more genocide.
You might want to reassure the Navajo while you're at it. If you can get to them before they're put into what is definitely not in any way a concentration camp in Guantanamo Bay.
Getting mad at people for not being willing to condone a genocide is a really wild take to me.
If you're saying that genocide over there is okay so that genocide over here doesn't happen as quickly then I don't really know how to argue that.
We got to this point because the Democrats themselves have been toothless for much of the last 25 years, and prop up the same system that the Republicans are fast tracking even more. The dems did not lose this election just because of the Gaza vote, they lost it because they wouldn't listen to or support the regular people on the street. Dems had the chance to enshrine things into law - they controlled senate and house for the first two years of Biden. They did not codify any protections for trans rights or abortion rights, then used both as a fundraising event.
Over 50% of white men and women voted for Trump this time around.
So instead of getting mad at people who could not conscientiously condone a genocide, why not get mad and dismantle a system wherein a few billionaires get to buy the entire world and commit genocides on a massive scale? The US has been bombing half the world for almost its entire history. That doesn't change because Republicans are in power or Democrats are in power.
The current system is between ultra rich and everyone else. If everyone else keeps shitting on each other that won't change.
You seem to have forgotten your previous post where you said, "It's the same amount of genocide."
No it isn't, now there is more genocide. Of brown people, of queer people, and apparently they're coming for the indigenous as well.
But arguing about the election is far more important than acknowledging that, isn't it?
So you are ok with genocide then?
You've had two chances to acknowledge that there have been several domestic genocides added in the U.S. and you have not been willing to, so I think you should be asking that question of yourself.
How have I failed to acknowledge that? I said genocide there vs genocide here. Seems to be an acknowledgement
However by your own logic, you have not said you don't support genocide.
That's a question focused solely on deflection and you know it, lol.
What people get mad at you about is your insistence that checking the box next to somebody’s name on a ballot is a gesture of 100% support for everything on their agenda and everything they have ever done.
The genocide over there and everywhere else is not okay. The fact that the US supports it and does tons of imperialist shit is not okay.
I voted for Harris and genocide is not ok. But you know what else? I have a smart phone and exploited foreign labor is not ok. I have to drive my old car to work and fossil fuels, greenhouse gas emissions, unwalkable towns, and microplastic pollution are not OK. I eat food, and both exploited underpaid migrant farm workers and corporation produced ultra-processed foods are not OK.
The fact that the US is imperialist and supports Israel was simply not on the presidential ballot in the general election. That is not OK, but it is true. Changing that part of the world for the better means working to make the next election’s choices better, whether that means the peaceful rise of a charismatic progressive candidate or a bloody revolution accelerated into being by shot Trump is doing.
Thing is, the Biden Harris administration could easily have put a stop to it at the very beginning.
Harris could have said that she was opposed to the way Biden dealt with the war.
Neither of those things happened.
Harris had almost 3 million less popular votes than Trump. If everyone single person who stayed home because of the genocide in Gaza had still voted for Harris, Trump would still have won that popular vote by a huge amount.
I've seen articles blaming the Gaza vote for it. I've seen articles saying Latinos and black people moved to trump. I've seen articles blaming literally everyone except the fact that the majority of white people voted for Trump.
That's something that needs to be talked about. Why did a majority of white men and a majority of white women vote for Trump?
Why were the democrats so establishment oriented that they have, since 2016, refused to run any single candidate who appeals to the people?
Biden won in 2020 because of how badly Trump managed Covid. People did not vote for him because they thought he was a great candidate, they voted for him because Trump royally fucked up.
Democrats are owned by the same billionaires and lobbyists that control the Republicans. If that entire system is not broken up, there won't be any change whatsoever.
Democrats could easily have gotten more votes if they campaigned on what the regular person was asking for, but they didn't. They spent all their time campaigning with other right wing people. The fault lies at their door for losing this election. And since trump has come in, they have not even had a unified opposition to him - most votes have had some Democrats siding with the Republicans for confirmations, etc.
If people spend the next 4 years saying see you should have voted for kamala instead of addressing the root causes of the issue, all that's going to happen is that within the next 4 to 8 years there won't be another election.
The windows in the US has shifted so far to the right its not even funny. The democrats themselves would be considered a centre right party at best in most of western Europe.
I’m pretty sure I agree with everything you wrote.
I’m a white American disgusted with most of my fellow white Americans. Lots of stuff went wrong with the election and campaign, but every mofo so voted for Trump was alive to see his first term and everything that’s happened since then.
Also agreed that the priority now is to figure out a way forward with a party that actually wants to help people. But when the subject of a discussion is which 2024 vote was best and why, people are still gonna discuss.
Technically it's actually less, there's an ongoing ceasefire. Hope it lasts, but no hope tbh, Trump definitely doesn't care about Gazan lives.
The ceasefire has been violated several times by Israel
I'm aware, but the situation is still better for Gazans than it was before the ceasefire. Fuck the genocidal state though.
I can only interpret this message as accelerationist self-hatred. "No you don't get it, we need to burn the country to the ground and have millions die to make our anticapitalist woo woo utopia!"
I guess it makes sense if you're a Russian asset.
You're right asshat, we didn't "re-elect genocide", we (see: your bitch ass) accelerated it. I don't fucking remember Kamala telling us Gaza was going to be a resort and all Palestinians would never be allowed to return.
Man, it's almost like I was right about all those 3rd party fucks that wouldn't admit they supported Trump and didn't actually care about the people in Gaza.
Not only did they accelerate the genocide in Palestine, they started genocide in the US
Even before this I didn’t think Jill Stein was qualified, now I think her supporters are nutz
this was actually new to me, idk why. literally before today i was aware of the sentiment around stein but never felt i had enough information to come down either way.
i guess now i know :(
Well, she’s a Doctor Who has absolutely no experience in law, foreign relations, or previously elected positions. So yeah, I wasn’t gonna vote for her anyway 
TIL
Feckin Chibnall
And has likely been bankrolled by Russia to act as a divider. She's also why the greens stopped doing non-presidential campaigns.
What the actual fuck.
We intentionally picked the worst thing because it’s the only way to burn civilization to the ground!
Yeah. I just can't with this fucking timeline.
capitalism is not civilization.
but it sure will take civilization with it on the way out
not if we are organized outside of it
When's that going to happen? Why has no one organized it? Are you going to?
I organize locally.
You organize locally to end capitalism?
How has that worked out for you so far?
we arent.
just once I would like to hear any of you chucklefucks tell me how exactly you're going to make any of this work with all the willfully dumb and eagerly violent people who exist in the country we have right now. it takes decades to change a people, and we have been changed. you don't have the ability, the time, the resources, or the know how to change us again, now or in the future.
Give up then if that's how you feel. I've been beating the drum for electoral reform years and years, yet no one seems interested. I don't care if no one listens anymore, this drum will get smashed till someone takes it away.
electoral reform, really is the way, not just a better voting system but making it easier to vote, making it more difficult to gerrymander, getting rid of fptp.
it's a lot of big asks but if we want to save the country that's how.
also fixing the fucking madness that is the supreme Court
The mask is slipping.
The masks are off. Fucking fascist racist pieces of shit
Whoa, either they're incredibly unaware of the recent news in Gaza or this is quite mask off about their side and goals. "the moral stain of reelecting genocide"? Give me a fucking break, the conflict was self-resolving right before Trump's inauguration. Now he's fanning the flames.
It's all about perception. There's plenty of people living in a generational walled garden. They don't see your discourse. They don't see consenting discourse. They see the infallible word of their chosen demagogue. End of story.
yeah, exactly as self-resolving as it is now. It will "resolve itself" when Israel is finished ethically cleansing Gaza. Did you seriously think a Democrat president who wasn't going to stop arms shipments under any circumstances was seriously going to change the dial on American support for the genocide?
Was a ceasefire deal and prisoner exchanges not happening days ago? Were people not out there on the streets rejoicing that the fighting had stopped? Were Gazans not forming lines along the shore walking miles back home? Are we reading the same news? Are we reading the news articles at all?
If you have special words for what that was let me know. Because it seems that you think I'm taking about something else and doubling down with typical irrelevant American conservative brand whataboutism without asking clarifying questions.
Oh, you mean the ceasefire that Israel near immediately violated? The one that Hamas is now back to holding the hostages over, because they have no assurance Israel won't further reneg on the deal? That ceasefire? The one that was basically invented just to make Trump look good as it happened under him?
The Genocide of Palestine has been happening since the 1950s with continued US support the entire time. The fighting has only ever been paused. If there really was dancing in the streets, which I never saw, it was naive and far too soon.
That's only happening because Trump keeps yapping. He had Netanyahu over just days ago at the White House and he feels reinvigorated after his trip to the US. His change in attitude was so obvious. lol
That happened BEFORE he was sworn in, literally the last week of Biden's. It was THE reason why both Biden and Kamala apparently and a bit awkwardly reacted during Trump's inauguration because their administration had been part of the peace talks and Trump was wedging himself in trying to be in them. They wouldn't let him take credit. lol
Nobody's talking bout the Israeli-Paliestinian conflict as a whole. I'm talking about the one happening right now where Israel was dropping bombs. The crisis. The big one we just had.
I said rejoicing. lol
See what I mean? xD
The mere fact that you refuse to understand that the current crisis is merely another moment in the broader conflict is reason enough for me not to engage with you further.
Oh, now I refuse to understand basic ideas! Cute.
You know, I don't mind it that you don't reply. Actually, I'd have appreciated it if you hadn't replied the first time with your little attitude. I won't suffer if you don't do it again. Please don't reply again and waste my time.
Peak liberal delusion.
Lmfao I guess I don't read the news every single day, huh. You tell me what's been happening with Gaza. Go ahead, explain with your superior intellect for us delusional vermin who crawl out of the rocks.
Typical insufferable, better-than-thou and pretentious Lemming. A dime a dozen.
Not that delusional, the genocide was running in a pretty steady pace.
Until there was a cease fire, and prisoners/hostage's were being released.
But then Trump went on TV with Netenyahu and said the United States was going to take over Gaza, kick everyone out, and develop it into expensive beachfront property.
I mean, that's what actually happened.
People should be free to vote for who best represents them while still counting their vote if their preference didn't win.
Passing state level electoral reform will not only empower the creation of stronger 3rd parties, but also force the legacy political parties to have to compete and actually represent people.
No more safe seats, no more hostage situation, no more voting while holding our noses, only democracy. More democracy was always going to be the solution to this problem. Who could possibly be against more democracy?
::: spoiler Videos on Electoral Reform
First Past The Post voting (What most states use now)
Videos on alternative electoral systems we can try out.
STAR voting
Alternative vote
Ranked Choice voting
Range Voting
Single Transferable Vote
Mixed Member Proportional representation :::
While I agree that first past the post is the worst possible option, we need national reform as well.
STAR or RCV has the potential to break the 2 party system where votes are counted, but it comes up short against the electoral college system. As long as the electoral college is how we choose our President we will only have 2 viable candidates and the parties will have elevated power to not only choose our candidates but to elevate their preferred down ballot candidates which hobbles alternative voting mechanisms.
The electoral college combined with citizens United gives the parties practically unchecked power.
National reform will only happen from the bottom up. Need to change the local elections first and push every incumbent out of their seats. The current people in power will never cede.
Pretty much this, and all the focus on the presidential election when they have some shot at winning some districts and such.
Obligatory this thing
I'm wondering what the best path forward is… it doesn't seem likely to pass in either Texas or Florida, but sometimes purple states will surprise you. Backup plan is getting ballot measures in enough of the smaller states to make up the same number of electors. The captured SCOTUS would probably shoot it down somehow, but I think enough people would literally riot in the street over that that they'd at least think twice about it.
Add to that, would also be great if we actually had proportional representation that matched population growth.
Here's the thing, in a sane world, the president wouldn't matter quite so much. If you actually had a more reasonable legislature, they would have the political will to actually hold the president accountable for going beyond his scope.
That is to say for those wanting a more "perfect" president than some moderately inactive centrist, don't expect that out a country like this. It's a singular position and really should be the second choice of people who want a more hardcore candidate, with a failure to build consensus on 'the' hardcore candidate.
Very true. One thing that struck me about the last 8 years was how beholden the Republicans were to Trump during this entire time. It was batshit and I cannot remember any other time the legislator was so beholden to a President. We need them to be an independent branch, not scared of one man.
RCV please
RCV is a bad option that's presented as if it could fix anything.
RCV was first invented in the 1780s, and the inventor wrote about it as the bad idea that it was, but because he was a mathematician, he wrote about the dead ends in the search for something better than the simple First Past the Post system that was in use in America.
The inventor, by the way, was Nicolas de Caritat, Marquis of Condorcet. His life was fascinating, and his death tragic, but for the moment we'll focus on his efforts to find a better voting system.
He created a criteria for a better voting system, now named in his honor. The Condorcet Winner is the candidate who can win against any other candidate in a one on one race. They're sometimes called the pairwise winner.
The point being, RCV, or it's older name of Instant Runoff, cannot reliably elect the Condorcet Winner.
This was why Condorcet abandoned the system.
It was revived by some guys a few decades after Condorcet's death. They didn't care that it was a flawed system, just that it was slightly better than the only other option available at the time.
But that was 200 years ago. We now have quite a few options that are not deeply flawed.
First is Approval. It's a dead simple system that always finds the Condorcet Winner.
How Approval works is thus; you get a list of names on your ballot. Mark any and all that you approve of. You may mark more than one candidate for each position.
The candidate with the highest overall approval wins.
Then there's STAR. It's brand new as far as voting systems go, only created in 2014. But it's also the best system designed to date.
Basically the voter rates each candidate on a scale of 0 to 5. Multiple candidates can have the same rating. To find the winner, you simply add up the ratings for each candidate, then you take the highest two and look at each ballot. The candidate with the higher rating on that ballot gets the vote. If neither of the top two is rated higher on a ballot, either being not rated or rated the same, then the ballot is counted as No Preference, and that number is reported as part of the final tally.
As you said, STAR is arguably better in some ways but Approval being dead simple to explain to people and technically already supported by existing voting machines is worth a whole lot on its own as far as being a good voting system.
Try explaining STAR or Approval to someone who is only familiar with FPTP, see which one they understand more quickly.
Because "Vote for everyone you're OK with winning the office and it counts as a vote for any of them, whoever gets the most votes wins" or "It's just like what we've been doing, but you can pick more than one person and your vote counts for all of them" explains Approval voting.
As opposed to having to do a cumulative total across all ballots to figure out if your ballot counts as a vote at all, before figuring out whether your vote actually counts as a vote for someone you voted 5 for or someone you voted 2 for.
There is an argument for simplicity, but if we're going to change things, we might as well try for the experimentally best option.
That's fair. I just think being able to sell people on it is a high value part of any solution, and any system where you can't know how your vote will be counted until you count all the other votes is necessarily a harder sell. As is any system where they will have to do something radically different.
Two rounds of counting. It's more of a feature. Think of it as an automatic recount.
As to knowing who wins. Well, that's always the rub. There is no system that lets you know who wins before all the counting is done.
Not knowing who wins, but knowing who your ballot will be counted as a vote for in the end. The answer is you can't know and it might just be tossed as no vote depending on how everyone else votes.
Imagine we've moved to STAR and leading up to the first STAR election for President someone asks you how to be sure their ballot will in the end be counted as a vote for Jill Stein. The answer is that you can't, because until every other ballot is counted it's impossible to know if any ballots at all can be counted as ballots for Jill Stein in the end. Let alone trying to report on the count as it happens in a coherent way your grandparents might understand.
Mathematically it's great, but it fails at being easy to explain, easy to implement, and easy to report on. Especially to people used to FPTP. It fails in the parts that it needs to most succeed at socially to be a viable option to see adoption.
I'm a pretty intelligent person. And I can understand this small article you've written about voting systems and it's still bored the ever living shit out of me. Do you honestly expect the average voter to be capable of understanding all of what you just laid down here?
Ranked choice voting has the added benefit of everybody can understand what the fuck it is. It's very simple and it's much better than first past the post. Sure it's not perfect but perfect is not going to happen not when people are so dumb that they vote against their own interests simply because a washed up TV star said things they wanted to hear.
Approval is better than Ranked Choice at this. And it lacks the weaknesses of RCV. Literally the only major change from FPTP is that you can vote for as many candidates as you'd like on your ballot. No spoiler effect because there's nothing to spoil. Strategic voting isn't remotely as bad either. RCV is in many cases a step up from FPTP (but not always and the more voters actually understand it the worse it gets) but it's still a bad solution to the problem.
I'd support STAR over RCV because it's mathematically better but my go to is Approval, mostly because of the specific issue with STAR you've pointed out - it's more complicated to explain, vote under and report on than FPTP or Approval.
The thing is, Ranked Choice is broken in dozens of ways. It's actually more broken than First Past the Post.
It gives bad results that do not match the lies that it's advocates tell, because FairVote lies their asses off about the system.
Fuck, it fails the Monotonicity Criteria.
I'll explain this one simply. The Monotonicity Criteria says more support for Candidate A should increase the chances that Candidate A wins. Under Ranked Choice, listing Candidate A first can cause Candidate C to win.
That and the insecurity around counting make Ranked Choice a fucking stupid idea. It was a bad system when invented and it's not gotten any better.
France has a runoff for president
I'd take that as a confession to being complicit whenever we get to the US equivalent of the Nuremberg trials.
Well, Nuremberg was the heart of Nazi rule, so I guess the US version will be at Mar-a-Lago.
Hey, look, it's [90% of the people I argued with on Lemmy before election day]!
And it's now 90% quieter. Hmmm.
Holy shit what a dumb take
Russian stooge says what?
Why re-elect genocide when you can elect double genocide with a side of imperialism..
Accelerationism will never work. Whenever there's a crisis, the poor will suffer and the rich will escape.
Crisis is opportunity for people with excessive wealth. For the rest of us it's a crapshoot for survival.
Yeah, didn't you hear the news, Gaza is saved!
Oh wait...
I've been told by more than one person on Lemmy that not only is it totally not the same thing as genocide, but that genocide is much worse.
It’s hard to tell from just this one tweet, but this guy seems like he is actively trying to out-stupid trump.
"Yeah Trump is bad, but we can fight him from the underground we're forced to occupy by the threat of execution or exile, but just imagine the moral bad fee fees we'd have to endure if we elected Kamala! That would be worse!"
JFC....
Earth calling nutjob, Earth calling nutjob do you copy? Don't come back. Stay up there.
Trump literally wants to remove 2 million Palestinians, the literal definition of genocide. So how's that going Jill Stein and protest non voters?
"but he's going to relocate them...."
Ah yes, move these genocided people's into a little bit of land probably occupied by other people. We've never done that before. And if we have there weren't any problems with it.
/literally Israel-palestine history
I've seen idiots around here claim that ethnic cleansing is separate and somehow better than a genocide, and THEN unironically link the UN definition which literally says in the first paragraph that ethnic cleansing and genocide are NOT considered to be separate.
And they get a vote. Le sigh.
Does it make you feel bigger making fun of people who have no representation in government?
Does it make them feel bigger contributing to forced relocation of Palestinians? And at home, mass deportation? Hope they feel really good about themselves.
Legit 0 IQ take, holy shit
155 things (and counting) Trump has done that Harris would not have done. And that's just in the last 21 days:
[email protected]
i'd say that pretty much everything the shitstain has done, harris wouldn't have. everything
"I refuse to believe that leopards are eating my face."
No. I appreciate the sentiment but don’t even give this guy that sardonic out. “I want you all to let the leopards to eat your face. I want you to be happy with it.” That’s what he’s saying.
Fuck Jill Stein and every additional piece of shit who promotes her.
Watch this hour long interview Mehdi Hasan did with her. She's fucking horrible and I'm glad the finest interviewer of our time got an hour to push her on her bullshit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIcZkqf9GRo
The Green party is fucking worthless.
Especially with Jill "any attention is good attention, have you heard my album?" Stein at the lead. She doesn't want a political platform she just wants a taller soapbox to shout from and act smug from.
It literally always has been.
I don't think mutual aid and civil disobedience is going to stop things like the $7.4B arms sale to Israel that was announced earlier this week. But surely that is part of this acceptable compromise the Greens made?
It absolutely could but yeah it’s not going to since US activists will likely be more focused in democratic threats for the time being.
This is actually an argument I can’t remember anyone making—that the numerous crimes and atrocities the Trump administration would execute in relation to other issues and communities would distract focus from Palestinian liberation and enable further ethnic cleansing. Maybe that would have been more convincing to Harris skeptics but I don’t know.
Tell me for what other reason does a "Green Party" fringe candidate from America fraternize with a round table consisting of the likes of Michael Flynn, Vladimir Putin, and Dmitry Peskov in Moscow? Lmao. Suckers.
I and many others have been calling out Stein's bullshit for well over a decade.
Lol is this real? I've never seen a real person make that argument.
I assume they are just not-so-secretly endorsing Trump. Like, nobody is that dumb.
Are they sincere accelerationists, or is that another mask for “it’ll help Putin and I’ll get Gazprom shares”?
Oh.. My bad, I thought the "green" meant nature...
I guess that "Dolla dolla bill y'all party" doesn't have the same ring.
Absolutely the most clueless fucking thing I've ever read. Are they not paying attention to what's happening?
Wait, did you actually believe that the Green Party cared about people or even the country? 🤡
He has yet to stop the genocide for that to hold a colander' worth of water.
In fact, he wants to take over Gaza and kick ALL the Palestinians out. And people STILL make the argument that a vote NOT for Kamala was somehow opposing genocide. It was never on referendum, for any of the candidates.
A row of clown emojis is the only appropriate response.
Now that's some medical-grade copium.
Trump’s genocide comes with a golf course and resort for wealthy white people, and maybe an Arab or two if they pay enough money to the geriatric dementia patient in the whitehouse.
BluEmAgA!
This argument boils down to, "I want to be told there isn't a genocide while there still is. I just want the media gone and the watching orgs defunded and threatened so that I don't hear about it. Yes it's still happening at full speed... yes, it's probably even worse now... but I would have heard about it everyday with Harris. With trump, the news is talking about the gulf of America, so I don't have to see it anymore."
No, the argument is about presenting oneself as having superior morals regardless of real world outcomes.
Consequences don’t matter, only adhering radical ideology.
"To cut off your own nose to spite the face" is the only thing that comes to mind here.
You're never going to overcome the moral stain of instead voting for someone who also supports genocide, and works to take people's human rights away, and wants to destroy everything from the public education system to humanitarian causes, and wants to drill for oil everywhere and fill the skies with smoke, and and and and.
Interesting. I really wonder how Ralph Nader is reacting to this. I can't imagine he'd be very proud of this guy. Then again, he cut out of the party after his second run for a reason.
Literally only the mental cases speak this way. By mental cases I mean the people that want destruction of a country for their own greedy reasons instead of building the country to what it once was.
Least purity-testing leftist
Fuck them. Hiding behind such a horrible thing to support trump.
It's absurd for leftists to be talking about Jill Stein when we could be arguing about Hillary Clinton instead. The point is to narrow our coalition till it's pure. (and too small to get their way on pizza toppings)
This.
The most basic rule of practical politics is that you have to make deals.
To bad politics have been made impractical.
I don't know what you mean by "impractical."
Look at it this way. It's WW2 and the Nazis have already taken most of Europe including Poland and France.
Are you going to sit on your hands and let Hitler get everything he wants because the US and England are racist?
I get your point but its not because of that. The reasons are varied why Trump won but primarily its because ~70% of the population failed to prevent him from winning.
I'm not responsible for any of this shit. I did not sign up to being born. I did not sign up for a leftist revolution where I die a martyr to a doomed cause so left accellerationists can circle jerk over my corpse as they LARP.
I'm going to hunker down, try to survive. Though admittedly even if I do make it to the end of this shit show my cynicism towards the average person will never go away.
So, you're saying you're part of the 70% that did nothing, and seeing what's going on, you intend to do more nothing.
I did stuff before the election like canvass and would have been enthusiastic to do more had Harris won.
But yeah... my motivation is in the core of the earth now... I can barely motivate myself to do basic upkeep in my own life now a days let alone putting effort externally.
https://www.npr.org/2018/01/15/577371750/they-didn-t-want-me-there-remembering-the-terror-of-school-integration
Not everyone gets the luxury of sitting it out.
But why didn't they pander to my beliefs?
If this is the kind of mental illness floating on the left. strap up and strap in, The Republicans will never lose an election again. Even if they are legit
This is so bad it reminds me of the conspiracy theory that Just Stop Oil is actually run by the Oil corpos, with the aim of being so distasteful they turn people against enviornmentalism.
He's got every flag in his bio except for the US. Who does this guy work for, exactly?
Not even a month...
I'm glad Trump isn't doing any genocide. /s
shut the fuck up vladimir
🤡
I‘m pretty sure the history books will show mercy with her.
Oh thank God that isn't actually what he said.
what? it’s literally a real tweet https://lightbrd.com/CallForCongress/status/1889238467047243954
I meant I thought he literally said "yeah we are the bad guys"
dems stay winning once again.
Seems like a good place to leave my final thought on this matter. Electing anyone other than trump or kamala would have sent an undeniable message of "NO!" To the current establishment. The Democrats do whatever they please just look at how they treated Bernie in 2015, Trump was afraid of Bernie! Meanwhile the Republicans make up stories about "what they want to do is the most patriotic!" Then give massive tax cuts to people that already have more than enough money and work to actually create jobs, but then they have less money so they leave their business minimally staffed with part time crew, and a single over worked manager that's on salary and works 60+hrs a week. At this late in their game of granting themselves political freedoms like assigning any idiot as any agency head they want(for a start! How big is this constitutional crisis gonna get? Cuz that's how far the Democrats have been over reaching already since there's no check or balance against it!), it's about sending a message that we are still the owners of this country, they are just the current management, and are very replaceable just as they have made sure all of us feel in our lives. Abandoning the parties that just kept doing the same thing over and over making everything worse every time, and actually electing someone that wasn't who the Democrats or Republicans wanted, would have actually changed things, no matter if congress didn't work with them, we can't actually change things to be more intelligently designed in this country when special interests like billionaires have so damn much money, and money is legally protected as free speech, rejecting their candidate rejects theur money as free speecg. Keep electing Democrats and Republicans and things WILL get worse, currently it's a tug of war where one parties infected bandage of a solution gets applied and it seems like things are better for their constituents, only for the positive affects to wear off shortly after the other party takes office, no one sees the issue is bad policy that only makes things worse in the long run, they only see things got better for a stretch then the midterms happened. They have cities fighting rural populations for control of systems the citizens have no idea how they work, because all they do is further tighten the leash around our neck while pretending to be on our side. We failed to put our foot down as a country after Democrats had control of the government but refused to install checks and balances against executive orders, refused to touch Roe V Wade, and simply expected the power would revert to them again. We failed when the Democrats and Republicans worked together to manufacturer outrage from us to get elected, and then never even brought things to a vote so we could see publicly who stands against change. The citizens failed and should feel thoroughly ashamed for their actions. I have nothing more to say on the last election.
Holy wall of text Batman! Is there a tldr of this?
Dude just missed the entire Republican strategy...
...do fucking nothing and blame everything on Dems. Then get the trifecta and do whatever the fuck they want.
This has been building up momentum for years. Now that they have the trifecta there is little that the Dems can do within the bounds of the system except drag their feet and file lawsuits.
Viewed from this perspective, the dems have been fighting to hold the line back from fascists for decades and just barely doing so by holding narrow majorities and at least one corner of power.
I'm not convinced that Ron Paul's reddit phenomenon in 2008 wasn't a practice run for Trump. The whole thing just seems so weird in retrospect.
Y'all wanna blame anyone but the Dems for their shitty campaign. Last time I checked adding all the green party votes to the Democrats wouldn't have changed the outcome.
Both things are true. Dems ran a campaign they didn't care to win but thought they were owed and Stein is a terrible leader welding the green party like a dog she's neglecting because she thinks it makes her look more responsible.
I can agree with that 🤝
Why blame the better of two bad options?
Be honest and blame both bad options.
(I'm not referring to the greens here, they aren't a real option)
Don't get me wrong I hate trump and the Republicans too. I blame the Dems because they manage to lose to Republicans. Beating them should be ridiculously easily but they always find a way to loose or not have enough votes to do the good things they promise. Every election they move further to the right. If we had an actual left wing party and not controlled opposition we wouldn't be in this situation.
For sure, I'm just saying that the actual fascists should always get the majority of the blame, even if it's pathetic for their rivals to fail to prevent their win.
I can agree with that. 🤝 Fuck trump punch Nazis
Messaging matters. There were multiple Republican and Russian backed propaganda campaigns to pin Israel's genocide on Harris, and urged people to abstain from voting. So it's more than just the 3rd party votes that are potentially missing from the tally.
Damn, sucks that Harris could do literally nothing to push back on the allegations that she was complicit in the genocide.
Damn, she didn't do shit about allegations that she unhinges her jaw and swallows puppies whole either.
While her statement is over reaching, she does have a valid point. It will be easier to raise a resistance against trump than harris. This of course benefits her the most if that resistance can vote for her and her party. But it is still a valid point among the spin.
Not sure how when the media, social media, including the new tech (ai), is all in the pocket of trump (or vise versa it doesn’t really matter).
We might have decades of authoritarian rule on our hands. I don’t think sacrificing our neighbors was particularly worth the hope that somehow fascists are easier to fight than liberals. Maybe if you’re a certain demographic. For the rest of us? Fucked.
Not so much easier to fight, but easier to wake up that large demographic you mention to get them to fight.
I don't think Jason Call goes by "she". Or are you referring to some statement by Jill Stein?
I just read poorly.
It will not be easier. I voted Harris. I was a Bernie supporter. My motivation to fight has never been lower. It is in the core of the earth.
My hatred of people responsible for Trump's victory is extremely intense. The idea of unifying with any of them, including the leftist abstainers, is absurd.
Sure, I hate the Trump voters far more, but the abstainers are also my enemy.
Exactly this. People don't understand that if you're at the point where your only option is protesting in the street then you've already lost. I'm sure the Palestinians really do appreciate us standing around with a sign for a couple of hours.
Maybe glue your hands to the pavement and stop traffic, that'll really help them.
If it comes to down them or literal fascists, I'll do what they didn't have the moral backbone to do, and side with people I think are completely spineless, amoral, genocidal cunts to avert a worse situation.
In every other case, they can go fuck themselves.
I respect pragmatism but I just don't have it in me anymore. Part of me is now fueled by a burning spite towards these people so intense I want to go down with the ship. Contributing to a leftist victory now means I validate these accelerationist's desires to drag electoralists into extreme danger for their stupid delusion of a grand revolution or whatever the fuck. One that in the end is likely doomed anyway because we are up against a government that could turn us all into a bloody mist cloud instantly with its military.
Another other part of me wants to forgive them so I no longer feel hatred for most of my fellow Americans. I miss not being a misanthrope. I miss not being surrounded by evil people.
And of course and third part of me is blackpilled since climate change is going to get worse because of Trump and make it kind of not matter anyway.
IDK man. I'm tired.
Yeah libs are suddenly waking up to all kinds of problems. They just found out that a genocide started on inauguration day.
Wait, so how is letting Trump get elected a win for those who oppose genocide?
Opposing genocide is a losing battle to begin with. A political movement organized around a policy, changing policy was resolutely rejected, and the movement was crushed.
It would be more accurate to say letting Trump win was preferred over opposing genocide than the other way around.
This but it's the green party whistling at genocide under Trump because they get to LARP hunger games on their social media accounts now.
I think I've already asked you this and you've already refused to answer, but I'll ask again just in case:
If I challenged you to send an email to a prominent person- a politician, a celebrity, a business leader- asking them to use their power to speak to the media in order to speak on behalf of Palestinians every time you brought up the election, would you do it?
no one here is cheering genocide.
i wasn’t even shaming voters, i was shaming leadership and saying “wow i sure wish trump wasn’t elected”
it’s clear you have more emotional investment in snarky internet comebacks than any other value you may genuinely hold. get back to us when you can reprioritize your shit.
Socialist tend to be
i mean i disagree but have an upvote for at least being honest about your experience and positions.
i was getting sick of all the accelerationist people screaming “lib” at me for daring to be a tad upset that trump is the president and the multipartisan means by which we got here.
https://lemmy.ml/post/25756796?scrollToComments=true
The Harris campaign didn't want my vote so I didn't give it to them. The Harris campaign was fine with losing as long as the genocide could continue.
The genocide was more important to them than beating trump. Think about that before you tell me I should've voted blue.
Genocide Joe stans seething over at .world
I missed you guys! Now after the ethnic cleansing are you going to stay at the Trump Hotel in Gaza or the Trump Resort? It will have golf!
Reasonable people are opposing this genocide instead of smugly cheering it on.
Well, when Trump makes it worse by trying to kick the Palestinians out and take over the Gaza strip himself, you can stay at home and feel smug about keeping a woman out of the oval office.
Don't you see? Having the US go from sponsor to active participant in the genocide is actually better than giving a cogent and competent woman the oval office.
/s
I can walk and chew gum.
Give me a fucking break. You people are just the goddamned worst.
Should have considred that before OP went on his genocide apologia tirade.
Great point.
Those literally don't exist, what are you talking about?
Check the other replies.
I'll ask you what I already asked someone else. I wonder if you'll take me up on it: If I challenged you to send an email to a prominent person- a politician, a celebrity, a business leader- asking them to use their power to speak to the media in order to speak on behalf of Palestinians every time you brought up the election, would you do it?
No that would be ineffective.
I directly fund pro Palestinian journalists and content creators.
Talking to the media on a regular basis about what is happening in Palestine is ineffective? So it would be more effective to let them control the narrative? It would be more effective to not keep people informed? You really believe that? Because the near total lack of reporting on the genocide going on in Sudan sure doesn't seem to be helping matters there. Especially since I've had to let more than one person on Lemmy know that yes, there is a genocide going on in Sudan even if they don't want to know about any genocide but the single one they are laser-focused on.
I am trying to get people to do the bare minimum of taking action beyond just pointing fingers at each other and accusing each other of supporting genocide. I guess you would prefer they continue to do nothing but that?