How tankies and MAGAts view the Ukraine war
I hate how “anti-war” has been hijacked by these people to mean, let imperialist countries invade whoever they want with no consequences. (in the case of tankies, any imperialist country that isn’t in NATO).
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If Russia stops fighting there would be no war. If Ukraine stops fighting there would be no Ukraine.
At this stage, since they have fought so well, I'd guess there would just be a much smaller, much weaker Ukraine.
We will likely see this happen now Trump is president. He is too egotistical to not take revenge on them for not playing along with his quid pro quo back in 2019.
The Ukrainian flags in republican yards never meant a thing... They sold Ukraine out at the polls.
That includes only battlefield context. Truth is Russia will at the very best economically and politically fall into a 3rd world country level the moment it loses the war. More probably dissolve into smaller states = there would be no Russia as we know it today anymore.
Good. After what they've done, they don't deserve to exist as a nation anymore.
Yeah. Let US the saint be world's boss. Never killed a fly anyway.
Literally repeating US State Dept. talking points.
This guy floating up to the sky when US State Department says that gravity is real
… and the WMD’s will be found any day now in Iraq General Powell.
I don't think you understood the joke. Do you know the saying about a broken clock?
Do you do anything besides shitpost and deliberately misinterpret people?
Kicking the dogs passes the time.
And? The saying was popular before Blinken's speech btw.
I can’t find an earlier source. And it’s not accurate:
Remember that the original Canadian intent of the UN Peacekeepers was that they would forcibly create and enforce peace.
It was the USSR and the USA that objected to the concept.
Similarly if most countries have a mutual defence pact, no one country will be able to invade another without being at war with literally the whole world.
I'm afraid that mutual defense isn't as iron clad as you think. If Article 5 of NATO ever gets triggered you'll get a masterclass on weaseling out of obligations. It's ironic because Ukraine may already be receiving the kind of support a full NATO member is entitled to.
Unfortunately with Trump the US will try to weasel their way out. Europe knows too well what happens.
This does seem likely with Trump... but he's also in bed with the military-industrial complex, which never misses a chance to get contracts.
It only works if you actually commit to it.
But imagine the implications if a country did not commit to it (bar an obvious one like Hungary or Turkey). They’ll likely get sanctioned, probably will have trouble entering any useful alliances for the next decade or so because no one trusts them anymore.
If one didn't, sure. But what happens when NATO as a whole doesn't defend Poland? What's Poland going to do? Or even just Trump's US?
The trick is that (Eastern) Europe is filled with NATO troops and material from all countries. You would need an extremely nasty retreat of these troops if you do not support (say) Poland. Also at the moment (officially) the US has stationed nuclear weapons in 6 European countries, and there are very likely more also in the form of submarines that are not known to the public. Retreating means leaving those weapons in Russian hands. Then again, maybe Trump does not care about that.
Well ideally if you don't want to be a part of an agreement, you just tell the people you made the agreement with that you are no longer a part of it.
If you do so amicably, parties may be fine with it it may not have bad effects. If you wait till one of those counties is being invaded and back out, it likely would not end amicably, and with them having to switch over to a wartime economy, they may cut all trade moving forward with the member who screwed them over. Could cost the U.S. trillions in trade annually.
Aka it would be more profitable to support your allies, or get out of the agreement early, but that doesn't guarantee counties don't say... Why should we trade with someone who would hang us out to dry? And it hurts our economy anyway.
Article 5 was triggered by 9/11 and is the reason everyone followed America into Afghanistan
Ww1
Ireland has peacekeepers between Israel and Lebanon right now. They wouldn't be there if "create peace" was one of the missions.
Peace must exist, however briefly, and then the peacekeepers place themselves in harm's way to keep the peace.
Extend the mission to militarily "create peace" and suddenly you are just NATO/USA. How can either side trust a peace that was enforced upon them and not call it a defeat, whose borders are disputed for eternity? Every nationalist who wants to stir sentiment can just say "look what the British/Americans/UN imposed on us". Outside forces drawing borders is pretty much the cause of 90% of warfare, civil and otherwise, for the last 80 years.
A Canadian was also the principal author of the UN declaration on human rights, and another was the reason NATO is a political as well as military alliance. We just keep winning!
I don’t understand how other communists can defend Russia at this point. It feels to me like most of them forget that Russia is no longer a communist country.
They’re capitalists. Putin is often using christo-fascist tactics. He’s also pushing for Russian imperialism in very capitalistic ways. Also, Russia was 100 percent the agitators here.
Just because it challenges US worldwide hegemony doesn’t automatically make it good, boys.
Tankies might as well be called CINOs — communists in name only. Their defining feature is reverence towards authoritarian leaders. They revere Putin and Xi as “strong” leaders and completely ignore how little their regimes have in common with the socialist workers paradise Marx envisioned.
My favorite is when they argue that China has billionaires and private property and a stock market because Marx said you have to go through capitalism to get to communism. Which... doesn't somehow also apply to the West?
Gee I wonder who you could be referring to mmmmhhh gee I really wonder.
Tankies?
Sorry I dropped the /s somewhere
What makes you say they don't think it applies to the West? I don't follow your logic there.
Because if you tell them China is just as capitalist as the West, they tell you it absolutely isn't and is a communist country.
Ok but China is absolutely not as capitalist as the west, and that’s an insane thing to say.
I'd buy that line if China wasn't integrating those large businesses (albeit slowly) into the public sector, something the west is not doing, but rather moving to deregulate more and more (Thanks Trump! /s)
And yet it's still not a communist country. I get that you want it to be a communist country, but it isn't.
You won't see me argue that China is communist, it's socialist as it stands now with the stated goal of becoming communist
I'll stick with "Cosplay Commies".
I especially despise how Putin and Xi were seen as 'strong' leaders, but when shit hit the fan in the last 5 years, they just hid away from repercussions
Do you know what you've done!? You've summoned him! He's like Beetlejuice, say three Marxist terms and he appears. Combie will be here soon.
Seriously. Those dumb Iraqis who fought back deserved to die.
I'm really curious how or why it works. Do they hate US so much that anyone against the US seems a hero to them, despite being off the same kind but pretending to be a communist/socialist?
I am curious about this as well. At least in some cases, it seems to be due to “alternate facts”, e.g., https://lemmy.ca/comment/13198294
Are they saying that the U.S. was preparing Ukraine for war in 2014... Which Russia had started moving their forces in 2013 and started the invasion in February of 2014. It's like how people try to say "well Russia wouldn't have invaded Ukraine if Trump had still been president"... When Russia mobilized their troops and equipment and marched them there for the invasion while Trump was still President.
Damn, that's alternate as fuck 🤢
That was an… interesting read 😅
That's exactly the reason (even if they don't 100% admit it) for the communist parties in my country.
A surprising portion of people in the northern hemisphere think that a person having lots of money is literally exactly the same thing as a person having lots of blessings from [deity]. They see that Russia is run by oligarchs, and that since those oligarchs command lots of currency, they are inherently chosen by [diety] to always be correct.
Who thinks that? Are we talking about the old Pharaoh's of Egypt?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosperity_theology
I notice this to be most prevalent amongst the Russian Orthodox people I know as well as Evangelical Christians, but it’s not limited to those.
I'd say these two probably think something along those lines...
Okay.. so this makes me wonder where the artwork came from before they put words over it. That donkey is jacked and has a very bright smile for a farm animal. Do you think the person who did the artwork had no idea what they were going to write over it, or just that they've got some closeted desires they haven't figured out how to discuss openly yet?
Maybe it's a Divine Donkey lol
I'm guessing it's clip art.
There is rarely, if ever, support for Putin. What is more typical is a recognition the USSR was a better entity than both what it replaced and what replaced it. So there is usually the connection that the US is the reason Russia is the way it is, which is usually lauded as 'USA bad'.
So even though America was the global superpower after the fall of the USSR: Putin, (or at least someone like him), was wanted in power. 'Keep rootin for Putin' wasn't just a pundit book 20 years ago.
All in all when the goal is eradicating communism at all costs, you wind up with war mongering right wingers in their stead: and that's the perspective every communist I have interacted with has come from.
It's like their version of STOP RESISTING.
My Mom said Russia had to attack Ukraine, because they were trying to join NATO. I asked why she thinks Ukraine was trying to join NATO. I'm still digging for a bedrock of logic.
Part of the problem with game theory and finding a “bedrock of logic” is that game theoretical analysis is often recursive. It’s not a stack of prepositions and conclusions; it’s often a loop. Sort of like a resonance structure. I’ve got my gun aimed at you because your gun is aimed at me because my gun is aimed at you … recursively forever.
My understanding is that the US/NATO and the USSR/Russia, ie the two sides of the Cold War, have maintained a sense of peace and security by maintaining a buffer between the two sides. A buffer of distance, which is relevant because it relates to the time it takes nuclear weapons to travel from one adversarial territory to the other.
The Cuban Missile Crisis was basically caused because Cuba was too close to the USA for nuclear missiles to be stored in a way that the balance of MAD could be maintained.
The public declaration (by Kamala Harris, incidentally) that Ukraine would join NATO is a violation of a promise made by Reagan that NATO would not extend to the border of Russia.
It’s similar to the USSR’s attempt to install nuclear missiles in Cuba, in the sense that it’s simply too close.
That’s my understanding of the motivation behind Russia’s invasion. I’m quite new to all this though.
So it’s less like “Stop resisting!” and more like “Drop the gun!”
My suspicion is that MAD overall is diminishing in its power to stabilize the world militarily, as a result of new military technologies coming into play (space-based weapons, drones, AI, hypersonic missiles, iron dome scenarios) as well as more and more nuclear powers coming online, and the increasing probability of nuclear weapons falling into the hands of non-state actors.
And finally there’s China’s overall rise toward the role of hegemonic power.
The Cold War basically organized itself (and hence organized the influences that minimized military action) around two major powers. Now there’s a third major power that’s rapidly accelerating toward becoming the major power. It’s changing all the equations that balanced out in the 1970s, 80s, etc.
The reason Ukraine wanted to join NATO is that Russia already had occupied Crimea and part of Georgia before. All that after Ukraine gave up all the nukes they still had from USSR times. Ukraine was not a threat to Russia before the occupation of Crimea.
Distance is really not much of a factor any more, and hasn't been for a long time. Kaliningrad and St. Petersburg can already be reached by submarine launched cruise missiles in less than 15 minutes (conservative estimate). And let's face it, with MAD being a thing, any kind of nuclear strike is likely to escalate into all-out nuclear annihilation, anyway. This makes any attempt at overwhelming the opponent a losing proposition. So in that sense nothing has changed since, oh, the mid-1970s?
Then there is the argument that Russia doesn't want a long shared border with NATO. Guess what, their aggression has caused Finland and Sweden to join NATO, which has only added to their shared border with NATO. That they already had with Poland and the Baltic states (there is no treaty nor official document prohibiting NATO expansion).
And finally, how hard is it to understand that NATO is a defensive alliance? It is neither politically geared to nor militarily capable of mounting a conquest of Russia. The fact that so many of Russia's neighbors are eager to join the alliance should be a pretty strong hint as to why it needs to exist in the first place. It is Russia that cannot be trusted, not NATO. And you can't make your neighbor "drop the gun" in their own house. The Ukrainians were stupid enough already to return their nuclear arsenal to Russia in return for explicit security guarantees. What a mistake that was.
Don't even get me started on how China is criminally underrated as a manifest threat to world peace...
The so-called Cuban Missile Crisis was caused by Kennedy moving nuclear missiles into Turkey, within striking range of the USSR. It never would have happened if Kennedy hadn't decided to start swinging his dick around.
I don't even know what they (western tankies) get from this. Average dumbass Russian only cares about his ass, and the pretended "glory". There is no "Conservative brotherhood which spans across the ocean". They don't speak your language, they don't have the same problem, and they hate YOU with passion, because on average, they are racist and dumb.
So my only hypothesis is that tankies think (??) that by going "contrarian" they show how smart they are, and that "did the research" lol.
No, it's because "America bad". There's a lot of reasons to hate America, and the drip feeding of munitions to Ukraine is one of them. I think we should have been sending everything from the start with the only restriction being no hitting civilian targets. A million 155 shells a week. Tomahawks. Predator drones. Hell, even F-15s. I agree, end the war, but end it in a Ukrainian victory with their borders restored.
It's even worse than that. It's "America bad, therefore Russia good." As if there has to be some sort of cosmic balance.
Got me laughing, very true observation
Would have been nice to send a message to Vlad on day 1.
"Turnabout is fair play"
The best way to minimize the overall violence of a fight is to use enough force in the first moments to end the fight.
Generally speaking. Maybe.
There was never any chance of Ukrainian victory. Russia is not that weak and everyone knew it from the start.
But arming ukrainians and sending them to die weakens Russia, so the US likes that. It's all a game, and none of it was ever in the interest of Ukraine nor its people.
Kyiv in three days!
I had a reply for a similar comment; trying to link it here, to avoid copy-pasting: https://lemmy.ml/post/23582488/15569369
I'm sure you'll just dismiss this all as Western Imperialist propaganda since it disagrees with your worldview, but:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Kyiv_convoy#Three_day_war_plan
https://metro.co.uk/2023/02/24/putin-thought-he-could-capture-kyiv-in-three-days-leaked-docs-claim-18342384/
Of course, in public, Putin was much more pragmatic.
He said it would be two weeks.
https://time.com/3259699/putin-boast-kiev-2-weeks/
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/02/putin-russian-forces-could-conquer-ukraine-capital-kiev-fortnight
So would you prefer, "Kyiv in two weeks?" I'll go with that. Exactly the same stupid idea.
Seems to me that Ukraine still exists as a country and that wouldn't be the case if not for international support.
Are you hoping for a restoration of the Soviet Union? Any other countries on your list that don't deserve to exist?
Russia has a long and proud history of losing to "smaller, weaker " countries. Russo Japanese war, WW1, Polish Soviet war of 1919, the winter war, Afghanistan, Chechen war until they paid homage to the Kadyrovs. there's no reason to think there was never a chance at Ukrainian victory. Russia fumbles the bag plenty. But I get it. America bad so Russia stonk and good.
I think this kinda reductionist bs abolishes any kind of discussion. What does this have to do with anything? Where did I say such things?
Right there. You said it right there And you're changing the subject. Russian victory was never a forgone conclusion. History has shown us that.
Yet 3 years later Russia still has not completed its objectives, took its eye off Syria, and needs troops & ammo from North Korea.
And all it took was 1,000,000 dead Ukrainians!
Murdered by Russian. So tell me, in this peace of yours, who gets what and why?
You're blaming them for defending themselves???
Tankies entire world view is formed around hating the US.
They will glorify terrible regimes that literally commit genocides and straight up murder thousands of innocents just because that regime is in opposition to US influence.
They use left wing language, but they do not care about leftist issues. They do not care about disabled people getting focibly euthanised, about anyone who dares critique the regime being forcibly silenced, about minorities being genocided (unless the US or NATO does it), that their “socialist states” literally have billionaires while others starve. They think it’s all US propaganda. (Alternatively, they’ll admit part of it and say it’s for the greater good).
A much simpler way of putting that second picture is: " . . . but that doesn't mean you have to support another empire."
Do you wish someone supported Iraq against America?
By the usual tankie logic, Iraq should have just given up. They had no chance to win the war.
You lack nuance.
You can't see your own hypocrisy here at all and it's rich af.
I'm not a tankie, but I probably am what everyone in this thread is calling a "tankie", so here's my answer:
Yes, it is extremely bad that Russia invaded Ukraine. The ideal scenario would have been Ukraine quickly repelling the invasion when it happened. But we don't live in magic fantasy world where everyone gets what they deserve. We live in the real world, where Ukraine cannot possibly defeat Russia in a war. The option which saves the most Ukrainian lives is a negotiated peace, with Russia getting much more of what they want than we would like.
All that is achieved by pouring more weapons into Ukraine is prolonging the meatgrinder for years, wiping out an entire generation of Ukrainians and risking a global nuclear war.
Ukraine had a negotiated peace before the 2022 invasion, after the 2014 invasion. Why would a 2025 negotiated peace be any more reliable?
Just „take your land“?
Looks to me also like „destroy your culture“ and „torture, maim, rape and kill your friends and family“.
Don't forget... They broke into your house, took over your living room, killed 2 of your family members in there and said "Let's make an election". Surprisingly, they won the election in your living room, because dead people can't vote and they were allowed to vote, too.
It's more like you fight your roommate and his friends come over to bully you. You get some weapon once in a while through the window. Still you are on your own vs 10. Also from outside they instruct you to use your young children to fight.
You forgot the person standing to the other side saying, "But what about that time when America...!?"
I know it's not relevant but it's funny (and sad) how you can replace the two flags with Israel and Palestine and it still works.
Only switch the Ukraine guy with a palastinian child.
And its not MAGAts and tankies backing it but, neolibs and centrist conservatives (with the MAGAts as well).
It's so bizarre to see those old Soldiers of Fortune readers, with their "Better dead than red" tee shirts, all now rooting for Russia.
Are you aware the Biden administration hasn’t spoken to Putin’s staff in two years?
Is there, in your analogy, a macho, straight, totally non anal-sex-related kind of dignity in that refusal to communicate with a nuclear adversary?
I just listened to Tucker Carlson interview Sergei Lavrov. Is that me just going to town on Putin’s veiny cock? Is this whole thing just a big revealer of who’s really gay and who’s not?
Thanks for giving us ample reason to not care about your opinions.
Yes. You are going to town on his weiny cock.
perfectly agree with the meme, that said I've tried to make the same argument to people IRL and their response usually is "well Ukraine provoked them by trying to join NATO" and being the absolute dumbass that I am, I can never come up with a decent answer on the spot.
does anyone have a cool one liner to use or am I stuck with having to explain the various geopolitical issues
The idea of Ukraine joining NATO was literally unimaginable before Russian aggression. After the fall of the soviet union there were multiple agreements like the Declaration of State Sovereignty of Ukraine and Budapest Memorandum that basically established Ukraine as a sovereign and neutral nation under the protection of the west and east. Even after Russian interventions in Ukraine and finally the taking of Crimea, NATO members like Germany were still vocal about never letting Ukraine in.
Also if Russia truly cared about NATO expansion, how come we barely hear anything about Finland and Sweeden? I occasionally even forget they're a part of it now.
In the case of Finland, it's because they kicked Russia's ass last time and they would do it again.
They just have to announce that they've cloned Simo Häyhä and Russia won't even look at them sideways.
We lost, both times.
I sometimes think that it was exactly because they expected things to go as they did. If they let Ukraine in, they would need to
weasel out of helpinghelp, after allShows how little u know. Ukraine literally put NATO into the constitution prior to 2022.
Then zelensky tried to get nuclear weapons.
Again - don't follow msm, they have an agenda.
And you surely don't have an agenda.
That's why you come here with lies lmao
I don't care about Ukraine. I don't want my money going into military to support a country that has universal health care while I still do t have universal health care.
Fund universal healthcare, not Ukraine or Israel.
UHC is cheaper than the current US healthcare system. You can literally have both.
Funding for Ukraine isn't holding up UHC. Bad politicians are.
Someone needs to force their hand, if you just give them what they want anyways, there is no reason for them to do anything for u
Not sure punishing Ukrainians who are being raped and murdered in their own homes forces their hand in any way whatsoever. Seems like the least efficient way to do it.
I think you need to learn how the Military-Industrial Complex works, because if weapons aren't going to Ukraine, and it sounds like they won't, you still won't get your socialized medicine. Especially not in an oligarchical fascist dictatorship.
We the people should get stubborn and refuse to support the goals of military industrial complex as long as they keep refusing us our goals.
I get absolutely nothing from Israel achieving it's goals of killing brown neighboring people and clearing space for themselves. Nothing.
Ukraine - u know what! I don't care about it. Just cut a deal for mutual management of Ukraine and equal economic access. I don't care about Ukraine winning or Ukraine being a strong country in eastern Europe. I do not care. It's outside of my interests as a private citizen, only military industrial complex wants that war.
What are you doing to get "we the people" to do that other than arguing on the internet?
Fair, but it misses the trees for the forest. The US already pays WAY more for healthcare than any other country. The money is literally there, just mismanaged. While I feel your frustration, simply cutting aid to allied countries won't change anything domestically.
They are not allied countries for me.
Israel is a genocidal regime and Ukraine is just a shithole in eastern Europe.
I don't need these as allies.
I get absolutely nothing, 0 from funding them. Cut them
Really? You're going to complain about one country's genocide and justify another in the same sentence? At least be consistent
Okay so DO something about YOUR healthcare then.
Citation needed.
The Ukranian constitution has no amendments even mentioning NATO.
And Zelenky demanding nuclear weapons is a recent development. So not "tried" but "trying right now". Not even the Russians claimed such prior.
And I don't watch MSNBC or whatever else "msm" is supposed to be. Bold of you to assume I not only watch American news, but also a specific broadcaster. That's got to be like a less than 50% chance.
MSM is mainstream media rather than a broadcaster. I actually hear it a lot from conservatives who are somehow convinced that Fox News isn't mainstream media despite being the USA's most watched network.
Everyone knows that's how becoming a NATO member works!
The EU works that way too! You tell them you want to join, make it super official that you pretty please want to join, and then you're in!
The husband who beats his wife analogy might work. "She deserved it, she thought about going to the police" Another thing, even if it was predictable doesn't make it wrong to help Ukraine no matter what.
These are the same people who support Trump and putin soooo
It basically comes down to this: being a sovereign nation means being allowed to choose your own alliances.
Calling it a "provocation" is denying Ukraine sovereignty over their own country.
Which is fundamental misunderstanding of international politics according to Political Realism. Hegemonic powers never care about these de jure arguments anyway and will practicality always act in accordance to int's own intressets, leaving weaker nations to navigate it.
You can just say Russia you know. And yes, we know Russia doesn't care about de jure arguments, they only understand power and violence. De-jure arguments are just a tool to them to give talking points to useful idiots in the West, in order to sow division and weaken us.
The question really is: do we accept a world where a third-rate regional power gets to trample all over its neighbors, using unimaginable violence and cruelty if those neighbors refuse to act as submissive client states?
From a moral and legal point of view, it's a no-brainer to argue that we should not accept this, but even from your a-moral "real politik" point of view we should not accept it either because it goes squarely against our own interests to let a rogue state Russia regain its former superpower status by conquering major client states. Europe and the US are much stronger than Russia, so even your Political Realism dictates that we should help Ukraine defeat Russian aggression.
So yeah, there is no world in which "bUt UkRaInE pRoVoKeD RuSsIa" is a valid argument. If you think there is, you can burn in hell with Kissinger for all I care.
Alright. Consider it done and now your response is some sort of recognition that that what i said is the case but this well established, hundreds of years old field of political theory is devilish trick by our enemies to devise us. Which does nothing to strengthen your shallow view on national sovereignty.
As already hinted at: Political Realism is a fucking theory of international relations. It's used to explain things in reality. So you have to understand that it's true for every hegemonic power. It's not unique to Russia. Do you think that the US lead invasion of Afghanistan was respecting their sovereignty? They had no obligation to extradite Bin Laden and we got to see what it meant to not dance to their pipe. The list can go on ad nauseam, we have a couple of thousand years of 'whatabouts' here. There is no need to pretend that this is some weird trick of our enemies to divide and fool you, it's an observable fact about international politics. And it absolutely does you no favors to have this self-sealing mind in the face of it. Weaker nations have always, and will continue, to curtail their own sovereign choices in favor of navigating the interests of greater powers and kept as much sovereignty as they can. Sure they have the radical free will to do anything, but in reality things happens as a result... even if you don't like it. And hence a field of science to understand this process, that looks a-moral due to a lack of having it observed.
Heck, I see that you sort of get the principles of the political theory. As you said, it's in the west interest to not have Russia attack her neighbors. So it manages to describe both Russias actions and the West response to it. It will even describe the limits of our support.
So a better counter to “bUt UkRaInE pRoVoKeD RuSsIa” is to say yes, but I want a want a weak Russia.
"So a nation is not allowed to make its own decision about defense or else Russia just gets to have it?"
"Nations beg to join NATO which is very reluctant and has a long drawn out entry process"
And the annexation of crimea was not provoking and pressuring them to search for defense from NATO?
For the fucking tankies and MAGAts, if the French and King Louis XVI would have turned their backs on the US colonials from 1775 to 1783, the Red Coats would have crushed your rebellion and you would have been another Dominion like Canada. Hang on, someone press reset.
You mean I would have had universal healthcare?!
Mother fucking French...
😂 ...indeed.
So I understand that MAGA is U.S. based, but how many of the "tankies" do you really think are from the U.S.
Red-painted fascists just can't help themselves. War is Completely Justified Resistance And Blowback until someone actually fights back, at which point it's Pointlessly Extending The Conflict
/me sees title. “Oh, these comments are gonna be fun…”
Even this place is full or russian propaganda? Referring to some comments.
It's generally pretty easy to spot. Just look for a short inflammatory sentence without any substance or relevance. They try to fan the flames of conservative meme culture to try and rile up angry and useless debate.
short inflammatory sentence without any substance or relevance you say? Does this count as an example?
Yes, that’s a great example of how propaganda influences the culture of discussion. Russia has been a key source of pushing this kind of rhetoric for a long time, with the specific goal of shifting the culture away from meaningful debate and toward juvenile, reactionary responses. Even though the comment you highlighted comes from the opposite point of view, it's a perfect example of how effective Russian propaganda campaigns have been at shaping and distorting cultural discourse, muddying the waters and preventing genuine conversations from taking place. Your example is a result of their efforts as I highlighted in my original statement.
Definitely.
explained as a shark attack animation (UA with eng sub)
Haha. That's great.
I have to ask, why do people simp for putin? not russia, but putin?
Can you give an example of someone who doesn’t simp for russia, but simps for Putin?
Are there any arguments from those in favor of supplying weapons to Ukraine that isn’t some kind of sexual shaming?
"Genocide is bad and should be resisted", but I understand Trump voters aren't a fan of that idea.
Wait, why are tankies siding with magas? I’ve been intentionally away for a minute, what did I miss?
Did something major happen in the last three days? Or is this the usual redirection of hate after we’ve found something to rally around?
Maga-Communism is a thing for a while: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jackson_Hinkle
Fash and red fash are basically the same thing loyal to different empires.
Your description of the tankie position doesn't explain why they call for Ukraine to surrender like Russia isn't the aggressor. Leftists in general do realize it's a proxy war like you said, but we call for the invader to stop invading. Because, you know... The victim of an invasion surrendering doesnt usually lead to good outcomes for the victim.
What an insulting interpretation that yet again ignores Russian responsibility for this war. It was ONLY their decision.
What do you mean?
If you keep feeding the troll we'll end up with troll shit all over the lawn.
multi-polar imperialism
It was never about land, it's about not letting Ukraine become more westernly oriented. https://youtube.com/watch?v=MhpoNL1gZbw
When we keep talking about it just being about land we let Russia get closer to their actual goals.
"become more westernly oriented" is a strange way to say "stop being a Russian vassal state"
It's the American way.
Similar to how libs view the genocide in palestine.
Can someone show me where all the tankies are? All I ever see is anti-tankie propaganda like this and its seems like a straw man to me. Where are the Leftists who defend Russian aggression?
Did you ask that before or after scrolling down and reading the comments doing exactly that?
/c/endlesswar
As a Mexican, it's always "fun" to read this American comic strips.
It's funny that if you change Russia for Israel and Ukraine for Palestine suddenly the "pro-war" group become "anti-war".
Only funny if you think it's "a pro war" stance and not "Anti-civillians-getting-slaughtered-by-an-oppressive-outsized-imperialist-neighbor".
Isn't it the same Russia-Ukraine and Israel-Palestine?
It's also fun how they don't even reply, just downvote. Reddit lives on lemmy.world.
Reddit is actually quite good on Ukraine support. The bad thing about Reddit is that Spez has allowed Israeli brigades to bandwagon and sneak in support for "Israel at War" as if it was comparable.
Downvotes, frankly, Lemmy users are asking for it by not making downvotes transparent. It's really telling when an account that isn't really active jumps to downvote deeply nested comments., or when it's the same accounts downvoting your comments across different communities where they otherwise hadn't participated on until they began downvoting.
Yeah I think it is a mistake to have some people viewing who up votes and who down votes and others not seeing it. If the data is there, it should just be viewable by all, otherwise the "bad actors" you are worried about doing wrong things will still find ways to do them, and the standard person is just blinded from seeing those actions.
I just disable the view of the voting system. That fixes Lemmy for me, but once in a while when I'm not in an app or I'm logged out, I get to see the downvotes.
Tankies also downvote. Different flavours of Nazis.
I didn't realize America was a hive-mind purely driven to make money for defence contractors.
Speaking of money, that's a whole lot of cookies they wanted me to accept at that website.
Im not sure about other anti-war people but I can speak for myself. Like how Assad was clearly evil so is Russia, their actions are absolutely inexcusable. However, I think it is a valid question to ask how much good does foreign intervention do? It didnt do much good in Syria or Iraq and I dont think its doing much good in Ukraine. At this point Ukraine is another US proxy, who exactly does that help?
Syria and Iraq didn't ask for our help, Ukraine does. I think that's also one of the reasons.
Well, except Ukraine is a unified and largely homogeneous nation with no threat of extremism and factionalism if they either win or at least keep their sovereignty intact after the war. The Middle East and Afghanistan have completely different culture, history, dynamics and variables unlike Ukraine, which is why supporting rebels there proved more troublesome and complicated.
The Ukrainian government has banned political opposition, enaged in censorship, and even banned a religion. In addition they're an extremely corrupt government, they're so corrupt that under any normal circumstances they wouldn't be allowed in the EU or NATO.
And just like that, they come out of the woodwork!
Pointing out Ukrainian censorship makes me a tankie? Or the fact that they're an objectively corrupt government? Do you even know who you're supporting or are you just supporting the popular thing™?
Every country does this. It is up to you to prove that this censorship is wrong. From what I have read banning a religious cult and pseudo Russian political parties is what any sane country would do.
Accusations of corruption can be leveled at every country. A lot of Ukraine's corruption can be traced to Russian gangsters. Russia, just like Ukraine is incredibly corrupt only they have not tried to reform like Ukraine has.
The corruption is also woven into economics. For instance doctors are paid bribes because they don't make very much money. Citizens of the Ukraine often feel it is their duty to engage in this because they want to pay doctors what they are worth.
This was a good read about Ukraine's corruption and paints a very different picture about the corruption. It is really a cultural thing left over from the Soviet Union.
https://2017-2020.usaid.gov/sites/default/files/documents/1863/Changing%20Corrupt%20Behaviors%20Assessment%20Oct.%202015.pdf
Usual Kremlin drivel. Somehow being a corrupt country makes it excusable to be invaded.
Ukraine is at war, any country at war would have censorship. The Allies in World War 2 also enforced censorship but are you going to say they deserve to fight the Nazis? Russia also has censorship even before the war, and now arrests anti-war Russians.
Why is it that those who bring up Ukraine's "corruption and censorship", never mentions Russia's own corruption and censorship? As if being corrupt warrants being invaded. You are doing exactly what this meme pokes fun at: victim blaming. Accuse the enemy of which you are guilty of, am I right?
Ukraine did not "ban" a religion, they banned the Moscow-affiliated Russian Eastern Orthodox church for being openly pro-Putin. Ukrainians and Russians share the same religion: Eastern Orthodox. But the religion is more decentralised and many groups have their own country jurisdictions. Ever since the fall of Byzantine, the Eastern Orthodox set up shop in Russia and in surrounding areas. And ever since then the Russian Eastern Orthodox had been kissing ass of whoever is in charge in Kremlin. As someone mentioned, a priest on the Russian side even blessed nuclear weapons.
If you are not a tankie, you are certainly being manipulated to become a useful idiot. Always view things with a critical eye.
They banned a religion?
They banned the Russian Orthodox sect of Christianity.
The same one that blesses Russia's nuclear weapons.
I'd ban such a dangerous cult too.
Yeah, I am inclined not to call that a ban on
a religionif it's just a specific part of a religionI'd say it's debatable if it's the same religion as Christianity when they're blessing nukes, but regardless, I was just explaining what they were probably talking about when they were saying that Ukraine banned a religion.
Yeah, I understand that, and regarding blessing nukes, they really went full Warhammer on it
https://edition.cnn.com/2024/08/24/europe/ukraine-zelensky-orthodox-church-ban-intl/index.html
Oh, you mean they banned these guys?
I can't imagine why!
For the same reason these guys now ban anyone in their ranks who talks about Christians being peaceful 😅
Seems to me like foreign intervention just did a whole lot in Syria. Just not on Russia's part.
You can add Libya to the list. Slave trade has been booming there since Gaddafi was forcibly ousted.
EDIT: lot of downvotes, no replies. I know I talk a lot about gaza in this comment, but that's just because that's something I know about. I'm way less informed about the Ukraine conflict. Ultimately this comment is just asking for what you believe and why you believe it, read the final sentence first.
I kind of tapped out on paying attention to this conflict, I'm already losing enough sleep over the genocide in Gaza.
With the conflict in Gaza, my opinion is that a ceasefire would be best, followed by an abolition of the apartheid state by means similar to how the one in SA was abolished (forced by global divestment like that enforced by 1986 US anti-apartheid act, etc). On a moral level, this solution feels unsatisfying. So much land has been stolen from the Palestinians, and part of me wants them to fight and win it all back, so advocating for a peaceful resolution hurts. But I also know that realistically, continuing to pursue armed conflict will only result in more Palestinian deaths, and more loss of territory, so I reluctantly join protests in favor of a ceasefire.
I realize that the conflicts are different. Russia is much more powerful than Israel, the Palestinian ethnic cleansing has been going on for decades, etc. So I don't know what to feel about the Ukraine conflict. The pro-peace POV I've already heard. Ceasefire, concede Crimea to Russia, Ukraine becomes non-NATO zone, and the killing stops. For the pro-war people in the Ukraine conflict, what are you hoping for, and what facts make you feel this hope is realistic?
The thing is sort of similar to the Gaza conflict. Who guarantees a ceasefire, who takes up arms to defend that ceasefire if necessary? Precisely there lies the difference. Russia is nuclear power and has veto power in the security counsel of the UN. Amy nation that were to guarantee Ukraine would inevitably get into a major conflict with Russia - a major military power. And because only Western nations are interested in guaranteeing Ukraine, if Russia were to violate the ceasefire - it would be immediately involve NATO and you'd have WW3. Now here's a point that is similar to the Gaza conflict. Russia has a track-record of violating all contracts and agreements they signed. There's the memorandum that forced Ukraine to return the nukes they had after the dissolution of the USSR- in return of sovereignty of Russia. There's a signed allowance of Russia for Ukraine to join NATO and the EU from the early 2000s. And more than I can recall from memory.
While it would technically be possible to force Israel to do what the US/EU wants, by many means. It would be difficult to force groups such as Hamas, Hisbollah, the Houthis to do anything without Iran backing and enforcing such a deal. Something I highly doubt to happen, without Iran losing all backing by other countries. No one can force Russia to do anything besides possibly China, which they won't. The US/NATO could as well, but that would mean direct military engagement, something everyone is desperate to avoid - because no one knows how sane Russian leadership would act in retaliation.
Frankly though I believe that all attempts to pacify the world right now are not in the interest of neither the parties in the Gaza conflict as well as Iran, Russia, China and North Korea. They are clearly showing over and over again with their hybrid warfare that any and all attempts at a peaceful solution would necessitate a believable threat of the US to actually dismantle the entire Russian military.
Lol your comment is currently 4 hours old, and you have a reply that's 3 hours old. Maybe try waiting more than an hour this isn't reddit. It might take longer to get a reply, but it probably won't just be a stupid meme.
Make more new accounts, that'll convince people. Moron.
I don't think the average American has that level of planning. It's more likely people just don't like Russia invading other countries willy nilly
Typical RadLib American imperialist Lemmy Post
TIL American imperialism is when Russia's neighbours don't let themselves be invaded by Russia
Those words all mean things!
This is your usual real conversation?
All the shitstain MAGAts should serve in the Russian infantry.
you've been played by the same media machine that keeps denying you a right for health care.
No american should support arming Ukraine or Israel for as long as they keep denying us the essentials - right to health care or working rights like mandatory vacations.
we should deny military industrial complex their wars for as long as they denying us what we want.
The European countries, like Norway, Sweden, Finland, Denmark, etc...that have superb healthcare and mandatory vacations are supporting Ukraine with military weapons. You should move to fucking Russia or any country occupied or heavily influenced by the shithole and and then tell me about your rights. I understand your comment and yes the US healthcare system is a massive dumpster fire and the defense budget is out of control.
Did you know that "own people first/eigen volk eerst" is the slogan of a Belgian far-right neo-nazi party?
There is nothing immoral about helping a people in need.
You're very naive to think the US war machine is "helping a people in need". Even Boris Johnson admitted this is a proxy war. They're sending ukrainians to die just to mess with Russia. They have no chance of winning anything.
Do you think we have no free will here in Ukraine or something? It's so easy for you to dehumanize us as some puppets who have no agency and are "sent", "made", blah blah blah. Fuck off.
They don't care about you, they care about the idea of you. Just like how so many idealists self-righteously "fighting" the genocide of Palestinians by being armchair warriors on the internet have never actually talked to any Palestinians. Or even tried to.
Stay safe, my friend. I am sorry America will likely not have your back much longer.
Just to offer you a perspective on what other people think, not that you asked for it but idk, don't read if you're not interested :) I'll be brief.
America not having their back might bring about a truce treaty, which would stop the war, the bombs, the people getting killed. I think across the political spectrum from "tankies" to Trump supporters and everything in between, lots of people are hoping for a fast peaceful outcome.
Your willingness to give land that isn't yours away is noted.
It's not my land to give, it just seems to me that trying to take it back doesn't work, and I question the motives of western states and if they genuinely believe in victory, or if they're just fueling the war to weaken their enemy.
I think our free will is being manipulated by the media, manufacturing consent. This goes for people in Ukraine, Europe, the US, Russia, everywhere.
There are some good Youtube videos on the subject if you're interested.
I think you would find that bombs being dropped at night on your city, country, your friends and loved ones, schools, theatres ans hospitals, by a "brotherly nation", whose leader speaks a lot about your country being fake, over the pretence of fighting some "nazis" apparently, would do much more to directly influence your free will than Youtube.
3 day operation that is now in its 3rd year...
Isn't this idea that the conflict was intended to last only 3 days something the media says to portray the russians as weak and incompetent?
Afaik at this stage of the conflict they're fighting so Ukraine can reclaim its lost territories. They've been at this stage for a long time and it doesn't seem doable. This is why many lefties are against the war. Because if you know there's no chance to win but you keep fueling the flames, you're just sending those people to die just to weaken the enemy, which is a pretty shitty thing to do.
Anyway this is just one point of view, might be a very stupid one, but I think it's worth taking into consideration.
Russia clearly stated at the start it would only take them 3 days. Russian officers had pre-booked tables in Kyiv restaurants on the 4th day. They were that confident it was going to be over that quickly.
Boris Johnson is well known for being an idiot. Ukrainians are fighting for their land and their freedom, they're not being sent by americans.
US and Ukraine puppet rulers 100% instigated the war, and are the one who want it to continue. It is categorically false that Russia is interested in ruling all of Ukraine. Tolerating or believing such BS ensures your own oppression. Every US war is tolerated because you are brainwashed into stories of their leader deserving US aggression. War/sanctions is not for your benefit. Pressing for nuclear war with your absurd lies and tolerance for demonic diminishment of world is bad for you too.
There seems to be a "wokeness" over propaganda for Israel genocide, Syria insurection, and every single other war and coup the US is involved in, and the corporatist oligarchist propaganda subjugating you, and meant to subjugate you. When you humanize such disgusting lying propaganda as Russia is the one who is the aggressor in Ukraine, your idiocy fully guarantees your oppression, and you get these disappointing expectations that NYT can be "left wing" while neocon/Israel first oligarchist liars instead.
The fuck are you on about? Yanukovych, a known Russian puppet, being deposed means that US and Ukraine instigated the war?
Most of these "woke" people are also against the genocide of Palestinians, but go on I suppose.
Unfortunately, not sure about that,
How many people want Gaza, and Palestine to do the peace, without even talking about a two states solutions..
I often see, "we want the peace" but, that just mean, israel, you should calm on terror. Nothin more.
Its really like this meme, but for Palestine,
I'm woke,
The democratic one-state solution would make whatever that state would be named (Israel/Palestine/Whatever) majority-Arab and majority-Muslim. That is why people should rationally be for it (because it's an apartheid state otherwise) and should understand that it is the only roadmap to peace between Israelis and Palestinians that does not involve one group wiping out the other.
I agree, that why i said "without even",
Because actually, that's even not a state. On the status etc ok, but for real, they have no independance, to say outloud their conditions. They depends of others arabs states.
But for the one state, without Israel being a Jew nation, national socialism for zionist and without a constitution..., there is a long road, and this road have to start somewhere. Recognizing the legitimacy of the palestinians as people, is maybe a start.
Yanukovych was not a Russian puppet. IMF scuttled EU deal that he worked to sign. Unrealistic/electoral suicide conditions were placed on IMF loan. He wisely chose a Russian loan instead with no conditions. Black flag (US/Nazi) attack on protesters blamed on Yanukovych was the coup. CIA/State handpicked replacements for government, nazi massacre in Odessa, and apartheid ethnostate laws, led to liberation of Crimea. Russia's peaceful Minsk process to provide autonomy to Donbas was used as a delay tactic by Empire to arm Ukrainians, but implicit in their participation was acknowledging Ukraine's nazi problem, and nazi shelling of Donbas. Zelensky admitted his electoral campaign to implement Minsk and denazify Ukraine was a lie. Russian patience telling Ukraine it was time to end the BS with border troop amassments was met with increased massacres of Donbas civilians.
1 month after special operation started, Ukraine had agreed to Russia's peace terms. US/UK bribed Zelensky into suiciding to the last Ukrainian instead. Blinken/US admitted it is a "strategic imperative to diminish Russia" which cannot be a view simulataneously held without provoking/perpetuating the war that is sold as a jobs program for weapons workers, and "future American control" (Blackrock is American and freely gives all its profits to all Americans) of Ukraine's resources.
When pathethic evil lies that the 2014 Ukraine coup had any "Ukrainians love" component to it is repeated, you implicitly support every other lie of the US empire. Yeltsin was awesome liberator, and Putin terrible and corrupt is simply brainwashing based on each leader's level of US empire puppetry. The only puppets in the world are those loyal to CIA. The rest are doing their best to survive through alliances/trade not subjugated to US subjugation.
Can I have some of what you're having?
As long as you can use google translate for the talking points, I imagine you could do it too.
ChatGPT might even be the better option here. People give it a lot of flak, but it understands context better than Google Translate.
How do you even pretend to know what you're talking about when so many of these lies are so damn obvious?
Ukraine violated minsk agreements. I'm tired of pretending otherwise.
Read less msm
Bot detected. Russia violated 'Trilateral Statement' in 1993, when Ukraine agreed to transfer its nuclear warheads to Russia in exchange for security. And what do you think happened next, dum dum?
https://youtu.be/XK_Mj499Wt0
Straight from the horse's mouth. Ukraine was forced to sign those agreements at gunpoint. Russia violated it repeatedly and never fully implemented it. And Borodai confirms Russia never intended to keep to the terms.
Lie less.
First to yourself, then to everyone you poison with your presence.
F Ukraine, they are not my problem
So you admit that you hate Ukraine and this is why you're spouting bullshit lmao
I admit that I hate when propaganda machine whips people into supporting causes they should not care about.
I have 0 to gain from Israel killing Muslims or Ukraine fighting Russia.
This is exactly the same media companies that deny you a right to health care and sustain first past the poll system that keeps 2 shit parties in power.
When media machine tells u to do something - u need to do the fucking opposite.
Deny them war, for as long as they deny u right for UHC.
This is where I'm going to have to tell you that I have more to gain from Ukraine fighting Russia than any American politican does. You see, I'm from a country that would be first in line to be invaded by Russia if NATO ceased to exist. I'll never trust Russia the country, regardless of any purported left-right leaning of their leadership, farther than I could throw it. Which is less than one planck length because it's a pretty big country, attached to the planet, I can't throw it anywhere.
That's not to say I hate all Russian people or anything. Most of the ones I've known have been chill and hate Putin too.
Some three decades ago, us Estonians, along with our brothers in Latvia, Lithuania, Ukraine and many other country, managed to become free of Russian oppression. Nobody wants it again, and clearly Ukrainians are pretty proud of their independence too, otherwise they'd be laying down their arms en masse.
I do wish there could be peace, but Putin's ego won't allow him to settle without any significant territorial gains and while there's war, I for sure am rooting for Ukrainians who, idk if you've heard, this, are the defensive side in this war. They did not roll tanks into Russia out of the blue.
They are Western-imperialists what did you expect ?
Putin said in a speech in Feb 2022 that the idea of Ukraine as an independent nation is a fiction and blames Lenin for its existence. He has always believed the entire area belongs to Russia as he said it himself.
Irrelevant context of insulting Ukraine. All that matters is conditions for ending/avoiding war. Not history that in restrospect proves Ukrainians to be assholes.
Peace-loving Russia could easily end this War of Ukrainian Aggression by no longer having its military inside Ukrainian borders. For some reason, they just love peace too hard to stop shooting.
Is true, i read that on flathearth.net
k
So you're saying Russia doesn't want the war to continue? So why are they fighting in Ukraine then? What are their actual goals and when will the invasion stop?
What evidence makes you so sure, and how do you explain the fact that Russia tried to invade Kyiv? Or do you disagree that Russia tried to invade Kyiv?
When Ukraine agrees to stay neutral and not join NATO. That simple. Same as prior to war, or 1 month after war. They would idealy denazify, or at least eliminate persecutory anti-Russian laws, or if they don't allow referendums for anti-nazi regions to join Russia.
The siege of Kyiv did motivate Ukrainian peace talks. Was likely a mistake to withdraw in good faith based on agreement in talks.
What's the principle behind Russia being allowed to prevent Ukraine or another country from entering alliances? Why doesn't this same principle apply to the Baltic states? And if Russia were to successfuly capture all of Ukraine, would it then have a right to demand similar neutrality from Moldova, Romania, and other states it would then borders? And does the same principle apply the other way - i.e. would it have been just for NATO to say Belarus can't ally with Russia when Lukashenko took over and invaded them?
The US just had an election where the most pro Israel candidate was unanimously approved by entire political establishment. CIA owns every candidate in every foreign democracy, and for some reason needs NGOs in Georgia too. Existential questions about "sovereignty" have to be considered within context of evil and democracy itself, the best vector for pure evil and corruption. "Foreign influence" democracy talking points include allowing all US/Israel foreign influence and blocking all other. Romania SC corruption recently is extreme intervention to ensure NATO slavery.
A different way to word this is why should Ukrainians be FORCED to suicide themselves and their property/prosperity to serve US ambitions of diminishment of Russia? The unliberated portions have lost the right to elections, and Zelensky's platform was the exact opposite of war with Russia. Russia led the Minsk peace process to provide autonomy to Ukraine's nazi persecuted eastern provinces. West's hypocritical participation to delay in order to arm the nazis, was still acknowledging Ukraine's nazi problem. Time to give nazis stronger ruler over Ukraine is your "what principle/right of interference is there".
Ukraine and Canada should be free to diversify their trade. It is in their interests to be friendly with large trading partner. Russia should be allowed to build nordstream expansion when Ukraine chose extortionist fees for the pipelines in their country. US policy on nordstream has been a specfic war on Europe, extortionist profits to fund US weapon sales.
When you invoke the "axiom" of sovereignty to justify extreme evil and manipulated destruction of the sovereign, nuclear strikes on the root of the evil get justified by resistance to evil, whether or not you classify it as more evil, because you're just asserting the right to fabricate war, and there is no principle that says you are right to win such a war.
NATO needs to be disbanded, and democracy restored to its members. If current corrupt subjugation persists, and Europe devoted to suicide for US empire power maximization, then certainly defense against NATO will depend on power balance to defend against NATO. US, adhering to its unprincipled invocation of evil pretending to be principle, has no moral issue in supporting Israel taking territory on "buffer zone pretext" followed by Israel 3 days later announcing that "this is great land to expand settlements in", while bombing Southern Syria independents it pretends is ISIS, while arming/bribing actual ISIS in cooperation with Turkey support for same groups.
If principle mattered, secession of people who don't like their rulers would be promoted. That they need protection from an ally by joining a different empire is unfortunate, but realist.
The crackheads elsewhere in this thread shout demonism of "Remember the history of soviet union" to justify evil today. It's an unprincipled world.
What an insane rambling of lies you've put together there.
You have apparently never lived under Soviet occupation and I strongly suggest you read up on it before you even try to spew such garbage again.
Weird. Even the Libertarian CATO institute agrees with you:
Nazi apologist 🥳
Ad hominem’s, sad 😔 I’m more concerned with historical facts:
It’s all about maintaining the US position as the world’s sole superpower
I wouldn't say "Nazi apologist" is an ad hominem... It seems directly related to the discussion at hand.
I wasn’t aware Ukraine or Russia were National Socialists. Reducto ad Hitlerum.
Is there a "trying to fit everything you don't like into a fallacy in order to dismiss it outright" fallacy?
There is the "fallacy fallacy," but that's slightly different I believe (though you're also doing that one).
But I'll indulge: You know nobody was referring specifically to the National Socialist party of 1930s Germany. Don't be obtuse.
If you try to infer that the argument of your opponent can be dismissed because of their character, then it is a clear argumentum ad hominem
This might help
Ah yes, ancap libertarians. Lemmy users are famously fans of them and their philosophy.
lie.
Russia tried to avoid this.
it was Ukraine who violated Minsk agreements.
Bot detected. Russia violated 'Trilateral Statement' in 1993, when Ukraine agreed to transfer its nuclear warheads to Russia in exchange for security. And what do you think happened next, dum dum?
Ok. I'll bite. Uh... What?
Weird, even Bill Clinton’s Secretary of Defense William Perry understood this:
Weird that Russia invaded the sovereign nation of Chechnya murdering their democratically elected leader then just took the country saying it belonged to them.
This has nothing to do with the west. It's just Russia doing what Russia has always done centuries before the U.S. existed. Putin only cares about taking over lands to make Russia what it used to be and will use any excuse. Allies in the west(like you) are only tiny toys Russia has been using.
Putin is a totalitarian autocratic dictator with imperialist ambitions, but that does not negate the globally destructive effects of American imperialism. This is not mutually exclusive.
The Ukrainian population clearly does not want to be under Russian rule. How did American imperialism cause this?
How Capitalism Conquered the World
Some rando's YouTube channel is the best way to frame your argument. Everyone knows that if it's on YouTube, it must be true!
Very anti-capitalist of you. Be sure to like and subscribe!
NATO "expansion" is all an excuse. If Tyler beat up Timmy and a few kids in the class realized Tyler was a bully, and agreed that if any of them got attacked by Tyler they would all help out, and then Jenna hears of this alliance and asks to be a part of it, because she doesn't want to get beat up by Tyler either, it doesn't mean Tyler gets to beat up Jenna and steal her property. It means Tyler should stop assaulting others and stealing things all together and play nicer with other kids in the class.
Cite sources instead of relying on allegory, like this:
What am I looking for in that? The parts that say Ukriane is no threat to Russia, and that Russia amassing troops to start an invasion into Ukraine has nothing to do with NATO but rather their yearning to rebuild a Russian Empire?
Also, what do you have against allegory? Do you yearn to be the dictator of communication? Lol