The answer to medical debt or trying to survive without health care .... murder a health insurance CEO, get thrown in jail and receive medical care while incarcerated.
Just in case any of my fellow Europeans need an extra nudge in the right direction, this is relating to the guy who has been arrested for shooting the healthcare CEO, and nothing to do with people in Italy.
Italians fall into the trap of being from their specific region rather than the country. Somebody from Sicily will say that aren’t Italian they are Sicilian, likewise how someone in Rome is Roman. To everyone else they are all Italian.
So, the idea is more in the way race is actually percieved, and how unjust it is, and in the people who are usually regarded outside the "desirable" label try to fit into it, while only recieving partial recognition.
"European" is usually used to indicate positive aspects, and people from greater europe usually enjoy claiming that origin to label themselves with the positive aspects that come with it.
Although when you look at attitudes in europe, it's more fragmented and nuanced, with many additional barriers and classifications. For example, PIIGS :
Portugal, Italy, Greece, and Spain (And Ireland) are accepted as european, but with the idea that they are not as deserving of the criteria due to economic troubles. This marks a cultural two tier european perception within europe, with places like Germany looking down on Spain or Italy. Astute readers may mark that all these countries (except ireland) are mediterranian, and racism against the Irish has its own history.
Each wave coming with it's own conservative scaremongering of immigration (despite a lot of needed professionals of high quality and work ethic migrating from said countries) and racist BS. Thus, someone from Poland or Romania are seen as "european" but with a large asterisk.
When those people try to claim the "white" or "european" indicator to take advantage of the positive perception, it feels like they are trying to claim to be something that they are partially gatekept outside of.
Of course, there are noble aspects to people and zones all over the world. This is all silly and irritating and basically racist.
However, I personally find it stupid when people who are about to be marginalised try to claim in group status by the in group that doesn't 100% support them. They are trying to fit into the in group to further their own agenda, instead of advocating for a non in-group/out-group status.
Hence, the joke that Mediterranian countries like italy or morocco. Because the kinds of itallians that are trying to bust their ass to seem "white" would take offence to being painted with the same brush as "africans". They quickly forget that the Roman empire spread all over the middle east and north africa, and those parts currently seen as "undesirable" were a valid part of the empire.
Am from Italy, italians are the whitest of the whites. Rome, the church, the basis of modern Patriarchy and white supremacy was born and raised here folks
I'm from Italy as well. I always like to remember a quote from Charles Mingus, who at some point in his career had an entire black band with the exception of his sax player, Charlie Mariano. When asked about it, he answered something along of the lines of "He's not white, he's Italian."
yea, its because the Italians (and Irish, Chinese, etc as well) generally came to America later and were poorer than the British/French/Germans etc were, so they were often discriminated against (plus the mafia thing, but that also generally comes from being poorer)
I wonder if this is partially a north/south italy divide thing (I don't know all that much about Italy but I have heard the north was generally more privileged)
I don't know about the north, but the places my family are from are not 5 star cities, especially my dads mom. her town is super small and is very poor.
my moms house she grew up here, had a whole thing for my grandfather to raise rabbits he would kill for the family to eat. I think someone complained about it or it wasn't legal to do anymore or somthing so he stopped doing it.
I don't know what you define as that demographic, but what I said is just the truth.
The culture in Italy is very mixed and different between regions, but racism, both cultural and structural, is rampant, even between Italians of the north and south
What I meant is simply that the roman empire and the Catholic church forged ideological colonial basis of today, not that racism didn't exist before
Also I meant Patriarchy as an overarching colonial institution, not as an isolated cultural concept. The world wasn't always universally like this, there are many examples of non (or less) patriarchal societies throughout history, and we don't know enough about prehistory to make any definitive judgement on humanity
I honestly can't tell if you're trolling or just saying completely baseless stuff.
Viking raiders didn't care about the colour of your skin, not to mention the English are visually just as light in tone. Saying it's the root of white supremacy is baseless.
Yep, Jamaican here. Everyone is black, but there's a huge problem with "bleaching" where people are whitening their skin color, as they perceive it to be of higher status.
I think skin bleaching might be a rampant issue. iirc Africans and Asians also do it. Everyone seems to want lighter skin. Wonder if it's due to Western influence.
Well I should have specified I'm not from US too. I realize there's racism eveywhere but classism is worse here in southamerica I believe. We aren't eveyday doing that colorism thing for sure.
I can confirm, I'm also Latino and received various compliments on my skin color. And my friend would refuse to go to the mall in the affluent part of town complaining that she felt discriminated against because of her darker complexion even though she's beautiful. It trips me out because people here swear up and down that racism doesn't exist saying there's only classism.
Edit to clarify that she felt discriminated against because of her skin color.
This took me too long to understand. Basically saying how Luigi is treated will determine if Italians are considered white. If he is treated with respect and not beaten while in custody Italians are confirmed as white people.
Well I actually laughed aloud at this on the train. I'm pretty much generic white looking, but have wondered if my resume ever got treated differently for the very Italian last name.
I have a very Italian full name and definitely got treated differently when I was younger. Growing up in a rural area, many of my teachers would ask me to translate Spanish for them. Oh boy.
Grew up east coast city, so never got that stuff. Not to my face anyway. Had one or two grade school teachers who were awful towards the south american and asian kids who didn't speak any english.
It's so ridiculous, too. As far as I can tell, he was arrested, because his clothes looked superficially similar to the person who shot the CEO, but if you spend five seconds comparing the security camera images, it's pretty obvious that none of the clothing items actually match. If they hole him up based on this evidence, that's embarrassing.
Not even just the clothing. I mean, you can change clothes, and lighting can affect colors pretty wildly (see: white/gold or blue/black dress). I don't think anyone can change the shape of their face, grow a unibrow, and get a darker complexion in the span of 3 days, though.
The pistol, ID, and manifesto that anybody on the run would’ve ditched in New York and could have well been in the hands of the police to be planted on whoever they saw fit?
i dont know? i mean my skin isn't white. i have a darker shade complexion than a "white" person. somewhat similar to someone from a med/middle eastern country.
I like to complain on YouTube videos where an Italian makes food with tomatoes and calls it authentic Italian food because tomatoes are Mexican. Get on my level.
So you heard it here, folks. Pizza is not Italian.
Another failure of American education here. I didn't learn about Sacco and Vanzetti until after high school. And only because Hideo Kojima decided to include the song from Sacco E Vanzetti in two of the Metal Gear games.
Whiteness won't help here, this dude attacked the owner class. He's going to be smeared then locked up for the rest of his life.
What remains to be seen now is whether he gets better medical care in prison than he did via publicly available insurance.
The answer to medical debt or trying to survive without health care .... murder a health insurance CEO, get thrown in jail and receive medical care while incarcerated.
CEOs hate this one trick
Technically, all prison health care is publicly available
This dude did not attack anyone. Evidence was so obviously planted that it's funny.
Well, he wasn't shot, choked to death, or mangled in the back of a police van at the time of arrest, so that's already a win for him.
Or locked up in the back and placed on train tracks...
there's also the 'being rich' thing
Took me a second to puzzle this out...
Just in case any of my fellow Europeans need an extra nudge in the right direction, this is relating to the guy who has been arrested for shooting the healthcare CEO, and nothing to do with people in Italy.
You mean the innocent man they arrested on suspicion of shooting the healthcare CEO
You mean the good samaritan who shot the CEO.
Thanks. I was really wondering what this was about.
well yeah, mediterraneans like Italians and Moroccans don't count as white in europe.
EDIT : People are thinking that this is being racist against people, wheras it's 60% satirical, 40% pointing out problematic perceptions of race.
EDIT2 : updated text and information :
https://lemmy.world/comment/13904300
"White" is not a category that is used a lot in Europe.
Exactly. The term we use to categorize Italians is "Italian".
I have Sicilian relatives who would debate that.
That goes for pretty much anywhere in Italy
That they wouldn't want to be called Italian, or that that would debate you?
Italians fall into the trap of being from their specific region rather than the country. Somebody from Sicily will say that aren’t Italian they are Sicilian, likewise how someone in Rome is Roman. To everyone else they are all Italian.
https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/style-guide/ethnic-groups/#2021-census
In Britain it's used in most forms that check for diversity etc.
That still not "a lot" in European terms :)
Morrocans don't count as anything in Europe.
updated text and information :
https://lemmy.world/comment/13904300
France also borders the Mediterranean, so I don’t think you know what you’re talking about
updated text and information :
https://lemmy.world/comment/13904300
Wtf are you smoking ?
So, the idea is more in the way race is actually percieved, and how unjust it is, and in the people who are usually regarded outside the "desirable" label try to fit into it, while only recieving partial recognition.
"European" is usually used to indicate positive aspects, and people from greater europe usually enjoy claiming that origin to label themselves with the positive aspects that come with it.
Although when you look at attitudes in europe, it's more fragmented and nuanced, with many additional barriers and classifications. For example, PIIGS :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PIGS_(economics)
Portugal, Italy, Greece, and Spain (And Ireland) are accepted as european, but with the idea that they are not as deserving of the criteria due to economic troubles. This marks a cultural two tier european perception within europe, with places like Germany looking down on Spain or Italy. Astute readers may mark that all these countries (except ireland) are mediterranian, and racism against the Irish has its own history.
This also happens to eastern europe :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_enlargement_of_the_European_Union
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_enlargement_of_the_European_Union
Each wave coming with it's own conservative scaremongering of immigration (despite a lot of needed professionals of high quality and work ethic migrating from said countries) and racist BS. Thus, someone from Poland or Romania are seen as "european" but with a large asterisk.
When those people try to claim the "white" or "european" indicator to take advantage of the positive perception, it feels like they are trying to claim to be something that they are partially gatekept outside of.
Of course, there are noble aspects to people and zones all over the world. This is all silly and irritating and basically racist.
However, I personally find it stupid when people who are about to be marginalised try to claim in group status by the in group that doesn't 100% support them. They are trying to fit into the in group to further their own agenda, instead of advocating for a non in-group/out-group status.
Hence, the joke that Mediterranian countries like italy or morocco. Because the kinds of itallians that are trying to bust their ass to seem "white" would take offence to being painted with the same brush as "africans". They quickly forget that the Roman empire spread all over the middle east and north africa, and those parts currently seen as "undesirable" were a valid part of the empire.
It is and always has been a class war. The owners love us squabbling over skin color.
Am from Italy, italians are the whitest of the whites. Rome, the church, the basis of modern Patriarchy and white supremacy was born and raised here folks
I'm from Italy as well. I always like to remember a quote from Charles Mingus, who at some point in his career had an entire black band with the exception of his sax player, Charlie Mariano. When asked about it, he answered something along of the lines of "He's not white, he's Italian."
Maybe the social meaning of ethnicity is really relative to the racist empires they're situated in and not on some sort of inherent value
yea, its because the Italians (and Irish, Chinese, etc as well) generally came to America later and were poorer than the British/French/Germans etc were, so they were often discriminated against (plus the mafia thing, but that also generally comes from being poorer)
i disagree
I wonder if this is partially a north/south italy divide thing (I don't know all that much about Italy but I have heard the north was generally more privileged)
I don't know about the north, but the places my family are from are not 5 star cities, especially my dads mom. her town is super small and is very poor.
I am told that where my italian great grandmother lived it was fairly normal to keep a goat in the house (like, indoors) for financial reasons
interesting to me as I have never heard of that being a thing in the U.S.
my moms house she grew up here, had a whole thing for my grandfather to raise rabbits he would kill for the family to eat. I think someone complained about it or it wasn't legal to do anymore or somthing so he stopped doing it.
That's great and all, but it means nothing to race theorists.
Holy Roman Empire of German Nation was a thing once...
I don't know what you define as that demographic, but what I said is just the truth. The culture in Italy is very mixed and different between regions, but racism, both cultural and structural, is rampant, even between Italians of the north and south
So pagans weren’t white?
The Norse?
What a weird definition you use
What I meant is simply that the roman empire and the Catholic church forged ideological colonial basis of today, not that racism didn't exist before
Also I meant Patriarchy as an overarching colonial institution, not as an isolated cultural concept. The world wasn't always universally like this, there are many examples of non (or less) patriarchal societies throughout history, and we don't know enough about prehistory to make any definitive judgement on humanity
True but that doesn’t fit with your argument as a precondition to being white
Whiteness as we know it was mad there
Where in the world does that come from?
Norse are the Scandinavians
I would say Northern Germanic but it might cause confusion with the country
I meant the accusation that white supremacy was "born" in the nordics.
Maybe I misinterpreted what you meant?
That’s where pale white people come from, they killed dark white people across Europe as they spread
I honestly can't tell if you're trolling or just saying completely baseless stuff.
Viking raiders didn't care about the colour of your skin, not to mention the English are visually just as light in tone. Saying it's the root of white supremacy is baseless.
The Normans replaced the Britons who were darker
The Welsh are the only dark people left on the Isles and even they aren’t homogeneous in that anymore
British.
Edit; Im curious as to why this is getting downvoted.
Go the fuck outside
Maybe you should if you’ve never seen a tan person before
I think they were equal opportunity killers.
I'm latino and I still do not understand how the fuck you man manage to live always looking at whiteness. Such an hysteria with the skin color.
Latinos also act prejudiced to those darker than them
Yep, Jamaican here. Everyone is black, but there's a huge problem with "bleaching" where people are whitening their skin color, as they perceive it to be of higher status.
I think skin bleaching might be a rampant issue. iirc Africans and Asians also do it. Everyone seems to want lighter skin. Wonder if it's due to Western influence.
At least some of it comes from outdoor workers being darker from sun exposure and then cultures associate "dark = laborer."
I still think it's funny that tanning salons are so popular in the US, to look like you have free time to lounge in the sun.
Isn't tanning a form of "skin darkening"
Well I should have specified I'm not from US too. I realize there's racism eveywhere but classism is worse here in southamerica I believe. We aren't eveyday doing that colorism thing for sure.
I can confirm, I'm also Latino and received various compliments on my skin color. And my friend would refuse to go to the mall in the affluent part of town complaining that she felt discriminated against because of her darker complexion even though she's beautiful. It trips me out because people here swear up and down that racism doesn't exist saying there's only classism.
Edit to clarify that she felt discriminated against because of her skin color.
Well obviously you can't always look at the black ones, they disappear in the shadows. /joke
This took me too long to understand. Basically saying how Luigi is treated will determine if Italians are considered white. If he is treated with respect and not beaten while in custody Italians are confirmed as white people.
Thank you. I'm slow.
Well I actually laughed aloud at this on the train. I'm pretty much generic white looking, but have wondered if my resume ever got treated differently for the very Italian last name.
I have a very Italian full name and definitely got treated differently when I was younger. Growing up in a rural area, many of my teachers would ask me to translate Spanish for them. Oh boy.
Grew up east coast city, so never got that stuff. Not to my face anyway. Had one or two grade school teachers who were awful towards the south american and asian kids who didn't speak any english.
they're trying to make him sound insane by referring to his manifesto with vague and scary language so I think we got our answer
It's so ridiculous, too. As far as I can tell, he was arrested, because his clothes looked superficially similar to the person who shot the CEO, but if you spend five seconds comparing the security camera images, it's pretty obvious that none of the clothing items actually match. If they hole him up based on this evidence, that's embarrassing.
Not even just the clothing. I mean, you can change clothes, and lighting can affect colors pretty wildly (see: white/gold or blue/black dress). I don't think anyone can change the shape of their face, grow a unibrow, and get a darker complexion in the span of 3 days, though.
Thanks. I didnt pick this up as reference to that.
Are you forgetting the silenced pistol and fake ID they found on him?
I guess, I'm not up-to-date on the situation then...
Haha yes the ID and pistol that definitely existed and definitely weren't planted.
The pistol, ID, and manifesto that anybody on the run would’ve ditched in New York and could have well been in the hands of the police to be planted on whoever they saw fit?
im italian and dont consider myself white
Do you consider yourself a POC?
i dont know? i mean my skin isn't white. i have a darker shade complexion than a "white" person. somewhat similar to someone from a med/middle eastern country.
Us census would say Mediterranean and Middle Eastern are white.
White seems to be translating to "those whose ancestors we actually teach about in the west" and then the rest.
So Mexicans are white because Spain decided to force them into history.
We later learned this lesson and rather than invading, we shipped the people over to us for the next big conquest....
my mother is Italian and often gets mistaken for Latin American
Not surprising, since Latin is from Italy.
he's not just Italian, he's so Italian that he was named the way jowling kowling rowling would name a token Italian character in harry potter
I'm not white or Italian, I just like to complain on YouTube videos where a non Italian makes inauthentic Italian food.
Makes me feel like a real ally who is standing up for something.
I like to complain on YouTube videos where an Italian makes food with tomatoes and calls it authentic Italian food because tomatoes are Mexican. Get on my level.
So you heard it here, folks. Pizza is not Italian.
Pizza predates tomatoes in Italy.
Not what Italians call authentic pizza, it doesn't.
Yes, it does.
First result of searching authentic Italian pizza in YouTube
I mean, he is on the sworthy side.
Sexiness gets its own weighted score
Nicola and Bart were Italians, and they were treated clearly as non-white Americans. Though it was another time.
Another failure of American education here. I didn't learn about Sacco and Vanzetti until after high school. And only because Hideo Kojima decided to include the song from Sacco E Vanzetti in two of the Metal Gear games.
The majority of Caucasians have African genes.