Playing hard to get is a big fucking red flag. It shows a lack of maturity and a lack of truthfulness. It also shows a willingness to be deceitful to your partner.
This, right here. Don't date people who play mindgames. Start a relationship the way you mean for it to continue; with open and honest communication.
Yes, obviously flirting is about dropping hints, and that's fine, but at the point where the hinting stops and one party says "I'm into you and I hope you're into me too", there should be no bullshit. If you like someone you show them the basic respect of saying what you fucking mean.
"playing hard to get" is a female fantasy, not a male one. She likes the idea that she's so HIIIIIIIIIEYEIIIIGH, high above me, she's so lovely that I'm willing to throw my family in a canyon to prove my worth to her. Boosts her delusions of grandeur.
There is a certain kind of men who do enjoy the chase. They call themselves "pickup artists." Normal men are either looking for something casual or something long term, and in both cases they're interested in finding a woman who is also looking for similar terms and don't really want that chore maximized or complicated beyond what it already is.
Women do not know how to play hard to get. They implement "hard to get" as "flatly refuse." I think a separate hatred of expressing consent is why they don't say something like "You'll have to do better than that."
If you spend even 20 minutes in a sex club, you can watch and see numerous examples of how you're wrong. It might help you understand the sexual behavior and cues of women.
Sex clubs are normal. They are legal venues where you can watch people interact. Given that it's a sex club, the interactions are usually sexual. You'd be able to see women doing things like saying no clearly and not minding that at all - that's actually part of the culture of sex clubs and sex positive spaces.
I don't think it's creepy and I'm a woman. What verbiage would you prefer, since you're a man who needs to police how women talk about other women. Tell me what would help you not feel like a victim when I discuss watching women at a sex club, who are there ostensibly to be watched in the first place.
I think it's more that you're scared of rejection and women having choices. You're too much of a coward to even try to go to one and just see. You watch porn right? But irl, that's too intimate and you might start seeing these women as people. Can't have that.
The person you unloaded that reply on wasn't even the one you originally replied to. Are you okay?
Before you get too affronted by my maybe not super politic words below, understand that you should imagine me in chaps, a chest harness, and a bull horns headpiece if it's the Halloween Munch, vibing.
A sex club is to advanced empathy as differential equations are to little Timmy's arithmetic problem, do you not realize this?
It's a firehouse turned upon hearing someone say their mouth is a mite dry. It's just the reality: They're literally categorized as 'non-mainstream' spaces precisely because they do not easily fit the currently mainstream view on sexuality or mores, pretty much nowhere.
Not to mention, not the environment to throw in those you suspect of bigotry or misogyny jeez, they're supposed to be spaces kept clear of that sort of baggage and drama so their purpose can remain clear, consensual, and to the point.
No organizer is going to host a "gawk at our ladies react, learn our etiquette" event, and if they did, that would only maybe help the sort of folk you're accusing these people of being mask and pass at the Munch.
Not improve their lives long term in any way. There is a reason why you still have to get to a dedicated space to see the things you mention play out as normally as they do, where they are maximally normalized.
People generally can't act how they do in there in any other social setting and they're spaces where the things you learn can only translate to your life in some ways (more compassion, better lover, learn to seek and engended enthusiastic consent, etc) but even that generally requires the person going to be arriving ready to take some learning out.
I don't care if you've been pegged in front of everyone at a sex club, that doesn't make you the leading authority on them. And you certainly aren't the leading authority on women's comfort.
I think sex clubs are a great starter and much better than strip clubs or porn theatres. Sex clubs usually have people from all ages and backgrounds, and often have ice breaker event nights like game night, karaoke, bondage, etc. Sex Clubs and kink, like Lemmy, are full of autistic nerds. So much so that I have noticed my subs who play DnD are genuinely better at roleplay and metadiscussions compared to ones who haven't played.
Also, his behavior isn't a risk to others because sex clubs (not Munch) are private clubs with rules that you have to sign to enter, and people monitoring activity. He has to follow the rules which includes consent, and yes they allow new people into sex clubs no problem. Building community is one of the best ways to get someone to change their mindset. There's plenty of misogyny in those spaces without you blaming me, a woman, for it. Yet again men try to make women responsible for their bullshit. What have you said to the poster to help him deconstruct his toxic masculinity and sex phobia? Or do you only have the energy to be shitty to the only obvious woman here?
Voyeurism is 10000000% allowed at sex clubs and it is what the majority of people there do. Most people do not get busy in front of others. And the people who do are often exhibitionists who like that. That's literally the point of the sex club.
The reason sex clubs are a dedicated space is so people can consent to seeing sex acts happening and being around sex acts. The entire point is that it is founded in consent for those acts at the start. That is what makes it "alternative" - the consent itself, not the acts taking place per se, which are normal in a bedroom setting. That others consent to see it and treat it as a norm is where it becomes alternative. OP would get a masterclass in consent and how it works in front of his eyes. It would probably benefit him.
You are off your rocker, and dangerous to those you share a play space with, wow. I pray you're that visibly unhinged where others can be warned before they risk their reputations, sanity, or comfort near you.
My daughter is almost 5 and I’ve made a conscious effort to stop doing whatever I’m doing if she says stop or no.
For example, tickling. If I’m tickling and she says stop, I stop immediately with no back talk.
Or if I’m copying her in a joking way (we both do it to each other from time to time) and she says stop, that’s it. We’re done.
When I’m snuggling with her after reading books before bed, she feels comfortable enough to say, “you can go now” and I that’s it. I leave with no complaints.
In non-safety situations I ask if I can hold her hand. If she says no, that’s it, I’m not holding her hand. Parking lots are a different matter.
I will continue this throughout her entire upbringing so that if (ok, when) someone continues to do something she has said stop or no to, it will be unambiguously wrong to her.
Later when I explain that “no” is a complete sentence, it should feel intuitive.
My only concern with this is that she might get the impression that people will do whatever she asks, but there's a ton of context missing which likely demonstrates those concepts to her.
My only suggestion is to make it clear that if she says no, or stop, and someone doesn't stop, do something about that. I'm sure that will be a discussion later. She sounds young enough for it to not be very important right now.
I appreciate this.
I don't have kids and I'm just some guy on the internet, but I appreciate you nonetheless.
I think that you probably need to make some exceptions for doctors, etc., since children will say 'no' to things that they actually need, like vaccines, or dental work.
The older one just had a dental appointment today, and was uncomfortable with some of the procedures. My wife talked him through things along with the hygenist, and for a few things she took a different approach he was more comfortable with.
With vaccine reluctance, we generally go straight to bribes. We treat ourselves after doing something like that anyway, so why not them?
I'm really trying to do this with my daughter too - she's 7 and it's getting hard at times because she's wanting space, but I'll give her that as she wants it. Unless it is safety related of course...
Some advice my parents gave me is: Theres two answers: yes, and everything else
An example of this with me and my gf is that this being my first relationship I am wanting to take this REALLY slow and she respects this. But anyways I don’t remember what she asked it was something pretty tame but I said “maybe” and she responded with “that wasn’t a no but it wasn’t an enthusiastic yes either”
Boy is she in for a ride awakening when she goes out into the world.
Kids like yours don't fare well when their world view gets shattered the first time.
I will continue this throughout her entire upbringing so that if (ok, when) someone continues to do something she has said stop or no to, it will be unambiguously wrong to her.
It should feel wrong to her. That's the point. And there will be explanations later that not everyone respects the first "stop" or "no" and that she should do something about those people.
She will learn about guns and I will offer to help her get a license to carry. I'm afraid those that would not respect her "stop" or "no" will be the ones getting their world view shattered.
It's kind of strange that you seem to believe I won't be able to explain this...
I've already had to explain that she can completely ignore people, including adults, who say things like, "god will punish you" and she's not even 5 yet.
I mean isn't that most kids though? First time or in the world no matter how you do it is a shock.
What OP is doing is just the first steps to what I'm guessing is going to be a continuing education about how is ok to say no and should be respected. It isn't the end of the road for the conversation about no
I think they do much better because they understand they are allowed to set boundaries and expect people to respect those. That's actually really healthy. IDK what the hell kind of weird scenarios you are imagining.
Children are, at some point, going to learn that the world is an awful place. This is inevitable. But it will go much better for them if, like in the example you're responding to, they've been equipped with the tools required to navigate that awfulness.
What would you prefer? That they teach their child never to exercise any autonomy over their own body? How is that preferable?
That's a pretty rapey song, especially considering the time period. I like the song, but when we performed it, the gender roles were reversed at least.
It's not a rapey song. Yes, to modern us it sounds like it was made by Dennis Reynolds, but no it's not. Before looking too deeply at the lyrics, just ask yourself first, "does it make any sense you write a Christmas duet about raping a woman?" No, it doesn't. It's a playful song about making excuses to stay together longer. It's kind of a crap song anyway, so I'm not even saying this to defend a sign I like; I'd be happy to never hear it again.
You are correct about this song, but keep in mind, one of the most popular wedding songs is "Every Breath You Take", a song about stalking someone. So, I could def see a duet being made like that.
"No means no" means "no means no." You don't get to have it both ways!
Look, lady, we went through decades of the women's lib movement to finally get guys to respect your wishes and quit harassing you with unwanted advances. But now you expect us to be clairvoyant or some shit when you say "no" but don't really mean it?!
Fuck that! You get respected whether you like it or not.
I went home with a lady friend, who invited me into her bed, then said that we're not going to do anything. So, I didn't even try, and we just talked and cuddled. FF to two years later, and we start dating, and she questioned why I didn't try anything that night. Like, duh. A lady says no, it means no. That is what I've had drilled into me as a male since I was a very young age. I'm so damn scared of being called for sexual harassment.
You did the right thing. I helped a lady friend move out from her husband's when they split. She didn't want to stay in a new apartment all alone, so I offered to spend the night on her couch. Well come time to bed down, she wanted me in her bed. Then she wanted to snuggle. Then she started rubbing her backside against my front.
Well I read the signs and we had sex. It was fine. Wind up dating for a bit. Like 3 weeks later we were talking about something and she lays on me, "I never said we could have sex so technically you raped me."
You do not fucking accuse someone of technically rape as playful banter. Things went awkward and downhill after that. Not solely because of that. She was not ready for a relationship that soon after splitting from her husband, but I was young and horny and too inexperienced to possess the level of maturity necessary to understand that.
Anyway, maybe if I had made sure to give her more time it would've gone better. Probably not. But I damn sure wouldn't have gotten accused of rape.
I'm not that technical. I was trying really hard to be a good guy but I definitely wanted to fuck her. That whole façade of maturity crumbled at my first opportunity.
It was all bullshit, technically and otherwise. But there's something about a woman looking at you and saying you raped her that undoes you. There was probably a time in my life after that when I was in danger of going full incel. But I didn't and here we are. We were both young and dumb and I'm sure she could never have known how deeply that cut.
Yeah... Puuh. That's not a normal thing to say. If it's dark humor, and said with irony, it might be perfectly fine, and even funny. Because then, they don't actually mean it. But, if they do mean it? Sheesh. You dodged a poison leaded bullet.
Hard to explain exactly. I think she meant it humorously, except in a way where she kinda meant it? I think it was in the context of her ex sexually abusing her and me saying I was nothing like that.
It's not cool to say, "my ex was a crazy bitch." I was no paragon of maturity myself. But I do think she had some issues. She was about 22 (I think that's how old I was) and that had been her second marriage, and there were issues with how we treated one another that spoke to both of our immaturities.
I think the whole thing lasted about 3 months, so it wasn't like it was so bad that I instantly left. But it sticks in my craw nearly thirty years later. On some level, she meant that. And she probably told her next partner I was part of the pattern of abuses she suffered—waving her damage around like a broken wing looking for... something.
She's probably grown up by now. Most of us do. Those are some really awkward years for a lot of us.
ETA: Thinking on it, the thing is she was trying to bring me down to her ex's level. She was joking that I shouldn't hold myself above the guy who abused her. That's just not funny even in a playful way. No matter how tee hee you say it, that's toxic as fuck.
Quite right. No one is going to accuse me of murder because I have never, and would never murder anyone. Same is true if sexual harassment or assault.
No one will ever misconstrue my actions as sexual harassment or assault because...surprise...I don't do those things. All sexual contact I have with people is wholly consensual, and consent is acquired with no pressure on the other party(-ies), in a sober state, and in advance.
The only way I'm ever going to be accused of any wrongdoing toward another human...harassment, assault, murder, or otherwise...is if someone has a vendetta against me because I chose to not tolerate their bullshit for whatever reason. In which case, I have a wealth of friends and exes who would be very happy to serve as character references.
In short: If you are worrying about being accused of sexual harassment or assault, then you are approaching relationships wrong.
I am a big nerd when it comes to relationship theory. I heavily advocate for purposeful relationships in which each party makes it well-known what their wants, needs, dealbreakers, boundaries, STI status, etc. are well before clothes come off.
I regularly hear people reply, "Lol no, you start talking like that and she's gonna nope out because she's not gonna find that sexy at all." To which I reply, "Then maybe you're dating the wrong people." The people in my circles...men, women, and enbies alike...highly value consent, so when a potential partner starts this discussion, it is very, very sexy. It shows that they value our safety, sexual health, informed consent and bodily autonomy, and people like that are the only people for whom I will ever take my clothes off.
Yup, I'm a professional dominatrix and having these open conversations is a must. If done correctly, it invites deeper intimacy and helps the relationship grow - it doesn't drive people away. The only reason honesty would drive someone away, is exactly the reason you should be honest - so they can have informed consent about what's taking place and say no if they want to. If someone isn't allowed to say "no" in the first place, then whether they say yes is irrelevant. Can't consent if you can't dissent.
So, fun story. My ex-wife, when we were dating, told me that she was raped by her dad after her parents were divorced. She said that this was why sexual intimacy was difficult for her. (I urged her to go into couples therapy wth me. She refused.) When we were going to get married, she invited her dad to the wedding, and I asked her about that; she said that it was actually her mom's boyfriend that had raped her, not her dad. But she very, very definitely said her dad did it, and it was clear from the context surrounding the conversation at the time that she knew I was interpreting her statement as being about her biological father.
So there are a few possibilities here. First, both her mom's boyfriend and her dad raped her when she was a pre-teen. It's not impossible, but it seems improbable. And also, why invite one of her her rapists to her wedding, and why try to re-build a relationship with him? And why lie to me when I said WTF? Second, her father really did rape her, and the boyfriend didn't. Cool, now she's falsely accused her mom's ex- of rape, and is trying to build a relationship with her rapist. Third, the boyfriend raped her; but why did she tell me her father had? Why drag him through the mud? Why not say that it was her mom's BF in the first place? Fourth--and this is the one I lean towards--she was not raped by either, and it was a convenient excuse to give me to explain why she wasn't interested in sex with me without saying she didn't like sex. Given that the decade we were married was nearly sexless, and that she eventually claimed to be asexual (which I doubt, since I know for certain that her sex life once we split was far, far busier than it had been when we were dating or married), that's the one that seems most probable.
Honestly, this weird dichotomy of "playing hard to get" and expecting the guy to make a move after being told no is in the process of dying, but it could go faster.
I often wonder how much slut shaming has to do with women who expect/want this sort of behavior from men. Does it make them feel like they aren't "responsible" for the sexual encounter if the guy is pushy, therefore they aren't a slut?
I've always wondered about it since I hated pushy dudes when I was still dating. My husband had excellent manners and etiquette, that's what initially attracted me to him, so this one is a mystery.
Maybe one day someone can figure it out and explain it to me.
My husband and I met at a friend's house and both ended up staying the night. The friend went up to his room, my husband set up the pull out couch for me to lay on... and then went to go sleep on the recliner. It was fucking adorable and I'm pretty sure that right there was the moment I decided he needed to be mine. I laughed at him and told him he needed to get his ass over to the bed because there was no way we weren't going to at least cuddle after making eyes at each other for 6 hours straight, lol.
Respect is fucking hot. I don't understand guys who don't get that, or women who don't think the same way.
I often wonder how much slut shaming has to do with women who expect/want this sort of behavior from men.
Honestly, probably a lot. Women are every bit as horny as men are in their late teens and 20s, but there's a ton of social pressure on women to be both virgins and whores; not have sex, but be sexually desirable. (Meanwhile, men mostly get told that they're supposed to be ready to go all the time.) The old Christmas song, "Baby It's Cold Outside" relies on this whole trope; she wants to say yes, but she can't just say yes; she needs to have some excuse. And he knows that, so he's trying to give her the excuse she wants. But to our ears now it ends up sounding very rape-y.
I often wonder how much slut shaming has to do with women who expect/want this sort of behavior from men. Does it make them feel like they aren’t “responsible” for the sexual encounter if the guy is pushy, therefore they aren’t a slut?
this is 99% of it. It's about plausible deniability if things don't go well. it's all about pushing all the responsibility onto the man.
When have you ever met a woman admit to being bad at sex?
She was surprised at my answer, because it wasn't what other guys would have done. I guess ultimately she respected it because we dated for a few years.
I’m so damn scared of being called for sexual harassment.
OK, if all you people over there are like this, and you still do have functional relationships, maybe I'm really just unlikable and don't constantly fail at reading the signs.
Or somehow only likable for the particular kind of women who communicate with signs only. There definitely, confidently were such cases, but!
And they clearly said the reason why they didn't do it was because they didn't want to be "called for sexual harassment". Not because they respect women and consent, but because they didn't want to be caught.
Dude you're being purposefully obtuse and pedantic. It's super lame. Nobody enjoys a conversation with someone who purposefully misunderstands you then starts arguing about it.
What you said is a bit childish. No, definitely not scared of this because it will never happen. I'm not going to do this because I'll ensure there is consent first. Please read and understand what I said.. (edit: grammar)
Yeah lady, that's a good thing. Not only for safety, but because normal people don't like stupid head games or trying to guess "is she playing hard to get?"
Plus it seems to me that if somebody plays hard to get to stroke their ego about how desired they are, they are much more likely to end up with a partner that’s an overconfident or pushy asshole and might not be the most fun to share a life with.
That’s not an absolute rule of course. I’m sure it works for plenty of couples where the chase was fun and flirtatious. But that crap is not for me and thank goodness I’ve been married to a good person for a long-ass time.
I've met one once, but it seems that was only because she'd given up trying to make me notice those games.
At some point her patience ran out, and I haven't yet come up with a way (natural and not forced) to talk to her that would meet the condition she set then (if it's something romantic, then I should mean it and not wander around, and if it's art, then it should be clearly art, no nonsense ; and wandering around is my way of life, so).
I have occasionally thought that a woman might be looking for more pushback when they say no, but then I realize that's insane. I have to believe people when they say no because the alternative is a nightmare, and also I don't want to be with someone who doesn't say what they mean.
There's a vast difference between a straight up no and opening a dialogue.
If I ask a girl out and she says sorry I have a boyfriend or sorry you're not my type or no thank you I'm just going to move on.
It's no skin off my back, thank you for letting me know before I waste of my time.
I just wish I had this same level of confidence in my teenage years as I do now.
Like you miss all of the shots that you don't take and I missed so many fucking shots.
I even had one girl laying on the bed next to me telling me about how she's had sex before and would like to try having sex again and I was like "well good luck with that, I mean, you're really pretty so you're probably not going to have any problems"
Yeah that one happened in my early teens, and so a part of me is glad I didn't because I definitely wasn't mature enough for that level of instant relationship and if it had not turned into a relationship I would have been completely destroyed, but there's another part of me that all these years later still regrets.
--be me high functioning autistic, struggle with social ques.
--begin highschool, theres a cute girl.
--decide to be extra friendly, take every available moment to be beside her and friendly.
-- 2 months go by, still doesnt notice my intent. Decided to be blunt.
-- tell her i like her, romatically.
Says cool and walks away,
-- autism engage.mp3
-- do the same shit for 2 weeks
-- she tells me she want to be friends,
I respect her wishs tho saddened.
-- walk with her in-between classes like all my other friends.
-- she calls me creepy and to stop stalking her. I explain im not stalking im just being a friend and just enjoy talking inbetween class.
-- 2 weeks go by, she doesnt say anything about me being "creepy"
-- go to B lunch where i sit by myself cause friends have A lunch.
-- phone buzz.mp3
-- random number of text message with photo of me 20 seconds ago at lunch table.
-- panic issues, i message who dis.
They reply, you dont need to know stop stalking (girls name).
I explain its not stalking if i go up and say hello and talk to them.
-- they dont listen, they tell me to stop being creepy. I ask again who this was.
No reply...
-- i tell them ill get the cops involved if they dont reval themselfs.
-- lunch ends, goes to math class. Asks (girl) what she know about random texter.
-- (girl) says no clue
-- day ends, sleep like shit because of creepy MF.
-- finally get response, im (girls friend)
-- i sit at lunch table following day with her and ask whats this is about.
-- she says (girl) says im a creepy stalker that follows her around and stares at her. And that (girl) asked her to do this.
I explain i like talking to her, and she engages back in a mutal conversion.
And that im autistic and zone out.
-- she still insists im a creep
-- confront (girl) in math class
"Why did you lie about this, just tell me you dont want to be friends"
Girl refuses to talk to me and spreads rumors of me being a creep.
-- MFW i dont miss highschool dating.
TLDR- women gaslights autism into stalking and give lasting insecurity issues.
Creepy guy uses excuse of autism to justify being creepy despite clear verbal instructions and explanation.
Autism is not an excuse to be act however you want, people give you leeway not free lichence. Failing to pick up cues is one thing but you don't need emotional intelligence to know that following someone around like that is not acceptable behavior. None of my medically diagnosed autistic friends stalk girls and they'd all understand clear and direct instructions.
My dude, the social que was missed.
It was not verbalized what she wanted.
The average person may have gotten the social que. But I did not, i missed it completely, which to some credit i should have inquired more about.
But hindsight is 20/20, i understand alot more social ques as i have aged and gain experience. And this is a constant reminder, on troubles i face on the daily. Being autistic isnt a vilification for any action, but it also needs to be takin into account. And what the persons original intent was aswell as where they are on the spectrum.
Saying autism is a lump some cover for hanus intent is a lie and dispicable
But just like how autism is a spectrum and not just one diagnosis, there should be a moving range of understanding.
"High-functioning autism was historically an autism classification where a person exhibits no intellectual disability, but may experience difficulty in communication, emotion recognition, expression, and social interaction."
In this refrence from wikipedia, it clearly states high functioning autsim stuggles with communication, and this true.
I do not tell alot of people im autistic because many people see autism as down syndrome. Which i sympathize for but try to inform them that autism is a spectrum. Many people including close friends didnt believe me when i said i was autistic. Because in qoute "i didnt act weird" i have grown alot as a person through out the years and appreciate all the effort from my family and therapists to get to this point.
There are still certain textures and sounds that upset me, but i can now tolorate them.
She explicitly told you that you were creepy and to stop stalking her. I don't know what more you could expect from someone. You don't get to decide if your behavior makes someone else uncomfortable or not.
I suggest you reread, i do agree autism is not blanket excuse. However i did explain in detail that i was not stalking, or following her around in a creepy manor. I did this to ALL my friends, and all interactions where consentual. I did not harras or berate anyone who didnt want to talk. Many interactions included the phrase "do you want to chat on the way to class" to which i forgot to add for better context.
Also for better clarity
(Girl) never said to fuck off
(Girls friend) did.
If (girl) wanted me to fuck off she should have self advocated and say i dont want to be friends with you.
Because as stated "shes didnt want to be Romantic and just wanted to be friends" to which i did stop saying she looked niced and other things that could be takin as Romantic, and simply had small talk, asking about her day, talking about teachers and upcoming assignments.
Also i must add using autism as a lump sum to cover up creepy shit is not right.
But i find rather moronic in your use case as you lump "all my autistic friends dont do that"
May i remind you that autism is a spectrum, not one person is the exact as the other. And added context would be beneficial if they were also high functioning. Comparing people on the spectrum is rarely ever apple to apples.
"My one autistic friend starts screaming and crying when his peas touch his corn on his plate"
Compared to
"My friend misses social ques and struggles with communication"
"High-functioning autism was historically an autism classification where a person exhibits no intellectual disability, but may experience difficulty in communication, emotion recognition, expression, and social interaction."
Yes I very well understand its a spectrum but that doesn't mean you can write a blank pass for yourself and claim 'it's just a special aspect of my autism so I can't be blamed for objectively bad actions on my part'
If you have difficulty understanding emotion then use logic and analytical thinking to help. and to help you understand I'll be very clear and direct - I am telling you this because it's practical and useful advice which will improve the quality of your life.
Deaf children have to be taught that farts make noise, likewise in think maybe you don't realize how obviously manipulative you're being in telling this story and how you're arguing about it - this is what will drive people away and make your life harder, like the deaf kid might not know that people can hear him coming but the noise is loud to other people, you might feel that people can't tell you're trying to be manipulative about it and logic her into having to be nice to you but to her and her friend it's as loud as a moaning orgasm.
Logically you can devise simple heuristics to determine appropriate actions, s good one is to consider the actions of the other person and how they compare to the easiest path towards their possible intent. For example in any conversation the person will either want to continue it or end it, however they likely will want to remain polite and kind so won't be pushy or rude - are they adding to the conversation, continuing it, picking it up when it flags or are they giving short answers, mostly answering rarely asking?
The way you describe your conversations with her sounds like you're trapping her with her desire to be polite. For example 'do you want to talk to me' is a question most people wouldn't ask because it forces the person to pick beteeen two potentially negative options; yes or rudeness. It's why you'd generally hear it couched with a soft exit or left unsaid and replaced with an open invitation like 'oh maths is next, the homework was so boring' allowing them to end the conversation with something like 'yeah...' or start it with 'yeah, I didn't even read all the questions it was so boring...'
Of course it's not an exact science but it's very easy to see trends, if you saw a graph with all the conversation trajectories overlaid and it was all one person starting them and the other person taking the path of least resistance and rudeness towards ending them then you wouldn't need to know anything else to know she's not interested.
From her perspective you're seeking her out and trapping her in conversations that she can't politely get out of - especially because she likely doesn't want to hurt your feelings and likely has genuine affection for you as a human and a friend - however that affection does not mean she wants you stalking her or constantly popping up with 'hi, do you want to talk to me' traps.
So to go back to where we started, you can say that you weren't being creepy but what you mean is you didn't intend to be creepy. Seeking her out and trapping her in conversations feels creepy to her, to her it feels annoying and awkward because she doesn't want to be direct but you push her into it time and time again then even when she does you make it more awkward by trying to litigate it and argue your point and telling her that she's wrong about her feelings - people hste that, I bet you would too.
And here's an elephant in the room I'll make explicit because I know you might overlook it otherwise, when you're so ready with a link to Wikipedia explaining how your actions are justified by your autism it makes it very obvious that you're using this to explain why she's wrong to feel like she does. This is one of the many reasons that she's uncomfortable saying no to loaded questions like 'do you want to talk to me' no one wants to look like the assholw who's rude to the special needs kid. Yeah that's a hard pill but it's reality, if you want her to think of you as a nice, interesting and not creepy guy then you have to act like that - you can't use logic and manipulative conversational tricks to force her into emotions.
And yeah don't worry if you try a bit people will let you off a huge amount of mistakes and cringe but not because you're autistic, just because you're interesting and fun to know without being too much of a burden or bore.
As an autistic woman who dates and befriends a lot of autistic people... everyone here was autistic. This is why people with autism really need to learn communication skills and how to respect boundaries. Given that this was high school, that compounds the issues (high schoolers have very little social skills).
The first boundary violation was him telling her that he liked her every day for 2 weeks. Like even telling someone once can cross emotional boundaries, doing it every day is a LOT. For a high schooler. I am pretty nice to homeless people and sometimes they tell me they love me. None of them have done it every day for two weeks. That's odd af behavior. When she tried to communicate that, she did it badly (but really who ever is in this situation??), and OP disagreed with her feelings (not a debate) and basically said he'd keep walking with her because he wanted to. That's the second boundary violation. Then keeps violating boundaries after they amplify hostile behaviors. It's like petting a rattlesnake and getting bit, despite the snake warning you repeatedly to go away.
Autism, OCD, and low serotonin can be comorbid, and OCD in particular is associated with stalking and obsessive behaviors. Not every person with OCD will stalk ofc though.
There's already kind of a "shortage" of autistic women who are willing to date men, and then they run into guys like this and get sworn off it. The lack of communication is the main problem, but also it's hard for people to have similar special interests. One of my friends dated a guy who started to develop a special interest in taxidermy and made a long cloak of rat skins including the tail. It did not smell good or look good. She is a vegan veterinarian. It was a huge conflict.
That and the whole if someone says no and you continue... You are now harassing someone. Those are the people that give a bad wrap to so many people. No means no. If you don't mean no, don't say it, or message them later saying you were nervous or some shit and just reacted out of fear. But it is on them once they said no. They shut the door. You don't keep knocking and trying to kick it in and expect to not be considered a threat.
Women like to be chased. It's an ego boost for them, they like the attention.
Women also hate indicating consent. They like consent, but they hate indicating it. Because if she never says yes she can have you arrested for sexual assault/rape/whatever. Women LOVE hurting people if they have bad feelings and that's a great way to hurt people, they won't give that up for ANYTHING.
They want to be chased, so they don't say yes because that would end the chase. They don't want to imply consent to continue to chase, so they don't say things like "not yet" or "you'll have to do better than that." That would give up their "ruin this man's life on a whim for free" card. So they say no. Man says "okay have a nice night" and walks away forever. Woman posts video on Tiktok asking where all the good men have gone.
I've been fed that line a lot. "Every single woman is a completely unique snowflake that cannot be compared to any other person, place or thing."
Sure. /s it is completely invalid to address tendencies in women's collective behavior. /s. It's not like women are massively effected by trends or peer pressure to conform to their in-group or anything. /s. This line totally isn't an intellectually dishonest non-argument designed to shut down any discussion you don't like without valid rebuttal. /s
So if I find one woman who disagrees with your claim ("women hate indicating consent"), you'll concede your argument is faulty? Because I've known several.
If you modify your argument to "Some women..." then that's slightly more defensible , but not really meaningful because there's all sorts of people. You could probably find someone who believes anything.
If you want to say "most women" then you're going to need to show your work.
No I don't because only the Sith deal in absolutes. You obviously have nothing of value to say other than pedantic bitching about your own inability to grasp generalizations. Goodbye.
Condescension, attacks on my person, I still haven't heard any actual rebuttal. Other than "You said 'women' plural so nothing you ever say can possibly be correct" do you have anything to say about what I've said?
Would you read a book or two? There's "Delusions for Gender" by Cordelia Fine and "Sex, Lies, and Bran Scans", both of which talk about gender, sex, and brains and how humans in general all think alike. We are more alike than we are different.
Quoting the image in the original post, apparently made by a person with a woman's picture as their avatar:
Do you notice that men are no longer persuasive? Once they ask you out on a date and you say No. That's it 😑
This implies she wants men to continue persuing her after she's said no. This is not a unique sentiment from women; I have seen many women making Tiktok videos saying basically this. "Why aren't men approaching women anymore?" "Where have all the men gone?" "Why am I not being asked out?" "Why did he take me seriously when I said no?" Why do you think they're like this?
I specifically said this isn't the first or only time I've seen this sentiment expressed so I'm not extrapolating from a sample size of one, you are a dishonest person, and
You're not the only person this hour to pull this "AHA! You said 'women', plural, which means nothing you ever say can be correct, QED" bullshit. Do they teach that in gender studies class or something?
It makes sense you'd have to ask what they teach in a gender studies class. You definitely strike me as someone who hasn't seen a college campus. Too many women there, right? And as the queen pickme, you'd feel too inadequate.
Everybody here is saying it's feminism or metoo. But if she's been dating for long enough to notice these differences, then she might just be getting older.
Teenagers will spend a lot of time wooing the person they want. Middle-aged people have no time and will simply move on to the next person who's not playing games.
Teenagers will spend a lot of time wooing the person they want. Middle-aged people have no time and will simply move on to the next person who’s not playing games.
Bingo. Adults have no time for stupid games. Kids do.
i mean if it's noticeable, then that's a great success for metoo. it brought attention to the importance of consent and the ability to give consent. to the idea that no doesn't mean try harder and more forcefully, but that no means no.
that's awesome. it's not over, but it's progress...
... then out of nowhere someone comes along and says "you ever notice men aren't as rapey as before? what's up with that?"
The only time I was "persuasive" with someone she was taller than me, had military training and explicitly told me that she wanted me not to be a feminist around her.
You're replying to someone else. We were on a tinder date, watching a movie and when she had to go she mentioned while giggling and blushing "You're a feminist but when it comes to the bedroom, I don't want you to be a feminist" to me and then left. Later, she invited me over, and I didn't behave like a feminist. So that was fun, and it wasn't the last time she invited me, either.
I still legitimately didn't know what it means to not "be a feminist" with regards to sexual relations. Like, don't treat her as an equal, so be a selfish lover who doesn't care if she gets off as long as you do? Or more like the original post, don't concern yourself with "feminist" concepts like consent and just start having sex with her without asking her if she wants to? Just be a caveman who takes what he wants, when he wants it? I know that there are plenty of women who are into that sort of thing, so no kink shaming, I justed wanted to be sure I knew what we were actually talking about.
do note that a lot of autistic people specifically relate to robot characters in media and rather depend on explicit markings to have a chance of knowing when people are sarcastic or joking.
IMO, a lot of this "lady's" complaint is a result of equality, and the "me too" movement (and related concepts). None of which is bad. I'll make that clear. This is not a bad thing.
Guys are respecting me, and leaving me alone when I say so? Omg, what a fucking shocker. Something that should have always been the case is happening and she's.... What? Upset about it?
Does she want to date rapists? People who would physically and emotionally force themselves on their victims? That's the exact behavior we're trying to eliminate. WTF?
Lady, as a guy, I want to inform you that, we're not the problem here.
If you like someone, and they ask you on a date, say yes. It's that simple.
There's a weird hyper-romanticized idea of men sweeping women off their feet with grand gestures and soul moving ballads.
But these tend to be storybook romances that imply the woman is pinning for the man and just looking for an excuse to say yes.
What's Prince Charming supposed to do when you say you're not interested? Just stare at you like a whipped dog and making whimpering sounds until you come around?
Idk, lady. If hitting on people is so easy, why don't you try it?
Saw a girl post a video talking about "Men aren't persistent anymore. My father asked out my mother and she said no, she was a waitress and he kept asking until she agreed to go out with him. My uncle did the same thing with my aunt, she was a cruise director and he was in the band on the ship, and he kept on asking what will it take for you to go out with me?"
Miss, your father and uncle grew up in a time when you could pay your college tuition working at Steak & Shake, get a white collar breadwinning job by looking the manager in the eye and giving him a firm handshake, buy a house for $20,000 and ask out a coworker without being fired. Here in 2024 saying "Hey do you want to go out for coffee sometime" is a career ending move. Asking out a waitress is how you signal the manager to ask you to leave the bar or restaurant. Compared to the 80's or 90's women in the United States handle being asked out very badly. "The worst she can say is no" is very much no longer the case. So if he even bothers to shoot his shot at all anymore "persistence" isn't even in his head.
One of my favorite things to witness (usually via video) is someone being persistent, to the point of annoyance, bring told "no" every time, with varying degrees of profanity mixed in.... Then when something happens that makes the annoying person who is persistent finally stop (usually involving physical violence), they say "all you had to do was say no!"
Aaaahahahaha. You were an annoying little shit and wouldn't take no for an answer despite being told no repeatedly. You deserved what you got, you dumb fuck.
Yeah everyone has their own limit before it becomes a problem. There are some women out there who are taking to Tiktok asking "why don't men approach me at work anymore?" She's outright open to it. There are women out there who will overlook an unwanted advance or two if it isn't a recurring problem. And there are some women out there whose limit is "any attention at all whatsoever. Catcalling should be a felony #metoo." There are men who report being disciplined or fired for so much as saying "I like that outfit." How many mines do you have to plant in a field before you start calling it a minefield?
In any case it certainly makes "being persistent" sound like a very bad strategy, doesn't it? I think we can label that strategy well and truly dead.
There are men who report being disciplined or fired for so much as saying “I like that outfit.”
I work in this area, and in my experience, there is way more going on than just a compliment about an outfit whenever someone is getting disciplined. Employees who claim that usually have no ability to self-reflect about the extent or appropriateness of their behaviour.
I'm not saying it couldn't be. I'm not convinced it isn't either. But I will say I've known women who not only want to play that game, I've known women who want to tell you no and have you take what you want anyway, and they don't always have that conversation with you before hand.
they don’t always have that conversation with you before hand.
Well, see, there's the problem. If you're into CNC, you need to have the conversation with someone, and you still need to establish safewords and shit, so that one person doesn't think it's CNC while the other person is experiencing sexual assault.
Oh, and the women that are into CNC are not into just anyone doing that; they still want it to be 'safe'. Or safely un-safe.
I’ve known women who want to tell you no and have you take what you want anyway
...and I've met women who will say that because it sounds smart at the moment. They maybe genuinely wanting to play a little bit of a game within reason, but when speaking on the topic they will just casually forget about the nuance and insist on "no does not mean no, don't give up boy" BS.
They don't realize that saying that in a group of reasonable polite people, assuming we all know what it really means (play just a little bit), it's not entirely BS, but if there's a desperate sociopath/stalker with no ability to respect limits properly there somewhere, then they might just take it as justification for rape.
Nah I've experienced that myself. I spent years kicking myself for taking 'no' as 'no' from this one girl (we were teens) only to be told she wanted me to keep persisting. It took a long time for me to realize that she wasn't worth it.
Totally agree. Why do all these people care so much that one person online is claiming to not get that... Also id bet money an andrew tate type is the real poster lol. So the incel part to me is that all these people have such strong reactions to a nothing burger. Just an excuse to be angry at an imaginary woman.
Like if i posted 2+2=5 id obviously be wrong but it wouldn't be reposted and obessed over like this because incels couldnt use that as an excuse to be angry at a woman. Make sense?
It's the Internet, my first assumption was that it's fake. Even if it's not fake the idea that a specific individual may hold an ignorant opinion doesn't offend me.
That's good lol. I feel like you think I'm talking about you specifically with the incel comment and im not. i just mean look at all the other comments and upvotes from people foaming at the mouth to be upset at a woman theyve never heard of before.
Don't you think that they're giving off incel vibes?
Yeah no I understood, I can tell a lot of people here are probably incels (this is Lemmy). I also don't understand why straight men (specifically incels) hate women so much and yet they crave them so much. It's just something that as an AroAce Transfem I find it hard to comprehend.
Yeah no I understood, I can tell a lot of people here are probably incels (this is Lemmy). I also don't understand why straight men (specifically incels) hate women so much and yet they crave them so much. It's just something that as an AroAce Transfem I find it hard to comprehend.
Having gone through an incel phase myself when I was younger, It's frustration and insecurity about not being able to get attention from women and then projecting any negative experiences they have or hear about other dudes having onto all women. That's easier than putting themselves out there and trying to form relationships and potentially facing rejection. Then they go online and reinforce each other's beliefs instead of trying to lift themselves up.
I'm very glad I was able to make friends with better people and get myself out of that mindset. Admittedly I'm still single now but I have a lot of female friends that like me as a person, which is nice.
cracks knuckles Let's piss some people off tonight.
This is sound mating strategy for homo sapiens.
Take yourself out of generational context. Forget religion, social mores and written history. Think back 100,000 years. Think game theory. Think only in terms of selfish genes.
A promiscuous female is a loss for the male. Whose kid is he raising? Massive waste for the male if it's not his genes.
(Insert note regarding the hypothesis as to why our dicks are shovel shaped. Add observations of male mammals killing their rival's offspring and note how we see this in modern men.)
A child requires an extraordinary output of time and energy, for both parties, far more than other mammals. Childbirth is also extraordinarily dangerous for big-brained primate females; big heads, helpless infancy and so forth.
The female needs her mate to stick around and care for her and her child during pregnancy through early child rearing. After all, she's going to be the very definition of handicapped for a couple of years. (Insert note regarding the hypothesis that grandmothers partially fill this role and why women live longer.) If she hasn't been picky and chosen a solid mate, her and her child may well die.
Now the male has to push back against this resistance. If he's not the type to push, he doesn't make babies, pass on his genes. To put a finer point on it, if he's not attracted enough to effort the chase, he may be a slut who will run off. Refer to previous paragraph.
tl;dr: Evolution selected for hard-to-get females and pushy males.
What you're essentially describing here is evolutionary psychology. Now, I won't go as far as some have to say that it's an entirely bunk field of study, primarily because I'm nowhere near qualified to make those claims. But I will say that it's a field that has received a lot of criticism for being full of poor science and "just-so" stories without a basis in good science, and that even if some aspects of the field are valid, it has frequently been misapplied in popscience to promote incel/alt-right worldviews.
The thing that makes me chuckle is how these evolutionary psychology little stories always forget the most basic thing: humans are social animals that live in clans.
I expected this response because I frequently used the word "female". This is a biology discussion, not a sociological one. I tried to take care to set and keep the tone scientific and not "in common parlance". And perhaps I failed.
As to "incel", I've had 50+ lovers in this life, the very opposite of involuntarily celibacy. What this says about my psychological needs, well, I've been thinking on that lately, not liking my own reflection. Thank god I'm with my wife and those days seem at a close.
As to the science of my post, I welcome challenges! Challenges to my ideas are how I learn.
Now imagine this: Every now and again a species makes a great evolutionary leap. Men respecting women's decisions and women being honest about what they want could be the next stage of human evolution.
We can change and history and genetics show that our cultural choices really do influence our evolution.
Add observations of male mammals killing their rival's offspring and note how we see this in modern men.
No, we don't see this. Men do not routinely kill their rivals' offspring and, if they did, the mother would want them locked up.
Most of your logic implicitly assumes that males and females pair up. The game theory is quite different otherwise. What makes you think that our ancestors 100,000 years ago did this, when you're explicitly comparing them to mammal species that don't?
Yeah, this is some evolutionary psychology shit. A subject that is pure bullshit, we simply do not know enough about a biological history, or how the brain developed, and works, to truly, accurately, ascribe psychological phenomenon directly to evolutionary considerations.
The lack of evidence is one thing, but his argument contradicts itself.
He says that:
the heavy investment that women make in their offspring means that they go to great lengths to make sure that their partners are committed
we observe modern men killing their (the women's) offspring in the expectation that those women will turn around and have children with them instead.
Apparently, the women failed to select fathers who would stick around to defend their offspring, and they're happy to mate with men who kill the children that they have invested so much in. This strategy is clearly bad, so evolution would select against it.
Others have hammered on how incorrect this is but I do want to point one thing out
the female needs her mate to stick around and care for her and her child during pregnancy through early child rearing
This is assuming a 1950s style atomic family unit which is an extremely new concept. Evidence suggests our shared pre-agriculture ancestors lived in small hunter gatherer groups. These groups would share responsibilities, like a family, but not necessarily all be closely related. "it takes a village to raise a child" and everything.
Playing hard to get is a big fucking red flag. It shows a lack of maturity and a lack of truthfulness. It also shows a willingness to be deceitful to your partner.
This, right here. Don't date people who play mindgames. Start a relationship the way you mean for it to continue; with open and honest communication.
Yes, obviously flirting is about dropping hints, and that's fine, but at the point where the hinting stops and one party says "I'm into you and I hope you're into me too", there should be no bullshit. If you like someone you show them the basic respect of saying what you fucking mean.
I mean, I'm more than happy to play along for the sake of having a playful time... but come on.. don't waste weeks of my life
Ain't nobody got time for that shit.
"playing hard to get" is a female fantasy, not a male one. She likes the idea that she's so HIIIIIIIIIEYEIIIIGH, high above me, she's so lovely that I'm willing to throw my family in a canyon to prove my worth to her. Boosts her delusions of grandeur.
There is a certain kind of men who do enjoy the chase. They call themselves "pickup artists." Normal men are either looking for something casual or something long term, and in both cases they're interested in finding a woman who is also looking for similar terms and don't really want that chore maximized or complicated beyond what it already is.
Women do not know how to play hard to get. They implement "hard to get" as "flatly refuse." I think a separate hatred of expressing consent is why they don't say something like "You'll have to do better than that."
Have you ever been inside a sex club?
If you spend even 20 minutes in a sex club, you can watch and see numerous examples of how you're wrong. It might help you understand the sexual behavior and cues of women.
Sex clubs?? What? No. Most people people learn in normal ways. Also "the sexual behavior and cues of women" is such a creepy way to put that
Sex clubs are normal. They are legal venues where you can watch people interact. Given that it's a sex club, the interactions are usually sexual. You'd be able to see women doing things like saying no clearly and not minding that at all - that's actually part of the culture of sex clubs and sex positive spaces.
I don't think it's creepy and I'm a woman. What verbiage would you prefer, since you're a man who needs to police how women talk about other women. Tell me what would help you not feel like a victim when I discuss watching women at a sex club, who are there ostensibly to be watched in the first place.
I think it's more that you're scared of rejection and women having choices. You're too much of a coward to even try to go to one and just see. You watch porn right? But irl, that's too intimate and you might start seeing these women as people. Can't have that.
The person you unloaded that reply on wasn't even the one you originally replied to. Are you okay?
Before you get too affronted by my maybe not super politic words below, understand that you should imagine me in chaps, a chest harness, and a bull horns headpiece if it's the Halloween Munch, vibing.
A sex club is to advanced empathy as differential equations are to little Timmy's arithmetic problem, do you not realize this?
It's a firehouse turned upon hearing someone say their mouth is a mite dry. It's just the reality: They're literally categorized as 'non-mainstream' spaces precisely because they do not easily fit the currently mainstream view on sexuality or mores, pretty much nowhere.
Not to mention, not the environment to throw in those you suspect of bigotry or misogyny jeez, they're supposed to be spaces kept clear of that sort of baggage and drama so their purpose can remain clear, consensual, and to the point.
No organizer is going to host a "gawk at our ladies react, learn our etiquette" event, and if they did, that would only maybe help the sort of folk you're accusing these people of being mask and pass at the Munch.
Not improve their lives long term in any way. There is a reason why you still have to get to a dedicated space to see the things you mention play out as normally as they do, where they are maximally normalized.
People generally can't act how they do in there in any other social setting and they're spaces where the things you learn can only translate to your life in some ways (more compassion, better lover, learn to seek and engended enthusiastic consent, etc) but even that generally requires the person going to be arriving ready to take some learning out.
I don't care if you've been pegged in front of everyone at a sex club, that doesn't make you the leading authority on them. And you certainly aren't the leading authority on women's comfort.
I think sex clubs are a great starter and much better than strip clubs or porn theatres. Sex clubs usually have people from all ages and backgrounds, and often have ice breaker event nights like game night, karaoke, bondage, etc. Sex Clubs and kink, like Lemmy, are full of autistic nerds. So much so that I have noticed my subs who play DnD are genuinely better at roleplay and metadiscussions compared to ones who haven't played.
Also, his behavior isn't a risk to others because sex clubs (not Munch) are private clubs with rules that you have to sign to enter, and people monitoring activity. He has to follow the rules which includes consent, and yes they allow new people into sex clubs no problem. Building community is one of the best ways to get someone to change their mindset. There's plenty of misogyny in those spaces without you blaming me, a woman, for it. Yet again men try to make women responsible for their bullshit. What have you said to the poster to help him deconstruct his toxic masculinity and sex phobia? Or do you only have the energy to be shitty to the only obvious woman here?
Voyeurism is 10000000% allowed at sex clubs and it is what the majority of people there do. Most people do not get busy in front of others. And the people who do are often exhibitionists who like that. That's literally the point of the sex club.
The reason sex clubs are a dedicated space is so people can consent to seeing sex acts happening and being around sex acts. The entire point is that it is founded in consent for those acts at the start. That is what makes it "alternative" - the consent itself, not the acts taking place per se, which are normal in a bedroom setting. That others consent to see it and treat it as a norm is where it becomes alternative. OP would get a masterclass in consent and how it works in front of his eyes. It would probably benefit him.
You are off your rocker, and dangerous to those you share a play space with, wow. I pray you're that visibly unhinged where others can be warned before they risk their reputations, sanity, or comfort near you.
My daughter is almost 5 and I’ve made a conscious effort to stop doing whatever I’m doing if she says stop or no.
For example, tickling. If I’m tickling and she says stop, I stop immediately with no back talk.
Or if I’m copying her in a joking way (we both do it to each other from time to time) and she says stop, that’s it. We’re done.
When I’m snuggling with her after reading books before bed, she feels comfortable enough to say, “you can go now” and I that’s it. I leave with no complaints.
In non-safety situations I ask if I can hold her hand. If she says no, that’s it, I’m not holding her hand. Parking lots are a different matter.
I will continue this throughout her entire upbringing so that if (ok, when) someone continues to do something she has said stop or no to, it will be unambiguously wrong to her.
Later when I explain that “no” is a complete sentence, it should feel intuitive.
Screw the haters. This is awesome. Keep it up.
My only concern with this is that she might get the impression that people will do whatever she asks, but there's a ton of context missing which likely demonstrates those concepts to her.
My only suggestion is to make it clear that if she says no, or stop, and someone doesn't stop, do something about that. I'm sure that will be a discussion later. She sounds young enough for it to not be very important right now.
I appreciate this.
I don't have kids and I'm just some guy on the internet, but I appreciate you nonetheless.
I'm sure she'll learn in other ways that people won't always respect when she says no. But she's learning what should be normal from her parents
We've been doing this with our kids; and when they say "no" and someone doesn't stop, you better believe they say something about it!
Similarly, we've been getting consent before the doctor checks any underwear space. No pushback from any doctors or nurses for that either.
I think that you probably need to make some exceptions for doctors, etc., since children will say 'no' to things that they actually need, like vaccines, or dental work.
The older one just had a dental appointment today, and was uncomfortable with some of the procedures. My wife talked him through things along with the hygenist, and for a few things she took a different approach he was more comfortable with.
With vaccine reluctance, we generally go straight to bribes. We treat ourselves after doing something like that anyway, so why not them?
So far, we haven't had any issues yet!
I'm really trying to do this with my daughter too - she's 7 and it's getting hard at times because she's wanting space, but I'll give her that as she wants it. Unless it is safety related of course...
This is so sweet and awesome it made my morning
Some advice my parents gave me is: Theres two answers: yes, and everything else
An example of this with me and my gf is that this being my first relationship I am wanting to take this REALLY slow and she respects this. But anyways I don’t remember what she asked it was something pretty tame but I said “maybe” and she responded with “that wasn’t a no but it wasn’t an enthusiastic yes either”
Boy is she in for a ride awakening when she goes out into the world. Kids like yours don't fare well when their world view gets shattered the first time.
You must have missed this part:
It should feel wrong to her. That's the point. And there will be explanations later that not everyone respects the first "stop" or "no" and that she should do something about those people.
She will learn about guns and I will offer to help her get a license to carry. I'm afraid those that would not respect her "stop" or "no" will be the ones getting their world view shattered.
It's kind of strange that you seem to believe I won't be able to explain this...
I've already had to explain that she can completely ignore people, including adults, who say things like, "god will punish you" and she's not even 5 yet.
You're a moron and I'm sorry for your failed upbringing.
I mean isn't that most kids though? First time or in the world no matter how you do it is a shock.
What OP is doing is just the first steps to what I'm guessing is going to be a continuing education about how is ok to say no and should be respected. It isn't the end of the road for the conversation about no
I think they do much better because they understand they are allowed to set boundaries and expect people to respect those. That's actually really healthy. IDK what the hell kind of weird scenarios you are imagining.
Would you rather op ignore their daughter's "no" so the first time a random man ignores it, it's normal to her?
What argument are you even making here? That women should feel the need to say yes to everything?
Why are you so feckin upset about a kid being taught to say no
You need cattle to make a burger.
Bet you are the “No means yes” type of guy
Children are, at some point, going to learn that the world is an awful place. This is inevitable. But it will go much better for them if, like in the example you're responding to, they've been equipped with the tools required to navigate that awfulness.
What would you prefer? That they teach their child never to exercise any autonomy over their own body? How is that preferable?
Weird, because I’m surrounded by these types of people in my professional jobs.
There’s also a difference between crossing personal boundaries and professional politics.
Punch your daughter and exploit her labor for your personal profit
Gilbert Gottfried impression
just
FUCK
ALREADY
Honestly, we aren't much different now - the main thing is we've tried to make "no" a safe word
That's a pretty rapey song, especially considering the time period. I like the song, but when we performed it, the gender roles were reversed at least.
It's not a rapey song. Yes, to modern us it sounds like it was made by Dennis Reynolds, but no it's not. Before looking too deeply at the lyrics, just ask yourself first, "does it make any sense you write a Christmas duet about raping a woman?" No, it doesn't. It's a playful song about making excuses to stay together longer. It's kind of a crap song anyway, so I'm not even saying this to defend a sign I like; I'd be happy to never hear it again.
You are correct about this song, but keep in mind, one of the most popular wedding songs is "Every Breath You Take", a song about stalking someone. So, I could def see a duet being made like that.
Key & Peele made an awesome sketch with this song
"No means no" means "no means no." You don't get to have it both ways!
Look, lady, we went through decades of the women's lib movement to finally get guys to respect your wishes and quit harassing you with unwanted advances. But now you expect us to be clairvoyant or some shit when you say "no" but don't really mean it?!
Fuck that! You get respected whether you like it or not.
If I had a dollar for every girl that found me unattractive, girls would find me attractive.
Oh man that's a good paradox.
"I'm disappointed that other women have ruined my fetish of being harassed" - toxic feminism enjoyer.
I went home with a lady friend, who invited me into her bed, then said that we're not going to do anything. So, I didn't even try, and we just talked and cuddled. FF to two years later, and we start dating, and she questioned why I didn't try anything that night. Like, duh. A lady says no, it means no. That is what I've had drilled into me as a male since I was a very young age. I'm so damn scared of being called for sexual harassment.
You did the right thing. I helped a lady friend move out from her husband's when they split. She didn't want to stay in a new apartment all alone, so I offered to spend the night on her couch. Well come time to bed down, she wanted me in her bed. Then she wanted to snuggle. Then she started rubbing her backside against my front.
Well I read the signs and we had sex. It was fine. Wind up dating for a bit. Like 3 weeks later we were talking about something and she lays on me, "I never said we could have sex so technically you raped me."
You do not fucking accuse someone of technically rape as playful banter. Things went awkward and downhill after that. Not solely because of that. She was not ready for a relationship that soon after splitting from her husband, but I was young and horny and too inexperienced to possess the level of maturity necessary to understand that.
Anyway, maybe if I had made sure to give her more time it would've gone better. Probably not. But I damn sure wouldn't have gotten accused of rape.
Technically she raped you too...
I'm not that technical. I was trying really hard to be a good guy but I definitely wanted to fuck her. That whole façade of maturity crumbled at my first opportunity.
It was all bullshit, technically and otherwise. But there's something about a woman looking at you and saying you raped her that undoes you. There was probably a time in my life after that when I was in danger of going full incel. But I didn't and here we are. We were both young and dumb and I'm sure she could never have known how deeply that cut.
Yeah... Puuh. That's not a normal thing to say. If it's dark humor, and said with irony, it might be perfectly fine, and even funny. Because then, they don't actually mean it. But, if they do mean it? Sheesh. You dodged a poison leaded bullet.
Hard to explain exactly. I think she meant it humorously, except in a way where she kinda meant it? I think it was in the context of her ex sexually abusing her and me saying I was nothing like that.
It's not cool to say, "my ex was a crazy bitch." I was no paragon of maturity myself. But I do think she had some issues. She was about 22 (I think that's how old I was) and that had been her second marriage, and there were issues with how we treated one another that spoke to both of our immaturities.
I think the whole thing lasted about 3 months, so it wasn't like it was so bad that I instantly left. But it sticks in my craw nearly thirty years later. On some level, she meant that. And she probably told her next partner I was part of the pattern of abuses she suffered—waving her damage around like a broken wing looking for... something.
She's probably grown up by now. Most of us do. Those are some really awkward years for a lot of us.
ETA: Thinking on it, the thing is she was trying to bring me down to her ex's level. She was joking that I shouldn't hold myself above the guy who abused her. That's just not funny even in a playful way. No matter how tee hee you say it, that's toxic as fuck.
I'm not scared. For me, that's like being afraid of being accused of murder.
Oh, certainly not!
Quite right. No one is going to accuse me of murder because I have never, and would never murder anyone. Same is true if sexual harassment or assault.
No one will ever misconstrue my actions as sexual harassment or assault because...surprise...I don't do those things. All sexual contact I have with people is wholly consensual, and consent is acquired with no pressure on the other party(-ies), in a sober state, and in advance.
The only way I'm ever going to be accused of any wrongdoing toward another human...harassment, assault, murder, or otherwise...is if someone has a vendetta against me because I chose to not tolerate their bullshit for whatever reason. In which case, I have a wealth of friends and exes who would be very happy to serve as character references.
In short: If you are worrying about being accused of sexual harassment or assault, then you are approaching relationships wrong.
But this is exactly what a murderer would say
https://media.tenor.com/-Cr1JqBDtfIAAAAM/you-missed-the-point-stick-animation.gif
It was a joke and you missed it
It was a joke that spoke well to a serious issue, and you missed that.
I am a big nerd when it comes to relationship theory. I heavily advocate for purposeful relationships in which each party makes it well-known what their wants, needs, dealbreakers, boundaries, STI status, etc. are well before clothes come off.
I regularly hear people reply, "Lol no, you start talking like that and she's gonna nope out because she's not gonna find that sexy at all." To which I reply, "Then maybe you're dating the wrong people." The people in my circles...men, women, and enbies alike...highly value consent, so when a potential partner starts this discussion, it is very, very sexy. It shows that they value our safety, sexual health, informed consent and bodily autonomy, and people like that are the only people for whom I will ever take my clothes off.
Yup, I'm a professional dominatrix and having these open conversations is a must. If done correctly, it invites deeper intimacy and helps the relationship grow - it doesn't drive people away. The only reason honesty would drive someone away, is exactly the reason you should be honest - so they can have informed consent about what's taking place and say no if they want to. If someone isn't allowed to say "no" in the first place, then whether they say yes is irrelevant. Can't consent if you can't dissent.
Not into much BDSM myself but I am polyam and date a lot of kinksters, so much love and respect to you. 😊
So, fun story. My ex-wife, when we were dating, told me that she was raped by her dad after her parents were divorced. She said that this was why sexual intimacy was difficult for her. (I urged her to go into couples therapy wth me. She refused.) When we were going to get married, she invited her dad to the wedding, and I asked her about that; she said that it was actually her mom's boyfriend that had raped her, not her dad. But she very, very definitely said her dad did it, and it was clear from the context surrounding the conversation at the time that she knew I was interpreting her statement as being about her biological father.
So there are a few possibilities here. First, both her mom's boyfriend and her dad raped her when she was a pre-teen. It's not impossible, but it seems improbable. And also, why invite one of her her rapists to her wedding, and why try to re-build a relationship with him? And why lie to me when I said WTF? Second, her father really did rape her, and the boyfriend didn't. Cool, now she's falsely accused her mom's ex- of rape, and is trying to build a relationship with her rapist. Third, the boyfriend raped her; but why did she tell me her father had? Why drag him through the mud? Why not say that it was her mom's BF in the first place? Fourth--and this is the one I lean towards--she was not raped by either, and it was a convenient excuse to give me to explain why she wasn't interested in sex with me without saying she didn't like sex. Given that the decade we were married was nearly sexless, and that she eventually claimed to be asexual (which I doubt, since I know for certain that her sex life once we split was far, far busier than it had been when we were dating or married), that's the one that seems most probable.
You did the right thing.
Honestly, this weird dichotomy of "playing hard to get" and expecting the guy to make a move after being told no is in the process of dying, but it could go faster.
I often wonder how much slut shaming has to do with women who expect/want this sort of behavior from men. Does it make them feel like they aren't "responsible" for the sexual encounter if the guy is pushy, therefore they aren't a slut?
I've always wondered about it since I hated pushy dudes when I was still dating. My husband had excellent manners and etiquette, that's what initially attracted me to him, so this one is a mystery.
Maybe one day someone can figure it out and explain it to me.
My husband and I met at a friend's house and both ended up staying the night. The friend went up to his room, my husband set up the pull out couch for me to lay on... and then went to go sleep on the recliner. It was fucking adorable and I'm pretty sure that right there was the moment I decided he needed to be mine. I laughed at him and told him he needed to get his ass over to the bed because there was no way we weren't going to at least cuddle after making eyes at each other for 6 hours straight, lol.
Respect is fucking hot. I don't understand guys who don't get that, or women who don't think the same way.
I understand it. They think respect and consent is weak and pathetic. They want 'strong' people who violate others boundaries.
Honestly, probably a lot. Women are every bit as horny as men are in their late teens and 20s, but there's a ton of social pressure on women to be both virgins and whores; not have sex, but be sexually desirable. (Meanwhile, men mostly get told that they're supposed to be ready to go all the time.) The old Christmas song, "Baby It's Cold Outside" relies on this whole trope; she wants to say yes, but she can't just say yes; she needs to have some excuse. And he knows that, so he's trying to give her the excuse she wants. But to our ears now it ends up sounding very rape-y.
this is 99% of it. It's about plausible deniability if things don't go well. it's all about pushing all the responsibility onto the man.
When have you ever met a woman admit to being bad at sex?
You did the right thing. She fumbled you.
I'm very curious how that conversation continued after you said no means no.
She was surprised at my answer, because it wasn't what other guys would have done. I guess ultimately she respected it because we dated for a few years.
https://youtube.com/shorts/y9GF-hPevZM?si=QPYpRKZ2JHwx6A1U
OK, if all you people over there are like this, and you still do have functional relationships, maybe I'm really just unlikable and don't constantly fail at reading the signs.
Or somehow only likable for the particular kind of women who communicate with signs only. There definitely, confidently were such cases, but!
Really hard to believe it's a cultural thing.
So, you aren't worried about sexually assaulting somebody? You're just worried about being caught?
Oh fuck off, you not only knew what they meant, you're being awfully dismissive of what even a claim of sexual assault can do to a person.
What do you think being sexually assaulted can do to a person?
What are you doing? There's no need for playing these games. You know exactly what people are saying and you're still instigating.
Don't feed the trolls
I was gonna say. Thanks.
You should be a basketball player if you can reach like that
They clearly said they didn't sexually assault her
And they clearly said the reason why they didn't do it was because they didn't want to be "called for sexual harassment". Not because they respect women and consent, but because they didn't want to be caught.
Dude you're being purposefully obtuse and pedantic. It's super lame. Nobody enjoys a conversation with someone who purposefully misunderstands you then starts arguing about it.
Don't feed the trolls
Can I introduce you to multivariate motivation?
What you said is a bit childish. No, definitely not scared of this because it will never happen. I'm not going to do this because I'll ensure there is consent first. Please read and understand what I said.. (edit: grammar)
Yeah lady, that's a good thing. Not only for safety, but because normal people don't like stupid head games or trying to guess "is she playing hard to get?"
Plus it seems to me that if somebody plays hard to get to stroke their ego about how desired they are, they are much more likely to end up with a partner that’s an overconfident or pushy asshole and might not be the most fun to share a life with.
That’s not an absolute rule of course. I’m sure it works for plenty of couples where the chase was fun and flirtatious. But that crap is not for me and thank goodness I’ve been married to a good person for a long-ass time.
So you are telling me girls don't expect
where you live?
While I'd probably think about changing countries were this true, not sure I can believe that.
There are some rare ones that don't. Once you find one, you are considered to have won the dating game.
I've met one once, but it seems that was only because she'd given up trying to make me notice those games.
At some point her patience ran out, and I haven't yet come up with a way (natural and not forced) to talk to her that would meet the condition she set then (if it's something romantic, then I should mean it and not wander around, and if it's art, then it should be clearly art, no nonsense ; and wandering around is my way of life, so).
I have occasionally thought that a woman might be looking for more pushback when they say no, but then I realize that's insane. I have to believe people when they say no because the alternative is a nightmare, and also I don't want to be with someone who doesn't say what they mean.
That's my point of view. I got enough BS going on with my life. I don't want to spend time talking to a partner that won't say what they mean.
I call that respecting a woman's decision. If OOP wants to play silly games then the correct answer is "Maybe".
There's a vast difference between a straight up no and opening a dialogue.
If I ask a girl out and she says sorry I have a boyfriend or sorry you're not my type or no thank you I'm just going to move on.
It's no skin off my back, thank you for letting me know before I waste of my time.
I just wish I had this same level of confidence in my teenage years as I do now.
Like you miss all of the shots that you don't take and I missed so many fucking shots.
I even had one girl laying on the bed next to me telling me about how she's had sex before and would like to try having sex again and I was like "well good luck with that, I mean, you're really pretty so you're probably not going to have any problems"
Oof
Yeah that one happened in my early teens, and so a part of me is glad I didn't because I definitely wasn't mature enough for that level of instant relationship and if it had not turned into a relationship I would have been completely destroyed, but there's another part of me that all these years later still regrets.
Ouch, she must have been frustrated after that. Hopefully next time she delivered her hint in the form of a question.
New green text drop.
--be me high functioning autistic, struggle with social ques.
--begin highschool, theres a cute girl.
--decide to be extra friendly, take every available moment to be beside her and friendly.
-- 2 months go by, still doesnt notice my intent. Decided to be blunt.
-- tell her i like her, romatically. Says cool and walks away,
-- autism engage.mp3
-- do the same shit for 2 weeks
-- she tells me she want to be friends, I respect her wishs tho saddened.
-- walk with her in-between classes like all my other friends.
-- she calls me creepy and to stop stalking her. I explain im not stalking im just being a friend and just enjoy talking inbetween class.
-- 2 weeks go by, she doesnt say anything about me being "creepy"
-- go to B lunch where i sit by myself cause friends have A lunch.
-- phone buzz.mp3
-- random number of text message with photo of me 20 seconds ago at lunch table.
-- panic issues, i message who dis. They reply, you dont need to know stop stalking (girls name). I explain its not stalking if i go up and say hello and talk to them.
-- they dont listen, they tell me to stop being creepy. I ask again who this was. No reply...
-- i tell them ill get the cops involved if they dont reval themselfs.
-- lunch ends, goes to math class. Asks (girl) what she know about random texter.
-- (girl) says no clue
-- day ends, sleep like shit because of creepy MF.
-- finally get response, im (girls friend)
-- i sit at lunch table following day with her and ask whats this is about.
-- she says (girl) says im a creepy stalker that follows her around and stares at her. And that (girl) asked her to do this. I explain i like talking to her, and she engages back in a mutal conversion. And that im autistic and zone out.
-- she still insists im a creep
-- confront (girl) in math class "Why did you lie about this, just tell me you dont want to be friends" Girl refuses to talk to me and spreads rumors of me being a creep.
-- MFW i dont miss highschool dating.
TLDR- women gaslights autism into stalking and give lasting insecurity issues.
Too believable to be a greentext
double space on the end of each line, and then delete the extra newline underneath
Lmao what is the point of making shit like this up?
Creepy guy uses excuse of autism to justify being creepy despite clear verbal instructions and explanation.
Autism is not an excuse to be act however you want, people give you leeway not free lichence. Failing to pick up cues is one thing but you don't need emotional intelligence to know that following someone around like that is not acceptable behavior. None of my medically diagnosed autistic friends stalk girls and they'd all understand clear and direct instructions.
Didja try reading the entire post?
This one is the part where he should have stopped talking to her.
My dude, the social que was missed. It was not verbalized what she wanted. The average person may have gotten the social que. But I did not, i missed it completely, which to some credit i should have inquired more about. But hindsight is 20/20, i understand alot more social ques as i have aged and gain experience. And this is a constant reminder, on troubles i face on the daily. Being autistic isnt a vilification for any action, but it also needs to be takin into account. And what the persons original intent was aswell as where they are on the spectrum.
Saying autism is a lump some cover for hanus intent is a lie and dispicable But just like how autism is a spectrum and not just one diagnosis, there should be a moving range of understanding.
"High-functioning autism was historically an autism classification where a person exhibits no intellectual disability, but may experience difficulty in communication, emotion recognition, expression, and social interaction." In this refrence from wikipedia, it clearly states high functioning autsim stuggles with communication, and this true. I do not tell alot of people im autistic because many people see autism as down syndrome. Which i sympathize for but try to inform them that autism is a spectrum. Many people including close friends didnt believe me when i said i was autistic. Because in qoute "i didnt act weird" i have grown alot as a person through out the years and appreciate all the effort from my family and therapists to get to this point. There are still certain textures and sounds that upset me, but i can now tolorate them.
She explicitly told you that you were creepy and to stop stalking her. I don't know what more you could expect from someone. You don't get to decide if your behavior makes someone else uncomfortable or not.
ASD here and i can absolutely see how that was presented to OP as and read as a misunderstanding that required clarification
I suggest you reread, i do agree autism is not blanket excuse. However i did explain in detail that i was not stalking, or following her around in a creepy manor. I did this to ALL my friends, and all interactions where consentual. I did not harras or berate anyone who didnt want to talk. Many interactions included the phrase "do you want to chat on the way to class" to which i forgot to add for better context.
Also for better clarity (Girl) never said to fuck off (Girls friend) did.
If (girl) wanted me to fuck off she should have self advocated and say i dont want to be friends with you.
Because as stated "shes didnt want to be Romantic and just wanted to be friends" to which i did stop saying she looked niced and other things that could be takin as Romantic, and simply had small talk, asking about her day, talking about teachers and upcoming assignments.
Also i must add using autism as a lump sum to cover up creepy shit is not right. But i find rather moronic in your use case as you lump "all my autistic friends dont do that"
May i remind you that autism is a spectrum, not one person is the exact as the other. And added context would be beneficial if they were also high functioning. Comparing people on the spectrum is rarely ever apple to apples. "My one autistic friend starts screaming and crying when his peas touch his corn on his plate" Compared to "My friend misses social ques and struggles with communication"
Also via wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-functioning_autism
"High-functioning autism was historically an autism classification where a person exhibits no intellectual disability, but may experience difficulty in communication, emotion recognition, expression, and social interaction."
Good day,
Yes I very well understand its a spectrum but that doesn't mean you can write a blank pass for yourself and claim 'it's just a special aspect of my autism so I can't be blamed for objectively bad actions on my part'
If you have difficulty understanding emotion then use logic and analytical thinking to help. and to help you understand I'll be very clear and direct - I am telling you this because it's practical and useful advice which will improve the quality of your life.
Deaf children have to be taught that farts make noise, likewise in think maybe you don't realize how obviously manipulative you're being in telling this story and how you're arguing about it - this is what will drive people away and make your life harder, like the deaf kid might not know that people can hear him coming but the noise is loud to other people, you might feel that people can't tell you're trying to be manipulative about it and logic her into having to be nice to you but to her and her friend it's as loud as a moaning orgasm.
Logically you can devise simple heuristics to determine appropriate actions, s good one is to consider the actions of the other person and how they compare to the easiest path towards their possible intent. For example in any conversation the person will either want to continue it or end it, however they likely will want to remain polite and kind so won't be pushy or rude - are they adding to the conversation, continuing it, picking it up when it flags or are they giving short answers, mostly answering rarely asking?
The way you describe your conversations with her sounds like you're trapping her with her desire to be polite. For example 'do you want to talk to me' is a question most people wouldn't ask because it forces the person to pick beteeen two potentially negative options; yes or rudeness. It's why you'd generally hear it couched with a soft exit or left unsaid and replaced with an open invitation like 'oh maths is next, the homework was so boring' allowing them to end the conversation with something like 'yeah...' or start it with 'yeah, I didn't even read all the questions it was so boring...'
Of course it's not an exact science but it's very easy to see trends, if you saw a graph with all the conversation trajectories overlaid and it was all one person starting them and the other person taking the path of least resistance and rudeness towards ending them then you wouldn't need to know anything else to know she's not interested.
From her perspective you're seeking her out and trapping her in conversations that she can't politely get out of - especially because she likely doesn't want to hurt your feelings and likely has genuine affection for you as a human and a friend - however that affection does not mean she wants you stalking her or constantly popping up with 'hi, do you want to talk to me' traps.
So to go back to where we started, you can say that you weren't being creepy but what you mean is you didn't intend to be creepy. Seeking her out and trapping her in conversations feels creepy to her, to her it feels annoying and awkward because she doesn't want to be direct but you push her into it time and time again then even when she does you make it more awkward by trying to litigate it and argue your point and telling her that she's wrong about her feelings - people hste that, I bet you would too.
And here's an elephant in the room I'll make explicit because I know you might overlook it otherwise, when you're so ready with a link to Wikipedia explaining how your actions are justified by your autism it makes it very obvious that you're using this to explain why she's wrong to feel like she does. This is one of the many reasons that she's uncomfortable saying no to loaded questions like 'do you want to talk to me' no one wants to look like the assholw who's rude to the special needs kid. Yeah that's a hard pill but it's reality, if you want her to think of you as a nice, interesting and not creepy guy then you have to act like that - you can't use logic and manipulative conversational tricks to force her into emotions.
And yeah don't worry if you try a bit people will let you off a huge amount of mistakes and cringe but not because you're autistic, just because you're interesting and fun to know without being too much of a burden or bore.
As an autistic woman who dates and befriends a lot of autistic people... everyone here was autistic. This is why people with autism really need to learn communication skills and how to respect boundaries. Given that this was high school, that compounds the issues (high schoolers have very little social skills).
The first boundary violation was him telling her that he liked her every day for 2 weeks. Like even telling someone once can cross emotional boundaries, doing it every day is a LOT. For a high schooler. I am pretty nice to homeless people and sometimes they tell me they love me. None of them have done it every day for two weeks. That's odd af behavior. When she tried to communicate that, she did it badly (but really who ever is in this situation??), and OP disagreed with her feelings (not a debate) and basically said he'd keep walking with her because he wanted to. That's the second boundary violation. Then keeps violating boundaries after they amplify hostile behaviors. It's like petting a rattlesnake and getting bit, despite the snake warning you repeatedly to go away.
Autism, OCD, and low serotonin can be comorbid, and OCD in particular is associated with stalking and obsessive behaviors. Not every person with OCD will stalk ofc though.
There's already kind of a "shortage" of autistic women who are willing to date men, and then they run into guys like this and get sworn off it. The lack of communication is the main problem, but also it's hard for people to have similar special interests. One of my friends dated a guy who started to develop a special interest in taxidermy and made a long cloak of rat skins including the tail. It did not smell good or look good. She is a vegan veterinarian. It was a huge conflict.
I have noticed. Good job men, it’s appreciated, keep up the good work of respecting boundaries
yeah, of course that's it. There's a thing called other women, so that we don't have to kill ourselves over you.
That and the whole if someone says no and you continue... You are now harassing someone. Those are the people that give a bad wrap to so many people. No means no. If you don't mean no, don't say it, or message them later saying you were nervous or some shit and just reacted out of fear. But it is on them once they said no. They shut the door. You don't keep knocking and trying to kick it in and expect to not be considered a threat.
This is an easy fix. Say yes the first time.
Saying "convince me" may even get you some persuasion. ;)
Or just don't ask why the people who care about you respect your boundaries
Why play these games? Why waste my time? I am not 15, if you do this shit, I don't care about you anymore and I'll just find someone else
Women like to be chased. It's an ego boost for them, they like the attention.
Women also hate indicating consent. They like consent, but they hate indicating it. Because if she never says yes she can have you arrested for sexual assault/rape/whatever. Women LOVE hurting people if they have bad feelings and that's a great way to hurt people, they won't give that up for ANYTHING.
They want to be chased, so they don't say yes because that would end the chase. They don't want to imply consent to continue to chase, so they don't say things like "not yet" or "you'll have to do better than that." That would give up their "ruin this man's life on a whim for free" card. So they say no. Man says "okay have a nice night" and walks away forever. Woman posts video on Tiktok asking where all the good men have gone.
I've been fed that line a lot. "Every single woman is a completely unique snowflake that cannot be compared to any other person, place or thing."
Sure. /s it is completely invalid to address tendencies in women's collective behavior. /s. It's not like women are massively effected by trends or peer pressure to conform to their in-group or anything. /s. This line totally isn't an intellectually dishonest non-argument designed to shut down any discussion you don't like without valid rebuttal. /s
So if I find one woman who disagrees with your claim ("women hate indicating consent"), you'll concede your argument is faulty? Because I've known several.
If you modify your argument to "Some women..." then that's slightly more defensible , but not really meaningful because there's all sorts of people. You could probably find someone who believes anything.
If you want to say "most women" then you're going to need to show your work.
No I don't because only the Sith deal in absolutes. You obviously have nothing of value to say other than pedantic bitching about your own inability to grasp generalizations. Goodbye.
Well you certainly lived up to your name.
And storming off is certainly one way to deal with people questioning if your generalizations have any validity, but I don't think it's the best way.
You're insufferable.
You are the one incapable of grasping generalizations and their meaning apparently. Maybe don't use them if you don't understand them?
Condescension, attacks on my person, I still haven't heard any actual rebuttal. Other than "You said 'women' plural so nothing you ever say can possibly be correct" do you have anything to say about what I've said?
Would you read a book or two? There's "Delusions for Gender" by Cordelia Fine and "Sex, Lies, and Bran Scans", both of which talk about gender, sex, and brains and how humans in general all think alike. We are more alike than we are different.
Doesn't sound worth my time.
The fuck are you talking about?
Quoting the image in the original post, apparently made by a person with a woman's picture as their avatar:
This implies she wants men to continue persuing her after she's said no. This is not a unique sentiment from women; I have seen many women making Tiktok videos saying basically this. "Why aren't men approaching women anymore?" "Where have all the men gone?" "Why am I not being asked out?" "Why did he take me seriously when I said no?" Why do you think they're like this?
What a weird thing to say.
Harris-Walz 2024
It makes sense you'd have to ask what they teach in a gender studies class. You definitely strike me as someone who hasn't seen a college campus. Too many women there, right? And as the queen pickme, you'd feel too inadequate.
I went to college for five years majoring in Aeronautics and Aviation Maintenance. We had actual things to study.
Bro is having a paranoid episode. lol. Went from "Society has changed" to some incel-level shit real fast. XD
Everybody here is saying it's feminism or metoo. But if she's been dating for long enough to notice these differences, then she might just be getting older.
Teenagers will spend a lot of time wooing the person they want. Middle-aged people have no time and will simply move on to the next person who's not playing games.
Bingo. Adults have no time for stupid games. Kids do.
The question of adulthood is not determined by age though. Particularly when it comes to relationships (including non romantic ones)
i mean if it's noticeable, then that's a great success for metoo. it brought attention to the importance of consent and the ability to give consent. to the idea that no doesn't mean try harder and more forcefully, but that no means no.
that's awesome. it's not over, but it's progress...
... then out of nowhere someone comes along and says "you ever notice men aren't as rapey as before? what's up with that?"
Why waste time on a no? Currently, women are throwing my number away after trying hard to get it shrugs
fixd
fxd
Pack it up, people, we’re done here.
If you don't know the person, taking a "no" at face value is exactly what everyone should do.
Also, not "no longer persuasive" but "not as insistent". If you said no and the man was "ok," you were persuasive.
The only time I was "persuasive" with someone she was taller than me, had military training and explicitly told me that she wanted me not to be a feminist around her.
If you want it, you gotta ask.
No.
You're replying to someone else. We were on a tinder date, watching a movie and when she had to go she mentioned while giggling and blushing "You're a feminist but when it comes to the bedroom, I don't want you to be a feminist" to me and then left. Later, she invited me over, and I didn't behave like a feminist. So that was fun, and it wasn't the last time she invited me, either.
I still legitimately didn't know what it means to not "be a feminist" with regards to sexual relations. Like, don't treat her as an equal, so be a selfish lover who doesn't care if she gets off as long as you do? Or more like the original post, don't concern yourself with "feminist" concepts like consent and just start having sex with her without asking her if she wants to? Just be a caveman who takes what he wants, when he wants it? I know that there are plenty of women who are into that sort of thing, so no kink shaming, I justed wanted to be sure I knew what we were actually talking about.
More like the original post, as you said.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sMQpWCNTQw
I like to take out a weapon and ask them to reconsider
Take them out in a boat and then they won't say no... because of the implications.
What do we need a mattress for?
A gun to the head makes a pretty good point
You either send strong incel vibes or forgot to add "/s" after your message.
I hope it's the latter.
I'm sorry but I would not sully my perfect sarcasm with a tone indicator.
We shouldn't have to add
/severy time because sarcasm can just be obvious every once in a while.Yes please. Don't be robots who need syntax to understand a joke
do note that a lot of autistic people specifically relate to robot characters in media and rather depend on explicit markings to have a chance of knowing when people are sarcastic or joking.
I'm in that spectrum too, and talking about pulling out weapons can't be serious. Easy marker there
I just assume everyone is always joking. It never goes wrong.
uh, no means no lol. have a good one if you're not going to suggest a different time date and just flat out "no".
IMO, a lot of this "lady's" complaint is a result of equality, and the "me too" movement (and related concepts). None of which is bad. I'll make that clear. This is not a bad thing.
Guys are respecting me, and leaving me alone when I say so? Omg, what a fucking shocker. Something that should have always been the case is happening and she's.... What? Upset about it?
Does she want to date rapists? People who would physically and emotionally force themselves on their victims? That's the exact behavior we're trying to eliminate. WTF?
Lady, as a guy, I want to inform you that, we're not the problem here.
If you like someone, and they ask you on a date, say yes. It's that simple.
There's a weird hyper-romanticized idea of men sweeping women off their feet with grand gestures and soul moving ballads.
But these tend to be storybook romances that imply the woman is pinning for the man and just looking for an excuse to say yes.
What's Prince Charming supposed to do when you say you're not interested? Just stare at you like a whipped dog and making whimpering sounds until you come around?
Idk, lady. If hitting on people is so easy, why don't you try it?
Saw a girl post a video talking about "Men aren't persistent anymore. My father asked out my mother and she said no, she was a waitress and he kept asking until she agreed to go out with him. My uncle did the same thing with my aunt, she was a cruise director and he was in the band on the ship, and he kept on asking what will it take for you to go out with me?"
Miss, your father and uncle grew up in a time when you could pay your college tuition working at Steak & Shake, get a white collar breadwinning job by looking the manager in the eye and giving him a firm handshake, buy a house for $20,000 and ask out a coworker without being fired. Here in 2024 saying "Hey do you want to go out for coffee sometime" is a career ending move. Asking out a waitress is how you signal the manager to ask you to leave the bar or restaurant. Compared to the 80's or 90's women in the United States handle being asked out very badly. "The worst she can say is no" is very much no longer the case. So if he even bothers to shoot his shot at all anymore "persistence" isn't even in his head.
That's simply not true. Not unless you're asking it persistently, to the point where people find it annoying.
And I think that's the hitch people get caught on. They don't realize when they're being annoying, so they're either too brash or too shy.
One of my favorite things to witness (usually via video) is someone being persistent, to the point of annoyance, bring told "no" every time, with varying degrees of profanity mixed in.... Then when something happens that makes the annoying person who is persistent finally stop (usually involving physical violence), they say "all you had to do was say no!"
Aaaahahahaha. You were an annoying little shit and wouldn't take no for an answer despite being told no repeatedly. You deserved what you got, you dumb fuck.
Yeah everyone has their own limit before it becomes a problem. There are some women out there who are taking to Tiktok asking "why don't men approach me at work anymore?" She's outright open to it. There are women out there who will overlook an unwanted advance or two if it isn't a recurring problem. And there are some women out there whose limit is "any attention at all whatsoever. Catcalling should be a felony #metoo." There are men who report being disciplined or fired for so much as saying "I like that outfit." How many mines do you have to plant in a field before you start calling it a minefield?
In any case it certainly makes "being persistent" sound like a very bad strategy, doesn't it? I think we can label that strategy well and truly dead.
I work in this area, and in my experience, there is way more going on than just a compliment about an outfit whenever someone is getting disciplined. Employees who claim that usually have no ability to self-reflect about the extent or appropriateness of their behaviour.
bull. shit.
Hahha bullshit.
Can't she try herself to ask men out?
Heresy!
If only women knew this simple trick
This is where "no means no" got you, lady.
It got you to "You have to say yes now. With your entire mouth."
Lady, if you can’t keep up, you’re gonna get left behind. Adapt or fail.
My money’s on fail
When you were actually looking for a cult leader all along.
I'm half covinced this is some incel/Tate fanboy pretending to be a woman.
I'm not saying it couldn't be. I'm not convinced it isn't either. But I will say I've known women who not only want to play that game, I've known women who want to tell you no and have you take what you want anyway, and they don't always have that conversation with you before hand.
Well, see, there's the problem. If you're into CNC, you need to have the conversation with someone, and you still need to establish safewords and shit, so that one person doesn't think it's CNC while the other person is experiencing sexual assault.
Oh, and the women that are into CNC are not into just anyone doing that; they still want it to be 'safe'. Or safely un-safe.
these women don't care about that. they are operating on a toddler level of wanting what they want and throwing a tantrum if they don't get it.
communication is not something they have developed yet.
...and I've met women who will say that because it sounds smart at the moment. They maybe genuinely wanting to play a little bit of a game within reason, but when speaking on the topic they will just casually forget about the nuance and insist on "no does not mean no, don't give up boy" BS.
They don't realize that saying that in a group of reasonable polite people, assuming we all know what it really means (play just a little bit), it's not entirely BS, but if there's a desperate sociopath/stalker with no ability to respect limits properly there somewhere, then they might just take it as justification for rape.
Nah I've experienced that myself. I spent years kicking myself for taking 'no' as 'no' from this one girl (we were teens) only to be told she wanted me to keep persisting. It took a long time for me to realize that she wasn't worth it.
Women - "No means no"
Men - Stops pursuing a girl after she says no
Women - "No not like that!"
I say bring back the good old days of sexual harassment and fifty layers of meaning wrapped in a frilly bodice.
Dont have to be hit on the head but once
Boxing is a profession
hotboxing is an art
But also, honey, you're not looking like you used to. Maybe you're not worth the fight you once were...
Nah idc how hot she is, someone who plays hard to get is never worth it
Not gonna lie yall losing your shit over this post gives me incel vibes
Because if someone says no then that should be it, why should someone be expected to continue pursuing a person after explicit denial?
Totally agree. Why do all these people care so much that one person online is claiming to not get that... Also id bet money an andrew tate type is the real poster lol. So the incel part to me is that all these people have such strong reactions to a nothing burger. Just an excuse to be angry at an imaginary woman.
Like if i posted 2+2=5 id obviously be wrong but it wouldn't be reposted and obessed over like this because incels couldnt use that as an excuse to be angry at a woman. Make sense?
It's the Internet, my first assumption was that it's fake. Even if it's not fake the idea that a specific individual may hold an ignorant opinion doesn't offend me.
That's good lol. I feel like you think I'm talking about you specifically with the incel comment and im not. i just mean look at all the other comments and upvotes from people foaming at the mouth to be upset at a woman theyve never heard of before.
Don't you think that they're giving off incel vibes?
Yeah no I understood, I can tell a lot of people here are probably incels (this is Lemmy). I also don't understand why straight men (specifically incels) hate women so much and yet they crave them so much. It's just something that as an AroAce Transfem I find it hard to comprehend.
Hell yeah stranger glad youre living youre best life 👈😎.
I dont the incel tendencies of most straight dudes either 🤷
:3
Yeah no I understood, I can tell a lot of people here are probably incels (this is Lemmy). I also don't understand why straight men (specifically incels) hate women so much and yet they crave them so much. It's just something that as an AroAce Transfem I find it hard to comprehend.
Having gone through an incel phase myself when I was younger, It's frustration and insecurity about not being able to get attention from women and then projecting any negative experiences they have or hear about other dudes having onto all women. That's easier than putting themselves out there and trying to form relationships and potentially facing rejection. Then they go online and reinforce each other's beliefs instead of trying to lift themselves up.
I'm very glad I was able to make friends with better people and get myself out of that mindset. Admittedly I'm still single now but I have a lot of female friends that like me as a person, which is nice.
cracks knuckles Let's piss some people off tonight.
This is sound mating strategy for homo sapiens.
Take yourself out of generational context. Forget religion, social mores and written history. Think back 100,000 years. Think game theory. Think only in terms of selfish genes.
A promiscuous female is a loss for the male. Whose kid is he raising? Massive waste for the male if it's not his genes.
(Insert note regarding the hypothesis as to why our dicks are shovel shaped. Add observations of male mammals killing their rival's offspring and note how we see this in modern men.)
A child requires an extraordinary output of time and energy, for both parties, far more than other mammals. Childbirth is also extraordinarily dangerous for big-brained primate females; big heads, helpless infancy and so forth.
The female needs her mate to stick around and care for her and her child during pregnancy through early child rearing. After all, she's going to be the very definition of handicapped for a couple of years. (Insert note regarding the hypothesis that grandmothers partially fill this role and why women live longer.) If she hasn't been picky and chosen a solid mate, her and her child may well die.
Now the male has to push back against this resistance. If he's not the type to push, he doesn't make babies, pass on his genes. To put a finer point on it, if he's not attracted enough to effort the chase, he may be a slut who will run off. Refer to previous paragraph.
tl;dr: Evolution selected for hard-to-get females and pushy males.
What you're essentially describing here is evolutionary psychology. Now, I won't go as far as some have to say that it's an entirely bunk field of study, primarily because I'm nowhere near qualified to make those claims. But I will say that it's a field that has received a lot of criticism for being full of poor science and "just-so" stories without a basis in good science, and that even if some aspects of the field are valid, it has frequently been misapplied in popscience to promote incel/alt-right worldviews.
The thing that makes me chuckle is how these evolutionary psychology little stories always forget the most basic thing: humans are social animals that live in clans.
The bunk part is the overconfidence in the conclusion, not necessarily the ponderance.
Because people are more than someone else's summation and over-simplification of their evolutionary history.
If they weren't, then social evolution wouldn't exist. Hence, the alt-right adoption.
That's the bunk, that, and they were being a total dildo.
I know you're trying to make an argument, but your word choice and way of presenting the arguments is giving off major incel vibes.
I expected this response because I frequently used the word "female". This is a biology discussion, not a sociological one. I tried to take care to set and keep the tone scientific and not "in common parlance". And perhaps I failed.
As to "incel", I've had 50+ lovers in this life, the very opposite of involuntarily celibacy. What this says about my psychological needs, well, I've been thinking on that lately, not liking my own reflection. Thank god I'm with my wife and those days seem at a close.
As to the science of my post, I welcome challenges! Challenges to my ideas are how I learn.
This is a shitpost on lemmy, stop pretending that you're an acclaimed professor presenting at a conference or something lol.
Now imagine this: Every now and again a species makes a great evolutionary leap. Men respecting women's decisions and women being honest about what they want could be the next stage of human evolution.
We can change and history and genetics show that our cultural choices really do influence our evolution.
Did Andrew Tate watch a nature documentary about Lucy, or something?
I give this one a 2/10, too obvious with the crack knuckles
No, we don't see this. Men do not routinely kill their rivals' offspring and, if they did, the mother would want them locked up.
Most of your logic implicitly assumes that males and females pair up. The game theory is quite different otherwise. What makes you think that our ancestors 100,000 years ago did this, when you're explicitly comparing them to mammal species that don't?
You succeeded at line 1, I'll give you that.
Yeah, this is some evolutionary psychology shit. A subject that is pure bullshit, we simply do not know enough about a biological history, or how the brain developed, and works, to truly, accurately, ascribe psychological phenomenon directly to evolutionary considerations.
The lack of evidence is one thing, but his argument contradicts itself.
He says that:
Apparently, the women failed to select fathers who would stick around to defend their offspring, and they're happy to mate with men who kill the children that they have invested so much in. This strategy is clearly bad, so evolution would select against it.
Relevant XKCD https://xkcd.com/775/
Imagine being gay. Lol
Others have hammered on how incorrect this is but I do want to point one thing out
This is assuming a 1950s style atomic family unit which is an extremely new concept. Evidence suggests our shared pre-agriculture ancestors lived in small hunter gatherer groups. These groups would share responsibilities, like a family, but not necessarily all be closely related. "it takes a village to raise a child" and everything.