Shouldn't most religious people in theory be excited to die because then they get to experience the afterlife?
esp if you're one of the devout ones who think they've been really good
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esp if you're one of the devout ones who think they've been really good
I don't really have anything to add, but thanks for writing this. It's quite insightful.
Careful that's how you end up drinking the blue Kool aid.
The ending of life is a sad thing, it can be frightening to imagine losing that control.
Faith is one form of trying to capture that control. Please try to cherish the life you have here and make the most of it. For most I suspect there's no need to rush it.
Faith is also trying to cherish the life you have, and make the best of it. For example "God gave you a talent, don't waste it" or saying grace and focusing on what you're thankful for in life. I even knew people who use prayer as a form of mindfulness meditation to keep them grounded in the present.
No, you end up drinking the Kool aid at gunpoint after turning your life over to a narcissistic cult leader.
It was actually her obsession with the afterlife and the coming of the end times that led to me cutting off contact with my mother in 2014 and me renouncing my faith.
My mom was a devout Christian my whole life, but she went full-on fire-and-brimstone Bible thumper during her divorce from my dad. My dad had cheated on her multiple times and she'd finally had enough of it.
She hated my dad for walking out, but vehemently denied that fact and instead projected her hatred onto God himself. She would always say my dad (and anyone who supported him on his side of the family) would be judged harshly for his actions in the next life. By the way, she said this about basically anyone she didn't like, including people she disagreed with politically or morally; it might not surprise you to learn that she was quite a bigot as well.
In the last few years I knew her, she started to obsess over the prophecies in Revelations. She'd constantly send me chain emails about how the various conflicts in the middle east were a sign that Jesus Christ was about to return, or a misquoted article about the US government looking into identity microchips was Obama (the Antichrist, obviously) giving his followers the Mark of the Beast. The last time I spoke to her was in 2014 so I never got to ask her what she thought of Trump and his MAGA hats, but I have a strong feeling the irony would have been lost on her; I once had to explain to her that an article she showed me from The Onion was satire and her response was, "they shouldn't be allowed to say those things."
She died in 2020, but not from COVID. Two years earlier, she had let a kidney stone get infected which then progressed to full-on sepsis. It responded to the treatment at the time but the infection damaged her heart, which ended up killing her. For the life of me, I couldn't imagine why she didn't see a doctor because a kidney stone would have hurt like hell, but then I realized she probably felt that it was just God calling her home.
So yes, anecdotally speaking there are religious people out there who are obsessed with the afterlife. I think people are still inherently afraid of death, though, so they're not exactly in a hurry to die. But for a religious person who's ready to die, it's likely nearly all they can think about.
There is a comfort in knowing that we shouldn't feel like we have to take revenge on those who wronged us because God will judge them
Or, you could spend your whole life dreaming of the day that God judges your enemies for you, instead of listening to your loved ones telling you to move on and find your own happiness, or you know, learning some actual conflict management skills.
You can move on knowing it's in God's hands and not your burden to bear.
So this turned into a bit of a rant and while it's likely nobody cares I'll post it anyway.
I don't know about Christianity but at least in Islam this isn't how it works. So there's a hadith that says that death is the worst of what comes before it and the easiest of what comes after it, because the day of judgement is just that bad. There's another that says that in the day of judgement it will be so hard that people will want Allah to start it even if they go to hell. No matter how much you think you've been a good person it's not at all something to look forward to. And that's not counting how even as a Muslim depending on what you did in your life, you could go to hell, spend a certain time there according to your sins in life and then go to heaven. Again not something most people want to find out, especially because Islam teaches that with the exception of prophets everyone sins and that we all need Allah's forgiveness and mercy to go to heaven. The kind of arrogance it'd take to actually hope for death because you're confident you're going to heaven can in fact be the reason you go to hell. A devout Muslim will never think "oh I've been really good in life I can't wait to die and go to heaven".
Then we get into how in the day of judgement people will have mountains of good deeds and mountains of bad deeds and people's (temporary; again all Muslims will eventually go to heaven) fate will be decided over a single good or bad deed. Most people thinking seriously about the afterlife will want to live as long as possible to do good deeds and beg god for forgiveness for their bad deeds. Again, no sane Muslim will think "yep, I'm doing alright, death please".
I grew up in the largest muslim country, and I never knew that. I'm a devout atheist, but this is helpful to frame the thoughts others have.
buddhism has that too. if people were offing themselves in hopes of somehow reaching enlightenment thru killing, i’ve never heard of it. lol. the buddhist reasoning is that killing in general is bad but killing oneself is the worst of all because the one being that can choose to become enlightened (or at least try) and that you have control over is yourself. “so get crackin’” being the idea there.
My cult taught my 13 yo self that were I to take my own life, I would have to re-experience the life that led me to suicide in order for my soul to learn the lesson. But since I robbed another soul of the oppertunity to live as me, I'd have added bad karma and would reincarnate in (a non specified country in) africa. No more help was offered.
I've beaten depression, but suffered losses in cognition due to its severity and length.
Didn't the Bible state that suicide is grounds for not getting into heaven?
The bible considers it a sin, but sin doesn't keep you out of heaven if you're Christian, you basically just have to try and do better.
The Catholic church decided it was a mortal sin, and because you didn't have time to go to confession afterwards, you would go to hell.
That's a drastic oversimplification, but it is kind of the root of it.
Suicide is only a sin, so it would theoretically be forgiven. Problem is you must atone for your sins before death, and there no way to atone if your dead by your own hand.
I am aware of no such passage. Heaven didn't occur to the people in that area until very late in the Bible writings. It is highly likely an introduction from the Greeks.
They definitely considered it a sin though? Even if not grounds for not getting into heaven due to it not existing to their knowledge.
Oh the theist consider it a sin but I am not aware of it being explicitly laid out as one in the Bible, could be wrong I admit.
It makes sense when you think about it. You can't have your slaves offing themselves.
I am an atheist and have always been one, so feel free to reject what I say here, but I think I understand why they aren't, and let me illustrate with a story from my own life:
When I was 26, I moved from the Indiana town where I had spent my whole life to Los Angeles for work. I left my parents, my friends, even my wife for six months because she was finishing grad school. I knew I would see them all again eventually, but I still didn't want to leave them and if there were a way I could have delayed it for years but still have been able to have a dream job in L.A., I probably would have. The first night when I got to L.A., I cried and cried because of everything I had left behind even though I was looking forward to a bright new future.
So it's not that they don't want to go to the afterlife, it's that they want to experience this life as long as possible. They want to be with all of their friends and family now, not wait for them all to die so they can be reunited in heaven.
I don't know, it makes sense to me.
I think you've misunderstood the awesomeness of heaven. You wouldn't miss anyone. Infinite happiness.
The more deeply you think about heaven the more hellish it sounds. Basically you get stuck in this drugged-out bliss perpetually in worship of god. Because you’re stripped of all your corporeal problems and desires. You’re not going to hang out with friends (who would they be? Do they get a say what life stage they appear as?) None of your corporeal hobbies are there. Maybe your spouse decides they want to hang out with their previous partner who died in a car crash? You don’t learn. You don’t grow. You don’t get new experiences. You have nothing to look forward to. You’re a slave to stasis.
The only answer to solving these problems is to place the person in a bubble. But that creates a whole new set of problems. Heaven sounds pretty shitty.
Religious beliefs are in no way uniform or rational on that sort of concept.
Yeah, but without the carrot, people would fight against the stick. Every religion has both the things you shouldn't do and the reward for not doing them.
As far as I know at least.
You're talking about what people should think. I'm talking about people's motivations based on what I am suggesting they actually do think.
That's absolutely fair. Sense making isn't a requirement then.
This makes total sense.
Yes. I've seen a religious person on their death bed saying that they have lived long enough and are ready for god to take them.
No matter how good the afterlife is, it’s not going anywhere. Life, however, is unique and finite and so should be savored.
Just like my peepee
We see this in some cultures. Classic folks songs from the antebellum United States (e.g. Swing Low, Sweet Chariot or Wayfaring Stranger ) welcome death with the promise of salvation or afterlife. And there are plenty of worship songs and hymns that praise the afterlife and the end of the world, as if these are good things to look forward to.
Part of this is because of the hierarchical system of middle ages feudalism. Death was always near anyway. Winter always had a body count. Child mortality was terrible (and it was always a happy thing when someone made majority at ~15, even if they were an idiot, antisocial or a bastard.) A bad run of harsh winters and poor crop yields — even a couple of sucky years — could spell famine for the entire region. There was always a labor shortage. Life for common folk was brief anyway, so there was seldom a need to hurry their way to heaven.
As for suicides, yes, there are proscriptions against needless suicide, but this doesn't stop countless miserables from taking on a heroic task, that is, one in which they can die easily. Revolutionaries and suicide bombers emerge from this ilk. From the Troubles and the War on Terror, we learned that our terrorists were radicalized by circumstances in their life, and imams and priests would just point them in the direction where they could get arms or bombs and a target. When you have nothing to live for, it gets easy to look to divine wind opportunities, and consider ways to make a horrific mess, and news that bleeds.
In modern Christianity in the US, ministries look to fuel doubt in one's own salvation. Jesus saves, but only if you're in his in group, and He doesn't select everyone (according to many preachers). I've noted this defeats the purpose, since the narrative is everyone sins, but only Jesus can forgive and making it sound like its a rare lottery ticket makes God sound more like an eldritch horror than a loving personal deity. During the protestant reformation, this was one of the reasons for the traditions Sola Fides (salvation by faith alone) and Sola Scriptura (guidance by scripture alone), so the individual parishioner doesn't need a minister to guide them, but their salvation depends solely on their own relationship with God and scripture. In that regard, it's possible to assume God is just and merciful and provides salvation for everyone. After all, God allegedly knows the circumstances of your life, and put you there.
But then it's also common to imagine that we personally, and our local kin, are going to heaven and everyone we don't like (e.g. Hitler) is burning in Hell for eternity, though that is just a failure of empathy, of recognizing that even the worst of us do not choose cruelty, suspicion and deception, rather were shaped to do so by the elements and society around us.
The good news is even the pope admits Only God knows the nature of the afterlife, how people are sorted. So we can assume He is reasonable and takes into account our circumstances, or He is an arbitrary monster, in which case our best behavior doesn't matter. The natural world informs the latter, so we're safer with the likelihood of oblivion ( All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain ) than an afterlife in which we are once again slaves to a parasitic system.
And speaking of us naturalists, how we define our lives and identity informs how we see mortality. An afterlife has an intersection with the transporter paradox (when Captain Kirk beams down, is it Kirk or Memorex? -- that should date me.) In reality, while we don't have breaks in consciousness by space, we have breaks in consciousness by time, hence the robots in Freefall are nervous about updates and reboots, and we may not be the same person when we wake up from a good night's sleep (rather another iteration of ourselves, with all our bits and memories and thoughts.) End-of-life studies show that a lot of people on their death bed have more frequent, more prolonged periods of unconsciousness until one day they don't wake up. So if we don't exist after death, we may not exist under general anesthetic or during non-REM sleep.
(When you live, your thoughts, feelings, memories, sensations are all driven by your brain and nervous system. So when you die, if an afterlife continues your existence, it's done by another medium, maybe a spirit-brain or magic brain or something that allows you to continue to think, perceive and exist. Otherwise, your soul could be in the center of the sun at 15 million Kelvins, and not even notice. So, assuming that Heaven and Hell exist, your physical brain won't experience it, but some other version of you will, much like the simulation of you in Roko's Basilisk.)
Others define our identities by any iteration of ourselves, which allows us to wake up and be the same person who went to bed. This can get interesting now that Deep South, a computer that can run computations nearly equivalent to a human brain, has been developed as proof-of-concept. Surely, our billionaires are wondering now to create a simulation of themselves, run by a Deep South system, and give it power of attorney over their estate upon the conclusion of their human life.
But that brings us to phase two of the transporter paradox, when a mishap creates a second Riker. The technician is saying hold on for a minute, we'll get that dematerialized in a moment, but Riker-who-didn't-leave is literally begging for his life. Who is the true Riker, and why isn't it the other one?
And before you answer that question, Holodeck simulation Riker wants to raise a critical point about civil rights.
I've been reading Heaven's River, the
thirdfourth part of the Bobiverse series (which teems with replications of computer-simulation Bob, id est Robert Johansson) which discusses questions regarding replication drift (all the Bobs personalities diverge upon activation), and it does raise a specific illusion: Even as we live and age, we change and deviate from who we are at any previous given moment. Some of this is due to experience, other is due to age and development. So even if we could attain medical immortality, or run as a computer simulation on a robust machine with a perpetual service contract, we'd still drift away from our identity as defined in any given instant of time.(Incidentally, the same thing can be said about any given religion and any given culture. They change continuously, and all efforts to preserve a given identity will prove futile as time pushes up mountains and the oceans erode them away again.)
So yeah. Memento Mori. Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero.
Edit: Draft pass
this is why buddhism says there is no “self” in an eternal sense. in every moment, we are different than the last. vajrayana even has exercises you can do where yu mentally try to locate the “self.” is it in your forehead? your throat? your arms? and so on (actually doing it was amazing, to me). there is no self to cling to, no self to defend. all things arise from beginningless beginning due to the circumstances for it arising, and they end when the circumstances for them to remain end. (im not as good at explaining philosophies as you are, but did feel to add this.)
this was interesting to read. thank you!
This is like saying that Atheists shouldn't fear death because they know it will just be blank nothingness that they won't perceive.
Fear of death doesn't come from the logical part of our brains.
?????
Totally not the same. Religious people believe the afterlife is better than real life and the OP was curious why they aren't speed running to get to it.
A blank nothingness is not an upgrade for most people.
It is the same because a blank nothingness isn't bad so atheists have no reason to fear death.
That's a matter of opinion. The fact you cease to exist may very well be considered scary, even by atheists.
No, it's a pretty objective description of the absence of being.
Yes, because fear of death does not come from the logical part of your brain, not because they have anything logical to fear.
Death is still a process. You may not be scared of what comes after death, but can still be scared of dying itself.
So why cant theists?
Sorry, I don't follow your question. Why can't theists what exactly?
A blank nothingness might not technically be bad but there are plenty of ways that transitioning to that nothingness could be absolutely terrible. There are also many people living very enjoyable lives that want to keep the party going so to speak.
I for one am an atheist and madly in love with my wife. You bet your ass I'm gonna try and squeeze every last drop of goodness out of my life.
Congratulations, now apply the same logic to theists.
Never insinuated that it couldn't be applied to theists. Not sure why you're seemingly hostile about this.
Given that the whole context of this thread is why theists are scared of dying, you kind of did insinuate that with your story.
It's relatively worse. If you have nothing you won't be around to complain about it. But having a good life is totally better than simply not existing.
It's not relatively worse, it's just objectively neutral. It cannot be relatively worse because it is not perceived or felt to be compared. It is just objectively neutral.
Any positive number is objectively higher than zero or null
It is not zero or null, those are both conditions you perceive, it is the complete lack of perception and being. You cannot have lost anything if you no longer exist to perceive any loss.
Yeah that's what null means dawg
Look up that photo of zero vs null in the context of toilet paper
This is a stupid take. Of course they should fear death. It means the loss of everything they loved, even though they won't experience said loss.
There is no loss to you if you don't experience it.
There is. Also, if you want to mourn or fear that loss, you have to do it beforehand. Thus making the reaction to fear death completely rational for atheists.
The good afterlife is only available to them if they have been "good people" while alive, and dying early is not being a "good person". Also, after their death, they supposedly get "judged", and everybody is going to worry about the X number of "sins" that they did during their life that might end them up in hell.
That's not true even for all of Christianity, let alone all religions...
For example orthodox Christians believe everyone goes to heaven, and that we are all bathed in unconditional love from God. Hell is finding yourself unworthy of that love because of how you lived.
Orthodox Christians believe that everyone has sinned and have fallen short of the glory of God, that the punishment for sin is death, Jesus is the only way to The Father and the way or forgiveness of sins. It's not everyone. If everyone went to heaven that would mean sin would go unpunished.
Punishment is a part of catholic dogma, and makes no sense if you think of God as absolutely good and loving.
https://www.orthodoxroad.com/heaven-hell/
Everyone is sinful and deserves hell. Forgiveness is through Jesus.
You don't see any cognitive dissonance with that statement coming from an absolutely good and loving being?
He does love, which is why He died for us.
Absolutely good and Absolutely just.
Not absolutely loving. Source: Bible
"I loved Jacob, but Esau I hated." Malachi 1
Here's an alternative translation of those verses from NLT:
I loved your ancestor Jacob, but I rejected his brother, Esau
But I don't know any Hebrew and only a few words of ancient Greek, so can't comment on how accurate it is.
Besides that, the perception of God is vastly different between the testaments:
7 Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9
1 John 4
You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your heavenly Father, for he makes his sun rise on the bad and the good, and causes rain to fall on the just and the unjust.
Matthew 5:43-45
In roman-catholicism suicide is a bad thing that makes god angry. In the past, clerics said you would go to hell if you were to commit suicide. We also have the commandment that says "thou shall not kill", which is shared with a lot of other religions. So, we are educated to not facilitate death, and I guess the idea is to die peacefully when death comes, thinking about the afterlife. Don't think "exciting" is the goal here.
Also most of the early Christian sects who believed either this or "no marriage/children until the second coming" died out. Either literally or they got absorbed into Catholicism as various orders.
Speaking about Christianity -- but it's not an unforgivable sin. If one believes in what is common in Christian sects and is having a difficult lonely life without support, it definitely makes sense to commit suicide. God being angry, but then forgiving you and allowing you to live in heaven sounds better than a life of despair to me.
It's my opinion that most people that call themselves religious don't actually believe. The true believers are the ones doing suicide bombings and fighting unwinnable wars.
I had to sleep on this before coming up with a reply. As an individual who is not what you would call religiously devout, you can take it with a grain of salt. But whatever the case, here goes…
I grew up without religion for the most part but married a Catholic, and as musicians, we wound up playing at the local church.
As it stands, I would not say that I have bought into the whole religious faith thing at the deepest levels. That does not come easily for me. But I think it is fair to say that certain aspects of the religious experience have rubbed off?
In particular, I am more invested in the welfare of others ranging from my immediate family and friends (many of whom I met indirectly through church connections) to the community at large. As such, I am in no hurry to shuffle off at this point, as I feel there are people who depend on me and so I guess I still have unfinished business?
I don't know what happens in any afterlife. Does anyone, really? Frankly, if we all just fade away into oblivion, I'd be satisfied to simply have a peaceful release from worldy concerns, but I don't have any expectations beyond that.
When I was in primary school with mandatory religious education this is how I saw it
Jesus' verses to us about life being a gift resonate here. The duties we have aside that may shift the balance, it's too unique an experience to say Heaven surpasses it in gift status. I wish I enjoyed mine more though, I'm more indifferent to it.
They still have the survival instinct and inborn fear of death. But yeah, one of the advantages of religion is that it helps to elevate this inborn fear a bit.
I've asked a number of religious guys what happens if you kill infants, would they go to heaven? If so, why don't we since that will result in eternal happiness without all the life suffering and risk going to hell.
One person (Catholic) told me, the babies would go to heaven if they were baptized and then killed. The other person (Christian) told me they can't determine this because they're not God.
So why are they so much against abortions?
They may believe the doctor and mother will go to hell, but they surely don't care about those two.
As far as I am aware infants would go to heaven (regardless of being baptized) but the person doing the killing would sin.
Relieving someone from temporary suffering just to suffer eternally isn't a good trade off.
Someone told me that sheep go to heaven, and goats go to hell. But don't quote me on that.
https://open.spotify.com/track/4G8Eu3EDQZYhHPfJMFCv8V?si=ec17c966ba024a2c
They are often, consciously, but the biology of us works so that most decisions are made unconsciously. The nature of all biological life is that there's a survival instinct, which is in full effect for religious people as well. So they try to live as long as possible anyway, inventing all sorts of reasons for doing so.
Religious belief is inherently not made to make sense, it's to alleviate fears. Trying to make sense of it rationally like you do is futile.
If you watch the testimonies of Near Death Experiences on YouTube, a general theme is that the sensation of dying, once you have passed over is one of a great relief like a great weight has been lifted from your soldiers. And those that get sent back often have regrets after returning to their body to complete their earthly missions, as the physical body is so heavy and uncomfortable. But there is usually a great sense of purpose attached to being here, even though most of the time these things are hidden from us. Maybe the reason these things are shrouded in mystery is so people don't off themselves to get back to paradise. I have also seen some testimonies of suicide NDE's and past-life regression hypnosis accounts in which people whose lives were prematurely cut short were reincarnated very soon after dying in order to learn the lessons or complete the missions/purpose of the life that was cut short.
My dad suffered a heart attack and died suddenly about a year ago. I've never been religious or very spiritual, but after his death I became a lot more open to peoples' various ideas on the afterlife. There was such an unfair finality to losing him. I always feel as though he's right there on speed dial, even at this moment, but when I go to reach out to him I'm reminded that he isn't ever going to pick up even though he still feels close. It's like he's always on the tip of my tongue.
Of all the things I've read and heard in my exploration of the topic since, NDEs are hands-down the most comforting and convincing of them all. Even if it's all some kind of grand and miraculous illusion that we endure across all cultures, with or without any physical brain activity, the thought of him finding peace and comfort in that moment of death and choosing not to return to his body is very beautiful to me. My dad lived a life or immense chronic pain. His leg was obliterated as a young man and reassembled with rods. He had degenerative disks in his spine, rheumatoid arthritis, etc. So many memories are of him whincing and breathing through pain. Of course he wouldn't return to that battered and broken body.
So while it still feels shitty, and still feels unfair, I take solace in the thought of him shedding that shit, seeing his dad (suicide) and mom (cancer) with him again, and choosing to return to the ether, knowing full well that my mom, my brother, and myself will heal, and be okay, and reunite with him eventually too on the other side.
And when I die, even if it's all a last-minute illusion, I hope it gives me the peace I need to let go too.
DMT and the desire to be on tee vee.
Shouldn't students be excited to turn in their test in to the teacher, because it means an end to the stressfull test and the obtainment of the good grade?
The religions where this was a strong desire are gone, because the people that brlieved in them kept dying
No. America is filled with them.
America is filled with people that use religion as a cultural tool of identity and dominance.
Or they've changed. Martyrdom and suicide were both enormous issues in the early Christian church - so much so that church leadership had to establish the doctrine that "if you kill yourself, or you start the fight, you don't go to heaven".
Not all religions have a heaven to look up to. Most schools of Hinduism, and Mahayana Buddhism, require a person to live multiple lives before they achieve nirvana ('non-being' or 'enlightenment', not 'heaven'). Other schools of Hinduism and Buddhism are either silent on life after death (Theravada) or reject it (Navayana, Charvaka).
lemmy users when they find out that Christianity isn't the only religion in existence: :O
Not religious but was watching a video this morning where Neal Brennan and Howie Mandel were discussing death. I stopped and looked at my tea and said to myself "I'll miss this" (the tea).
I hope wherever I go after there is tea.
The American death cult that moved to Venezuelan forest, they definitely didn't go to heaven
I think heaven was a necessary evil. The point was to have a scary place with an omnipresent being that will send you there if you break the rules. For that to work, you need a good place to serve as the dangling carrot.
You're agreeing with me, so I'm not sure why you're saying No.
The con man uses the carrot as part of the convincing. And people are just as susceptible to those strategies now as they were back then. Science is better now but the "floor" hasn't moved much, just the ceiling.
It is essential to Christianity that Jesus was raised from the dead. Without that, there is no message. Source: the Bible
"...if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied."
1 Corinthians 15: 17-19
Yeah. As someone who really likes thinking about metaphysics I'm really excited to die and see what it feels like. That being said I also really enjoy living and I'm not in a rush to die. It'll happen eventually and I want to try to do as much as I can while I can.
Everyone should be excited to die, not just religious people. Being excited to die means you lived a good life that you're satisfied with.
The problem is, most of the current generation is well aware they haven’t lived good lives. Not to mention, the conundrum of living longer implies a chance for an accumulation of more misdeeds. Personally, the most likely scenario is almost everyone becomes aware there is likely nothing afterwards at some point. Religion is more there like the bumpers for kids cosmic bowling, ensuring zero gutter balls. Keeping you playing, until the day you’re old enough to remove them and pay taxes, revealing life is a subscription, and childhood was a free trial all along.
Read the comment but laughed when I saw your user name.
Not everyone can live a "good" life by your definition of good, but they can live a good life by their definition of good.
Current generations realize that what older people are trying to sell them is a scam, and they're working on building a new better reality based on their fresh perspective on what reality is.
You can look at religion through many lenses, but at the end of the day religion is just an unprovable fiction we choose to believe because it's how we want the world to work. My belief that if you want to live a good life you should do unto others as you would have them do unto you is religious. Game theory and my life experiences support my belief, but it is ultimately an unprovable belief because of Hume's Guillotine and the fact that my definition of "good life" is subjective.
It's 100% possible that I'm just tricking myself into thinking helping other people is good and makes me happy, but I will still choose to believe.
Is there any reason to feel different after you've died than before you were born?
The same reason why you feel different today than when you were just born? You don't even need dualism to have a basis for life after death.
I feel different today as my sensory as well as sensory processing organs have developed.
Being dead, just as before being born, I possess no such organs and expect not to "feel".
But my position isn't the interesting one, @RadicalEagle suggested something I interpreted as still having perception beyond life, and I was wondering if that excludes having perception before life, and how that ties into their metaphysics.
There are a lot more changes influencing your perception of reality than just sensory development.
That's dependent on your consciousness being limited to your physical body. Who's to say that your consciousness wasn't limited so a pantheistic deity could interact with itself. Both theories are equally unscientific as you can't disprove what happens before or after life
Consciousness being tied to the physical body isn't "unscientific", it's the only option that can be tested and studied.
Read a bit about falsifiability and philosophy of science. Physicalism is a metaphysical theory, and not falsifiable.
I'd agree, but those are enough to clearly demonstrate a mechanism for changed perception in the proposed time span. The underlying question is question begging and whataboutism, so I think I've provided an overly generous answer to a dishonest question.
As we can reliably affect consciousness though manipulating the body, it's well established that it's contingent on the body.
And as we can map consciousness happening in the body down to individual neurons firing, where would a non-corporeal consciousness interact with a body?
You calling these reliably reproducible facts unscientific belies a fundamental misunderstanding of science.
Though naturalism might not be the only way to investigate the universe, we have yet to encounter any reliable other paradigms. And even if we would discover them, naturalism would still be part of science, we'd just add the other paradigms to the areas they're useful, like we've done with psychology, sociology, and even quantum physics.
A difficult question for unfalsifiable hypotheses is that if they're unfalsifiable, they are also undetectable, and as such no different from figments of imagination. Why should I believe your imagination when my imaginary friend says not to?
Did I mention dualism or substance monism? Materialism doesn't necessarily include physicalism.
Read up on why physicalism is not verifiable. Your imagination saying consciousness ends with death is equally verifiable as my imagination saying you're taken away by the flying spaghetti monster.
Ever heard of ontological pluralism? Naturalism is not physicalism...
Your last response wasn't constructive, and this one does even less to further a discussion. I'll just end this here.
Have a nice rest of your existence.
Nah. But reason and logic are just human constructs that you'll get to let go of when you die. The process of being born is indescribable for me. I think the process of dying will also be indescribable by definition.
Yes. I am excited to escape this evil world and finally be with God where I won't suffer any more. I am excited for Christ to come back and destroy all evil in this world as well. Maranatha!
Lol
"To die would be an awfully big adventure" - J.M. Barrie
"If I knew there was an after life I'd kill myself right now"
I mean, I'm not religious but I'm excited to die ¯\_ (ツ)_/¯
(This is a half serious joke. I have a long history of suicidal feelings and whilst I generally do want to live and am not in any acute risk, I wont lie — many days are a struggle. )
Edit: escaped a backslash so my shrug could have both arms.
Hi if you ever wanna talk to someone or feel like your alone do feel free to dm me . This is not just internet formality i'll be genuinely happy to talk to you .
Thanks. I'm not likely to take you up on it because talking about things isn't generally helpful for me, but I appreciate the offer
Its all good its that some people feel more suicidal when alone so i thought I'd offer and you don't have to talk to me about your problem we can talk about anything else . But hey i get it and i hope you overcome whatever that is bothering you .
Religion has crafted their rules to make sure they maintain control. They can’t control dead people.
I'm not worried about dying. I believe if I'm here on earth I'm here for a reason and so I'm content to be here until such time as I'm not needed anymore. I enjoy being with my family and having a cup of tea with my wife, as someone here has already mentioned.
I know there are a lot of distinctions in religion but I don't believe being "really good" is an option for humans. I believe being saved from our innate brokenness is the only way anyone could possibly go to heaven. I'm not particularly attracted to religious things or practices.
So yes, I'm excited to go be with God, but I'm not about to take matters into my own hands. It would fly in the face of humbling yourself before the Almighty.
So god made you broken to the point you cannot be a good person. Then god punishes you for being broken?
I grew up in a Catholic family. This is pretty much it. It's an abusive relationship. I mean, it's fiction, but it's abusive.
For real. I grew up in both a cult, and with eastern orthodoxy. Where they believe the soul of the child chooses the parents. This however is only perpetuated by parents telling their kid to follow their orders. "If you disagree, you shouldn't have chosen us as your family."
Religion is a tool to control people and inherently abusive.
I'm not responsible for some guy's actions goodness knows how long ago.
Do you get consequences for decisions the president makes? Your Governor?
Say what you want, have to live by the decisions of your representatives everyday. You might not have even voted for them. Doesn't change things.
Yes it does. There is a difference between someone holding power over people using it in a way I don't want them to, and a person doing something a higher power doesn't agree with. Why am I being judged for an act I had nothing to do with? It's like being conviced for a crime I haven't done.
It's less like a single act than it is like a treaty. I think Brexit is a great parallel.
Kids born today in the UK and henceforth going forward forever (unless something changes) will not enjoy the benefits of being part of the EU. They once did, but they chose to leave. The UK decided "No, we don't want to be bound by those rules."
But these new kids didn't decide that. These kids may be upset about that. They may wonder "Why am I being held responsible for actions that were taken by people (20, 50) a hundred years ago?"
But it's done. There was a relationship once, but we withdrew from it. Now we're on our own. You didn't get the protections without following the terms.
There still is a difference. One man here made a choice that affected billions. Whereas with brexit, a majority voted for something.
It still seems morally wrong. Especially to then call people unable to be good people as a result.
Correct. That's how you know it isn't a genuine belief, rather than coping.
Yes? Religion is anti-life. I remember being excited about the idea of meeting Jesus one day.
I thought this was how you summarize current inaction against climate change.
Shouldn't athletes expecting to medal just want to skip the competition and go straight to the podium? I mean, that's the reward, right? It is pretty easy to come up with many other analogs where there is a reward/goal that would feel hollow without whatever experience precedes it.
God knows everything, why should you have to prove that you're good?
Maybe he's not the one you're proving it to.
Care to elaborate?
Maybe it's meant to prove it to yourself.
I remember in Christian fundamentalist circles after 9/11 remarking they might not be ready to die for their faiths like terrorists are. Not the best introspection to be doing, I don't think.
Obviously, even among the truly devout, humans have innate urges to stay alive. Fear of death is often one of the last steps in any faith. After life and fear of death is also one of the bigger preoccupations with many faiths. It's the big unknown.
Everyone has to die and no one is ever truly ready.
For me outside of the natural scariness of it if your not into reincarnation then this is yout only chance on earth and hevon may be good but I'm not done yet getting my own personal kind of high score
You think the devout ones think they're good?
Probably the opposite, dude.
The religious aren't as obtuse as Internet randos suddenly given a voice may lead you to believe. Even those who profess reincarnation believe we only get to experience this life and serve our purpose once. May as well make the most of it.
All "truly good" people have incurable impostor syndrome?
You know not all of us believe in an afterlife, right?
They don’t want to die before they make everyone else’s life a living hell
I agree with you.
Either the person isn't a 'good follower' and isn't going to the good place.
Or they don't actually believe. Because there should be no fear or apprehension about going to the good place
People who believe in God will still scream during a fatal car accident. Belief in religion has nothing to do with the natural survival instinct.
You're trying to set up an idiotic no-win situation that has no bearing on reality.
A fatal car accident is different. Could be a shock scare or just not wanting to be injured.
Belief in god has no bearing in reality.
Having said that, my grandfather outlived my grandmother by 10-15 years. On his deathbed, he was holding some marriage pictures. He was looking forward to seeing her. Guy believed 100%. Still makes me tear up thinking about it.
No, if a test has no possible win outcome, then it's not a true test.
"Heads I win, tails you lose" is not proof of your ability to predict a coin toss.
100% it's different.
Just because a movie has a jump scare it isn't necessarily a scary movie. There's a difference between some existential dread and 'boo'.
I'd argue that the accident is a startle response with body horror mixed in.
Some people are scared of death. Doesn't matter the cause. That's what I'm talking about. It's 100% different than a fatal car accident.
By your logic, all Christians would commit suicide with a smile on their face.
Stop trying to straw man with unrelated metaphors
You're starting to get it?
That the true believers aren't afraid of death. The believers that are scared at the concept of dying aren't actually believers at all.
You don't get it. Your "test" is not a fair test. Your making shit up to justify your feelings. You're either 14 and think that you're smarter than the rest of the world, or your just really, really stupid.
Either way I'm not going to continue arguing with a pigeon who thinks it's playing chess.
Religion has always been a compromise on logic. It's whatever in fairy land.
Yes. At the same time some aren't that sure or scared of death. And the rules are that detailed that lots of people have committed some kind of offense and can't expect to go to heaven for sure.
Also the bible has implemented some additional rules so you can't take a shortcut to heaven... Suicide won't do it because (surprise) it's a sin... And generally speaking god is just testing you with this life. That's kinda the only thing why it matters and why you would want to behave and live it like he intended.
Also there is martyrs, suicide cults etc taking that shortcut straight to heaven.
Regardless of how much you look forward to what comes after and how certain you feel about it, no one is going to want to go through the pain that comes with dying.
What if dying feels like letting go of all your pain? I can imagine dying feels good. The best part about dying is you can't be certain what it'll be like. It could be the ultimate punchline, the ultimate letdown, or just utter nonsense as you fall asleep.
Just like life, dying is out of my control so I'm just going to go with it and try to enjoy it as much as I can.
I mean, maybe after your heart stops and your brain function starts to slow down it might be peaceful, but unless you're on a lot of painkillers the process up until that point tends to be excruciatingly painful - at least personally, thats the scary part.
i see you said this was your personal anecdote..
that said, this is just is not true (for everyone), please dont say this to people. not everyone dies in pain, or has a journey filled with it.
i work in hospice, your words could not be farther from the truth.
I mean, as grim as it is, how many people get the luxury of a safe environment when they die, nonetheless proper care and support. Half the world barely even has access to real medicine, and even in the most developed and progressive countries, medical assistance isn't always adequate and not everything can be predicted or prevented. Not everyone meets death in pain but most do. The reality is death (and health issues in general) does tend to be scary regardless of what comes after. At the same time, thats all the more reason to care for each other and push for a safer and more caring world, be it in preventative safety measures or in proper care for those who are terminally ill, not just for the wealthy, but for everyone.
hugs
You're a big guy.
But yeah I totally agree. I still feel mortal fear in my daily life, especially in dangerous scenarios.
But isn't that what the ultimate high would feel like? In order to look forward to dying you have to be able to look forward to limit experiences and bad trips, which is insane.
I just hope that if I die in a violent accident I'm listening to "Last Surprise" from the Persona 5 soundtrack because I would really appreciate that.
If the pain aversion wasn't enough for most folks to not consider it, suicide in many faiths is considered a pretty big nono.
you’d think so, wouldn’t you? it’s crossed my mind about a thousand times over the years.
They don't believe in that bullshit any more than you do.
If they really believed that Big Brother is always watching them and will pass judgment when the time comes their behavior would be completely different, they might even be tempted to actually read that book they claim is his word. Alas...
Some good answers here, and some interesting ones. But here's (I think) a key perspective mostly missed:
In Christian thinking, life is good. Messed up, but good. Heaven is a vague term for where God is, and the End Game is us being alive again on Earth - either this earth, healed and fixed; or a completely new earth/world from scratch, depending on who you ask.
So even though we hope for something better, living now is good. And even though the real problem of death is solved, death is still bad per se.
That's not quite the whole picture, and those who grow closest to Jesus are often both very glad to be alive - for loving/helping others even more than for themselves - and looking forward to "going to heaven" where they can be in the undiminished presence of God.
Paul in the Bible put it:
I.e. to carry on living is to do Chris's work; but to die is gain for me personally.
Confuckinggratulations
You just reinvented the concept of Shahadat in Islam
Roughly the rules are interpreted as if you spend your life in the service of somebody else or society you go to heaven. Of course, those in power see themselves as serving society because they give guidance. If you do things going against that, so disobey the leaders, you go to hell. It's how they tried to keep the populace in line. The rest is window dressing.
No, they're scared shirtless of death. They know despite the self righteous facade that they are shitty human beings and expect to find themselves in hell.