Feedback from all moderators
Hello world!
We would like to start by saying thank you ❤, no really 🙏 THANK YOU to ALL the moderators out there!
Without you folks, we would have no one to help keep our community safe and help build the communities both here on Lemmy.World and on other fine instances. To this end, we want to make sure your voices are heard 📣 loud and clear📣.
So, in the spirit of transparency, we would like everyone to know that we are looking to help out the folks working on Sublinks. Over the last several months we have grown to be more than just Lemmy.World. We've added platforms such as Pixelfed and Sharkey to help offer our users more diverse options for expressing themselves online. We still are very committed to Mastodon as well.
We DO NOT plan on moving away from Lemmy as a software platform at this time. Any changes in our core services would need to be discussed extensively internally AND externally with our community members. We firmly believe in the growth of the Fediverse and without the users, there would only be software, and that's no fun!
Sooo...
The Sublinks team has written up a little survey, which we feel is both thorough and inclusive. It covers a wide range of topics, such as user privacy, and community engagement, along with trying to gauge things that are difficult when moderating.
Also please be aware the information collected by this survey is completely anonymous. As many of us in the social sciences background know, if you want the REAL feelings of individuals, they need to feel safe to express themselves.
Please feel free to comment in this thread, we will do our best to respond to any genuine questions.
We look forward to hearing from each and every one of you!
=Sincerely,
Fedihosting Foundation
PS ... also if this sounds like a corporate press release to you folks, we still punk 🤘😜🤘
"YES FELLOW KIDS, WE ARE ALSO, HOW YOU SAY, STILL DOWN WITH "IT" "
It?
Uh, yes, I, too, am down with IT. 🎈🤡
😱
I used to be with ‘it’, but then they changed what ‘it’ was. Now what I’m with isn’t ‘it’ anymore and what’s ‘it’ seems weird and scary. It’ll happen to you!
is this a quote? I could have sworn I've heard this before.
Grandpa Simpson
Ah yeah, I remember it fully now with that tid bit firing up the neurons.
Well that is concerning.
To be fair, they can’t see the future. People can change their minds. Better to write something like this than say “we will definitely always support Lemmy” and then in 5 years say “lol that was a lie”.
If the Lemmy admins can't make a living from it, that's the Lemmy community's fault.
I don't know. I'm not beholden to a single platform. I use Lemmy with like three different clients too (Tesseract is by far my favourite for Desktop) so the "Lemmy" I care about is essentially just an API. The link above says
The way I read that is "you can use the existing Lemmy clients to connect to a Subkey instance." Further it says
Meaning we'll likely be able to at least view Sublinks content via lemmy, if not interact with it like any other Lemmy community/post. In that case, who cares if it's not Lemmy? To the end-user it might as well be.
My main concern is that a lot of jumping around would mean we'd lose users each jump. Eventually we'd just have empty halls with no content. Knowing that Subkey is out there as an alternative in case the developers of Lemmy decide to pull the plug, or something else happens with it, is heartening.
They literally can't. It's open source and publicly licensed. If they abandon the project (or even if we don't like their direction), it can be forked (copied) and maintained by someone else.
Yes but that requires someone else to do the work. If Sublinks takes off instead, why stick with Lemmy?
Anyway it’s all conjecture right now. We have lemmy, things are working just fine.
I love tesseract! Thanks so much for mentioning it. This makes .ml more like Alexandrite.
Based on some comments here I think I will likely leave .world when they stop or try and change to sublink. It looks like that is the imminent goal. Tesseract makes it much easier to leave. Thanks again!
Yeah, Tesseract is fantastic. Though I'm sure you could use Alexandrite with .ml as well, provided the client and API versions are compatible. Tesseract has some additional discovery features and such too, I believe.
For all we know though, one might even be able to migrate from Lemmy to Sublink. Like I said, they could swap over from Lemmy and we might not even notice it. I don't really see the problem.
Personally, I don't give a shit about all this weird BS and infighting. I moved to Lemmy simply because my Reddit client was killed. I could give less of a shit about FOSS and finding 10,000 different platforms that everyone and their mother is now creating. I hope that lemmy.world doesn't end up going away. All I want is a community to interact with, not a constantly fracturing platform with weird political infighting.
This is part of why some people (myself included) are skeptical about Sublinks - I'd rather see us all gather around Lemmy, which already exists and is open source, rather than duplicate effort across different implementations.
However realistically speaking, over time more implementations will probably appear, because people won't agree on what to build or how to build it.
In some ways that is good as well - it gives choice for users about what software to use, just as users can choose their instance and apps and such. But I think it's a little early to start something new while Lemmy is still so new.
Is it?
I was under the impression that Sublinks was basically a drop-in replacement for the backend of Lemmy, just with better mod tools. If Lemmy.world switched to it, would normal users (not mods) even notice or care?
From what I can tell, it's more worrying that .world is trying to essentially build up a new site like Mbin, from the ground up, in Java, rather than just working to make Lemmy better. It appears to be a severely underestimated workload for no benefit whatsoever, other than "better" mod tools, which could be folded into Lemmy either way.
Yeah, I agree reimplementing the protocol in Java instead of Rust seems like a downgrade.
I think part of the reason for Sublinks is creative differences with @Dessalines, but even if the problem is getting upstream acceptance for patches (edit: and it isn't) it seems more efficient to fork the existing code than to start from scratch.But it's their time to waste, so whatever. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Edit: I stand corrected.
We have never rejected any patches from lemmy.world admins or from sublinks developers.
Clock is ticking
Ticking for what exactly?
Why? Am I not up to speed with something?
I don't see why the moderation tools couldn't just be improved on Lemmy. The new moderator view has been very useful for me as a moderator. We already have Lemmy and Kbin. The Sublinks about page doesn't say how it is going to be different/better than the existing options apart from moderation tools. On top of that it is made in Java instead of Rust? That's just going backwards in my opinion... This post also does not state why you guys are interested in a Lemmy alternative. You could have named some issues you have with it and why something else would be better(just like the Sublinks guys could have done in their about page). I started my communities here and put a lot of effort in them. I can't just switch instances without destroying most of the work done. The language used here really makes it sound like this instance is on borrowed time. Being able to transfer communities to another instance would be nice...
There is no reason it couldn't. The main problem seems to be that the Sublinks devs don't like the Lemmy devs and they don't want to bother learning Rust either and would rather rewrite the whole thing in Java.
They are of course totally free to do that, but it does seem easier to just improve Lemmy instead of building a whole new Fediverse service just to improve mod tools.
Honestly though if they need to learn Rust to do that, it might not be a good idea. I'd rather have a very good implementation in Java than a very amateur one in Rust. Depending on the implementing dev, of course.
Usually that kind of thing depends more on the dev and less on the language. Junior devs will write bad code in any language. An experienced dev can pick up a language and write good code quickly.
Also, if you want to consider the effects of junior devs on a project, the Rust compiler is much more likely to ensure that junior devs don't do something stupid, since the compiler makes it harder to make mistakes.
Its not necessary to learn Rust to improve mod tools in Lemmy. There can be external mod tools implemented as api clients using any language, such as LemmyAutomod. Its also possible to add plugin support for Lemmy, which again can be implemented in various languages thanks to webassembly
At this point they just might contribute to kbin then. If they know Java, they probably know PHP too, or at least it'd be easier to pick up.
Hi,
thanks for your ideas, moderation isnt just a community, its the whole instance. The moderation lacks for instance admins the most. For example reports, with the current setup it is impossible to search for one specific report or sort by community,person,reporter,types. The sort order is currently somewhere else where it should be, it sorts on the server by old => new and client side new => old. I dont know if this was wanted but it just creates additionally to the lack of sort or filter options a issue for instance admins, that want to look for urgent reports at the top of the reports.
The programming language is just a preference, i already said this to mutliple people, this was a choice of convinience and it is still a valid option for a rest api.
Hello there! I love lemmy.world - I moderate communities such as /c/Minecraft and /c/Relationship_Advice and will always be onboard for improving our platforms and reaching more people.
I also do not personally believe in yet another slicing of the communities into different platforms, and if Sublinks aren't integrated into Lemmy - requiring new communities or separate accounts - I will not be following along. Of course, somebody else could always take over my communities in that event, but I just wanted to let out my opinion on this.
You might not remember specific details during that whole jump in workload, but during the first week of Reddit migration, some moderators from communities that fought really hard to build an user base migrated here - one for menopausal women in particular caught my eye, as the moderator did everything in her power to migrate users who weren't tech savvy to a whole new platform. The reason this effort didn't work and most of these communities reverted back was the extreme fragmentation and confusing nature of the early Fediverse. If, for whatever reason, we add yet another layer we are explicitly saying we only care about esse of use for tech savvy programmers. This is a fine stance to have, but make it clear and explicit if that's the case.
As a final addendum, the political beliefs of the Lemmy developers never harmed any of the several opposition communities or servers - if that's the root of the matter, I'm even more disappointed.
Still, as always, I will support the .world family of servers and there's simply nobody quite as good, competent and dedicated as this team in the Fediverse.
Sublinks would work th same way as Mbin does. People on Mbin can currently interact with all the Lemmy content in a similar way Lemmy users do.
To be fair, when the migration happened, Lemmy wasn't ready. Federation was still flimsy, and LW was under constant DDoS attack. Lemmy is in a much better state now.
Thank you so much! We're trying our hardest ❤️
At the end of the day we want to make sure the whole Fediverse keeps on growing in a safe way.
Sublinks will be API compatible from Day 1. So you will be able to interact just fine with Lemmy from it (and other activity pub servers, I believe). Also all mobile apps will work with it as well.
Hard disagree. Lemmy is full of authoritarian propaganda, and they're quite happy to abuse and harass users. The devs might be on lemmy.ml instead of Hexbear, but they're on the same team spreading their propaganda with a ML facade.
I've been told I'm "going to get the wall" (i.e. they'll execute me against a wall, a death threat) and had an old account followed around with them downvoting everything I posted until I just abandoned it.
I still use Lemmy but I won't even admit I use it unless it really cleans up a lot of the misinformation and hate, and I see certain devs as central to this problem.
I'll happily move to a new platform to avoid them.
Just to be clear, Sublinks is still a Fediverse application and presumably if lemmy.world switched, it would still federate with the instances it currently federates with, so you would not avoid anyone any more than you currently are.
If you want to avoid certain instances, go to an instance that has defederated from those instances (or make your own).
dude that sounds even more corporate 😂😂😂😂
Just kidding, xoxo <3
fr fr no cap skibidi rizz 😜
Deadass slaps, fam.
I want to start by saying I am extremely thankful for Ruud and the team and think that you did an amazing job with lemmy.world and I wish you success in the future.
That said, I am a monthly 30 dollar donator to Lemmy and I am not interested in Sublinks. I read through the threads and my take is that I think the motivation for the development of it goes against my personal politics and mischaracterizes nutomic and dessalines. While I appreciate the nature of open source to open up avenues for people to act as they think is best, I do not want to leave the Lemmy.
Ahead of a migration to Sublinks I hope there comes a cleaner way to move communities off lemmy.world. If I had known how the Fediverse worked 11 months ago I would have self hosted an instance and shared my communities that way as to not be defederated from people I want to be federated with. Additionally I think that having a single huge lemmy instance is not great for the architecture of the fediverse as a whole and even if there were no changes planned or being considered. I think that many instances hosting communities is preferable to having large ones like lemmy.ml and lemmy.world.
Again I totally get that this is provided free and as is and as such you are free to make the decision you think is best. Even though I am a difficult person, I very much appreciate you, your team and what you are trying to accomplish. Thank you.
I really hope there will be an option in Lemmy and Sublinks (and bin,mbin etc) to move communities between instances. But I think that's not very easy. I agree that having a few large instances isn't how the fediverse is meant to be. Ideally there would be a separate instance for each community.
It does sound very complicated. You'd probably need both instances to agree to the transfer somehow and then you'd need to transfer all the data (old posts from before the two servers federated for instance).
It would probably need to be built into ActivityPub if it should really work between different Fediverse services too.
It's probably not worthwhile to transfer the data. I would say the subscriber base alone get's you pretty fare.
May I ask why you didn't move to another generalist instance? It's a two clicks operation now to export and import settings from the settings menu
Because 10 months ago I chose to host c/veganhomecooks here. I do now use my own instance that I run out of Azure and plan to figure out a way to move my comm there but that is not easy to two click and move, I would lose all the subscribers and posts and it would not be cached on any other federated server. It is currently the largest and most active vegan focused community on the fediverse and do not want to leave it behind.
I see. Well, good luck with this. If that helps, I noticed that if you communicate openly with your community, explain a progressive plan, the transition can go quite smoothly (I moved communities from LW in the past).
Losing the posts sucks indeed, maybe we should bring this topic as its own thread to see if someone wants to work on a tool to allow export and import of posts.
I would have asked the same question, just do it earlier than later or then add a note, on where to find your new community if you want to move your community too. That is sadly a software limitation and would be irritating if a whole community can just swap instances.
Because I don't want to make a lateral move to another instance hosted by someone like you and would prefer to do it myself. I work full time and it took me a few months to figure out how to deploy and maintain my instance before I put it to production.
edit: English is not my first language, I didn't mean this to sound attacking. When I said someone like you I meant in general someone that I do not personally know and sometimes the way English speakers cloak language is not clear
Ahhh ok, i wish you good luck with your instance! If you need some tips or help i know a good guy on the LW team ;D .
I don't understand this post, at all... Did something happen to Lemmy? This post has very clear intentions.
If you just wished to help the folks at sublinks to gather information on moderation tools, as you claimed, you should have just opened an issue on their github or on their sublemmy or whatever. Do not create a sticky for 200k people to see.
Yes the 0.19.3 upgrade happened.
We wanted to give their survey more reach, as a sort of collaboration.
edit: version typo
I read all your posts on this thread and honestly.. I am shook. There is very clearly some resentment there, resentment that goes beyond the interests of the community and beyond the points of the OP.
There are always going to be issues with this type of software. You should raise them appropriately, on their repository, so they get fixed in the next release. That is how FLOSS works. Do not use that to divide the community. We are not big enough for that yet.
Instead of being shady and manipulative, how about you create an issue/post with the current lemmy bugs/troubles and give an honest chance to the devs?
And you are mad because of documentation? I mean, I understand, it must be infuriating, specially being the biggest community. I understand the stress. Had it happened to me, I would have been mad as well. But come on. Be better than that. Documentation is text. Just send a PR with the correct configs. That should be easy. Sure, you hurt, but use that to improve the community, not to divide it.
And check the upvote/downvote ratio of all your comments here. You have more downvotes than upvotes. That is the community speaking.
And I wonder @[email protected], is he speaking for Lemmy.world with his comments?
We hoped for the best and we got the worst. Even after we waited like multiple months after release and what got we? We got a headon crash to the wall.
Bad documentation, changed setup, ui issues, sort issues, performance issues, ddosed multiple times by smaller 0.19.3 instances that crashed and restarted, some other issues that could have been seen if blackbox tested just once.
For smaller instances ok they can live with it. But we waited extra long, and then got the worst, untested software.
edit: typo in the version
Considering that Lemmy is an open source project which is being built collectively by a big community, your comment sounds extremely strange. You are basically saying "we did not do enough testing for the 0.19.3 release, and we accept none of the blame for it."
Edit: The more I think about your comment, the more strange it becomes.. you guys are literally running the biggest instance, but rather than participate in the testing of big releases, you let smaller instances do it for you and then complain if nobody else is testing it at your scale. Your comments would be completely understandable if this was a paid product, but come on... Just think about it, would you also have this kind of approach for IRL community projects?
We did our testing, but we didnt scaled it up to be similar size of our main instance. There everything seemed fine, but when we upgraded the real issues have rissen up and were just breaking every setup we had.
We had some trust that other instances and developers had tested it at least by turning their instance on and report it, but didnt seemed so. Some issues isnt even caused the instance size. Some issues were documentation were just wrong and not noted it was experimental.
Of course we should have mirrored our big instance, but that would have increased the costs and would be time heavy.
What I'm wondering about is how you might start using a platform with a much, much smaller userbase, and expect that scaling problems won't be as bad or worse. With even less sister instances to get troubleshooting info off of.
I think they mentioned in another comment, but sublinks is developed in Java, so the .world team would be able to contribute more to the actual development/testing process (edit: since they aren't familiar with rust).
sry was a typo
Hmm.
They just wanted to head off anyone assuming that, due to adding support for other platforms. And leave it open in case lemmy tanks in some way at some point. All we can know is our current intentions, we can't know what our intentions will be if things change in the future. We can guess, but only so accurately.
If I'm looking to build skills in a new language, that language is probably going to be Rust and not Java. One of those languages has a bright future. The other is going to look a lot like Fortran in 15 years.
I expect real performance issues with Java at some point, especially compared to Rust. The initial difficulty in picking up the language is worth it if I never have to see another Factory pattern that only returns one type. Why just use a constructor when you can use
idiopathicidiomatic java?FWIW I think the performance is probably not the biggest of deals. Java isn't like Python, it's not super slow or anything.
That said, there are other reasons to favour Rust. It's a newer language that has learned from the mistakes of the past, such as overzealous OOP with inheritance and the billion dollar mistake, null pointers. Add to that a host of problems many programs run into with concurrency and shared memory and you've got a whole lot of potential bugs.
Potential bugs that are quite impossible in Rust (assuming you don't use unsafe Rust but you definitely don't need that for a web server).
In normal use cases I'd agree about performance. But on the scale of Lemmy it's absolutely likely to make a difference long term.
And if you're going to use a managed language, why not something that has less baggage and a brighter future, like C#? It's as open and multiplatform as Java these days with less of the overzealous, Java-specific OOP culture.
Feel free to start your own, to be honest I feel it's like the only major language missing now, as we have PHP with Mbin, Rust with Lemmy, Python with Piefed and Java with Sublinks
Agree on both points. Especially Javas memory usage could be problematic.
We chose that, as we already saw the things that can be done wrongly with rust. And no one of the sublinks team can do rust really, so it was just a matter of what languages can be learned faster and/or have already good knowledge about a programming language.
If you really want performance, please write your code in binary, then you have no compiler, no runtime just plain binary code, it will be fast but unreadable ( like rust if wrongly done ). Java is just a good old and known programming language. There are already some techniques to improve performance and / or cluster your application up. With an load balancers. Something like lemmy tried, but a little bit easier and extendable.
What a stupid, dismissive, and worthless take.
Its a stupid take, to dismisy java and JuSt UsE RuSt. We chose java for a reason, we want to get going with development, that cant be done with slowly building up a rust team. As they are already bussy on lemmy. So it would be just a fight for developers too.
Isn't Sublinks more like dismissing Rust and saying "JuSt UsE JaVa" to use your own words? I mean Lemmy is already there with Rust and development is already going with an existing Rust team. If all the Sublinks devs wanted was to improve mod tools, it'd probably take much less time to just learn Rust and start contributing to Lemmy. But I suspect that just improving mod tools is just part of the motivation and the real motivation is to not depend on the existing Lemmy devs and use Java instead of Rust (i.e. "JuSt UsE JaVa").
To be clear, they are totally welcome to do that, but it sounds kinda weird to argue that people are saying "JuSt UsE RuSt" in some sarcastic manner when that is what is already there and is being used.
Nutomic, one of the main Lemmy devs, didn't know Rust either when he started contributing. It's really not so difficult to learn as it seems.
I'd love to help anyone learn btw. I unfortunately don't have the time to contribute to Lemmy myself but I love teaching so if anyone would like to learn some Rust, hit me up.
Don't tempt me. I've been meaning to put together a simple Rust API for ages and just haven't gotten around to it. AI was still bad at Rust when I last tried, making up crates, etc.
I've read, uh, half the Rust book. So I get the basic concepts.
Don't use AI for writing code, at least not when you're learning it.
Especially not when deciding on libraries, etc, there's literally been supply chain attacks creating fake libraries with the same fake names that chatgpt wrongly suggests
FYI: https://lemmy.ml/c/learningrustandlemmy
Maybe @[email protected] would be interested in helping people there.
Oh nice, I was not aware of this community 👍
Axum is a great crate for a web server :P
way to tell devs to fuck off and stop complaining. ngl I'm interested in this space, know java well, and still was immediately turned off by Java. SPRING BOOT no less. does your internal team work with anybody that has experience in building TEAMS and not just software? if you did, you guys should know what devs want and it's NOT writing java sb for free. this is a bad take, especially coming from an engineering leader.
We have a bigger main developers team tham just 2 guys. Everybody has their favorite language. Its a gopd take especially in tge statistics.
Citation needed? If you check the last 3 months of Lemmy development and the last 3 months of Sublinks development, there's a lot more activity on Lemmy.
Java isn't inherently better at running as a distributed system than any other language is. If you want a service that can horizontally scale infinitely, learn Erlang and use the BEAM VM.
At least the way we structure sublinks, it can get easier clustered.
Apologies for a bit of a negative thought here ...
But I went through the survey, mainly curious to see what SL are thinking about in terms of moderation tooling, and was somewhat disappointed to see mostly broad and open ended questions. While these can be very valuable in surveys for picking up on as much information as possible, I was hoping to see more specific ideas about moderation tooling for people to provide feedback on, instead of "what do you find difficult" etc style questions.
To be harsh for a moment, it almost feels like the SL team decided they'd work on moderation tooling, then realised they don't quite know what to do and so are looking for ideas on what should be done. Now I know that's likely untrue, given that some admins and the SL teams have already had conversations. But still, I was hoping to see some manifestation of those motives and conversations in this survey. Maybe that's unreasonable of me ... I'm not sure.
All of that being said, a complaint I've made in this space before (to other platform devs), which I'll share here again ...
platform specific moderation work is a bit of a shame on the fediverse. It may not be tractable, but some form of platform generic plugin style moderation tooling really seems like where things should be headed. It would be cool if something like that was what was being worked on here rather than reinventing the wheel for a ~50,000 MAU userbase.
It could be in whatever language or stack you want. APIs are there and if new ones are needed they'd be worth working on too. You could make whatever frontend for it you like. And there is likely some interesting protocol involved too. I know there's talk about such things over on the mastodon side.
But generally, IMO, plugins, rather than whole new platforms (with blackjack and hookers) is likely what the fediverse needs at the moment given its scale (and lack of major growth in the near future).
Thanks for your feedback, sadly lemmy is not in that stage and is not build for plugins in mind.
The sublinks team didnt meant to be too specific on some questions, i will give your idea to the sublinks team for any further surveys.
Sublinks is already heading there where you can listen to events, trigger events etc. but yeah instance plugins would be very cool and could be easier used by third party developers improving the current platform they support.
Thanks Rooki
This is not true, Lemmy can definitely have plugins and there is an extensive discussion about this topic. The conclusion is that plugins should be implemented in webassembly, so that they can be written in many different languages. See extism for details. Whats needed is someone with a clear use case who can implement a proof of concept, as it wouldnt make sense to add plugin hooks that no one uses.
Also mod tools can be implemented as api clients such as LemmyAutomod.
Ok thanks never knew about such discussion! But it is missing like hooks, events, triggers. Otherwise a plugin is almost useless and just hooking directly to the db would be more effective.
External bots, have one big downsode that kills it for most "plugin" use case, it is pull, many use cases want a push method over a trigger, event or similar. And to fetch the api every second is inefficient if you say so. Direct db access is not available for everyone.
Sure the plugin hooks still need to be implemented. It wouldnt make much sense to do that now before any actual use case exists, then the hooks would remain unused or wouldnt even work properly. Thats why it should be implemented together with a proof of concept plugin.
On sublinks we already do stuff apready with those hooks. So that is already implemented
I couldnt find it in the repo, what sort of plugin hooks do you have?
In the services, the "events" all of those can be hooked into. In our case the only thing that is missing is a way to load a plugin into the software is missing. But it is comming up and if someone really needs that urgently a custom build, it is really easy to integrate a logic into it and build it into a custom build, by simply putting it into a custom file and then pulling upstream for updates.
You dislike being asked to provide your opinion on an anonymous survey with optional demographic questions? And then you post your opinion on the same comment with your screen name attached? Why?
You are misreading my post and putting words in my mouth.
The point was not wanting to do the survey. Not at all. Just that
isI’d presumed there would have been more concrete concepts in there.Why are you responding this way? Seems a bit reactive.
So... you're thinking about it? That doesn't instill a lot of confidence in continuing to use this platform moving forward. I started contributing donations to the lemmy platform development, and will not be very happy if you just decide to abandon it in the future.
We would never just drop a whole platform with 1000's of users. Any huge changes like that would 100% have community involvement.
The thing with sublinks tho Idk about right now but they are aiming for feature parity And if done right it should be possible to do it in such a way that it's unnoticeable by the average user
Are you planning on sharing the results of the survey? I think the Lemmy folks would be interested in it too.
After mulling this post over for awhile:
As many of us in the social sciences background know...Please explain the intention of this statement. I don't mean to be cynical, but to me, this implies I have been part of some science experiment of unknown intentions and implications; at the extreme end of possible meanings. I thought we were a FOSS community, many with a self hosting interest. A social sciences interest and background has entirely different motivations and raises concern for me.I see my name mentioned here, but I don't understand the remark. Positioning fediverse services against each other? The team has posted this to get input to assist the Sublinks development team in getting moderation tools in their software. I think it's good there's many options in software to choose from. Lemmy, Kbin, Main, Piefed, Sublinks. I also run mastodon, but also similar platforms like firefish, sharkey, akkoma etc. Users can choose. Nothing is positioned against each other. They all work together as 1 large Fediverse. And, the more instances, the better. The fediverse ideally should exist of many instances instead of a few large ones. (Yes, I agree that having 1 big Lemmy server isn't ideal. But that's another discussion.)
Hey Ruud. Overall the post comes across as if it has odd intentions. It does not clearly state the purpose of the post but it explains a bunch of what it is not. In corporate America and American politics we are constantly getting these kinds of messages. It almost always means everything that is addressed in the message is about to happen. The person that wrote the information is trying to tell the reader how to think instead of providing information and allowing the reader to draw their own conclusions.
You have mentioned your other servers in the fediverse in the past, and it was always in this type of informative, "draw your own conclusions" type of post. I appreciate that, and can respect it.
The proper way to introduce sublinks would be in a similar vain, to simply state that it exists and what its merits are versus Lemmy. If change may be coming to Lemmy.world, simply explain the reasoning behind those decisions. It is great if you can involve the community, but the involvement should be following the principals and alignment of the community to engage with them. Microsoft as a service for providing my personal details is not aligned with my values. Perhaps if I lived in the EU I would feel differently, but in the USA I have little choice but to avoid these companies entirely.
A survey is often a tool used to gauge how to administer a change that will be unpopular, and this usually means the change in direction addressed in the survey has already been decided.
My concern could be completely misplaced. I have not punched a hole in my firewall for Microsoft or agreed to their terms of service to see the content of the survey. The only information I have is what is posted here.
My concern has nothing to do with the obvious joke. I am concerned that this post does not describe its purpose clearly, it implies major changes are coming, and it promotes feedback in a way that does not align with my principals as a very active user here. On a separate note, the comment about sociology is curious for its unsolicited randomness. Do you run any scientific experiments in the background or allow other to do so?
I default to a skeptical line of questioning , but I am not trying to be negative or accusatory. It is mostly a desire to learn and understand what is happening under the surface.
I don't know yet. I think that's something we need to discuss with the team and get input from the users. (Yes, I did register sublinks.world :-) )
Seems to me that's because (with the possible exception of Lemmy vs. Kbin) this is the first time there have been two Fediverse services of the same type. (After writing that I fact-checked myself: it turns out there are two Twitter-equivalents in addition to Mastodon, Misskey and Pleroma, but they're not noteworthy enough to have their own Wikipedia pages, so...)
Anyway, it seems to me (given that Sublinks is intended to be API-compatible with Lemmy) this is less of a "position them against each other" (as in competing for users in a walled-garden sort of way) issue and more of a "choose among several equivalent implementations the one you like best" issue.
EDIT: I am sorry for the previous text, i was a little too moody there, so the downvotes are probably justified ;)
Yes we all knew that, but because of convenience and we didnt wanted any issues with accusations that we correlate ips that accessed the self hosted form with lemmy user ips, so we chose to use Microsoft Forms
You answered none of that user's questions at all and used your post to tear them down.
Yeah fine power tripping here nothing else to see folks . also they aren't "foss elitist" you said the survey was "anonymous" and they explained how its not.
Edit: Yeah i am sorry, i was just annoyed by some other comments. Downvotes are justified here. Edited my original answer. I am sorry for my bad behaviour!
You know that in the FOSS space Microsoft does not have a good standing. Asking people on a FOSS based social media to give anonymous answers about another FOSS project through a Microsoft service is a bit of an oversight.
Edit: Sorry, for my harsh response, edited my original comment. I am sorry for my bad behaviour.
Is there an alternate survey site that could be used other than Microsoft? The site is pretty much impossible to see in dark browser mode as well (light grey text on white background).
Aside from that though, what is the difference between Lemmy and sublinks?
I’d like to know this as well. Perhaps better mod tools?
They say they plan for better mod tooling, but so far it's still not released so it's difficult to know how it will be different or better (and whether Lemmy will get better tooling by that point also).
Better mod tool and a more common and well known programming language. A seperate team for UI/Design and API, so that the development goes faster and goes to multiple checks before it gets released. It is lemmy api compatible, so your iphone or android app will still work.
Sublinks has a roadmap too, to give everyone a glimpse where everything is and what is planned. And Sublinks developers welcome everyone that want to support the project, even non developers that want to input their ideas or personal experience.
Sublinks will add some moderation tools for mods and instance admins, to have a better control over their instance and to reduce spam, trolls or illegal content ( not pirated but that BAD porn stuff )
While I'd like to contribute to the survey, I'm not comfortable using a Microsoft form in addition to providing uniquely identifying info
I'm still willing to contribute in other ways tho🤗
You can dm @[email protected] any of your thoughts and ideas. Or just put your ideas into [email protected] and create a public discussion or even if you techie enough just create an issue on github https://github.com/sublinks/sublinks-api and jgrim and the team will discuss about it.
Thanks for your help
Is there a better form service to be used? We used it because it comes free with our email.
searching online a couple I've found:
I was hoping not to have to host it myself. I won't need it often. I was mostly curious about a Saas. Thanks though!
totally fair
no worries!🤗
ayyy it's got AGPL-3.0 and it's dockerized🎉
noice👌
It's actually extremely buggy. Not sure if we'll fix it or find something else. Perhaps something you suggested.
fair enough🌻
sometimes being realistic means to compromise and choose something that works albeit unoptimal so it's totally understandable👍
I setup https://github.com/deck9/input on polls.sublinks.org. We'll use this next time.
That's the whole thing. It's not about the software per say, it's about the users and the whole concept of a federated internet. We all really believe in bringing back the best of the old internet.
LMAO, Sublinks devs are so engrained in Java that they want to rewrite Rust in Java, and their survey they send is written in Office 365? They're a meme.
The Java idea is absurd and shouldn't be taken seriously.
I disagree with the Lemmy devs' political views a great deal, but:
Java is a horrible language. Nearly every developer I've talked to in the last several decades agrees, even previously hardcore Java devs. Please just stop.
To your tips:
We dont want "just" to rewrite lemmy to java, we want to improve the code and thus we ALL dont know and want to understand rust, we chose to use java, as it is good old programming language where structure is already known.
Both languages are good, its just depends on what developer you ask. Both are valid options for a rest api.
Sublinks just wants to add a wider spectrum to the fediverse!
There is a solution to this problem and it doesn't involve writing any lines of Java or reimplementing a whole system.
Nobody uses Java… it’s too popular.
Hard disagree. I think Java is objectively bad.
I can give Rust to a completely inexperienced dev straight out if high school and they will be able to write a multi threaded program without data races since Rust was designed so that isn't possible. That's one example of many.
Even null is something the creator of null said was an objective mistake, and that concept is embedded into Java, while it doesn't exist in Rust.
Learning Rust to the point where your code is correct is absolutely not hard at all, which is why it's so bizarre when people create projects like this.
Like said its personal opinion. But what do we see with lemmy? Its on rust and still there are many bugs in there and the feature development is relative slow than to other open source projects.
Microsoft 365? Lol.
Microsoft 69/420
Thank you, corporate press release overlords.
Whoa. Some of us moderators are just average users who escaped from Reddit. I moderate two small niche support groups. (Stopdrinking and bipolar) I know the other moderator in bipolar is about the same tech level as me. (NOT coders!).
This sounds like we need to rehome our groups???
Why would you need to?
I don’t want to! I love it here and the small yet personal communities we have. My peeps check in daily or weekly. I try really hard to contribute to the overall instance. What I’m reading here in this thread sounds ominous from some people.
Yeah same. I'm a bit confused and concerned. I just want a post comments and enjoy content, I don't want to keep moving house every couple of years.
Any big moves would be discussed with the community. We aren't the best at communicating sometimes, but we do care about supporting the user base here. We would never want to put anyone in a bad spot.
Admins, mods, users; we're all human. I dunno if it's some big secret but I use /c/asklemmy posts as informal posts, and just consider the highest comment as the most popular opinion. Imperfect but effective.
I asked what community Lemmy most needs, and the most up voted comment was 'cranes trains and excavators and stuff like that'. I made the sub and it's been pretty popular. Maybe you guys could take the same approach, just an informal asklemmy post asking for input before any site changes?
We'd definitely do something like that ❤️
I think a lot of folks don't realize how hard it is to run a website.
Everyone says "too bad, you caused it yourself by being this big", well someone had to do it...
All we ever really wanted was a nice place for folks to express themselves. And the thing is, the Fedi is only going to get bigger, if it wasn't us specifically, it would have been another server that would have gotten big.
The whole team here has dumped 1000's of hours into keeping this thing alive. It's just rough to see the comments here.
All the best to you and the team, I understand it can be rough. But similarly, I think most of what you wrote could just as well have been written by a Lemmy maintainer:
Lemmy devs are in exactly the same position, and reading the comments in this thread, I am getting the vibe that lemmy.world admins are not willing to see this. Just check the messaging your admins are putting out there (even in the comments under this post), imagine reading that messaging as a Lemmy dev, and tell me it wouldn't feel just as rough.
Btw, I think a clear source of all the negative comments here is not the fact that Sublinks is being developed. Every time Sublinks gets advertised on Lemmy, there is this toxic "finally we can get rid of the original Lemmy dev team" messaging along with it - sometimes it is more hidden between the lines, other times, it's very blatant. This messaging inevitably creates uncertainty in users about the future of their instances. THAT'S the real issue here, at least from my point of view.
I run a community of over 11K almost by myself on reddit and I can't say I struggle to moderate it. Here on Lemmy I post to one I set up, but I'm the only one doing it. That said, I saw virtually no moderation tools, so it would definitely help to have something. However, I don't want my posts to get lost or be spread across two or more communities, as opposed to having everything searchable in one place. What would be the technical obstacle in copying the posts and preserving the dates? If size is an issue, they could be capped to a specific size, only with the metadata transferred in those cases.
Everything will be migrated, WHEN and IF we every swap over.
You're a mod over there eh?
Yes, my reddit activity is pretty much limited to that now. I don't want to abandon the community.
What community?
When's the IPO?
I think next year 1.4.2025
Will there be a user survey too?
We will be looking into that after the current form is over.
Thank you for your great idea! This could give sublinks just a little bit better understanding on the overall situation.
The survey form eats more RAM the longer it's open until it becomes unusable.
Can you help me understand what the first 6 questions have to do with the survey subject of moderation? They seem to collect personal information without direct bearing on anything.
A lot of people here seem to think that Java code is awful and disgusting and no projects should ever use it. The thing about popular languages is that more code existing in a language inevitably means a lot of it ends up being bad. The same thing will likely happen to rust as it gets popular, but that isn't exactly a problem. It's possible to have a well-maintained Java codebase.
Debate between functionality of the actual programming languages at this point is pretty meaningless, if they have good development standards then a Java program could end up just as well maintained as rust. Any time saved by compiler enforcement of specific standards (like no using null) would be lost by the fact that the devs don't know rust tooling. You could just have a requirement in PRs that null isn't used. Both Java and Rust have usable frameworks for REST API development, so using one or the other comes down to familiarity.
The idea that programming languages make code suddenly good or bad is pretty silly. Different languages have different language-level guarantees which can help produce good or working code. That being said, it's not like it's impossible to write good Java code, just like it's not impossible to write bad rust code. Most people seem to be conflating guaranteed functionality and safety with maintainability, stability, and readability. Rust is still a new language, so although it's great, Java will probably be the better choice for the latter 3 qualities.
That being said, something like Kotlin would probably have been a better starting point since it can interact with Java (and works like Java in most cases) but also has some nice improvements like stricter null checking (Kotlin nulls are treated similarly to rust's
Option<T>, it's just described asT?instead and the syntax is generally a lot more concise). There's also the benefit of being able to write some code in Kotlin and some in Java since they are mostly cross-compatible.I generally agree, you can write good and bad code in any language.
However, I also think it is equally naive to think that the tool you use has no influence on the end result. It does have an influence. In my experience, exception-based error handling like that used by Java and many other older languages just doesn't work that well. It's too easy to forget to catch them and make mistakes. And there's a host of other stuff that Rust improves on.
This really shouldn't be surprising. Rust is a newer language, of course it would try to improve the status quo with the experience we've gained from previous languages like Java. It even went and invented whole new concepts like ownership and the borrow checker to make it work. I imagine that future languages will have similar concepts, just like many languages today have garbage collectors or other common functionality.
So yes, programming language choice is a tenuous thing... But I don't think it's correct to say it doesn't matter.
Also if we do entertain the notion that it doesn't matter, the reasoning for Sublinks get even weirder, as the argument that Java is a better choice falls out the window.
Sorry for being unclear, I wasn't trying to say language doesn't make a difference (e.g. static vs. dynamic typing would make a big difference). I also personally like the error handling of rust a lot more, even if it does take a bit getting used to when my education has mostly been in languages with Java-style exception handling.
I mostly meant that the language-level performance and features aren't necessarily holding the codebase back in a debate between Java and Rust for a lemmy-like REST API. As long as the developers are aware of the pitfalls of Java (null, mutation, error-handling, etc.), it's possible to have good code.
I just think that from a maintainability standpoint, a Java-style codebase is much easier for most people to read, understand, and maintain because that's what most people are familiar with. Especially when many of the developers are volunteer contributors, that type of thing could make a big difference.
The main problem with Rust is that it's only starting to get adoption now, it isn't taught in most education curriculums, and it's industry use is pretty small at the moment. It's kind of a catch-22, because rust adoption won't increase unless large projects like lemmy exist. But that's also why I think having more options is also fine. Sublinks might get more developers short term because of its language, but that also doesn't mean it'll completely replace Lemmy. Both projects can exist at the same time, and hopefully benefit from each other's development.
That's fair. I do think Rust has a lot more hype online and in the open source space these days though, so I don't buy that Java would be easier to get more contributors for. We've yet to see that at least.
This is very sad to see... Instead of improving things from within, you are trying to split the community.
?
As long as content still federates, it’s fine. If not, that’s when I start seeing a problem.
What's with the demographics questionnaire? It's an experience survey lol.
Yeah that's the weirdest part.
Whelp, I've spent enough time here to make a decision. As of right now, I love it here, and I don't see that changing. I've decided to go premium, in an effort to support things. I will withdraw that so fast though if I see any reason to do so.
Why do you people seem to love mod tools so much when it comes to causing contraversary but are always late to update instance ver ?
LW is unique in the way that it is by far the largest instance, it makes sense that they want to take their time to update, they usually come up with unique issues.
If people could move away from it to other generalist instances, that would help with the issues. My former main instance, Reddthat, is now unable to fetch votes in a quick way because LW centralizes so much of the users and communities. More details can be be found here: https://reddthat.com/post/16122033
Now that LW is on 0.19.X, users can move to another instance in two clicks from the settings.
Yep, with that upgrade we noticed a increase in federation issues, we are trying to help every other instances, that has federation issue to us to keep them updated.
So if someone has a community on lemmy.world, would they need to move to sublinks at some point? Where and how would one do that? Asking for myself.
Thanks for all your work here.
This will be done automatically, with a migration script. The user doesnt need to do anything.
Nothing should be lost, we will have a announcement up when it comes up. But this will be still at least few months to that day.
Alright, neat! Always happy to go for some FOSS experiments :)
This is the first comment I’ve scrolled to where someone has asked about what moving to Sublinks means in terms of practicality, so I’ll hitch my question here too.
To be sure I understand, are you saying that any existing community will be automatically migrated to Sublinks? Would I need to also create a new user account with Sublinks or would this also be migrated? Posts, comments, up/downvotes? Are those all migrated?
I’m just having trouble understanding what a move to Sublinks means in a very practical sense for users and communities. Is this just a backend change that I—as a user, as a mod—would likely not notice? Thanks for any clarification you can provide.
Everything will be migrated, you will only see some minir downtime when the migration happens. But it will be announced and it will still take some time
Why are .world admins always so hostile? First Antik and now you?
Why does this instance continuously bleed admins? This is why we had an abrupt change on the piracy change
Why was that post shamefully hidden in your community while every donation post and survey pinned for days?
Why do you continuously make up lies about the lemmy developers and spread negativity about them when they promoted this instance at the start of the reddit exodus?
Rookie has a horrible track record with privacy concerns and user-data respect, first with the .world scraper discord bot and now with a microsoft survey?!?
From your reply below it is clear that .world is going to move to sublinks (you are all developing it right?) you mention a script that will automatically move communities there. What about those people that don't want to move, will you allow them to move their community away before you forcefully transfer it?
Will .world federate with Meta on Sublinks or with lemmy?
Will you commit to having a town-hall with the users? This is by far the worst instance for user communication and we deserve to know if that will continue.
What the HECK man?
There's an underlying problem IMO with all Fediverse software and instances, in that because it's made available for free, people get entitled, moderators and admins are obligated to sort of do volunteer work on behalf of people who haven't earned it in order for any of the thing to work, which naturally leads to a inexhaustible wellspring of negative energy because the whole thing isn't right.
I saw the posts of Ruud asking for people to basically interview for a part time admin position and do a job which for skills and time investment is worth from $50k/yr-$200k/yr (calibrating for the fact that it's "only" 5-10 hours per week), and all I could think was whoa no no no this isn't the way. Not saying there's anything wrong with people volunteering their time to make available this great thing, but I think undervaluing them when they decide to do that is almost inevitable, which has follow-on effects that manifest in all kinds of ways and lead to things not being the way they should be. Occasional prickly or unfair behavior by mods or admins represent one example of that; comments like this one represent another.
What on earth is hostile about the OP post in any way?
Well said
Just want to point out that the lemmy.world admins don't owe you anything (unless perhaps you are an active donator, but even then it is a donation, not payment for anything) so you don't "deserve" anything from them.
If you are unhappy with your admins, move to another instance. With 0.19.3, you can export your user settings and import them elsewhere, so moving is quite easy and thankfully there are plenty of other instances.
This. I feel like a broken record repeating this over and over again.
Maybe we should start ![email protected] and post about it in meme form, it might get the message further
The old account is still there if you need to refer to a previous comment.
You "reputation" (in "people recognizing you in comments") can be the same if you keep the same name and avatar.
There are no karma requirements anywhere on Lemmy.
The one I get is moderators that don't want to move their communties, but for individual accounts, there isn't much to lose (and trust me, I have around a dozen alts)
Of course, I think everyone wants that. But don't expect the first place you try to be that place. Or at least, you need some good reasons for why the first place you try will be that place.
I am sorry but the FHF / Lemmy instance admins are just humans. And yeah there is a feature now to export your blocks, community subscriptions and we are not blocking you to use it if you are really sick of us.
I think that people are so used to being consumers of social media that we really don't have the context to behave as guests/partners. This is not a Starbucks - It's a community garden. By the way, someone is still paying for all of the seeds and the water. Someone is showing up to do the gardening. Yeah, the fruits are there for everyone to enjoy, but have a little sense about it.
The .world scrapper discord bot he means the discord verification bot. It simply uses the lemmy api to dm you to verify you are the real AchtungDrempels on discord as on lemmy. To reduce trolls and spammers.
IMO that seems like a reasonable use of resources. I wouldn't want anyone to sit on discord and shit on people in my name.
Exactly what our reasoning was with it. We wanted a reliable way to identify if its really you. And a easy dm verification did that.
EAT IT, CORPO
;)
edit: this is where you grumble "fkn punks"
thanks to instance-wide mod efforts. take the drudgery out of chasing most spammy types. out here getting fat.
The mod team here works very hard to filter spam out, it's actually really bad if you don't have automation and a large team.
Too long a survey, and the tiny communities I mod I've had to take zero actions. But don't do it! Java is a joke of a language, and Jerboa is a fantastic client
it would be nice to have the mod tools be easier to use and access
Comments like this are why that survey was created in the first place. Needing info on how to do things better.
The title and starting was so unlike .world that i for a sec doubted if i was reading instances wrong but oh well seems like a heading to lure you in and bam you with a completely different things.
Lol says they are not corpo and anonymously collecting and then shows microsoft forum down your throat . Also the hello fellow kids type of PS was icing on the cake for me . Thanks for the laugh cheers.
Now be a good little powertrippy mod and remove it as we all know you like to show how strong and big you are by using the mod tools lemmy doesn't 'have" . Also how's suckin up to threads going nowadays ? Lololol
I think you have lost few braincells by writing those sentences.
From our perspective it is more anonymous than having it self hosted. As we could corelate users IPs of lemmy and visitors of the form.
We dont want to get ddosed by some script kiddies too. Because they just dont like LW or so.
And yes, the mod tools are really lacking in many places.
Your reply style here really makes me question how "non-toxic" the development environment will really be.
I am just return the favor. If you give a non toxic/troll comment i would have responded otherwise.
I am sorry if you are feeling attacked.
I'm not the person you replied to.
But your comments are frequently not constructive. At all. That concerns me.
The person i replied to wasnt constructive too? So what is your point?
If it is a point that "microsoft bad!!!!!!!", then yeah thats a valid point. But WHAT is an alternative to that? That is secure, ddos protected and doesnt cost us more than 0$. Additionally who will set it up for one survey? And again, self hosted != more privacy. We see your ip there and on lemmy, so we could theoretically correlate your ip and boom we have your lemmy account, on microsoft forms we dont that.
If you are really concerned that microsoft is doing shady stuff with your correlated answer, then dont use it as simple as that and dont blame someone that is doing this in their free time and for no money.
Cryptpad has forms. There's also Framaforms though I can't say how well it works or whether it would suit your needs.
Ok i will give those alternatives to the sublinks team.
I literally just got permanently banned from reddit because I criticized some mods who mass reported it as "harassment". I'm looking for reddit alternatives and found this. Please tell me the mods here are respectful civil and levelheaded?
If it helps at all, I have had a much better time on here than I ever did on Reddit. It isn't perfect, but I at least feel like I am not going to be punished for existing, even if people disagree with me. All mod logs are public, so there is at least some transparency there. So far, I like lemmy.world and dbzer0.
That actually does help a lot. I just walked out after 11 years, man. It's pretty telling that I'm barely upset about it.
Welcome!
Thank you!
It depends on what instance you joined and what instances you post to.
We try and be as fair as possible here at Lemmy.World / FHF.
Https://legal.lemmy.world
What does that mean? What's an "instance" in lemmy terms?
An instance is a server that provides both a place to login and communities to browse.
You can have a account on Lemmy.World, but browse and comment on communities on servers such as lemm.ee. Likewise folks that have accounts registered on lemm.ee can post on communities on lemmy.world.
The servers talk to each other via the ActivityPub protocol. I've seen folks use the email analogy, but I think it confuses more folks referring to it like that.
Very interesting. I appreciate the info, thank you.
Think of it like email, which is also federated. You've chosen, say, Yahoo, but your email still works with Gmail, Apple, Hotmail, AOL, and whatever else people use these days.
Just to clarify for more techy folks, it can also be a group of servers as well, it's all based off a single domain name for inbound requests. Outbound, they just need to announce the right return domain.
Meh. It depends. I was recently banned from a community for what I thought was a completely innocuous comment. Extrajudicial, too, because the ban never appeared in the modlog. Mods didn't respond to my query. So, yeah, pretty much reddit antics.
Thanks peeps, making this community awesome! People in lemmy have 2000% better critical thinking than other similar social forums.
Had to leave the .world instance because of biased moderators censoring my opinions and admins not giving a shit. If not for Lemmy having a system in place for dealing with ineffective staff I would've left this platform already.
Edit: Never seen so many people rush in to defend a dictatorship. Sickening to be honest.
Same. Got banned from a sub without ever using any inappropriate language or anything offensive, simply because I didn't agree with the general view. And if you say anything people disagree with politically you'll get banned. At least that's what I think because when you get banned, you're not told why and you can't even ask or debate your ban, because nobody in the mod team will ever answer you if you DM them to ask about it.
This site's mods have very quickly turned into Reddit mods
I legitimately thought this at one point, and it quickly developed into a conflicting feeling. That being the reason I left reddit - the march towards enshittification that most recently resulted in third party API lockout - started to seem less egregious to me as Lemmy's top instance condones just as much censorship.
This means that most communities I visit are rooted in .world, and stifle free discourse. It's extremely discouraging, even being that I was free to leave the instance and join another one.
There is always an option where, you can just create your own community ( with hookers and blackjack ) on your current local instance, or just host your instance yourself.
There's not enough users on this platform for that to be a viable option. It should also be no wonder why it's dying.
Yes, its their right to do so, you could create a community where you just ban everyone from the community that you dislike. You can do literally anything you want ( except site rule breaking stuff ) with your community. It depends of course on the instances internal policy, if a instance admin wants or should intervene, for personal or just for management reason. )
There's something about the response: "there's nobody stopping us from being tyrants" that doesn't sit well with me...
Any instance can be as tyrannical (or not) as they want (barring any actual laws in the country where the instance is hosted). If you don't like it, go to another instance.
I didn't ask.
The alternative is forcing every community to abide my the same policies regardless of what they want to build. I'm actually glad that there is a difference between shitposting and serious discussion communities.
They literally do this. Or at least, are supposed to do this. https://join-lemmy.org/docs/code_of_conduct.html
I don't think the statement "you could create a community where you just ban everyone from the community that you dislike" is compatible with a 'welcoming environment for all'.
You are referring to the code of conduct for Lemmy contributors, i.e. developers working on Lemmy. This has nothing to do with how instances are run. The software (Lemmy) has no bearing on how it is used (by the instances).
I highly doubt developers would be working with a different ethical set than instance staff. That makes 0 sense. What would be the point of making the software inclusive if all of the instances can just ignore it and exclude?
I think it's a good thing that people can set up their communities however they wish as long as they don't go against server rules.
That's the thing though, it's in direct opposition to Lemmy's code of conduct, not to mention it's completely off putting to be so blasé about infringements on such an inalienable concept as free speech.
Free speech is not an "inalienable" concept. To be honest, the adjective "inalienable" doesn't well describe a "concept", more "right" or a "privilege". Nobody can take away a concept from you, only the exercise or realisation of that concept.
That said, the Lemmy dev's code of conduct is not a binding document, and given their political views, I wouldn't even bother opening it if I was adminning my own instance. And nobody owes you your freedom of speech - if an instance decides to enforce the rule "no talking about politics on Wednesdays", nobody has any right to anything else. Preference, sure, but right? No.
There are definitely some federated servers that need to be removed from network
Lemmy.ml in particular is being used to push specific voices and banning anyone else
Banned apparently from asklemmy on there because one asshole interpreted me supporting Israel. When my comment exclusively was pointing out that the past the use made was low effort trolling meme in a thread complaining about trolling
So thank you [email protected] for directly evidencing that you, and your node are hateful little agenda pushing shits.
I want to love lemmy
But the federated model will fail if nodes like the .ml continue to online and assholes like this mod have zero accountability
I honestly don’t feel like because I’d these problems this site is any better than Reddit.
We also need the power to block a node completely from our feeds.(found it in filters)Also to block and ban entire nodes from our own communities as i don’t want any lemmy.ml users in my subKeep being salty little shits ml users. Your proving the point to the rest of the lemmy world
The biggest mod tool: manual ban entry for preventing certain users. Looking for a way to ban from a community an individual before they show up.
Need to make the same communities on different instances to offer alternatives with different mods.
Come on over to lemm.ee kids! We will stay on Lemmy and don’t curate your feed ❤️
You mean lemm.ee, huh? :)
Yeah 😞