Spyke
lemmy.world

I love living in a car free city. I can't believe America doesn't build more cities like mine.

65
TrickDacyreply
lemmy.world

Huh, weird that when I was there, there were literally thousands of cars. Probably just hallucinated it

31
TrickDacyreply
lemmy.world

For years I've somehow missed this. Cars driving on nearly every street and somehow that "car-free", yeah makes perfect sense.

16
lemmy.ml

I think it's because the bar is so low, just the ability to choose to walk for everyday commuting, errands, and leisure qualifies as car free. Ie, you can choose to be car free if you want.

14

Oh. So you mean the places where you have to be rich to live at a nice place, while everyone else has to live in a tiny apartment in a huge building that's been borderline uninhabitable since the 1970's?

5

Yeah I don't understand that at all. I thought car free meant a place, usually a part of town, where cars are not allowed. Those places exist. So to call places nothing like that "car free" seems pretty useless imo

1

I guess that's one way to understand that word.

Colloquially it is used to refer to the capability of a place that allows its inhabitants to live car free.

Completely banning cars is rarely a demand because it makes no sense. A car is not a problem, hundreds of them are. Especially if they are used and required for everyday mundane tasks.

2

The only city that I know of that fits that definition is Venice, Italy. I've been able to live car free in SF for 10 years.

5

I would make every city Macinac Island if I could, minus the horses.

2

SF and Oakland aren't car-free, they are car outsourced. You don't drive, you have someone drive you. Other then a very narrow stretch of Down Town SF to Oakland, most of that metro area isn't served by public transit. Unlike say NYC where most of the metro area IS served by public transit. (It's still not car free though.)

8
Elmerfuddzreply
lemmy.world

So do you still utilize Uber or driving services? If so you’re still dependent.

1

I've used taxis a handful of times over the past 10 years. Mostly for surgery related things.

1
lemmy.ca

I'm living a car-free lifestyle, despite holding a license to drive. It's more freedom than I've ever had.

53

I sometimes make the mistake of driving to college because it's faster. I'm always way less happy and focused (and sad cause of having to pay for parking). Ebikes are the shit. It's about 15 minutes driving and a 25-30 minute bike ride.

15

Been there at times. It's great not having to pay and worry about a car (done that at times as well). Yet, if you need to move house or get somewhere difficult, you can lease or borrow a car or van. And you can be an extra driver on trips.

10
ttrpg.network

I feel like this is people about most things. Most people aren't very imaginative.

They're kind of stupidly in favor of how things are, but once it changes they're like this is great I don't know why we didn't do it before.

Like imagine if free public libraries didn't exist and someone tried to create them. Conservatives would shit their pants hating it.

45
megopiereply
lemmy.blahaj.zone

Yah, Plenty of liberals shit them selves when you suggest giving an unalloyed good away for free.

7

Conservatives wouldn't create libraries at all.

Liberals will create libraries by contracting it to private companies who mismanage and embezzle.

3
infosec.pub

Might be a fun social experiment to propose a public gun lending armory. Like a library, you can walk in and check-out an AK-47 for a day or week for free. But just like the library charges for printed pages, you would have to pay for the ammo.

1
lemmy.world

I think there should be libraries for all sorts of things. For example, everyone on my street has their own lawnmower, trimmer, etc. And very rarely do people mow their lawns at the exact same time. It would be a lot more efficient if there was a place to check out the lawnmower to mow your lawn and put it away for someone else to use.

7

My city has a tool library program that sounds exactly like this (I haven’t tried it yet, not sure how well it works in practice). Would be especially nice for one-off sorts of tools you don’t expect to use often.

The downside is you’d need to line up your project with their hours, and hope no one else is using it when you need it. But if you have the flexibility to plan ahead, could be a nifty resource.

2

That's a neat idea.

Of course, conservatives would oppose it. They'd probably say that it's socialism and thus axiomatically bad.

And that it's simply impossible to keep those shared tools in good repair while actively sabotaging the program.

Some people are just anti social.

2

That would be pretty cool actually. Some gun ranges already do this kind of thing but only on the premises.

1

IMO part of the fix for that is liberating psychedelics. There has been some research finding that if someone takes psilocybin (shrooms) before they reach the age of 35, they are significantly more open minded for the rest of their life. Though I’m not sure how they controlled for the question as to whether the drug makes people more psychologically flexible or whether they are more psychologically flexible in the first place if they are willing to try it.

Either way, it seems to naturally follow that conservatives proportionally tend to avoid psychedelics. It’s anecdotal but my fellow psychonauts are all liberal.

1
Kecessareply
sh.itjust.works

My friend went to France back in the day and blew people's minds when he rolled a tobacco free joint

5

Never really put tobacco in a joint, but i do love to spliff my blunts. The tobacco really smooths out the weed and is calming.

3
Nakedmolereply
lemmy.world

So you don´t like blunts? Why do you even mind how others enjoy their weed, just let people do their thing, smh ...

1
lemmy.one

If that’s what people want to do on their own, that’s fine. My issue is when they hand it to you saying it’s a joint, only to be surprised when it’s basically a cigarette with a tiny bit of weed sprinkled in. I hate smoking tobacco.

I’ve quickly learned to always ask what is actually in it before accepting.

9
Nakedmolereply
lemmy.world

My issue is when they hand it to you saying it’s a joint, only to be surprised when it’s basically a cigarette with a tiny bit of weed sprinkled in.

Agreed, that is in fact pretty disgusting. I was thinking of a 1:1 ratio at max, with less tobacco than that it should not be called a joint.

4

If I use any tobacco at all, its just pure tobacco at the tip as a filter. You dont really smoke it if you dont want to, but it prevents wasted flowers

2
Matengorreply
lemmy.ml

To be fair, that's just what's called a joint in Germany. Maybe a 70/30 ratio of tobacco to weed.

0
lemmy.one

Yeah, I’ve been living in Germany. Learned quite quickly to never trust a “joint”.

Ya’ll should learn the word “spliff”. That’s what it’s for.

2
Matengorreply
lemmy.ml

Well that's just from my perception in the Rhineland region in the 90s and 2000s.

Of course, we used mainly other terms like Dübel, Tüte or Sportzigarette.

How would you differ?

1

I did not refer to the name but to the ratio. It very much depends on the scene imo. It reaches from pure weed in the reggae scene, a 1:1 mix in the hiphop scene, to almost pure tobacco in "weekend weed smoker" scenes and also just depends a lot on the individual who rolled. That is of course only my personal experience.

2
lemmy.ml

"What seems to work best is a carrot-and-stick approach—creating positive reasons to take a bus or to cycle rather than just making driving harder."

I guess this is why we shouldn't only play the "fuck cars" tune but also include melodies like "we love to bike" and "public transport is fun" 😉

30

Public transport IS fun! Much easier to masturbate on the train than while driving a car

13
Aganimreply
lemmy.world

public transport is fun

Unfortunately here public transport is seen as something best left to 'the market', instead of treating it as a public commodity which gets its economic value from enabling people to contribute to economy by enabling them to get to work, go shopping etc. So now ticket prices are ridiculous, to the point where taking the car is 2-3 times cheaper. And of course you'll need to get to said transport first. Need a bus? If you do not live in a city or larger town you're just shit out of luck after 18:00 or so. Need to be somewhere, somewhat early in the morning? Wel tough luck for you, make sure to have somebody with a car standby to drop you off at the nearest train station. I want to like public transport and consider it fun, but my experience every time I try it is pain, suffering and awkward schedules instead. ☹️

8
lemmy.world

Okay, now factor in car insurance and maintenance costs. I don't buy your statement "taking the car is 2-3 times cheaper".

12
Matengorreply
lemmy.ml

It's definitely not generally cheaper in Germany if you only need to move regional. But I'm interested in a comparison with any other country. I guess an urban area would be a requirement for a fair comparison.

1

If you care to look further into this, look for cost per kilometer estimates, factoring all the costs of owning your own vehicle vs. the cost per kilometer of taking public transit.

1

Depends on how badly gouged your "local" prices are...

Where I live some train lines have gotten way better in recent times, others still cost an arm and a leg with unreliable trains and if you allow amortized car costs the car might still be competitive... (although I absolutely grant you that utility factoring in the amount of stuff you can do on a train ride both long and short is way way higher than while driving)

1
uisreply

Interesting. In Russia people perceive private bus companies as unreliable and expensive marshrutkas and municipal buses as something that will come no matter what. And this is why here people want municipalization of public transport.

5
AAAreply
feddit.de

Unfortunately it's easier (say: cheaper) to make driving so expensive and hard that it makes public transport look like the carrot, than actually making public transport more attractive so it actually becomes the carrot.

7
lemmy.ml

I imagine bikes will be very useful in making US cities walkable. The streets have been built very wide to make space for cars, which would make walking more tedious, but bikes are the perfect solution to this bc they let you cover more (flat) distance with just the power of your legs.

30

Every two lane road has enough space for four lanes of bicycles (one passing lane for ebikes and one lane for normal bikes going in each direction)

13
lemmy.world

The only thing keeping me from regularly using bikes or ebikes for short distance travel are the cars and trucks sharing the same space that ignore bike lanes and try to get as close as they can to you when they pass you, and if I try to use the largely unused sidewalks and dip into the street to avoid the occasional pedestrians I get a ticket.

8
lemm.ee

ignore bike lanes and try to get as close as they can to you when they pass you

That's why protected bike lanes are the ideal, preferably grade separated from the road. Remove the problem via infrastructure, and more people will bike.

2

Why would anyone hate that? To me it sounds like a utopia. I just had to buy new tires for my car @#$%*!

27
lemmy.world

Boomers. I was blown away when I went to a city hall meeting about expanding the roads and hearing their hot takes.

After the wave of old boomers (most of the audience) complained about how dangerous the whole world has become that they can't even take their trash out on the street, they say a walkable city just opens up "more danger".

To them, walkable streets means seeing more diversity, which is apparently super scary.

37
sopuli.xyz

It makes perfect sense when you understand modern city design as a form of mostly unconscious but purposeful violence, that pretty much defines the middle class Boomer generation in wealthy rich countries. Structural violence… as far as the eye can see!

US Boomers love that shit, the prison system, healthcare, highway design, the tax filing system the list just goes on and on.

I really wish my parents generation could have just been skipped and instead I had parents from the previous generation who actually fought for something and understood how to defend workers rights.

15

“Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times.“

2

Yeah, what about my property values?? Will someone think of my property valuessss 😭😭😭

9
lemmy.world

I love living car free with my needs in walking/biking distance. However I feel like the car centric problem runs deeper than basic groceries and transit to work. I live near the gorgeous rocky mountains, but our buses only really run to the ski slopes, and only in winter. It's a true shame to be so close to nature and have my option for access restricted to a rental car. So naturally there's a plan to build the worlds largest gondola directly to resorts to address traffic. Cause god forbid we just ran more effective bus service year round.

24
BluesFreply
lemmy.world

Gondolas are probably a lot more efficient than busses though, I'd have thought.

7
hashreply
lemmy.world

But they will not stop at any trailheads, just the resorts. Additionally it is unnecessarily expensive to build and ride. Also the additional environmental impact of building and maintaining it rather than using existing roads. It's purely being built for convenience to reduce traffic in/out of the canyon.

5

Gondolas can actually work as public transit. Depending on terrain they are actually a very efficient solution. You can find them in a few cities.

5
lemmy.world

Show me a car free neighborhood and I'll show you insane real estate prices due to demand.

21

Then people will point to those prices as proof it's a "failure" then spend 2-3x what they "save" on housing on auto loans/expenses.

5
lemmy.world

I dream of the day I can bike safely to my places. Right now I basically have the supermarket and two bars in distance, and then it's a mess of double lane roads and highway ramps before I get to any bike friendly paths to go further afield. It really sucks.

20

Send an email to your local council. Attach photos, explain what could solve your horrible situation. Nothing will probably happen, but if many people start asking those things officially, in the long run it may help.

2
infosec.pub

I don’t think a car-free city actually exists. The article mentions Copenhagen:

“[London] has avoided the kind of outright car bans seen elsewhere in Europe, such as in Copenhagen”

I’ve been to Copenhagen. There are cars throughout the city. There are some cycle-only paths that connect to intersections with cars. I cycled along side cars all over the city. Apparently Wired is calling car-reduced cities and cities with small car-free regions a “car-free city”.

Exceptionally, Brussels is a car-free city but for only one day out of the year. And car-free day falls on a Sunday. On that day it becomes illegal to drive a car in the city center without a special pass after showing you have good reason to use a car on that day. But even on that day, the outer region of Brussels is unaffected.

9

I live in Copenhagen and only own a bike. The amount of cars and their size has risen drastically the last 10 years, it sucks. Almost nowhere in the city is actually car-free, but there are bike paths almost everywhere which is nice.

7
lemmy.ml

Is there a FAQ about living in car free cities? For example, how do you travel to another city? What do you do if the city has high slopes making walking and biking too hard? Or how do elders deal with what other citizens would take for granted in terms of mobility?

19
monobotreply
lemmy.ml

how do you travel to another city?

Usually by bus or train.

What do you do if the city has high slopes making walking and biking too hard?

Walking is good for you, biking is not too popular in cities with slopes, but electic bikes are changing that.

Or how do elders deal with what other citizens would take for granted in terms of mobility?

There is definitely less mobility, but that is part of getting older isn't it? Usually they just walk a bit slower and use busses and taxies.

25
lemmy.world

Or how do elders deal with what other citizens would take for granted in terms of mobility?

Electric mobility scooters as well. I'm sure those are capable of much better range now, and it should keep getting better, and everything they need would ideally be close by

16
lemmy.world

And what about cities with cold winters and tons of snow? 10 minutes outside here is no joke

-7
lemmy.world

I live in Toronto, and I don't have a car. I use buses and subways for most of my commute in winter. Along with these options, I use bikeshare (public bicycle rentals) in every other season. There are people who bike even in winter but I'm nowhere close to that hardcore.

I've spent maybe $250 on uber in urgent/lazy situations in the last one year - that would've been a monthly auto insurance payment.

I waited for a bus for around 20 minutes in -18°C a few weeks back. The biggest problem was that I had overdressed so I started sweating and had to unzip a layer.

An important fact that people who have only ever lived in suburbs miss is that you don't have to commute thaaat far thaaat often when you live in walkable cities. My cousin who lives in a suburb, drives for ~20 minutes to get to the closest big box store. I have 5 options for groceries in a 1 km radius and one of them is just one block over. So, I don't even need a bus for groceries, let alone a car. We have seniors who definitely shouldn't be driving walking around with grocery carts on the sidewalks. So, reducing car dependency improves mobility - not the opposite.

13
lemmy.world

I drove from Dallas to Toronto in 2017 (you know, for fun), and I was amazed not only at how trim almost everyone looked but also at how many fucking people were on bicycles. Coming from the concrete jungle that is DFW, it was genuinely inspiring.

3

I'm happy to report that the number is cyclists is increasing every year with the addition of more bike lanes and a growing network of bikeshare stations. :)

3

You dress appropriately for the weather and the city actually bothers to clear the bike path quickly when it snows. Oulu does it that way.

10

I'm going to let you in on a secret, even though our Canadian cities are shit for people with a car there are still thousands of people in every city who get by year after year without one, because they can't afford to buy one.

Not having a car sucks, but it is not a death sentence and would be a hell of a lot better if our cities didn't assume everyone had one.

2

Wouldn't the elderly be a huge benefiter of a car free city? You get old enough or frail enough that you can't drive. Then what?

I like in a city that provides free busses and trains to those aged 65+ if they ride in off peak hours, and it's heavily used. This is in a city designed around cars.

15
Strykkerreply
programming.dev

Also "car free" doesn't have to mean literally zero cars allowed, but just build and layout the city so you never have to use one for daily errands.

I live next to a grocery store and it's literally the best thing ever, grocery trips take 10 minutes max, I only end up using the car on weekends for hobbies or to visit family and friends.

24

From what I've seen from Not Just Bikes, there's also car-sharing. There are services to make it super easy to borrow a car for as little as a few hours if you just need to lug some furniture or something.

8
lemmy.ml

"Car-free cities" gave the wrong idea. I'd call them walk-friendly cities instead, but I guess that ship has already sailed. Thank you for sharing your knowledge and first-hand experience.

3

The term "city" can actually be confusing too since it might mean the most central district of a metropolitan area, or it could mean the whole metropolitan area. There is some desire to make the most central parts car free in the way you thought (usually street by street in the centre of the CBD etc), but generally the broader area will not be.

2

I live in suburbia and the grocery store on the edge of my neighborhood is accessible via a dirt desire path. This beats so many of my friends neighborhoods, but these numbskulls couldn't pour the 20 feet of sidewalk to connect the commercial to the residential, even though the sidewalk has a 2 foot long spur where it should be. 100% car brained.

Still, running to the store on my bike is just as fast as driving, if not a few mins faster.

1
Turunreply
feddit.de

For example, how do you travel to another city?

Train or car. Car free mostly refers to inner city trips, for special occasions it's totally fine to use a car (e.g. moving, buying something big, a weekend trip, etc)

What do you do if the city has high slopes making walking and biking too hard?

Bus, ebikes, other types of electric assist stuff, walking. Crazy steep slopes do put a limit on exclusively human powered mobility (i.e. walking and cycling), but those places are incredibly rare.

Or how do elders deal with what other citizens would take for granted in terms of mobility?

A walkable city features amenities close by, plenty of benches to rest, and a solid bus system. There are absolutely no issues for people with restricted mobility. This applies to people with disabilities as well btw.

In fact I would turn that question around: how do elders deal with the requirement to drive a car to get groceries, etc? Isn't that like super duper dangerous?

18
lemmy.ml

Thank you for your detailed reply. I was under the impression that cars and buses were out of the question. This clarifies a lot. Ebikes and electric devices, however, sound to me like something futuristic, probably because I live in latinamerica.

Steep-slope places are not the norm almost anywhere, but they are not really that scarce here. We probably would need to make some technological catch up.

About elders driving, well, it's common that they have cars although they can't/shouldn't drive them. Some younger ones can step in and volunteer, usually family members, but not only. An arrangement can always be made when young people hardly owns a car.

5
infosec.pub

Ebikes and electric devices, however, sound to me like something futuristic

There are kits enabling you to convert a muscle bike (push bike) into an e-bike. If you get one with a torque sensor, then it will detect how hard you push on the pedals and drive the motor proportional to that force. So you still must pedal but it amplifies your effort which preserves the natural feel and control of pedaling. It essentially makes the hills go away; a hilly place becomes a flat place.

6

That sounds cool. I'd still prefer to take a bus to feel safer in my car-centric town, but one can imagine living somewhere you just fire up your EPV and be gone. I reckon it requires very engaged local authorities.

1

Steep-slope places are not the norm almost anywhere, but they are not really that scarce here. We probably would need to make some technological catch up.

No worries Switzerland and Austria have you covered. Gondolas are only suitable for people and lighter loads, but funiculars can carry a ton of weight and can be built quite steep indeed, Chile has quite a few of them. In less extreme cases there's good old rack railways. Funiculars are actually the oldest type of public transport in the world, invented before the industrial revolution, back then operated by water power (fill a tank in the top car, it will pull the bottom car up), and rack rail isn't exactly new. The oldest were built to get stuff up and down from castles. Gondolas of the Mi Teleficero type are quite a bit newer and can reach quite impressive throughput numbers as the gondolas are unhooked from the wire in stations to make it possible to have a fast wire while not having to sprint when getting on (usually they move about at like 1/2 walking pace in the stations but you can also stop them completely for the elderly).

5

how do elders deal with the requirement to drive a car to get groceries, etc? Isn’t that like super duper dangerous?

Judging by some folks I've seen driving around with oxygen tubes in their noses: They just drive. And, yes, it is dangerous.

3
lemmy.ml

It's cool and all, but trains have fixed routes that can't take you almost everywhere. Of course I'd prefer trains over highways, just stating the current fact. Take for example every city I've lived in Mexico: trains never were an option to travel between cities. That's changing, fortunately.

PEVs are still not very common around here, but that answers some questions. Thanks for your reply.

1

sensible places have enough railways that trains can practically take you everywhere, used to be that here in sweden we had railways even to teensy tiny villages a lot of the time.

3
Hanrahanreply
slrpnk.net

Or how do elders deal with what other citizens would take for granted in terms of mobility?

Currently they alll use little electric mobility scooters, in cycle lanes when available, bacause its too dangerous to be any where there are cars here in Australia.

How do those with epilepsy get around, they can't drive at least they can't here in Australia. One lady with epilepsy I knew rode a little electric scoot, she loved having her independence.

What happens to people when they loose thier license in the US ?

8

I couldn't tell. Barely know the US and it's been a long time. Those were questions over the top of my head, out of curiosity, and coming from the wrong assumption that these cities were totally car-free with the only exception of emergency vehicles.

3

how do you travel to another city

Car co-ops is one way.

I have a car, but I'm also in one as it gives me access to different vehicle types that I sometimes need.

To get some places here I also need to take a ferry, and walking on and renting a car on the other end can be situationally cheaper.

7

What do you do if the city has high slopes making walking and biking too hard?

E-bikes and regular bikes with good gearing. And walking up slopes generally isn't too challenging it's just slow. Infrastructure can help here too by making sure there are paths that don't go up hills unnecessarily. Fast and frequent public transport provides another option where walking and biking is less viable.

For example, how do you travel to another city?

Trains and buses. Car as a last resort (preferably one that is hired rather than owned, and preferably electric rather than an ICE).

Or how do elders deal with what other citizens would take for granted in terms of mobility?

Elderly people can't (or shouldn't) drive either so better walkability = better for the elderly since it gives options to get around without relying on a car. Good infrastructure design can help with disability access, and many disabled people can't drive anyway.

3
lemmy.world

Don't know about other Americans, but I would love to be able to have this kind of lifestyle. It's just not realistic over here due to the infrastructure. It's not within my power to make the changes necessary for it though.

18

It's crazy to see how the city centre of Ghent (Belgium) changed when they banned non-emergency cars from people not living/working in the centre. It went from some huge carparks with a few people walking between them to large squares filled with people enjoying the city and people who live here.

Every day I bike besides the Coupure channel to the train station and in the city I work in, I walk to the office besides the Dender river. Good infrastructure is basically keeping my mental health afloat.

15
lemmy.world

My 2 cents: Living in a climate that gets all the seasons, a car makes things much easier in the winter for numerous reasons. Also, as someone that lives with chronic pain issues, walking or biking places on a daily is quite difficult for me, again, having a car resolves this.

12
pedzreply

Ah yes, winter! I live in a wintery place (Quebec) and cars in winter need very much care to work properly. They need plowed and salted streets or they get stuck or can't go uphill. If that level of care was the same for pedestrians and cyclists, it would be much easier to move around without a car.

Also, you may need a car because of chronic pain but surely not everyone driving a car needs one for chronic pain? And wouldn't it be nicer for people that really need a car if there were fewer cars around?

I'm in my early 40ies and lived all those winters without a car and I still think it's silly to say they are "adapted" or "working well" in winter. Every winter there are multi car collisions/pile-ups on highways. They slip and slide easily. Multiple times in a year cars can't climb the little hill in front of my place. It takes even more space to park them as there are snowbanks everywhere. Sometimes they get covered in ice.

I really can't see the appeal of a car in winter.

13

Good quality public transit can solve those issues as well. We should have a variety of options available for a variety of people who need them.

13
whereiskreply
lemmy.world

I think the term "car free" is a misnomer, more like "car as a non primary form of transport for most people most of the time" is more accurate but doesn't roll off the tongue as well.

There are a lot of people with mobility issues in such cities that are serviced in different ways, a lot of times with specially licensed cars etc.

12

I like the term multi-modal. Everybody should have access to all kind of modes of transportation. And you can pick the best fit depending on your task.

Going to the dentist? Bike. Getting bread at the bakery? Walk. Commuting? Train. Heavy stuff to get to your parents' house? Carsharing. And so on.

3

Yeah, I hate the term "car-free". That said, even for someone who primarily uses a car, advocating for bike lanes and public transit makes sense, as the fewer people there are taking up road space and parking, the easier it is for you to drive / park.

12

Yeah, it gets to 48C in the summer here and biking or walking is not a preferred option unless showering at workplaces becomes a new norm

3

I'm almost there.. The area I live in basically all my needs are within 3 miles

11
lemmy.ml

I lived across the street from a department store, a grocery, some pizza places, a "smoke" shop, video game stores, and everything else I could want on a normal day. It was amazing. I walked everywhere except to work. I miss living there. The main downside was that it was in Florida.

11
Wes_Devreply
lemmy.ml

Nah, it was Orlando, but not the city proper, more like one of the smaller areas around the actual city. Trying not to give too much away, but it was near Altamonte Springs.

3
cmbabulreply
lemmy.world

Sorry wasn’t trying to have you dox yourself, I actually do know Orlando pretty well so I think I know where you mean

2
lemmy.nz

Article is paywalled after the first paragraph. Can anyone post the text ?

10
n3m37hreply
lemmy.dbzer0.com

London had a problem. In 2016, more than 2 million of the city’s residents—roughly a quarter of its population—lived in areas with illegal levels of air pollution; areas that also contained nearly 500 of the city’s schools. That same air pollution was prematurely killing as many as 36,000 people a year. Much of it was coming from transport: a quarter of the city’s carbon emissions were from moving people and goods, with three-quarters of that emitted by road traffic.

But in the years since, carbon emissions have fallen. There’s also been a 94 percent reduction in the number of people living in areas with illegal levels of nitrogen dioxide, a pollutant that causes lung damage. The reason? London has spent years and millions of pounds reducing the number of motorists in the city.

It’s far from alone. From Oslo to Hamburg and Ljubljana to Helsinki, cities across Europe have started working to reduce their road traffic in an effort to curb air pollution and climate change.

But while it’s certainly having an impact (Ljubljana, one of the earliest places to transition away from cars, has seen sizable reductions in carbon emissions and air pollution), going car-free is a lot harder than it seems. Not only has it led to politicians and urban planners facing death threats and being doxxed, it has forced them to rethink the entire basis of city life.

London’s car-reduction policies come in a variety of forms. There are charges for dirtier vehicles and for driving into the city center. Road layouts in residential areas have been redesigned, with one-way systems and bollards, barriers, and planters used to reduce through-traffic (creating what are known as “low-traffic neighborhoods”—or LTNs). And schemes to get more people cycling and using public transport have been introduced. The city has avoided the kind of outright car bans seen elsewhere in Europe, such as in Copenhagen, but nevertheless things have changed.

“The level of traffic reduction is transformative, and it’s throughout the whole day,” says Claire Holland, leader of the council in Lambeth, a borough in south London. Lambeth now sees 25,000 fewer daily car journeys than before its LTN scheme was put in place in 2020, even after adjusting for the impact of the pandemic. Meanwhile, there was a 40 percent increase in cycling and similar rises in walking and scooting over that same period.

What seems to work best is a carrot-and-stick approach—creating positive reasons to take a bus or to cycle rather than just making driving harder. “In crowded urban areas, you can’t just make buses better if those buses are still always stuck in car traffic,” says Rachel Aldred, professor of transport at the University of Westminster and director of its Active Travel Academy. “The academic evidence suggests that a mixture of positive and negative characteristics is more effective than either on their own.”

For countries looking to cut emissions, cars are an obvious target. They make up a big proportion of a country’s carbon footprint, accounting for one-fifth of all emissions across the European Union. Of course, urban driving doesn’t make up the majority of a country’s car use, but the kind of short journeys taken when driving in the city are some of the most obviously wasteful, making cities an ideal place to start if you’re looking to get people out from behind the wheel. That, and the fact that many city residents are already car-less (just 40 percent of people in Lambeth own cars, for example) and that cities tend to have better public transport alternatives than elsewhere.

Plus, traffic-reduction programmes also have impacts beyond reducing air pollution and carbon emissions. In cities like Oslo and Helsinki, thanks to car-reduction policies, entire years have passed without a single road traffic death. It’s even been suggested that needing less parking could free up space to help ease the chronic housing shortage felt in so many cities.

But as effective as policies to end or reduce urban car use have been, they’ve almost universally faced huge opposition. When Oslo proposed in 2017 that its city center should be car-free, the backlash saw the idea branded as a “Berlin Wall against motorists.” The plan ended up being downgraded into a less ambitious scheme consisting of smaller changes, like removing car parking and building cycle lanes to try to lower the number of vehicles.

In London, the introduction of LTNs has also led to a massive backlash. In the east London borough of Hackney, one councilor and his family were sent death threats due to their support for the programme. Bollards were regularly graffitied, while pro-LTN activists were accused of “social cleansing.” It was suggested that low-traffic areas would drive up house prices and leave the only affordable accommodation on unprotected roads. “It became very intimidating,” says Holland. “I had my address tweeted out twice, with sort of veiled threats from people who didn’t even live in the borough saying that we knew they knew where I lived.”

Part of that response is a testament to how much our cities, and by extension, our lives are designed around cars. In the US, between 50 and 60 percent of the downtowns of many cities are dedicated to parking alone. While in the UK that figure tends to be smaller, designing streets to be accessible to a never-ending stream of traffic has been the central concern of most urban planning since the Second World War. It’s what led to the huge sprawl of identikit suburban housing on the outskirts of cities like London, each sporting its own driveway and ample road access.

“If you propose this idea to the average American, the response is: if you take my car away from me, I will die,” says J. H. Crawford, the author of the book Carfree Cities and a leading figure in the movement to end urban car use. “If you do that overnight, without making any other provisions, that’s actually approximately correct.” Having the right alternatives to cars is therefore vital to reducing city traffic.

And any attempts to reduce urban car use tend to do better when designed from the bottom up. Barcelona’s “superblocks” programme, which takes sets of nine blocks within its grid system and limits cars to the roads around the outside of the set (as well as reducing speed limits and removing on-street parking) was shaped by having resident input on every stage of the process, from design to implementation. Early indicators suggest the policy has been wildly popular with residents, has seen nitrogen dioxide air pollution fall by 25 percent in some areas, and will prevent an estimated 667 premature deaths each year, saving an estimated 1.7 billion euros.

When it comes to design, there’s also the question of access. Whether it’s emergency services needing to get in or small businesses awaiting deliveries, there’s an important amount of “last mile” traffic—transport that gets people or things to the actual end point of their journey—that is vital to sustaining an urban area. If you want to reduce traffic, you have to work around that and think of alternative solutions—such as allowing emergency vehicles access to pedestrianized areas, or even using automatic number plate recognition to exempt emergency vehicles from the camera checks that are used to police through-traffic in LTNs (which is what Lambeth is doing, Holland says).

But even then, it’s often just hard to convince people an entirely different city layout is possible. Getting people to accept that how they live alongside cars can be changed—say, with an LTN—takes time. But government surveys of the UK’s recently implemented LTNs have indicated that support from residents for such schemes increases over time. “If you start seeing more and more of those kinds of things, things become thinkable,” explains Aldred. If you start unpicking the idea that car use can’t be changed, “it starts to become possible to do more and more things without cars for people.”

The other issue is that, to put it simply, cars are never just cars. They’re interwoven into our culture and consumption as symbols of affluence, independence, and success, and the aspiration to achieve those things in future. “A man who, beyond the age of 26, finds himself on a bus can count himself a failure,” the British prime minister Margaret Thatcher reportedly once said. “That’s how we got in this mess in the first place, though,” says Crawford. “Everybody saw that the rich people were driving cars, and they wanted to too.”

That divide goes some way to explaining why the opposition to car-reduction schemes is often so extreme and can devolve into a “culture war”—which is what Holland has found in her experience with LTNs. But that struggle also outlines an important fact about car-free urban areas—that once cities make the decision to reduce or remove cars, they rarely go back. No one I spoke to for this piece could name a recent sizable pedestrianization or traffic-reduction scheme that had been reversed once it had been given time to have an effect.

Many of the cities that pioneered reducing car use—like Copenhagen in the 1970s—are rated today as some of the best places to live in the world. Even with London’s experimental and often unpopular LTN scheme, 100 of the 130 low-traffic areas created have been kept in place, Aldred says.

“Generally speaking, if a sensible program is adopted to really reduce or eliminate car usage in a central urban area, it seems to stick,” says Crawford. “If you go back a year or two later, people will just say: well, this is the best thing we ever did.”

Reaching net zero emissions by 2050 will require innovative solutions at a global scale. In this series, in partnership with the Rolex Perpetual Planet initiative, WIRED highlights individuals and communities working to solve some of our most pressing environmental challenges. It’s produced in partnership with Rolex but all content is editorially independent. Find out more.

25
n3m37hreply
lemmy.dbzer0.com

Use No script to bypass paywalls. I'd recommend using a seperate browser ya norm don't use because it can break lots of websites

3

Thanks for the rec :) I tried one of those extensions a while ago and it didn't help me so I uninstalled it, maybe I'll give no script a go. I'll probably just turn it off and on as needed

To be totally honest a lot of why I appreciate you just pasting the whole thing is cause I'm only ever browsing via my phone and my phone is a decrepit piece of garbage so I don't usually go to links unless they seem extremely compelling 😅 I probably wouldn't have read the article had you not shared it in the comments, and I'm glad I read it, it was a good article

Hope you have a good one :)

2

I don't live in a car-free city, but I wish I would. Fuck cars and especially fuck the people in them. I live in a pedestrian zone, but connected to the main artery through the city. You would think that labeling something as a pedestrian zone would reduce the amount of cars going through, but no, it's just a second main street. Might as well take down the ped zone sign, it gets ignored anyway, so why waste money making one?

10

When we have a pedestrian zone here, there are bollards at each end. It tends to discourage most cars.

6
lemmy.world

I wouldn’t mind being able to give up my car and truck. But since I’m out in rural parts. It wouldn’t workout too well when it came to other needs.

9
PastaCecireply
lemmy.ml

I lived in rural places without a car. This is an American problem because of policy not because you are rural.

6
Elmerfuddzreply
lemmy.world

I have trailers I use haul firewood and such. I burn about 3 quarts a year.

5
PastaCecireply
lemmy.ml

Normal people outside of America in rural places live in communities that can arrange for firewood delivery. The only reason you need your own truck is because you don't have any semblance of infrastructure, community or mutual aid. This is a policy choice and a failure of your culture.

16

I've lived in a rural area and my neighbors were always happy to lend me something if I needed it. If I needed a truck to haul wood I could just borrow one, or even get it delivered.

2

So if I didn’t have a truck and you don’t have a truck. Nobody 20 miles around you doesn’t have a truck. What you do now? What you’re saying is you rely on others. Thats nice and all, but at some point you need to do stuff “Yourself”.

1

Well thank you! So if everyone relied on the same service for firewood. It be like Amazon where it’ll take 3 days minimum to get it. Plus I pay next to nothing. My land has trees. I cut them down, and then replant new quarter grown trees. Not everything is delivery like some are thinking.

1
Habahnowreply
sh.itjust.works

Not the person you replied too, but US is so large, I can imagine there's situations where policy can't support those sorts of things. Not mention the fact that people who live in rural areas are more likely to have a culture of not wanting to interact with others and doing things on their own. Regardless, many of the policy changes to reduce car usage are really aimed at reducing car usage in dense areas rather than outright bans or the like. If these policies continue to work out in the US, the relatively few people living in rural areas with vehicles wouldn't be problematic (in terms of causing traffic nor causing injuries/deaths)

1
Habahnowreply
sh.itjust.works

I feel this is such an dramatic and reaching response it's almost like your intentionally being obtuse.

Some people like reducing their reliance on other people. It seems I need to emphasize the word REDUCE. I chose that word specifically instead of remove because as you pointed out, removing reliance on others is very difficult. These people sre the type of people I am referring to when I say they like to do things on their own.

1

They are propagandized and agents for the global empire. Their feelings about independence is bullshit and they are a drain on the rest of the world subsidizing their lifestyle.

0
Elmerfuddzreply
lemmy.world

Wood is over priced and I have land that I cut trees down and replant new ones as I go.

1
PastaCecireply
lemmy.ml

The US is in no way exceptional or different than anywhere else.

Only in America is "doing things on their own" involve running a global empire to ensure their supply of oil. Without the federal government subsidizing rural people in America it would be physically impossible for them to live there, this is literally the opposite of being independent they are extremely dependent on massive globalized infrastructure.

9
Habahnowreply
sh.itjust.works

Not everyone wants the US to run a global empire and coincidentally, the people were talking about are more likely to want the US interfering less with their lives and outside the country.

1

Eh, wasn't too far off estimating that at 4 Raummeter: A cord is 3.62m^2^, close enough. In both cases you measure the total volume, including gaps, with quite some leeway in size of the pieces but they gotta be stacked or you get much less wood.

Common when buying firewood because it's delivered like that and space on the truck is ultimately more expensive than the gaps in the wood and caloric value differs, anyway, whereas wood for construction or furniture use is sold by solid square metre. Either measured or calculated from weight+humidity+some wood-specific constant. Lots of eyeballing in those measures but it all averages out in the end, you loose some you get some.

1
lemm.ee

I have trailers I use haul firewood and such. I burn about 3 quarts a year.

If that's for heating, ideally you'd be using a heat pump / reverse cycle AC as wood burning heaters are harmful to health due to PM2.5 particles and bad for the environment due to emissions. But I get that there is a bit of an upfront cost that may be dissuading you.

1

I have a cat similar to vehicle that super heats up. I barely produce any smoke or anything. It’s a device inside a wood Burning stove that doubles its temperature to burn anything left from the smoke.

1

I've already warmed up to the idea that we'd have to force positives changes through in the dead of night. With all things said and done, watch those who'd rail against it say they've always been in favor of it.

8

We don't just want "car-free cities" for the sake of it... We want walkable cities with infrastructure and proximity to needs/wants built with pedestrians in mind

7

Totalled my car three years ago. Never bothered buying a new one. I save a lot of money and accepting my faith when relying on public transport has given me so much mental freedom. I take the train to work and the last part of the route is by shared bikes. Love it.

7

Really good article. Someone was kind enough to post the contents in the comments since the article is paywalled- its worth the read :)

6
lemmy.world

To answer your question on why people are hesitant: they’re not worried about the cities per se, but about the mentality that will then turn its attention to the suburbs and rural areas. There are people who don’t want to live 10mins away from grocery stores because they don’t like grocery shops, or other crowdy places with people milling about. Some of us want to be hermits and live relatively secluded

All that said, I like car free cities. I don’t want denser suburbs tho

2
PowerCrazyreply
lemmy.ml

I don't want suburbs at all and public policy should make suburbs unaffordable.

6
niftyreply
lemmy.world

Why don’t you want suburbs? Or I guess, the question is why don’t you want other people to have them?

2
megopiereply
lemmy.blahaj.zone

Suburbs, are inherently higher carbon emitting that proper urban areas. For an extreme example, if everyone in the US lived in an area with similar characteristics to NYC, it would reduce the counties carbon emissions by 3/4.

Beyond that, they’re only really able to exist, as they do in the US, thanks to exploitative and predatory economic practices. Almost no one who lives there makes their money there, they work somewhere else, extracting value, and then bringing it back to the suburb to fund incredibly inefficient infrastructure.

I’m not saying ban them complete, I’m just saying, take away the massive amount of economic incentives and support that makes them possible. Build out housing in cities and ensure the value generated in them goes to funding their services, infrastructure and development of the cities.

Make the suburbs pay for them selves and they will nearly disappear very quickly.

5
niftyreply
lemmy.world

Beyond that, they’re only really able to exist, as they do in the US, thanks to exploitative and predatory economic practices. Almost no one who lives there makes their money there, they work somewhere else, extracting value, and then bringing it back to the suburb to fund incredibly inefficient infrastructure.

I don’t think this is true with remote work. Also, there are businesses nearby which operate on location—architectural firms, dance studios, lawyers, accountants etc. So I think painting suburbs as “predatory” or “absent of economic activity” is an inaccurate and incomplete description.

Regarding the carbon footprint: yes, that can be improved by more commuter rails to the suburbs, and improved energy efficiency in older houses. Encouraging people to grow native plants in green spaces will also help as opposed to “manicured lawn culture”.

I think you’re undervaluing how much people want to live outside of busy spaces, so there will always be some support for suburban living. From my pov, I am more in favor of the rustic, idyllic spaces as opposed to the overpaved, McMansion scenarios that maybe you’re describing?

0

If you are willing to pay $100/gallon of gasoline, pay for all the roads, pay for the carbon externalities of both the cars and the roads, and pay for the water infrastructure and basically live in a Galt's Gulch, then sure, you can do whatever you want. But that isn't the case today.

5

HOAs are part of an archaic culture now, at least where I live

City hermit is not my style, but I get what you’re describing. Population density and activity levels are the main issues

I feel like there’s nothing wrong with people having options of where to live depending on their style and personality 😁

1
lemmy.world

Meh, I've spent time in walkable cities. Months of renting small apartments in the EU on a work trip.I still prefer cars.

I didn't think you're going to convince these people.

-28
gruereply
lemmy.world

We don't have to convince them to give up their own cars; we just have to stop catering to them by providing so much subsidized road and parking space.

23
discuss.online

You can convince someone to not like cars in many ways, such as the inconvienece or waking up to slashed tires a few times per year

...especially the very, very expensive cars and SUVs

-2
IsThisAnAIreply
lemmy.world

Just don't be surprised when you get fucked up 🤷‍♂️

You think an insurance claim is going to change anything? Delusional stuff.

1
discuss.online

The purpose is the inconvenience. Its the same reason people block traffic. Our infrastructure should he designed to make car travel the least convient mode of transportation.

We should use many tactics to achieve this, both urban planning and direct action.

0

Lololol I LOVE dropping my Porsche off at the dealership. I get free food and take home a boxer convertible for the day.

You ain't doing shit other than putting yourself into danger and making someone think you're an asshole.

Go ahead tough guy one day you'll run into violence or a dash cam 🤣. I'll be sitting in my boxer rental.

0
lemmy.ml

Yeah you're right, who likes no pollution, no noise, strong communities and third places to bond with people, kids having public spaces to play in their neighborhoods, green, sustainability, healthy, active people that don't sit in front of a wheel all day long... Who likes all that seriously?

21
IsThisAnAIreply
lemmy.world

I get privacy, AC, and I get to go shopping once every two weeks instead of smaller trips every day, and I still live in a small neighborhood with a lovely park within walking distance.

I'm fucking crazy right?!!!!!

-9
Lokireply
feddit.de

Privacy... in a car.... in 2024...........

I was going to only comment that but seriously,

shopping once every two weeks instead of smaller trips every day

that just means you'll only have fresh produce for a week at most, any bread you buy will be unusable after 4 days and if something you need is not in stock you have to wait another two weeks.

4
IsThisAnAIreply
lemmy.world

We're GF. The vast majority of veggies are just fine for 2 weeks with little care. The only freshness issues we run into are potatoes and lettuce type greens. If we have to we always have the ability to make a second trip.

What is important to you may not be to others. I don't understand how the folks in here don't get this. You've already converted people who want to be converted. It's an uphill battle. You are sitting here trying to prove my preference is wrong. I've experienced both and make a choice to live semi rural and it suits every single one of my preferences.

-1
Gabureply
lemmy.ml

Your preferences are asinine to a sustainable society. Which part of that can you not understand?

4

Again, I've done more than you unless you've gotten mostly off the electric and gas grid as I have. As pointed out elsewhere I have done quite a bit to reduce my footprint. Good luck convincing the other folks with comments line that 🤣. Y'all just have resorted to personal attacks.

-1

What is important to you may not be to others.

Honestly, genuinely, being able to get fresh produce daily and good bread - gluten free or not (there's gluten free bread???) - and being able to be spontaneous and take a quick 5 minute walk to the store because I've unexpectedly run out of eggs in the middle of baking or whatever aren't things that are at all important to me, they are just facts of life. What's important to me is not being inconvenienced by people who think it's their god-given right to own a car and make it everyone's problem.

My issue here is that you're saying

I get to go shopping once every two weeks instead of smaller trips every day

like everyone should obviously agree that only going once every two weeks is the better experience and just stopping by on the way to or from work or in your lunch break is somehow an inferior experience.

You are sitting here trying to prove my preference is wrong.

I don't care about you, I care about other people possibly reading this and want to make sure - since they're interested in the conversation already - why we think living car-free is better. The top level comment on this chain is you stating your opinion that cars are better, with no explanation at all as to why. I know that people like you are a lost cause.

2
Gabureply
lemmy.ml

Yes, you are. Also a liar.

privacy

How is that important in a commute?

AC

Busses and trains also have AC. If you're walking or cycling, the wind will be more than enough to keep you cool.

I get to go shopping once every two weeks instead of smaller trips every day

You can do the same in walkable neighborhoods, only the sane thing to do is to buy less more often. As a bonus, you'll be healthier and your food will be fresher.

2

I use trains and carry a loaded gun with me everywhere. Public transports I carry a 44 magnum concealed.

0
IsThisAnAIreply
lemmy.world

Yes, you are. Also a liar.

Okay? I guess I'm a liar? What are you referencing if I might ask? I'm not sure where I'm lying here.

privacy

I didn't have to hear you. I don't have to touch you. I can blast tswift quite loudly and sing with my daughter as much as I want. I can also enjoy the quietness.

Busses and trains also have AC. If you're walking or cycling, the wind will be more than enough to keep you cool.

🙄👌👍 I love it when the zealots start telling me how much I sweat. It's giving insane deranged shit lol.

I get to go shopping once every two weeks instead of smaller trips every day

You can do the same in walkable neighborhoods, only the sane thing to do is to buy less more often. As a bonus, you'll be healthier and your food will be fresher.

You most certainly do not walk with a family sized trip. I fill a literal full size us grocery cart. Not a chance you are doing that walking without some insane system.

-3
Gabureply
lemmy.ml

You need to use ">" to quote someone.

🙄👌👍 I love it when the zealots start telling me how much I sweat. It’s giving insane deranged shit lol.

I suffer from severe hyperhidrosis, meaning I literally can't stop sweating and sweat way more than the average person at any given temperature. Public transportation does just fine for me.

You most certainly do not walk with a family sized trip. I fill a literal full size us grocery cart. Not a chance you are doing that walking without some insane system.

I literally do. Maybe all that sitting around in a car has caused your muscles to atrophy.

4

are you realising how petty and mean you've become in this comment section? is this the person you want to be? is this the person your daughter would be proud of calling her parent? exercise is proven to be good for mental health, maybe you should take a trip to that park you've mentioned and leave the internet be for the day.

0
Elmerfuddzreply
lemmy.world

Food is fresher….so you like making unnecessary trips all the time regardless of how you get there. I do grocery trips once every three weeks. I also go on tons of camping and back packing trips and walk tons of miles. In short your argument is you rely on being in a neighborhood. How about folks who who grew up in smaller areas and want to be near family whom live there? Want them to pack up and leave and live in a tiny apartment?

2
lemmy.ml

There's AC in public transport.

Your privacy is of no concern to us, like you could claim you want more privacy, which you can achieve by commuting with a jet(people can stare at you through the car window) - that doesn't mean the world has to cater to your unreasonable demands.

The fact that there is a park in your neighborhood doesn't mean anything, since the public spaces are simply not enough. We don't have more green instead of this sea of tar, because some people like you don't care about either the environment or the alienation of the communities or the health implications of car centric cities.

The opposite of one trip every two weeks isn't everyday, it's once a week on a bike, I'm sure you can make this sacrifice since...yk I specifically explained how our world and lives are ruined from car centric cities. And if you are not willing to make this insurmountable sacrifice, you are just a lost cause and an enemy to green walkable vibrant cities and therefore to us.

You are not fucking crazy, you are fucking toxic to comment in this place to begin with.

1
exanimereply
lemmy.today

It's awesome you didn't provide a single example about why you prefer unwalkable cities

15
IsThisAnAIreply
lemmy.world

I didn't find it easier. I didn't like summer commutes and being hot. I didn't like dealing with other people on public transportation. I prefer my 10 minute drive to my local store in AC with my music in my quite car.

3
Gabureply
lemmy.ml

In other words, you're antisocial and quite possibly narcisistic. Yeah, I don't think you're the kind of person cities should cater to.

1
IsThisAnAIreply
lemmy.world

Nope. I have a loving family, am married, have a kid who is in soccer, dance, etc. we have some other parent friends. Just had a nice DnD night and hit up the recent local adventures league.

I've also spent nearly 90k converting my roof to solar, buying a PHEV, installing a heat pump and fully offloading my net usage. I ripped up my grass put in clover, planted wildflower, and spend hundreds of hours and dollars beekeeping. You can fuck right off with your little narrow judgments. I've likely done more than you'll ever do to reduce my consumption. Outside of giving up a car.

You have invented an entire persona and story because I have stated how a large population feels about vehicles and living more rural. You have invented some evil character on a paragraph. It's insane and counterproductive.

1
Gabureply
lemmy.ml

If you enjoy rurality so much, simply fuck off to nowhere - emptyville. Why are you even taking part in a discussion about cities?

4

More suburban light, but yeah I did.

As for why I'm here, 🤷‍♂️ I thought this place was about conversation. I stated a common preference and prefer a small city and driving. You all lost your mind at the audacity of me expressing that option. Being .ml a ban is probably next 🤷‍♂️.

It's insane you are attacking me, someone who uses less resources than most of the people in US or EU, and you are screaming at me to fuck off because I have a preference for a vehicle. It's this insane all of nothing attitude that is 100% incompatible with democratic systems. Jesus Christ my man, you are screaming at a guy you 75% agree with.

2

If you order food Uber eats, take an Uber to get items. Also request fixing of your dwelling and access to get your groceries. You’re still just as depended. Work as an engineer for city electric company. 90% of thee comments about being car free. Yet people still use them to get them services.

1

Blah blah blah, I'll ignore this guy using less resources than me and pretend I'm not some ass arguing on the Internet.

-3

Nice response and showing your maturity. How about folks who grew up small town or rural and that’s what they know? How about people who grew up in small towns with not much access to updated structure? You’re being selfish and comparing someone who only stated they preferred smaller areas. You respond back claiming narcissism and anti-social. Stop being a raging dick about losing your ass on a conversation. Every response is you taking it personal like you’re “God” himself.

0