Car dealers say they can’t sell EVs, tell Biden to slow their rollout
https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/11/car-dealers-say-they-cant-sell-evs-tell-biden-to-slow-their-rollout/Open linkView original on lemmy.world556
Comments608https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/11/car-dealers-say-they-cant-sell-evs-tell-biden-to-slow-their-rollout/Open linkView original on lemmy.world
If they can't sell it, then they'll lower prices and people will be able to buy them.
I doubt the profits are so hard to come up with considering the wild CEO pay and record profits everyone's bragging about.
Yeah lol... Why curb supply to artificially keep prices high? Sounds like a antitrust issue.
We can keep producing mass amounts of EV’s; we’ll just store them all in caves in middle America.
It'll be like government cheese all over again!
I’ll take some of that government EV. Maybe fill it with government cheese too while they’re at it.
Just bought an EV from a local dealer. Went in on Saturday because they had a 2 month used listing on their website for about 10k under MSRP. They told me, oh no that sold, but please check out the new cars. I entertained them and told them they'd need to bring down the price 10k to get me to sign because it's simply out of my price range. They also mentioned these things (ioniq 6) are selling extremely quickly and they only have a few on the lot.
They insisted and played games for a week, with offers OVER msrp, so I let them waste their time. They pushed me to come in, so as I was about to sign, I told them, actually, no. I need an offer 10k under MSRP or I'm leaving. At this point that was a 15k cut. They've now wasted a week of negotiation and suddenly found the used one I originally requested, but it was at their off-site lot.
We drove over there, and it was a large 5 story parking deckcompletely filled to the top. They even had cars parked in front of cars. They tried one last game and made me wait for 3 hours to get it out.
All that is to say, let the fuckers bleed. If they can't afford Christmas, maybe they need to learn what the fuck capitalism really means. If they can't afford new years, it's time to make a new resolution and if they can't afford spring break, it's time to find a new job.
That's straight up bait-and-switch! Good on you to hold them to the original advertisement.
Eventually, they'll move inventory to other dealerships (and the scrapheap), fire-sale the rest, cover their losses, and make room for new models. Dealers are amazing at colossal inventory stunts like this.
I've been eyeing an Ioniq 5 for about 18 months now and just checked local pricing again and they haven't budged an inch on pricing (even now with 2024 models being sold with 2023 models left on the lot) nor are they even carrying inventory outside of the most expensive trim packages of Limited AWD. I'm interested in range, so I'm wanting a Limited RWD but they aren't being stocked.
This article screams "I'm not doing my job and it's all your fault!"
There's a 2008 style crash coming in the credit market for cars. There's a lot of subprime loans and a lot of car companies that got into financing that shouldn't have. Wait til they really get squeezed. Who am I kidding tho, they will just ask for a bail out.
Some of us are still miffed about the 2008 bailouts, which ran entirely counter to the market forces rhetoric. Then the police turned off all the cameras and ran OWS off with riot squads.
No resolution was offered. even Dodd-Frank was reversed by Trump.
So you can expect a lot of civil unrest. It's been due since the great depression, about a century ago.
Wrong! They will let it crash a bit and everyone will panic and see that shit is about to get real. The government will offer to defer the pain by bailing out the very rich and get things moving again, it’s the only way the government at the time will be able to hold onto power. People are fucking idiots so they’ll do nothing because they don’t like being uncomfortable for a short time even if it means they are getting slowly buttraped over the medium to long term
When beater 20 year old trucks can't even be found for <$10k, you know somethings gotta give
And the best part is you who foresaw it and tried to warn everyone, will have to pay personally towards the bailout
The dealer near me has added an extra 5 grand for market adjustment too.
Yeah, dealers around here have a huge markup over MSRP, “because there’s so much demand.”
Okay, I can wait.
Meanwhile, up here in Canada I put a down payment on an IONIQ 5 Ultimate Edition (Canadian equivalent of the US ‘Limited’ model) back in early April 2022, and it still hasn’t been ordered, because Hyundai decided to flood the US market while stiffing the Canadian market.
Hyundai (and other EV makers) are fucking around, and then blaming the market.
Yep sounds similar to what's happening here. Since the car was first released you could spec one out with Limited RWD on Hyundai's site but none existed in the entire country up until the last few months when they began trickling out. The website tells you that you can't actually order or build the car you want and instead must visit a dealer and choose something among their inventory. I'm sorry but I'm not going to compromise on a major purchase like this for a brand new vehicle. Dealerships can eat a dick.
While I still think that Hyundai engineering and design did some real magic with the IONIQ 5, I just can’t help but feel like the rest of the company is just screwing the pooch on this car. They’ve flooded the US market with models people there don’t seem to want to buy, and dealership lots often have a dozen or more waiting to be sold.
Meanwhile, here in Canada buying one is damn near impossible. That doesn’t seem to stop them from sending out mass marketing materials and ads trying to sell them (or the IONIQ 6), mind you — I just wish they had focussed first on ensuring their biggest boosters globally were getting the cars they want, as opposed to putting lots of cars nobody seems to want on US dealership lots.
(FWIW, my dealership told me they weren’t being allowed by Hyundai to order any 2023 IONIQ 5s. This seems to be a fairly common occurrence across all dealerships here in Canada, with just a few cars trickling in each month).
Jfc. I have a feeling this is going to become a much more common tale with high tech or precision manufactured goods, goods just being diverted from western markets to Group of Friends and Axis of Evil countries. Hopefully America doesn't go full isolationist and we continue to seek global trade such as the trans pac trade agreement and similar trade agreements, keep the dollar nice and strong.
Issue is the dealership deals made with the auto manufacturers. Inventory on hand is often times (not including some of that bs that had dealerships marking stuff way over msrp) only set up to make the dealership a few thousand in profits.
For any major price reductions that are really needed, the auto manufacturers would have to be giving the vehicles to the dealerships for less money.
In other words, ford will have to drop prices for dealerships to drop prices.
This is bananas to me. The new model is out but last year's model isn't discounted? No wonder nobody likes dar dealers.
Saw one dealer do that to a Honda civic r then brag they got someone to actually pay it
That's why they do it - they only work a fraction of the amount for the same profit by gouging the everliving fuck out of a small number of people.
Are you sure it wasn't a Thundercougarfalconbird?
One word: thundercougerfalconbird
Shit dealers (and especially the sales people) tend to not at all be trained on how to sell these cars, and can be openly hostile towards people interested in them. EVs don't make them as much money on service.
They can be trained all day every day, but if they know their profits are lower they'll do anything they can to avoid having to work with EVs.
Yup something I keep getting into arguments about at work. Sales makes a mistake on their order. And I somehow as the tech end up sorting it. And that sales person keeps their entire sales commission. I’ve been telling mgmt forever take away the commission if there are reasonable timeframe issues or incorrect selections made by the sales agent. That will make them make sure they perfect it to get their pay.
Edit: I’d like to note I’m not even asking for the commission idc I just want sales to do shit properly. Lol
Took us forever and is still contested now and again, but we managed to force the sales process yo include product managers or owners. Without an estimate from them, which is created in coordination with the engineers and developers, no offer is being made anymore. Certain sales people are butthurt, because the estimated costs are often too high for our "price sensitive clients" as in: they don't know how to sell our products on added value rather than on lower cost.
New car sales people do not give a single fuck about whether the car comes back for service. They get paid for selling cars, full stop. It's possible that management is making ICE car sales commissions higher than EV; that would create an incentive to push ICE.
Commissions on EV sales for legacy automakers are dismal. None of the legacy automakers are making EVs at scale so they are losing 10s of thousands of dollars per EV they sell. Sales personnel aren’t moving them because they have no incentive to do so. Then these companies complain about how there is no demand while the EV sector is growing exponentially.
Tesla got to scale while legacy automakers were all laughing at them and now they have to compete by gaslighting the marketplace about how there is no demand.
I’ve been in an EV since 2020 and am never going back. When people start to wake up to how convenient and comfortable EVs are and stop buying into all of the negative media, it’s only going to snowball from there.
Are you able to take it for road trips, or do you primarily use it locally?
Not OP, but middle America resident here. Family vacationed in my Bolt EUV 2023 to Florida and had to plan activities at most of my charge stops because of how slow it DC fast charges (50kw). Mostly meals, but locating museums and other stuff wasn't to hard. CCS network is not good, but it's good enough with the right planning. Yeah road trips aren't ideal in the Bolt, but since Ford didn't make but 15 base model F-150 Lightnings and I wasn't paying $30,000 over MSRP for 1 of 3 trucks in stock East of the Mississippi, I bought the Bolt instead planning to put my daughter in it when she's ready to drive. I would've preferred utility and faster DC charging, but had to make do with what was available. Road tripping in a Tesla would be much easier and quicker.
Before you ask, no you can't buy the base model Lightning direct from Ford. You can all other trims though.
I drove it about 60-80 miles a day on a Houston commute for about 2 years. Now I took it on the road and am trying out the digital nomad lifestyle. Just drove 1000miles in 2 days, from sea level to 10,000ft. I haven’t had a problem finding chargers or with anything else.
If you’re road-tripping, there are apps to plan the optimal route based on whether you want to arrive in the shortest time or don’t mind stopping for a while longer at parks, restaurants, or shopping places. I generally drive about 2 1/2-3 hrs, then stop for a half hour or so, give or take 10 minutes if I’m in a rush or want to stop for lunch or something. When im in a hotel, I just search for hotels that have EV chargers and charge overnighit… those are usually free. When I’m in a new area renting a place, I haven’t had an issue finding a plug to slow charge or a grocery store or something that has a fast charger.
I guess to answer your question, I primarily take it on road trips, but use it locally in the destinations I land in.
I guess my concern was charging time. Granted, I haven't really done any research, but I had it in my head that it would take a long time to charge (slow charging?). Overnight would be fine, but I was picturing driving for a few hours, and then charging for a few hours, over and over again.
Yeah. A lot of people don’t have first hand experience and there is a lot of misinformation out there.
It does take about an hour to charge if you go from empty to full, but it charges slower as you get closer to 100%. That’s why they say it takes about half an hour to get an 80% charge.
I usually try to plan my routes where I charge after getting under 10% and only save my longer charges for places that have some kind of point of interest, like a park, or a meal break. The apps strategize all of that stuff and make the route, you just have the option of optimizing if you want to adjust the route.
It does seem to break up a drive a bit nicer and leave you with more energy when you hit your destination, but would be more irritating if I was under a time crunch and didn’t plan the time accordingly.
They'll also fail to mention that it's the fastest growing new car segment. They may not me moving as many as they want, but they're definitely moving.
I don't know how it is in the us but here in Germany many (single-brand-)dealers are also licensed mechanics (for that brand) - and since EVs are taking much less repairing than traditional cars they are basically shooting themselves in the foot by selling them
Yeah, smthg smthg capitalism, smthg smthg free market, amirite?
Don’t forget “too big to fail.”
Hi you pulled your car in, nothing is actually wrong with it but we looked at it from a distance and you need new air filters. That will be $375. I can make you a good price, I got it down to $373 because you’re a good money bag, I mean client.
Oh no! But won't someone think about what the rent-seekers need? They worked hard for years to capture government regulation allowing them to be not only middle-men, but the only middle men allowed! How can they be expected to turn around and do what the government asks? This is a travesty!
I have hated every single car dealer I have dealt with, even my high school friend, but somehow my Nissan dealer was such a nice guy. He never found anything extra and always gave the straight forward solution, I only worked with him maybe 4 times for the 5 years I owned the car, but my bill was always <$100.
With 30% markups? No, you cannot.
Car Dealers: But what about my cut for bringing absolutely nothing to the table except being a con-man??
EVs require much less maintenance...dealers make much of their money from... maintenance! So they mark up the sale price to compensate for their lost revenue.
The solution is selling cars without dealerships, but our helpful state legislatures have made that illegal in many states.
And you need a safe place to charge it. Like a garage. I can't afford a house so why would I buy a Nissan leaf (any cheap ev)? I can't just run an extention cord out an open window. I also can't just leave a wireless ground pad charger plugged in unattended outside. It's all linked, nothing happens in a bubble.
I don’t know about other chargers but my Tesla charger is designed for outside use and can be configured to only allow my car to charge
The J1772 protocol is very basic and does not communicate any car identifier back to the charge unit, so it wouldn't know what it's plugged into (other than "something")
And you just....trust other tenants to not just walk off with it?
I'm not worried about that, but I've seen some more cautious people get the cable underneath one of their wheels so that you'd have to move the car to take it. I'm quite sure you could also find another way of attaching or securing it to your car to make it fairly difficult to walk away with. The chargers also aren't really worth much, so it seems unlikely that even someone desperate for cash would put much effort into it.
It helps to have your own home, and my area doesn’t have much vandalism
My charger is not detachable and is not especially valuable in itself, so I think of it more as vandalism than theft. Someone might vandalize my charger for the metal in the cable, I guess, but I also have an air conditioner compressor outside that I’d expect to be more valuable, if harder to walk away with. As a property owner, there’s always something that could be vandalized or stolen, but you need to balance your costs and convenience with what you expect from your neighbors
That's a problem that is pretty easily solved. It can all be solidly affixed to the wall, locked to the vehicle, etc.
Yeah, I do wonder about the wisdom of locking it to the vehicle. I wonder if it would really deter anyone or if it just means my car is also vandalized for the scrap metal in the cable
R u so paranoid that u think people are gonna steal it? I mean it might happen but I live in quite a rough place and I wouldnt even be worried abt that
Some people will steal anything they think they can sell for a couple bucks -- particularly addicts. Some people just suck and will think the owner deserves to have it stolen for not securing it.
You're banking on not a single one of those people seeing it and taking it. It's not hard to sell it for cheap to someone who'll list it on ebay.
I've had people attempt to Rob me in my own home, had bricks thrown in my window for literally no reason and had attepted night burglaries. Basically, I live in a rough area and I'd genuinely be suprised if someone stole an electric car charger. I've left much more valuable things outside by accident without them being stolen.
This is exactly what my neighbor does in his apartment.
But he has a driveway, so it's not like he's running it over the sidewalk or anything.
I don't think this is what you meant, but you can charge an EV using a conventional wall outlet.They even have adapters that will allow you to plug it into a 240v outlet (like for a dryer or oven). I'm not saying this makes them more accessible, I still think the upfront cost of owning an EV is too high, but it is possible.,
With decent range, you can charge once or twice a week at a fast charger (while doing groceries or posting video games) or there are public chargers every couple of blocks. No need for a home charger (though it's definitely more convenient).
You've never left the city, have you?
When you leave the city, you have your own driveway with your own charger
Your worldview is so narrow I don't think you could thread a piece of fishing line through it.
Other wires come in and out of your house. It's not hard to drill a hole and insulate it.
The person you replied to said they cannot afford a house.
That means they do not own the building in which they live. In most apartment situations, it’s impossible to make infrastructure changes to the building.
Even if a person owns their home, they aren’t just “making a hole” and insulating it. Most home owners don’t know what’s in their walls, how to tell if a wall is safe to drill into, and even fewer know how to properly seal up those holes so they don’t wind up with water ingress when the cheap caulk they slathered on gets ruined by temperatures, the sun, or pests.
Much less that it’s also not merely ‘a cord’ unless you’re fine with being handicapped by slow charging. Installing faster chargers is beyond the scope of most home tinkerers - so that’s even more cost to set up.
Why can't you run an extension cord out an open window? Do u not have windows or something
What if they live on the third floor of an apartment or have to park a block away? It's not one size fits all.
Ask someone who lives closer and pay the extra it's what I'd do
Maybe roll out some models people can afford? It's all SUVs that start around $45k, but they built only a few of those base models. The ones actually available are premium trims that go for $65k and might peak around $100k. They were able to sell out for 6 months, and then that market was saturated. Now they stand around asking why nobody buys their cars.
Well, maybe if the price of cars wasn't so fucking high, they'd be able to sell more of them. But nope, corps gotta get those record profits in, while underpaying every single [non-executive] worker.
Seems telling that they stated they're having 100-200% employee turnover. Those are insane numbers.
But are they "we're going to run out of workers" bad?
Eventually they will have no choice but to stop existing or cede worker demands
I don’t see any problem with removig car dealers. Just phase out of existence no one will miss them.
Give me a solid car with an electric motor, but all old-school buttons and knobs in the cabin instead of a touchscreen that will be out of date in 5 years and cost 10k to replace if the kids get their grimy hands on it.
My ideal electric car is basically an 85 GTI with an electric motor, but they’re all SUVs
Yeah, I'm disappointed that the evs that are actually so simple are micro cars with an in-town-only top speed and they're only available in Europe.
Closest thing in the US is a Nissan Leaf with a battery upgrade.
And let me rent an extra battery pack for long trips. I only need 40 miles day-to-day, but I gotta go 300 for Christmas.
PHEV is the answer! Give us options, doesn't have to be one of the other; Chevy Volt had it for a bit, but it must not have been profitable because now I can't find a PHEV that gets more than 30 miles on a full charge!
I don't want to buy the oversized battery, and I don't really want to buy the on-board generator/charger of PHEV. I only want to own as much vehicle, and incur the manufacturing carbon debt, to meet 95-98% of my needs. Make it easy to rent, borrow, or share the extra capacity for the last 2%, and the world will be a lot less wasteful. I can see renting a trailer with enough generator to replace a series hybrid. I can see renting surplus battery. And those rental services can be a revenue stream to replace dealerships lost service centers.
Clearly, though, I'm a minority of consumers, and no manufacturer actually wants to cater to me and my twelve friends.
Your use case is very reasonable, and a lot of people want it. But it's a big challenge from a technical/engineering standpoint. You know how a replacement battery pack for an EV costs like $8k and has a range of 300 miles? Your rental battery would cost at least that much, plus whatever costs are involved to make it portable, and integrate it's usage into your existing EV. Then the rental places would need to have massive charging capabilities for when people stop in to swap their empty rental battery for a full one, since it still only has a range of 300 miles (4-5 hours of freeway driving)
I actually think there will be improvements on the fast charging front. You can already see this idea in other places. Many heavy duty trucks have 2 fuel tanks. You can fill them with 2 standard pumps running simultaneously, effectively giving you double the refueling speed. Some phones have dual batteries for the same reason.
The honest answer for right now, which will likely cause an emotional response, is to just rent a different car for these rare needs. Or plan around chargers en route, which will likely be a frustrating experience.
The savings you'll get day-to-day will more than cover your rental fees.
You're right. I got my current (smallish) car with the explanation that I could just rent a truck when I want to haul hobby materials, but the practical inconvenience of that rental has meant that I just don't, and consequently haven't done any big hobby projects in years. When I imagine renting an EV booster battery, I imagine it being easy, convenient, and reasonably priced, unlike literally everything else in the automotive market.
And there is different emotional content in using your own vehicle vs any alternative.
You know there are absolutely zero controls on privacy for Tesla telemetry data. It’s wild to me that a car that is really quite a bit simpler than an ICE car is required to be perpetually online. That said, I saw there’s a company trying to offer electric retrofits for ICE vehicles, primarily classic cars, but that’s likely to be closest to what you want.
You got a link or company name? That sounds very interesting for classic cars.
Zero Labs. They’ve got a few models for sale but are really looking to raise capital.
https://www.zerolabs.com/
Looks like they're only doing it to huge cars like Land Rovers and Ford Broncos, which is unfortunate.
Well it would be wild if it was true. Car drives just fine without an internet connection.
Another wild claim, what is it based on I wonder?
This made the rounds recently. Tesla is bad (just like all car companies), but not quite that bad. They do have stated controls.
https://foundation.mozilla.org/en/privacynotincluded/articles/its-official-cars-are-the-worst-product-category-we-have-ever-reviewed-for-privacy/
I was expressing personal opinion, which is influenced by some known facts. Tesla employees shared videos recorded from cars on their company instant messaging system, which suggests lax controls (lawsuit too). They even passed around images of Elon Musk’s garage.
https://www.reuters.com/technology/tesla-workers-shared-sensitive-images-recorded-by-customer-cars-2023-04-06/
Elon Musk also personally canceled the Model X order of a buyer who criticized him. That level of pettiness suggests contempt for Tesla buyers and owners. Is the personal data for an active Tesla owner who criticizes him off-limits?
https://www.cnbc.com/2016/02/03/elon-musk-personally-cancels-rude-customers-tesla-order.html
Disgruntled ex employes say a lot of stuff. No proof though ;)
Also Elon bad, yeah no shit all people with that level of money are generally assholes. But a company should be able to chose who it does business with no?
I just had my screen replaced because the L in LCD started oozing all over. It was $2200 which didn't include the radio that cost an extra $500. So, not 10k, but not cheap either. On the plus side, outside of New tires, that's the only thing I've done to the car in 8 years.
How about people pay attention to local elections? The reason we are not seeing funding for EV infrastructure is most small towns can be bought by the local dealership family who would rather see continued profits from ICE vehicle maintenance and not investments into EV infrastructure, then it conviently sides with this bullshit narrative of nothing can be sold and we have no infrastructure so give up on EVs.
Henry Ford designed the Model T to be a bare-bones vehicle affordable for the everyday person. Volkswagon designed the Beetle to be a bare-bones vehicle affordable for the everyday person.
The first car company to design an EV that's a bare-bones vehicle affordable for the everyday person will sell lots of them. Profit per car may be lower but perhaps we need to set the need for maximum profits aside on this particular issue?
My raises aren't even CLOSE to keeping up with inflation. Rather hard to splurge on a fancy EV with tons of high-tech nice-to-have features that are just going to break anyway. All I need to do is to get from point A to point B and have AC, heat and a half-decent stereo system.
Bullshit. These dealers don't want to sell EVs because they can't bait you into a sales pitch 4 times a year with free oil changes.
Car dealers are just a legal & institutionalized cartel.
Maybe it’s because cars suck now: filled with spyware, massively complex systems that aren’t better at doing car things than similar systems in the 90s, and with a price tag that considers this garbage as worth something to the consumer.
I sincerely wish that were the case. The proliferation of Ring doorbells, Alexa speakers, and overall lack of tech literacy really hampers any signs of general outcry. Our collective screech barely registers as a whimper in the grand scheme.
I mean that’s my disappointment with the new Tacoma that’s coming out soon. It’s great that they have a hybrid now, but it’s full of electronic crap now that used to be mostly isolated to certain components.
Now the entire gauge cluster is a screen, it’s sad.
I was legitimately going to buy a brand new one in the next year or two when I’m back in the US, and I’ve never bought a new car. now I guess I have to get a 2023 model or earlier. I bet any of the 2016-2023 generation lasts longer than the 2023-2030ish generation.
Honestly I don’t even like trucks but the biggest pull for me was that the Tacoma was still pretty old school for a new vehicle, and that it could go anywhere kinda rough.
This is a really interesting take to me because I’m excited for all the physical displays to be replaced by screens. Because once they’re screens, the new CarPlay can take them over and give an actually good user experience compared the incredible dog shit quality in-car experience that the manufacturers provide.
I wanted to like the Tacoma but I owned a Corolla and it’s the same size inside. Not like in a “this is a truck” way either I mean the cabin is like a compact car. Seating position is just awful. I’m tall but this isn’t a tall thing even.
Thing about the Corolla is it had 41” legroom in front at least. More backseat room too.
There was another thread here on Lemmy where I talked about how my parents installed a wired intercom in our house so they wouldn't have to yell at me when they wanted something and someone replied that they just use Alexa to do that and I wanted to hit my forehead on my keyboard.
The same thing happens in ICE vehicles. The issue here is that they marked them up an insane amount, refuse to learn about them, and actively discourage people from buying them.
Spoiler alert: cars have always sucked.
Inefficient drain of public and private money. Demand better public transportation.
Fascinating, have they tried sucking less?
If they can’t sell them then let companies sell without a dealership! Sorry your scammy business isn’t working anymore either clean your nose or get out
When GM killed the Bolt, I tried to buy one at two different dealerships near me. One wanted a $10k premium over MSRP and the other wanted $8k.
They also both had a non-negotiable "security" etching added and wheel protection whatever that I had to pay for.
It isn't that I didn't want one, it's that your dealerships fucked it up.
Honestly, may have settled for MSRP, but they wouldn't budge. Fuck off.
The infrastructure isn't there. I live in an apartment (and likely will for the foreseeable future), and there are no chargers here.
The option of a (practical) electric car does not exist for a sizeable portion of the country. The fact that they're really expensive is actually secondary considering they're just a non-starter without the infrastructure.
Even worse, my former apartment complex had EV chargers that you paid for at 8x the rate of electricity making it more expensive than gas. There were no other options to charge your car. But when I locked in my lease all they advertised was that they had EV chargers. Not the credit card required or price.
I think this is ignoring the fact that the average americans daily milage is so little (around 30 miles)that an electric car can be topped up off a Level 1 charger. Even more if you can get a level 2 charger.
So for most americans average driving, an electric car would be a boon, even if no independent in the wild infrastructure/charging facilities existed.
OK, but if you live in an apartment, where do you plug in that level 1 charger?
I would love to consider getting an electric car whenever I can afford a new(er) vehicle. But there's no way my landlord will let me run an extension cord from my 3rd story apartment around the building and around the pond between my building and the parking lot. It's sad that an EV would be so great, but its really a mark of privilege to own both in initial affordability and just having the place to park and charge one. Not that it matters, I can't afford anything other than my 24 year old Honda.
an extension cord.
This is just not a practical day-to-day solution. Most people don't have a parking spot right outside their window that they can reliably use for charging. There is often a sidewalk that the cord would have to cross, creating the opportunity for someone to trip and sue you. There is often landscaping between buildings and parking, creating the opportunity for the landscapers to accidentally run over your cord with their lawnmower. Some asshole is going to walk by and unplug your car and then you may be late to work.
Sure, you could it, but it's not a practical solution.
I mean, sure, when you dont want to do it, its easy to really cook up a convuluted scenario to justify not doing it.
I'm going to borrow a picture that somebody else posted. https://www.rent.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/apartment_building.jpg
Do you think its practical for extension cords to run from that building to most of the parking spots? It would be a spiderweb of a tangled mess.
Oh god, the horror of 6 cords. You're right, the world cant support such madness.
if you don't like EVs, thats fine. Don't gotta keep playing this game of "UNLESS ITS 1000% PERFECT, WE CANT HAVE IT".
I'm going to borrow a picture that somebody else posted. https://www.rent.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/apartment_building.jpg
Do you think its practical for extension cords to run from that building to most of the parking spots? It would be a spiderweb of a tangled mess.
Level 1 charging works off of a regular power outlet
And if you only have street parking?
Is there a power outlet in the street? If not, it would be hard to use level 1 charging and wouldn’t really be relevant to bring up, would it?
Let me summarize the stream of these comments for you, as if it was a conversation between two people.
A)There isn't infrastructure for electric cars, particularly for those living in an apartment.
B)Level 1 charging is good enough for most people.
A)How is a person who lives in an apartment going to use a level 1 charger?
B)You just use a regular outlet.
A)But I live in an apartment, there is no regular outlet near my car.
B)(this is your comment BTW)Well then why did you bring up level 1 charging?
You're a moron.
It's kind of disturbing that they can't follow this.
Some apartments have outlets in them, this is a simple solution for those people. Not every solution will solve every problem for every person. Only a moron would expect that.
Do they make wireless extension cords?
TBH if your daily mileage is only 30 or so miles, then you can do all of that on an electric bike.
Electric bikes suck in the Wisconsin winter
I hear that biking in the snow isn't actually bad. This is hearsay because it doesn't snow much where I am.
You wear your winter coat and snow pants, and get studded tires.
You don't have to worry about getting stuck going up an icy hill (because if its too icy to drive up, you can walk up it), granted not likely to be a problem in Wisconsin.
You don't have to worry about getting stuck due to low clearance (like the snow between the ruts that hatchbacks and minivans get stuck on) because you can just pick up your bike.
Also if a pedestrian slips while crossing the road, you probably won't kill them if you can't stop in time.
I guess the wind could be intense. What's your experience been?
Consider doing any of this in -20F even without the wind chill. Now consider the battery on that bike in those temps.
I've had it be so cold outside that the door lock latch on my entryway door for my garage was growing ice crystals. This isn't a door that's on the outside. This is the door on the entry from the garage to the house.
Now imagine trying to bike anywhere with that and what is essentially a salt/beet sugar slurry in the roads with no one giving you right of way it even being able to see in front of them because they're either drunk, on the phone, only cleared a 3" hole in their windshield or "you just came out of nowhere" ;)
But hey, the summers here are kickass
Hey thanks for more context I appreciate it.
-20F (-30C) is quite cold. How often is it that cold during commuting hours? It's hard to read too much into anecdotes re house latches freezing because there are so many peculiarities of individual houses. Range will definitely be reduced though.
I could see the ice melt slurry being messy and gumming up the bike's mechanics for sure. Not something I have experience with.
Yeah separate infrastructure makes biking a lot safer and so more attractive.
It's actually not as bad on average as I conveyed
https://weatherspark.com/countries/US/WI
I think a lot of it is wind chills, especially where I am since Madison, WI sits between two lakes.
It might be better on a regular fat tire bike and not EV here, though in the last few years EV has become insanely popular around here.
You should be able to, but US non-car infrastructure is so abysmal that there's a strong chance you can't safely unfortunately
I currently bike or walk most places, but I also know that's not a common situation in the US. For me the car is only used for anything far enough away.
Ignoring how that would work even under ideal circumstances, do you propose that large portions of the country use a bike when it's below freezing? Because that's a non-starter, and no one will take you seriously.
I replaced 90% of my driving with an electric golf cart
And you think this was an accident? Car companies have been stalling every charging station they can. This is why Tesla went on their own.
Oh I don't doubt there is a lot of dirty pool involved. Tesla's hands are nowhere near clean either. But it doesn't change the fact that, at the end of the day, shit's not anywhere near ready.
This is why I have a hybrid and not an EV.
This isn't an unsolvable problem though given demand.
Assuming you're in an appartment with dedicated parking, it's not crazy difficult or expensive to install some lvl 2 chargers, the real blocker here is demand, if residents aren't demanding it the building isn't going to supply it.
If you're stuck with street parking, you're right, your use case isn't best suited for EVs right now. But this case also isn't a huge portion of vehicle owners, so it doesn't seem like justification to stop rollout.
Ignorant on the levels, but I thought I read it WAS crazy to install all that infrastructure. Gas stations apparently struggle to get it done.
Maybe I read about the next level
Level 3 fast chargers (the kind you would want at a gas station) are legitimately difficult to arrange infrastructure for in some areas. Multiple 200+ kW loads are not something that many properties are wired for. It's an enormous investment.
Level 2 chargers are basically trivial to install in comparison and can be supported just about anywhere with two phase service. They're much slower than level 3 chargers, but are a great option for any place that people stop with the intent to stay for an hour or more. Workplaces, restaurants, shopping malls, etc.
Ty for education
I'd be curious to see real stats about how many folks in the US have a car and any practical access to a charger, even if somehow we convinced landlords everywhere to install chargers or the govt footed that bill entirely. I suspect it isn't the minority you think given the current housing situation in the country.
Even so, we seem agreed that a massive infrastructure improvement would be needed to make this at all practical. It looks a lot like pie in the sky to me.
Of course the elephant in the room is that the battery technology is the more overarching issue. I don't need a gas station in my parking lot because it takes me about 3 minutes to fill the car with gas. If it took 3 minutes to charge an electric car, they would be closer to parity. Currently they are far, far away.
Is it possible to get around some of that issue by changing tactics / planning ahead for longer trips and trying to secure a full charge by then? Possibly, but not practically. I'd also argue that technologies that ask people to change established behavior without benefit tend to fail (and there is no direct benefit to the consumer with an electric car).
I'm not sure I agree there is a massive infrastructure need. The average American could keep their EV charged today with a standard 120v outlet.
I don't have numbers for how any car owners park their car overnight somewhere that has access to a 120v plug, but it would surprise me if it was less than 50%.
Batteries are fine today and I lay getting better, fast charging is nice to have, but definitely not needed.
65.8% of Americans own their house. EV sales rates aren't anywhere near that. Lack of being able to charge at home is not the primary issue.
I'd be curious to see how many apartment dwellers are buying brand new vehicles as well. I suspect it's at a rate lower than home owners.
While your larger point is valid, it's missing some important context. I haven't seen the data, but I suspect that it says 65% own (vs renting) their primary residence, not that 65% own a single family house suitable for home charging. This figure would include houses with street parking only, off-street parking unsuitable for charging (e.g. carport, or a detached garage without electricity), and critically, condos. Condos often have the exact same restrictions as apartments, even if you own the living space. In the opposite direction, it doesn't count the rented homes where you could charge.
Now, all of that being said, you are correct that it's not the only (or perhaps even the biggest) obstacle to moving entirely to EVs. Countless gas vehicles are sold daily to people that could absolutely charge at home. But it does freeze out a large market segment, whom I suspect are more interested in EVs in the first place.
You don't need to have chargers on site. You just need charging locations that are fast enough. Teslas already charge from empty to almost full in about 15 mins.
It's 0 to 200 miles in 15 minutes in ideal conditions. Really good, but no reason to set unreasonable expectations.
In my experience, it's closer to 45 minutes to go from 15-20% to 90% in my Model 3. The supercharger's fastest charge is when the battery is less than half full. After that, it slows down to protect the life of the battery pack. If all you need is enough charge to get home to your own charger, it's entirely possible that you can be in and out in 10-15 minutes.
I loved my Volt... Charged overnight in a normal 110 outlet got me the 43 miles to work and back (after about year 5, not quite the whole way) but I could still decide to go on a 600 mile road trip spur of the moment. Had to give up the 2014 in 2023 when a full charge wouldn't go 20 miles. ☹️
There is no PHEV comparable now, though! Made the switch back to full ICE and I hate it.
I have a 2017 bolt EV - bought used, not one that is advertised as having great mileage even in 2017. I routinely take it 400-500mi plus drives with one or maybe two charge stops for vacation and family trips. Middle of ME to the southern tip of NJ. My home is somewhere in the middle.
Charged off my 110 outlet since I got to car (about 4 years) up to last month Oct 2023 when I got a 220v outlet installed as part of another project. One charge was enough for the week. Occasionally I'd plug in at work or at a friends. Worst case actually pay $5-9 for a DC quick charge if I know I'm doing a long drive. All that is way easier if you just have a place to plug in consistently at home.
I don't get the negativity most people have twords EVs. Everyone is astounded when I say I just plug it into the wall and have to plan longer trips slightly more, like that's not news anymore.
And there's a bunch more DC chargers than when I first started driving an EV - so it's wayyy easier for new folks to adopt.
It sounds like you could've taken that car back for a warranty claim.... depending on your state it should be able to do about 30 miles after either 8 or 15 years, and your was doing less than 20 at 9 years... I assume you were in an eight year state?
Having said that, draining the battery fully every day will absolutely kill it. It's not good for the battery to be empty that often... an EV with a 300 mile range and the same driving pattern could probably go well over a million miles on the original battery. That's far longer than the typical life of a modern ICE engine (unless its an engine specifically intended for commercial fleets - those last longer).
Of course, a battery that can do 300 miles is very expensive.
This is the real reason I think high mileage batteries are important... I think most people don't need 300 miles, but a battery that can do that can also be charged to 60% or 80% and charged before going below 20%, which should dramatically improve its life (saving the full capacity for the once in a while longer trips)
Tesla recommends (I think it's the default?) limiting charging to 80% and when they drain as low as 20% they shut down to protect the battery. You'll need to call a tow truck unless there's a major emergency/evacuation, then they take advantage of the car's cellular connection to unlock the last 20% and allow drivers to use the whole battery.
I don't think the Volt did that. Maybe newer (and more expensive...) GM EVs do though.
Haha what? No that is some serious misinformation. A Tesla might go into a slumber mode when parked for a while, this only means it takes a few seconds to start instead of the instant response if you parked for a short while. , but it will not shut down until sometime AFTER reaching 0%.
Also, there are now two types of batteries for Tesla cars.
The Tesla Model 3 RWD’s battery pack uses the LFP chemistry which Tesla recommends charging to 100% at least once per week. Tesla recommends setting the charge limit to 100% for daily use.
The Tesla Model 3 Long Range and Performance variants uses a different chemistry referred to as NMC. The Tesla Model Y owner's manual recommends setting the charge limit to 90% for daily use. This will minimise degradation and preserve the longevity of the battery.
https://zecar.com/resources/tesla-model-3-charging-guide
The Prius Prime isn't too different, in that it's also a compact PHEV although the battery range is a bit shorter.
Hyundai Ioniq PHEV is I would say even better.
That's the problem. They're basically totaled once the battery is worn out.
Well Ive not quite made it to 100000mi on the odometer. It's likely I'll be able to take it to 200000 with the same sort of range I have now... So that's about 10-12 years of life for me without a worry. Maybe it goes more, maybe I get in an accident before 2029 (10years of use and I'll be around 150000mi or less).
Ive heard people are scared of the batteries. But that fear doesn't match what I've experienced. I had a recall on mine that was not big deal. it's really not as concerning as it's made out to be. I'm mostly hoping there's a better recycling system in place when I do actually need a new battery, just show I know the old one is taken care of properly. But likely the rest of the car will wear out first.
Ps I don't drive much during the week, longer weekend drives, and then long drives a few times a year.
I've read that used EV batteries that aren't good for their original purpose anymore can be used for solar storage, so, not recycling but reusing.
I mean... Same with a gas engine for most cars. And the batteries are expected to last about as long as a gas engine.
You can replace parts on a gas engine. There's a lot more repairability there.
Batteries also have a shelf life.
With that said, e-bikes with a supply of batteries and a means of charging them with portable solar panels are probably better for an extended disaster situation.
I have a Tesla because my VW engine died just out of warranty and a junkyard engine was $5k, a new one was $11k, just for the engine, no labor or extraneous parts.
The world where you can afford an engine replacement but not an electric car is pretty small.
Yea those prices are high. You can typically get a rebuilt engine installed for between $2500-5k but you have to go to a shop that specializes in rebuilds. A regular mechanic can't do that type of work and will just be looking for something they can drop in.
Batteries are often the part that has the longest warranty. It'll be a while before it's your problem, and even then, costs will probably be down by a lot.
That person had a PHEV (2014 Chevy Volt)... It was not totalled, they can still drive it on gas, and the battery is only 16.5kwh, so if you wanted to replace it (though you don't need to), its only like $5k.
So true! ☹️
I want and have wanted an EV since 2013.....can't afford one. So to be clear, it's not a matter of wanting, it's a matter of making an affordable one.
I would like to buy an electric car but I will not because;
Supply and demand, right? Surely they'll get cheaper, right?
Car dealers don't want to sell EVs, it's a lot more work for them
They can sell an ICE vehicle within an hour of a customer showing up on the lot.
EVs can take multiple days and sit downs to try and sell because people have questions since it's new and they want to understand the details before purchasing.
That means less commission, so salesmen try to avoid selling people EVs over ICE vehicles.
Also less money on repairs. ICE are in the dealership shop ten times as much.
Permanently Deleted
I would have bought a plug in electric, but my apartment didn't like the idea of me throwing extension cords out my second story window.
Dealers are waiting to see it the country becomes a full on fascist, road warrior, shit-hole country or continue on a path to a modern first world democracy.
You're not gonna sell shit with jacked up sky high prices, even more so in a time of high interest rates. We see your lots are full of unsold cars, both ICE and EV, so maybe it's time to bring prices back down to Earth.
We really ought to change the laws to allow for direct-to-consumer car sales. Dealerships are scummy motherfuckers who are perfectly happy to be a middleman and rip people off.
There's a huge wave of anti ev propaganda coming out. Beware.
Gotta push the EV infrastructure harder. No good pushing lots of EV cars when the infrastructure isn’t there to support them. Can’t charge at work. Can’t charge at your apartment complex. No charge at the shopping areas. Etc. Other than the high initial cost, I’d suggest that the inconvenience and irritation of trying to locate charging along with range limits is a major factor in people not wanting EV.
That is categorically false and it's dishonest to suggest so.
GDP is at the highest rate in years. We are at full employment. Participation rate is the highest it's been in 50 years. Wages outpaced inflation while inflation was crazy high helping debtors and the working class at the same time.
Your ideology blinds you.
Do you have a source on “wages outpac[ing] inflation”?
Yes, his ass. Hourly wages in 2018 were about 2$ more compared to the 1960s and the increases went to the 90th percentile of earners. And that was before the last big round of inflation.
To be fair, if you look at the median graph it does go ever so slightly up, which I think qualifies as “outpaces.” It is certainly a lot less dire than if inflation was outpacing wages, at least wages keeping pace with inflation is sustainable.
Most people get confused because inflation is already accounted for in most reported numbers.
https://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/eci.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjDiuPqoemCAxULFzQIHRmiCJEQFnoECBIQBg&usg=AOvVaw1jlbP0dE9X_Mpb3XsIXwT4
Broken link?
Sell EV’s under $30k and you’ll sellout!
The Bolt? Sorry, they are getting rid of that for a few years. Hell, it took a lot for them to even agree to bring the damn thing back. They were going to kill it despite its popularity.
It's ridiculous how bad EV prices are. They think 2 years of wages for a sedan with leather seats is reasonable
Ah you mean sedan with "vegan leather" or normal people would call it plastic :D
Do they even sell ice’s for that?
Average vehicle sale price in the US in 2023 was just under $48k… so only if you buy used.
That’s what I was thinking. I recently spoke to a man who said he looked at a new Ford ice. 100k. He repaired his 90s model.
Several brands have base models at ~20k plus tax. Nissan Sentra, Chevy Trax, etc...
You can get a base Tesla model 3 for under 30k with the federal incentive right now. Go to the website if you don’t believe me.
People still don’t understand that EVs have a total cost of ownership that saves you 10-20k over the life of the vehicle compared to an ICE vehicle. Now the sticker prices are getting cheaper than ICE vehicles and people still can’t get past the expensive versions from a few years ago.
If you’re waiting for Ford to offer a sub 30k vehicle, you’re going to be waiting a while. They seem to be giving up on trying to get to scale on production and won’t bring costs down on the numbers they’re pumping.
Oh I’m not in the market, and that’s still a lot of money. Thanks for that, because someone will find it useful.
When you get ready to get into the market, look at the full cost of ownership when you buy so you don’t end up paying more for a substandard product. Figure out your fuel/energy cost, insurance, maintenance costs over the amount of time you plan on owning the vehicle, then look at resale value.
Sticker price on an ICE is misleading compared to how much they cost to operate over time.
Oh I well know! Thank you though, we all could do that and shock ourselves!
I want an EV but the only affordable option is Chevy and somewhat the Nissan Leaf. Every other option is way to expensive. If my current car died, I guess I would buy one of them. But I'm going to drive it into ground or until sometime else affordable comes along.
Car dealers are useless middlemen that should be put out of business.
Give me an EV without a massive center console that blinds me at night. Remove all the "smart" features like lane assist. Give me a fucking dumb EV
This drives me crazy. Take a solid platform like the FRS.. electrify it for something equiv to 300/300 and give it a 200 mile range. No fancy interior, lots of plastic, no lane assist etc. It would be fun and affordable. Same platform could be used for a more refined crossover.
I feel like Honda really should have done some type r civic thing but with electric.
I really do think this will happen in the near future. Right now, every company is targeting the high end segment and slowly making it's way down.
I fucking love my frs. I can't stand seeing the interiors on even just fancy ICE cars now, much less electrics. My wife's traverse has a horrifically unintuitive touchscreen interface for the radio and rear A/C. My car is like the last of a dying breed. Have almost 150k miles now. It's a dream.
That's cool.. 150k? Nice. I regret not getting one when i had the chance but I felt like it should had at least a small turbo. And i wasn't overly confident with the aftermarket stuff. That said the gt86 platform is quite a base to build on.
But yeah, i hate the trend of a big touchscreen to do everything. Sometimes i wonder if it's just getting old but I really feel like the UIs are awful.
Display is ok for GPS and maybe some audio but I certainly prefer standard tactile interface methods. You are right, dying breed. Enjoy your ride!
The only one I've seen is the VW "e-up!".
I'd take an electrified peoples wagon
Upcoming Citroen e C3 - which Murica will prob never get
The smart features aren't really that much extra. You are basically just paying for a couple extra cameras. The software part is scaled across all models.
Yeah on a Tesla, other reputable manufacturers use radar and lidar as well as cameras and even microphones. Plus the software, a high end GPU. That right there is a 10k package at minimum. Also the labor of routing wires for all the equipment
Seriously where do you get your information?
I have dark mode and auto dimming on my huge center console monitor. It's a non issue. The only thing it really shows is my car on a map and what is playing on Spotify. I never look at it or am distracted by it when driving.
I do feel like there is room for a nice super simple EV with minimal/no screens and only the features required by law. It would need quite a few buttons for windows, heated seats, heated steering wheel, defrost, climate control etc but it would be quite a calm experience I think not having a huge monitor there.
Maybe to you, personally I'd rather have knobs and buttons on my console. Way less detracting and easier to operate without taking my eyes off the road. If I need a map, I have a GPS in my pocket where I can easily adjust the brightness or turn off the screen and follow the spoken directions. I have a 2016 Veloster and that has the biggest screen that should be in a car, also isn't there to operate the cats functions. Also have a 2021 Tuscon and the infotainment system is a fucking abomination and is just horrible to operate and drive at night with
Well, I don't think they are making cars like that anymore sadly. Would be cool with an EV that aged well because of no screens.
I looked up the interior for the Tuscon and yeah it's clear that they don't really know how to handle implementing a large monitor in a car. It has bad design, bad placement and bad software. Try test driving a Tesla sometime. You might like it. I come from a Kia Sportage 2012 Diesel so I had quite the adjustment to make but I am happier for it.
Fuck that I'm not driving a death trap
I'd rather buy a cheap ebike from wish
Based on the fact that Tesla receives top rating in all collision tests in all countries ( as far as I know ) https://www.euroncap.com/en/results/tesla/model+y/46618 https://www.euroncap.com/en/results/tesla/model-3/37573
I believe your risk assessment ability may be lacking. Tough the Wish ebike might be safer as it likely will not run.
I've had someone else's Tesla break in front of me passing a highway offramp, went from 120kph to 100 kph when there was not a single other vehicle around. Doesn't seem very safe to me
You're right. As a Tesla owner there's every reason to want the power, range, and maybe a couple of the features but with tangible controls etc
The Kia/Hyundai offerings are probably your closest bet.
I almost never use the assists. I don't mind the idea that if the computer sees a looming impact it will brake for me though.
My wife really likes the lane assist feature on her car. She says it helps her be less distracted when she drives.
I live out in the country where none of these features work for more than 2 min. Most cities around me are the same. Its a near useless feature that only cost (WAY) more for me
Our subdivision is basically in the country and she finds it helpful. I don't know, my car doesn't have it. I'd probably turn it off if it did. That's an option in her car.
I live on an unpaved road and am surrounded by farmers fields. Also we get snow and lots of it, so for 4 months its more dangerous to even think about using it.
We need people to pay more attention to the road not less. Tesla drivers (in my area) are the fucking worst drivers. Seen better BMW drivers
They have night settings just like the infotainment centers in ICE vehicles. They also have dimming functions if you have such sensitive eyes you can’t stand even a small amount of light coming from the console. This is not a real problem. This is you bitching about stuff you don’t want.
What if I want to change the interior temp? Am I supposed to pull over stare at this giant monstrosity if a screen? Right now I can simply turn a dial.
This has to be the worst defense of a sub standard idea that is a computer screen for a center console
No. You hit the button on the screen that changes the temp or you roll the right roller/button on the steering wheel.
The big lcd screen isn’t a mystery… it works like your phone… only a lot bigger so you don’t have to stare at it to know where to press. You can just glance and then look back at the road… like if it were an analog button.
Yeah but I don't use my phone while driving and neither should you, and that fucking monstrosity is no different than a phone. You CAN'T use it without taking your eyes off the road which is super fucking dangerous hence the reason for pulling over to use the POS as you should. Dont say autopilot makes it safe because that system doesn't work well as it can only use cameras and their machine learning model isn't that good and should NOT be relied on to make it safe to use a giant cellphone for a center console.
That’s pedantic. I wasn’t suggesting you use your phone while driving, I was describing the way you touch a screen. It is literally the exact same amount of distraction as pushing a button.
If you can’t handle touching a “fake button” without losing attention from the road, you probably shouldn’t be open operating heavy equipment at all.
Except there is no physical feedback, you NEED to look at that screen, I can manage 90% of my dash by feel and 90% of the controls I use are on my steering wheel.
Also everyone on the road isn't you, I was nearly in an accident as a passenger because my driver was looking at the screen because there was no physical buttons.
The physical feedback is your finger touching the screen. If it’s a skill you can’t learn, you should stick to old cars with outdated technology. Everyone isn’t capable of keeping up with technology. It’s fine.
Sounds like whoever drives you around is as incompetent as you are at managing their driving with new technology. You should find people with more coordination to drive you around.
It may also have something to do with all the announcements about changing the charging port. I wouldn’t buy a car when I know they’re changing g that next year. I mean, it’s about time, but that’s going to deter buyers
You can't sell EV's because:
1: too expensive to buy new 2: if you live anywhere that's not a big city, or you have a garage, there is basically no electric chargers for you.
The city I live in (~30k people) has 6 chargers total. None of them are superchargers. Wait times are already a sticking point in the best case, nevermind what the wait times would be if everyone where I'm at had an electric car tomorrow. The whole downtown would maybe gridlock just because of people waiting.
For comparison, there are probably 2-300 gas pumps around the city. 5 gas stations within 5 minutes of where I am, all with at least 8 pumps, all well used. People are not going to get EV's unless there is an infrastructure that is equivalent to gas around where they live.
And that infrastructure is not gonna be fun to get going.
The average person living in the city can't really use them with street parking, can't always guarantee a spot after all, and installing a personal one for yourself all but requires a personal garage, which locks out the people who live in poorer housing.
Lots of people in my city and I suspect many others live in trailer parks with low/fixed incomes, having just a simple driveway. Where are they gonna get the thousand or two to install a Level 2 charging station? My mom and dad certainly don't have the money.
Expecting the EV companies to make the infrastructure with the money they get just from selling EV's is gonna turn into one gigantic chicken-and-egg problem. The government is going to have to do it, and anyone who's not living along an interstate can see just how much benefit they are personally getting from it so far.... (hint: none)
A second hand Renault Zoe can be had for about £5k. MG4 for about £25k if you insist on getting new. I appreciate these may not be options where you live but the prices are coming down if you're willing to look beyond the traditional brands.
What these articles fail to mention is that it's the "legacy" brands like Ford that are struggling. Brands like BYD and Tesla are doing just fine and are struggling to keep up with demand in some cases.
Also, you charge at home.
The infrastructure where you live doesn't matter. The infrastructure where you're going to or on the route might matter if it's far away enough.
I live in a town with a smaller population than yours. We have 2 chargers at 50kw, which is pretty slow by modern standards.
So far I've used it once when testing that the car was working okay when I first got it. That's it. Never used it since. Because I charge at home.
Nearest super charger is around 50 miles away. Which is fine. Because I'll always leave with 100% charge.
I've never waited for charging. Probably because I own a Tesla and have access to their super charging network which was about 50% the reason I got that over the Ioniq 5 or Nissan Aryia. I look forward to the competition getting better and my recommendation being beyond "get a Tesla if you're worried about charging".
And yes, I have done long trips (at least by UK standards) and I have needed to charge before I got home. But the car's range is bigger than my bladder's/stomach's range so frankly I would have stopped anyway and the car took care of adding charging stops for me.
I have seen people queuing at non Tesla chargers and can only assume it's a frustrating experience. In the UK new chargers are being opened at an impressive rate (up ~40% on last year, IIRC) so hopefully that issue won't be so bad in the future.
It's not there yet, but the problems are getting solved and the prices are coming down. If you can charge at home then it's probably a good option. If you can't, that's another matter.
In the same way you don't care about MTU settings to get the best out of your Internet these days, you won't care about the issues with charging and prices soon. It will suddenly get better and nobody will even notice or care anymore.
You don't need a level 2 charger at home. You don't need gas stations equivalents. EV companies won't make infrastructure, because we've already built tons of infrastructure for EVs and it's called the electric grid. Everywhere has electricity. I was recently in a very remote area for vacation in my EV, and just plugged my car into a regular outlet to charge it up. To get there, I stopped for lunch and plugged my car in at a supercharger while I ate.
Target is putting in superchargers at lots of their locations around me. Other places are or will follow suit. If you can't charge at home, you'll simply stop by the store/mall/whatever, do your normal shopping, and have your car charge in the meantime. Or you'll charge at work, or any number of other places.
EVs aren't hard, they just require a mindset shift. People worry about this and that, but it's because they haven't actually tried it and have given too much weight to FUD spread about EVs.
You really can't expect equal infrastructure to gas when so many people can charge at home and that's enough for the vast majority of driving. DC fast charging is for road trips and people who can't charge at home for whatever reason (mainly apartments). Yes, I understand they exist.
That said, the home modifications needed are often overestimated. I got a 50 amp 240V outlet installed in my garage. One electrician quoted $1300, but GM has a promo for a free installation. That guy quoted $1800, but GM paid it in full. More importantly: my panel is on the other side of the house. They had to run about 50 feet of wiring through my laundry room and up to the front of my garage - hardly a typical scenario when so many people have the panel in or near their garage already. That was for a huge circuit that will basically last me forever. But honestly? So many people grossly overestimate their needs. Even a little 16A 240V outlet would be just fine for most people, most of the time, and that's really not much different than adding a normal outlet in terms of cost. Speaking of normal outlets, even that can get you a few dozen miles of charge overnight, every night, which is pretty close to what an average person drives over a year.
If a person in a trailer park is buying a brand new car from a dealership they can afford to have a level 2 charger installed. But also a lot of people are fine with just a normal plug.
There will NEVER be an equal amount of chargers as gas stations simply because it's not necessary. Most people charge at home.
When I bought my Volt 10 years ago, I knew more about the car than any of the dealer sales people. I doubt the situation has changed much. That being said, I would hesitate to recommend an EV to a non technically inclined person, because the charging situation is still rough even in CA. Stations are often broken, or the billing doesn't work, or they are in inconvenient areas. Gas is still the idiot proof option. We will know we're really in the future when you can go to most grocery stores or strip mall and charge with tap to pay (no stupid app to pre-configure). There has to be 95% reliability. Right now I'd say about 1/5 of stations I visit have something wrong with them in terms of no internet connection for billing, slow charging, illegible UV-damaged screen, or just outright broken hardware. https://heatmap.news/electric-vehicles/nema-14-50-mobile-charger-lucid-air
car dealers literally don't need to exist and make the buying experience worse for everyone
Translation: Car dealers don't make as much money from EV's.
Car sales is a racket anyway, the dealers make too much money, the car manufacturers make too much money, and with the prospect of a new technology that costs more they've realised that they can't charge as much more, meaning they profit less.
Price is not proportional to cost.
The biggest crime is the villainisation of haggling. Price must be negotiable for a system to remain fair.
Yeah, hate haggling. Never know if it is actually a good deal, and tracking prices and deals is so unreliable compared other goods with the way those have historic price tracking recorded on sites like camelcamelcamel or keepa. Keeps consumers in the dark with only a broad idea of what isn't a scam price and making the experience as exhausting as possible to extract money from them.
If it's cheaper than the list price, it's at least a better deal.
Correction
EV cars are better than ICE cars, but the biggest problems with cars are so much bigger than the type of engine they use. As grateful as I am for EV cars being a thing sometimes they just feel like a distraction from solving the actual fundamental issues around transportation.
I refuse to buy a DRM infested iPhone / un-rootable Android on wheels with data hoarding spyware and no access to service manuals, parts or service tools. Also decent build quality without excessive and inappropriate use of plastic.
My car is a not a 10 year disposable item. ~< 2008 era cars for me.
I'd argue that cars becoming part of the disposable economy is even worse for the eNViRoMeNt.
A problem with EV is those cars are infected with DRM.
Remember tesla deactivate DLC ?
Are hybrids still a thing?
Wasn't there a story like a week ago about dealers sabotaging EV sales?
Article: Electric vehicles are hitting a road block: Car dealers
Thank you!
A couple of them. This is more fuel to the dealership dumpster fire.
I've totally got the money to buy a new car. My 2005 forester is getting long in the tooth and i'm ready to replace it.
I want a smallish car with the same basic features: AWD, 4door, boxy rear so I can toss a full size mtn bike in there, good in the snow, etc.
My distinct impression is that the manufacturers want to sell high end (all the options and $$) but don't give a shit about usability. Chevy volt comes close but can't take a bike.
This year, 18% of all automobile sales worldwide were electric cars. In the US, that's about 7%.
They refuse to learn about them and actively direct people to ICE vehicles. No shit they are having a 'hard time' selling them. They have tried less than nothing to sell them.
I have Ford hybrid manuals. It won't do you much good on the cost of the tools to work on them. Best advice on hybrids is to learn how to disconnect your battery before servicing your vehicle.
If you can afford the 3k tool then it is only 1k per year :D
This seems not good. I might have been slightly more sympathetic to the dealers before reading this?
Lol yeah, I've worked in a dealership. I was fine with it till my foreman got fired because he took all the blame from customers instead of staff.
Anyways when they were interviewing his replacement I started looking for a new job. I got into it with him because he wouldn't even listen to anyone talk about pay raises.
High turnover in sales has been common for forever in some dealerships. Many salesmen work only commission so they hire more than needed, don't train them and let anyone who doesn't meet quota go. Meeting quota is impossible because there are more salesmen than needed, and you need years to build up a following of loyal customers (most customers are not loyal no matter what you do, but the few who are go to the few long timers) . Non loyal customers like to think they are buying from the new salesman so long timers have a set of business cards without a name on them to hand out.
The above is what I remember from an Edmund's article from around 2000 when they hired a new writer and the first story was to get a job selling cars to find out what it was really like. I doubt much has changed. (Not all car sales are that way, but many are, and that is reflected in turnover)
I agree with them but not for the reasons they would like, less pushing of EVs more pushing of good public transportation.
I'm not buying an EV not because of lack of infrastructure or lack of interest, but because the product sucks.
I'm not buying a gas car either for the same product sucking reason, and an active desire to never purchase a gas car again.
I just leased an Ioniq 6 from a Hyundai dealership end of October. The salesperson was great, but she didn’t know anything about EVs, especially their own. She even admitted it was the first one she’s sold.
I went back a week ago and found the same 5 Ioniq 6’s sitting there. I’m pretty sure they’ll stay there for quite a while.
She hasn't even sold that one, since you leased it instead of buying it.
Fair enough, I went lease because everyone’s going NACS soon.
NACS?
Tesla’s plug. Nearly every auto manufacturer has announced changing to it in future EV generations.
Thanks!
That's definitely one of the smarter reasons for leasing I've ever heard.
Wow angling to pass lawyers as the most reviled profession in the country huh?
Fellas, fellas, please. I assume you, I wouldn't buy the gas one either.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
After making record profits in the wake of the pandemic and the collapse of just-in-time inventory chains, they're now complaining that selling electric vehicles is too hard.
Almost 4,000 dealers from around the United States have sent an open letter to President Joe Biden calling for the government to slow down its plan to increase EV adoption between now and 2032.
More and more car buyers are opting to go fully electric each year, although even a record 2023 will fail to see EV uptake reach double-digit percentages.
Mindful of the fact that transportation accounts for the largest segment of US carbon emissions and that our car-centric society encourages driving, the US Department of Energy published a proposed rule in April that would alter the way the government calculates each automaker's corporate average fuel efficiency.
Over the summer, industry analysts at Cox Auto made plenty of headlines with data showing that new EV inventory was growing.
Helpfully, the dealers published a complete list of the 3,882 signatories, making it very easy for people to see which businesses are opposing action on climate change.
The original article contains 586 words, the summary contains 183 words. Saved 69%. I'm a bot and I'm open source!
car dealers bring as much value to society as landlords. it's a negative value.
We bought an EV recently and the dealership told us the Market Adjustment was the easiest thing to negotiate away.
That's because it's a made up number that they add on instead of just pricing the vehicle accurately. So then they advertise it as $60K and then add the market adjustment of $40K.
If I was Attorney General I'd be shutting dealers down if the price before TTL was even $1 higher than the advertised price.
"The hard times of the Middle Man". I can see the book now.
Sure they can. Just give the $7500 credit to an EV worth its price.
Hmm, then what's your purpose again?
I wonder if new vehicle sales are down overall. If I had to replace my car today, I'd be looking for something second hand.
Edit: According to Cox Automotive Inc., September sales were actually up 13% from last year. Huh.
Covid-19 shut down a lot of factories. Not just US car factories but also suppliers of small/cheap components (some of them worth less than one cent each) just couldn't be purchased in large volumes.
As far as I know the industry still hasn't fully recovered. 13% year over year growth isn't a 13% increase in demand, it's a 13% increase in the number of cars they're able to sell.
The car dealers need to be abolished. Not even an ICE vs EV argument, car dealers are fucking awful, they barely know shit and borderline scam their customers trying to up the price of everything and then 'pretend haggle' down to a 'reasonable price' that's still probably 30k over msrp
Well today is a sellers market! A war in the gulf, Operation Epstein Fury, is just what the public needs to make EVs more affordable and attractive.
... in the US.
EVs will sell when non-hybrid ICEs aren’t being made anymore.
Non-hybrid ICEs will have quite the demand while that’s happening and dealers can expect to be able to rip people off again while it’s happening.
oh... no... nobody want to buy a car with small range for 3 times higher price?
Good - I’d rather more people try public transit, walking, or biking. And if you absolutely need to use a car, then advocate for better urban infrastructure because the US is waaaaaay too car-dependent and we need to start not being that way
They are not pushing for more public transportation. They are pushing for more ICE vehicles because the sales people do not want to learn about EVs and they also get less money from maintenance.
I was referring to the consumers, not the sales people.
The whole EV thing is the same scam as Hydrogen Fuel Cell cars were under Bush. It's not real. It never was real. It's just an opportunity to dump a bunch of taxpayer money on Detroit and give the petroleum industry another decade of profits while the US government pretends to solve oil dependency with one more fake solution.
They don't work. It's simply not possible. Cars can't continue to exist like they do today because every person carrying around several tons of metal everywhere just doesn't make any kind of sense.
Cause they are a shitty solution for most people. Folks have only been saying this 10 or so years now.
PHEV is a far better solution for most people and it's easier to build more batteries to using less material.