There's a reason the right wing is always trying to ban birth control/abortion, push those trashy '16 and pregnant' shows, complain about teen pregnancy rates being down, want to legalize child marriage and child labor. Kids are just one way that capitalism traps you into being dependent on the system and desperate. For those in the US health insurance is another. And over-reliance on cars. They love to put a recurring cost on anything that's necessary to maintaining your survival/quality of life, because then you're dependent on perpetuating the system.
I think OOP is referring specifically to the cultural pressures everywhere telling you that you need to have kids. The people pushing that the most are conservatives who are straight up puppets for billionaires
Also more soldiers to send off on needless wars like the Vietnam War, Korean War, Iran War , Afghan War, etc...
All the wars Injust mentioned didnt substantially change any of the lives of the peoples of the countries that participated in them.
Vietnam is still a somewhat socialistic state, North Korea and South Korea still exist till today, Iran is still ruled miliarily by the IRGC and parliamentarily by the Iranian clerical elites, and the Afghanis still dont care at all about nato and are rulled by the Taliban....
Just more soldiers into thhe needless meat grinders, and more slaves and consumers to do the bidding of the richest people in society.
There will be more and more needless wars with dozens of innocent , impressionable adults thrown into the different meat grinders. There will be mroe and more people turned into personal toys for the rich or into their slaves and consumers ...
It is not until the average person gets fed up and knowledgable about how this circular and awful system fucks them , their loved ones, their communities and the kids of their communities over and says "No More! " will we see a substantial change to be subsubstantiated.
A hobby that makes money is a job, once you start to depend on it it starts being stressful and stops being a hobby. I've been through that cycle a couple of times.
I've completed sailing course recently, and I'm still in awe that one of activities that the instructors do in their spare time is handling the private yachts between ports, like bringing one from Greece to Spain. Seems like an awesome side gig.
The same case could be made for hobbies. You need money for hobbies, so they trap you in the system.
I don't think this is quite right. If you want to make changes in your life, you're free to abandon your hobbies in ways that you are not free to abandon your children.
Destroy capitalism and suddenly having kids is great
Depends on the system. The reason why capitalism has proliferated is it allows selfishness, which is part of human nature. Honestly, is there a better economic system, which also rewards selfishness like capitalism?
The main reason why capitalism has proliferated is because capitalists slaughtered everyone who opposed it at first. Millions killed across all of Europe, simply for defending their homes and common land from being taken by the Church and aristocracy.
After resistance was crushed, and people no longer owned anything, they had no choice but to work as slaves for capitalists. Ever since then, they have constantly been pitting us against each other, and we've had no choice but to play their game, since otherwise it's homelessness or death.
People tend to be a whole lot less selfish if they don't need to struggle for survival, and if they're not brainwashed into thinking it has to be this way from early childhood.
In every single study and poll, results consistently show that close to nobody supports capitalism, and nearly everyone is perfectly willing to share fairly, so that we can all live well.
Selfishness is not human nature. At least not for the majority of people. Cooperation, sharing, and helping others are. It might not be obvious, because capitalists have been forcefully beating it out of us for the last 500 years.
But it doesn't matter. Capitalists hold all the power, as they've always had, and will sooner die than let any meaningful change take place. Governments would rather order the military to shoot protesters than listen to any anti-capitalist points.
We're not allowed to question anything about capitalism. It's the worst, most destructive religion anyone has ever come up with and forced onto others, built on the most asinine dogmas possible.
That all is alleviated by a decent social support though. I have a kid and after losing a job last year I collected state benefits, he still went to school and nothing changed about insurance. Sure there was less money but still enough.
Idk how to tell you but everyone around me is so poor that if I fall there's nothing to catch me at all... Hell, there's borrowed money I fully expect to never get back too... I'm sure I'm not the only one in this situation
Some of it is alleviated. A social support net will arrest your fall if something unfortunate happens (like losing a job), but you still can't just walk away from it all if you so choose.
Most people would feel bad causing their family to fall apart and inflicting trauma on their children, I think that is more motivating than name calling.
Doesnt the government of most countries come after a person if that person accidentally produces a child and then doesnt oay child support? Thats what Ive seen before but maybe Im wrong...
ALSO the right to give a child up to adoption is questionable in most countries too.
It was about how having kids "traps you in the system". You need to work and so on so you can take care of your kids. Sure you can just abandon them, but most people don't want to make their kids suffer and feel obligation to raise them either morally or legally. Therefore they are stuck doing a job and having a life they wouldn't necessarily want if they hadn't had kids. They're not literally "trapped" like someone isn't literally stuck in prison, they can escape if they are creative or lucky enough.
Ummm no? Doesnt the government of most countries come after a person if that person accidentally produces a child and then doesnt oay child support? Thats what Ive seen before but maybe Im wrong...
ALSO the right to give a child up to adoption is questionable in most countries too.
Its not the name calling its just that legally speaking the government and their bribed mercenary piggies will go out of their way to hunt you, tax you, and kill you if do choose to become a deadbeat.
I feel as if this further justifies universal access to voluntary birth control, abortions, and sterilizations globally.
Because all because someone and their parrtner(s) have a breeding kink that doesnt mean thatt they have the time, psyche , or money to raise a child. Esoecially in today's world where living paycheque to paycheque is the default for most people. So that means all humans have gained the right to delay producing children , even forever, cause how do we know if things will improve economically? Things probably wont improve. The majority of humanity has seemed to be OK with this current 'paycheque-to-paycheque' status quo for decades....so....
You were already trapped in it at birth. Your opinion on the matter was not sought, your consent (or lack thereof) is of no consequence. There is no escape from the trap, and only one way out regardless of the choices you make while inside the trap (the way out is not an escape, it is merely springing the trap early).
The only action that really matters, the only choice you can make that has any consequence, is how you treat the other souls you meet in the trap while you're there.
See also: aging parents, marriage, real estate, college education, car payments. Like, this person is hyperfocused on children, but any commitment of any kind comes with sacrifices and restriction unless you're endlessly wealthy.
You can walk away from every single one of those things. Aging parents aren't your responsibility (if they are, there's something deeply wrong with how they lived their lives). Marriages can be annulled. You can drop out of college and sell the car. All of those things can be reversed to a reasonable degree.
You can't walk away from your kids under any circumstances (aside from giving them up for adoption, which still doesn't exactly sever their connection to you or your responsibility towards them) -- they exist entirely and completely because you desired it to be so.
Every state in the US has a safe-haven law on the books. You can drop a baby off at nearly any firestation, sometimes in completely anonymous baby boxes, and absolve yourself of responsibility. It's literally easier to get rid of a child than it is student loan debt.
Just because it's technically possible – like, for example, murdering one's abuser is an option – doesn't mean it's something that most parents would be willing to consider. There's your bond with your child, there's empathy, there's guilt, there's family and friends judging you, and potentially cutting you off if you decide to do it, ... I'm sure there's places in the world where it's worse, or straight up illegal.
Yes, which circles back to my initial point: all the things I listed and more "trap" you in the same way. The emotions and repercussions you describe also apply to plenty of things beyond caring for a child. Parenthood is not the unique trap that OP's post implies.
OP states the entrapment of "people depending on you" which is uniquely different from the other things you've mentioned. With aging parents, it depends on the culture and retirement support given by the state, but then again, they brought you into this world, not the other way around. With a partner, I could see a case being made if said partner is disabled. But with kids, you are (typically) the reason they're here.
Aging parents aren't your responsibility (if they are, there's something deeply wrong with how they lived their lives).
I don't agree with this at all. People have problems and need help all the time without it being all their fault. If they didn't, there would be almost no homeless people, maybe zero.
There's a definite overlap in this community of people that don't want kids and people that were traumatized by their parents. I totally get that. It seems like some of them also get so fixated on "parent bad" that they paint everyone with the same experience they've had.
That's not even remotely what I said. I said they're not your responsibility and you can indeed walk away from them should you choose to because you had no hand in their existence. You can choose to help them or care for them but that is 100% a conscious choice on your end, you are under zero actual obligation to do so.
This world view is very self-centered, and also inconsistent.
Inconsistent: Your argument is essentially, "you can abandon your aging parents, but you can't abandon a child." False. If you're okay with abandoning aging parents, why not leave a child up for adoption? Both are, quite frankly, gross concepts
Self-centered: Humans are social creatures, and part of being social is community. And I mean IRL community. For many that community include immediate and extended family. For others, it's found family. Either way, yes, a person can "walk away", and there are consequences. Also, I'm taking care of my mom. She's 85. If I abandon her, she'll be put in a home, and all of her things become property of the state. So, to a degree, she is my responsibility, as well as my other siblings. If we abandon her, her community will help, but not to the degree that she could maintain her independence and quality of life. And it would break her heart. Is there something wrong with how she lived her life?
I can't tell if you're just young, or very socially isolated, or both. Yes children bog a person down, shackle them to a way of life that allows the child to (hopefully) thrive. So do other things. If a person is so isolated they can pull up stakes and go with a snap of their fingers that person is deeply wrong with how their living their life.
Yes, I assume most people have at least a nominally healthy relationship with their parents. Perhaps that's naive. I don't assume everyone does, but even with found family a healthy balance includes older parental/Uncle/Aunt type figures that get older and sometimes need help.
My greater point is that no man person is an island. We are (almost) all anchored by various social responsibilities. Those ties that bind also add richness and variety to life
...Ummm no. If I were to abuse someone or something , even a pet, why in the fuck would I expect 'sOcIal RepSonSibIlTiEs' to keeo them connected to me? Abuse is a choice. By making the choice to abuse someone or soemthing a person has lost all rights to be tied to that thing. Ive burnt The Social Contract and now must fave the consequences. Its not hard to just not be an asshole and to just use a little critical thinking and little empathy.
Abuse and abusers adds no 'richness' to life. If anything they destroy life , and those abusers probably spent most of their life doing what IOF soldiers are currently doing in Palestine or what american marines did in Iran and Afghanistan. Do people like this add 'richness' to anyone's life in your opinion? Lool!
Some people are forced to become an island temporarily to escape abuse and my condolences to all those who have been abused 🫂
I'm sorry, what? When did abuse ever come up? I think you might be way inside your own head there. The entire point of found family is when your birth parents are either dead or abusive and you've gone no contact. Where in my reply did I say you have to stay with abusers? What are you even talking about? You're reading my reply from the perspective of an abusive parent. I'm talking about how decent people always are connected to others. There is some seriously toxic projection going on in this thread
Also, often if someone says another person "probably" does something, without evidence, their argument is invalid. Go touch grass, friend, and think about something positive. You definitely need it
Yeah, but she's right in that employers definitely exploit that sometimes. They know you can't just walk away from a raw deal on a whim because while you may be willing to risk yourself, they're keenly aware that most aren't willing to risk their children's food and shelter
They know you can’t just walk away from a raw deal on a whim because while you may be willing to risk yourself, they’re keenly aware that most aren’t willing to risk their children’s food and shelter
Thank you. Every choice in life limits other choices. Yes when you have children, you then have to care for them. What lifestyle you must live is up to you though. The ones that must keep up with whoever is the 'in group' are always going to have a harder time than those to learn to go for what they really want and need in life and not what a TikTok tells them they do.
I watched the movie Babes with my wife last night, and it perfectly encapsulated this tweet.
And I surprisingly enjoyed it despite being childfree myself. It didn't gloss over the shity parts of parenthood like most movies do, and it was honest about how much it can suck.
The problem is as /u/[email protected] pointed out, an issue of capitalism. The movie unfortunately and unsurprisingly didn't address that, it sort or just carried on with the status quo assumption that the current situation and system doesn't need replaced. That's the only bit I didn't enjoy.
IMO the best replacement system I've seen proposed is the Aandrisk system of hatch/feather/house families from Becky Chamber's "The Long Way to a Small, Angry Planet" series.
For those unfamiliar, Aandrisks are humanoid reptiles with feathers for hair, and they divide their lives into three sections, hatch family, feather family, and house family.
Everyone is "born" as hatchling, being raised in groups of a dozen or two, in hatch families. They aren't really considered people until they are physically mature. Generally they aren't actually siblings, but instead come from donated eggs.
Once they mature they leave to go form feather families. These basically are polycules of people in their 20s to late 30s that are there for community, sexual relations, and to explore the world. They don't raise kids, they live their life and gain experience. Any offspring they do produce gets dropped off at a house family.
House families are older groups, often formed from old feather families who are looking to settle down and stabilize. They take in eggs from feather families and raise them to maturity.
It's got an elegance we are very much lacking in humans, especially with capitalism being in the mix.
Sorry for your OCD but to be completely honest I dont see how humanity can improve our current living situation without living in communes of some sort.
we currently live in large cities, large municipalities, and large countries where most people barely know eacj other and barely feel anything for each other . We are ruled by police officers, bribed politicians and multimillionaaires, multimillionaires who could launch nukes to eradicate 99% of the population of species on Earth at a moments notice. And on top of that we work longer hours these days than most of our ancestors ever did work and at a moment's notice any of us could lose our jobs leading to homelessness or the loss of our social standing or the los of our loved ones.... This is throoguhly divorced from the original style of livong that humans used to have back when our ancestors started creating these same municipalities a nd social communities. But humans are social creatures - most humans need a 'tribe' of some sort that they can defend, work for, work with, love, and be loved by. Why would we firther divorce our species from the original forms of communitiy which humanity found to be so beneficial back then. Humans spent easily 95% of of our species existence living in small tribes, small communes and small villages. Such a lifestyle and such colmunities are practically in our blood at this point.
What I think is that if yoy did ever live in a tribe you could call your own maybe theyd help you with living a lifestyle that would help you to treat your OCD or theyd craft their lifestyles in ways to help you and them communicate and spend time together even with your OCD. Hopefully 🫂
I wish you and all of us the best on this journey forward cause what we have today just isnt working for most people as far as Im concened.
I fully agree with you. Not just about needing communes for the society structure, but also for the culture and mindset of community and mutual well being.
I think the closest most people tend to get to living in a tribe/walkable community is living in college dorms. And that actually worked out really well for me for the most part. The critical thing for me was having my own space to myself to retreat to that is clean to my standards. It's in slight contradiction to the anarchist philosophy I'd like to see humanity move towards.
This is so true. I was literally just thinking about this in regard to feeling shackled to an unhappy lifestyle because obligations to my children's lifestyle encroach on my own freedom. I love my kids, but I'd never give anybody a hard time for choosing to not have kids of their own. Having kids is without a doubt a big personal sacrifice with a long commitment.
What constitutes a "section"? There are definitely signs in stores that say "family planning" and there's several items grouped together with guaranteed shelf space. This is true in Walmart and most any other stores that carry products like that.
Been to and lived in many countries on this planet.
These things are usually just a few shelves in a general health area. Depending on the country, kind of hdden in a way to not draw attention to the customer wanting to buy magnums or the day after pill.
Ongoing contraception is usually just picked up from the pharmacy or delivered.
Okay you're just wrong and didn't even engage with what I said. They label those sections in the US commonly, maybe usually, but I'm not arguing about something this stupid so have fun ✌️
Same could be said about mortgages and loans. Yeeees, take the loan for the big house. Now you are trapped in the grind-spiral and need to work your ass off
Personal freedom always only really was available for criminals and vagabonds. Maybe royalty and stuff as well but I think they were more or less trapped in the system as well with what they were allowed to do or how to behave.
My point is for most of human history survival and safety naturally was way more important than personal freedom, which actually lead to the development of all the systems we have in place now and which only now made it possible to experience this personal freedom to begin with which of course you lose when another person is completely dependent of you.
So having personal freedom really is something special and luxurious and not the default state which you have to give up for kids. It's more like you have to give up having kids to have the possibility of personal freedom (but even then most people don't have or had it).
I might say it's just a luxury of youth. Get older and even being a criminal or a vagabond still gets expensive. Eventually, it's not the kids that weigh you down. It's your own old bones.
The only real "liberation" is death. And there's no fun in that.
No kids, but with no guts or financial sense I'm as trapped as if I had kids. I quit my job and spent two years draining my savings and barely traveled or lived any kind of interesting life. I got a new job that started at 40% of what I made at the job I quit, moved back in with my parents and have gotten addicted to not paying rent. I could move out and live a life of poverty or continue to not spend $2k/month on rent and live fairly luxuriously. I'm nearing 50, never married. My married friends are getting near empty nest status but they understandably want to spend time with their spouses. I'm 5 years away from being eligible for "senior living" where I'll relive my 20s smoking bowls and playing video games with my friends.
I'm not in a hurry to get turned down by old ladies. I won't inherit the house, it'll be sold and the proceeds split with my brother. My parents are passing 80 and are on a health kick doing youtube calisthenics and homeopathic remedies with the hope of living to 100.
I get down voted a lot on this subject but people really have no idea what goes on in schools. It's like I had teachers tell me don't get into teaching, I'm stubborn, and well yeah they were right. In an ideal world, it would be great. The reality is you have good days and you have the where's the 4L bottle of vodka that was posted today.
The only people who seem to like the school system are the administrators and board members. Everybody else from the students to the parents to the teachers finds it terrible.
Fosters aren't cannibals, well, most of them at least. What they will do is kidnap them and place them with a foster family who is being paid to turn your child into a profitable slave asset for capitalism.
Better systems don't tie healthcare to jobs, so that's one stressor that better places don't have, that threat held over people. They also have paid leave from work and lower cost childcare. Their populations can still decline but they will adapt to manage it and people are happier there. Any chance for those improvements are with the Dem platform and a sustained supermajority, it only gets worse with maga.
Yeah universal healthcare and affordable childcare would unlock huge amounts of productivity, but the fact that our oligarchs haven't implemented those things says it's not actually about productivity, like they claim. It's about control.
Survival is necessary to have freedom, unless you are seeking freedom from life.
And people seem to be able to be miserable in any life. A steady paycheck certainly helps me be less miserable, and unless you are a trust fund baby I don't see how you are going to go have so many adventures without a source of income.
When people pay every month to own a car be an idiot.
Her: "Hey bae, naughty idea! lets do it in your ferarri!"
"...uhh....ya ... MY ferarri. But we will have to have like dry, no-movement sex . No liquids or scratches can get anywhere on the interior at all or else the monthly cost will go up." 😋👍🏻
Not even a Ferrari, just some boring half SUV thing with a shitload of dumb accessories. Then in a few years they get another one because they can't afford to pay it off completely but they can afford to pay every month forever.
This is what it means to be responsible. It's no longer just about you, but something more. Some people find that suffocating. Others find it liberating.
Very true, and in a pretty surprising turn, most folks really only know how they respond once they get there.
But to the point, the biggest cause of variance between the two is just available resources. Responsibility spans the dial between powerful lived experience of wholesome capability and crippling mortal burden from which no escape but death is available. I'd say that dial is twisted more by support / resources / precarity than by individual characteristics, certainly more than an individual's willingness to "rise to the occasion" or similar.
They're not wrong though. Did you see that Simpsons episode as to why there isn't any picture of Maggie in their family photo album? Because it's "do it for her".
"Having kids traps you!" is right in line with the attitude of the community.
That's just how certain people think. Social attachments, legal obligations, and interpersonal debts are all engineered plots to ruin your carefree life.
I'm generally fine hearing people like this say they don't want kids. I would not want that kind of person as a parent.
So close. What traps us in the system is locked real estate. We are not owners of the land anymore, means we cant grow our own crops, build our own houses from our own resources. This means we are locked in a market that can abuse us.
Getting and raising children always was a village effort. But the village long gone and replaced by this corrupt system where we prefer to diabolize children over rioting.
Counter offer, multigenerational homes. Let the kids stay at home for their entire lives if they want to. They can start paying a bit towards the bills once they are adults.
Oh yeah and a house with more than 2 adults working, especially once the mortgage is paid off? You could work 1 day a week each and have plenty of money.
I suppose as your kids get partners if half move out and half move in its sustainable there too. Keep at it and build up some intergenerational wealth?
Why can't people see that this community and every post in it is a reaction to a lifetime of being pressured into having kids? I have seen zero posts here and very few comments here which cannot be easily explained by that dynamic.
You don't have to choose to see any sentiment less than neutral when it comes to kids as hatred toward kids. In fact out of every time a child themselves bothered me, I blamed the parents 99% of the time for standing there and watching their child behave shittily
See thats another reason why i don't have kids, its an mlm. After i am done with the hamsterwheel, my kids can jump in and would be caught up in it to care for me? No thanks.
People working with the old know very well that having kids will not guarantee you actual help when you are old, which often is just dew to circumstance and not even malice.
There are some positives to having kids, most of them emotional but they are objectivly a very bad deal in all other aspects.
And if you think that is a good reason to have kids you should never be even close to one. The only worse reason I could imagine is "their kidneys will be compatible when I need one"
I didn't mention kids though did I, that is your own assumption of what I meant.
My comment is on entering a "system" which you feel entrapped by. Old age, unless you are very lucky is going to lead to the exact same result as this person is bemoaning about parenthood. The irony being you often enter a kid like state yourself, dependent on others turning up for you.
But if you want to know, I agree that you should not have the kids with the expectation they are going to have to care for you.
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This is the primary reason why people aren't having children imo. This and that the system isn't contributing enough
True, but it's not a having kids problem. It's a capitalism problem, as usual.
The same case could be made for hobbies. You need money for hobbies, so they trap you in the system.
Destroy capitalism and suddenly having kids is great (relatively speaking, subject to personal preferences).
There's a reason the right wing is always trying to ban birth control/abortion, push those trashy '16 and pregnant' shows, complain about teen pregnancy rates being down, want to legalize child marriage and child labor. Kids are just one way that capitalism traps you into being dependent on the system and desperate. For those in the US health insurance is another. And over-reliance on cars. They love to put a recurring cost on anything that's necessary to maintaining your survival/quality of life, because then you're dependent on perpetuating the system.
I think OOP is referring specifically to the cultural pressures everywhere telling you that you need to have kids. The people pushing that the most are conservatives who are straight up puppets for billionaires
They need more labor and consumers. Every American is more profit for the corporations that rule us.
Also more soldiers to send off on needless wars like the Vietnam War, Korean War, Iran War , Afghan War, etc...
All the wars Injust mentioned didnt substantially change any of the lives of the peoples of the countries that participated in them.
Vietnam is still a somewhat socialistic state, North Korea and South Korea still exist till today, Iran is still ruled miliarily by the IRGC and parliamentarily by the Iranian clerical elites, and the Afghanis still dont care at all about nato and are rulled by the Taliban....
Just more soldiers into thhe needless meat grinders, and more slaves and consumers to do the bidding of the richest people in society.
There will be more and more needless wars with dozens of innocent , impressionable adults thrown into the different meat grinders. There will be mroe and more people turned into personal toys for the rich or into their slaves and consumers ...
It is not until the average person gets fed up and knowledgable about how this circular and awful system fucks them , their loved ones, their communities and the kids of their communities over and says "No More! " will we see a substantial change to be subsubstantiated.
The "life script" (to happiness?)
some hobbies. Other hobbies can even make you money.
A hobby that makes money is a job, once you start to depend on it it starts being stressful and stops being a hobby. I've been through that cycle a couple of times.
Okok, what i wanted to say; a lot of hobbies are free or next-to-free.
My hobby is data entry in spreadsheets for banks and oil companies.
My condolences.
I've completed sailing course recently, and I'm still in awe that one of activities that the instructors do in their spare time is handling the private yachts between ports, like bringing one from Greece to Spain. Seems like an awesome side gig.
If you like being beholden to the Epstein class, sure.
To be honesty, they didn't look like they were handling mega yachts. You do know that there are a ton of smaller boats all over the place, right?
I don't think this is quite right. If you want to make changes in your life, you're free to abandon your hobbies in ways that you are not free to abandon your children.
Depends on the system. The reason why capitalism has proliferated is it allows selfishness, which is part of human nature. Honestly, is there a better economic system, which also rewards selfishness like capitalism?
The main reason why capitalism has proliferated is because capitalists slaughtered everyone who opposed it at first. Millions killed across all of Europe, simply for defending their homes and common land from being taken by the Church and aristocracy.
After resistance was crushed, and people no longer owned anything, they had no choice but to work as slaves for capitalists. Ever since then, they have constantly been pitting us against each other, and we've had no choice but to play their game, since otherwise it's homelessness or death.
People tend to be a whole lot less selfish if they don't need to struggle for survival, and if they're not brainwashed into thinking it has to be this way from early childhood.
In every single study and poll, results consistently show that close to nobody supports capitalism, and nearly everyone is perfectly willing to share fairly, so that we can all live well.
Selfishness is not human nature. At least not for the majority of people. Cooperation, sharing, and helping others are. It might not be obvious, because capitalists have been forcefully beating it out of us for the last 500 years.
But it doesn't matter. Capitalists hold all the power, as they've always had, and will sooner die than let any meaningful change take place. Governments would rather order the military to shoot protesters than listen to any anti-capitalist points.
We're not allowed to question anything about capitalism. It's the worst, most destructive religion anyone has ever come up with and forced onto others, built on the most asinine dogmas possible.
That all is alleviated by a decent social support though. I have a kid and after losing a job last year I collected state benefits, he still went to school and nothing changed about insurance. Sure there was less money but still enough.
Idk how to tell you but everyone around me is so poor that if I fall there's nothing to catch me at all... Hell, there's borrowed money I fully expect to never get back too... I'm sure I'm not the only one in this situation
Some of it is alleviated. A social support net will arrest your fall if something unfortunate happens (like losing a job), but you still can't just walk away from it all if you so choose.
What? Why?
There are millions and millions of people walking away from their families, dependants, circumstances is life, ever day.
It's hard, all right, but just like with anything you will care about.
There's a specific class of people that walk away from their children -- those people are called deadbeats.
So... Being called names is the biggest problem? You're walking away - so walk on.
Most people would feel bad causing their family to fall apart and inflicting trauma on their children, I think that is more motivating than name calling.
Doesnt the government of most countries come after a person if that person accidentally produces a child and then doesnt oay child support? Thats what Ive seen before but maybe Im wrong...
ALSO the right to give a child up to adoption is questionable in most countries too.
That's not what the post is about though.
It was about how having kids "traps you in the system". You need to work and so on so you can take care of your kids. Sure you can just abandon them, but most people don't want to make their kids suffer and feel obligation to raise them either morally or legally. Therefore they are stuck doing a job and having a life they wouldn't necessarily want if they hadn't had kids. They're not literally "trapped" like someone isn't literally stuck in prison, they can escape if they are creative or lucky enough.
Ummm no? Doesnt the government of most countries come after a person if that person accidentally produces a child and then doesnt oay child support? Thats what Ive seen before but maybe Im wrong...
ALSO the right to give a child up to adoption is questionable in most countries too.
Its not the name calling its just that legally speaking the government and their bribed mercenary piggies will go out of their way to hunt you, tax you, and kill you if do choose to become a deadbeat.
It's one form of entrapment but in this economy even being childfree im living paycheck to paycheck
Yeah being a "dink" or even just solo and childless/free used to be a ticket to easy street, now it's just regular street.
Hey I'm still enjoying solo leveling for the most part.
Exactly, and it makes the idea of “having children” sound even more absurd.
I feel as if this further justifies universal access to voluntary birth control, abortions, and sterilizations globally.
Because all because someone and their parrtner(s) have a breeding kink that doesnt mean thatt they have the time, psyche , or money to raise a child. Esoecially in today's world where living paycheque to paycheque is the default for most people. So that means all humans have gained the right to delay producing children , even forever, cause how do we know if things will improve economically? Things probably wont improve. The majority of humanity has seemed to be OK with this current 'paycheque-to-paycheque' status quo for decades....so....
🫂Same. I thought it would be different lool 😅🫂
the Darwinist system
You were already trapped in it at birth. Your opinion on the matter was not sought, your consent (or lack thereof) is of no consequence. There is no escape from the trap, and only one way out regardless of the choices you make while inside the trap (the way out is not an escape, it is merely springing the trap early).
The only action that really matters, the only choice you can make that has any consequence, is how you treat the other souls you meet in the trap while you're there.
Soul Trap was a 70s TV show, or a spell in a video game?
Actually it is a sub-sub-genre of hip-hop featuring mostly remixes of Ella and 'Retha.
Soul Train is the one I remember.
See also: aging parents, marriage, real estate, college education, car payments. Like, this person is hyperfocused on children, but any commitment of any kind comes with sacrifices and restriction unless you're endlessly wealthy.
You can walk away from every single one of those things. Aging parents aren't your responsibility (if they are, there's something deeply wrong with how they lived their lives). Marriages can be annulled. You can drop out of college and sell the car. All of those things can be reversed to a reasonable degree.
You can't walk away from your kids under any circumstances (aside from giving them up for adoption, which still doesn't exactly sever their connection to you or your responsibility towards them) -- they exist entirely and completely because you desired it to be so.
Every state in the US has a safe-haven law on the books. You can drop a baby off at nearly any firestation, sometimes in completely anonymous baby boxes, and absolve yourself of responsibility. It's literally easier to get rid of a child than it is student loan debt.
This is like the first 3 days after birth and we are also talking emotional connection that you don't have to the car.
What is even the point of your comment? Kids make life much more difficult is not a hot take at all.
Just because it's technically possible – like, for example, murdering one's abuser is an option – doesn't mean it's something that most parents would be willing to consider. There's your bond with your child, there's empathy, there's guilt, there's family and friends judging you, and potentially cutting you off if you decide to do it, ... I'm sure there's places in the world where it's worse, or straight up illegal.
Yes, which circles back to my initial point: all the things I listed and more "trap" you in the same way. The emotions and repercussions you describe also apply to plenty of things beyond caring for a child. Parenthood is not the unique trap that OP's post implies.
OP states the entrapment of "people depending on you" which is uniquely different from the other things you've mentioned. With aging parents, it depends on the culture and retirement support given by the state, but then again, they brought you into this world, not the other way around. With a partner, I could see a case being made if said partner is disabled. But with kids, you are (typically) the reason they're here.
...but thats states in the usa ...
WHAT ABOUT OTHER COUNTRIES?! What about certain municipalities in other countries thst have completely dofferent laws?!
Remember, this is the internet. The US is the only country. /s
Damn. Truth.
I don't agree with this at all. People have problems and need help all the time without it being all their fault. If they didn't, there would be almost no homeless people, maybe zero.
Yes, thank you!
There's a definite overlap in this community of people that don't want kids and people that were traumatized by their parents. I totally get that. It seems like some of them also get so fixated on "parent bad" that they paint everyone with the same experience they've had.
That's not even remotely what I said. I said they're not your responsibility and you can indeed walk away from them should you choose to because you had no hand in their existence. You can choose to help them or care for them but that is 100% a conscious choice on your end, you are under zero actual obligation to do so.
This world view is very self-centered, and also inconsistent.
Inconsistent: Your argument is essentially, "you can abandon your aging parents, but you can't abandon a child." False. If you're okay with abandoning aging parents, why not leave a child up for adoption? Both are, quite frankly, gross concepts
Self-centered: Humans are social creatures, and part of being social is community. And I mean IRL community. For many that community include immediate and extended family. For others, it's found family. Either way, yes, a person can "walk away", and there are consequences. Also, I'm taking care of my mom. She's 85. If I abandon her, she'll be put in a home, and all of her things become property of the state. So, to a degree, she is my responsibility, as well as my other siblings. If we abandon her, her community will help, but not to the degree that she could maintain her independence and quality of life. And it would break her heart. Is there something wrong with how she lived her life?
I can't tell if you're just young, or very socially isolated, or both. Yes children bog a person down, shackle them to a way of life that allows the child to (hopefully) thrive. So do other things. If a person is so isolated they can pull up stakes and go with a snap of their fingers that person is deeply wrong with how their living their life.
Feel like the whole parent thing here you're giving is also naive, as it's assuming a decent relationship with the parents.
Yes, I assume most people have at least a nominally healthy relationship with their parents. Perhaps that's naive. I don't assume everyone does, but even with found family a healthy balance includes older parental/Uncle/Aunt type figures that get older and sometimes need help.
My greater point is that no
manperson is an island. We are (almost) all anchored by various social responsibilities. Those ties that bind also add richness and variety to life...Ummm no. If I were to abuse someone or something , even a pet, why in the fuck would I expect 'sOcIal RepSonSibIlTiEs' to keeo them connected to me? Abuse is a choice. By making the choice to abuse someone or soemthing a person has lost all rights to be tied to that thing. Ive burnt The Social Contract and now must fave the consequences. Its not hard to just not be an asshole and to just use a little critical thinking and little empathy.
Abuse and abusers adds no 'richness' to life. If anything they destroy life , and those abusers probably spent most of their life doing what IOF soldiers are currently doing in Palestine or what american marines did in Iran and Afghanistan. Do people like this add 'richness' to anyone's life in your opinion? Lool!
Some people are forced to become an island temporarily to escape abuse and my condolences to all those who have been abused 🫂
I'm sorry, what? When did abuse ever come up? I think you might be way inside your own head there. The entire point of found family is when your birth parents are either dead or abusive and you've gone no contact. Where in my reply did I say you have to stay with abusers? What are you even talking about? You're reading my reply from the perspective of an abusive parent. I'm talking about how decent people always are connected to others. There is some seriously toxic projection going on in this thread
Also, often if someone says another person "probably" does something, without evidence, their argument is invalid. Go touch grass, friend, and think about something positive. You definitely need it
....Lol im toching grass right now and it was wet . Now my socks are wet too
Having children is a choice, and you agree to be responsible for them.
Being born is not.
Being raped and forced to give birth isn't a choice.
Sorry, I haven't considered such a possibility.
That's an edge case (and people manage to "lose" unwanted pregnancies all the time)
In general, serious commitments of any kind limit your life choices. "Entrapment" is when someone else tricks you into it.
Yeah, but she's right in that employers definitely exploit that sometimes. They know you can't just walk away from a raw deal on a whim because while you may be willing to risk yourself, they're keenly aware that most aren't willing to risk their children's food and shelter
and healthcare.
This is only true in backwater countries though...
yeah, backwater shit all over
Thank you. Every choice in life limits other choices. Yes when you have children, you then have to care for them. What lifestyle you must live is up to you though. The ones that must keep up with whoever is the 'in group' are always going to have a harder time than those to learn to go for what they really want and need in life and not what a TikTok tells them they do.
Op didn't say "entrapment," but you are correct that word has a different meaning.
By OP I mean the poster of this lemmy thread with the headline, "Entrapment seems about right," not the creator of the tweet.
Now you see why billionaire capitalists want as many people to have children as possible.
They want slaves by any means necessary.
I watched the movie Babes with my wife last night, and it perfectly encapsulated this tweet.
And I surprisingly enjoyed it despite being childfree myself. It didn't gloss over the shity parts of parenthood like most movies do, and it was honest about how much it can suck.
The problem is as /u/[email protected] pointed out, an issue of capitalism. The movie unfortunately and unsurprisingly didn't address that, it sort or just carried on with the status quo assumption that the current situation and system doesn't need replaced. That's the only bit I didn't enjoy.
IMO the best replacement system I've seen proposed is the Aandrisk system of hatch/feather/house families from Becky Chamber's "The Long Way to a Small, Angry Planet" series.
For those unfamiliar, Aandrisks are humanoid reptiles with feathers for hair, and they divide their lives into three sections, hatch family, feather family, and house family.
Everyone is "born" as hatchling, being raised in groups of a dozen or two, in hatch families. They aren't really considered people until they are physically mature. Generally they aren't actually siblings, but instead come from donated eggs.
Once they mature they leave to go form feather families. These basically are polycules of people in their 20s to late 30s that are there for community, sexual relations, and to explore the world. They don't raise kids, they live their life and gain experience. Any offspring they do produce gets dropped off at a house family.
House families are older groups, often formed from old feather families who are looking to settle down and stabilize. They take in eggs from feather families and raise them to maturity.
It's got an elegance we are very much lacking in humans, especially with capitalism being in the mix.
Human communes kind of worked this way in the past.
Outside of my crippling OCD, I'd probably really love living in a commune.
Sorry for your OCD but to be completely honest I dont see how humanity can improve our current living situation without living in communes of some sort.
we currently live in large cities, large municipalities, and large countries where most people barely know eacj other and barely feel anything for each other . We are ruled by police officers, bribed politicians and multimillionaaires, multimillionaires who could launch nukes to eradicate 99% of the population of species on Earth at a moments notice. And on top of that we work longer hours these days than most of our ancestors ever did work and at a moment's notice any of us could lose our jobs leading to homelessness or the loss of our social standing or the los of our loved ones.... This is throoguhly divorced from the original style of livong that humans used to have back when our ancestors started creating these same municipalities a nd social communities. But humans are social creatures - most humans need a 'tribe' of some sort that they can defend, work for, work with, love, and be loved by. Why would we firther divorce our species from the original forms of communitiy which humanity found to be so beneficial back then. Humans spent easily 95% of of our species existence living in small tribes, small communes and small villages. Such a lifestyle and such colmunities are practically in our blood at this point.
What I think is that if yoy did ever live in a tribe you could call your own maybe theyd help you with living a lifestyle that would help you to treat your OCD or theyd craft their lifestyles in ways to help you and them communicate and spend time together even with your OCD. Hopefully 🫂
I wish you and all of us the best on this journey forward cause what we have today just isnt working for most people as far as Im concened.
I fully agree with you. Not just about needing communes for the society structure, but also for the culture and mindset of community and mutual well being.
I think the closest most people tend to get to living in a tribe/walkable community is living in college dorms. And that actually worked out really well for me for the most part. The critical thing for me was having my own space to myself to retreat to that is clean to my standards. It's in slight contradiction to the anarchist philosophy I'd like to see humanity move towards.
If the offspring are dropped off at house families, where do the babies at hatch families come from?
It's the same family, but called differently depending on perspective.
If you were just "born", it's your hatchling family, if you're in the last third of your life, it's your house family.
More information if you'd like: https://wayfarers.fandom.com/wiki/Aandrisk
OH. That makes sense then. Neat idea op.
Wait until she discovers school loans or taxes.
Life carries with it a life sentence..
This is so true. I was literally just thinking about this in regard to feeling shackled to an unhappy lifestyle because obligations to my children's lifestyle encroach on my own freedom. I love my kids, but I'd never give anybody a hard time for choosing to not have kids of their own. Having kids is without a doubt a big personal sacrifice with a long commitment.
Well, yeah. If there's an entire section for it at Walmart, it's not about you.
Speak for yourself. I’m a vacuum cleaner.
I'm sure you make your partner very happy when you suck blow and get thrown in the closet 😉
Its an old yo mama joke.
Contraceptive section? 😆
I'll be honest. Never been to a Walmart.
But surely there isn't a section for that. Surely it's in the "Health" section, not with it own sign dangling from the roof.
"Excuse me? Can you point me to the Don't Fuck Up While Horny section?"
"Sure. See the signs? 40 aisles that way, after Humming Fish Bowls, you can't miss it. HUGE Condom Man mascot."
What constitutes a "section"? There are definitely signs in stores that say "family planning" and there's several items grouped together with guaranteed shelf space. This is true in Walmart and most any other stores that carry products like that.
Nope.
Been to and lived in many countries on this planet.
These things are usually just a few shelves in a general health area. Depending on the country, kind of hdden in a way to not draw attention to the customer wanting to buy magnums or the day after pill.
Ongoing contraception is usually just picked up from the pharmacy or delivered.
Okay you're just wrong and didn't even engage with what I said. They label those sections in the US commonly, maybe usually, but I'm not arguing about something this stupid so have fun ✌️
Sorry for not fully engaging about this topic and referring to world experiences instead.
Clearly I'm not taking this seriously enough for you, and I apologise.
Oh, wait. No, you got it in the end. Let's be friends.
I can say for certainty that I'm still in the US because of my kids. The cost of emigrating with children is just too much without going full refugee.
Same could be said about mortgages and loans. Yeeees, take the loan for the big house. Now you are trapped in the grind-spiral and need to work your ass off
Owning property is not a trap unless the property is worthless.
The person you rent it to is trapped.
You don't own the property. The bank does.
Personal freedom always only really was available for criminals and vagabonds. Maybe royalty and stuff as well but I think they were more or less trapped in the system as well with what they were allowed to do or how to behave.
My point is for most of human history survival and safety naturally was way more important than personal freedom, which actually lead to the development of all the systems we have in place now and which only now made it possible to experience this personal freedom to begin with which of course you lose when another person is completely dependent of you.
So having personal freedom really is something special and luxurious and not the default state which you have to give up for kids. It's more like you have to give up having kids to have the possibility of personal freedom (but even then most people don't have or had it).
I prefer renegade.
The jig is up, the news is out, they finally found me!
I might say it's just a luxury of youth. Get older and even being a criminal or a vagabond still gets expensive. Eventually, it's not the kids that weigh you down. It's your own old bones.
The only real "liberation" is death. And there's no fun in that.
No kids, but with no guts or financial sense I'm as trapped as if I had kids. I quit my job and spent two years draining my savings and barely traveled or lived any kind of interesting life. I got a new job that started at 40% of what I made at the job I quit, moved back in with my parents and have gotten addicted to not paying rent. I could move out and live a life of poverty or continue to not spend $2k/month on rent and live fairly luxuriously. I'm nearing 50, never married. My married friends are getting near empty nest status but they understandably want to spend time with their spouses. I'm 5 years away from being eligible for "senior living" where I'll relive my 20s smoking bowls and playing video games with my friends.
Or stick around, grant the parents a graceful exit, then inherit the house?
I'm not in a hurry to get turned down by old ladies. I won't inherit the house, it'll be sold and the proceeds split with my brother. My parents are passing 80 and are on a health kick doing youtube calisthenics and homeopathic remedies with the hope of living to 100.
Dealing with the school system alone is awful.
I get down voted a lot on this subject but people really have no idea what goes on in schools. It's like I had teachers tell me don't get into teaching, I'm stubborn, and well yeah they were right. In an ideal world, it would be great. The reality is you have good days and you have the where's the 4L bottle of vodka that was posted today.
The only people who seem to like the school system are the administrators and board members. Everybody else from the students to the parents to the teachers finds it terrible.
I can easily agree. The teachers lounge is a interesting place. It really changes your perspective.
Well yes. Any responsibility will take priority over other things.
And if you can't take care of your kids or protect them
The billionaires will just kidnap and eat them
God I hate this timeline with a blind rage
Fosters aren't cannibals, well, most of them at least. What they will do is kidnap them and place them with a foster family who is being paid to turn your child into a profitable
slaveasset for capitalism.I don't need a kid to feel this way. I have myself and my own goals to worry about.
Just a rat in a cage...
People JUST realize this?
So too when you get older. Around 35, life starts hurting for seeming no reason.
Yep, that's about when life takes the gloves off and starts kicking you in the nuts/muffin just for fun.
This is also why they want teenagers getting pregnant. Gotta keep the slaves motivated
Better systems don't tie healthcare to jobs, so that's one stressor that better places don't have, that threat held over people. They also have paid leave from work and lower cost childcare. Their populations can still decline but they will adapt to manage it and people are happier there. Any chance for those improvements are with the Dem platform and a sustained supermajority, it only gets worse with maga.
Yeah universal healthcare and affordable childcare would unlock huge amounts of productivity, but the fact that our oligarchs haven't implemented those things says it's not actually about productivity, like they claim. It's about control.
Survival is necessary to have freedom, unless you are seeking freedom from life.
And people seem to be able to be miserable in any life. A steady paycheck certainly helps me be less miserable, and unless you are a trust fund baby I don't see how you are going to go have so many adventures without a source of income.
Or a car
Yep. Fuck those too
I know people who pay more for their car subscription than I do for my mortgage.
What is a car subscription?
When people pay every month to own a car.
When people pay every month to
own a carbe an idiot.Her: "Hey bae, naughty idea! lets do it in your ferarri!"
"...uhh....ya ... MY ferarri. But we will have to have like dry, no-movement sex . No liquids or scratches can get anywhere on the interior at all or else the monthly cost will go up." 😋👍🏻
Her: "...monthly cost wot?"
Not even a Ferrari, just some boring half SUV thing with a shitload of dumb accessories. Then in a few years they get another one because they can't afford to pay it off completely but they can afford to pay every month forever.
Responsibility is entrapment yes. It's a choice and trade off that some people make, some know about the terms and conditions beforehand some don't
But have you considered generational wealth
Have you considered genes are bunk
I'm saving for money before I even try to have a family. I have savings but I am saving for more.
This is what it means to be responsible. It's no longer just about you, but something more. Some people find that suffocating. Others find it liberating.
Very true, and in a pretty surprising turn, most folks really only know how they respond once they get there.
But to the point, the biggest cause of variance between the two is just available resources.
Responsibilityspans the dial between powerful lived experience of wholesome capability and crippling mortal burden from which no escape but death is available. I'd say that dial is twisted more by support / resources / precarity than by individual characteristics, certainly more than an individual's willingness to "rise to the occasion" or similar.Apparently there are people here who think obvious jokes are real. Hello tinfoil hats my old friends
Oh for fuck's sake, this is my first time seeing a post from this community - are you guys usually that unhinged or what?
It's not like it was designed with that as the end goal, but that is exactly how it functions.
They're not wrong though. Did you see that Simpsons episode as to why there isn't any picture of Maggie in their family photo album? Because it's "do it for her".
"Having kids traps you!" is right in line with the attitude of the community.
That's just how certain people think. Social attachments, legal obligations, and interpersonal debts are all engineered plots to ruin your carefree life.
I'm generally fine hearing people like this say they don't want kids. I would not want that kind of person as a parent.
They would become parents because they are childfree?
So close. What traps us in the system is locked real estate. We are not owners of the land anymore, means we cant grow our own crops, build our own houses from our own resources. This means we are locked in a market that can abuse us.
Getting and raising children always was a village effort. But the village long gone and replaced by this corrupt system where we prefer to diabolize children over rioting.
Ain't nobody diabolizing children. We're railing against the system that demands everyone make more wage slaves to feed it.
Counter offer, multigenerational homes. Let the kids stay at home for their entire lives if they want to. They can start paying a bit towards the bills once they are adults.
Oh yeah and a house with more than 2 adults working, especially once the mortgage is paid off? You could work 1 day a week each and have plenty of money.
I suppose as your kids get partners if half move out and half move in its sustainable there too. Keep at it and build up some intergenerational wealth?
Why can't people see that this community and every post in it is a reaction to a lifetime of being pressured into having kids? I have seen zero posts here and very few comments here which cannot be easily explained by that dynamic.
You don't have to choose to see any sentiment less than neutral when it comes to kids as hatred toward kids. In fact out of every time a child themselves bothered me, I blamed the parents 99% of the time for standing there and watching their child behave shittily
If you feel trapped by kids just wait till you're old, frail and in the care system.
See thats another reason why i don't have kids, its an mlm. After i am done with the hamsterwheel, my kids can jump in and would be caught up in it to care for me? No thanks.
People working with the old know very well that having kids will not guarantee you actual help when you are old, which often is just dew to circumstance and not even malice.
There are some positives to having kids, most of them emotional but they are objectivly a very bad deal in all other aspects.
And if you think that is a good reason to have kids you should never be even close to one. The only worse reason I could imagine is "their kidneys will be compatible when I need one"
I didn't mention kids though did I, that is your own assumption of what I meant.
My comment is on entering a "system" which you feel entrapped by. Old age, unless you are very lucky is going to lead to the exact same result as this person is bemoaning about parenthood. The irony being you often enter a kid like state yourself, dependent on others turning up for you.
But if you want to know, I agree that you should not have the kids with the expectation they are going to have to care for you.
Sounds a little selfish to me.
Want your rights but don't want your obligation seems like failure on your part, not the system.
Congratulations on completely missing the point of the post