You don't get rid of tipping culture by fucking over the people that need money the most.
The customer chose to tell OOP they deserve the bare minimum for their labor, despite clearly having money to blow. They deserved it. You reap what you sow.
As someone who actually makes the food I think drivers shouln't get tips but instead should be paid more. They should also have full vehicle maintenance covered while driving for work too. The whole delivery service thing is a grift that is eroding the resturaunt industry hard. If it wasn't for VC money it wouldn't even be feasable. Things will need to change soon
Tipping culture is bullshit anyway. If you run a business where you can't afford to pay your employees enough without going out of business, then your business shouldn't exist.
This is untrue. Margins for restaurants are razor-thin. They could only raise wages and eliminate the need for tips by raising prices, but then people wouldn't eat there because everywhere else looks cheaper. Because customers are dumb and don't think about how much tips cost, just what the menu price says.
If the restaurant doesn't serve the same food as their neighbor, why would they lose money to them? And if the restaurant DOES serve the same food as their neighbour, they are fucking stupid.
A common example though: A McDonalds Big Mac costs costs about $5.99 in , in Denmark it costs about $7. But in Denmark the worker is paid a minimum of $21. On top of that, they get paid maternity/paternity leave. The worker pays 2% of their pay into their pension fund, while the restaurant pays 11%. They get paid sickleave, they get 6 weeks of fully paid vacation per year. I could go on and on about workers rights that cost a lot of money for a business, but that somehow doesn't mean they have to raise prices.
If that's possible for pretty much the same price of a burger, then the margins aren't really as thin as you've been led to believe, but they make a hell of a lot more money by making you believe their lies.
Tipping culture is bullshit. But if somebody doesn’t want to participate in tipping culture, they should refuse to patronize businesses that do participate in it. Somebody who stiffs people that depend on tips to make a living isn’t doing anything except being an asshole
I think all tipped staff should instead be paid livable wage, but still be allowed to collect tips. Tipping should be something you do to flirt with the waitress or reward a team that did a really outstanding job
In Germany it's pretty common to tip a bit, even if not nearly as much as in the US. I wouldn't know what to tip for a 300€ order though because... What the fuck, did they order cocaine?
Yeah you see this is why we're calling tip culture toxic, if it makes you unable to appreciate someone doing you a favour, no matter how small, you are the problem, not the others with their weird "minimal wage actually sufficient to live" society. Most often, we tip 1 or 2 euros to our waiter if we enjoyed our meal, as a small thank you, and because we know they can otherwise get paid a true living wage just from the price we paid in the first place.
No fuck them I say. They cannot even be bothered to tip in € when they come here. If I ever visit their godforsaken land again I will tip them in € out of spite
I hear this a lot, but it doesn't seem true anymore. Every country I go to in Europe, tipping culture is creeping in and more expected in small amounts.
In many cases, yes. But when it comes to delivery services like this that has a history of underpaying and bad working conditions it just makes sense to tip IMO, and absolutely do it in hand and not via the app or whatever. I very rarely order food, and when I do I always try to stay clear of these kinds of delivery services. But it's often hard to so, and when there's no other option I always choose something that has a deal and then give the difference to what it would have been directly to the delivery person (not sure what the right word here is).
About a month ago I was at my moms place with my half brother and the local delivery app, foodora, had a 40% deal for any order from our favourite pizzeria so that was an obvious choice, when I gave the 40% of the total to the delivery person they almost started crying and that just felt so damn good. It absolutely sucks that this situation even happened, they should be paid more and have way better working conditions etc. but we all do what little we can with the reality we're in. I made some actual difference for someone and I'll take that.
Yeah, random stuff happens and normal people don't assume something like a pregnant mistress.
One time someone left a few roses under my windshield at work on valentine's day. I assume someone mistook my car for someone else's, not that I had some secret admirer who wanted to do a pointlessly anonymous gesture.
One time someone let out the air from one of my tires overnight in my driveway, for no apparent reason and it caused me mild annoyance.
Anyway, fake internet story for fake internet points.
Accept an order (or don't if you don't feel like working)-> Pickup the order you didn't have to pack-> Deliver food & sometimes have 0 interaction with customer -> Hope for tip 🤞🏼🤞🏼🤞🏼
I've worked for tips before. I can relate to the anger of the delivery driver but an Uber Eats job seems so simple that it's almost insulting to the customer that a tip is even getting discussed. P.S. I do tip
You're wrong, but it's understandable. The key point you're getting wrong is: You make money from a job.
The pay for most of the assignments you get from DD or UE is usually not enough to cover fuel, let alone maintenance on your vehicle. Certainly less than minimum wage for your time. Which is legal for them to do, because you are a contractor, paid per job and not per hour. If the customer doesn't tip, you are earning less than minimum wage at best. In many cases, you're actually paying to work, but you're forced to take these unprofitable orders just to maintain your rating and keep getting assignments. (In my area, drivers call this "eating shit")
At best, you can take about 6 assignments an hour. To net minimum wage, you need at least three of them to tip well. When a restaurant doesn't bother to start preparing the order until you arrive, the time you waste waiting is 2-3 orders. If any of the remaining orders that hour don't tip, you're below minimum wage.
It is a shitty, exploitative service that nobody should be using. If you are going to use it, be aware that the service is taking everything you're paying, and completely shafting your driver.
Client does not need to be aware of how much each worker in the chain earns. He is aware of the price he is buying the food.
Same as delivery guy is aware of money he gets from the job. If he doesn't like the money, he should not take the job.
Tips are totally optional bonus.
A client is the person a contractor works for. The only client involved is the service itself, as the driver is a contractor.
The person making the purchase is a customer, not a client.
Ideally, you would be right. The customer should not be involved in the business relationship between the driver and the service. However, this is quite obviously not an ideal situation.
With employed waitstaff, tips are, technically, a bonus. A waitress who does not receive enough tips to put herself over minimum wage is entitled to extra pay to reach that point. Legally, this waitress is "adequately" compensated for her time, regardless of tips.
Unlike employed waitstaff, there is no provision to ensure this driver is compensated for their labor. There is no provision to ensure they are reimbursed for their actual expenses. The driver is often asked to subsidize certain customers, by accepting compensation that is less than minimum wage, and even at less than actual cost. They are often asked to pay to work.
Employees are protected by labor laws. When a group of employees decides to demand better pay, their collective action is explicitly protected.
When contractors do the same, their collective action violates anti-trust laws. They are guilty of collusion and price fixing.
The services have found a legal loophole to evade minimum wage and labor protections, and they are using it to exploit drivers.
The customer benefits from this. The customer is complicit in the exploitation. Ignorance does not negate their complicity.
(You should also know that if you do tip well, the services reduce their base pay further, effectively capturing part of your tip to the driver. They are exploiting you, too.)
Again, nobody should be using these services. They are bad for everyone. The only ethical way to use them is to tip sufficiently to ensure the driver's pay exceeds minimum wage.
They make money... When a customer tips. The tip is, effectively, the only money they actually make. It's not how it should be, but it is how it actually is.
When every customer tips well, and nobody introduces delays to slow your hustle, it's a fairly lucrative job. When customers think tips are "optional" and stores don't actually start working on an order until you arrive, it's a shit job.
It's pretty much the same for our employed waitstaff. Your tips are paid out to you on the day you earn them. Your base wages are paid out weekly or biweekly. You keep 100% of your tips, but your employer is required to withhold income taxes from your base pay. If you make enough in tips, withholding is all of your base pay. You receive a pay stub where nearly 100% of your pay has been withheld and sent to the IRS for income taxes. Tips are, effectively, the only money you actually take home.
This may be the reality, but in theory the answer is for people to say "fuck working for these asshats if we are stuck at the mercy of caprcious users tipping".
I would argue there is no ethical way to use them.
You don't have to convince me. I agree with you. These services are profoundly scummy and exploitative. They are almost as greedy as employers have become with your time.
I did. I'm a blacksmith. I found a niche where customers are appreciative of labor, and I fill that niche. The two seasons I relied on DD for flexible income are well in the past.
The reality is that every job that requires a human to perform it, if worked "full time", should fully support a human's basic needs, including housing, and medical coverage. Every full-time worker should be earning gainful wages.
That isn't happening here.
These services should either be paying workers adequately, or they should not exist.
Customers should recognize that they are the beneficiaries of these exploitative conditions. Pretending that they are not complicit is simply unethical and immoral.
I think the tipping should be dealt away with. Instead something like: vehicle value, insurance cost, vehicle depreciation, maintenance, fuel costs, idle vehicle use time, "acts of god"--traffic accident delays, unexpected failures (wrong orders basically); should be factored into the pay instead of hoping for tips.
Then again none of this would exist if that was done.
I think we in a way are headed there. Bartering and trading have always been a thing, money is an exchange medium. I got tipped a few grams of coke for changing the brakes on a friends car, I didn't ask for any money and was doing a favor lol
Now, I just elect to not order any delivery at all. There is a 15% service fee, a delivery fee, AND food markup because they charge restaurant like 30%.
I am not sure how is this a fair deal. The guy ordering $300 worth of food probably already paid $60-$100 to get his food. This is already way higher than any traditional delivery service would ask for. The price tag just no longer makes sense for me.
Now there's a pay ~$5 extra option to have your order delivered first. I doubt that goes to the driver. I tip pretty well when I do order but I've been getting barely warm food for awhile. Once I did tip less and just pay the $5 fee to get my food faster. Just more enshittifaction.
They don't know the tip until after the delivery. I've had a driver be like "they're making me wait to pick this up, please add a tip for extra time" (yeah ok buddy) I had already put a large tip on the delivery. I really wanted to remove it after the driver pulled that shit though.
Imagine being single and actively casually dating and having this just run in your head for the rest of your life. Never knowing if someone is going to show up to your door and introduce you as the parent. I think part of the terrorism is that it'd affect everything, and be especially hainious if you want to be a parent. Youd have to tell future potential long term partners that there may be a child out there. I think might be one of the most long term cognitohazard pranks I've seen
And that 1% will eat you alive. Fuck Uber Eats for how they pay their drivers, but fuck that guy. Ordering $300 of food and not even kicking a few bucks to the person delivering it, knowing full well that Uber pays their drivers like shit, is a trash move.
Instead of this moronic "voluntary" expectation, let's all save thousands of hours of arguments, posts, and complaints from everyone involved and add 20% to the bill for the worker done and done.
Sometimes you don't want to tip? No shit. I don't want to tip. I don't even want to pay. But I do it.
Let's all do what we want, good idea, everything is free and nobody works and we can just run through the woods and frolic which sounds like a good idea until you get hungry
No no no, see here we add 7 dollars for "delivery" and as you would correctly assume, that goes directly to the CEO's 4th yacht.
Then we shame the customer into dropping another 15 or 20%.
I've recently just stopped tipping for any company that puts a fake delivery fee in their subtotal (or outright stop ordering from them when possible).
I worked for a place that did this, i.e. added a delivery surcharge which the house kept. I discovered that this is, in fact, illegal in my state unless it is disclosed in writing. Which it wasn't.
When we had a new point of sale system installed, as our restaurant's resident tech person I naturally adjusted the such that were were in compliance with the law and delivery surcharges were pooled with the employees' tips.
The problem is the delivery companies are abusing the definition of “tip” and how they pay their drivers. I used to drive deliveries for DoorDash and they typically only pay $1.50-2.50 per delivery, despite charging $6-8 for a delivery fee, on top of prices typically being 30% higher than the menu in the restaurant. As a driver, the rule of thumb is typically that you shouldn’t take a job paying less than $1/mile. So the rest of the money for the driver comes from the “tip”. A tip is supposed to be a bonus reward for good service, but the reality of the situation on these delivery services is that it’s just the rest of the delivery fee to the driver. The delivery companies know if they list it as an actual delivery fee they’ll lose customers because some customers will feel like the fees become too excessive. So instead they exploit inexperienced drivers into taking orders thinking they’ll get a tip later, but often end up with nothing. And customers who think the tip is actually a tip according to the original definition and voluntary often end up with bad service because experienced drivers will pass on the deliveries, meaning they sit and sit, with food getting cold while the delivery service eventually starts offering to increase the pay in 25¢ increments after a certain number of rejections. Sometimes orders will sit for a couple hours before someone will finally take the order. This is still bad for the drivers, because the customers will often leave them a bad review, blaming the driver for the order taking so long to arrive. The driver doesn’t know what part is “tip” until the delivery is complete.
The reviews are another bad system. Historically people think of a 5-star rating system goes from 1 star being terrible, two being below average, three being average, four being above average, and five being excellent. However, rating systems often rank anything below five stars as bad. So people will leave a four star review thinking that’s good but as far as the company is concerned is bad. IIRC DoorDash drops any driver with a rating below 4.7. And we see this problem a lot of places online: product reviews on shops, online business reviews, even hotels where 3 stars was traditionally decent now see that as bad.
This. And at best, they can get about 6 orders per hour. That's about 12-24 miles on their odometer, which is $3-6 worth of gasoline in city traffic. At best, they net $6 to $9/hr before tips.
Oh, and remember: Contractors, not employees. They are paid per job, not per hour. There is no requirement for the service to ensure they receive at least minimum wage. On some shifts, drivers can expend more in gas than they earn.
I mean I guess not but like I think it is absolutely possible that at some point in your life, you might spend $300, or perhaps someone else's $300 (e.g. your employer) to get catering.
If it was my employer then would I even be allowed to give a tip?
I mean it depends on your employer. But anecdotally, yes, business and corporate purchasers usually did tip us, although nowhere near the usual 10-20% of the price expected of smaller purchases. Actually, they would often tip in advance as part of a credit card payment, so it would be the person with decision-making authority (i.e. "the boss") setting the tip. (Cash tips were quietly preferred but I was always thankful for any tips.)
Which then leaves an interesting idea. Why 20% tip instead of 20% more food?
Reputation. Makes your company look bad if you don't tip at all.
If they are paying I would probably spend what ever I can to max out the limit.
I mean if you're trying to "max out" some limit, then simply max out (limit)/(100% + (tip)%) with (tip) > 0 and give the driver (limit), and your employer should understand what you're doing. I would fix (tip) with my employer before I set up the order. Or, tip out of your own pocket.
UK for perspective but I have heard enough business owners asking how to avoid paying tax while making tips appear mandatory (illegal) to have no respect for them.
Nah I don't have any respect for business owners either lol, petty capitalists are still capitalists and therefore need to be smashed like capitalists. I'm and I worked in food service for seven years. Tipping culture is ingrained enough here, and legally enshrined, that even petty capitalists tip as a social expectation.
Like this is literally what I wanted when I worked in pizza delivery for seven years, literally just do pickup if you can't afford to tip. And tbh I don't order delivery anymore for that exact reason.
I mean okay, but don't point your frustration at the proletarians who rely on your tips to survive. Like yeah tipping culture is bullshit, but it's not imposed by your servers and delivery drivers; it's imposed by capitalists and their demonic governments. We'd rather just get a living wage right out the gate, but that's literally not an option.
Then you get more crying about how much the hospitality sector is struggling
Not our fault. Not your fault either. It's the fault of the capitalists who are ruining our world and pitting us against each other.
I stopped eating outside years ago cause it's all shit.
Having said that -
don't point your frustration at the proletarians
So why are you doing exactly that?
Tip is meant as extra on a job done well behind expectations. Are you not aware of it?
The fact that is composes most of your wages is not the fault of the Patreons coming to the establishment who are also required to pay ridiculously high prices on low quality food, and then also tip for the right to do so.
Not all people going to eat out have deep pockets, and trying to squeeze money because you feel entitled to it will only create antigonisem.
Take the fight against your employers and who ever owns them, instead of your fellow working class. The rest of us will probably be happy to join you and help you fight the good fight.
Otherwise, you are just helping the problem become entrenched deeper.
One last thing, what's so special about the driver, waiter and bartender that puts them in the tip-getting status? What about the cooks, busboys, cleaning, host/hostess etcetc
If the owner cannot pull in customers using the real price, which covers livable and decent and fair wages for all staff, they should not be in business, period.
don't point your frustration at the proletarians who rely on your tips to survive.
I'm not saying to never ever point your frustration at proletarians. Sometimes we are assholes. I am absolutely frustrated at proletarians who deliberately make both of two choices: (1) get food from restaurants, which is an unnecessary luxury one can choose to live without, and (2) choose not to subsidize the delivery driver's wage, which is unfortunately the social contract which has been imposed upon us. If you did only one of these things, I wouldn't care.
When I worked in food service, I worked there because it was literally all I could get. Most of us, for practical purposes, do not choose food service, because the other "choices" are misery and poverty (more than food service already entails). Hence why I said "don't point your frustration at the proletarians who rely on your tips to survive," because we lack the freedom to choose a better line of work. If you can afford to go out to eat, you can afford to tip; you have the freedom to not be a part of the situation. Even though we are both proletarians, within our class, there exist various economic disparities and other social hierarchies which we must be careful not to reinforce.
The fact that is composes most of your wages is not the fault of the Patreons coming to the establishment who are also required to pay ridiculously high prices on low quality food, and then also tip for the right to do so.
No, patrons literally do not have to go to restaurants.
Tip is meant as extra on a job done well behind expectations.
Not trying to be contentious but I have to say it: this is capitalist brainworms. This is how capitalists want us to think. This is their narrative, but it's not what is enshrined in law. What's enshrined in law is that you can legally refuse to pay a driver for a portion of their services.
One last thing, what's so special about the driver, waiter and bartender that puts them in the tip-getting status? What about the cooks, busboys, cleaning, host/hostess etcetc
Yeah I do not agree with the existence of tipping culture. It should be abolished. Unfortunately, tipping culture is legally enshrined in , so ignoring it before it is abolished is tantamount to withholding a driver's pay. Where I worked, drivers were paid less than inside staff to account for the fact that we got tips. This is an unacceptable practice, but it is enshrined in law. Everyone on this godforsaken planet deserves equal access to the fruits of labor.
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The customer paid for delivery already; it's not the guy's fault Uber Eats doesn't pay you enough
And the service fee, and the priority fee so it's not cold, and the mark-up on the food
"Your driver is delivering another order first"
Sure ask me again for that tip, APP. Do it. I dare you.
C'mon guys it's the soulless corporation exploiting the poor that we need to be mad at
You don't get rid of tipping culture by fucking over the people that need money the most.
The customer chose to tell OOP they deserve the bare minimum for their labor, despite clearly having money to blow. They deserved it. You reap what you sow.
As someone who actually makes the food I think drivers shouln't get tips but instead should be paid more. They should also have full vehicle maintenance covered while driving for work too. The whole delivery service thing is a grift that is eroding the resturaunt industry hard. If it wasn't for VC money it wouldn't even be feasable. Things will need to change soon
Tipping culture is bullshit anyway. If you run a business where you can't afford to pay your employees enough without going out of business, then your business shouldn't exist.
They can afford it. But the make more when they completely shaft both the customer and the driver.
This is untrue. Margins for restaurants are razor-thin. They could only raise wages and eliminate the need for tips by raising prices, but then people wouldn't eat there because everywhere else looks cheaper. Because customers are dumb and don't think about how much tips cost, just what the menu price says.
We aren't talking about restaurants. We are talking about delivery services.
If the restaurant doesn't serve the same food as their neighbor, why would they lose money to them? And if the restaurant DOES serve the same food as their neighbour, they are fucking stupid.
A common example though: A McDonalds Big Mac costs costs about $5.99 in , in Denmark it costs about $7. But in Denmark the worker is paid a minimum of $21. On top of that, they get paid maternity/paternity leave. The worker pays 2% of their pay into their pension fund, while the restaurant pays 11%. They get paid sickleave, they get 6 weeks of fully paid vacation per year. I could go on and on about workers rights that cost a lot of money for a business, but that somehow doesn't mean they have to raise prices.
If that's possible for pretty much the same price of a burger, then the margins aren't really as thin as you've been led to believe, but they make a hell of a lot more money by making you believe their lies.
Tipping culture is bullshit. But if somebody doesn’t want to participate in tipping culture, they should refuse to patronize businesses that do participate in it. Somebody who stiffs people that depend on tips to make a living isn’t doing anything except being an asshole
I think all tipped staff should instead be paid livable wage, but still be allowed to collect tips. Tipping should be something you do to flirt with the waitress or reward a team that did a really outstanding job
Yeah.... Maybe not the flirting part. Otherwise agreed.
You've got an interesting idea of flirting lol
"Hey baby, here's some cash. More where that came from ;)"
That's kind of how dates work
You find what you look for
This is so weird to read as a European.. Tips here are almost frowned upon
In Germany it's pretty common to tip a bit, even if not nearly as much as in the US. I wouldn't know what to tip for a 300€ order though because... What the fuck, did they order cocaine?
Fuck if I know. 5€?
300 is a round number already though. So no tip? 298.56 I could see rounding to 300 though.
0.5% - you might as well not bother as it's almost more of an insult than not tipping at all.
Its more about going to a round number so no bothering with change.
Yeah you see this is why we're calling tip culture toxic, if it makes you unable to appreciate someone doing you a favour, no matter how small, you are the problem, not the others with their weird "minimal wage actually sufficient to live" society. Most often, we tip 1 or 2 euros to our waiter if we enjoyed our meal, as a small thank you, and because we know they can otherwise get paid a true living wage just from the price we paid in the first place.
I would try $5, they might not understand our currency
No fuck them I say. They cannot even be bothered to tip in € when they come here. If I ever visit their godforsaken land again I will tip them in € out of spite
Pick one of the old currencies that is no longer in circulation. Leave them 2000 Italian lira.
I'll jus use slovenian tolar. We still have thousands of those lying someshere
The fun thing is that we'd be expected to pay between 15 and 20 percent on such an order.
Tipping in percent. Seems almost too metric. How many quarters to the foot gallon is that?
In America they tip in perpenny
I hear this a lot, but it doesn't seem true anymore. Every country I go to in Europe, tipping culture is creeping in and more expected in small amounts.
In many cases, yes. But when it comes to delivery services like this that has a history of underpaying and bad working conditions it just makes sense to tip IMO, and absolutely do it in hand and not via the app or whatever. I very rarely order food, and when I do I always try to stay clear of these kinds of delivery services. But it's often hard to so, and when there's no other option I always choose something that has a deal and then give the difference to what it would have been directly to the delivery person (not sure what the right word here is).
About a month ago I was at my moms place with my half brother and the local delivery app, foodora, had a 40% deal for any order from our favourite pizzeria so that was an obvious choice, when I gave the 40% of the total to the delivery person they almost started crying and that just felt so damn good. It absolutely sucks that this situation even happened, they should be paid more and have way better working conditions etc. but we all do what little we can with the reality we're in. I made some actual difference for someone and I'll take that.
You made it worse. Now instead of asking for a raise or changing a job he would hope for another client to gift him money.
Conversation with the wife:
"Are you pregnant?"
"No"
"Well some asshole left his trash on my windshield. And can you believe that a 3 course meal from a midrange restaurant costs $300 now?? WTF."
I think the implication would be that an angry mistress left it
I think the implication is that a healthy relationship wouldn't be phased by such a stunt.
Fair point
fazed*
Yeah, random stuff happens and normal people don't assume something like a pregnant mistress.
One time someone left a few roses under my windshield at work on valentine's day. I assume someone mistook my car for someone else's, not that I had some secret admirer who wanted to do a pointlessly anonymous gesture.
One time someone let out the air from one of my tires overnight in my driveway, for no apparent reason and it caused me mild annoyance.
Anyway, fake internet story for fake internet points.
Yeah that's how it would go if we found one on our car
Correct me if I'm wrong but the job is basically:
Accept an order (or don't if you don't feel like working)-> Pickup the order you didn't have to pack-> Deliver food & sometimes have 0 interaction with customer -> Hope for tip 🤞🏼🤞🏼🤞🏼
I've worked for tips before. I can relate to the anger of the delivery driver but an Uber Eats job seems so simple that it's almost insulting to the customer that a tip is even getting discussed. P.S. I do tip
You're wrong, but it's understandable. The key point you're getting wrong is: You make money from a job.
The pay for most of the assignments you get from DD or UE is usually not enough to cover fuel, let alone maintenance on your vehicle. Certainly less than minimum wage for your time. Which is legal for them to do, because you are a contractor, paid per job and not per hour. If the customer doesn't tip, you are earning less than minimum wage at best. In many cases, you're actually paying to work, but you're forced to take these unprofitable orders just to maintain your rating and keep getting assignments. (In my area, drivers call this "eating shit")
At best, you can take about 6 assignments an hour. To net minimum wage, you need at least three of them to tip well. When a restaurant doesn't bother to start preparing the order until you arrive, the time you waste waiting is 2-3 orders. If any of the remaining orders that hour don't tip, you're below minimum wage.
It is a shitty, exploitative service that nobody should be using. If you are going to use it, be aware that the service is taking everything you're paying, and completely shafting your driver.
Client does not need to be aware of how much each worker in the chain earns. He is aware of the price he is buying the food.
Same as delivery guy is aware of money he gets from the job. If he doesn't like the money, he should not take the job. Tips are totally optional bonus.
100%. The tip discussion is getting more and more prominent here in the UK. Please America please sort your shit out its spreading.
As a Canadian... first time?
A client is the person a contractor works for. The only client involved is the service itself, as the driver is a contractor.
The person making the purchase is a customer, not a client.
Ideally, you would be right. The customer should not be involved in the business relationship between the driver and the service. However, this is quite obviously not an ideal situation.
With employed waitstaff, tips are, technically, a bonus. A waitress who does not receive enough tips to put herself over minimum wage is entitled to extra pay to reach that point. Legally, this waitress is "adequately" compensated for her time, regardless of tips.
Unlike employed waitstaff, there is no provision to ensure this driver is compensated for their labor. There is no provision to ensure they are reimbursed for their actual expenses. The driver is often asked to subsidize certain customers, by accepting compensation that is less than minimum wage, and even at less than actual cost. They are often asked to pay to work.
Employees are protected by labor laws. When a group of employees decides to demand better pay, their collective action is explicitly protected.
When contractors do the same, their collective action violates anti-trust laws. They are guilty of collusion and price fixing.
The services have found a legal loophole to evade minimum wage and labor protections, and they are using it to exploit drivers.
The customer benefits from this. The customer is complicit in the exploitation. Ignorance does not negate their complicity.
(You should also know that if you do tip well, the services reduce their base pay further, effectively capturing part of your tip to the driver. They are exploiting you, too.)
Again, nobody should be using these services. They are bad for everyone. The only ethical way to use them is to tip sufficiently to ensure the driver's pay exceeds minimum wage.
I'm from Europe, so please explain, if workers don't make any money, why the hell are they working in the first place?
Seems stupid to keep working if you end up paying for the pleasure.
They make money... When a customer tips. The tip is, effectively, the only money they actually make. It's not how it should be, but it is how it actually is.
When every customer tips well, and nobody introduces delays to slow your hustle, it's a fairly lucrative job. When customers think tips are "optional" and stores don't actually start working on an order until you arrive, it's a shit job.
It's pretty much the same for our employed waitstaff. Your tips are paid out to you on the day you earn them. Your base wages are paid out weekly or biweekly. You keep 100% of your tips, but your employer is required to withhold income taxes from your base pay. If you make enough in tips, withholding is all of your base pay. You receive a pay stub where nearly 100% of your pay has been withheld and sent to the IRS for income taxes. Tips are, effectively, the only money you actually take home.
They make the money from tips, presumably.
This may be the reality, but in theory the answer is for people to say "fuck working for these asshats if we are stuck at the mercy of caprcious users tipping".
I would argue there is no ethical way to use them.
You don't have to convince me. I agree with you. These services are profoundly scummy and exploitative. They are almost as greedy as employers have become with your time.
Wow sounds like you should have found a different job than a job that doesn't make money!
I did. I'm a blacksmith. I found a niche where customers are appreciative of labor, and I fill that niche. The two seasons I relied on DD for flexible income are well in the past.
Congrats
Thank you.
The reality is that every job that requires a human to perform it, if worked "full time", should fully support a human's basic needs, including housing, and medical coverage. Every full-time worker should be earning gainful wages.
That isn't happening here.
These services should either be paying workers adequately, or they should not exist.
Customers should recognize that they are the beneficiaries of these exploitative conditions. Pretending that they are not complicit is simply unethical and immoral.
That makes more sense. It seems drivers are almost set up to fail. You can make big tips but you are more likely to get no tip or be under tipped.
They are getting screwed over pretty hard, yeah. It's really only lucrative if you're using a cheap EV, but there are no cheap EVs.
I think the tipping should be dealt away with. Instead something like: vehicle value, insurance cost, vehicle depreciation, maintenance, fuel costs, idle vehicle use time, "acts of god"--traffic accident delays, unexpected failures (wrong orders basically); should be factored into the pay instead of hoping for tips.
Then again none of this would exist if that was done.
I think we in a way are headed there. Bartering and trading have always been a thing, money is an exchange medium. I got tipped a few grams of coke for changing the brakes on a friends car, I didn't ask for any money and was doing a favor lol
2 things can be simultaneously true:
Now, I just elect to not order any delivery at all. There is a 15% service fee, a delivery fee, AND food markup because they charge restaurant like 30%.
I am not sure how is this a fair deal. The guy ordering $300 worth of food probably already paid $60-$100 to get his food. This is already way higher than any traditional delivery service would ask for. The price tag just no longer makes sense for me.
Yep. I just pick it up myself. If someone can earn a living by driving for 10 min, I guess I can too. ;p
Though, I mostly just cook. Eating out is extremely expensive.
You're absolutely right, but none of those fees go to the delivery worker. That's what we're talking about...
That's not how tips work
The algorithm demands the enragement bait.
Enormous $300 Uber order.... So like two numbers 1s from Chick fillet?
Oooof. Don't hit that hard please.
Chick fila is somehow cheaper than mcdonalds for me.
It's because of the huge tax breaks they get for being god's chosen, duh.
It seems that the driver doesn't need to know the value of the box they are delivering. They should expect the same tip from a $3 box and a $300.
$300 of food is probably multiple bags. They can guess the cost if the average Uber Eats order is $30.
More bags, higher delivery fee makes sense. But it doesn’t matter if it's 2lb of ramen or 2lb of lobster.
while I am moderately humored by the initial gesture, you and your partner are idiots, CJ
Not everyone who does it is doing it to survive. My coworker just does it when he's bored and his wife and kid are gone.
I thought for uber eats the "tip" was a bribe or bounty you have to add to your order ahead of time to ensure it even gets picked up?
Now there's a pay ~$5 extra option to have your order delivered first. I doubt that goes to the driver. I tip pretty well when I do order but I've been getting barely warm food for awhile. Once I did tip less and just pay the $5 fee to get my food faster. Just more enshittifaction.
Now with extortion!
They don't know the tip until after the delivery. I've had a driver be like "they're making me wait to pick this up, please add a tip for extra time" (yeah ok buddy) I had already put a large tip on the delivery. I really wanted to remove it after the driver pulled that shit though.
They paid $300...
Imagine being single and actively casually dating and having this just run in your head for the rest of your life. Never knowing if someone is going to show up to your door and introduce you as the parent. I think part of the terrorism is that it'd affect everything, and be especially hainious if you want to be a parent. Youd have to tell future potential long term partners that there may be a child out there. I think might be one of the most long term cognitohazard pranks I've seen
I don't think the recipient in this case is sexually active. It seems not even just the tip...
And that 1% will eat you alive. Fuck Uber Eats for how they pay their drivers, but fuck that guy. Ordering $300 of food and not even kicking a few bucks to the person delivering it, knowing full well that Uber pays their drivers like shit, is a trash move.
The stripes on the tests fade. It wouldn't be that visible after three months.
Instead of this moronic "voluntary" expectation, let's all save thousands of hours of arguments, posts, and complaints from everyone involved and add 20% to the bill for the worker done and done.
Sometimes you don't want to tip? No shit. I don't want to tip. I don't even want to pay. But I do it.
Let's all do what we want, good idea, everything is free and nobody works and we can just run through the woods and frolic which sounds like a good idea until you get hungry
Whenever I see Americans talking about tips, I imagine them like just another tax they have and not add to the price before the customer pays.
You just don't understand the freedom
It's the choice of paying taxes!
No no no, see here we add 7 dollars for "delivery" and as you would correctly assume, that goes directly to the CEO's 4th yacht.
Then we shame the customer into dropping another 15 or 20%.
I've recently just stopped tipping for any company that puts a fake delivery fee in their subtotal (or outright stop ordering from them when possible).
I worked for a place that did this, i.e. added a delivery surcharge which the house kept. I discovered that this is, in fact, illegal in my state unless it is disclosed in writing. Which it wasn't.
When we had a new point of sale system installed, as our restaurant's resident tech person I naturally adjusted the such that were were in compliance with the law and delivery surcharges were pooled with the employees' tips.
The owner never noticed.
The problem is the delivery companies are abusing the definition of “tip” and how they pay their drivers. I used to drive deliveries for DoorDash and they typically only pay $1.50-2.50 per delivery, despite charging $6-8 for a delivery fee, on top of prices typically being 30% higher than the menu in the restaurant. As a driver, the rule of thumb is typically that you shouldn’t take a job paying less than $1/mile. So the rest of the money for the driver comes from the “tip”. A tip is supposed to be a bonus reward for good service, but the reality of the situation on these delivery services is that it’s just the rest of the delivery fee to the driver. The delivery companies know if they list it as an actual delivery fee they’ll lose customers because some customers will feel like the fees become too excessive. So instead they exploit inexperienced drivers into taking orders thinking they’ll get a tip later, but often end up with nothing. And customers who think the tip is actually a tip according to the original definition and voluntary often end up with bad service because experienced drivers will pass on the deliveries, meaning they sit and sit, with food getting cold while the delivery service eventually starts offering to increase the pay in 25¢ increments after a certain number of rejections. Sometimes orders will sit for a couple hours before someone will finally take the order. This is still bad for the drivers, because the customers will often leave them a bad review, blaming the driver for the order taking so long to arrive. The driver doesn’t know what part is “tip” until the delivery is complete.
The reviews are another bad system. Historically people think of a 5-star rating system goes from 1 star being terrible, two being below average, three being average, four being above average, and five being excellent. However, rating systems often rank anything below five stars as bad. So people will leave a four star review thinking that’s good but as far as the company is concerned is bad. IIRC DoorDash drops any driver with a rating below 4.7. And we see this problem a lot of places online: product reviews on shops, online business reviews, even hotels where 3 stars was traditionally decent now see that as bad.
How about we take 20% of the owners pay.
Well. ..timeline isn't quite plausible. As these line tests fade pretty fast.
In a week it would be basically white with no lines.
Maybe 2 weeks.
Still funny tho
always the victim, these delivery drivers...
Even if the story were real.. The average Uber Eats payout is like 2ish dollars per delivery.
Sounds like they should be complaining to Uber, rather than consumers.
This. And at best, they can get about 6 orders per hour. That's about 12-24 miles on their odometer, which is $3-6 worth of gasoline in city traffic. At best, they net $6 to $9/hr before tips.
Oh, and remember: Contractors, not employees. They are paid per job, not per hour. There is no requirement for the service to ensure they receive at least minimum wage. On some shifts, drivers can expend more in gas than they earn.
I'd say that's chaotic rather than neutral.
Yes! Who cares about tips; get your alignments right, you cretin.
And he knew it was his car because...
Vindictive delivery drivers like this are yet another reason why I only make my own food.
Also, you know, I won't spend 300 quid on 1 meal.
Parties tho
Did I stutter?
I mean I guess not but like I think it is absolutely possible that at some point in your life, you might spend $300, or perhaps someone else's $300 (e.g. your employer) to get catering.
If it was my employer then would I even be allowed to give a tip? If they are paying I would probably spend what ever I can to max out the limit.
Which then leaves an interesting idea. Why 20% tip instead of 20% more food?
I mean it depends on your employer. But anecdotally, yes, business and corporate purchasers usually did tip us, although nowhere near the usual 10-20% of the price expected of smaller purchases. Actually, they would often tip in advance as part of a credit card payment, so it would be the person with decision-making authority (i.e. "the boss") setting the tip. (Cash tips were quietly preferred but I was always thankful for any tips.)
Reputation. Makes your company look bad if you don't tip at all.
I mean if you're trying to "max out" some limit, then simply max out (limit)/(100% + (tip)%) with (tip) > 0 and give the driver (limit), and your employer should understand what you're doing. I would fix (tip) with my employer before I set up the order. Or, tip out of your own pocket.
UK for perspective but I have heard enough business owners asking how to avoid paying tax while making tips appear mandatory (illegal) to have no respect for them.
Nah I don't have any respect for business owners either lol, petty capitalists are still capitalists and therefore need to be smashed like capitalists. I'm and I worked in food service for seven years. Tipping culture is ingrained enough here, and legally enshrined, that even petty capitalists tip as a social expectation.
I mean maybe if you tipped us we wouldn't have to be so vindictive 🤷
Yeah and then it becomes omg that was only 10%. Fuck that, I would rather not participate at all.
Like this is literally what I wanted when I worked in pizza delivery for seven years, literally just do pickup if you can't afford to tip. And tbh I don't order delivery anymore for that exact reason.
Then you get more crying about how much the hospitality sector is struggling - this is where we are currently where I live.
Funny thing is, wetherspoons are doing fine. Only once ever seen someone give a tip there and it was borderline sexual harassment.
I mean okay, but don't point your frustration at the proletarians who rely on your tips to survive. Like yeah tipping culture is bullshit, but it's not imposed by your servers and delivery drivers; it's imposed by capitalists and their demonic governments. We'd rather just get a living wage right out the gate, but that's literally not an option.
Not our fault. Not your fault either. It's the fault of the capitalists who are ruining our world and pitting us against each other.
I stopped eating outside years ago cause it's all shit.
Having said that -
So why are you doing exactly that? Tip is meant as extra on a job done well behind expectations. Are you not aware of it?
The fact that is composes most of your wages is not the fault of the Patreons coming to the establishment who are also required to pay ridiculously high prices on low quality food, and then also tip for the right to do so.
Not all people going to eat out have deep pockets, and trying to squeeze money because you feel entitled to it will only create antigonisem.
Take the fight against your employers and who ever owns them, instead of your fellow working class. The rest of us will probably be happy to join you and help you fight the good fight.
Otherwise, you are just helping the problem become entrenched deeper.
One last thing, what's so special about the driver, waiter and bartender that puts them in the tip-getting status? What about the cooks, busboys, cleaning, host/hostess etcetc
If the owner cannot pull in customers using the real price, which covers livable and decent and fair wages for all staff, they should not be in business, period.
Let's finish what I said:
I'm not saying to never ever point your frustration at proletarians. Sometimes we are assholes. I am absolutely frustrated at proletarians who deliberately make both of two choices: (1) get food from restaurants, which is an unnecessary luxury one can choose to live without, and (2) choose not to subsidize the delivery driver's wage, which is unfortunately the social contract which has been imposed upon us. If you did only one of these things, I wouldn't care.
When I worked in food service, I worked there because it was literally all I could get. Most of us, for practical purposes, do not choose food service, because the other "choices" are misery and poverty (more than food service already entails). Hence why I said "don't point your frustration at the proletarians who rely on your tips to survive," because we lack the freedom to choose a better line of work. If you can afford to go out to eat, you can afford to tip; you have the freedom to not be a part of the situation. Even though we are both proletarians, within our class, there exist various economic disparities and other social hierarchies which we must be careful not to reinforce.
No, patrons literally do not have to go to restaurants.
Not trying to be contentious but I have to say it: this is capitalist brainworms. This is how capitalists want us to think. This is their narrative, but it's not what is enshrined in law. What's enshrined in law is that you can legally refuse to pay a driver for a portion of their services.
Yeah I do not agree with the existence of tipping culture. It should be abolished. Unfortunately, tipping culture is legally enshrined in , so ignoring it before it is abolished is tantamount to withholding a driver's pay. Where I worked, drivers were paid less than inside staff to account for the fact that we got tips. This is an unacceptable practice, but it is enshrined in law. Everyone on this godforsaken planet deserves equal access to the fruits of labor.
Bringing kids into a world while this is the backdrop of one's life seems almost heartless.
Brutal hehe...