I once took an American friend out for a night in Manchester. His first night in the UK.
That dispelled a lot of the narrative of the quaintness of Europe.
There's this thing that Americans have. An old world ideal. Where they picture is all having two hour lunches and generally chilling about the place. It isn't real, just another dream sold to you by capitalism.
Sure, we do some things differently over here, public transport and the ability to walk places being two that I'm particularly fond of, but let's not rose tinted this.
The rise of fascism, or at least nationalism, is coupled with some awful working practices, mainly imported... And some of the levels of outright poverty, both urban and rural more than challenge that in the states.
This is just another reflection of the grass being greener.
You think Europeans are friendly? In my experience people are just people. The folk I've met in North America have been lovely, by and large and we have much, much more in common than this fairy tale suggests. But it swings both ways and we also have plenty of arseholes across Europe that would as soon as shank you as they would invite you for a chat and not ask you what you did.
That is kind of the thing. Americans earn extremely well. So when Americans move to southern Europe, they are either retired or have a great remote job. With cheap houses in the rural parts of those countries and access to public health care, you can actually have a pretty chill lifestyle.
That is to say: Capitalism is great for capitalists.
It depends, but in poor cities like Sevilla the suburbs have some decent apartments or houses for basically a good(like less then $100k) annual US salary. Those will have light rail access, so living car free is still possible.
There’s this thing that Americans have. An old world ideal. Where they picture is all having two hour lunches and generally chilling about the place.
I'm pretty sure I saw stats saying that in EU people actually do work less than in US. For example in most EU states you get way more paid leave than in US.
they picture is all having two hour lunches and generally chilling about the place.
I'd say it's overselling it, but there's a grain of truth to that.
some of the levels of outright poverty, both urban and rural more than challenge that in the states.
It depends. In poland where I live there are pretty much no slum districts despite being less developed than US in general.
You think Europeans are friendly? In my experience people are just people.
From what I gather US has that culture of fake friendliness, while in EU people react just more honestly. It might not be that pronounced in UK that shares more culture with US than EU.
I think my main problem is with Americans talking about "Europe" as if it is a singular monolithic entity similar to the US (which we all know is far more nuanced and the difference between Texas and Maine is vast).
That over-simplifocation, over-generalisation is a strong narrative, but a really useless one.
Also, Poland! Wonderful. One of the most genuinely decent places I've visited.
As for the fake friendliness... It r really isn't something I've encountered with Americans, at least no more than in capital cities all over the world.
I'm from the Netherlands and don't think I'll ever go back if not in my own bubble on a holiday not interacting too much
Such misery I haven't seen elsewhere as what your people vocalize. And the aggression is off the charts. I have my hopes up for Ireland, haven't been yet. But england? Nah, seen enough.
Every hometown is "a shithole" when you ask about it, indoctrination is complete with even "soulful folk" proudly exclaiming the most dumb standpoints
And the ones that rise above that are just more affluent and turn a bit more quiet so as not to risk showing their own true colors. Hypocrites, behind the elbows we call that. Class consciousness. Not European at all in my opinion. I kind of hope nowadays you guys don't ever get to return, it's that bad.
I hope it gets better for you over there but where I live lunches can last 1,5 hours and work still gets done with a vengeance
Most British people have been slowly crushed by 45 years of neo liberal economics. Its sucked the vitality and investment out of every town and village as the country deindustrialized and turned into a hub for casino capitalism in London
I imagine the Brits were happier before Thatcher arrived.
The poverty is extreme in some places. Even moreso just people's demeanor. Lower class is degenerate in the way that they both hate what's happening and do everything they can to make it worse by voting for right wing parties fueled by xenophobia as all they feel they want to control is their own living area and what else but a paki or a wog to blaim
I'm following the count binface saga for a bit, let's see if something happens there
I won't pretend to know the answers but I will say British folk are usually predictable to a t. Fancy clothes, handbags for men and vitriol for breakfast
When I visited Ireland everybody embodied this post. Everyone walked everywhere, 99% of my interactions were genuinely pleasant and friendly, it was a weekday but people were out enjoying a long lunch on a sunny day in Dublin.
I know a few UK people who moved to your country, all have pretty much vowed never to return to the UK. Every time I visit I wonder how you manage to do things so right (at least in comparison to the UK). The equivalent of UK council estates are a completely different vibe over there, the children seem so much happier and the work culture so much more chill.
He cited an American visiting the UK as an example of an American learning about Europe. I simply disagree that you can learn much about Europe from visiting the UK.
Also, the dude literally cites Greece, who do you think bailed out of the EU first? Does that mean Greece isn't in Europe?
Well not Greece because it's very much still a member of the EU. It even still uses the Euro as a currency. Of all its members, the UK is the only one that left.
Greece didn't bail out of the EU. Its still a member. It tried to reassert its monetary sovereignty during the Eurozone crisis and was crushed by Germany and forced into vicious austerity.
North America was the industrial powerhouse of the world until quite recently, and it also happened to be completely organized around the need for settlers to buy up and captialize on property. It is a culture centered on adversarial productivity; there's a reason fascism has always boiled under the surface.
This guy is a weird spiritual business guru. This post isn't an observation on modern American life, it's one of his many posts that try to sell you on his business where he claims that he can teach you how to monetize your passions and not have to actually work
Their intentions do not disqualify the legitimate point made though. As a European, the last time I considered I could maybe live in the former united states was around 1997. So well before it turned full-on shithead Magastan.
Sure but... does he keep meeting Americans that moved and didn't know life could be that way though?
More than one thing can be true at a time but while this reads like just some guy who keeps going to the local pub and meeting Americans who talk about how great life is after moving, in reality he's a business man making a sales pitch.
It's kind of working too. The amount of people here who didn't think to research who this guy is and just took his word for it is... something.
I'm not saying the guy is a grifter, I don't know. I don't know if he's right or wrong. My point is to make people aware this is a sales pitch not a genuine observation. And it's a sales pitch by a "spiritual guru", for what that's worth
Personally, the US is a big place and so culture varies state-to-state. Where I live, people don't ask you what you do for a living when you first meet them
Because while everyone is assuming this is a tweet by just some guy who keeps running into Americans at the Pub who tell him about how great life is after moving, in reality he's a business owner making a sales pitch
Knowing it's a sales pitch, do you still believe he regularly runs into Americans who moved to Italy? Or do you think maybe he's just making that up to try to sell his business to Americans?
That's choice is up to you I guess, but at least now you know
I see all the reels of Europeans coming to the US for the World Cup and they’re shocked how nice we are, how good the food is, etc etc. I have to remind myself that they’re visiting and that yes, we are nice on average and we don’t all live like an episode of The Wire, they don’t have to experience our job culture, health care, car requirement, extreme weather, and batshit insane and corrupt political system. Yes this is a great place to visit, but your life here is very much dictated by the hand you were dealt at birth.
Also these people are on vacation. People are in a good mood on vacation. They don't mind a lot of everyday bs. They don't really care of the food prices because they already spent a couple thousands to be there. Emotionally, they are in a theme park.
They're also the kind of people who, apparently, have no problem traveling to the US despite the country having captain orange pedophile behind the wheel. You know, morons.
... and my entire American life has been an oscillation between being indescribably furious, knowing that 'it doesnt have to be this way' and then laughing uproariously at people being surprised by the astoundingly predictable outcome of literally every one burning out and crashing out.
This never could work, the way we do things... its inhuman, and insane.
It is no measure of sanity to be well adjusted to deeply disturbed society.
We're just now finally experiencing the part where gravity resumes affecting Wile E Coyote.
As a neruospicy person that's also an INTJ on the Meyer Briggs scale, let me tell you that "infuriating" doesn't even come CLOSE to describing it.
Like I've spent 30 YEARS thinking of how to fix this busted system, read stoic, humanist, capitalist and socialist philosophy, Examined several world religions, studied most of european history, and am up to date on most science,... in short, I'm not a "know it all," I make it my business to be well versed.
So when I come up with an idea of how to really get down to the nuts and bolts of the issues, only to be told that my solutions would never work, the only thing I have to say to everyone is
Now, I'm an absurdist / cynical bastard, who just laughs as ... 90% of all the things I told people would happen, are currently happening, to society broadly, and themselves personally.
None of these people ever apologized for the mockery and social ostracization and gaslighting they did for the last 20 years... so fuck em!
That I was correct means nothing. That I caused them to experience the cognitive dissonance of their lack of actually thinking about things... is apparently the only thing that matters.
Which basically just means these people are selfish, egotistical, and lazy.
The good news is that I don't actually have to do anything about that. I can safely exist in my own way, at a bit of a distancd, while these idiots do their own survival of the fittest to each other.
I just had to get over the immense grief of fully realizing the extent to which I could do nothing about the incredible amount of unnecessary harm most normies gleefully do to themselves and others.
As someone who self-identifies almost the same exact way: yes, shit's way beyond infuriating.
Like I’ve spent 30 YEARS thinking of how to fix this busted system
The only conclusion I routinely come to is that this whole place operates like one gigantic work camp, and (in a way) we're still in the colonial era, built on top of centuries of extractive capitalism. We've made some progress by eliminating slavery, but the actual colonialism part has concluded within the continental US; it's still happening elsewhere. The suffering doesn't stop until we dramatically curtail incentives for exploitation of all forms.
There's a bunch of ways that could take shape, but as you suggest, they all require a change in attitude to pull off.
I’m in the fortunate position that I could tell my chronically ill spouse to just not work.
Took them literally years to work through the guilt of not working, the capitalist conditioning of work being your source of value was so strong.
Of all the things I’ve accomplished in my life, knowing that my beautiful, creative, loving spouse gets to spend their days not being crushed by the capitalist machine is my most cherished.
Been out of the states since January. I started in Portugal and I can confirm how relaxed it is there. I'm in Morocco now and have met the most kind and welcoming people I've ever known. Very relaxed here as well. I don't currently have plans to return.
It may or may not be possible for you depending on your specific situation. If you are in the "How can I get out?" camp, I'd encourage you to think seriously about making it happen. Look at how you could radically change things. Sell everything, quit your job, and crash at a family member's house. The barriers are likely lower than you imagine, and the upsides are dramatic.
I'd like to point out squats as an option too. It is sometimes bad, but usually super mild. People on speed raving a lot. If that's what it takes to get the first few months out of the way, fuck it
There's also couchsurfing.com or trustedhousesitters.com. We stayed in a place for a month for free and just had to take care of their cat and dog. It was a really good experience, and we've been doing it internationally off and on ever since to help mitigate rent.
Yes, the naivety of OOP not realizing that southern Europe is some of the most expensive real estate in the world and that the Americans moving there are moving with hoarded wealth is hilarious to me. "Let them eat cake" energy
What are you talking about? Real estate prices in southern Europe vary widely. Centers of the main cities on the coast are very expensive, everything else not so much. You will find the same lifestyle in Marbella and Cordoba but the prices are completely different. Not to mention all the smaller towns and villages with lots of real estate for sale. "Hoarded wealth" my ass.
Yeah that's just bullshit. Housing is expensive in main hubs like the Netherlands or Germany in Berlin or whatever. Not everywhere, by a long shot. Though we know why: commuting an hour is the norm
Yeah, give Mexico City a try. It's very much the same, only not so financially out of reach. You can get an okay house there for like $70,000 so you can buy a $2.5 million mansion. It's up to you and what kind of money you have.
I'm just coming back off of three weeks there and holy crap what a difference between America and Mexico.
Every street corner has foot traffic. There are shops every two city blocks for a 20 mile radius. There's a variety and art and culture, and everyone's just taking it easy. No one's in a big rush, even when their traffic is absolutely insane, it's insanity that's dealt with with a logical mind.
Culturally, America is 100 years behind Mexico City.
Mexico City has horrible air quality, is running out of water, and is literally sinking because of over-consumption tho? Not exactly where I'd want to make any long-term plans.
I haven't been to Mexico City, but I did get to go to Puerto Vallarta, and it seemed to match that person's experience. It was safe, cheap, and beautiful. Honestly I don't remember seeing people living in sheds, but it might have been outside of the places we visited. Traffic was annoying, but less than a similar-sized city in the US. It helped that lot of people walked or used bikes. And the food was really fresh.
The guy we were visiting was from the US and had moved there essentially because it was so nice while still having a very low cost of living compared to probably anywhere in the US. He mentioned the culture there was much more relaxed about time, so I wouldn't be surprised if they had a lot in common with OP's view of Southern Europe.
Ugh. Prosperity Gospel. I can't even begin to describe how much I loathe this concept.
I'm no theologian, but I see this as a perversion of the Protestant Work Ethic. The optics are the same, but the cause-and-effect are swapped in order to whitewash (bible-wash?) greedy behavior.
Seattle. It's changed a lot, but it used to be affordable and that it was taboo to even ask where you worked. Reps would blow you off constantly to go skiing or hiking. Now, the greeds have taken completely over, but the lifestyle remains.
You’re mentioning one city, talking about needing money to live there. The entire continent of Europe is like the op’s post. Not just southern Europe and not just cities. And you don’t need to be rich to live there.
Madison, Wisconsin. Most of the Great Lakes area (sans Chicago) in my experience. It's a beautiful region. Lots of cultural holdover from the Scandi immigrants that first populated it
So... two hour lunches. But I thought they still had a 40 hour workweek in most places. So do they work 8 to 6? Or is the 2nd hour of lunch technically work time?
Yes we have a 40 hour work week (germany).
Standard working hours are 8.5 hours a day, which includes 8 hours of paid work and a mandatory 30 minute unpaid break (So it's really a 42,5h week). I have never heard of a 2 hour lunch ever from anyone I know that works a regular job. On the contrary, many people simply work through their 30 minute break (Which is against the law but it can be difficult to enforce and you get singled out and bullied by management very quickly if you start acting up about it in many low income jobs)
Housing prices have been skyrocketing for decades and many people are struggling to pay for rent and groceries because wages have been stagnating when adjusted for cost of living at the same time. The welfare state has been and continues to be gutted in most parts of europe under the guise of saving money for war efforts or the covid crisis or climate change or whatever issue is available to justify it in the current moment.
Police are increasingly militarized and overly aggressive although they kill less people (Unjust killings are still happening all the time though).
Censorship is also ever increasing. For example targeting all shades of the "Pro-Palestinian" political movements, or incidents where people get their house raided etc. for posting unfavorable remarks about politicians on the internet.
There are also incidents of courts making overly harsh judgements to create examples out of cases against leftist lawbreakers to send a signal to the populous.
It's the same shit over here, just slightly milder. As a poor person in europe these posts read like either pure propaganda or uneducated statements made by comfortably wealthy european workers and small business owners or american tourists.
I think it's sad that being slightly better than the USA seems to be enough for so many people to proudly support all the deplorable shit that is happening in their own home countries.
It is a lot milder in key aspects. In Germany it is way less common that people go bankrupt over health issues. People can usually stay home when sick, paid, and those days aren't deducted from holidays either or similar nonsense. Of course there are problems and things are moving rather in the wrong direction but things are not almost the same ("slightly better"). If you think the social system is almost as bad in Germany I doubt you have experienced how things are for the poor in the US. It is not just a little bit worse. And lets not even start about the privatised prison system and laws designed to fill those privatised prisons instead of reducing crime. Then there are laws deliberately designed to prevent poor people from voting etc.
The original post said southern Europe, so Italy, Spain, Greece, etc. In these places many businesses close around lunchtime and reopen later in the afternoon. So typical opening hours may look like 8am-12:30pm, 3:30pm-7pm. That's not all places (restaurants or large grocery stores don't follow that format, obviously), but many shops do it.
Really depends on where you work. I'd say the vast majority does not have 2h lunches. That only happens in pretty relaxed jobs or for upper management, who probably bill it as work meeting anyway. Probably not all that different from America.
Edit: At least in Germany. Italy or Spain might might be more relaxed.
Ehh.... Probably a bit hyperbolic. Most people are jumpy around loud things, not because they are afraid of guns, but because loud noises are surprising. Your brain isn't very involved in most of your body's reflexive actions.
Plus, most Americans haven't been around people firing guns either. And the sound that a gun makes changes pretty drastically based on environment and where you are relative to the shooter. The most common reaction to actually being shot at is generally confusion not fear.
The machine is not for everyone - and we should have a system that allows people to have a balanced life. But we should not punish or prevent the people who like working like that. It takes all kinds...
I think the consideration is that, in moving away from the mandatory hustle "culture"/grind, care is taken not to stigmatize it for the people for whom it is a desirable lifestyle. Culture has a way of overcorrecting.
Is there an actual way to preempt a swinging cultural pendulum before it changes direction?
The obvious answer is to try to convince people, but that doesn't account for the reason (I think) that pendulum is getting more extreme in recent decades, which has a lot to do with corporate media and corporate social media. I hate to be the boring one who always connects the dots back to billionaires, but I really think it we got rid of billionaires we'd have a lot less to worry about culturally.
We're all just spitballing here unless someone is secretly a sociologist, but I do think social media accelerates cultural swings/overcompensations. Social media, and its focus on appearances, encourages a low-specificity sorta purity testing. If you aren't visibly conforming, at the very least you'll be inundated with media of how "this" is the correct thing. And that's assuming you aren't actively harangued by people pushing conformity. So "the correct thing" gets positively reinforced and quickly builds momentum.
I think the only recourse is educating people to not just absorb everything their eyes and ears ingest, i.e. critical thinking. Which doesn't seem feasible without a revamp of education.
I totally get the impulse to say "we solve this by making people smarter", and when it works I'm over the moon. But it's literally the hardest solution to achieve in a fascist society where all the major media outlets are co-opted and the schools are all chronically underfunded.
The only other answer depends on where you[impersonal] lie on the topic of governance. Because you'd need some kind of overarching organization to feed mediating/moderating media to the population (trying to sidestep the word "propaganda" although that is what it would be).
Either the population becomes smart enough to ameliorate unreasoned shifts in culture on an individual basis or the populace entrusts that responsibility to someone over them.
In-line edit: I guess there is also the possibility of a sort of "herd immunity", where enough educated individuals are countering misinformation and overreactions in their community to achieve the same effect.
Hard to say. I think anyone trying to force anything on a society usually deserves to be shot into the sun. Maybe the only morally flawless way to create a better world is to expand your (impersonal) own circle of empathy to its maximum, and when you get a chance, try to help others to do the same.
You are not too late, you can still get finnish citizenship the same way as every other immigrant: you have to live there for 8 years, and learn the beautiful agglutinative language!
sure but they are maga who think america is the best country ever, so they would never consider it and would fucking flip if i mentioned wanting to leave lol
Then there are people like me whose ancestors came here before the Civil War. My last name comes from a German immigrant who came here during the German 1848 revolution.
Quick reminder that if you have german ancestors that had to flee the nazis, you can claim their citizenship back. Once you got the german passport the whole EU allows you to be a resident.
Assuming you're a privileged white person with an employer who is willing to fill out paperwork and vouch for you with the government before they've even hired you and aren't trying to stay permanently
It's not as bad as you think. I know many people who moved here (Germany) from outside the EU and are now on their way to citizenship or already have it.
You don't have to be a "privileged white person" for that either.
Spain has massively increased it's population. Even though the birthrate is below replacement level. All of that is immigration.
You can move to basically anywhere. Most countries offer legal immigration paths. Some are of course harder than others, but it's possible.
Especially if you are highly skilled. Such as a medical doctor.
Countries love already educated professionals, since they basically get all the benefit of a fully working adult without the downside of paying for its childcare or education.
And even if low educated, most first world countries want low educated foreigners that can do the "dirty" physical work that the locals don't want to do, such as construction.
There is very little chance of most of us escaping to Europe. Every program that I've looked at for moving over there has been entirely closed within a day or two due to the amount of applications being sent in.
Your mind is under control, your defeatism is maxed out
Check this out
If you're a U.S. citizen, you can move to the Netherlands under the Dutch-American Friendship Treaty (DAFT). You need to start or register a business in the Netherlands (freelancing counts), maintain at least €4,500 in the business, and apply for a DAFT residence permit. The permit is initially granted for 2 years and can be renewed as long as you're actively running the business. It's one of the easiest ways for Americans to legally live in the Netherlands as a self-employed person.
Americans, 20+ years ago I joined the Peace Corps. Extended, spent 3 years in a wild, amazing place in West Africa. Met my spouse, loved the experience. Strongly recommend. Over the last 20+ years, been out of the States for 10+. It's a springboard.
Right now, recruitment is down. A lot. The bar is citizenship, be 20-something (technically 18, but you need some something experience and not really fresh from high school), and don't have a totally jacked up body. You won't be doing shit for sleepy T, like how I didn't do shit for W.
You want Southern Europe? SE Europe is awesome. Albania, Kosovo, MKD, all options. Also Moldova, if you like wine. So are Armenia and Georgia, which are also amazing.
"The Volunteer appears to be someone with nothing to do; his skills are not utilized and the community doesn’t know what he has to offer in the way of help.”
fff.org
tourism is nice for the tourist. sounds more like neo-colonialism to me. I'm glar you had a nice time
Sorry, so you have one quote from somewhere on a libertarian thinkintank and that's....a demonstration of bias? What are you trying to say wit this very out of context, zero evidence missive?
It's neo-colonialsm in as much as letting people who know about American only through Tik Tok or facebook meet a real one and ask about things.
I had to talk to a lot of people about why "George Bush, strong man!" and why that was not true. Then he bombed Iraq and when they then asked "Does...George Bush hate muslims? But...we're Muslim! Is he going to bomb us?" I also eventually left and educated a lot of people in the US about how all those "evl, terrible muslims" are, in fact, not evil or terrible."
One third of the goals are to share the experiences you have with the US. I'd love to hear how that's neocolonialsm.
I'm glad you had a nice time. i wasn't there, so i can't speak on the conversations you had. i do think that the US government wouldn't pay for people to go abroad if it wasn't getting something out of the deal, but maybe you stuck it to the man and weakened the US empire's grip
First off, the Peace Corps budget is tiny compared to most other federal agencies, at around $430 million a year right now. When I was serving, we liked to tell people that the US Army Band had a budget the size of our entire country program, which supported 120 volunteers and employed dozens of local staff members. Many of whom had advanced degrees and managed the American volunteers. I only got $4 a day because living at a local level is part of the job description. So it's not salaries overseas that drive the budget. Maybe the DC ones, if anything. It was simply too small to get DOGEd, and DOGE fell apart before they got down to the smaller agencies.
Second, yes, it's absolutely a form of soft power. That's a very up front, stated goal - the stated 3 goals are 1) Do development work as requested by the host country (formerly towards a goal of world peace and friendship), 2) be Americans overseas and talk about being an American, and 3) come back to the US and tell Americans about what you did and saw and experienced. So Goal 2 is literally to be present, and be you. There are some real rules, like don't attend local protests or actively campaign regarding US elections (per the Hatch Act, which applies to federal employees and members of the military as well), and a few others that make sense. At no point was I, or any volunteer ever told to pass along USG talking points. Most of us spent a lot of time shit-talking W, so if it's some grand conspiracy for that, they forgot to tell me and nearly everyone else I served with. It's often a bunch of crunchy granola super liberal people in the first place, and what few conservatives make their way in, often see real life and turn pretty lefty and activist-oriented afterwards.
And all of this wasn't even Kennedy's idea. The UK's VSO proved the point that there was demand for something like that in the US, and Kennedy took the idea (willingly) from university students during his campaign and ran with it.
It's worth also knowing that Peace Corps programs are only in countries that ask for them. They take years of work to identify sectors of work and which government ministries to work with, etc. before anyone ever gets on a plane. Communities are asked, and often go out of their way to request volunteers work with them. Some gringo doesn't just show up one day demanding things. Every single day I was working with people on things they wanted to do. The community where I lived tasked me with things, and I would try and find info for them and get something going. If I found promising ideas, I would bring them back and ask people what they thought. We did a whole village-wide assessment of potential projects, because without community buy-in, most ideas fall apart quickly.
I know you really wanted to shit on this for no reason other than lack of knowledge about it. Not that it's above criticism. There's things to fix or modernize. Funding projects is still a massive pain, and worse now. But name one thing that's perfect anywhere, though, right? If anyone thought it was perfect, that's a red flag all on its own.
Don't blame us for the machine chewing you guys up
It's sad sure but very entitled of you to think countries just open their wallets to the people that got wrecked and only then attempt to seek greener pastures. It's up to your government to support you. I'm sorry.
I appreciate the optimism and recognize that people going through shit need to hear that kind of thing, but the fact is that immigrating anywhere is way way tougher than it needs to be, and lots of people won't be able to at all because they were born in the wrong country, or just don't have the money or connections required.
I'm not saying that anyone who's trying to make the journey should give up, I'm saying that all of the rest of us should be demanding our rulers make this less of a struggle
I'm talking about joining a volunteer program where the government pays for a person to be somewhere outside the US, get trained, improve skills, and do work to help other people. Clever people can use that as an opportunity to be out for as long as you want. Grad school in the UK could be next, or some other job. It's a lot easier to get a job outside the US when you're already out.
School closed early due to heat today. So I dropped a line in work slack, picked up my kid and went swimming in a great open air pool for 4.50. Europe is wonderful place to live.
I once took an American friend out for a night in Manchester. His first night in the UK.
That dispelled a lot of the narrative of the quaintness of Europe.
There's this thing that Americans have. An old world ideal. Where they picture is all having two hour lunches and generally chilling about the place. It isn't real, just another dream sold to you by capitalism.
Sure, we do some things differently over here, public transport and the ability to walk places being two that I'm particularly fond of, but let's not rose tinted this.
The rise of fascism, or at least nationalism, is coupled with some awful working practices, mainly imported... And some of the levels of outright poverty, both urban and rural more than challenge that in the states.
This is just another reflection of the grass being greener.
You think Europeans are friendly? In my experience people are just people. The folk I've met in North America have been lovely, by and large and we have much, much more in common than this fairy tale suggests. But it swings both ways and we also have plenty of arseholes across Europe that would as soon as shank you as they would invite you for a chat and not ask you what you did.
That is kind of the thing. Americans earn extremely well. So when Americans move to southern Europe, they are either retired or have a great remote job. With cheap houses in the rural parts of those countries and access to public health care, you can actually have a pretty chill lifestyle.
That is to say: Capitalism is great for capitalists.
I do wonder how much this is about moving from urban spaces to rural spaces as opposed to geographic discrepencies.
It depends, but in poor cities like Sevilla the suburbs have some decent apartments or houses for basically a good(like less then $100k) annual US salary. Those will have light rail access, so living car free is still possible.
I'm pretty sure I saw stats saying that in EU people actually do work less than in US. For example in most EU states you get way more paid leave than in US.
I'd say it's overselling it, but there's a grain of truth to that.
It depends. In poland where I live there are pretty much no slum districts despite being less developed than US in general.
From what I gather US has that culture of fake friendliness, while in EU people react just more honestly. It might not be that pronounced in UK that shares more culture with US than EU.
I think my main problem is with Americans talking about "Europe" as if it is a singular monolithic entity similar to the US (which we all know is far more nuanced and the difference between Texas and Maine is vast).
That over-simplifocation, over-generalisation is a strong narrative, but a really useless one.
Also, Poland! Wonderful. One of the most genuinely decent places I've visited.
As for the fake friendliness... It r really isn't something I've encountered with Americans, at least no more than in capital cities all over the world.
To be fair the UK is actually depressing
I'm from the Netherlands and don't think I'll ever go back if not in my own bubble on a holiday not interacting too much
Such misery I haven't seen elsewhere as what your people vocalize. And the aggression is off the charts. I have my hopes up for Ireland, haven't been yet. But england? Nah, seen enough.
Every hometown is "a shithole" when you ask about it, indoctrination is complete with even "soulful folk" proudly exclaiming the most dumb standpoints
And the ones that rise above that are just more affluent and turn a bit more quiet so as not to risk showing their own true colors. Hypocrites, behind the elbows we call that. Class consciousness. Not European at all in my opinion. I kind of hope nowadays you guys don't ever get to return, it's that bad.
I hope it gets better for you over there but where I live lunches can last 1,5 hours and work still gets done with a vengeance
Most British people have been slowly crushed by 45 years of neo liberal economics. Its sucked the vitality and investment out of every town and village as the country deindustrialized and turned into a hub for casino capitalism in London
I imagine the Brits were happier before Thatcher arrived.
The poverty is extreme in some places. Even moreso just people's demeanor. Lower class is degenerate in the way that they both hate what's happening and do everything they can to make it worse by voting for right wing parties fueled by xenophobia as all they feel they want to control is their own living area and what else but a paki or a wog to blaim
I'm following the count binface saga for a bit, let's see if something happens there
I won't pretend to know the answers but I will say British folk are usually predictable to a t. Fancy clothes, handbags for men and vitriol for breakfast
When I visited Ireland everybody embodied this post. Everyone walked everywhere, 99% of my interactions were genuinely pleasant and friendly, it was a weekday but people were out enjoying a long lunch on a sunny day in Dublin.
Can't recommend enough.
I know a few UK people who moved to your country, all have pretty much vowed never to return to the UK. Every time I visit I wonder how you manage to do things so right (at least in comparison to the UK). The equivalent of UK council estates are a completely different vibe over there, the children seem so much happier and the work culture so much more chill.
The UK is very different from southern Europe
And large parts of "Southern Europe" are radically different from each other.
Ok? But the UK is even more different
The UK is not Europe, as I'm sure you know about the whole brexit thing.
Come on, of course it is. It's not EU anymore but it's still in Europe.
They seem like quite the outlier then if you really insist on including them.
If its just a geographic thing you mean, then sure its in Europe.
He cited an American visiting the UK as an example of an American learning about Europe. I simply disagree that you can learn much about Europe from visiting the UK.
Cool, disagree away. Doesn't change anything.
You said "the UK is not Europe" and I agree. Europe is massive and diverse.
Maybe that's what you meant.
What do you mean with that? Greece is still in the EU. The EU bailed out Greece not that Greece left the EU.
Well not Greece because it's very much still a member of the EU. It even still uses the Euro as a currency. Of all its members, the UK is the only one that left.
Greece didn't bail out of the EU. Its still a member. It tried to reassert its monetary sovereignty during the Eurozone crisis and was crushed by Germany and forced into vicious austerity.
What you earn and what you do….never understand asking that when you meet someone. Canadians seem to do it too.
The vast majority of us spend 40 hours per week on that thing, it's a big part of our identity.
This is true of a lot of the world. We don’t judge people on what they do or earn though, or make it our entire character.
North America was the industrial powerhouse of the world until quite recently, and it also happened to be completely organized around the need for settlers to buy up and captialize on property. It is a culture centered on adversarial productivity; there's a reason fascism has always boiled under the surface.
I dont think i'd survive the American hustle life, where everything is a potential sale and money is all your ever taught to create.
Capitalism exhausts the earth and its people. I don´t think southern Europe is excluded.
This guy is a weird spiritual business guru. This post isn't an observation on modern American life, it's one of his many posts that try to sell you on his business where he claims that he can teach you how to monetize your passions and not have to actually work
Their intentions do not disqualify the legitimate point made though. As a European, the last time I considered I could maybe live in the former united states was around 1997. So well before it turned full-on shithead Magastan.
Sure but... does he keep meeting Americans that moved and didn't know life could be that way though?
More than one thing can be true at a time but while this reads like just some guy who keeps going to the local pub and meeting Americans who talk about how great life is after moving, in reality he's a business man making a sales pitch.
It's kind of working too. The amount of people here who didn't think to research who this guy is and just took his word for it is... something.
I'm not saying the guy is a grifter, I don't know. I don't know if he's right or wrong. My point is to make people aware this is a sales pitch not a genuine observation. And it's a sales pitch by a "spiritual guru", for what that's worth
Personally, the US is a big place and so culture varies state-to-state. Where I live, people don't ask you what you do for a living when you first meet them
Your point is fair, Iappreciated being told when someone posts with ulterior motives.
blue checkmark rule
Why should I care?
Because while everyone is assuming this is a tweet by just some guy who keeps running into Americans at the Pub who tell him about how great life is after moving, in reality he's a business owner making a sales pitch
Knowing it's a sales pitch, do you still believe he regularly runs into Americans who moved to Italy? Or do you think maybe he's just making that up to try to sell his business to Americans?
That's choice is up to you I guess, but at least now you know
I mean it's a tweet, I wouldn't trust it to be true either way
I see all the reels of Europeans coming to the US for the World Cup and they’re shocked how nice we are, how good the food is, etc etc. I have to remind myself that they’re visiting and that yes, we are nice on average and we don’t all live like an episode of The Wire, they don’t have to experience our job culture, health care, car requirement, extreme weather, and batshit insane and corrupt political system. Yes this is a great place to visit, but your life here is very much dictated by the hand you were dealt at birth.
Also these people are on vacation. People are in a good mood on vacation. They don't mind a lot of everyday bs. They don't really care of the food prices because they already spent a couple thousands to be there. Emotionally, they are in a theme park.
And importantly, they are drunk.
They're also the kind of people who, apparently, have no problem traveling to the US despite the country having captain orange pedophile behind the wheel. You know, morons.
it's not just being stuck in it. if you voluntarily leave it, you're labeled aberrant.
... and my entire American life has been an oscillation between being indescribably furious, knowing that 'it doesnt have to be this way' and then laughing uproariously at people being surprised by the astoundingly predictable outcome of literally every one burning out and crashing out.
This never could work, the way we do things... its inhuman, and insane.
It is no measure of sanity to be well adjusted to deeply disturbed society.
We're just now finally experiencing the part where gravity resumes affecting Wile E Coyote.
... but we have a very long way to still fall.
As a neruospicy person that's also an INTJ on the Meyer Briggs scale, let me tell you that "infuriating" doesn't even come CLOSE to describing it.
Like I've spent 30 YEARS thinking of how to fix this busted system, read stoic, humanist, capitalist and socialist philosophy, Examined several world religions, studied most of european history, and am up to date on most science,... in short, I'm not a "know it all," I make it my business to be well versed.
So when I come up with an idea of how to really get down to the nuts and bolts of the issues, only to be told that my solutions would never work, the only thing I have to say to everyone is
"Not with that attitude." As I scream internally.
Hah, yeah you're basically descibing my 20s.
Now, I'm an absurdist / cynical bastard, who just laughs as ... 90% of all the things I told people would happen, are currently happening, to society broadly, and themselves personally.
None of these people ever apologized for the mockery and social ostracization and gaslighting they did for the last 20 years... so fuck em!
That I was correct means nothing. That I caused them to experience the cognitive dissonance of their lack of actually thinking about things... is apparently the only thing that matters.
Which basically just means these people are selfish, egotistical, and lazy.
The good news is that I don't actually have to do anything about that. I can safely exist in my own way, at a bit of a distancd, while these idiots do their own survival of the fittest to each other.
I just had to get over the immense grief of fully realizing the extent to which I could do nothing about the incredible amount of unnecessary harm most normies gleefully do to themselves and others.
That is apparently just the human condition.
As someone who self-identifies almost the same exact way: yes, shit's way beyond infuriating.
The only conclusion I routinely come to is that this whole place operates like one gigantic work camp, and (in a way) we're still in the colonial era, built on top of centuries of extractive capitalism. We've made some progress by eliminating slavery, but the actual colonialism part has concluded within the continental US; it's still happening elsewhere. The suffering doesn't stop until we dramatically curtail incentives for exploitation of all forms.
There's a bunch of ways that could take shape, but as you suggest, they all require a change in attitude to pull off.
Slavery is still very much alive in prison systems. So nope, not even that.
Fair. I keep forgetting about that loophole.
American here - we're conditioned from birth to think not working as hard as possible to make money for somebody else is lazy.
I’m in the fortunate position that I could tell my chronically ill spouse to just not work.
Took them literally years to work through the guilt of not working, the capitalist conditioning of work being your source of value was so strong.
Of all the things I’ve accomplished in my life, knowing that my beautiful, creative, loving spouse gets to spend their days not being crushed by the capitalist machine is my most cherished.
Apparently I live in the wrong Southern Europe
It's okay, I live in Ohio and we work like this, but instead of asking what you do we ask which high school you went to, and what you think about
The comments in here are largely centered around "How can I get out?" Or alternately "Getting out is not possible."
I came across this post last year, and it gave me the kick in the pants to get out myself.
https://crazypeople.online/post/6720157
Been out of the states since January. I started in Portugal and I can confirm how relaxed it is there. I'm in Morocco now and have met the most kind and welcoming people I've ever known. Very relaxed here as well. I don't currently have plans to return.
It may or may not be possible for you depending on your specific situation. If you are in the "How can I get out?" camp, I'd encourage you to think seriously about making it happen. Look at how you could radically change things. Sell everything, quit your job, and crash at a family member's house. The barriers are likely lower than you imagine, and the upsides are dramatic.
I'd like to point out squats as an option too. It is sometimes bad, but usually super mild. People on speed raving a lot. If that's what it takes to get the first few months out of the way, fuck it
There's also couchsurfing.com or trustedhousesitters.com. We stayed in a place for a month for free and just had to take care of their cat and dog. It was a really good experience, and we've been doing it internationally off and on ever since to help mitigate rent.
There are places in America that are like this, you have to be able to afford it though.
Yes, the naivety of OOP not realizing that southern Europe is some of the most expensive real estate in the world and that the Americans moving there are moving with hoarded wealth is hilarious to me. "Let them eat cake" energy
What are you talking about? Real estate prices in southern Europe vary widely. Centers of the main cities on the coast are very expensive, everything else not so much. You will find the same lifestyle in Marbella and Cordoba but the prices are completely different. Not to mention all the smaller towns and villages with lots of real estate for sale. "Hoarded wealth" my ass.
Yeah that's just bullshit. Housing is expensive in main hubs like the Netherlands or Germany in Berlin or whatever. Not everywhere, by a long shot. Though we know why: commuting an hour is the norm
Last time I checked there were actually non-rich people in southern Europe.
People don't seem to realize that rich people actually need non-rich people living near them, and they're not all live-in servants.
There's like 6 of them
Most of Southern Europe is significantly poorer than most of Northern Europe...
Yeah, give Mexico City a try. It's very much the same, only not so financially out of reach. You can get an okay house there for like $70,000 so you can buy a $2.5 million mansion. It's up to you and what kind of money you have.
I'm just coming back off of three weeks there and holy crap what a difference between America and Mexico.
Every street corner has foot traffic. There are shops every two city blocks for a 20 mile radius. There's a variety and art and culture, and everyone's just taking it easy. No one's in a big rush, even when their traffic is absolutely insane, it's insanity that's dealt with with a logical mind.
Culturally, America is 100 years behind Mexico City.
Mexico City has horrible air quality, is running out of water, and is literally sinking because of over-consumption tho? Not exactly where I'd want to make any long-term plans.
I've been to Mexico a few times, and I never would have described it that way to anybody. I literally saw people living in sheds when I went there.
I haven't been to Mexico City, but I did get to go to Puerto Vallarta, and it seemed to match that person's experience. It was safe, cheap, and beautiful. Honestly I don't remember seeing people living in sheds, but it might have been outside of the places we visited. Traffic was annoying, but less than a similar-sized city in the US. It helped that lot of people walked or used bikes. And the food was really fresh.
The guy we were visiting was from the US and had moved there essentially because it was so nice while still having a very low cost of living compared to probably anywhere in the US. He mentioned the culture there was much more relaxed about time, so I wouldn't be surprised if they had a lot in common with OP's view of Southern Europe.
Some cities in Mexico are safe, some are not, just like most countries.
I didn't see people living in sheds in the city, it was outside the city.
Are you sure it's hoarded and they didn't just spent it on a home in Southern Europe?
I feel like you have never been nor seen from afar the situation in most southern europe countries huh
I dont think OOP has either lol
Where's this one in the screenshot?
Ugh. Prosperity Gospel. I can't even begin to describe how much I loathe this concept.
I'm no theologian, but I see this as a perversion of the Protestant Work Ethic. The optics are the same, but the cause-and-effect are swapped in order to whitewash (bible-wash?) greedy behavior.
Living in europe is def more chill than USA but i agree that it's been romanticised too much lmao
Or be so poor and in such a backwater place that time has no meaning.
That's where my van's going.
I’m originally from Mississippi. I feel this comment.
My dad always called it the land that time forgot…
Exactly the kind of place I was thinking. Missouri had the same places.
Where
Seattle. It's changed a lot, but it used to be affordable and that it was taboo to even ask where you worked. Reps would blow you off constantly to go skiing or hiking. Now, the greeds have taken completely over, but the lifestyle remains.
Ah, so were like this
No, it's still mostly like this, you just have to be rich to live in the city.
You’re mentioning one city, talking about needing money to live there. The entire continent of Europe is like the op’s post. Not just southern Europe and not just cities. And you don’t need to be rich to live there.
Madison, Wisconsin. Most of the Great Lakes area (sans Chicago) in my experience. It's a beautiful region. Lots of cultural holdover from the Scandi immigrants that first populated it
So... two hour lunches. But I thought they still had a 40 hour workweek in most places. So do they work 8 to 6? Or is the 2nd hour of lunch technically work time?
Yes we have a 40 hour work week (germany). Standard working hours are 8.5 hours a day, which includes 8 hours of paid work and a mandatory 30 minute unpaid break (So it's really a 42,5h week). I have never heard of a 2 hour lunch ever from anyone I know that works a regular job. On the contrary, many people simply work through their 30 minute break (Which is against the law but it can be difficult to enforce and you get singled out and bullied by management very quickly if you start acting up about it in many low income jobs)
Housing prices have been skyrocketing for decades and many people are struggling to pay for rent and groceries because wages have been stagnating when adjusted for cost of living at the same time. The welfare state has been and continues to be gutted in most parts of europe under the guise of saving money for war efforts or the covid crisis or climate change or whatever issue is available to justify it in the current moment.
Police are increasingly militarized and overly aggressive although they kill less people (Unjust killings are still happening all the time though).
Censorship is also ever increasing. For example targeting all shades of the "Pro-Palestinian" political movements, or incidents where people get their house raided etc. for posting unfavorable remarks about politicians on the internet. There are also incidents of courts making overly harsh judgements to create examples out of cases against leftist lawbreakers to send a signal to the populous.
It's the same shit over here, just slightly milder. As a poor person in europe these posts read like either pure propaganda or uneducated statements made by comfortably wealthy european workers and small business owners or american tourists. I think it's sad that being slightly better than the USA seems to be enough for so many people to proudly support all the deplorable shit that is happening in their own home countries.
It is a lot milder in key aspects. In Germany it is way less common that people go bankrupt over health issues. People can usually stay home when sick, paid, and those days aren't deducted from holidays either or similar nonsense. Of course there are problems and things are moving rather in the wrong direction but things are not almost the same ("slightly better"). If you think the social system is almost as bad in Germany I doubt you have experienced how things are for the poor in the US. It is not just a little bit worse. And lets not even start about the privatised prison system and laws designed to fill those privatised prisons instead of reducing crime. Then there are laws deliberately designed to prevent poor people from voting etc.
The original post said southern Europe, so Italy, Spain, Greece, etc. In these places many businesses close around lunchtime and reopen later in the afternoon. So typical opening hours may look like 8am-12:30pm, 3:30pm-7pm. That's not all places (restaurants or large grocery stores don't follow that format, obviously), but many shops do it.
Really depends on where you work. I'd say the vast majority does not have 2h lunches. That only happens in pretty relaxed jobs or for upper management, who probably bill it as work meeting anyway. Probably not all that different from America.
Edit: At least in Germany. Italy or Spain might might be more relaxed.
The better post that I saw was someone saying how ex-USA citizens jumped at loud sounds because we fear gunfire and Europeans took them in stride.
Ehh.... Probably a bit hyperbolic. Most people are jumpy around loud things, not because they are afraid of guns, but because loud noises are surprising. Your brain isn't very involved in most of your body's reflexive actions.
Plus, most Americans haven't been around people firing guns either. And the sound that a gun makes changes pretty drastically based on environment and where you are relative to the shooter. The most common reaction to actually being shot at is generally confusion not fear.
Lol, being afraid to die. Where in america do they live, Hawaii?
imagine living in europe and wanting to turn it into the USA. That is what a lot of conservative and liberal politicians feel like to me.
The machine is not for everyone - and we should have a system that allows people to have a balanced life. But we should not punish or prevent the people who like working like that. It takes all kinds...
I think the only people anyone's wanting to punish is billionaires.
I think the consideration is that, in moving away from the mandatory hustle "culture"/grind, care is taken not to stigmatize it for the people for whom it is a desirable lifestyle. Culture has a way of overcorrecting.
Is there an actual way to preempt a swinging cultural pendulum before it changes direction?
The obvious answer is to try to convince people, but that doesn't account for the reason (I think) that pendulum is getting more extreme in recent decades, which has a lot to do with corporate media and corporate social media. I hate to be the boring one who always connects the dots back to billionaires, but I really think it we got rid of billionaires we'd have a lot less to worry about culturally.
We're all just spitballing here unless someone is secretly a sociologist, but I do think social media accelerates cultural swings/overcompensations. Social media, and its focus on appearances, encourages a low-specificity sorta purity testing. If you aren't visibly conforming, at the very least you'll be inundated with media of how "this" is the correct thing. And that's assuming you aren't actively harangued by people pushing conformity. So "the correct thing" gets positively reinforced and quickly builds momentum.
I think the only recourse is educating people to not just absorb everything their eyes and ears ingest, i.e. critical thinking. Which doesn't seem feasible without a revamp of education.
I totally get the impulse to say "we solve this by making people smarter", and when it works I'm over the moon. But it's literally the hardest solution to achieve in a fascist society where all the major media outlets are co-opted and the schools are all chronically underfunded.
The only other answer depends on where you[impersonal] lie on the topic of governance. Because you'd need some kind of overarching organization to feed mediating/moderating media to the population (trying to sidestep the word "propaganda" although that is what it would be).
Either the population becomes smart enough to ameliorate unreasoned shifts in culture on an individual basis or the populace entrusts that responsibility to someone over them.
In-line edit: I guess there is also the possibility of a sort of "herd immunity", where enough educated individuals are countering misinformation and overreactions in their community to achieve the same effect.
Hard to say. I think anyone trying to force anything on a society usually deserves to be shot into the sun. Maybe the only morally flawless way to create a better world is to expand your (impersonal) own circle of empathy to its maximum, and when you get a chance, try to help others to do the same.
i am one generation too late to get dual citizenship in finland via bloodline, and i will never get over that. i hate it here
You are not too late, you can still get finnish citizenship the same way as every other immigrant: you have to live there for 8 years, and learn the beautiful agglutinative language!
https://migri.fi/en/citizenship-for-adults
Yay, new word for me!
i would loooove to learn the language but it is daunting. i know one phrase i learned from my granpa, i know how to ask what time it is. lol
Perkele
Torille
Peppu
If you’ve heard the language spoken to you as a child, you might be surprised by your ability to learn it.
i didnt, and i no longer have the time or energy to devote to it :(
I read moving to Finland is really difficult now. They simply don't hire immigrants.
If your parents acquire citizenship would you not be fewer generations removed?
sure but they are maga who think america is the best country ever, so they would never consider it and would fucking flip if i mentioned wanting to leave lol
Rip
Then there are people like me whose ancestors came here before the Civil War. My last name comes from a German immigrant who came here during the German 1848 revolution.
Can… can I move to southern Europe?
Quick reminder that if you have german ancestors that had to flee the nazis, you can claim their citizenship back. Once you got the german passport the whole EU allows you to be a resident.
My stupid ancestors moved here like 6 generations ago. 😞
You can still apply for immigration. If you're lgbtq maybe even asylum at this point idk
Probably?
https://relocate.me/blog/relocation-advice/moving-to-europe-steps/
Assuming you're a privileged white person with an employer who is willing to fill out paperwork and vouch for you with the government before they've even hired you and aren't trying to stay permanently
It's not as bad as you think. I know many people who moved here (Germany) from outside the EU and are now on their way to citizenship or already have it.
You don't have to be a "privileged white person" for that either.
The thousands of African immigrants crossing the see in boats, getting jobs and residency permits would like to disagree with you.
Spain has massively increased it's population. Even though the birthrate is below replacement level. All of that is immigration.
You can move to basically anywhere. Most countries offer legal immigration paths. Some are of course harder than others, but it's possible.
Especially if you are highly skilled. Such as a medical doctor.
Countries love already educated professionals, since they basically get all the benefit of a fully working adult without the downside of paying for its childcare or education.
And even if low educated, most first world countries want low educated foreigners that can do the "dirty" physical work that the locals don't want to do, such as construction.
as a fellow american stuck here until i hit the lotto - best we can do is an occasional debt filled trip to the hospital.
It's really just laughing at us at this point.
There is very little chance of most of us escaping to Europe. Every program that I've looked at for moving over there has been entirely closed within a day or two due to the amount of applications being sent in.
Your mind is under control, your defeatism is maxed out
Check this out
If you're a U.S. citizen, you can move to the Netherlands under the Dutch-American Friendship Treaty (DAFT). You need to start or register a business in the Netherlands (freelancing counts), maintain at least €4,500 in the business, and apply for a DAFT residence permit. The permit is initially granted for 2 years and can be renewed as long as you're actively running the business. It's one of the easiest ways for Americans to legally live in the Netherlands as a self-employed person.
Check your family tree! Some countries grant you citizenship automatically if you have, or had, a relative who holds citizenship
Just got back from southern France. Yeah this lifestyle here is bullshit.
Americans, 20+ years ago I joined the Peace Corps. Extended, spent 3 years in a wild, amazing place in West Africa. Met my spouse, loved the experience. Strongly recommend. Over the last 20+ years, been out of the States for 10+. It's a springboard.
Right now, recruitment is down. A lot. The bar is citizenship, be 20-something (technically 18, but you need some something experience and not really fresh from high school), and don't have a totally jacked up body. You won't be doing shit for sleepy T, like how I didn't do shit for W.
You want Southern Europe? SE Europe is awesome. Albania, Kosovo, MKD, all options. Also Moldova, if you like wine. So are Armenia and Georgia, which are also amazing.
The option is there and real. Free to apply.
"The Volunteer appears to be someone with nothing to do; his skills are not utilized and the community doesn’t know what he has to offer in the way of help.”
Sorry, so you have one quote from somewhere on a libertarian thinkintank and that's....a demonstration of bias? What are you trying to say wit this very out of context, zero evidence missive?
It's neo-colonialsm in as much as letting people who know about American only through Tik Tok or facebook meet a real one and ask about things.
I had to talk to a lot of people about why "George Bush, strong man!" and why that was not true. Then he bombed Iraq and when they then asked "Does...George Bush hate muslims? But...we're Muslim! Is he going to bomb us?" I also eventually left and educated a lot of people in the US about how all those "evl, terrible muslims" are, in fact, not evil or terrible."
One third of the goals are to share the experiences you have with the US. I'd love to hear how that's neocolonialsm.
I'm glad you had a nice time. i wasn't there, so i can't speak on the conversations you had. i do think that the US government wouldn't pay for people to go abroad if it wasn't getting something out of the deal, but maybe you stuck it to the man and weakened the US empire's grip
Fair point.
First off, the Peace Corps budget is tiny compared to most other federal agencies, at around $430 million a year right now. When I was serving, we liked to tell people that the US Army Band had a budget the size of our entire country program, which supported 120 volunteers and employed dozens of local staff members. Many of whom had advanced degrees and managed the American volunteers. I only got $4 a day because living at a local level is part of the job description. So it's not salaries overseas that drive the budget. Maybe the DC ones, if anything. It was simply too small to get DOGEd, and DOGE fell apart before they got down to the smaller agencies.
Second, yes, it's absolutely a form of soft power. That's a very up front, stated goal - the stated 3 goals are 1) Do development work as requested by the host country (formerly towards a goal of world peace and friendship), 2) be Americans overseas and talk about being an American, and 3) come back to the US and tell Americans about what you did and saw and experienced. So Goal 2 is literally to be present, and be you. There are some real rules, like don't attend local protests or actively campaign regarding US elections (per the Hatch Act, which applies to federal employees and members of the military as well), and a few others that make sense. At no point was I, or any volunteer ever told to pass along USG talking points. Most of us spent a lot of time shit-talking W, so if it's some grand conspiracy for that, they forgot to tell me and nearly everyone else I served with. It's often a bunch of crunchy granola super liberal people in the first place, and what few conservatives make their way in, often see real life and turn pretty lefty and activist-oriented afterwards.
And all of this wasn't even Kennedy's idea. The UK's VSO proved the point that there was demand for something like that in the US, and Kennedy took the idea (willingly) from university students during his campaign and ran with it.
It's worth also knowing that Peace Corps programs are only in countries that ask for them. They take years of work to identify sectors of work and which government ministries to work with, etc. before anyone ever gets on a plane. Communities are asked, and often go out of their way to request volunteers work with them. Some gringo doesn't just show up one day demanding things. Every single day I was working with people on things they wanted to do. The community where I lived tasked me with things, and I would try and find info for them and get something going. If I found promising ideas, I would bring them back and ask people what they thought. We did a whole village-wide assessment of potential projects, because without community buy-in, most ideas fall apart quickly.
I know you really wanted to shit on this for no reason other than lack of knowledge about it. Not that it's above criticism. There's things to fix or modernize. Funding projects is still a massive pain, and worse now. But name one thing that's perfect anywhere, though, right? If anyone thought it was perfect, that's a red flag all on its own.
That gets you out of the US temporarily but that won't get you permanent status
Good thing fascists are always so nice to disabled people /s
Pretty fucked if all we take in is needy people
Don't blame us for the machine chewing you guys up
It's sad sure but very entitled of you to think countries just open their wallets to the people that got wrecked and only then attempt to seek greener pastures. It's up to your government to support you. I'm sorry.
Two years, extendable up to five, ain't nothing.
While you get fluent in another language.
While you learn all about another culture.
While you look for a job or figure out grad school or whatever your next steps are.
One of the women I served with was legally blind. Disability isn't even a deal breaker.
I appreciate the optimism and recognize that people going through shit need to hear that kind of thing, but the fact is that immigrating anywhere is way way tougher than it needs to be, and lots of people won't be able to at all because they were born in the wrong country, or just don't have the money or connections required.
I'm not saying that anyone who's trying to make the journey should give up, I'm saying that all of the rest of us should be demanding our rulers make this less of a struggle
First off, I'm not talking about immigrating.
I'm talking about joining a volunteer program where the government pays for a person to be somewhere outside the US, get trained, improve skills, and do work to help other people. Clever people can use that as an opportunity to be out for as long as you want. Grad school in the UK could be next, or some other job. It's a lot easier to get a job outside the US when you're already out.
If people would stop voting for conservatives we could all have better lives.
I lived in Southern Europe for 2 years back in 2002 and it was without a doubt the best time of my life.
During those two years in 2002, how many times did you travel backwards in time to avoid 2003?
Moved to Scandinavia. That's completely accurate in my experience
School closed early due to heat today. So I dropped a line in work slack, picked up my kid and went swimming in a great open air pool for 4.50. Europe is wonderful place to live.
And it's not even southern.
London?
Nope. Also LoNdOn Is NoT EuRoPe!
Life in Velen vs. life in Toussaint.
Then they need to grieve the time spent grieving over a time, that they didn't know they could be grieving about.
Southern Europe just means Spain and Portugal to me. Maybe Greece and Sicily too.
I travel for work a lot, and the vibe truely is different in Europe in general, it's not just rich folks.
Two-stick morality: one stick has a carrot on it, the other is just a stick.
Recovery takes 3-4 years.
Wait... When was there euphoria.
But what about da freedums?
Can't glorify the nazi's in most European countries... So, yeah. 1984