He could have a weapon or be emotionally unstable. That's what I think of first, though the point is 100% valid. See the discussion on HN two days ago about the danger of dating a cop's ex. Sucks to be anyone who isn't a cis white male in america, which sucks (said the cis white male in USA). We're terrible.
I just think sexisim from either direction is not constructive to a healthy dialogue. Also, This popped up in the Lemmy.world feed, so perhaps tis you that should mind the p's and q's. perhaps
Maybe but Lemmy sucks without browsing all, it just doesn't have enough content and I never remember to check which sub I'm commenting in because it hasn't really mattered until now.
Anyway I won't comment here again now that I'm aware of the rules
Oh no, you might have to make an effort to tailor your experience on Lemmy and respect a women’s group?
I always check the comm I’m in. It provides context for the post I’m viewing. A post in news is going to be different than a post in shitposting. With different rules.
You just had to leave this comment despite not adding to the conversation at all and you knew you were breaking the rules here. Unnecessary frankly.
no, but operating under the presumption that all men are creeps is. Misandry is no better than Misogyny. There are plenty of reasonable and perfectly innocent motivations that men might approach a woman to talk. All I'm suggesting is that ladies should at least let guys express that motivation before dropping that line. If the dude legit gives the ick, hey go for it. But he could be just be trying to return something you dropped or informing you that a cop is giving you car a parking ticket, etc. (just examples) Shutting the guy down immediately is just plain rude.
The premise is that the man is harassing the woman, or did you miss that part? Again, there are rules for this community. If you can't follow them, don't engage.
Is it respect or fear? Maybe it's because a man feeling like his social status is being threatened by the possibility of 'having his woman stolen from him' is quite possibly stupid enough to initiate deadly violence over it, while a harassed woman is much less likely to initiate violence, and might even just acquiesce out of fear of his possible violence.
Well, partially facetious here (although it really is a problem) but men are notoriously much higher in statistical likelihood to inflict violence upon you so if she indicates there's one of them around it's kind of a public service announcement. Sort of like saying "I'm sick and it's very contagious, please keep your distance and do not interact with me for the sake of your own safety".
Likewise it's okay to grimace sympathetically and offer your condolences for this terrible burden afflicting her life and wish her to stay safe and get through it without lasting injury!
This, right here. I've had a couple of male partners who were very temporary burdens. Most have been fine to great, and the one I've been with for well over 20 years is a gem.
"Passing" is a tool of the oppressor, plenty of cis women don"t "pass" (see every article of terfs harassing toilet usage), fuckit, let's go find you a nice gf.
I should clarify that passing is not a roadblock for me in regards to dating. Firstly, I wouldn't want to just ask some random person out; I'd wanna be friends first. Second, I wouldn't want to date anyone who's dating me for my appearence (which is good, since no one would ever do that lol).
I know it's stupid. Passing is just another unrealistic beauty standard. However, other women don't always immediately recognise me as a non-threat, and that's due to not "passing".
There’s a really lovely conversation further in this thread that dives into the intricacies of asking someone out and finding people to date without overstepping boundaries. I’d really recommend reading through it!
I'm not really looking for a relationship, so it isn't very relevent for me. I think I'm simply too selfish with my time to dedicate much of it to a partner, despite really wanting one.
I retract my earlier statement, how are you on cats? I know a very polite ginger with a lovely singing voice and an extremely wiggly tail.
(I lie, he has a vocal wail that sounds like a neurotic car braking around a corner and the single most naked looking anus I've ever seen on a mammal - but he IS very polite and friendly and looks like he's perpetually wearing footy pyjamas.
Ok he also likes to suck his own penis but we've all been teenagers, don't judge)
Awww! He sounds like a real cutie, if a bit odd :p
Mine's a scrawny lil tortie tux. Got her from some old neighbors. She's the sweetest darned thing in the world, but she gets suuuuuper anxious sometimes :/ She has a phermone diffuser and a water fountain because of being particular. I wuv her so much :3
My kitty also has a roommate, who is NOT my cat, but rather my sister's. She is very different from mine. She's large, she's a bully (to my cat), and she's a real trouble-maker, too. She's a medium-length black tux.
Torties are sooo neurotic i s2g. We have a 14 year old who was literally born into my hands, never had a bad day in her life, still wigs out at a shoe under a coffee table
(Sam and his brother Max are both rescues. And originally either from a feral colony or a really messed up breeder)
I mean, completely understandable you don't want a partner. Personally from my experience, asking someone out just like that is crazy to me.. People should just be nice, make friendships and see with time if something naturally comes out of it - and if not at least you have close friends and meaningful relations. That's kind of the only way for me to survive in this whole dating culture, without making anyone uncomfortable, and it worked out perfectly for me and now I am in a very happy and healthy relationship ^^
Well I suppose that's one way to look at it, but really what's happening is that they respect the fact that you're not single nor available, so they RESPECTFULLY back off.
Respectfully? They're already harassing, did you read the text? Shall i fetch you glasses? There is no respect to the woman here, only respect to the "ownership" of another male
You seem to be unaware, but a woman existing is not a fucking invite for you to hit on her in the first place
Is that why I have had to lie? Its not repectfully backing off. Its boundry pushing- to a point until youre telling them you have a man in your life even if you dont. It's not that they respect you for being taken so they back off, its fear your man gonna come out swinging at them.
The ones who don't fear this, will keep going at it even if you tell them you have a man.
A man who respects, takes the first.. at most the second "no thank you" and leaves it.
Well men are just horny, so when a woman says she has a girlfriend, he gets double hornier. But if she says she has a boyfriend, that's the ultimate shield and he backs off.
I'm a man and I just don't understand this. I want someone who wants me back. I leave lesbians alone when it comes to flirting/romance, I don't understand other men's fascination with them.
The point is that it doesn't work the exact same if you just say, you're not interested. Countless women, myself included, have made this experience. "Not interested" is met with "why not?", " come oooon" "am I that ugly?" and "just give me a chance".
You can either spend 15 minutes saying " no" in varying degrees of politeness or 2 seconds saying "I have a boyfriend".
It's always the worst ones that ruin it for everyone.
Also paradoxically the ones you want approaching you are more cautious about it or don't approach so they don't get grouped in with creeps like this. It selects for the people who approach women to be more creepy which makes the whole problem worse...
"Wahhh i walked into a community that didnt cater to me and started shitting on a post about harassment and now i'm being told my behaviour wasn't good and this community won't cater to me you are all MEAN and SEXIST"
Fucking just admit you saw the image, thought it was a shitpost and acted accordingly. Throwing a gigantic tantrum just makes you look like a jackass.
As an aside, telling men "no" does not always work. Sometimes women do need to resort to saying they're "owned" by another man for men like this to back off. Because ultimately men like this do not see women as people that deserve respect, they view women as objects.
Just something to think about next time you want to believe all men are good and respectful.
Women only… trans women are women, and transphobic or gender critical talk isn’t allowed. Anyone under the trans umbrella (e.g. non-binary, bigender, agender) is free to decide whether a women’s community is a good fit for them.
That's not the take away I would make. If a woman tells me “I have a boyfriend” when I ask “where is the milk aisle”, I would just conclude that this conversation is going nowhere and move on.
Why is your first assumption "she's not being hit on"
She literally tells you she is being harassed, right there in the text, nothing else, just "being harassed" and your first instinct is "nope, didn't happen" on the basis of absolutely nothing.
You see a girl you're attracted to and you're single. You try some way to shoot your shot, get noticed, whatever, and try to make some sort of connection and it generally goes one of three ways.
She's interested and it works.
She's intrigued but act like she's not.
She's not interested.
Regardless of which of the above is your scenario, if a girl immediately says, "I have a boyfriend," with no other response, then unfortunately you've fallen into that third category.
Surprisingly, I've fallen into that second category a few times when I thought she wasn't interested and then in speaking to them later, I was asked why didn't I try harder.
I've also fallen into that third category a bunch.
The original post is a valid point, but I think it's lacking context. Relationships and dating is messy.
My read was that it was about people harassing you, not just striking up a conversation and being polite. If you're one of the polite ones (not harassing women), I don't believe the meme is talking about you.
I am very gay, and I have no problems with men talking to me and asking me out. Lots of fellas are nice and will back off respectfully when I turn them down. It does not bother me to learn that someone thinks I am attractive. (It's because I am, lol.)
However, it happens too often that there are men that are NOT respectful and WILL NOT take no as an answer. (Unless there is another man that has a say.) There are signs that can indicate that men will be like this, but it can be at times hard to tell.
Because of the potential danger, I completely understand why women will treat the situation as a threatening one and try to de-escalate ahead of time.
I wouldn't find someone that expects me to disrespect boundaries to be suitable dating material. I think you avoided a bad situation there.
I have found the most dating success not in random encounters, but starting from friendships/shared interests anyway.
If you are looking for a relationship, I wish you the best of luck!
Relationships and dating are messy, but i have a question for you:
Is it more important for you to signal that you are attracted to this woman you've never interacted with, or is it more important to just strike up a standard conversation and treat her like any stranger you meet?
In my experience as a woman, men often don't realize that they are very clearly signaling their sexual attraction/view of this woman as a romantic prospect, which doesn't seem like much of an issue except for the fact that you've never actually spoken to this woman.
Ergo, the woman is fully aware you are attracted to her and view her as a prospect purely because of how she looks -- this is objectification as you have no idea whether you are compatible.
You are far likely to get a positive response if you treat her like literally any other person and not a prospect. We don't like being objectified by strangers, but we don't mind making new friends. Save the romance for after the first conversation at the very least.
This is not me telling you youre doing anything wrong, but im pointing out something a lot of men do not even realize they are doing when they approach a woman. We can usually see men's intentions, they are not good at hiding them. Change your intentions from "i wanna date this woman" to "id like to see if this person is down for a conversation".
Social media is so weird. There's nothing more normal than flirting with people because you're attracted to them but of course redditors/lemmings need to overthink everything
To me the entire point of flirting is to have fun while getting to know someone, just blindly calling someone hot isn't really how flirting works IME, at least it's not how I do it.
Ergo, the woman is fully aware you are attracted to her and view her as a prospect purely because of how she looks – this is objectification as you have no idea whether you are compatible.
This. THIS RIGHT FUCKING HERE.
All my fucking life I've had people come on to me because "I'm their sexual fetish" (read: Asian). Many of them have actually come out and said that in those words thinking, somehow, that this was going to be flattering to me, not something that would instantly put my hand near one of my knives just in case.
Interact with people socially. Find shared interests. Do things together without the whole sex thing hanging between you. And you know what? If you come across right, you'll get laid. Even if you're not conventionally attractive.
If you come across as only being interested in me for my shape, my ethnicity, and where you can place which appendages in which receptacles, however, I don't give a flying fuck how hot you look or not. You're not getting anywhere near me. (I mean unless I'm cruising a pick-up joint, in which case being there is the signal that I'm available, duh.)
This comment sat weirdly with me for a minute. I am not saying you are incorrect. I just think there is some conceptual friction.
I think the issue is inserting "dating" in the path of "sexual attraction," and not just with your comment. Dating and sex are tied together in a way that rubs me the wrong way because it gatekeeps "sex" behind "relationship" in a way that isn't equally distributed, culturally. It doesn't freely offer the "one-night stand" to all genders. And I don't think you can cleanly say "all men are happy with one-night stands, and all women are against one-night stands."
You don't need to know what someone's favorite movie is to think they're hot. And you don't need to know whether they have any siblings to have sex with them. However, there does seem to be some expectation that men won't provide the necessary intimacy for good sex unless they're committed in a relationship. And it also assumes women are already primed and ready throw everything, emotionally, into a relationship at the drop of the pants.
The only things you need to have (good) sex with someone is: physical compatibility, so the bits interact in ways that feels good for all participants; and social compatibility, insofar as being able to smoothly communicate. All participants need to be able to view the other people as active contributors, to ask and accede to their boundaries and desires while also properly expressing their own.
I think the assumption/fear of "objectification" is valid. I'm aware you are a woman sharing a woman's perspective of "courtship," and I don't want to appear to or actually dismiss you out of hand. But I wonder how much of the reticence toward sexual openness is some residual patriarchal fear of being seen as "libertine."
This is a TL;DR that just came to me: "viewing someone as sexual is only objectification if the assumption is the person is being used for sex instead of having sex with them."
I don’t think you can cleanly say “all men are happy with one-night stands, and all women are against one-night stands.”
Any statement that begins with "all " is 99.44% likely to be incorrect. That being said, men are far more prone to be interested in one-night stands than women are. Are women sometimes interested in one-night stands? FUCK yes! I'd suspect every woman on Earth has had a moment where they at least very seriously entertained (if not actually took) the possibility of a one-night or a short-term fuck-fest. (I spent two weeks on a holiday shacked up with a guy I met on the plane there. Never saw nor heard from him again and I'm fine with that.) But I'd also suspect a whole lot more men entertain this possibility a whole lot more frequently. This has to do with the fact that men don't bear the biological costs of childbirth; the risk analysis is entirely different.
So on the whole I think it's perfectly safe to assume that men are far more interested in (and far more likely to participate in) casual sex than women. Just #NotAllMen.
You make some really good points that are really good in conjunction with, but don't fully dispute my point.
I like that you point out that sexual attraction and a dating connection are different though not mutually exclusive. I also like that you brought up female sexual liberation and the assumption that most women don't want one night stands (they very often do!).
I guess I'll clarify my initial point. I think a lot of men grow up thinking women are very different from them, so they add all this extra pressure on themselves specifically on interactions with women, and women can generally tell. I guess what I'm truly trying to say here is that putting women you've never met on a pedestal (eg. She's so pretty, I have to tell her how beautiful I think she looks or use the perfect pickup line so this beautiful woman will go on a date with me) is just another form of objectification.
To give personal anecdotal context just so you can fully grasp the feeling im frustrated with: I'm weird. I'm fairly attractive and I do get approached, but i am fucking weird. I do not want a man who does not know me to approach me telling me how beautiful he thinks I am, expecting to get my number, because I know damn well that there's a high chance that if I give it to him, he will quickly realize how fucking weird I am and ghost me.
I don't mind if somebody says "hey I really like your band shirt/your shoes/your hat, etc." -- or my jacket with my patches on (always a great convo starter) -- always love when somebody likes a band i also like! But this means its an open conversation with no assumptions being made.
Basically, have a full conversation with me before you ask for my number, then we can see where this could go. I intentionally show my weird very quickly in conversation so people know what they are getting into.
So yeah, I don't think you're wrong, but I do think potential dating/sex/friendships can be approached all the same, unassuming way. People are people, and I don't wanna give my number to somebody I've never spoken to because he thinks I'm pretty. Please give me a better reason to continue interacting basically.
She's so pretty, I have to tell her how beautiful I think she looks or use the perfect pickup line so this beautiful woman will go on a date with me
Is that not idolization more then objectification? Certainly, for some guys as with everything, it's objectification but I cannot believe that a majority of men see the woman in that situation as a vagina and nothing else.
But like, you idolize human beings. Not objects. Alternatively you could say that you idol worship with gods and goddess. Neither of which seem negative.
Basically, have a full conversation with me before you ask for my number, then we can see where this could go.
This, I fully agree with. I wasn't seeing the situation where someone sees you and says "give me your phone number" because that seems insane to me. Yeah, some positive conversation should happen before people go around demanding semi-permanent means of contact. Beyond niceties, that's just unsafe with the unfortunate likelihood of some psycho digging into your socials.
Right?! It is absolutely insane, but so many guys will do that. There are so many things guys do that other guys don't believe because they're fuckin insane things to do lol
It is absolutely insane, but so many guys will do that.
There's a whole bunch of literally insane things guys will do thinking it's going to get them laid. I don't know where they learn it from that this works given how often they seem to get told to piss off.
Yeah, a lot of people have incomprehensible, arcane rules to dating and attraction that you'll never suss out unless you are who they're trying to attract.
This is totally true too. Each person is an individual and there is no advice that will work to get everyone's attention. Sometimes people just don't want to be approached, even if you do everything "right".
I vet what you are saying, but also if you are out looking for a relationship, you are kind of looking for physical, mental, and emotional compatability.
Telling someone "I think you are hot" is not necesarily objectifying them. It may just be saying "There are three hurdles here (maybe more) and this one here, that is a foot tall that is extremely easy to step over, has been stepped."
Suggesting its always objectifying eliminates the prospect that they are just trying to get to the next, much harder hurdles.
Hey! I just responded to another comment that qarbone made and I think it adequately covers a lot of this stuff too.
I'm very much not trying to say it's always intended to be objectifying, but that it feels objectifying when somebody leads with that, because people are more than that. And if you are trying to strike up a conversation with a woman, considering how something feels to her, regardless of your intention, is important because it will dictate her response.
To me, a man I've never met approaching me saying "I think you are hot" reads to me like "I saw you and I covet you, and I don't care much about your substance."
You are allowed to think a woman is hot, but perhaps don't lead with it because it signals that is the only reason why you are talking to her, regardless of if that is true or not.
Women are often very intentional with their fashion, so a tried and true way of striking up a convo in an unassuming way is to comment/compliment on a choice they made
Example: "I really like your shirt/bag/shoes/jacket, etc., it looks really cool!/goes really well with your outfit!" (Make note of the adjectives. Do not call a stranger hot/sexy/etc. In the first sentence - that puts unneeded pressure on the interaction because we do not know what kind of guy you are - keep the compliment neutral, like how you'd compliment a guy)
It's important to note that your intentions do not matter if they do not match your perceived intentions.
To me, a man I've never met approaching me saying "I think you are hot" reads to me like "I saw you and I covet you, and I don't care much about your substance."
This is it exactly. A man I’ve never met saying that is way different than someone you know saying it. Like, I replied to one of Velma’s comments that an outfit she described looked hot, but I’ve also interacted with her multiple times and I’m not some strange dude walking up out of the blue to say that.
Absolutely! Your existing rapport with a person really informs what is acceptable socially going forward. My friends and I are extremely flirty with each other, but that takes into account that we know each other and we know what is acceptable and we know that the other person will inform us if we've gone too far.
When you're a stranger, however, all bets are off as far as what's acceptable goes, so it's important to make sure you're representing your intentions honestly, accounting for the other person's perspective as well.
I'll also add that context matters too. How you hit on someone at a music festival is vitally different from how you hit on them at a community potluck. I've had success flirting with a woman I hadn't met before by complimenting how her boobs looked in the corset she was wearing, but had I not been in an event where sexual forwardness, including between women, is normal. To make a comment like that basically anywhere else would be mortifying.
Generally try to err on the side of respectful, but learning what are normal and acceptable styles of flirtation and general interaction in a space is part of hitting on people in that space.
You make a super good point and I don't know why I didn't think of that in my initial comment!
Context in setting is soooo important. When I was typing out my intial comment I totally just had a vision in my head of being out in the general public, at a bar, grocery store, bus stop, mall, etc. I didn't even think about music festivals!
That being said, there seems to be a pretty good general consensus about, well, consent and the understanding thereof, at least at the festivals I attend regularly.
But no you are totally correct in that there is a time and place for that kind of assumed rapport (if that wording makes sense) based on the specific community's unwritten social rules. I've even directly experienced this so I don't know how I glossed over it, so thank you for making that point!
I'm not trying to be a shithead, but that almost sounds like you have a subconscious notion that you are an object. Patriarchy and such beating it into your head or whatever, but if you interpret so many things as saying that you are an object, it doesn't seem like it's based in reality.
Maybe put another way, the man would almost certainly, in his own head, truly not believe that is what he is conveying, and is not trying to imply that. By reading that into it, you are the one adding that context to the situation.
In some cases, at least. Certainly, many men are shit and do intentionally do that.
The patriarchy is the framework that allows and reinforces the idea that women are commodities, that we are objects for men to own, but it’s all in our heads and we are arbitrarily choosing to interpret men’s harassment as objectification?
Did I get that right?
Approaching a woman with “I think you’re hot” isn’t really up for debate whether it’s objectifying. Even if the man using that phrase doesn’t think he’s objectifying the woman he is trying to court, commenting specifically on her appearance in relation to what he wants is pretty clear.
Edit: it’s like you didn’t even read their last sentence-
It's important to note that your intentions do not matter if they do not match your perceived intentions.
So if I perceive that every human that gets within 2 ft of me is attempting to murder me, it's their fault?
How is "I think you are hot" objectifying when "hot" is a descriptor of a human beings qualities? You got call a house hot. Or a train. I suppose there is hot rod but I am pretty sure that came from a different definition of hot and not attraction.
I just don't understand how you could perceive it as objectifying by default.
because hot means "youre really attractive when I look at you" here. You dont know what they like, they dont know their hobbys, their style of humor, only what they look like. That is the difference.
If you said, "you know I find you to be really hot when your wit is so quick" its different.
Ive told my husband, "Youre so hot when youre getting excited over basketball cards" cuz, he is, im not objectifying him. His personality is what makes him hot, not his giant cock.
Also, telling someone youve known as a person for a time, like talked to them before, know them already a bit, hot is less off putting and random, than a person you just met. A person you just met the only thing you can call them hot for is how they look. Thats objectifying.
I’m going to respectfully stop this conversation here. Not because I can’t explain how men can objectify women and why women can pick up on when men want to fuck us vs befriending us, but because it won’t be productive and this isn’t the community to do so.
I’m a similar way. I think what you put out is what you attract, generally.
So if you’re being flirty and super forward with a stranger, the ones that bite probably aren’t thinking too far beyond looks and vibes either. Higher chance of it becoming a casual or short-term engagement.
So if you’re being flirty and super forward with a stranger, the ones that bite probably aren’t thinking too far beyond looks and vibes either.
Define "flirty" here. I've seen conventionally attractive women described as "flirty" for being just, you know, generally friendly. And yet women who are not conventionally attractive doing the same thing aren't called "flirty".
It's kind of a landmine that one is. If I smile, am I flirting? If I laugh at a joke, am I flirting? If I show off a new outfit spinning in place, am I flirting?
Then there's "super forward". I'm a social builder. In any social group I look for the people being left out and try to ensure they have an invite into joining things. (If they really don't want to I back off, natch.) So if I approach you at a party where you're just looking around like you have no idea what you're doing, introduce myself, start asking questions ... is that me being "super forward" or me quickly assessing where you'd fit in best so you don't feel isolated and alone in the group?
It's probably not a good idea to call someone "flirty" and "super forward" without reading very carefully why you think either is the case. Wait for the bodily contact, the smoking look-overs, the slow lick of the lips or such first.
In any social group I look for the people being left out and try to ensure they have an invite into joining things. (If they really don't want to I back off, natch.)
As an introvert who likes being around people, I just want to say thank you for doing this type of thing. I enjoy hanging out with people but breaking the ice and talking can be hard.
Thing is, I'm an introvert. I know how hard it is to be on the outside looking in, desperately wanting to be involved but not knowing how.
It took literally DECADES of hard effort for me to force myself through that barrier. I want to make that barrier a lot lower for others so they don't have to be like I was.
It’s super appreciated. I did that in my 20s, broke myself out of my shell and started going out doing stuff with random folks. But I stopped that after I was out of commission for a year (fuck drunk drivers), then Covid hit and I am now 40 trying to break out of my shell again lol
So in general im not saying it never works to approach somebody telling them they're hot, but you really cannot fault a woman for not liking it because there are tons of valid reasons not to. Mostly I'm annoyed at guys who only do this and hate women for responding in a way they do not like, or claim women do not like them when they've literally never tried anything else and refuse to listen to women when they tell them how they want to be approached.
But fuck ya if you're a slutty man at a party and wanna put out flirty slut vibes to find a slutty woman, I'm sure you'll find one (hell, you'll likely get approached!). As long as everyone's being honest, yknow.
I have a pathological fear of making anyone's day worse unless they give me a very good reason. I probably do need to work on that somewhat, but I also think many people feel too entitled to others' time.
My point is treat women like you're trying to make a friend, not like a person you are trying to date because you don't know enough about them as a person to even know if there will be a connection.
If you'd approach people you don't know for dates but not friendship, that's your own problem and maybe something to work on.
Women don't want to be liked for how they look, they want to be liked for who they are.
Women don’t want to be liked for how they look, they want to be liked for who they are.
Hard disagree here. I love being liked for how I look.
I just don't put out because you say I look nice. It's a foot in the door at best, and only if you praise it in ways that don't come across like you're viewing me as a slab of meat with orifices.
Wanted to drop in and say I really appreciate your patient and well crafted responses in this thread! You get your points across in such an easy to read way. I really enjoyed the back and forth you had with others here :)
Edit: i see you edited your comment, but ill leave mine as-is because it could be useful to somebody
I actually talk to strangers super often lol. I really like metal music so, for example: I saw a guy at my gym with a Cannibal Corpse tshirt and I just said "hey man, by the way, I really like your shirt", and now we say hi when we see each other.
I have another male friend at the gym who literally approached me and said "wow, you lift heavy" (note that you can absolutely say this to a man, this is not a gender specific comment) - I enjoyed that interaction, it was honestly great and made me feel good because it was clear that I was working hard and it was a recognition of that work. It felt like respect.
I talk to strangers at concerts A LOT, especially when out for a smoke (great place to meet new people, you don't even have to smoke).
It's important to have an end to the convo built into your greeting, because you can gauge pretty easily whether somebody wants to continue talking based on their response. If you have these little interactions frequently enough, people that share public spaces with you will just start to recognize you.
Idk I've been doing this forever and I didn't think it was that foreign a concept to people. Maybe it depends on where you're from.
If there is a perfect woman out there, I think I have found her. Pity I'm in a committed, very long term relationship. 🤭
(In my case, music-head, but metal is a large part of that. And I lift. Though I only lift heavy on leg day. My arms stubbornly remain cooked noodles after years.)
Could be that she sees potential but needs more interaction to determine if what she sees is real or a play. Many men put on airs and then drop them after a time. Could be she has many things going on and needs to cull the attention for a time. Could be she has been told by mentors that being too interested is perceived as easy or slutty. Many, many reasons to be attracted and act like you're not. Sometimes flirting involves a back and forth. No means no but thats not what the second category is talking about. Thats the third.
I don't think so. There are plenty of ways to signal you want to continue a conversation or see each other again without a "yes, let's fuck." Most reasonable suitors, in my experience, understand the context of "not yes, yet."
Edit: sorry, I'm juggling multiple threads. This basis was in a different thread, so this was not established.
We were not operating under the belief that "yes" meant "immediate fucking." It was "(openly) interested," "interested but feigning disinterest," and "uninterested." I'd say "signaling that you want to continue conversing with or seeing each other again" falls pretty squarely into "interested."
There is a possible disconnect between platonic and sexual or romantic interest even between the people talking but we're booking interest as interest.
Uhhh, did you just make up a fourth option and pretend I replied to that instead of the one I actually quoted?
It's right there, you know. Just centimeters above your very offended reply.
Also, as a woman, my experience with other women generally comes down to "ah, I'm not into women, sorry". Granted, I've been married for a decade now, so eh
Yup, if anything I think men try more when they hit on sapphic women. They're always so confident they can make us straight if we just gave them a chance.
I think you misunderstood. I meant saying "I have a girlfriend" as a woman to a man hitting on you doesn't have the same effect as "I have a boyfriend" in the same situation.
I wish it worked like that. The amount of times I’ve stated having a boyfriend just to be told, “He’s not here, so what he doesn’t know won’t hurt him” is disheartening.
Seriously don't know where men think they are going with this shit. Like they are entitled to a reasonable-in-their-eyes explanation as to why you won't immediately fall all over them. Just so gross.
It’s a bit tough for me when a guy approaches out of the blue and I’m unavailable for whatever reason. Like, let’s say purposefully taking the adjacent seat and starts chatting. And you know where this is headed and you’re thinking “oh crap… How do I handle this so as to not waste his time but also not be rude and assuming.” So then I’ll often end up with a tedious but friendly conversation I don’t necessarily want, bc his intentions aren’t explicitly clear, so therefore I can’t explicitly decline. 😅
But yes, “I have a boyfriend” ends it fairly quick lol. It’s nice to just be able to say that when that’s the case.
Some guys are clever and ask something like “are you here with anyone?” To which you can say, yeah my boyfriend. I always appreciate that!! Because it saves everyone’s time and for me, the stress of figuring out how to best handle the conversation. 😆
And you know where this is headed and you’re thinking “oh crap… How do I handle this so as to not waste his time but also not be rude and assuming.”
I hate this part - having to sit through their introduction and attempt at flirting with me before I've said more than "Hi".
But yes, “I have a boyfriend” ends it fairly quick lol. It’s nice to just be able to say that when that’s the case.
Recently had a man in his mid-60s attempt to pick me up while I was watching my kid in their swim lesson. Luckily telling stories about my husband was enough to get him to fuck off. It's not always enough though.
Ugh yes why do they do that?? The older man trying to hit on me also mentioned that his daughter was around my age. But I “looked good” for how old I was. Fucking gross.
Yeah I like to really gush to these types of men about how great he is, how supportive he is, how much I love him, and how often he likes to hit the gym hahahaha
I feel like choosing the seat next to you with the intent to talk to you already invades your space. I think you shouldn't need a reason to say that you'd rather not have some rando plop down next to you.
The phantom boyfriend might kick his ass. It's not respect, it is probably fear. Also they're seeking the path of least resistance. A lot easier to interview for a job opening than to try to interview for a job already filled. You do certainly see over-confident/desperate men try that tactic, but most predators are looking for an easy meal, not a competitor.
I’m married and wear a wedding ring, but I’m from a place that wears it on the left hand (so that’s what feels best to me) and I live in a place that wears it on the right.
He could have a weapon or be emotionally unstable. That's what I think of first, though the point is 100% valid. See the discussion on HN two days ago about the danger of dating a cop's ex. Sucks to be anyone who isn't a cis white male in america, which sucks (said the cis white male in USA). We're terrible.
Thanks so much for saying hi and for supporting us! We are women only so please don't comment again 🥰
You seem nice and supportive, so I'm not going to bite your head off.
But…
mam, this is an wendys and i need your order. Also you are in a drive thru.
or
"Great, he's taking one for the team I see."
Observation: it's sexist (and a little narccistic) to assume that all men want is to get into your pants if they need or want to interact with you.
I'm taking away your keyboard until you achieve basic reading comprehension
It's telling when this is your reaction to a meme where the premise is harassment. Imagine strolling into a women's community to gaslight them.
I just think sexisim from either direction is not constructive to a healthy dialogue. Also, This popped up in the Lemmy.world feed, so perhaps tis you that should mind the p's and q's. perhaps
Communities have rules. The rules here are:
It doesn't matter where you saw the community. You still abide by its rules. Unless you're a sociopath, naturally. Then you just get booted.
How do you check if they are women?
You mean you browse all communities at once without minding the different rules in place? Sounds like you ought to learn better manners.
Maybe but Lemmy sucks without browsing all, it just doesn't have enough content and I never remember to check which sub I'm commenting in because it hasn't really mattered until now.
Anyway I won't comment here again now that I'm aware of the rules
You say as you browse the content. You can subscribe to more than one community, there's no limit.
Oh no, you might have to make an effort to tailor your experience on Lemmy and respect a women’s group?
I always check the comm I’m in. It provides context for the post I’m viewing. A post in news is going to be different than a post in shitposting. With different rules.
You just had to leave this comment despite not adding to the conversation at all and you knew you were breaking the rules here. Unnecessary frankly.
Of course he had to! Women were talking back to the manly man! He can't have that!
It isn’t sexist to talk about how to handle the type of man that will harass women.
no, but operating under the presumption that all men are creeps is. Misandry is no better than Misogyny. There are plenty of reasonable and perfectly innocent motivations that men might approach a woman to talk. All I'm suggesting is that ladies should at least let guys express that motivation before dropping that line. If the dude legit gives the ick, hey go for it. But he could be just be trying to return something you dropped or informing you that a cop is giving you car a parking ticket, etc. (just examples) Shutting the guy down immediately is just plain rude.
An approach isn’t harassment. Did you read the meme? Because you certainly didn’t read the rules.
The premise is that the man is harassing the woman, or did you miss that part? Again, there are rules for this community. If you can't follow them, don't engage.
Is that how you define harassment? Drive thru orders and a sexist comment about fucking ugly women?
Great.
Please read the rules of this community.
Thanks so much for saying hi! We are women only ❤️
Is it respect or fear? Maybe it's because a man feeling like his social status is being threatened by the possibility of 'having his woman stolen from him' is quite possibly stupid enough to initiate deadly violence over it, while a harassed woman is much less likely to initiate violence, and might even just acquiesce out of fear of his possible violence.
Well, partially facetious here (although it really is a problem) but men are notoriously much higher in statistical likelihood to inflict violence upon you so if she indicates there's one of them around it's kind of a public service announcement. Sort of like saying "I'm sick and it's very contagious, please keep your distance and do not interact with me for the sake of your own safety".
Likewise it's okay to grimace sympathetically and offer your condolences for this terrible burden afflicting her life and wish her to stay safe and get through it without lasting injury!
My male partners are not terrible burdens afflicting my life. I love them deeply and they love me.
Men can be wonderful, caring, supportive partners. It's against the rules to generalize against any group here.
This, right here. I've had a couple of male partners who were very temporary burdens. Most have been fine to great, and the one I've been with for well over 20 years is a gem.
This is why I'd never attempt to flirt with a woman, or ask her out.
—A non-passing trans woman
"Passing" is a tool of the oppressor, plenty of cis women don"t "pass" (see every article of terfs harassing toilet usage), fuckit, let's go find you a nice gf.
I should clarify that passing is not a roadblock for me in regards to dating. Firstly, I wouldn't want to just ask some random person out; I'd wanna be friends first. Second, I wouldn't want to date anyone who's dating me for my appearence (which is good, since no one would ever do that lol).
I know it's stupid. Passing is just another unrealistic beauty standard. However, other women don't always immediately recognise me as a non-threat, and that's due to not "passing".
There’s a really lovely conversation further in this thread that dives into the intricacies of asking someone out and finding people to date without overstepping boundaries. I’d really recommend reading through it!
I'm not really looking for a relationship, so it isn't very relevent for me. I think I'm simply too selfish with my time to dedicate much of it to a partner, despite really wanting one.
I read it anyhow, though. I just love reading :3
I retract my earlier statement, how are you on cats? I know a very polite ginger with a lovely singing voice and an extremely wiggly tail.
(I lie, he has a vocal wail that sounds like a neurotic car braking around a corner and the single most naked looking anus I've ever seen on a mammal - but he IS very polite and friendly and looks like he's perpetually wearing footy pyjamas.
Ok he also likes to suck his own penis but we've all been teenagers, don't judge)
Awww! He sounds like a real cutie, if a bit odd :p
Mine's a scrawny lil tortie tux. Got her from some old neighbors. She's the sweetest darned thing in the world, but she gets suuuuuper anxious sometimes :/ She has a phermone diffuser and a water fountain because of being particular. I wuv her so much :3
My kitty also has a roommate, who is NOT my cat, but rather my sister's. She is very different from mine. She's large, she's a bully (to my cat), and she's a real trouble-maker, too. She's a medium-length black tux.
Torties are sooo neurotic i s2g. We have a 14 year old who was literally born into my hands, never had a bad day in her life, still wigs out at a shoe under a coffee table
(Sam and his brother Max are both rescues. And originally either from a feral colony or a really messed up breeder)
I mean, completely understandable you don't want a partner. Personally from my experience, asking someone out just like that is crazy to me.. People should just be nice, make friendships and see with time if something naturally comes out of it - and if not at least you have close friends and meaningful relations. That's kind of the only way for me to survive in this whole dating culture, without making anyone uncomfortable, and it worked out perfectly for me and now I am in a very happy and healthy relationship ^^
Oh, I defintely won't ever ask a complete stranger out. That would be... yeah, that'd be awful.
I did have one relationship (it was online; kinda cringe), and we started as (and still are!) good friends.
She was alright, but I don't think I want to spend much time on such things. I'm... regretful. I could've done so many better things with that time.
I just tell them I lost my vagina in the war.
Haaaaaahahahaha this one wins
Well I suppose that's one way to look at it, but really what's happening is that they respect the fact that you're not single nor available, so they RESPECTFULLY back off.
Respectfully? They're already harassing, did you read the text? Shall i fetch you glasses? There is no respect to the woman here, only respect to the "ownership" of another male
You seem to be unaware, but a woman existing is not a fucking invite for you to hit on her in the first place
Is that why I have had to lie? Its not repectfully backing off. Its boundry pushing- to a point until youre telling them you have a man in your life even if you dont. It's not that they respect you for being taken so they back off, its fear your man gonna come out swinging at them.
The ones who don't fear this, will keep going at it even if you tell them you have a man.
A man who respects, takes the first.. at most the second "no thank you" and leaves it.
If that was the case, "I have a girlfriend" should also work the same, but from my experience it never does.
Well men are just horny, so when a woman says she has a girlfriend, he gets double hornier. But if she says she has a boyfriend, that's the ultimate shield and he backs off.
Men are adult humans, they can control their arousal when told that someone isn't interested.
I sincerely believe men can behave better. I have many men in my life who do. The ones this post is about need to learn to do so
I'm a man and I just don't understand this. I want someone who wants me back. I leave lesbians alone when it comes to flirting/romance, I don't understand other men's fascination with them.
honestly, this feels pretty sexist towards men ngl
"men are just horny"
oh okay, every man is just horny guys, theyre all pervs so you should not let them know youre gay
/s for anyone in the back of the class
This is sarcasm, right?
So just exactly the opposite of your first comment?
What a weird take. How is he disrespecting her if she just says I'm not interested it would work the exact same
Women should chill out a bit I think.
The point is that it doesn't work the exact same if you just say, you're not interested. Countless women, myself included, have made this experience. "Not interested" is met with "why not?", " come oooon" "am I that ugly?" and "just give me a chance". You can either spend 15 minutes saying " no" in varying degrees of politeness or 2 seconds saying "I have a boyfriend".
It's always the worst ones that ruin it for everyone.
Also paradoxically the ones you want approaching you are more cautious about it or don't approach so they don't get grouped in with creeps like this. It selects for the people who approach women to be more creepy which makes the whole problem worse...
Apparently this is a sexist bubble so please allow me to fuck off and have a nice day. I'll be blocking y'all now. Thanks for replying.
"Wahhh i walked into a community that didnt cater to me and started shitting on a post about harassment and now i'm being told my behaviour wasn't good and this community won't cater to me you are all MEAN and SEXIST"
Fucking just admit you saw the image, thought it was a shitpost and acted accordingly. Throwing a gigantic tantrum just makes you look like a jackass.
Yeah fuck those idiots. But yelling leave me alone might make the good ones come out
Ok dude, please read the rules for the community now.
Nah? All I did was scroll my feed and react to an image
People are allowed to have wrong opinions then correct themselves no?
You've done so and you were never welcome here to begin with. Especially to tell all of us that we need to chill out when men harass us.
We've been super polite to you up until now. Please respect this space.
I have a girlfriend!
Fuck off yourselves
No one cares that you have a girlfriend.
The meme literally talks about when men harass women. But women need to chill out?
Please read the rules for this community.
Okay I admit I didn't read that. In that scenario I get you guys
As an aside, telling men "no" does not always work. Sometimes women do need to resort to saying they're "owned" by another man for men like this to back off. Because ultimately men like this do not see women as people that deserve respect, they view women as objects.
Just something to think about next time you want to believe all men are good and respectful.
I'm aware. I never want to intrude and women don't initiate in my country so I've got strong arms and a sad heart
If you were aware, you wouldn't assert that men would take a "no" the same way as "I have a boyfriend".
Read through the comments in this thread. There's quite a good discussion around approaching people with the intent to date.
Yes I get it yes this is the fourth comment now where I say allright fair enough yes
Read the fucking rules.
That's not the take away I would make. If a woman tells me “I have a boyfriend” when I ask “where is the milk aisle”, I would just conclude that this conversation is going nowhere and move on.
Why is your first assumption "she's not being hit on"
She literally tells you she is being harassed, right there in the text, nothing else, just "being harassed" and your first instinct is "nope, didn't happen" on the basis of absolutely nothing.
What the actual fuck is wrong with you
Are you harassing her to tell you where the milk aisle is?
“Hey baby. Got milk?”
Yeah the meme isn’t talking about casual encounters at the grocery store.
You are not a representative of all men.
Did you read the sidebar?
I've always found this tricky ground to walk on.
You see a girl you're attracted to and you're single. You try some way to shoot your shot, get noticed, whatever, and try to make some sort of connection and it generally goes one of three ways.
Regardless of which of the above is your scenario, if a girl immediately says, "I have a boyfriend," with no other response, then unfortunately you've fallen into that third category.
Surprisingly, I've fallen into that second category a few times when I thought she wasn't interested and then in speaking to them later, I was asked why didn't I try harder.
I've also fallen into that third category a bunch.
The original post is a valid point, but I think it's lacking context. Relationships and dating is messy.
just ask if she has a boyfriend
Wow, Kevin. Yeah, women fucking love being asked if we have a boyfriend so that you can proceed to harass us.
How did you scroll past of all of the comments giving context here and still post this dumbass comment?
this has worked very well for me many times. or simply asking for a number. its really just about eye contact
Have you read the rules for this community, Kevin?
My read was that it was about people harassing you, not just striking up a conversation and being polite. If you're one of the polite ones (not harassing women), I don't believe the meme is talking about you.
I am very gay, and I have no problems with men talking to me and asking me out. Lots of fellas are nice and will back off respectfully when I turn them down. It does not bother me to learn that someone thinks I am attractive. (It's because I am, lol.)
However, it happens too often that there are men that are NOT respectful and WILL NOT take no as an answer. (Unless there is another man that has a say.) There are signs that can indicate that men will be like this, but it can be at times hard to tell.
Because of the potential danger, I completely understand why women will treat the situation as a threatening one and try to de-escalate ahead of time.
I wouldn't find someone that expects me to disrespect boundaries to be suitable dating material. I think you avoided a bad situation there.
I have found the most dating success not in random encounters, but starting from friendships/shared interests anyway.
If you are looking for a relationship, I wish you the best of luck!
Relationships and dating are messy, but i have a question for you:
Is it more important for you to signal that you are attracted to this woman you've never interacted with, or is it more important to just strike up a standard conversation and treat her like any stranger you meet?
In my experience as a woman, men often don't realize that they are very clearly signaling their sexual attraction/view of this woman as a romantic prospect, which doesn't seem like much of an issue except for the fact that you've never actually spoken to this woman.
Ergo, the woman is fully aware you are attracted to her and view her as a prospect purely because of how she looks -- this is objectification as you have no idea whether you are compatible.
You are far likely to get a positive response if you treat her like literally any other person and not a prospect. We don't like being objectified by strangers, but we don't mind making new friends. Save the romance for after the first conversation at the very least.
This is not me telling you youre doing anything wrong, but im pointing out something a lot of men do not even realize they are doing when they approach a woman. We can usually see men's intentions, they are not good at hiding them. Change your intentions from "i wanna date this woman" to "id like to see if this person is down for a conversation".
Social media is so weird. There's nothing more normal than flirting with people because you're attracted to them but of course redditors/lemmings need to overthink everything
To me the entire point of flirting is to have fun while getting to know someone, just blindly calling someone hot isn't really how flirting works IME, at least it's not how I do it.
And isn't the meme about harassment anyway?
I wasn't talking about flirting?
Yeah harassment like men who leave multiple comments breaking the rules here because you can’t help but force your manly views onto us.
This. THIS RIGHT FUCKING HERE.
All my fucking life I've had people come on to me because "I'm their sexual fetish" (read: Asian). Many of them have actually come out and said that in those words thinking, somehow, that this was going to be flattering to me, not something that would instantly put my hand near one of my knives just in case.
Interact with people socially. Find shared interests. Do things together without the whole sex thing hanging between you. And you know what? If you come across right, you'll get laid. Even if you're not conventionally attractive.
If you come across as only being interested in me for my shape, my ethnicity, and where you can place which appendages in which receptacles, however, I don't give a flying fuck how hot you look or not. You're not getting anywhere near me. (I mean unless I'm cruising a pick-up joint, in which case being there is the signal that I'm available, duh.)
The best relationships are the ones that you accidentally fall into from a friendship.
This comment sat weirdly with me for a minute. I am not saying you are incorrect. I just think there is some conceptual friction.
I think the issue is inserting "dating" in the path of "sexual attraction," and not just with your comment. Dating and sex are tied together in a way that rubs me the wrong way because it gatekeeps "sex" behind "relationship" in a way that isn't equally distributed, culturally. It doesn't freely offer the "one-night stand" to all genders. And I don't think you can cleanly say "all men are happy with one-night stands, and all women are against one-night stands."
You don't need to know what someone's favorite movie is to think they're hot. And you don't need to know whether they have any siblings to have sex with them. However, there does seem to be some expectation that men won't provide the necessary intimacy for good sex unless they're committed in a relationship. And it also assumes women are already primed and ready throw everything, emotionally, into a relationship at the drop of the pants.
The only things you need to have (good) sex with someone is: physical compatibility, so the bits interact in ways that feels good for all participants; and social compatibility, insofar as being able to smoothly communicate. All participants need to be able to view the other people as active contributors, to ask and accede to their boundaries and desires while also properly expressing their own.
I think the assumption/fear of "objectification" is valid. I'm aware you are a woman sharing a woman's perspective of "courtship," and I don't want to appear to or actually dismiss you out of hand. But I wonder how much of the reticence toward sexual openness is some residual patriarchal fear of being seen as "libertine."
This is a TL;DR that just came to me: "viewing someone as sexual is only objectification if the assumption is the person is being used for sex instead of having sex with them."
Any statement that begins with "all " is 99.44% likely to be incorrect. That being said, men are far more prone to be interested in one-night stands than women are. Are women sometimes interested in one-night stands? FUCK yes! I'd suspect every woman on Earth has had a moment where they at least very seriously entertained (if not actually took) the possibility of a one-night or a short-term fuck-fest. (I spent two weeks on a holiday shacked up with a guy I met on the plane there. Never saw nor heard from him again and I'm fine with that.) But I'd also suspect a whole lot more men entertain this possibility a whole lot more frequently. This has to do with the fact that men don't bear the biological costs of childbirth; the risk analysis is entirely different.
So on the whole I think it's perfectly safe to assume that men are far more interested in (and far more likely to participate in) casual sex than women. Just #NotAllMen.
You make some really good points that are really good in conjunction with, but don't fully dispute my point.
I like that you point out that sexual attraction and a dating connection are different though not mutually exclusive. I also like that you brought up female sexual liberation and the assumption that most women don't want one night stands (they very often do!).
I guess I'll clarify my initial point. I think a lot of men grow up thinking women are very different from them, so they add all this extra pressure on themselves specifically on interactions with women, and women can generally tell. I guess what I'm truly trying to say here is that putting women you've never met on a pedestal (eg. She's so pretty, I have to tell her how beautiful I think she looks or use the perfect pickup line so this beautiful woman will go on a date with me) is just another form of objectification.
To give personal anecdotal context just so you can fully grasp the feeling im frustrated with: I'm weird. I'm fairly attractive and I do get approached, but i am fucking weird. I do not want a man who does not know me to approach me telling me how beautiful he thinks I am, expecting to get my number, because I know damn well that there's a high chance that if I give it to him, he will quickly realize how fucking weird I am and ghost me.
I don't mind if somebody says "hey I really like your band shirt/your shoes/your hat, etc." -- or my jacket with my patches on (always a great convo starter) -- always love when somebody likes a band i also like! But this means its an open conversation with no assumptions being made.
Basically, have a full conversation with me before you ask for my number, then we can see where this could go. I intentionally show my weird very quickly in conversation so people know what they are getting into.
So yeah, I don't think you're wrong, but I do think potential dating/sex/friendships can be approached all the same, unassuming way. People are people, and I don't wanna give my number to somebody I've never spoken to because he thinks I'm pretty. Please give me a better reason to continue interacting basically.
Is that not idolization more then objectification? Certainly, for some guys as with everything, it's objectification but I cannot believe that a majority of men see the woman in that situation as a vagina and nothing else.
Is idolization not another form of putting women on a pedestal?
The exact context that is provided in the comment you replied to?
But like, you idolize human beings. Not objects. Alternatively you could say that you idol worship with gods and goddess. Neither of which seem negative.
Idols are by definition inanimate objects used to represent something else.
You’ve never heard of the golden calf? Objects can be idolized.
This, I fully agree with. I wasn't seeing the situation where someone sees you and says "give me your phone number" because that seems insane to me. Yeah, some positive conversation should happen before people go around demanding semi-permanent means of contact. Beyond niceties, that's just unsafe with the unfortunate likelihood of some psycho digging into your socials.
Right?! It is absolutely insane, but so many guys will do that. There are so many things guys do that other guys don't believe because they're fuckin insane things to do lol
There's a whole bunch of literally insane things guys will do thinking it's going to get them laid. I don't know where they learn it from that this works given how often they seem to get told to piss off.
Yeah, a lot of people have incomprehensible, arcane rules to dating and attraction that you'll never suss out unless you are who they're trying to attract.
This is totally true too. Each person is an individual and there is no advice that will work to get everyone's attention. Sometimes people just don't want to be approached, even if you do everything "right".
I vet what you are saying, but also if you are out looking for a relationship, you are kind of looking for physical, mental, and emotional compatability.
Telling someone "I think you are hot" is not necesarily objectifying them. It may just be saying "There are three hurdles here (maybe more) and this one here, that is a foot tall that is extremely easy to step over, has been stepped."
Suggesting its always objectifying eliminates the prospect that they are just trying to get to the next, much harder hurdles.
Hey! I just responded to another comment that qarbone made and I think it adequately covers a lot of this stuff too.
I'm very much not trying to say it's always intended to be objectifying, but that it feels objectifying when somebody leads with that, because people are more than that. And if you are trying to strike up a conversation with a woman, considering how something feels to her, regardless of your intention, is important because it will dictate her response.
To me, a man I've never met approaching me saying "I think you are hot" reads to me like "I saw you and I covet you, and I don't care much about your substance."
You are allowed to think a woman is hot, but perhaps don't lead with it because it signals that is the only reason why you are talking to her, regardless of if that is true or not.
Women are often very intentional with their fashion, so a tried and true way of striking up a convo in an unassuming way is to comment/compliment on a choice they made
Example: "I really like your shirt/bag/shoes/jacket, etc., it looks really cool!/goes really well with your outfit!" (Make note of the adjectives. Do not call a stranger hot/sexy/etc. In the first sentence - that puts unneeded pressure on the interaction because we do not know what kind of guy you are - keep the compliment neutral, like how you'd compliment a guy)
It's important to note that your intentions do not matter if they do not match your perceived intentions.
This is it exactly. A man I’ve never met saying that is way different than someone you know saying it. Like, I replied to one of Velma’s comments that an outfit she described looked hot, but I’ve also interacted with her multiple times and I’m not some strange dude walking up out of the blue to say that.
Absolutely! Your existing rapport with a person really informs what is acceptable socially going forward. My friends and I are extremely flirty with each other, but that takes into account that we know each other and we know what is acceptable and we know that the other person will inform us if we've gone too far.
When you're a stranger, however, all bets are off as far as what's acceptable goes, so it's important to make sure you're representing your intentions honestly, accounting for the other person's perspective as well.
I'll also add that context matters too. How you hit on someone at a music festival is vitally different from how you hit on them at a community potluck. I've had success flirting with a woman I hadn't met before by complimenting how her boobs looked in the corset she was wearing, but had I not been in an event where sexual forwardness, including between women, is normal. To make a comment like that basically anywhere else would be mortifying.
Generally try to err on the side of respectful, but learning what are normal and acceptable styles of flirtation and general interaction in a space is part of hitting on people in that space.
You make a super good point and I don't know why I didn't think of that in my initial comment!
Context in setting is soooo important. When I was typing out my intial comment I totally just had a vision in my head of being out in the general public, at a bar, grocery store, bus stop, mall, etc. I didn't even think about music festivals!
That being said, there seems to be a pretty good general consensus about, well, consent and the understanding thereof, at least at the festivals I attend regularly.
But no you are totally correct in that there is a time and place for that kind of assumed rapport (if that wording makes sense) based on the specific community's unwritten social rules. I've even directly experienced this so I don't know how I glossed over it, so thank you for making that point!
I'm not trying to be a shithead, but that almost sounds like you have a subconscious notion that you are an object. Patriarchy and such beating it into your head or whatever, but if you interpret so many things as saying that you are an object, it doesn't seem like it's based in reality.
Maybe put another way, the man would almost certainly, in his own head, truly not believe that is what he is conveying, and is not trying to imply that. By reading that into it, you are the one adding that context to the situation.
In some cases, at least. Certainly, many men are shit and do intentionally do that.
The patriarchy is the framework that allows and reinforces the idea that women are commodities, that we are objects for men to own, but it’s all in our heads and we are arbitrarily choosing to interpret men’s harassment as objectification?
Did I get that right?
Approaching a woman with “I think you’re hot” isn’t really up for debate whether it’s objectifying. Even if the man using that phrase doesn’t think he’s objectifying the woman he is trying to court, commenting specifically on her appearance in relation to what he wants is pretty clear.
Edit: it’s like you didn’t even read their last sentence-
just popping in to say youre amazing :)
Right? I love Velma, she helps bring out the whiners so I can tag them to ignore later :)
So many “misandry whiner” tags in this thread lol
Aw thank you! So are you :3
So if I perceive that every human that gets within 2 ft of me is attempting to murder me, it's their fault?
How is "I think you are hot" objectifying when "hot" is a descriptor of a human beings qualities? You got call a house hot. Or a train. I suppose there is hot rod but I am pretty sure that came from a different definition of hot and not attraction.
I just don't understand how you could perceive it as objectifying by default.
because hot means "youre really attractive when I look at you" here. You dont know what they like, they dont know their hobbys, their style of humor, only what they look like. That is the difference.
If you said, "you know I find you to be really hot when your wit is so quick" its different.
Ive told my husband, "Youre so hot when youre getting excited over basketball cards" cuz, he is, im not objectifying him. His personality is what makes him hot, not his giant cock.
Also, telling someone youve known as a person for a time, like talked to them before, know them already a bit, hot is less off putting and random, than a person you just met. A person you just met the only thing you can call them hot for is how they look. Thats objectifying.
I'd like you to take a look at rule #1 of this group and ask yourself: "Am I supposed to be commenting here?"
I'm not making the accusation. Yet. But I'm asking the question.
I’m going to respectfully stop this conversation here. Not because I can’t explain how men can objectify women and why women can pick up on when men want to fuck us vs befriending us, but because it won’t be productive and this isn’t the community to do so.
Please read the rules and respect this space.
I’m a similar way. I think what you put out is what you attract, generally.
So if you’re being flirty and super forward with a stranger, the ones that bite probably aren’t thinking too far beyond looks and vibes either. Higher chance of it becoming a casual or short-term engagement.
Define "flirty" here. I've seen conventionally attractive women described as "flirty" for being just, you know, generally friendly. And yet women who are not conventionally attractive doing the same thing aren't called "flirty".
It's kind of a landmine that one is. If I smile, am I flirting? If I laugh at a joke, am I flirting? If I show off a new outfit spinning in place, am I flirting?
Then there's "super forward". I'm a social builder. In any social group I look for the people being left out and try to ensure they have an invite into joining things. (If they really don't want to I back off, natch.) So if I approach you at a party where you're just looking around like you have no idea what you're doing, introduce myself, start asking questions ... is that me being "super forward" or me quickly assessing where you'd fit in best so you don't feel isolated and alone in the group?
It's probably not a good idea to call someone "flirty" and "super forward" without reading very carefully why you think either is the case. Wait for the bodily contact, the smoking look-overs, the slow lick of the lips or such first.
As an introvert who likes being around people, I just want to say thank you for doing this type of thing. I enjoy hanging out with people but breaking the ice and talking can be hard.
Thing is, I'm an introvert. I know how hard it is to be on the outside looking in, desperately wanting to be involved but not knowing how.
It took literally DECADES of hard effort for me to force myself through that barrier. I want to make that barrier a lot lower for others so they don't have to be like I was.
It’s super appreciated. I did that in my 20s, broke myself out of my shell and started going out doing stuff with random folks. But I stopped that after I was out of commission for a year (fuck drunk drivers), then Covid hit and I am now 40 trying to break out of my shell again lol
I do 1000% agree with this.
So in general im not saying it never works to approach somebody telling them they're hot, but you really cannot fault a woman for not liking it because there are tons of valid reasons not to. Mostly I'm annoyed at guys who only do this and hate women for responding in a way they do not like, or claim women do not like them when they've literally never tried anything else and refuse to listen to women when they tell them how they want to be approached.
But fuck ya if you're a slutty man at a party and wanna put out flirty slut vibes to find a slutty woman, I'm sure you'll find one (hell, you'll likely get approached!). As long as everyone's being honest, yknow.
Not if your general treatment of strangers doesn't involve talking to them.
Sounds like you need to fix your general treatment of strangers then, rather than fixing your approach to women you find attractive.
I have a pathological fear of making anyone's day worse unless they give me a very good reason. I probably do need to work on that somewhat, but I also think many people feel too entitled to others' time.
Yeah you need to work on that. Humans exist in community, we need it. Casual small talk with strangers is good for everyone
Small talk is the cultural "carrier wave". It's the never-ending buzz of shared values and experiences against which our personalities stand out.
Radios don't work if they can't hook into the carrier wave of the channel they're on. Same for small talk and people.
My point is treat women like you're trying to make a friend, not like a person you are trying to date because you don't know enough about them as a person to even know if there will be a connection.
If you'd approach people you don't know for dates but not friendship, that's your own problem and maybe something to work on.
Women don't want to be liked for how they look, they want to be liked for who they are.
Hard disagree here. I love being liked for how I look.
I just don't put out because you say I look nice. It's a foot in the door at best, and only if you praise it in ways that don't come across like you're viewing me as a slab of meat with orifices.
I mean unless I'm in a hook-up joint, duh.
Fair enough!
Wanted to drop in and say I really appreciate your patient and well crafted responses in this thread! You get your points across in such an easy to read way. I really enjoyed the back and forth you had with others here :)
I have to agree. @[email protected] has been a real champ at actually conversing.
That is so kind, thank you!
edit: woops, didn't realize the sub I was on.
Edit: i see you edited your comment, but ill leave mine as-is because it could be useful to somebody
I actually talk to strangers super often lol. I really like metal music so, for example: I saw a guy at my gym with a Cannibal Corpse tshirt and I just said "hey man, by the way, I really like your shirt", and now we say hi when we see each other.
I have another male friend at the gym who literally approached me and said "wow, you lift heavy" (note that you can absolutely say this to a man, this is not a gender specific comment) - I enjoyed that interaction, it was honestly great and made me feel good because it was clear that I was working hard and it was a recognition of that work. It felt like respect.
I talk to strangers at concerts A LOT, especially when out for a smoke (great place to meet new people, you don't even have to smoke). It's important to have an end to the convo built into your greeting, because you can gauge pretty easily whether somebody wants to continue talking based on their response. If you have these little interactions frequently enough, people that share public spaces with you will just start to recognize you.
Idk I've been doing this forever and I didn't think it was that foreign a concept to people. Maybe it depends on where you're from.
Metalhead. And you lift.
If there is a perfect woman out there, I think I have found her. Pity I'm in a committed, very long term relationship. 🤭
(In my case, music-head, but metal is a large part of that. And I lift. Though I only lift heavy on leg day. My arms stubbornly remain cooked noodles after years.)
Hahaha well thanks! I am also in a committed and very long-term relationship with a fellow metalhead.
Boy do i love being strong, haha, I was blessed with shoulders built to carry a yoke.
I was born with, according to my bastard trainer (an ex-student of mine), and I quote, "sturdy peasant legs".
In which case I'm immediately not interested anymore
Strange take. Just because she is not immediately interested you give up? Sounds like you don't like woman with standards.
...I think the issue is in pretending she is not interested. What part of feigning disinterest indicates "standards"?
Is a woman some kind of loose trollop because she admits to some initial attraction?
Society very often conditions women to feel like they are sluts if they act too interested.
Great. Fuck society and their expectations. They can't stop you all.
Could be that she sees potential but needs more interaction to determine if what she sees is real or a play. Many men put on airs and then drop them after a time. Could be she has many things going on and needs to cull the attention for a time. Could be she has been told by mentors that being too interested is perceived as easy or slutty. Many, many reasons to be attracted and act like you're not. Sometimes flirting involves a back and forth. No means no but thats not what the second category is talking about. Thats the third.
No means no, but some people are scared to say "no" because others don't react well to "no." So they deflect when they mean "no."
Then the reasonable suitor, aware of the broader context, has to assume anything but a "yes" is a "no", or else risk contributing to the problem.
I don't think so. There are plenty of ways to signal you want to continue a conversation or see each other again without a "yes, let's fuck." Most reasonable suitors, in my experience, understand the context of "not yes, yet."
Edit: sorry, I'm juggling multiple threads. This basis was in a different thread, so this was not established.
We were not operating under the belief that "yes" meant "immediate fucking." It was "(openly) interested," "interested but feigning disinterest," and "uninterested." I'd say "signaling that you want to continue conversing with or seeing each other again" falls pretty squarely into "interested."
There is a possible disconnect between platonic and sexual or romantic interest even between the people talking but we're booking interest as interest.
Uhhh, did you just make up a fourth option and pretend I replied to that instead of the one I actually quoted?
It's right there, you know. Just centimeters above your very offended reply.
Also, as a woman, my experience with other women generally comes down to "ah, I'm not into women, sorry". Granted, I've been married for a decade now, so eh
No, i didn't make up a fourth option. You just don't seem to grasp how flirting works.
Then please explain to us, wise sensei, since you seem to somehow think that not flirting is a form of flirting
You’re aware of the rules now. Maybe rethink this rude comment.
You don’t want to get into a convo with me about the ways men flirt or do not flirt when trying to harass a woman.
What makes it even worse ist that "I have a girlfriend" never seems to have the same effect
Said to a man or to a woman, because you're right on both counts.
Yup, if anything I think men try more when they hit on sapphic women. They're always so confident they can make us straight if we just gave them a chance.
Hoping for threesomes, the little grots.
What part of a lesbian relationship needs a male
I confuse them sometimes when I say "my boyfriend and my girlfriend would probably object".
“Lesbians are only lesbians until they get dicked down properly” is one of my most hated anti-LGBT+ beliefs of all time.
Absolutely, and it's a universal problem
A wise man once told me "Their partner, their problem." Anyway I'm now dating his wife.
There be assholes on both sides that's for sure
I think you misunderstood. I meant saying "I have a girlfriend" as a woman to a man hitting on you doesn't have the same effect as "I have a boyfriend" in the same situation.
But I see now my comment was rather vague. Mb
Ah ok my bad
I wish it worked like that. The amount of times I’ve stated having a boyfriend just to be told, “He’s not here, so what he doesn’t know won’t hurt him” is disheartening.
"oH? wEll wHeRe Is hE?" has entered the chat.
Seriously don't know where men think they are going with this shit. Like they are entitled to a reasonable-in-their-eyes explanation as to why you won't immediately fall all over them. Just so gross.
"He's in the dojo learning from my father."
(That would have been literally true at one point in my life. 🤣)
It’s a bit tough for me when a guy approaches out of the blue and I’m unavailable for whatever reason. Like, let’s say purposefully taking the adjacent seat and starts chatting. And you know where this is headed and you’re thinking “oh crap… How do I handle this so as to not waste his time but also not be rude and assuming.” So then I’ll often end up with a tedious but friendly conversation I don’t necessarily want, bc his intentions aren’t explicitly clear, so therefore I can’t explicitly decline. 😅
But yes, “I have a boyfriend” ends it fairly quick lol. It’s nice to just be able to say that when that’s the case.
Some guys are clever and ask something like “are you here with anyone?” To which you can say, yeah my boyfriend. I always appreciate that!! Because it saves everyone’s time and for me, the stress of figuring out how to best handle the conversation. 😆
I hate this part - having to sit through their introduction and attempt at flirting with me before I've said more than "Hi".
Recently had a man in his mid-60s attempt to pick me up while I was watching my kid in their swim lesson. Luckily telling stories about my husband was enough to get him to fuck off. It's not always enough though.
I had a man randomly talk to me at the bus stop. (I was suspected it was to pick me up.) He mentioned a daughter and I learned she was my age.
And he still asked me out.
Uh...
Ugh yes why do they do that?? The older man trying to hit on me also mentioned that his daughter was around my age. But I “looked good” for how old I was. Fucking gross.
It feels a bit of an accomplishment when you’re able to weave The Hubby into the conversation in a very natural way😆
Yeah I like to really gush to these types of men about how great he is, how supportive he is, how much I love him, and how often he likes to hit the gym hahahaha
Also, he's amazing in bed, of course
I feel like choosing the seat next to you with the intent to talk to you already invades your space. I think you shouldn't need a reason to say that you'd rather not have some rando plop down next to you.
I tried "I have a girlfriend and also you're 9 years older than me" and he was still annoying... :(
You hit the double-whammy of things they don't care about there ... you need to belong to a man already to stand a chance of that sort backing off
The trick is to be at least forty and trans. All the cis guys have their eyes laser-locked in front of them, never wavering.
Still working on the open glares from middle-aged cis women, but I’m still largely invisible.
The phantom boyfriend might kick his ass. It's not respect, it is probably fear. Also they're seeking the path of least resistance. A lot easier to interview for a job opening than to try to interview for a job already filled. You do certainly see over-confident/desperate men try that tactic, but most predators are looking for an easy meal, not a competitor.
For this one I wear a ring that makes it look like I'm married.
I’m married and wear a wedding ring, but I’m from a place that wears it on the left hand (so that’s what feels best to me) and I live in a place that wears it on the right.
It’s unfortunately not very protective.
True. Sad. But have you ever told a girl "Thank you, I have a girlfriend"? They will NOT accept rejection.
Have you checked out the rules for this community yet? If not, please have a look :)
Removed dumb comment. #iassumedincorrectly
I didn't assume anything. I asked if they read the rules.
You're assuming my gender?
I asked a question. Are you following the rules here?
Ofc
Yeah, i'm gonna go ahead and call this one a lie.
Oh good, your sister would want to make sure you’re respecting women’s spaces, I’m sure. Thank you!
Oh god you assumed my gender I can't believe it's 2026 cmon!
Your post history is not hidden and you’re not being cute.
Please respect this space.
You're property to them and they are not thieves. Saying you have a boyfriend signals you already are "owned". It's a disgusting attitude.