Personally, I'd rather have the wishes to use on anything else. Could cure cancer, become filthy rich, turn into a T-rex, have guns for hands, etc. What's the point of "out smarting" the genie like this? Fuck, I could even understand evil wishes, at least they do something productive (if terrible).
Maybe wish away their protections then wish for them to be dead? That way you have an extra wish. But maybe you should use that one before killing your genie.
I really need to read 1001 Arabian nights again. Quest for Glory 2, trial by fire is still kinda my favorite game and very obviously based on it. even though I have beaten the whole series in every combination of classes except maybe raw fighter, because why when paladin? Anyways I was too young to really process it when I read it and would like to read it for realsies this time
I really like my friend's justification in his fantasy worldbuilding, which explains it to my satisfaction:
When attempting to seal things of mundane power, mundane objects are sufficient, such as handcuffs and chains. When you try to seal something magically, that extra power needed to seal such a powerful entity has tradeoffs: the more magically unbreakable and irresistible you want the seal to be, the more fragile the conditions holding it must also be. Want to seal all the evils of the world, even for a short time? Well, looks like you're going to need to store them in a top-heavy, ceramic jar with a tiny bottom, like Pandora's Pithos. Trapping a genie? It'll be much easier if you lay the trap with conditions for release, like someone rubbing it three times. Want to bind a violent spirit? Bind it to a fragile mirror, and make it so that she is freed if anyone stares into the mirror and says her name thrice, or if the mirror shatters.
This explains a lot of the folkloric sealing rituals in mythology.
Why don't they ever put the items with the evil beings sealed in them in a heavy container with padding, then drop it into the middle of the ocean? It's like they want them to be unsealed later for story purposes or something!
That's only effective until the saltwater eats away at all of the seals, at which point it's free again. Ancient vaults containing artifacts of fell power and their incumbent curses comprise one of the most popular adventure story archetypes. The point is, it's only gone until someone stumbles across it, and now it's _un_gone, and worse, the hapless stumbler has no idea what's going on.
Well if the counter doesn't reset (because the genie exists outside of time and therefore grants all the wishes "simultaneously" from its own perspective) we definitely get a problem, because granting 3 makes it impossible for 3 to be granted, and we get the paradox implied by the comic
Do the opposite of next
Do not grant 3
Ignore 1
If you grant 1 and 2, then you cannot grant 3 (since 3 implies not granting 1). If you grant 3, then 2 cannot be granted (since it implies not granting 3). This is the simple form of the paradox.
But you said the counter didn't reset? If it grants 2 in the "second loop", that implies 1 was granted (since we didn't invert 2), but you can't grant 2 (uninverted) and also grant 1.
If you're operating with a time-loop recursion, you run into the problem of my initial comment. If you try to grant all three wishes simultaneously, you run into the obvious contradiction. The only way you get out is if you allow a time-loop recursion, but for some reason count the ignored guess as a granted guess in the inner loop(s).
To fulfill the third wish, the genie must ignore the first wish made. The first wish was to do the opposite of the second, so to fulfill the third wish, the genie must now ignore that command, and do not the opposite not the actual second wish. The second wish, now primed to be fulfilled in earnest, not opposite, was to not fulfill the third. But fulfilling the third is how we got into this situation in the first place, so if it's not fulfilled anymore, we shouldn't be in the state we're in.
To fulfill the third wish, the genie must ignore the first wish made.
These were executed in serial, so the effects have already been committed. Ignoring the first wish at the end had no material effect, because it's already been executed "flipping the second wish".
These commands would need to be actively looping before you encountered a runtime error. But the genie isn't re-evaluating the wish stack after each wish.
I mean, we are talking about a magical genie that can alter the fabric of reality to grant wishes. I trust you can suspend disbelief that the genie cannot change the past to effect those changes.
This assumes that all the wishes are executed at once.
Assume that there are two important points in a wish. The points of utterance and the point of execution. Wishes are executed as soon as possible. As soon as a wish is executed, it is no longer a wish. It simply is.
Consider this sequence:
Wish one is uttered but does not execute until wish two is uttered.
Wish one executes as soon as wish two is uttered and wish two is modified.
The modified wish two is executed as soon as wish three is uttered and modifies wish three.
The modified wish three executes immediately, and wish one may be safely ignored as it has already been executed.
See, it all depends on the assumptions around the mechanics of wishing. It's pretty important to know the rules before you get started.
The punchline implies that assumption or parallel processing. It must because it's inconsistent with the common rules of the myth. Wishes are commonly executed in series, not in parallel, which is impicit in the syntax of the first, second, and third wish. So that assumption of parallel wish processing isn't even consistent with most of the language of the comic or with the final panel.
My explanation does not at all assume all wishes are executed at once. It does assume that a magical genie with reality altering powers can change the past.
Sort of due to a flaw in the syntax; it (almost) boils down to an infinite loop (we'll fix the syntax to specify "I wish for you to" and use the wish flags '!' = opposite, '~' = ignore/skip (we'll assume this exhausts a wish still even though it shouldn't since it doesn't matter anyway), and for clarity, we'll make '+' mean no flags/execute normally; all 3 wishes are '+' at the start of the first loop):
"I wish for you to do the opposite of my next wish." (flag set to do !wish2)
"I wish for you not to fulfill my third wish." (flag set for +wish3)
"I wish for you to [have ignored] my first wish." (now ~wish1 was set before you made wish 2; notably, this needs to be retroactive for the loop to start, so the syntax in the OP is wrong).
Now +wish2 was set. But then the flag for ~wish3 was set. But then +wish1 was set (i.e. it was never ignored; this is flawed, however, but author's logic). Now !wish2 was set. Now ~wish3 was set. Etc.
Every even loop (0-indexed) will be (+, !, +) while every odd one will be (~, +, ~).
That said, a flaw in this logic is that it should actually stop after Loop 1, since wish3 is no longer an active wish; the genie doesn't have to go back and change anything. You need the wish to be active, not ignored, to break the genie into an infinite loop.
"I wish for you to do the opposite of my first wish." as wish3 should break 'em.
If the wishes are prioritized from more to less recent, yeah. -which I guess is the trope's tradition.
But it's an attempt at a self-referential paradox akin to the liars' paradox (this statement is false). I think a shorter, but more valid version, would be 'don't fulfil this wish'.
I remember as a kid I tried forming a logic quandary like this that so I would gain superpowers in the real world via my dreams by canceling out the dream/real world barrier.
IMHO, I feel people here have the Disney idea of a genie rather than the true Middle Eastern idea of a djin.
Djins grant wishes more like the MonkeyPaw. It can horribly backfire. The protagonist is basically using logic to neutralize anything bad the djin can potentially do to him.
I'd argue the Monkey's Paw is a bad example because I don't think the Monkey's Paw is actively malicious like a djinn.
I think Monkey's Paw just works off of path of least resistance. What's the fastest way to randomly get rich? Workplace accident causing life insurance payout. What's the least effort way to revive the dead? Just make the corpse start moving again. What's the easiest way to give a shambling corpse peace? Undo the last wish.
I feel like a Djinn wouldn't let you undo the reviving wish. They'd probably just put them in a coma so your son is now in a half dead comatose state forever.
The Monkey's Paw seems "programmed" maliciously to grant the wish using a method that produces other results undesirable to the wisher rather than there being any active malice on the Paw's part.
I feel people here have the Disney idea of a genie rather than the true Middle Eastern idea of a djin.
oooh that makes sense... I had a friend in cybersecurity who was always using the term "evil genie" to characterize how attackers would take any system you developed, and look for a way to use it against you.
How djinns grant wishes varies wildly in stories. Some are actively malicious, some try to grant the wish along the spirit of the wish, some are strictly literal with no actual malice intended. If the djinn is imprisoned and forced to grant wishes it does makes sense that they would "Monkey's Paw" them if they're able.
Yeah, even stories of "benevolent" djinn who want to help still backfire and those are the minority. Most are tricksters who want to fuck with you, so giving them some sort of logic loop is more likely that they break logic/causality than you'll have them blue screen of death and poof away in a cloud of smoke
I never understood this, he just says to ignore not to undo, so technically the genie would just need to forget/disregard the first wish ever happened and the third wish would be complete.
i heard the 3 wish rule is DISNEY-invention. i dont think theres a limit. but genies might not give wishes you want if you wernt specific. wishmaster, "demon wishes, an
I wish for an ability to understand topology the way Jesus did. Dude could weave a tail, I herd. I'm a bovine, obviously. That's what this character is
Is the joke that this would result in an infinite loop? Cuz it absolutely does not do that.
First pass of wishes
do the opposite of wish 2.
"don't do wish 3", reinterpreted due to wish one to "do wish 3".
ignore wish 1.
Wish three make him go back to wish one to reinterprete, so it is now understood as:
[ignored]
dont do wish 3 (understood as is now)
[doesn't matter, we're not doing it, per wish 2]
The execution of wish 3 removes wish 1, and wish 2 removes wish 3. OP would probably argue that if wish 3 doesn't execute on the second loop then wish 1 can't be ignored, and so it goes back to the original interpretation and gets stuck in a loop, but that is a bad take. The manner of interpretation is sequential, even if recursion is implemented. It doesn't (can't) get reinterpreted as a whole. The moment you're told not to do the next step, you're done. So you just wished for no wishes. Good job, you fooled yourself. Go take an algorithms class.
Furthermore, pretty sure any sensible genie would say "sorry, all wishes are final" or "I'm a genie. I'm literally incapable of ignoring your wishes. That or, "you're attempting to create an infinite loop in logic that I couldn't possibly execute on because it creates a paradox. But literally nothing in you're wishes does anything but effect other wishes, having absolutely no noticeable external effect on the world so... done. Enjoy your weird self-satisfaction over having the ability to reshape all of reality on your personal whim and still achieving literally no effect on the universe. Your mother was right about you. Go fuck yourself."
"I'm so smart" - man who wasted three wishes.
Wasted?
Some people just want to break stuff. Wish achieved.
Personally, I'd rather have the wishes to use on anything else. Could cure cancer, become filthy rich, turn into a T-rex, have guns for hands, etc. What's the point of "out smarting" the genie like this? Fuck, I could even understand evil wishes, at least they do something productive (if terrible).
Maybe he really hates genies and that's the only way to kill one?
Maybe wish away their protections then wish for them to be dead? That way you have an extra wish. But maybe you should use that one before killing your genie.
These genie wishes are always monkey paws. Better to do something that wasn’t going to blow back, like crashing the genie.
In the Arabian Nights, the genie tended to grant people's wishes as they were intended, and without any trickery.
The trickery of the djinn is something that has been retconned into the system.
If they didn't like you, they would just kill you right away.
And also technically Aladdin got a second genie originally with just a small ring that granted him unlimited wishes in the form of servitude.
I really need to read 1001 Arabian nights again. Quest for Glory 2, trial by fire is still kinda my favorite game and very obviously based on it. even though I have beaten the whole series in every combination of classes except maybe raw fighter, because why when paladin? Anyways I was too young to really process it when I read it and would like to read it for realsies this time
You could also just not wish anything, or wish for no wishes, etc.
Or wish for the genie to be free, like Fox Mulder did.
The thing with these wishes is they canonically have unintended consequences, so a null result is coming out ahead.
If I find a genie, I will wish for we all to enjoy silly and light-hearted humor, instead of overthinking and complaining about it :D
Triggered a bug in the fabric of reality. It's a speed runner taking a crack at god.
"S M R T... I mean S M A R T"
Imprisoning a powerful being in an oil lamp that can be released simply by someone rubbing it is a pretty shitty setup!
Decades of JRPG have taught me those seals on ancient evils are almost always made breakable by a dumb kid that has no idea what he's doing.
Sealed Evil in a Can
You gotta warn someone before sending them down a TV Tropes rabbit hole!
wait shit the trope is actually called that?
I really like my friend's justification in his fantasy worldbuilding, which explains it to my satisfaction:
When attempting to seal things of mundane power, mundane objects are sufficient, such as handcuffs and chains. When you try to seal something magically, that extra power needed to seal such a powerful entity has tradeoffs: the more magically unbreakable and irresistible you want the seal to be, the more fragile the conditions holding it must also be. Want to seal all the evils of the world, even for a short time? Well, looks like you're going to need to store them in a top-heavy, ceramic jar with a tiny bottom, like Pandora's Pithos. Trapping a genie? It'll be much easier if you lay the trap with conditions for release, like someone rubbing it three times. Want to bind a violent spirit? Bind it to a fragile mirror, and make it so that she is freed if anyone stares into the mirror and says her name thrice, or if the mirror shatters.
This explains a lot of the folkloric sealing rituals in mythology.
Why don't they ever put the items with the evil beings sealed in them in a heavy container with padding, then drop it into the middle of the ocean? It's like they want them to be unsealed later for story purposes or something!
mystical sealing spells require the magic of plot contrivance
That's only effective until the saltwater eats away at all of the seals, at which point it's free again. Ancient vaults containing artifacts of fell power and their incumbent curses comprise one of the most popular adventure story archetypes. The point is, it's only gone until someone stumbles across it, and now it's _un_gone, and worse, the hapless stumbler has no idea what's going on.
The bottom of the ocean is pretty inaccessible even if the container rusts away.
But that doesn't stop the thing from getting out when the seal corrodes away...
If the container itself is flimsy enough to corrode away, escaping it is inevitable.
Agreed, but that was the only way we could do it. Sorta like a loophole the genie didn't expect becuz it's so dumb.
Trick it into obedience?
dammit iblis get back in your can
again that’s two loops and a successful exit.
Start loop 2
all wishes fulfilled, genie.exe concludes
Yup, I remember working through it the first time I saw this comic and there's no paradox here.
You could argue that there is though, since the genie will grant three wishes. In that case, it operates like
So we get
granted_wishes = 1granted_wishes = 2-inner loop-
granted_wishes = 0granted_wishes = 1-inner loop 2-
granted_wishes = 0granted_wishes = 1.... etc.
We get an infinite time-loop recursion, because we never reach the third guess in the inner loops.
Silly human. Genies exist outside of time. So the counter doesn't reset.
Well if the counter doesn't reset (because the genie exists outside of time and therefore grants all the wishes "simultaneously" from its own perspective) we definitely get a problem, because granting 3 makes it impossible for 3 to be granted, and we get the paradox implied by the comic
If you grant 1 and 2, then you cannot grant 3 (since 3 implies not granting 1). If you grant 3, then 2 cannot be granted (since it implies not granting 3). This is the simple form of the paradox.
Correct. The genie grants 1, 2, and 2 in the second loop.
But you said the counter didn't reset? If it grants 2 in the "second loop", that implies 1 was granted (since we didn't invert 2), but you can't grant 2 (uninverted) and also grant 1.
If you're operating with a time-loop recursion, you run into the problem of my initial comment. If you try to grant all three wishes simultaneously, you run into the obvious contradiction. The only way you get out is if you allow a time-loop recursion, but for some reason count the ignored guess as a granted guess in the inner loop(s).
Silly time, counters exist inside genies. So the human doesn't reset.
For some reason it feels like there's one though
I think that it is more that they need to be conditionally applied simultaneously, but are contradictory conditions that cannot be met.
the point of the genie is that he gets to intuit the unsuplied terms
Wouldn't going through two loops require the genie to grant more than three wishes?
i think the funny part is he has only to consider it, and by granting no wishes he grants them all
I don't get it...
It basically boils down to "do nothing", right?
To fulfill the third wish, the genie must ignore the first wish made. The first wish was to do the opposite of the second, so to fulfill the third wish, the genie must now ignore that command, and do not the opposite not the actual second wish. The second wish, now primed to be fulfilled in earnest, not opposite, was to not fulfill the third. But fulfilling the third is how we got into this situation in the first place, so if it's not fulfilled anymore, we shouldn't be in the state we're in.
These were executed in serial, so the effects have already been committed. Ignoring the first wish at the end had no material effect, because it's already been executed "flipping the second wish".
These commands would need to be actively looping before you encountered a runtime error. But the genie isn't re-evaluating the wish stack after each wish.
Yeah the wording on “ignore” is not the same as “undo all effects of” or “rollback my first wish”
Even so, I think it’s still just a no-op at the cost of 3 wishes.
I mean, we are talking about a magical genie that can alter the fabric of reality to grant wishes. I trust you can suspend disbelief that the genie cannot change the past to effect those changes.
The premise of the joke is pedantry. I reserve the right to be equally pedantic.
This assumes that all the wishes are executed at once.
Assume that there are two important points in a wish. The points of utterance and the point of execution. Wishes are executed as soon as possible. As soon as a wish is executed, it is no longer a wish. It simply is.
Consider this sequence:
Wish one is uttered but does not execute until wish two is uttered.
Wish one executes as soon as wish two is uttered and wish two is modified.
The modified wish two is executed as soon as wish three is uttered and modifies wish three.
The modified wish three executes immediately, and wish one may be safely ignored as it has already been executed.
See, it all depends on the assumptions around the mechanics of wishing. It's pretty important to know the rules before you get started.
The punchline implies that assumption or parallel processing. It must because it's inconsistent with the common rules of the myth. Wishes are commonly executed in series, not in parallel, which is impicit in the syntax of the first, second, and third wish. So that assumption of parallel wish processing isn't even consistent with most of the language of the comic or with the final panel.
So you know how they say a joke is like a toad: it dies when you dissect it but you learn a lot in the process? Sometimes those toads fart dude.
This comic wasn't particularly funny to me to begin with. The above dissection is why. This toad was dead on arrival.
sorry, to explicit my metaphor, i was saying that the dissection is sometimes also funny because who doesn't love a fart joke.
No denying that I often interpret things in a comically literal way. No offense taken. Farts are funny.
My explanation does not at all assume all wishes are executed at once. It does assume that a magical genie with reality altering powers can change the past.
My first wish is that your wish works the way I imagine it works
Exactly. I don't know why people are assuming that genies loop back on granted wishes.
Sort of due to a flaw in the syntax; it (almost) boils down to an infinite loop (we'll fix the syntax to specify "I wish for you to" and use the wish flags '!' = opposite, '~' = ignore/skip (we'll assume this exhausts a wish still even though it shouldn't since it doesn't matter anyway), and for clarity, we'll make '+' mean no flags/execute normally; all 3 wishes are '+' at the start of the first loop):
Now +wish2 was set. But then the flag for ~wish3 was set. But then +wish1 was set (i.e. it was never ignored; this is flawed, however, but author's logic). Now !wish2 was set. Now ~wish3 was set. Etc.
Every even loop (0-indexed) will be (+, !, +) while every odd one will be (~, +, ~).
That said, a flaw in this logic is that it should actually stop after Loop 1, since wish3 is no longer an active wish; the genie doesn't have to go back and change anything. You need the wish to be active, not ignored, to break the genie into an infinite loop.
"I wish for you to do the opposite of my first wish." as wish3 should break 'em.
oooh, that makes sense, if you change the wording like that...
If the wishes are prioritized from more to less recent, yeah. -which I guess is the trope's tradition. But it's an attempt at a self-referential paradox akin to the liars' paradox (this statement is false). I think a shorter, but more valid version, would be 'don't fulfil this wish'.
I remember as a kid I tried forming a logic quandary like this that so I would gain superpowers in the real world via my dreams by canceling out the dream/real world barrier.
Did it work?
Yes
Aw nice, good on you
Just perceive n undo the karmic fetters that bind you to the existence-illusion complex and you can, just like the Buddha and more have said!
The Lathe of Heaven?
Dammit I've just got the Rudimentary Lathe of, well, Sam. It's for rocks.
Congratulations. You just wasted three wishes and broke reality.
Ackshually, he never specified that any of those were wishes.
Recursive double negative.
Some believe there's a special place for such people.
IMHO, I feel people here have the Disney idea of a genie rather than the true Middle Eastern idea of a djin.
Djins grant wishes more like the MonkeyPaw. It can horribly backfire. The protagonist is basically using logic to neutralize anything bad the djin can potentially do to him.
I'd argue the Monkey's Paw is a bad example because I don't think the Monkey's Paw is actively malicious like a djinn.
I think Monkey's Paw just works off of path of least resistance. What's the fastest way to randomly get rich? Workplace accident causing life insurance payout. What's the least effort way to revive the dead? Just make the corpse start moving again. What's the easiest way to give a shambling corpse peace? Undo the last wish.
I feel like a Djinn wouldn't let you undo the reviving wish. They'd probably just put them in a coma so your son is now in a half dead comatose state forever.
The Monkey's Paw seems "programmed" maliciously to grant the wish using a method that produces other results undesirable to the wisher rather than there being any active malice on the Paw's part.
oooh that makes sense... I had a friend in cybersecurity who was always using the term "evil genie" to characterize how attackers would take any system you developed, and look for a way to use it against you.
How djinns grant wishes varies wildly in stories. Some are actively malicious, some try to grant the wish along the spirit of the wish, some are strictly literal with no actual malice intended. If the djinn is imprisoned and forced to grant wishes it does makes sense that they would "Monkey's Paw" them if they're able.
What was that movie with Idris Elba playing a fucking djinni? (he seemed very good at it) I could stand to watch that again.
Three Thousand Years of Longing.
Yeah, even stories of "benevolent" djinn who want to help still backfire and those are the minority. Most are tricksters who want to fuck with you, so giving them some sort of logic loop is more likely that they break logic/causality than you'll have them blue screen of death and poof away in a cloud of smoke
Yeah I could see the genie undoing the first wish he ever asked for and significantly altering his life.
Well, the first wish can be ignored without being "undone", so nothing should have happened.
I never understood this, he just says to ignore not to undo, so technically the genie would just need to forget/disregard the first wish ever happened and the third wish would be complete.
Genie: "I'm a thinking being not a computer, these wishes don't make sense so I'm not granting them."
Just as likely anything that lives in a lamp for hundreds of years and manifests as a holographic vapor from a spout is indeed a computer.
do you think they have showers inside lamps? that' not holographic vapor
i heard the 3 wish rule is DISNEY-invention. i dont think theres a limit. but genies might not give wishes you want if you wernt specific. wishmaster, "demon wishes, an
Dear lord candlejack has retu
Simple: 3rd wish unfulfilled, first wish ignored, doing tho opposite opposite of next wish (wish 5): wishes annulled.
DjinnOS: An Arch Based Distrobution
Disruption*
For everyone wondering how this wouldnt work, isnt "undo my first wish" a solution? That would break the genie.
Edit: also it shouldnt be "ignore my next wish" but "ignore my second wish". Even better if you state each wish starting with "My Xth wish is to..."
I wish for an ability to understand topology the way Jesus did. Dude could weave a tail, I herd. I'm a bovine, obviously. That's what this character is
I feel like this would just result in the genie pinching the bridge of his nose and manifesting an aspirin.
Genie sits down for five minutes, thinks then slaps the wisher:
NO
Is the joke that this would result in an infinite loop? Cuz it absolutely does not do that.
First pass of wishes
Wish three make him go back to wish one to reinterprete, so it is now understood as:
The execution of wish 3 removes wish 1, and wish 2 removes wish 3. OP would probably argue that if wish 3 doesn't execute on the second loop then wish 1 can't be ignored, and so it goes back to the original interpretation and gets stuck in a loop, but that is a bad take. The manner of interpretation is sequential, even if recursion is implemented. It doesn't (can't) get reinterpreted as a whole. The moment you're told not to do the next step, you're done. So you just wished for no wishes. Good job, you fooled yourself. Go take an algorithms class.
Furthermore, pretty sure any sensible genie would say "sorry, all wishes are final" or "I'm a genie. I'm literally incapable of ignoring your wishes. That or, "you're attempting to create an infinite loop in logic that I couldn't possibly execute on because it creates a paradox. But literally nothing in you're wishes does anything but effect other wishes, having absolutely no noticeable external effect on the world so... done. Enjoy your weird self-satisfaction over having the ability to reshape all of reality on your personal whim and still achieving literally no effect on the universe. Your mother was right about you. Go fuck yourself."
Me, presented with a nice man who just offered to do three favors no-strings-attached: "How can I fuck with this guy?"
I mean let's be honest with each other he's cute, right?
Love a man with a tasteful earring. And he clearly works out
Wow, I could actually hear that error message. 😅
That's smart. I like it