I used to love computing as a hobby, but now it feels like it's a source of evil in the world, how have you dealt with this?
It feels like all the joy I used to feel from being an enthusiast has been completely voided as computing has become the modern vector for fascism and surveillance. I find myself recoiling from all online spaces, even independent and open source ones that I'd loved and supported in the past.
It's been an exceptionally strange impulse to go from having an elaborate online presence to now feeling like the only acceptable way to engage with the network is to have as minimal of an online footprint as possible.
This especially hurts when it feels like an issue of skilling, where I know how to do certain tasks with computers, but have to teach myself for the first time the analogue alternatives that my parents and their parents likely already knew well.
How have you chosen to deal with it? Do you find yourself moving away from computing and the internet, despite formerly loving it as a hobby? Have you replaced things that computers used to do for you with analogue replacements?
I'm curious how other people are experiencing this.
My parents got a new car and they thought I’d be impressed that it has an iPad for a dashboard and knows who’s driving by using your phone.
And 20 years ago that would have been cool. But now? Now all I see is data harvesting, bad UI, and expensive repairs that must be done at the stealership.
Tech used to be something fun and new, that gave you freedoms and abilities you never thought were possible. But now it’s just another way for companies to ship expensive crap and exploit us. I’d much rather have my dumb car that makes fart noises and won’t even shift without my help.
One thing I did like is that the interior door handles are well-made and easily accessible.
“Stealership”
Ima be… uhh… leasing that. Thanks.
For 36 months with no money down at our spring savings event!
36 month loans are rookie numbers. They’re selling the big expensive trucks on 72month loans.
More than 1/3 of auto loans are over 6 years and they end up paying more that 80% more interest.
Honestly, working on and around the infotainment systems in modern cars is not as bad as I thought it would be. It just takes a different set of skills and knowledge than car guys are used to. I recently added android auto to my 10 year old car, which involved adding a circuit board that goes between the existing screen and it's OEM circuit board.
Retrofitting infotainment on your terms is entirely different from dealing with it preinstalled in a new car. For example, I'm betting yours doesn't have an unskippable popup warning about paying attention to the road that you have to dismiss every time you turn on the car. Or telemetry that rats out your driving behavior to the manufacturer and/or the insurance company and/or law enforcement. Or other sorts of adware or malware.
And considering that you had to add it to begin with, it definitely doesn't disable the entire car if you try to remove it or otherwise neuter the hostile misfeatures.
Especially when the software required to reprogram the modules costs thousands of dollars, if it’s even available at all.
Oh we have a Volvo S60 and it has a screen but the map app is so bad that we put our phone there while driving, but every time you go into reverse you can't see the back driving camera. How does your retrofitted system teal with stuff like that?
Perfectly. The setup retains all stock functions.
I got it from these guys: https://www.gtacarkits.com/
I really want to gut my car's infotainment system. I'm just worried about the resale value and whether or not part of this shit is somehow critical to the vehicle now.
Not like there's any useful manuals on this shit out there. And the manufacturer is incentivized to actively thwart my efforts.
"bad UI"
Especially that one!!!
There are certain things that should be buttons that don’t move. The hazard flashers, for instance.
They should not be an icon on the “dashboard” that goes away when you’re trying to change the temperature.
Capitalism: how much can you improve a fork? Let's build society around that and see!
ditch the marxist leninism and you'll have a whole new view on everything in the world
it's a cult and it's broken your brain
computers are still just computers and still do vast amounts of good
heard of linux?
Oh yeah Linux you know that technology built with Marxist Leninism principles is really great.
It is tech built by and for the people at no cost to them simply to make the computing world better for everyone.
Perhaps you should examine your own brain since you can't comprehend the words you're trying to use.
Make your shit work for you again. Learn to self-host and embrace open source.
This is exactly what I did. Part of it is reminding ourselves the old Net didn’t update just by scrolling and every website wasn’t filled with infinite people engaging. It’s slow.
this.....this is what did it for me.
Got any advice on how to start doing that, for someone who considers themselves tech-savvy, but not enough to know how to self host, or to know the open source alternatives yet?
For self hosting stuff, you can follow this https://youtu.be/jFrGhodqC08 its a tutorial on how you can host your own website and teaches knowledge you can transfer onto self-hosting dockerized services.
Thank you!
BTW, dont feel bad if it seems like it takes a lot of time to move forward through steps, its a very condensed 10 min video. Each step when done for the first time can take a while to grasp and learn
That's fair. At least I got an starting point now even if it's hard at first.
Definitely try things out on a little single board computer (SBC) like a Pi, or a VM (virtual machine), or even an old laptop. It's harder to break things than you might think, especially when using containers and stuff, but it does happen.
Rolling back or reinstalling a VM is sometimes way less hassle than trying to decipher cryptic issues.
It'll feel easier to play around if you can always just start over, as opposed to risking "I hope this works" with your precious data.
Oh yeah, whatever you do (and I know this is hard advice given the price of storage now, UGH), figure out what a 3-2-1 backup strategy looks like to you, for your most important things.
Most importantly: Have fun! Sounds cheesy, but having an exciting goal in mind will definitely encourage you to keep learning and enjoying the process. :)
+1
Partial solution to a partial problem. But necessary step for a first step.
Cut it down, your computer is not a source of evil. Especially if its a second or third hand buy. People think life is about control, its not. Life is full of things that we cannot control, can only influence, or can only really observe on an individual scale. Now what really helps is activism. Get out with a group of people to affect change. Put more good into the world than evil and your hobbies matter a little less (given they are benign)
What's interesting and I think is tied into that "people think life is about control" is that I am deeply convinced that the tech barons learned to hate democracy because administering computers and networks is not democratic in nature at all. An admin always has access and controls for everything, nobody votes an admin into position. Hell, we've seen numerous Fediverse sites come and go because being an admin is actually a huge task, especially if you're handling it on your own. Even with that power diffused among multiple administrators, it can often be difficult escape the hierarchical nature of how computers are designed at their core.
As you point out, this isn't evil, this is a type of tool. Like all tools, it can be used for good or ill, to build or to destroy. Currently we are being overrun with people who want to use it to control everyone else. They certainly think life is about control, and it's part of why they are so deeply unhappy.
It's also why the open source world is so fucking precious. The Cathedral versus the Bazaar. The bazaar style of development is such a massive deal because we could extrapolate this kind of governance to other parts of society. I worry deeply for a potential schism in the open source community when Linus Torvalds stops developing from old age or disease or just dying randomly in a car crash.
Open Source is that good that computers are being used for. Outside the corporate funded open source, there's so many tiny little open source projects for almost anything imaginable, all shared freely so others can bear the fruits as well.
Tech barons have never administered computer.
I feel the same way sometimes. Here's what I've been up to:
This.
If something is a vector for evil, it's crucial that we invest good in it. And with tech it's doable and quite enjoyable i'd say.
Same here. I have been moving everything I can to self hosted FOSS, contributing to FOSS projects, and rehabbing old hardware. It’s been fun, I’ve met people from around the world and I’m getting tools I like to be even better.
Locally, I’m working with the library to start Linux days, where we help fix old computers and move them to Linux. There’s been a lot of interest due to Win11.
Compute to battle the evils.
Make open source tools to remove dependency on corporate spyware.
Create smaller low power AI assistants to make the giants redundant.
Create websites that inform rather than misdirect and out-market the evil ones.
Not proposing it's easy or even realistic, but it's the same battle that always was.
A friend of mine asked me why I put forth so much work into protecting my privacy when my best efforts still amount to a leaky seive. I'll never forget my reply - "Just because I'm losing doesn't mean the fight isn't worthwhile … if we give up, the open internet dies with [my generation]. For me, success is keeping the idea alive to be rediscovered by the next generation. If I don't do it, what hope do they have?"
I wasn't super into DC comics, but the cartoons were what was on when I would stay with my grandmother, and a certain episode of Superman with Dr Fate really moved me.
There was some terrible magical threat, and Superman had tried to get Dr Fate to help, but he refused with something like, "I've banished this threat countless times, yet every time it returns stronger. No matter how hard I fight, mankind continues to torment one another. Evil continues to rear its ugly head. I don't know if I can still triumph, and I'm so very tired." And Superman was like "F U I'll do it myself,"
While Superman was fighting, Dr Fate suddenly showed up with the assist and managed to seal away the bad dude. Superman said something like, "I thought you were done with this fight," and Dr Fate's response has stuck with me all these decades:
"You made me realize evil isn't the only force that keeps coming back."
Any tool can be used for good or for evil. Try not to get sucked into the doom spiral, there are plenty of FOSS and adjacent projects making the world a better place.
This. Use as much ethical open source software as possible for you, while supporting and advocating for important projects in that space. And don't let yourself get sucked into some closed platform or ecosystem you don't like. For communication and social media, use only open and decentralized servers/protocols. Use as much end to end and strong encryption as possible. Minimize your data footprint. Buy from local and ethical shops. Be the change you want to see in the world.
Moving back to analog wherever I could, re-learn and re-use the old ways as much as possible. And also taking back control, and ownership, over my tech.
I've been using a computer since the early 80s and have been online regularly probably somewhere around the late 80s, first through BBS. Luckily for me, while I was self-learning that new computer and digital stuff, I was also taught the classic ‘analog’ ways of doing things. Things like writing longhand, or using snail mail. So, the moment I realized I could not trust nor agree with techs, I started:
After 40+ years being an Apple user, a few years ago I fully switched to GNU/LInux and to Libre software. My only regret? I should have switched years earlier.
I use to love playing video games. When MMOS hit I was all for it. It would be like play D&D all the time with your friends. I just wanted to hang with my friends but the min/maxers hit and then the constant grind. I quit caring.
This is exactly how I feel right now.
I turned my hobby into a career and now I fucking hate it. Soulless evil billionaires turned it into a fucking dystopia machine. I really can't see any exit from this other than changing my entire field. But, no other field I could work into would pay my mortgage and enable me to afford food.
You'd have to start at the bottom as well and that presents its own set of problems beyond financial ones. They trap us on these ladders and laugh at us.
Self hosting, trying to get progressively more serious about privacy and security.
I've gotten into Amateur Radio, you need a license to transmit but you gain access to a lot of cool stuff. The Ham bands are a non-commercalized space where experimentation and the sharing of technical knowledge are highly esteemed. There's no ISP or hidden tech bro to moderate the experience, your limits are your skill, equipment, and the privileges of your license. On High Frequencies there are propagation effects that cause your signal to travel thousands of miles enabling the potential for worldwide communications given proper conditions.
Not OP, but, thank you for this, I will take a look at Amateur Radio.Got any advice (or more like pointers) for self hosting, privacy and security? To me, it seems like a huge effort, both to learn and to keep it up.
My biggest pointer would be to look at it as a journey rather than a destination. You'll never be a ghost online or self-host everything. But you can mitigate a lot more than you might imagine. Get an old pc to use as a server and experiment with a few services. Start with Jellyfin in a Podman container and then maybe try Pihole. It can take a lot of time to setup initially when you dont know what you're doing but it gets easier.
Okay, thank you, will try to get an old pc when I can afford one to experiment with these and some others things
I'm getting more involved in that I'm discovering more open source projects that I can support.
Open source really gives me hope. Instead of a profit motive, communities form and work together out of passion and dedication to a project or idea.
That's really invigorating to me. And, in many ways, can often be a big fuck you to our capitalist overlords. I'm working on presentations and such to teach my friends and spread the word about various projects and better op sec to make it all the harder to harvest our data.
I'm dealing with it by spending my time around you fellows. It feels like the old days of the internet over here, back when it was just us nerds. Honestly though? I feel like I'm going to end up one of those Amish like hermits, living in the woods and swearing off technology. Especially when the surveillance becomes suffocating.
We should built our own internet, with blackjack and hookers!
I have thought about this also. Especially when it comes to mobile technology. For most of my career I have been an advocate of mobile technology like smartphones, I have recommended it, I have set it up for people, and now I look at the world and honestly wonder if we wouldn't be a better place without smartphones.
Thing is, we are iron mongers. We build tools. We give people tools. "It is not the tool that determines its work, it is the mind mind of the man who holds the tool that does." (-Brannon LaBoeuf).
Does that absolve me of all responsibility? No not a chance. But it does offer s or a suggested path forward.
The harm that comes from computing for the most part, IMHO, doesn't come from users. It comes from people who exploit the users and users who don't realize they are being exploited. Meta, TikTok, Snap, Google, etc. these are the guys causing the problem.
So as technologists, we have an opportunity to change course. To show those who rely on us ways to use technology without being exploited. Yeah I realized to some degree it's a drop in the ocean, trying to piss up a rope but there are little victories to be had.
In short, be the change.
Yeah, for ages I thought pocket computers were the coolest idea. I loved my Palm devices, for instance!
The iPhone turned everything into a direct brain-line to exploitative commercial interests and that became the norm. I think that's where things went wrong.
The economy of attention has been one of the most destructive forces of our modern culture.
"Smartphones" would look a lot different if they were designed as tools for users, instead of profit farming equipment for tech giants. I don't think we would be seeing nearly as much harmful addiction and spying and de-educating if these stupid things weren't designed primarily for "maximum engagement at all costs."
Some of these little victories I'm seeing are Linux phones and people designing cyberdecks!
I think you're on the right track, but I wouldn't blame the iphone. The iphone was just a natural evolution of what came before it- Windows Mobile, PalmOS, etc. Even on those platforms we were starting to see things like gestural navigation. Iphone was just one of the first to trade a single-touch resistive touchscreen for a multi-touch capacitive touchscreen and go all in on gestural.
No, the problem is engagement algorithms. I blame Facebook for this most of all.
Go back quite a ways and Facebook wasn't the mess it was today- you'd go there and see a simple time-ordered list of posts by your friends (and that's it). I believe people still want that. But the problem is you can 'catch up' on that-- hit the end of new content, to what you've already seen last visit, and then you leave. Thus it's generally no longer an option on any social site, you instead get a 'feed' of some friends' content mixed with random crap the system thinks you'll engage with (and it learns quickly). That was starting to be a thing on desktop- I'm reminded of this video from when Facebook started pushing 'timeline' feeds on people rather than just simple posts. Original iphone was only 2007.
THAT is the problem IMHO. Smartphones just happened to show up at the same time, so instead of being a time-suck on your desktop those algorithms became a central line IV to time-suck your brain all the time. Algorithms were the problem, smartphones were the force multiplier.
With that said- I don't think smartphones are the problem today, but I do think that the overall ecosystem favors the time-suckers too much. For example I think every smartphone should have the option to deny Internet access to every app (BlackBerry had that back in the day). And if that screws up your ad supported business model too fucking bad, just make the app refuse to work without Internet and enjoy your 1 star reviews.
I think half the problem is platforms that entrap people. My partner for example (much less tech savvy than myself) has 1000s of photos in Facebook, because that used to be where it's easiest to make and share albums. Getting those out of Facebook while keeping the album structure or the comments from others would be very difficult, and Meta wants it that way.
Same thing with Google- they make it real easy to upload all your photos (which has the fun side effect of giving Google a location graph of your entire travel history, and a social graph of everyone you know).
The other half is as you say, attention suckers. I don't think the phone is itself designed for attention sucking (it's just a little computer with a touchscreen and a wireless modem), but the apps sure as hell are.
Fixing the first is at least possible for technologists. Self-host, show people alternatives.
Fixing the attention problem is much, much, much harder. It starts with kids- kids grow up with 'digital babysitter' ipads, and if you see any of the kids ipad and video programming it might as well be brain-frying crack for kids (bright colors, playful music, quick scene changes). So kiddo's brain is fried from 2-3yo on up. I know a few teachers and I can say parents DGAF about education anymore, when a kid does badly the teacher is more likely to get yelled at for giving a bad grade to their perfect little schnookums who tried as hard as he could. It's now policy that kids who don't pass will just be rubber stamped to the next grade- again and again. I read an article a few months ago that college professors are having to rework their curriculums because many of the college students can't read (or are scoring at middle school level for reading comprehension).
You can pass a law banning phones in schools but what the hell difference does that make if the kid goes back on TikTok the second the bell rings and never cracks a book?
I don't know what the answer there is. But I know it requires some serious societal-level rethinking, including accepting that it's okay to be bored.
Right there with you! The "attention economy" has absolutely wreaked havoc on humankind. They're at the core of all of this.
I suppose the reason I put so much blame on the devices is because of all these little design choices with both the hardware and the OS.
For example: Not having access to the file system, the radios always being on, being very anti-repairable, and like you said, apps not being sandboxed by default.
THIS so much! We're gonna be an iPadless household, and I'm telling everyone: If they gift anything cocomelon or equivalent, it's gonna go right back, thanks but no thanks.
Yeah, education has also been seriously screwed up, I could write entire paragraphs about that too. From "no child left behind" to "whole-word reading" dropping phonics (someone shared an excellent podcast series called "Sold a Story" about that disaster. Basically it taught kids to read like your phone keyboard predicts words. Exactly as insane as it sounds.)
A lot of education has to happen in the home, and we're several generations into practically unparented kids, whether just plain negligent and broken households or mom and/or dad both slaving their lives away at careers, unable to do any actual parenting and expecting the abused employees of the sabotaged barely-limping school system to do it for them.
I know we often don't see it, but there are a lot of bright young people out there, and they inspire others to be bright. I remain optimistic.
And I agree...I think people need to learn to sit with boredom and channel that, without a thousand expensive keys jangling in their faces the whole time. :)
I appreciate the thoughtful reply!
I also appreciate the thoughtful conversation. It's sadly rare these days. I was on Reddit since before the Digg migration, I fell in love with the place becuase there was always good conversations happening. Sadly now it's mostly just noise. Lemmy seems a little better.
I disagree about your analysis of hardware though. Some of that applies to Apple perhaps, but not Android. I have filesystem access on my phone. Radios can be turned off if I want. There's full service manuals available, as well as spare parts and tools/jigs so I can fix it myself if I want. And apps ARE sandboxed, although I wish there was more control on the sandboxing (IE firewall for internet disable).
Problem with that last one is it largely kills ad supported apps as a business model. If the app doesn't inherently need Internet to work, user will shut it off and then it can't serve ads. I'm not sure that'd be a bad thing, but it'd require some rethinks.
Hope your kids know how lucky they are.
That's true, but it's largely not happening. I know some people who work in education. It's now official policy to rubber stamp kids into the next grade if they aren't passing- someone decided that it's more socially damaging to hold a kid back than it's worth. So kids get behind and never catch up but they keep getting rubber stamped through the system.
Quite true. I struggle with this. It's so easy to just fire up instagram or something. But you're right, bordem leads to creativity.
This reminds me of a book I read many many years ago, it was a scifi book of some kind. The story as I recall- this dude gets kidnapped by aliens for some reason, they explain that they were debating blowing up the Earth because we were making too much tech progress too fast and civilizations that do that usually become a threat to their neighbors once they have weapons and stellar travel without the maturity that should go with it. But they found a different solution- they sent someone to Earth in disguise to invent television and slow down the rate of our advancement. Only then we created computers and people started getting smarter and progress accelerated again so they were worried they'd have to blow up the planet.
I think of that story and wonder, 'if that were a true story, I bet their second solution was to invent social media'.
Back in the early days of Reddit there was a thread, what would be the hardest part of modern tech to explain to someone 100+ years ago?. Highest voted answer was something like 'everybody carries in their pocket a device that cost hundreds of billions of dollars to develop. It can quickly access and display any piece of knowledge or art or music known to man, it can communicate in real time with anyone else on the planet, and it contains the equivalent of a full photography studio, movie editing room, and can publish to the entire world. We all use them to argue with strangers, publish photographs of our food, and look at pictures of cats.'
They way I see it, computers are tools. They can just as easily be used for good as evil.
If people were going around smashing vehicles with hammers, we would (hopefully) work on better law enforcement than ban hammers. Same sort of thing with computers, we need standards and regulations.
I think the actual reality is that governments and justice systems were designed for a pen-and-paper era where letters were still delivered by horsedriven stagecoach.
I think that's the real task: designing a new type of democratic governance that can keep up with the speed of societal change and technological change.
"The gears of justice turn slowly" made sense in the stagecoach era, because life moved slowly. It does not make sense in an era where we can disseminate information worldwide instantly for pennies.
Leaving IT. Gardening. Trading pc nerdery for soil science nerdage.
What of you're in IT and are ready to leave but don't like gardening or woodworking?
I still like electricity. Maybe I can be a part time electrician.
Check your local IBEW to see if they have any apprenticeships.
You too? I don't have any soil so my garden is all in pots, but it's doing good. The tulips were glorious - I love a tulip - my first rose flowered yesterday, my opium poppies are thriving, and my tomato seeds finally germinated.
These days I only use a computer for minimum essential work stuff, and my steam deck. I work outdoors too. I have less money but I'm fitter and happier.
Edit - if you're into soil science, two words - compost toilet. Total game changer.
I'm actually debating between bokashi or traditional composting; probably going to end up doing both. Pretty sure my wife would veto a composting toilet.
Today's our wedding anniversary so maybe I'll ask for a composter and bokashi starter kit to celebrate 11 years.
Here's some of our gardens and a WIP greenhouse.
Wow, that looks gorgeous! I'm in a different situation, because everything has to be in pots. You can see the lavender in the foreground just getting going, the orange flowers are mostly calendula and California poppies. The tree is a cherry - looks like it'll fruit this year! And I've got a couple of bonsai apples. Tomatoes and chillies are still germinating, I've got a tiny greenhouse for them. The red flower is a rose, first of the season. Tulips are pretty much finished, and daffodils are looking gone. I've done gladioli on the way tho. With so much stuff and so little space I have to feed them, I use an organic seaweed thingie.
I love your container garden! Everything looks happy. I'm excited for you getting cherries. It gets too cold for most fruits here but that's why we got the greenhouse.
I was looking for a tech positive outlook and found solarpunk for myself. Since then I've learned a lot that doesn't have to do with tech, but also on the topic of how technology can empower people. It helps I was already an environmentalist before.
I started looking a lot more into contributing to open source projects. I started looking into decentralized networks like lora radios. I self host a lot more. Got rid of Google on my phone...
Biggest issue is the job. With my attitude change my well paid corporate tech job has become soul sucking.
Q: "How have you dealt with this?"
A: Poorly.
Make new hobby gym. All health. No evil.
Like many have said here : open source is one way to cure your technodepression. Little project are happy to get you involved. I have helped many project without being a dev.
Computing itself is fine. I can still do most everything I used to do on my PC pre-popular internet. I have essentially no cloud services on my PC.
However, the internet itself is a dumpster fire. It always was, except you had to deliberately looking for those places and they tended to be isolated back in the day.
Of course monetization destroyed the internet with corporations doing everything possible to carve it up and shove their ads and billionaire-controlled media slant in front of you, and their engagement-bait feeding of lies and giving a platform to controversy and stupidity on social media.
Most all of the good spaces are gone. Very few exist in anything remotely close to their original form, they’ve been corporatized, disappeared, or swallowed up by places like Reddit.
If someone picks up a chair and hits a person with it, is the chair now evil? Should you avoid using chairs because of the potential hurt they can cause? Computers are the same.
Focus on the positive and don’t dwell on the negative. Play games, tinker with hardware and open-source software. Get off platforms like Reddit/Lemmy where negativity is much more pervasive.
Of course, if you find yourself “recoiling from all online spaces” then consider alternative hobbies that give you the same level of satisfaction.
For every bad thing there are good things.
Linux starting to go mainstream and duel boot is 90% not required anymore.
I know a kid that uses a local AI model to help him write. Where he couldn't barely communicate before.
For every social media site there are places like this or the tildeverse that let people communicate and build relationships.
For every tech bro there is a kid that doesn't feel like they belong anywhere making friends online that he finally clicks with. There is me helping some person in a chat room on IRC fix a Linux issue that I don't know and will never meet and get nothing from just because its nice and fun to help people.
Duel boot - is that why Microsoft keeps erasing the Linux partition. Didn't realize it was a contest.
(Excuse me, know what you meant and not usually the spelling police, but this made me laugh)
No worries I'm keeping it misspelled as it is indeed funny
I am lucky that I got a job that is, if not doing good, at least not doing something evil. And I get to play with cool hardware. Not something practicable for everyone, I know. But those jobs are out there.
Besides, I have met many people with similar feelings recently. You are not alone. I don't know how to find those people where you live. But for instance, there are many people helping worthwhile causes with the tech side.
Personally, I might have to use two phones in the future, kind of like how I saw some do in China. One for the official, mandated bullshit, and one for personal things, with an operating system that does not snitch on every action I take.
but how will you make sure the mandatory phone does not snitch on you when it's around you? Considering you'll probably keep it at home, maybe even bring it with you when out and about when needed for some reason.
It will snitch on me, it already does. Somehow we accepted that constant tracking is a cool feature and not a horrifying virus. But it can't see what happens on the other phone, right? And, I can still turn it off, keep it in a drawer, and that limits most of the tracking. Still, not impossible, but much harder.
you can't actually turn it off unless you can disconnect all power sources
True.
But off is a lot better than on, still. Modern high-speed radios use quite a bit of juice. So at most, it would keep some microcontroller on for predefined functions, and wake up every now and then. It simply isnt practical to keep the big stuff on for more than a few days or so.
If you want to avoid even that, get a phone with removable battery. Or put it in a metal box. A tin can with a bit of aluminium foil around the seal gets you 60+ dB dampening.
Don't let perfect be the enemy of good.
I'm not trying to poke fun at you, but I found that we can really apply what you said there to a lot of other aspects of life and it wouldn't sound too crazy these days.
Tools are tools. The car brings you from point A to point B. That point B can be your home where you feel safe, or right into some person to hurt or even kill them. The kitchen knife lets you cut your veges, but you can also cut off someone else's finger. But do we say we should stop using these tools because of how badly other people are using them?
What you're tired of is people being irresponsible, people wanting to act with impunity, to gain dangerous powers, to threaten others, to satisfy only themselves, be it sadistic, sexual, egotistic, self-compensation, or whatever. The problem lies in certain groups of people, not the tool. Why are we fussing over the tool when it's the people that we need to deal with? Sure, we can argue that the tool makes doing the harm easier, and yes we should try to find ways to build better, safer tools, or control who gets to use the tools, but it never removes people's abilities to do harm through other means. Not having the Internet and technology just means that these harms are more localized and muted. A tree fell in the forest and no one was there to hear it, but it also means no one knows if someone's actually there and they're hurt because of it.
No you're absolutely correct. I've found it harder to have faith in other people as much as I did when I was a little younger, because of the state of the world and the lack of movement on the part of people around me. I think part of the struggle I'm having is that computers aren't a hobby one engages with in a vacuum. If someone was really into knitting and all of the sudden half the knitting community got into fascism for some reason, that person could reasonably go on knitting in the comfort of their own home without feeling like it is in any way contributing to or condoning those fascist knitters. But with computers, half the hobby is the joy of networking! Of these shared spaces created by tying computers together in new and interesting ways. Which unfortunately have now created a wicked gestalt surveillance apparatus. Hell is other people and their computers?
I get your sentiment, but I'll use your argument against you here: just as computing as a hobby doesn't exist in a vacuum, the enjoyment of any hobby doesn't exist in one either. I get it if you're feeling guilty by association — lots amongst us are likely feeling that way, and I started off thinking that way too, even if I, demonstrably, am not contributing to the enablement of that evil. The person knitting at home for leisure may get lumped with the fascist knitters. Their techniques at knitting up beautiful sweaters that they've shared is being used to make fascist uniforms, used as a symbol of repression. It's disappointing, but it should not be reason for us to give up on this space we've created and allow these forces of evil to take up the whole space and allow the hobby, the technique, the tool, to truly and fully become monopolized by these forces. That evil isn't going away by us staying quiet and just leaving the space; the tools are already there, and if we just passively shy away from pushing back, then the tools and narrative are theirs to control.
And all this is why it's important for us to continue participating in the discourse, even if we don't actively push back against that force. We show that normality exists, that not all the people in the space is some dickhead.
At least that's what my optimistic side is telling me, and my pessimistic side wants to believe that we can actually do that so that I don't just fine up on humanity entirely.
Yeah I get it. I stopped posting on Reddit, and only will on the fediverse, but even that feels like a surveillance nightmare.
Honestly, these days I try and spend as much time just not on the computer, going outside, building physical stuff, and hanging with friends.
And I would say that, while still problematic, video games honestly feel like the least toxic part of computing these days. Buying a $60 game and playing the hell out of it with friends, (or a genuinely well written game like cyberpunk or control) is still rewarding and feels non toxic.
I got into an outdoors hobby. Healthier for me anyway.
Um I'm not a very tech savvy person. From my perspective, computing is also the only resource left to maintain our rightful freedom over tech. The Internet is meant to be free. Tech is supposed to be yours. Yes, there are exploitative assholes using technology to suck the joy out of you. But I celebrate the people who find and share ways to bypass, circumvent, and nullify this abuse. Which is also computing, right?
Its a tool that can be used for cool or evil things, like any other tool.
I grew up as a computer nerd kid in the 90s with my first computer being a 386 DX 66mhz off brand IBM PC clone with 8mb ram.
I was put on this earth to do computer stuff no doubt about it. I was the first on my block with dialup. I was the first on my block with DSL. I was the first kid on my block with cable internet. Taught myself C when I was 15 and and a software engineer professionally over a decade without any college education.
With that being said, what we call “AI” (LLMs) completely exhausts me and I have absolutely no interest about AI garbage. I am depressed because AI exists to cheapen literally everything I have a passion for.
When I was young I always wanted to be at the head of technology and always stay up to date with it I’d read books and news daily. Always had a genuine passion for it, but I can’t stand it now.
I just stay stuck in the 90s and play old consoles like PlayStation and N64. That gives me comfort and I know there’s no AI slop in those games.
We have similar stories! Except I was way out in the country where the fastest internet available was 26.4kbps dialup (the phone lines were too old to support anything faster and there was no cable). Mine was an overclocked 486 IBM clone with 8mb ram and like 600 or 800 MB HD.
I recently saw a colleague post on that one professional network that "he guessed he wouldn't get to write code himself anymore". That's depressing as hell to me. Everyone's minds work differently. I find that writing code gives me new ideas that I wouldn't have come to otherwise. It's a loss of creative process. And it's tragic. Like sometime saying "I guess we won't paint any paintings ourselves anymore". What an incredible tragedy.
I used to be a thief, as a hobby, but I feel way less guilty about it nowadays.
We need actual human programmed things as alternative to the AI wastelands, so please keep at it.
Every time something you like sells out to AI, make a clone of it or find an AI free clone version already made.
knowledge is power. I've grown to really hate technology, but being knowledgeable about it has helped me to stay safer in the dystopia. buy a phone with an unlockable bootloader and install a custom ROM. code your own apps, I learned java within the span of 3 days to make my own WebView apps of mobile sites instead of making a Google account or using the play store. people who have never been into tech can't do this kind of stuff. you're smart about the digital footprint though, I've been minimizing where I can since 2024 because I saw the writing on the wall even back then.
My view is that most technology is a tool, like a screwdriver. You can carefully and enjoyably use it to build something useful, helpful, enjoyable. Or you can use it like a psycho.
I bike more.
It's not computing that is evil necessarily. It's the corporate privatization of compute that is going to be the issue in the coming years and decades. Like so many things in the modern world, they want you renting it, not owning it.
Keep working to own it yourself, and use it to help fight the battles that need to be fought.
I don't have any friends or any other hobbies. Financial situation is not so good rn and so even if I wanted to, don't really feel like spending money for hobby or something.
I don't really know what others definition of "computing" is but if it's just about having an Internet addiction, then it's something I've had for as long as I can remember. I didn't have friends in elementary school but I had access to the Internet while at school and other spaces.
It's all just coping for me. Without the Internet, I'd probably become the next Luigi or something.
I'm sorry you're not doing so well. FWIW, I am the same way. Aside from my support worker and my cats, the internet is the only thing I really have. I don't see the internet as "just something to do". It is my life. I have no friends or family. Just internet.
I do volunteer work, that is some humble support for the network and printers and the poor win11 users of a very decent charity organisation that works with kids and elderly people.
Brings me down to earth rather good, away from all my complicated self-hosting or AI or political problems.
I'm still all in. It's just getting harder to find good software. Most of it is older and starting to bit rot. My tolerance for digital BS is at an all-time low. Any sort of dark pattern from a website and I don't hesitate to nope out.
I still think computing is really interesting. The problem is the same as it ever was; a tool being hijacked and used by the owner class to subjugate the workers.
I am experiencing the exact same thing, but in my mind it's a disillusionment not with tech itself but with tech products.
I have my Linux PC set up so that I can use it on the couch at home while hanging out with my family. I have a smart phone, but I consciously try to use it as little as possible.
Now instead of following the details of the next generation of phones/consoles/GPUs/AIs, I like to tinker with existing technology that I haven't learned yet. And since I work on computer stuff at work all day, I try to spend my time at home doing analog stuff based in the real world, ideally outdoors even if that means my own yard.
I think it’s still safe to nerd out on Linux and codeberg and games. So I’ve gone there and don’t bother with Facebook or any of those social services. I’ve never found them that enticing anyways. It always felt like a trap and a disengenuous way to engage others.
Agree with a lot of other sentiment : build more offline life. I think it’s the way we gotta go. I mostly see people on rl too rather than text online if the distance permits it
I completely get it. It's been so demonized in recent years that it's completely understandable to feel this way. I literally can't fathom how I was ever excited to take an AI course 3-4 years ago in grad school lol
Here's how I've been dealing with it without letting it crush my interest in computing.
In terms of online spaces:
There's always an alternative. You being on Lemmy right now is evidence of this. The big media conglomerates want you to believe there are no alternatives. That's how they function, they use social pressure to get you to conform. Enough friends badger you to get facebook and you eventually get a facebook, even if you hate it.
Gradually move away from these circles, don't allow yourself to be pressured.
The internet is a vaster ecospace than you can possibly imagine, despite how many people believe it's limited to cycling between the same 3-4 apps. You should try checking out Neocities sometime if you don't believe me. Other people who haven't allowed their passions for computing to be drowned out still exist, it's just that the voices of the mundane crowd who don't know anything about computing or have ever had any desire to learn are louder and currently propagate the online space.
Also, never underestimate the power of rigid filters. You'll begin to notice so many other things once every other post you see is no longer a catastrophic news update about how the 1% is currently raping the earth and ruining life for the average citizen. It can feel tempting to always stay "in the loop"... but the truth is, most of the things we stay up to date on aren't as important as we think they are.
Yeah, maybe them building an AI data center in your local district seems like urgent news you have to have... but you already knew these data centers are bad and being built everywhere. You were probably already going to vote against that the next chance you got in a local election. Beyond that, if you aren't planning any local protests... the most productive thing you'd do that day is vent anger online about it with other strangers. Seriously, try to limit your intake to just world news and a local newspaper or the most important stuff that happened that week. If a new war starts I assure you there's no way you'll miss it.
In terms of AI:
Here's a really simple platitude that actually helps more than you think.
"Blame the artist, not the pencil."
It's just another tool, not the end of civilization or the "singularity", or anything people really want to build it up to be. Quite frankly, it's not that cool or spooky at all. I'm 1000 times more spooked by the trends I've seen develop in humans dialing back basic data privacy rights than I am about ChatGPT's actual capabilities.
In fact, I use AI regularly. It's all about balance, just like any other tool you use with computer literacy. You don't download random files, click weird links, or upload your social security number. Same principles with AI.
As draining as it is to find a new AI spyware thing I have to uninstall everytime my browser updates or I open a Microsoft program these days, AI itself is not this big evil thing. And if you have less patience for it than I do, someone who stops to look up the instructions on how to manually disable OneDrive updates in Administrative Tools to stop reinstalling Copilot, take the other people's advice in this thread and go completely open source. Try Linux. It may save you a huge headache in the long run.
Lastly, in terms of creative liberty:
Always remember that the online space was created for us, not for them.
I love messing around with Stylus these days and especially publicly made GreasyFork scripts to see just how much I can break websites and get them to do my bidding. While everyone else is lamenting bad website updates with angry "Goodbye forever" and "I've unsubscribed!! (yes I was paying)" posts, I've already fixed the issue with a script or some basic coding.
In addition, uBlock Origin, VPNs, PopUpOff and a handful of other useful extensions are all your friends, and will help save you from countless hours of irritation of having to navigate spaces with no functional UI in mind. I haven't had issues viewing an article on some offbrand newssite or a mainstream paywall in ages. I found out they banned imgur in my country because of lemmy posts, not because I couldn't access it.
And never throw in the towel because something's "gone forever". I've already found a new piracy website after the last 5 went down. I've already started migrating pages from archive.org to archive.is. Someone has already reuploaded the entire decades old collection of english dub One Piece episodes that went down because of a copyright strike. You know what they say, "Once it's out on the internet, it stays there forever."
Final thoughts
From one computer enthusiast to another, don't let the current state of the world take away your passions from you. Remember, at the end of the day, these are all just tools. It only matters what you do with them.
Here's a little video I'll leave with you in case it helps cheer you up.
Microsoft Windows 95 Launch with Bill Gates & Jay Leno (1995) (be prepared, it's corny as hell lol)
"In fact, I use AI regularly", not critisiing because that's the world we live in now. But its also obvious. My question is are you just directing your life, and then projecting it with your Jarvis? No judgement. Just curious.
Speaking for myself, there are many things that I couldn't ever hope to do before AI became popularized. I don't speak Japanese, can't draw, lack the money to hire humans, let alone give them a fair wage. Any dreams I wanted to fulfill, simply are not possible without skill, social connections, and wealth. I lacked agency long before the rise of AI.
With AI tools, I can translate or retranslate foreign games, which is quite nice for me. There are quite a few niche games that won't ever receive much attention, being only of interest to a select few humans. Hoping for the good luck of another person to donate their time and life to such causes, isn't practical.
Plus, I don't particularly like the nuts and bolts of computing. I am having a hard time getting the .git of DevilutionX to build, because it is missing SDL.h, and the repository instructions seem dated. An AI would likely understand how to fix that issue, any other weird technical problems. Learning the dependencies, console commands, and so forth is just something I don't want to do with my lifespan. I want to just enjoy my media, without technical hurdles getting in the way.
Lede: buried.
Up front you say you don’t speak Japanese and can’t draw, two things people have been doing for hundreds of years and millennia respectively. It seemed a little odd, since there’s maybe never been a time when resources to learn to speak or read a new language or draw are so universally available.
Then it’s down at the bottom: “learning … is just not something I want to do…”
That’s not a judgement of you. Everyone makes this choice all the time. It’s just an observation.
I still like occasional tinkering with computers, not in depth but on a Linux newbie level :) And I like it. Not only did I learn loads of new stuff and was fascinated by the way Linux works, but I also am glad, that there are less predatory alternatives to Windows and MacOS.
So yes, while big tech like Google, OpenAI and Meta are increadibly disgusting, I feel fine by staying away from their services when possible.
What I really dislike is AI Bots picking apart each and every forum post, blog or publicly available images as training data (correct me if I'm wrong). To this I don't have a quick solution. What the user can do is to cautiously think about what they posy online. Playing the long game, we need better legislation in the tech sector, such as: Consent for data scalping is mandatory (let me dream, ok. Please)
if it involves AI, i can see that, since likely you are feeding openAI/CLAUDE,,,etc data to train thier mass surveillance
Have you looked into tech not corrupted by big corporations? I found meshcore recently, no internet required to connect people, you can easily do something to make your local network more robust and it's so niche that I can't imagine any money moving into it to monetise it somehow.
The only reason I remain in this business is I spent the last few years finding ways to do my job without ever touching a Windows or Mac PC. I self host everything but my e-mail, but that might be a fun project for my next time off.
Is everything still crashing down around me? Heck yes it is, but now I can watch from the sidelines, and laugh about the bullshit happening all around me, but not directly TO me.
You are in for a very rude awakening.
We all are, Mr- WorldsDumbestMan? Now I feel bad.
I feel this. I used to find computers and the promises of the internet exciting. Then things slowly turned into what they are now, and these days I often can only see everything computer as a layer of bullshit that has been put on top of the real world to keep us in a trance and not engage with reality anymore. But a lot of good things came from being connected as well. Maybe it's like growing up and finding out a beloved parent was after all slightly abusive. And then see them decline in old age and have their worse traits worsened even more.
Another image that comes to my mind frequently is that of the internet as the haunted shopping mall: It was once a shiny place, everyone went there, it was all the rage. Now most of the shops are boarded up, the few that are left seem rather dodgy, and the only visitors seem to be a bunch of drug addicts hanging out at the bottom of the out-of-service escalators.
Currently I'm a bit lost trying to return to my analog hobbies. I draw, I paint, I play music, I scratch the donkeys. I often don't have the energy I wish I had to do things other than sit at a screen. Takes time to get used to it again I guess.
Can't help you with the last. I am just old enough to have been alive and experienced a time when most of society did not have digital devices and kinda watched digital come in and grow up. I get what you mean about the disenchantment but free/libre has never been better and it still has bright potential.
Absolutely, was in the same boat as you.
Got burnt out with the corporate job but now I've moved to another discipline, I have my mojo back for messing with PCs.
The last few years I've delved into all the things I've wanted to but never took the time. I'm all in on Linux from mid-last year - which in itself has reinvigorated my curiosity for everything.
I've recently started leaning html to create a basic web page with the intention of joining the indie web, then when I tire off those, I'm keen to contribute to oss projects (support because I can't code)
I went into welding.
Technology is not inheritly evil, even stuff like cryptocurrency, NFTs, social media, LLMs, all of that has really interesting technology behind it, but has been used by people for nefarious means.
You can most certainly engage with technology without facilitating things like fascism and surveillance still, though arguably it is harder. But conversely, things like fediverse are happening where by their nature they are much harder to be taken over by corporate interests or fascism. It's an always changing landscape, and you're likely going to need to be a bit of a nomad until things get better. But I think they will get better.
It's kind of like dynamite
Thanks to Dynamite, we have the Nobel Prize. We've been able to achieve amazing works of construction and mining, and have generated probably a hundred trillion dollars in wealth thanks to the power of Dynamite.
But, people have been killed by dynamite. Dynamite has been used as a weapon. It has been the foundation of grenades and bombs and other methods of war, and probably millions of people have died thanks to dynamite, if not tens of millions.
As long as you're using the technology for constructive good purposes, then it is what it is.
Guns can be used to save lives. They can also be used to take lives. They can be used to protect people. They can be used to harm people. It's all in the wielder.
What do you mean "computing"?
Just like, anything involving any type of computer?
I used to love tinkering with my pc and gaming, but moved away from both in the past few years. With gaming, it had been my primary hobby since I was very young, so I think I just got bored of it. As far as computing, not really sure why, but probably since I'm spending less time on my pc gaming, so I don't see a need to do too much with it nowadays. It's a fancy gaming rig that I mostly use to run a web browser, listen to music, and a little light gaming.
I got into plastic models a couple years ago, and that filled a void I didn't know existed until after I started. I've always liked working with my hands and grew up playing with building toys like Lego and K'nex, so this feels like a continuation of that. I also find it kind of amusing that a hobby that revolves around sitting at your desk alone has got me more social and out of the house than anything else has since I graduated college.
You should check out itch.io sometime. It's singlehandedly helped reignite my passion for PC gaming, and I suddenly have more games downloaded on my desktop since Windows Vista lol
Use computers for as much fun things that I can. So a lot of games, programming my own games, designing things. Stuff like that.
I have always looked at computing as a form of power and control.
On the other hand I like to play PC games. I enjoy exploring and learning how to play and how to win. I don't see anything negative or power hungry about it.
As a career IT professional I had all the joy of computers sucked out of me. I stopped enjoying creating firewalls out of old PCs or trying new Linux distros. I don't want to self host anything except files and a media server.
Hacking.
Fortunately for me, using computers is not a source of income but a hobby, so I say this with an extremely privileged and ignorant point of view: I learn coding by reading books and experimenting. I learn Linux by reading the Arch and Gentoo wiki and experimenting. I have (thus?) no problem keeping away from the menace that is the addictive, toxic, detrimental internet culture of today and vibe coding and unattended OS installations and what have you. Does it give me a false sense of superiority? Yes. Does it also genuinely make me feel free and unburdened? Yes.
Not very well
I'm really enthusiast about open source and free software.
Software corporations can go fuck themselves for all I care.
Stop using mainstream stuff play with Linux and raspberry pi (or other sbc) gear that the big companies haven't ruined yet
Yeah pretty sure that ship already sailed for Raspberry Pi. I still love em, but they've definitely burned a lot of bridges with the hobbyist community for the sake of sales to the business community.
Computing was never as great as it is now. Never before did we have so much free open source software at such a high level of quality to use and tinker with. Never before was it this easy to find help for the most obscure problems. Never before was playing on Linux a viable option.
But online and offline social networking really got enshittified a lot. 3rd spaces online like offline are fully commercialized. Online, everything is remembered and if it can be used against you, it will be used against you either by the government or some rando just because they can.
But you can use a VPN and as many pseudonyms as you need to properly separate your community-specific personas. And if you live in a city of religious fanatics, the internet also is a great to find like-minded people. There are communities for everything.
Finding not computer shit to do. Which sucks because I don't have a lot of room for hobbies. I hate it. Used to be if I wanted to do something with my PC I could do some research and figure it out. It more or less "just worked" these days I'm constantly running into snags and fighting to do even what should be fairly basic shit because everything has been enshittified so much. Even FOSS is not immune.
Just all the evil that's making you feel that way it can't do the cool stuff it used to is no longer liberatory takes lots of work to stay safe in high school I was a shit head black hat I have to be way trickier and know more than I ever was or did then as a grey hat now to just search and write my smut anonymously its tedious and bad
im not sure how i will / am dealing with it, but i know its not great
I moved from ML research to nonprofit software dev when I saw roughly where the AI stuff was headed around 15 years ago and didn't want any part of it and was getting burned out working in academia too. After working in software around a decade & the things you mentioned I stopped using a desktop computer or laptop outside of work. I still read tech news and articles and a few papers in a narrow topic range to stay informed, but I don't program for fun anymore, gaming moved to mobile or console. If I'm not working I'd rather not be at a desk. I still see the joy of it and encourage that in other people, but there is a lot working against you too crush that enjoyment of discovery and problem solving.
I see how long I can go without my phone.
What do you mean by "computing?" Does it just mean using a computer?
Fascism? I hate to break it to you, but nearly every form of government benefits from the surveillance capabilities of computers.
Fascism : a populist political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual, that is associated with a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, and that is characterized by severe economic and social regimentation and by forcible suppression of opposition.
It just seems weird you're focusing on the obscure governments of places like North Korea. If you are a young adult, you're at the age where mental health issues would first occur.
I can't tell if this is gaslighting, condescension, or both.
I think it's our pal Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. Stupidity more than adequately explains that one.
That's like saying you don't like shooting targets because there are wars in the world. Or your love of flying your drone has gone because drones are used in war. Keep things in perspective.
Personally, I think local AI will make computing far greater than it ever was. You can use it to recreate niche software like Stars!, you can play tabletop D&D without having to deal with human issues like scheduling or infighting, you can have original software created to do whatever you need, you can have manga from the 80's fully colorized.
There are many possibilities, and it is one of the few things for me to look forward to as I get older. As someone without friends nor enough wealth to explore the world, a home AI server will be the closest that I can get to having genuine autonomy and happiness in my life.
Who’s going to train those models and with whose data?
I am opposed to IP copyright, so just about any published work would be fine by me. Ditto for public discourse, be it open chat rooms, Reddit, Lemmy, Youtube comments, or Twitch. Private things, such as personal medical records, diaries, and so forth shouldn't be trained on.
As to who: ideally, government with public consent and money. For example, Switzerland's Apertus, as an open model that can be free to be used by the public.
Currently, most local users of AI rely on corporately open weights, like Qwen3.6. This isn't ideal, as companies will retract their offerings at whim, and aren't working for the public interest in the first place.
How does this even work? Why would any creative person willingly feed the very same tools that are being used by companies as an excuse to lay off thousands of workers? If anything, this kind of policy would push people to ask for increased copyright protections.
Also, in this scenario, we would be handing both private corporations and governments our labor.
I'm reading your replies here and your comment history, and it sounds like you are simply depressed and need to find a new outlet for your time.
ditch the marxist leninism and you'll have a whole new view on everything in the world
it's a cult and it's broken your brain
computers are still just computers and still do vast amounts of good
heard of linux?
You don't need to be a Marxist to see how AI-generated propaganda, surveillance economy, targeted advertising, social isolation, privatized censorship and global resource waste are bad things.
It has jack shit to do with Marx or Lenin. Sure, you can view it in the framework of Marx. Or you can view it, in an equally valid way, in the framework of Christian-inspired humanism, for example. Or in some libertarian invidiual-freedom-first framework. Still looks pretty shitty.
It took me a moment to figure out what you were on about. You actually think everyone on .ml is a Marxist Leninist? Do you think everyone on Blahaj is trans? Are you truly that much of a muppet?
Lemmy really has come a long way. I was starting to think it would never get this kind of low effort trolling.