Defediverse
EDIT: no, I don't sympathize with nazis (neither I sympathize with those who call everyone nazi when they're losing an argument ;)
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Comments290View original on lemmy.ml
EDIT: no, I don't sympathize with nazis (neither I sympathize with those who call everyone nazi when they're losing an argument ;)
Most defederation isn’t because people are disagreeing though. It’s because the people they’re defederating from are assholes.
OP is a three day old account. They know this, this meme is just them crying about it.
Instance know for trolling and being assholes is eventually defederated
Lol right? And if you even try to engage it’s constant sealioning, memeing, and dunking.
Sealioning? No, you just won't read my 10,000 word post that is copied from someone else's pHD.
Edit: No joke, after posting this I got this message from a Hexbear user:
Have you even read Gramsci? You really can't disagree with anything I say until you've read Gramsci. Sorry, I don't make the rules!
This is why my instance is defederated with them though. It's just bad faith nonsense all the way down.
I mean, it's not a huge problem to read Marx or Gramsci before arguing about Marx or Gramsci. You don't have to read all they wrote, of course. To form an opinion on Gadamer I don't have to read everything he wrote.
That’s different than what I said though, which is that you can’t disagree with me without reading Gramsci. And is also typically how these authors’ names are invoked in arguments which are not about the authors themselves.
While discussing Gramsci - then they'd be obviously correct that you should be familiar with the subject to disagree or agree or anyhing.
It's not even a good come back. It's like saying that they're right because they have the power of Shrek on their side
They are used to their echo chambers and high-fiving themselves. To be fair, I wouldn't want to mess with them if Shrek was on their side.
Shrek seems pretty anti-authoritarian, so he's automatically a lib and an enemy as far as they're concerned.
You mean hexbear, kbin, and lemmygrad?
I hope so.
What's wrong with kbin?
Yeah who defederated kbin?
You might wish to be aware that your instance's top-level domain was chosen because ML stands for "Marxism-Leninism", and that the main admin of lemmy.ml has a photo of Mao as his profile banner. So you're probably going to have a hard time convincing your instance's admins to defederate from Hexbear and Lemmygrad, all things considered.
Hexbear is known for trolling, regardless of their political stance, unless there is a material analysis that pig poop balls advances the cause somehow.
I'm just saying that if one wishes to be defederated from Hexbear, then one should migrate off of lemmy.ml first. The admins of that instance are not going to be open to defederating Hexbear.
thats totally fair. I'm not actually on lemmy.ml, and my instance sees no real reason to talk ibout hexbear. Their trolling isn't disruptive to our communities, and is fairly easily filtered
thats totally fair. I'm not actually on lemmy.ml, and my instance sees no real reason to talk ibout hexbear. Their trolling isn't disruptive to our communities, and is fairly easily filtered
Also, regarding "a material analysis that pig poop balls advances the cause somehow" — basically ever since I first started seeing this sort of stuff coming from Hexbear in the brief time when they federated with Blåhaj Lemmy, I thought of stuff like pig poop balls in kind of the same way as, like, the climate/vegan activists who throw soup cans at paintings or pour milk jugs in stores or trespass F1 races or break fuel pumps or so forth. A lot of people express a lot of anger and frustration and annoyance at these sorts of things and say "How can these activists be so stupid‽ Don't they know that this hurts support for their cause‽", but... ehhhh, being goddamn annoying as all Hell is honestly a more effective form of political action than a lot of people consciously believe it to be. The video essayist Ponderful once said about this,
Whether all of this applies in the case of Hexbear is something that people can argue about — it feels like kind of a silly comparison given that Lemmy is just an obscure social media platform, which doesn't exactly seem like the type of place where meaningful praxis can happen... But it's at least a thought that we can keep in mind. Hexbear has certainly succeeded in getting people on Lemmy talking and thinking about them and their beliefs, pushing the Overton window leftwards — especially if other, less annoying leftists look "good in comparison". I'm kind of reminded of my own path towards leftism, honestly: I'd certainly been annoyed by communist interlocutors plenty of times over the years, but I think that without that annoyance, I probably wouldn't agree with those selfsame interlocutors on so much today. That was just one of the many tactics that collectively led me down that path.
I don't think that this is necessarily Hexbear's intentional strategy in the same way as those aforementioned climate/vegan activists, but nevertheless, this is at least my spitball of a material analysis of why Pig Poop Balls actually does advance the cause. This is just a little advocacy for the devil, as it were.
I agree with a lot of this, but this is Lemmy. You can just be a communist here. I’m one. A lot of us are. They aren’t pushing the window left at all.
I'm not a communist but I think it's a welcome concept in discussing economic theory as I'm sure there are things that we can learn from.
I'm glad people like you exist who are not tankies. I wish that your group would be the actual face of your movement on Lemmy instead of those obnoxious Hexbear users.
Yyyyyyou have a point.
But at the same time, there are also a lot more people on Lemmy now who came from Reddit and aren't communists, right? So maybe it isn't pushing leftwards so much as it's trying to prevent a push rightwards. Does that sound more correct?
i could certainly see that argument having same weight, but the practical application of it isn't as a protest, but as a thought ending cliche. PPB is linked when the interlocuter has decided the thread is over, independent of whether they actually had much participation.
I agree, there is certainly a place for confrontational protest, hell, if your protest doesn't make people upset, then its not working. But as you say, this is lemmy. Its not a good context, in my estimation, for a soup pour, particularly when that soup pour is in defence some pretty controversial stuff. Many will say this is milquetoast waffling, which is probably fair, I guess, but I am here to relax and I don't find threat of disgust for mistepping someone's Bizmarkian statist realpolitik to be relaxing.
And, ultimately, I advocate more for a filtering than a complete removal, simply because the discussion is important. There are forums here where conversation is ecouraged, and there ar forums where circle jerk is encouraged, and if the former is done stridently but in good faith, I want it to continue. I personaly don't need the circle jerk, however.
i do appreciate your analasys, and it does make me view that stuff a little more charitably. I also appreciate your use of the interobang. This open source phone keyboard can't do that yet, and I feel its a loss.
.ml domains are named for the country code of Mali, and are used because they are free to register
Yeah, and the admins of lemmy.ml are straight up tankies
https://lemmy.ml/post/1167199
ml was most likely chosen because freenom was giving ml (mali) tld away for free.
That's why fmhy chose the .ml, but lemmygrad and lemmy paid for theirs, which is why they can still use it while fmhy.ml went tits up.
I also pay for a ml domain now, 11$ a year. Used a free one, set up my mail server and some other stuff, now I need that domain because of the mail adresses I and others from my family use. Lemmy.ml has lots of users, it's the main devs instance after all. I don't think that the marxist-leninist thingy is the reason for that.
Though I disagree with dessalines political views.
I hadn't heard of that, but you're probably right. It's still mighty coincidental that 3/4 of the admins have Cuban or Soviet historical figures as their profile pictures.
This does not get more true if you guys repeat it over and over again. This is just nonsense.
I haven't seen much offensive stuff from Kbin, but the other two are burning dumpsters.
Right. If I disagree with someone, I downvote. If people are being an asshole, it’s different.
Generally the assholes also think it’s because people just disagree.
Even radical left liberals are assholes.
You asked a question and answered it next sentence!
Torrentfreak is your best source.
Why? Torrentfreak is a news site and does not promote methods of piracy.
Yes, let's enter discussion with the literal Nazis so we can try to understand them. There might be nuance to their calls for mass genocide.
Fuck off OP.
It's funny how people always use play it like "oh, it's just differing opinions" when what they're actually defending is indefensible malarkey like nazis and tankies. They know if they made a meme saying we should "try to understand" nazis and tankies, they'd be downvoted to oblivion. And so they hide behind a shield of "differing opinions".
These cretins have a right to post nazi and tankie shit on their own instances -- them's the beauty of the fediverse. But I also have a right to not want hate speech, genocide denial, and Hitler/Stalin/Mao simps polluting my feed. It's not mere "differing opinions" when one person's opinion is "Holodomor didn't happen, and if it did, the Ukrainians deserved it" or "Holocaust didn't happen, and if it did, the Jews deserved it" or whatever apologia they wanna peddle.
There's an actual term for this: Motte and Bailey. One of many hallmarks of disingenuous shitbirds.
Preaching facts right here friend
I bloody hate fascist
Another horseshoe theory take... Last I checked the "tankies" saved everyone from the Nazis. Let's equate genocidal/colonial violence to defend capital, with the efforts to establish socialism. LOL
Tankies != communists
Tankies are the insufferable fascists who take on a red aesthetic. There are plenty of great leftists, commies, and progressives who don't deny the Uyghur genocide or Holodomor or simp for Russia and the CCP. I'm not a communist myself (nor am I a capitalist for that matter), but I've got nothing against non-tankie communists aside from economic disagreements. Tankies I do have issue with, as should anyone who gives a rat's ass about the working class and basic human rights.
Also, lol at that Stalin profile pic. Literally fetishizing a genocidal dictator who betrayed the working class and murdered millions of innocents.
Yes the angry internet trolls on Hexbear saved everyone from the Nazis, thank you Hexbear for winning WW2 for the world what would we ever do without them.
You realize that to someone that isn't a terminally online political extremist you sound like those dumb Americans that try and claim the moon landing as their own accomplishment right? Your pasty ass has nothing to do with the brave soldiers that fought the Nazis, and I doubt those badasses would think much of some kid screaming into a computer about why liberals are bad.
Oppressive nations tend to have powerful armies.
Nobody is defuting that the USSR fought off the Nazis and had the biggest hand in their destruction.
But just because they fought a great evil, doesnt mean they were " the good guys". It just means they fought a great evil.
Exactly! You can't just divide the world into "fought against the Nazis" and "didn't fight against the Nazis" and use that as your entire basis of morality. By that same logic, America is the Good Guys™ and has absolutely zero neo-Nazi problems because they destroyed Imperial Japan and fought against the Nazis, right?
It's completely possible to fight against the Nazis and still be evil yourself (cough cough Stalin), or the reverse where the Finns technically cooperated with the Nazis, but only because the USSR was literally doing a colonialism against Finland and the Nazis happened to be the only ones fighting the USSR at the time.
Morality and history are not black and white, despite these lemmygrad users' naked attempts to coerce them into being such.
"Better than Hitler" is really, REALLY not a great flex
Careful where you speak such truths friend, the Pronoun Patrol would've thrown you to the gulags if it was in their instance.
Found the tankie
Oh look, tankie horseshit. How many millions died as a result of "efforts to establish socialism"? So why don't you shove that disingenuous bullshit up your ass.
Last I checked the "tankies" signed a non-aggression pact with the Nazis and only became a reluctant ally because they were betrayed.
If you follow your own link to a list of non-aggression pacts, Wikipedia lists 9 of them, most predating the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact. Other countries were signing these pacts with Nazi Germany. Not to mention the USSR attempted to create alliances with other European powers, but was rejected. The writing was on the wall that war was heading their way..
in Europe. U.S.-Soviet relations reached their nadir in August 1939, when the Soviets signed the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact with Nazi Germany after the British and French rejected Soviet offers to establish a military alliance against Germany.
I can't read the first link as it's behind a paywall. The second link talked about how Roosevelt tried to establish cordial relations with the Soviet Union but was hampered by their refusal to acknowledge debts owed by the Tsarist government, refusal to stop spreading propaganda within the US, and the killing of Leningrad Communist party boss Sergey Kirov which " launched the first of the “Great Purges” that led to the death or imprisonment of millions of Soviet citizens as the Stalinist regime liquidated any potential critics of the government. The wide scope and public nature of the purges horrified both American diplomatic personnel stationed in the Soviet Union, and the world at large."
Gee I wonder why the USSR had such a tough go at getting allies...
HiTlEr WaSn'T aLl BaD
Hitler wasn’t all bad. After all, he did kill Hitler.
Only a good Hitler with a gun can stop a bad Hitler doing genocide.
Well, the Red Army did that.
Just ignore the genocides perpetuated by the Soviets...
If you want to ignore that for some reason you can, but the point is it wasn't Hitler that stopped Hitler from commiting genocide. It was losing the war.
He didn't even want to kill all those people, he only wanted to exploit them and then deport everyone to Africa... but the Allies wouldn't let him conquer enough Africa for all of them, so what was he to do? Killing then wasn't even his idea, it was Reinhardt's! He just signed it...
(do I put an /s? it's historically correct...)
I've been successfully reporting troll-accounts and got them banned, I've blocked entire communities (mostly some niche-nsfw communities, so they don't turn up in my local feed on my lemmynsfw.com-account). And I've found most community-moderators reeeeeeaaaaally don't like fascists on their turf and if you see something and report something, most will get the boot.
This meme presents a false choice, defederation is not the only sane reason to choose (because understanding and/or engaging nazis is decidedly not sane).
Once an entire instance is gone though... defederate like there's no tomorrow.
Right.... So thinking that the Tzar's invasion of Ukraine is unjustified is Nazi shit. Thinking that the Holodomor was a genocide is Nazi shit. Cuz that's what ur tankie buddies called me. This is what OP was referencing to.
My dude, just today we had Neo-Nazis berating people outside Disney World about the supremacy of the white race and the need to eliminate all LGBTQ people. "Literal Nazi" isn't some coded terminology that takes a PhD in Cryptography to decipher. There are no hidden meanings here.
There is a block button. You don't have to scream for daddy Admin every time someone says something stupid. I, for one, want to call them out, not keep everyone from my instance from interacting with them.
Here's a philosophical topic called emergence. Every "one" thing said by an idiot is one thing, but when pretty much every other comment becomes some asshole saying ignorant things it suddenly is something entirely different.
I saw the very early Internet (mid-80s) and what happened when you gave people benefit of the doubt. There's been no demonstration that anyone has changed. So fuck those stupid assholes, the Internet is vast they can go carve out their own thing. That's the nice thing, they have every tool to make their own LOLverse. But they don't because they don't want to suck each other's dick, they want to be an ass to everyone else. Just as it was the case with
talk.*Same as it was, same as it ever will be. I for one am glad this time around people are being proactive. It shows that some have actually learned something.
Yes, let's give the Nazis a platform to spew their bullshit. It's entirely so we can laugh at them and completely could not possibly lead to them continuing to propagate their message of hate. /s
Fuck off. Fuck off as far as anyone has ever fucked off before, then dream the impossible dream and fuck off even further.
I don't even trust you to properly define what a nazi is. People are calling Hexbar users Nazis, they are calling Lemmygrad users Nazis, and they call the lemmy.ml admins Nazis as well. Just because you say they are nazis doesn't mean I agree with you.
What, is it only Nazism if it's from the Reichstag region of WWII Germany, and otherwise it's just Sparkling Fascism?
Maybe ask yourself why it is that when someone explicitly denounces Nazis you feel personally offended.
The Reichstag Region of WWII Germany, eh?
Like...from the Brandenburger Tor then?
I get what you are trying to say but to a German this is unnecessarily reductive gobbledygook.
SelfAwareWolves material right here.
Wait... What? So I'm a Nazi or something who didn't realize what they are because I told you that "the Reichstag region" is an ignorant thing to say when it comes to Nazis since the building itself is a sign of democracy and still seat of the German parliament? It burning was literally used by the Nazis to reduce democratic powers in Germany. You used the word because you happen to know it and it sounds all harsh and German to you.
Besides: De-Federating is a mistake. That'll lead to them reinforcing their bullshit unchallenged inside of their echo chambers and draw in everyone who comes by and stays long enough. That's exactly what strengthens the AFD in Germany or certain religious groups in the US. The only chance you have against them is engaging them and hack off little chips of their construct of lies and hatred until it hopefully collapses.
De-federating so you don't see them and then pretending that solves anything is like throwing a blanket on a unexploded bomb that has slammed into your bedroom: You can pretend it's not there all your want, until one day where the cover is being lifted rather radically.
On the contrary, deplatforming works very well. In the wake of Reddit banning FatPeopleHate and CoonTown the Georgia Institute of Technology did a study on walling off and removing "safe spaces" for bigots:
Banning an entire bigoted instance from yours, i.e. defederating, will accomplish the goal of reducing and removing bigoted behavior from your instance.
Yes, it worked for the platform. It didn't make the bigots go away. They just withdrew. No one actually changed their mind by being banned. They will just move to ever smaller platforms until they land on a platform where they are the only crowd and there they will keep reinforcing each other, leading to more radicalization.
That's exactly what I said: defederating will make the problem invisible to you, but the hateful bigots will still exist.
I'm tired of people thinking that racists and bigots and morons deserve a warm shoulder to vent to. It isn't anyone's responsibility to make someone be something they aren't, and it's really suspicious anytime someone tells you that you should be nice, or hear out, or let join people that hold disgusting views.
They will become more radical, but they will be prevented from radicalizing others. When normal people encounter the now hyper-radicalized members of the deplatformed groups, they will tend to write them off as the crazed radicals that they are.
Convince those who you can. Exile those who are too far gone. Doing the opposite in either instance is harmful.
Why is it every instance admin's responsibility to fix bigots? What is it about running a Lemmy instance that obligates people to actively work to find the one glimmer of redeeming quality in these human septic tanks? Why should the targets of their hatred have to do all the work to avoid being victimized?
Well it isn't, nothing does, and they shouldn't. Bigots are the ones in the wrong here, and kicking them out works plenty well. Bigots spread by being given platforms. Take away even one of those and it lessens the spread.
"We shouldn't have echo chambers" is just propaganda from bigots who were upset that their soapboxes got taken away. Stop falling for it.
Exploding-heads no longer exists because they got defederated by everyone
You forgot the “except for Nazis” part. No one wants more nazis except nazis and they can fuck off.
You are advocating for nazis. Fuck off.
Fuck that. Defederate all Nazis.
More like de-head-erate all nazis lmao
Lmao "try and understand them" fuck off, OP. You're not fooling anyone. There's no point trying to understand assholes.
Assholes maybe. Nazis no. There is definitely a point where someone is beyond saving and you need to simply cut them off, and Nazis are far, far beyond that line.
This post assumes that a meaningful amount of defed instances are caused by simple lack of agreement. Often, it's an orthogonal matter - it boils down to instance A actually understanding something about the userbase of instance B and saying "I'm not dealing with this shit, it'll make the instance worse for its own users". For example: the typical user of B might be disingenuous, or preach immoral prescriptions, behave like a chimp, or be a bloody stupid piece of trash that should've stayed in Reddit to avoid smearing its stupidity everywhere here.
Are instance admins too eager to pull the trigger for defed? Perhaps, in some cases; specially because it handles groups of users instead of individuals. But those cases are better addressed through actual examples, not through a meme talking on generic grounds.
The cool part is, if your instance admin starts doing stuff you don't like, you can super easily just go to a different one, or even go about hosting your own that you control and decide who to federate with
Well, once they fix the whole "each instance copies the media from other instances automatically" thing. I'd love to self-host a vanity instance if I didn't have to either worry about CSAM or just nuke the entire pict-rs facility via script.
...actually I wonder if that's an option on kbin. Even if the Mastodon interoperability is a bit wonky right now I like the platform working with both services on ActivityPub (thus why I'm here).
Yup. As a side effect: admins that are too eager to pull the trigger might get their own users pissed, and they'll eventually leave. So a successful admin needs to make sure that the defed is the best for his userbase.
Thanks for a cool-headed comment!
No offense but this is kind of what happens in real life too. Nazi shows up to local bar. Barman or owner doesn't throw them out. Eventually they invite their friends. It winds up being known a Nazi bar. People who don't want to associate with Nazis no longer visit the bar. This is why intolerance of the intolerant is a thing.
The paradox of tolerance.
Tolerance must tolerate all but intolerance of tolerance
Tolerance is a social contract.
If you refuse to be bound by it, then you are a direct threat to the contract, and those who follow it, and should be treated as such.
Funny thing is, the Nazis would use those same guilty by association tactics to silence and crush dissent.
Yeah, but the difference is that the nazis wouldn't be right or even honest, unlike the ones who oppose bigotry and genocide. You can't tolerate intolerance to death.
Defederating brigaders and trolls is necessary to maintain a healthy community. If your instance is defederated from all major instances, perhaps you should look examine what sort of company you keep.
With that mentality we'll all become beehaw. The cesspool of don't look at me funny.
What a telling perspective.
'people posting stuff you consider harmful' is not a simple, black and white issue. Anyone who pretends that allowing all opinions has no consequences is full of shit, anyone who claims that tightly policing opinions has no consequences is full of shit.
Like almost everything in life, you will have to navigate a tenuous balance between these two things and you will never know if you got the balance right. You are just a sack of meat doomed to die.
You might be doomed to die, I'm going to upload my consciousness to a Boston Dynamics Murder Dog 9000.
Maybe, maybe not.
We are getting close to massive life extension/ clinical immortality.
People were saying that about cryogenics.
Humans have a vast body of knowledge about how things work. It's a shame its dwarfed by the vast body of knowledge we are completely ignorant of.
Much as scientists managed to be surprised that life had evolved to eat garbage in the pacific garbage patch, it seems some will manage to be surprised that when humans eliminate one source of mortality, another inevitably evolves to take advantage of the ever-growing supply of humans.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s): https://piped.video/cZYNADOHhVY?si=Zh_dgcBUU8Z6o1Mr
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I'm open-source, check me out at GitHub.
I want my experience to be free of that shit, as well as "look at this cute picture of Stalin being a silly boy, hehe"
I think we understand the other side just fine. They're a combination of malignant narcissists and complete idiots.
laptop?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunter_Biden_laptop_controversy
Ah I see, thanks.
Fuck off nazis.
Follow your leader and kill yourselves.
Well said. There is a lively song by the Dead Kennedys that explains with nuance and understanding this same sentiment.
Imagine thinking racism and child porn have arguments worth listening to. Just defed and forget they exist.
What a simple, stupid argument.
You can’t enter a discussion with somebody who’s just trying to bombard you into submission. OP is wildly ignorant or just somebody sad they’re being defederated on a different account.
Welcome to [email protected]
Yeah op's a fuckin moron to an extreme level
I'm so glad that the comments have (mostly) finally unified in agreement that defederating Nazis and other hideous people is the right move.
We tried every other form of debate on the topic. If people are engaging in a discourse in bad faith in hopes that they will benefit from the publicity, your best option is to ignore them.
Yup, exactly
I'm not up to date on the drama. Who got defeded?
I think it's mostly about Hexbear, Exploding heads and lemmygrad.
Exploding-heads.com went down. They moved to nostr afaik.
Good riddance.
Unless the nazi wears red, then let him spew his holocaust denial because "western propaganda imperialism butwhatabout they deserved it it never happened."
But seriously, fuck them tankies.
Yeah, let's try to understand child abuse images /s
Let’s find the middle ground with Nazi’s too!
I want to stab you in the back 8 times, you don't want to be stabbed at all.
Let's compromise and I stab you 4 times.
We can surely work a way to achieve peace for our time!
Yeah! They put on a red shirt, that means they're cool!
Excellent! It's exactly what the Dem leadership does 85% of the time (10% starting off just as awful as the GOP and 5% of the time actually holding firm on the only just course of action)!
I don't have the patience to discuss transphobes and I will never, ever, understand them. Just go fuck yourself and then kindly fuck off.
agreed, it's tiring arguing with people who'd rather demonize others than consider questioning whatever youtube rabbit hole they fell down
Only lemmy could make a post about disagreeing with someone's view point about child porn
I'm guessing its about tankies
So many tankies on here, flat out support for the invasion of Ukraine, claiming that the west is less free than China, shitting on democracy/voting... So much shit.
You forgot that every discussion about Ukraine/Russia is steered towards talking about US imperialism.
One guy just kept posting a link to the Wikipedia page on American imperialism over and over in his comments.
Talk about a one track mind.
Well clearly if you didn't read my random Wikipedia article the first time then clearly you will by the tenth, right?
It goes both ways though, anyone critical of US imperialism is quickly called a tankie. I'm happy Ukraine is getting help but it's annoying I constantly have to state that the moment I want to talk shit about the us military. Any kind of talk is becoming seriously toxic and the ones that are most vocal about hexbear users are usually just as bad.
Screaming tankie at the top of your lungs is just as cringe as screaming lib imo
Perhaps you haven't heard of the war and only noticed a lot of mentions of Ukraine recently. Actually, that's because there's a war there, that's why people keep bringing up Ukraine or showing their support for Ukraine, alternatively for Russia. The war is about USA imperialism, where the USA wants to do imperialism towards Russia and Russia is stopping them. So that's how those things are related. Ukraine is the battleground, and the USA is using Ukrainian humans as weapons. It's a very horrible situation.
Yeah I wonder why, maybe it's because they are directly responsible for the current war. Maybe the US should stop arming extreme right wing groups whenever they want to destabilize a region like they did in Afghanistan and Iraq and in Ukraine prior to the war. Nato is proudly posting images of soldiers with the black sun on their uniforms on twitter but I guess that's completely irrelevant.
"oh look what you made me do."
Ukraine is a sovereign country and Russia has no claim to it. Defending Ukraine is the right thing to do and that's not debatable. Saving innocent lives and preventing further genocide is a good thing. I don't see why these fucking idiots have to gargle Putin's balls so much. Yes, America bad. We know. That's a problem for later. Right now children are being murdered by Russia. That's far more important to stop right now.
Russia invaded Ukraine. Russia is responsible for the current war. Stop drinking the commie kool-aid.
You can whine about NATO and geopolitics all you want, at the end of the day Russia could simply have chosen not to invade Ukraine and NATO would not be dumping the entire alliance's 40 year stockpile into the conflict.
You libs are the absolute fucking worst. When did I say that the US is solely responsible? Ofcourse the majority of the blame lies with Russia and Putin, that doesn't excuse what the US has done to contribute to this war happening. And this isn't some new thing, they have been doing this for decades and constantly destabilizing other regions for their own profit. You should try for once to think a bit deeper about an issue than the absolute surface.
No, not majority. ALL of the responsibility of this war is Russian, and specifically Putin's.
It is pure propaganda to state or imply that anyone else is responsible for this war.
Since when is it liberal to be opposed to Russia? It's been a conservative Western policy since the Cold War.
You said "directly responsible," which means all or most of the blame in a given situation. No one uses American English to claim something is directly responsible but not also majority responsible.
Also, I never even actually said that you claimed the US was solely responsible. I just said Russia was solely responsible, because they chose to invade. If you're conceding you meant the US is solely responsible though and are walking back that inane argument, understood, but maybe just stop licking Putin's boot and go read a history book for fucks sake.
Tankies: omg desu putins cock is so kawaii uwu big mean imperial western devils make my puty cock all wilty uwuu~~
Just have a reasonable conversation with them.
That’s really not possible, and I have tried.
Lol
This was the response I was expecting. Idk, maybe I’ll just start out my sarcastic comments with “hey y’all, just so you know, the following comment is meant to be read sarcastically, lol, hope you enjoy”
Yeah I guessed, but wasn't sure.
Recognising sarcasm depends a lot on tone of voice in spoken conversations, thus a tradition in internet discussions has developed to put a
/sbehind the statement that is intended to be sarcasm. The slash is in imitation of closing HTML tags, i.e. it is to be read as "end of sarcasm". Putting it behind instead of before the sarcasm grants the added benefit of many people still falling for it at first.The only conversation I'm fine having is how much you want, then shove a fist up their ass.
If it's the defederation BS I'm thinking of it was regarding a specific model for whom they'd already age verified and the one instance admin was simply still not okay with it because they looked too young. Which like, that's their choice as an instance admin, but also that's a pretty kneejerk reaction to defederate and immediately announce the defederation
...... that was from over a month ago. Doubt it. Also I'm not sure that anyone has enough info to know if it was a bad call or not but it was not very recent considering how many defederations have been discussed since.
Funny how one instance is the one everyone wants to defederate from.
When everyone you meet is an asshole, you are probably the real asshole.
Funny how this works with social media as well.
Currently. Of course in the past it was exploding heads for being Nazis, Lemmygrad for being insufferable tankies, then Burggit for lolicon, now hexbear for being insufferable tankies.
Heck I think Lemmygrad is more tolerable than Hexbear, by a lot.
If the 'thing you dont agree' with is hate speech or shit promotting violence for example that's the only sane option you have lol
Yes. Tolerance should not extend to intolerance, and intolerance should never be a thing we tolerate.
If it were that simple, then it would be fine.
But the point is, people just start to label anything that whiffs of a different opinion as "intolerance".
Nazis/extremists don't respond to rational arguments against their ideology.
That's different than arguing with people on the internet. Daryl Davis shows these people their shared humanity face-to-face. All I've ever seen from letting fash "debate" people on the internet is them slowly spreading their ideology to vulnerable people who are viewing the same conversations. Saying stuff that sounds reasonable on the surface like, "not everyone you disagree with is a nazi" even though they want to kill minorities as if that motive vs not wanting that to happen/doing everything in your power to make sure it doesn't happen is a simple disagreement.
I did that for years. Many years. It burned me out and made me much more of a thin-skinned and intolerant person with those around me in real life.
I love places where they willingly come to redeem themselves (like r/IncelExit) but otherwise I just stray very, very far. It took a heavy toll on my mind.
It is a noble thing but one that shouldn't be required of most users.
Honestly I still discuss online but it's very rare. Mostly with teenagers since they are usually more open.
There is a problem of even where to confront with reason. Most of the time you hinder more than you help on mainstream social media, because more comments on a post will boost it on the algorithm and distribute the original poster's message further while they remain wilfully ignorant.
Hear hear
Well whenever regular people go in to their communities they get ridiculed and have their comments removed or even banned, so what's the difference?
I wish we lived in a functional democracy where you can go "high, when they go low". The only thing that has resulted in is eroding the democratic system by ceeding power that undemocratic individuals will keep for themselves.
Edit: To add, I believe that Michelle Obama was right when we said that, but the world has radically changed since then.
No way this isn't a bit
Yeah because normalising fascism in 2016 so that actual nazis came into the light and the mainstream sure helped make them less destructive and made them have less of an echochamber! Oh wait..
If you have the choice between an eco chamber where 10% of people are nazis and say nazi shit to other nazis and normalizing nazism to the point where mainstream gathering places are full of crazy nazi babble and having 15% nazis I would chose to contain the poison.
I was there OP, I was there 3000 years ago before the great renaming, long before the eternal September. Fuck those bitches, defederate and be done with them. Assholes are eternally assholes and giving them an inch is just inviting them to take a mile.
You can't tolerate nazis or tankies. Bad reasoning altogether. Look at the state the USA is in right now because we decided to tolerate fascists.
Exactly. The cancer may wear a swastika or a hammer-and-sickle. Either way, it's authoritarian cancer.
You can see what OP is trying to do here though, even with his edits. He's "both sides-ing" it up.
Indeed! I think a lot of people here are getting wise to that.
totalitarianism is more like it
One of those groups is white supremacists and the other wants to stop genociding the global south. That seems like a fine comparison to you?
Works for me. I don't negotiate with terrorists.
Damned right. Fuck nazis and tankies. Fuck the bigots and fuck the authoritarian Putin-lovers.
lol so that zelensky fellow is better are you inferring?
Yes
Don't you think both are in the wrong?
Nobody with even half a functioning brain cell thinks Zelenskyy is responsible for this war or is in the wrong. This is entirely Putin's little pipe dream to rebuild the Soviet Union by violently invading and trying to subjugate other countries.
Put yourself into his shoes for a moment. If you were the leader of a country you're proud of, swore to protect and lead, who is responsible for everyone within it, would you just sit there idly when a neighbouring country comes along and invades, murdering your citizens and trying to erase your country through genocide? Would you just roll over and try to appease them when they have no intention of negotiating? Zelenskyy made the choice to fight back, because it is the right thing to do.
Zelenskyy is fighting for his country's right to exist. He is fighting to stop his own people, including children, from being raped, murdered, sent to work camps, or forcibly integrated into Russia. He is fighting to stop his country's culture from being erased. If you think that's wrong, then something must be very, very wrong with you instead.
It's way more complicated than you are aware of.
Because you aren't open to conversation. You just want to quip that you have secret knowledge and everyone else is an idiot, and smugly feel superior as you read Russian propaganda.
notice how nobody asked me how, bc they dont care. theyve already been told what to think
No.
Here you go buddy. This is for you. Stop posting and go enjoy yourself with it.
https://files.catbox.moe/1eskrr.jpg
Defed is cheaper than consulting a lawyer.
I disagree with someone, better call a lawyer! Lmfao
Not ITT, OP commenting on their own post. 3 day old account posting just to stir up shit. Obvious plant is obvious
Defederation is becoming the Lemmy meme.
I think being on lemmy does not in any way oblige a user to listen to everyone all the time. A lot of people will just come here for a good time. And for the freedom of speech activists: freedom of speech also involves other peoples freedom not to want to listen.
Moreover, I think most people who want to defederate with certain instances don’t necessarily have a problem with different world views, but have a problem with the tone being set by a small percentage of the users of said instances. Unfortunately, only a small percentage is needed to create a general vibe.
I hope it will be possible for individual users to block entire instances very soon, this way this whole debate will become obsolete. Personally, I can’t wait for it (the debate to become obsolete, not blocking instances necessarily)
Also freedom of speech is between your government and you. Your government can't censor speech, private companies, individuals, organizations, ect, can censor your speech or censor themselves from hearing it. All rights are only between an individual and their government.
I really can't fathom why people cry about "freedom of speech" when something privately owned decides not to include what they consider fucking shit. Freedom of speech is the fact the government cannot stop you from saying what you want. NOTHING ELSE. People paying to run their own instances do not owe you anything
The blocking instances thing won't necessarily solve this problem.
You might be able to block posts from an instance but not comments or votes.
Blocking votes is not a concern, but it’s the comment toxicity that is (in my opinion) making this place lose something very special.
IDK, I think brigading / vote manipulation has more of an impact than most realise.
Whew !memes sure does have a lot of faciest apologia.
Trust me there's a lot worse instances for it out there
Lemmygrad and Hexbear come immediately to mind
Many instances have shit like hexbear federated, but have explicit rules on the side saying "no tankie shit". make it make sense.
Are we talking about exploding heads or hexbear this time?
Exploding heads I don’t even think exists on lemmy anymore. They moved to another platform.
Yep, they get bored when they don't have people to bully after the rest of the planet tells them to fuck off.
I think they're mainly quick to defederate because they don't want to burn out their mods.
Conflict and drama means lots of work for them so I can see it being an easy choice. Personally I'm happy my instance isn't too trigger happy with it
Thanks for thoughtful opinion, I'll bear that in mind
Yes. If they want to do that shit they can do it somewhere else. Hell, take it to Facebook.
Kindness doesn’t work with people who don’t respect your right to exist
Go back to whichever 14 year old infested, fake communist, edgelord hideout you crawled out of.
Dude this is a social media, not the senate...
3rd day on the instance that defeds less than every other I've been on before. Feeling good.
So what’s the problem then?
Is there a c like subredditdrama?
I can't keep up with who is defeding from who
From whom*
defederates
Unnatural
https://www.britannica.com/dictionary/eb/qa/-Who-and-Whom-and-When-to-Use-Them
![email protected]
![email protected]
Lemm.ee is the way
I don't know but it should be called WTFediverse if someone does make one.
Everyone in here but me seems to know which defeds this is about.
Someone doesn't like the movies you like? Red button
Someone has questionable opinions on economic policies? Green button
Someone starts talking about how (((they))) own the banks and run the world? Blue button
Wow I got red and blue mixed up before this edit FUCK me
Think you got the blue and red mixed up there.
I fucking did, kill me now please
I literally just left sh.itjust.works because they federated with hexbear.
I'd rather an instance defederate with a toxic instance than have to switch instances in order to avoid said toxic instance.
But apparently sh.itjust.works doesn't care about it's users wants despite the majority wanting to defederate.
They're already isolated in their own echo chambers. Have you ever actually tried arguing with these people? You might as well argue with a religious person about how their faith is bullshit. They don't listen they just scream and throw a tantrum while insulting you the whole time.
Well you have my respect but I don't have that kind of willpower. I'd rather just not deal with them at all.
I wouldnt mind the first kind if they didnt have a playbook to defute every single one of your points in a manipulative way. I really don't give a shit what you support as long as it doesn't directly involve hate or oppression, and as long as you don't try to shove it down others throats or try to insult people with opposing views every chance you get.
I imagine a lot of people over im hexbear are chill. I hope so at least. However, every encounter ive had with them, feels like the conservatives over on reddit. They try to 'own' you with loaded talking points, and bad faith arguements.
"Dunking on libs" was the entire point of federating with other instances. Their users, including an admin, made that explicitly clear when they started getting backlash.
People way into politics and pedophiles always causing trouble on the internet
What's cool about the fediverse is that we get to choose.
Do I want to be in an instance that federates with everyone, good and bad?
Pros:
Cons:
Or do I want to be in an instance that defederates on a whim?
Pros:
Cons:
Personally, debate I've had that was insightful was generally in good faith to begin with, and would be allowed on platforms like Beehaw, so I don't see much use for "anything goes" kinds of platforms. Additionally, I'm not always in the mood for debate. I can just switch between different instances depending on my mood. Given that everyone can choose their instance, I don't see much of a reason for trying to federate with everyone.
I haven't seen much in the way of actual debate, more 'soviets good west bad, da comrade!'
There's nothing to be gained from arguing with crazies and naive college students. Had my fill of those types on reddit. Now I point and laugh until I get too annoyed and I'll find a new instance
They were never here to debate anyway, their only goal is to "dunk on libs" and spread authoritarian propaganda. They're crazy.
Agreed. I haven't been on an instance that federates with them yet and I'd like to keep it that way.
I'm going to defederate with this post
I'd hit yellow, the ignore button.
Wise words, seriously.
If someone says, "you just can't handle that my views are different than your views", they are either a Nazi, or a tankie.
if they are a tankie just spam the word tankie
Cry more you whiny shit.
I've been living under a rock for the past month.
Isn't dbzer0 defederated from a bunch? That kinda sucks.
you are completely free to discuss with tankies all you want, even if instances defederate (for example, you could make an account on their instance)
I just block users or communities if they become problematic. I enjoy being exposed to different opinions but I'm not interested in childish BS or low effort, intentionally contrarian posts
losing
Honestly everyone wants to bitch about they're their and there meanwhile people keep saying loose like it doesn't break every single rule of vowel pronunciation
Nazi is a communist term for delegitimizing a legitimate sovereign nation. Cope with it. Churchill said so.
Stop right there criminal scum. Pay the court a defederation. Your posts are now forfeit.
452 (and counting) defederates
There are exactly zero people "calling everyone nazis", this is not a real problem
Lemmy.ml should be sent to purgatory.
Holy fuck, it seems like there are only 2 extreme opposite sides and both are full of shit, clowns and morons. Why can't we just have some middle ground?
Literally no different than every other echo chamber people cultivate in life.
So... my guess is that you're referring to the CSAM then?
What the fucking fuck point are you making exactly?
It's intriguing how everyone that views themselves as moderates/liberals forget (or are unacquainted with it) about the paradox of tolerance.
Tolerance implies everyone has a right to express their ideas and you want that. You want everything out in the open, so you can pick at it, dismantle it and render it pitiful, ridiculous and useless.
You want the intolerant crying out loud that you are intolerant as that means you are doing the right thing. The intolerant want silence, forced, while the tolerant want noise, anger, tension.
Remember that anything worthwhile needs to be fought for. Don't regret being vocal and harsh towards intolerance.
That is a pretty ironic comment because that is not what the paradox of tolerance is at all. The paradox of tolerance is that intolerance needs to be suppressed for tolerance to exist, since tolerance can't exist alongside intolerance.
The paradox is that tolerance needs to be intolerant towards intolerance in order for a tolerant society to exist, literally the exact opposite of what you wrote.
actually both definitions are right. hence the name, paradox.
paradox does not mean 'has two definitions'. It means the ONE definition contains a contraction, i.e. 'tolerance needs to be intolerant towards intolerance in order for a tolerant society to exist' contains a contradiction.
Really can't agree that qyron is right, doesn't seem to know what the paradox of tolerance is
And in order to do that you need intolerants to speak up, so that their rethoric can dismantled.
Not a hard concept to grasp.
Absolutely incorrect
Tolerance can perfectly exist without intolerance.
It's called peace.
Intolerance is the antithesis to peace. Intolerance directly causes the opposite of peace.
Peace is not a static state. Our society is not static, hence opinions and schools of thought change and flow.
It's not hard to find countries at peace where intolerance speach has been on the rise, often replacing tolerant and peace leaning and peace loving regimes.
It was a passive tolerance that allowed for such intolerant currents to rise, currents that are now doing their best to drown the previous.
I'm remembering the need to repel intolerance by pulling its ideas out in the open, pull it apart and dismantle it, in a context of peace. I am not advocating for violence. What I am advocating for is the need to use the necessary force to snuff out intolerance.
Defederate literally everyone. Defederate servers because you don't like the color of the admin's hair. My lemmy app supports multiple accounts, defederation has the tiniest possible impact on my user experience and is good for you as an instance owner. Defederate. Defederate. God Almighty, defederate. That's wtf the option is there for.
Defederate everyone, then we can get rid of some code in Lemmy's codebase, no need for all this instance federation garbage.
Wtf?
Just ignore them
Silence equates to acceptance. We must not tolerate the intolerant.
We have more important things to do in life, we don't waste time on internet :D
Blue nazi
Lmao looks like you struck a nerve with the redditors OP
Nice alt, op. Peddle crazy at reddit, they seem to encourage it there.