Women gamers boycott global esports tournament over trans ban
Several teams of female gamers have dropped out of the Dead by Daylight Women's World Cup after trans women were banned.
https://www.advocate.com/news/dead-by-daylight-womens-world-cup-trans-ban#rebelltitem3Open linkView original on lemmy.blahaj.zone513
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It's notoriously technically difficult to just do nothing and allow trans women to play video games. Basically can't be done, except in every previous year.
What a stinking heap of bullshit.
What the hell does gender have to do with gaming?!? There is no inherently gender-based advantage on either end! So stupid…
I can see having a women’s league being valuable to foster a safe space outside of the misogynistic dude bro culture that’s so prevalent in gaming, but that’s a space trans women need access too just as much if not more than cis women.
Exactly. I know chess has women-only events and open events. There is no men's event. There just wouldn't be any women if a space weren't dedicated to women. The culture is so male dominated that it's needed with no respect to advantage. I imagine e-sports is the same way.
The goal is to eliminate trans people by isolating them and excluding them from society.
Being male is a huge advantage when gaming - I don't know how I'd even game without both hands on the keyboard and controlling the mouse with my dick.
It's similar to women's only chess championships. Think of it sort of like an affirmative action type of thing, where the misogyny that's prevalent in a particular pursuit causes women to be disproportionately underrepresented.
That makes this decision even more galling to me.
Yeah, this is infuriating.
I did Karate for a decade, went to a number of tournaments, and I'm a giant gamer dork.
Yes, in combat sports, there are legitimate arguments one can make that defining some kind of category delineation based on bone/muscle density from your biology makes roughly as much sense as weight classes... though I can say that only time I have ever been actually, fully KO'd was from a woman, roughly the same age/weight as myself, landing a roundhouse kick directly on my temple (side of my head).
But... keyboard combat? No. Makes no fucking sense at all.
Well you see, trans women something something g shoulder orientation something something angle of neck relative to the monitor so obviously there's just too much of an advantage.
They're an average of 1.6 seconds faster at their 4pools than cis women.
Coding socks constitute an inherently unfair advantage, skirts allow too great a level of thermal regulation, rofl.
Basically its because our gender is shit and ruins everything.
Probably a similar reason to why there are tournaments and ranking systems exclusive to women in chess. From my understanding, there are far fewer women in chess than men, more hurdles for women in chess and less opportunity for them to thrive and reach their full potential. Many may have started later and were generally less encouraged to pursue chess, likely resulting in less time spent playing chess from a younger age. Therefore there are events exclusive to women in an effort to create a more balanced competitive environment that isn't dominated by men who were placed in front of a chess board and cheered on since they were in diapers.
In theory there aren’t, but at the top of basically all esports and even games like chess, there are no women. Why is that? Are men more competitive?
Typically I think men are more competitive and just more likely to pursue things to the degree and extent it takes to become world class in chess for example. It's not an issue of inherent ability as much as the potential pool of people being smaller
Gender segregation shouldn't be done in anything as far as I know. Just pit skill against skill.
Gender segregation is usually done to encourage less dominant groups in sports. Like chess, for instance (good comparison to video games).
Women have higher avg IQ than men. Sex based physiological differences have zero impact. Women are in theory just as good as men at chess.
In practice, women do not perform well at chess compared to men in high level competitive play. Why? Fewer women play chess because of sociological/cultural reasons, therefore by the law of large numbers we don't yet have a Magnussy Carlsen.
The solution? Create womens leagues where they can compete against other women in the game and see more success. If womens chess leagues continue to gain traction, inspire more women to play chess, increase the size of the talent pool, then eventually womens leagues won't be necessary - the talent pools between genders will homogenize.
Another example is football (soccer), but between countries. American atheletes have dominated a great many sports at various times - basketball, american football, track and field, swimming, tennis. Why has the USA never won the world cup? Relatively few Americans play football compared to other countries, so the talent pool is smaller and the USA doesn't have major global talents like other countries do. The answer? Build the domestic competitive infrastructure needed to produce talent. If the US does this, eventually it will not suck at football because the talent pool will be larger and it will have global talents.
Nitpicking but it's worth mentioning the US women's soccer team was insanely dominant for most of 2010 -> 2020, Rapinoe, Morgan and gang inspired tons of young girls to get into football, while the men's never achieved anything
That's a really good point - especially because soccer in the US is more popular among girls. Less so now, but traditionally more women played soccer in highschool/college than men - who were more drawn to basketball/baseball/football. I was just talking about mens soccer, but womens is a great example.
If you have to justify it based on sociological and cultural reasons, that's not a good example cause at that point one could use the same arguments to justify racial segregation.
That's a crazy comparison to make. Segregation excludes people while women's sports includes people. Many "men's" leagues are actually just open. The only reason women don't join is due to sociological and cultural reasons. As women integrate more into the culture, women's leagues are less and less needed since the women who want to compete will prefer the open league. It's an inclusive force.
Frankly, if you start by trying to include women and end up segregating based on race, I question whether you were ever working in good faith.
Tbf I don't think there should be mens leagues. Just an open league. So i don't entirely disagree. But regardless that is supposed to be the point of having separate leagues.
Sorry, in terms of solving the root cause of the problem this suggestion doesn't make sense to me.
The solution is to decrease people from making judgements based on in most cases* meaningless differences like gender or skin colour, e.g., to not think "You got beat up by a girl? How pathetic!" anymore. Basically prevent any prejudiced, juvenile, or toxic male thought patterns which scares people from ever trying something. I hate that running competition results are still segregated by gender. I don't give a rats ass what the gender or country of origin of the person was who beat me, I simply care about the thrill of competing and the festive yet athletic mindset that comes with it.
An analogy, I think it was a stupid decision to make emoji distinctions by skin colour. Why? It exactly undermines the entire purpose of having done so for inclusivity by putting even more emphasis on differences in skin colour. Yellow was perfect because nobody is yellow so it simultaneously represents everyone an no one, except for sick people who are jaundiced.
* Exceptions: pregnancy, sickle cell disease, et cetera.
Ehhhhhh... Sure some genders will have benefits in certain sports, but... so what?! Let the individuals with the skills be recognized.
At the level of world-class athletes, they're ALL genetic freaks of nature. Who the flying fuck cares what's between their legs?! They're already uniquely gifted. Just let the entire spectrum of humanity shine, for fuck's sake.
False, because "you're wrong but I won't tell you why" is not a valid argument and a useless contribution.
I'm sorry you feel that way. To avoid ambiguity, I'm criticizing your argument, not you as a person.
You're a bad person aren't you.
Probably because you're a weirdo that "criticized" them by stalking their account and mentioning irrelevant details in an attempt to insult someone that was trying to argue with you in good faith. The edit here is hilarious because you just make yourself look like more of a douchebag.
What do you mean "skill against skill"?
In my perfect world, sports wouldn't be gendered, but would have some sort of class system like boxing weight classes. The best boxers in the world will be the heavyweights but smaller people can still compete against somebody their size. Why did boxing figure this out before basketball got height classes? I'll never know.
Another way of interpreting your comment is dismissing differences and simply making people all compete against each other. This would obviously exclude all women from most sports so you'd have to be a pretty committed misogynist to think that was preferable to gendered sports.
Like your boxing example.
On lichess.org new accounts gets the average Elo rating from where they can work their way up or down. In sports one can simply go to a club and start off with the beginners or where they or a coach think they could manage and work their way up.
This wouldn't be misogynist but bullying because heavyweight men/women would beat up featherweight men/women too.
It would be bullying and misogyny.
You know, I knew this day would come. I knew we would reach the point where we would ban trans women from esports.
Because again it's never about any advantages trans women have.
Is there even a male / female division is esports?
No there isn't. They can't even use that excuse.
Seperate gendered esports makes zero fuckin sense what the actual fuck.
I also exists for chess for example and makes a lot of sense. If one gender is vastly underrepresented, giving them a separate competition helps them succeed at all.
In most sports the male competition is an actually open competition for all genders.
Adding onto this, it's also for helping foster community among marginalized groups who are all passionate about the same thing. It's hard to develop that community when you don't see other people from that group in the sport or hobby you're in.
Creating women only competitions is a way to connect people to help them foster that community and bring other women into the sport so that one day, it won't just be a male dominated sport.
You may be right, but that's not the situation here. The categories already exist, and the question is how to manage them.
In this case, it seems like the categories don't already exist. This whole thing is being run by some random kik streamer
Doesn't this ban imply the creators believe trans women are the ideal form of gamers since the only active reason to ban them was if they were physically superior at playing video games to both men and women? Otherwise why would it matter?
Why are gaming competitions segregated by gender anyway?
Yeah, it's like segregated chess championships. Are they even needed?
They are. Its not about physical support but about the structures giving men much more support than women. It makes a huge difference whether you can fully focus on learning the game or have to still work maybe even full time.
Yes, but for behavior not inequality.
IMO should be integrated and shitheads just kicked out.
Yes
What the fuck does gender or sex have to do with esports? This is just another insecure misogynist skill issue thing like every other competition setting where a man once lost to a woman. So fucking stupid.
chess has a separate women’s division… but they consistently rank lower than men and if it was mixed there would be no women playing at top level matches….
there’s also a separate Grand Master and Women’s Grand Master titles… women can become GM’s but they typically don’t….
i imagine the difference is cultural and comes down to how they’re raised….
It's that and also cultural biases getting into your head. If researchers give women and POCs a math test they do fine. If they give them the same math test but frame it like they want to see how their scores come out vs white men they do much worse. The pressure and judgement gets to you and makes you perform poorly even if no one is directly saying you suck.
i did end my conjecture with “cultural”….
i think it’s more along the lines of “girls play with dolls, boys play with chess and guns” cultural thing….
It's not a matter of ability, but instead comes down to a numbers game. There are significantly more men who play chess, so they will be overrepresented at high levels of play while women will be underrepresented.
You see it in many, many non-physical sports. Chess, e-sports, professional poker, etc.
It's anecdotal, but I myself used to participate in a niche board sport at a professional level. The skill gaps between men and women at the top level is enormous. The boards are electric, so there is little physical sex based advantage, if anything women's lower centers of gravity is a plus, but there are just significantly fewer women who race competitively. This is evidenced even further by the fact that each of the women at the top level have tremendous skill gaps between one another when compared to the men.
Ultimately, the more competitors you have in any given bracket, the higher the skill ceiling will be pushed.
Okay, what's the excuse for the tournament's actions?
Are they claiming a Y chromosome now unlocks special gaming abilities when activated with Mtn Dew and Doritos?
Don't forget that also.... There are cis women with y chromosomes. There are cis men without. There are intersex people.
So true. I wonder what their metric is, then? "Sorry you spent too many years on Xbox Live before starting E." Lmao.
They fucking suck.
i'v always found dr.pepper and flaming hot cheetos to be a better performance enhancer
Mountain dew and pizza for us pc gamers. Or redbull and vodka 😬
But the real trick is to eat/hydrate properly and actually exercise, like a real athlete, but then manage your stims properly for the actual competition so you aren't desens or already worn out or gas early
I think they're trying to promote women in sports, and some idiot decided that a male player might enter the comp looking for easy wins against a smaller pool of players.
Its a compete failure to read the room, but that's my guess as to how they ended up here.
my guess (regarding split divisions) is it’s just money, there are many more times hardcore male gamers than female… but people want to watch female gamers as much or more than men…
so if you had coed competitions, they’d end up being 95% male, and they’d make less money…
Not co-ed, trans-inclusive.
duly noted….
i was speculating on the reasoning behind their rules; having a split women’s and men’s divisions…. not the reasoning for being trans-exclusive.
Oh, I was talking about the trans exclusion. Sorry, I didn't mean to come across as nitpicky; I thought your comment was calling trans women men and I wanted to test the waters without being overly confrontational.
no worries… it’s a treacherous world out there and i could’ve been more clear
Sorry, but true gamers use black switches which can only be actuated by the finger-biceps of men
Boycott bigots!
"Having two X chromosomes makes you worse at video games," say Dead by Daylight Women's World Cup organizers
That is probably the worst community to do bigot shit like this too. Most DBD players I know are very based and inclusive
So, WTF does this even mean? I don’t watch e-sports, but are leagues sometimes separated by gender? If so, why? I always assumed there were mixed teams, since gender or sex in this realm is 100% irrelevant when it comes to skill.
Either way, it’s complete bullshit.
in the same way that engineering disciplines often provide priority to women because it’s hard af for them in the discipline not for any good reason but just because the industry is misogynistic af
being a women and a gamer is far more toxic than being a man and a gamer, and that drives away a lot of women who may have been the best, and men don’t have that same hindrance just by virtue of their gender
id argue too that anyone claiming to be trans probably has similar levels of toxicity, and therefor it shouldn’t be an issue: if the division is about encouraging diversity to combat toxicity, who cares if that toxicity comes from transphobia or misogyny
You’re not thinking like a bigot, that’s why you’re confused. In their minds, most trans women are actually just pervy men trying to gain unfair access to sexy gamer girls so that they can assault them. The organizers feel an obligation to protect women from a threat they imagined in their heads.
Women are generally underrepresented in esports, so it makes sense to have a women's division to foster interest and give them a community of their own in a male-dominated field. Of course, the arguments for barring trans women are even more specious than in contact sports
Haha was about to literally buy the game on Steam, bullet dodged.
Do the tournament organizers have anything to do with the game devs?
Devs shouldn't allow it to be official if they do this, send takedown notices.
Saying trans people can't play pro video games is like saying people from Latin America can't play sportsball(kicking edition)
the game has to approve it being in the tournament. they can withdraw consent
Okay. If a few trans “imposters” slip through and get into tournaments lying about their status…
So what?
Like, what’s the risk? Let’s say a guy slips into the girls league, and… plays the game? If they’re being a jerk about it, well, there’s your red flag to ban them.
I don’t see why this is such an existential issue.
WTF banning trans gamers because of what? Because beating on trans people takes focus from your own gender identity insecurity? Gtfo
Also, and I know this isn't the point. But the word "women" is a noun, the adjective is "female". I know that some misogynistic assholes use "female" as a noun, which from a linguistical POV is just as bad, and it's why some people don't like using "female" as an adjective. But... And it is as I'm writing this, that it dawns on me, that if people should be able to transform, then so should language... Dagnabbit! I just don't like it when people change the language, but I'll wear a rainbow pin, I'll and defend trans people... What does that make me?
Misogyny didn't change "male" and "female" into nouns, they've always functioned as nouns since their first usage in the 1300s, according to some quick research. Also, there's no such thing as linguistic morality, either you can communicate your thoughts with others or you can't.
TIL i learned DBD has an esports league
That is apparently gendered.
And run by bigoted men.
really doesn't make any sense, does it?
yeah I mean how do you do the rotation when it’s time to switch sides? It’s 4v1.
are there any alternative/indie sports competitions?
I won't be watching, so they aren't getting my ad money at least
based!!! what a stupid ban
Did the women drop out of the tournament because they were trans, or out of solidarity?
♡
I figured it out guys and girls and everything in between.
WHAT IF, we didn't make male or female or otherwise leagues at all?
The reason for having women's leagues in sport is because they suck by comparison in some sports and men suck by comparison in others.
How bout everyone is rated equally for performance alone in whatever... fucking luge, 100 meter dash, scrabble. Don't matter. BUT, you have registered advertising voted for your favorite athletes and money goes to them.
Let's see where the money goes.
And then we'll also find out whether all the righteous equality stuff stacks up to what Citizen actually want to see.
Fair and Democratic.
If shown bluered images if women or mens football people show no difference in excitement and enjoyment.
Your "fair" approach only works in a world where the starting lines are equal.
I also firmly believe that sports are worth funding irregardless of viewer numbers. It is a net positive for humanity if we compete in sports and celebrate our achievements.
I'm being rather sarcastic in my comment above. But one point to infer might be that the starting line will never be equal. It's not even equal amongst a group of only men or only women.
100% agree with you, sports are absolutely worth funding at all levels.
We live in a world where misogyny is systemic, just like racism. Girls are told by their parents and peers that they should stay away from certain professions, and then if they do try getting into those fields, like gaming, they are harassed and abused just for being female. For all the same reasons, they also don't get as many opportunities to make money. As such, their ability to play games, train for esports and travel becomes limited. Having a women's league removes some of the pressure and paves the way for mixed competitions.
Yeah I agree women's leagues are very important.