Entire Chain of Command Could Be Held Liable for Killing Boat Strike Survivors, Sources Say
SECRETARY OF DEFENSE Pete Hegseth is under increasing fire for a double-tap strike, first reported by The Intercept in early September, in which the U.S. military killed two survivors of the Trump administration’s initial boat strike in the Caribbean on September 2.
The Washington Post recently reported that Hegseth personally ordered the follow-up attack, giving a spoken order “to kill everybody.” Multiple military legal experts, lawmakers, and now confidential sources within the government who spoke with The Intercept say Hegseth’s actions could result in the entire chain of command being investigated for a war crime or outright murder.
“Those directly involved in the strike could be charged with murder under the UCMJ or federal law,” said Todd Huntley, a former Staff Judge Advocate who served as a legal adviser on Joint Special Operations task forces conducting drone strikes in Afghanistan and elsewhere, using shorthand for the Uniform Code of Military Justice. “This is about as clear of a case being patently illegal that subordinates would probably not be able to successfully use a following-orders defense.”
https://theintercept.com/2025/12/02/hegseth-boat-strikes-war-crime-venezuela/Open linkView original on sh.itjust.works
Fairly sure the pardons are already filled out and signed preemptively.
They don’t even waste time by having them individually singed. Just copy and paste!
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/justice-department-quietly-replaced-identical-trump-signatures-on-recent-pardons
Ooh ooh how bout an autopen!
with fascists, every accusation is an admission
Once again, A LITTLE LOUDER FOR THE DOLTS IN THE BACK OF THE ROOM.
When dealing with fascists and Republicans - they are the same but Republicans have less scruples and more money -
"EVERY ACCUSATION IS AN ADMISSION."
no, the autopen is treasonous
Fits Trump to a T then
it’s only treason when Demonocrats do it
They couldn’t get the auto pen to look stay dumb so they just had rubber stamps made.
You can buy them from your local maga roadside tent for $200
It’s fucking comical how many Americans seem to think that the collapse of their entire legal system is just a blip and there’s a “normal” to go back to.
It’s a bit like going to see a magician- if you catch a glimpse of how the trick is done, the spell is broken. There’s no going back. Everyone is now fully aware that accountability only exists because of shared suspension of disbelief that it might not. A new administration doesn’t fix this. Your constitution and legislation has been fully exposed as lacking enforcement measures. There isn’t any coming back from that, regardless of who’s in the big chair.
It's already been collapsed for years though. Normal people don't even get trials anymore. We get outrageously high bail amounts and plea-bargains (forced confessions, that's what they are) so we will spend 2 years in prison instead of 5 awaiting trial.
Want to prove your innocence even if it means spending years in pretrial jail? Guess what? They'll end up dismissing the charges a week before your trial starts because they don't think they'll get a conviction. You're not officially acquitted so the prosecutor's success rate stays high AND you still were imprisoned for years so it's a win-win for them.
As clear of a case
Not entirely. If a civil war starts. The obese MAGA’s really won’t last when medicines dry up to keep up with their poor health.
You know that Germany still exists, though, right? Something will happen...
No other countries are coming to save you from yourselves.
So to be clear, you're suggesting the reason for allied forces joining WW2 was to save Germany from itself?
I'm not disagreeing that Trump will pardon everyone involved, I'm not disagreeing that no other country cares if the US comes out the other end, I'm just saying, these regimes have a history of not sticking around long term. So I'm disagreeing with the statement that "nothing will happen". Shit is happening and will continue to happen until their reign of terror is brought to an end, just like WW2.
The thing is that Germany was a land empire; to expand they had to piss off and/or invade their powerful neighbors. America can do whatever the heck it wants and as long as they don't do something dumb like attack China they'll be left mostly to their own devices. Hell, I'd bet good money that the EU won't lift a finger if they annex Greenland. We're looking at more of a Franco or Sukharto situation.
It’s not “their” reign of terror. They are a symptom.
This shit is the fault of all Americans. Those who voted for it, those who enable it, and those who are sitting on their asses either thinking this ends with a new administration or who are waiting for someone else to come put Nazis in the ground for them.
Blaming this on the Trump admin is like blaming a toddler for bringing a loaded handgun to school.
The adults in the room number in the hundreds of millions and you’re doing fuck all.
Your analogy can't have it both ways. Either the allies saved Germany from itself, implying there was a good portion saved from the fascist portion, OR the Nazi party was the fault of all Germans, those who voted for it, those who enable it, etc., and blaming any portion on Nazis/Hitler is like blaming a toddler. So which is it?
I'm 86% convinced you're a divisiveness bot at this point. Prove me wrong.
Germany was saved from itself as an undeserved RESULT of the allies’ victory. The allies didn’t go in to improve the lives of Nazi enabling German citizens, clearly.
Isn't Europe continuing friendly relations with the US also enabling? Can't you vote in better governments who will draw a line in the sand against America? Still doing military exercises with us? Really? After Denmark was threatened with an invasion of Greenland? Why would Denmark let JD Vance go to Greenland and film a propaganda video while that was happening! Why?! Why let him do that? It's against Europe's interest to be in bed with us now. It certainly was considered enabling when they were doing it with Nazi Germany. Besides the way Europe is voting they're headed down the same path. In 10 years we could have a left-wing America and a fascist Europe.
But I mean unlike Nazi Germany, the US is untouchable militarily speaking so it's a moot point.
Even before the USA was kaput, double tapping became typical US strategy under the Obama administration, which makes me even more confident that nobody will face any consequences for this. To try Trump they'd have to try Obama.
Ok, and?
I really don't understand why people (GOPers mainly, it seems) trot this line out every time there's the "threat" of a Repub being (gasp) held accountable for something...
We don't fucking CARE! GOOD! Prosecute the criminals! It doesn't matter what side they're on politically!
Some of us don't hang our hat on individual cults of personality and just want the rules applied equally all the way across. Why is this so difficult to understand?
You don't care, but the people in power do. That's the point I was making.
For some people, their entire world view revolves around "there must be in-groups to protect and out-groups to bind". That's it. Everything else is a polite fiction on top of that.
These people are, generally, bad people. Like, a child reading about them in a book would point out that they're not good.
Many conservatives adhere to this world view.
And……. Nothing will happen. As both commentators said and are, depressingly, probably correct.
That's not how the US establishment rolls. Both sides will protect their man and that will be it.
Yes, bOtH SiDeS BaD!!1
Yes, both sides are in fact bad but that's not really the point I'm making here. Please work on your reading comprehension.
"reading comprehension" is the standard excuse for those whose MOs have accurately been assessed.
Ah, yes, everyone knows reading comprehension is actually Russian propaganda.
If not bad, why let war crimes go unpunished?
Yankistani dumbass.
Thanks for letting us know this extremely valuable feedback. Democrat bad. I am now converted.
I've seen this sentiment a lot lately. It's just a very bad argument.
We aren't going to type out a list of every US war criminal ever. We are talking about current events and want the active war criminals stopped.
Obviously we should try all war criminals, but let's stop the war crimes first
That's not my point. If Democrats seriously attack Trump on this, he'll hit back by attacking them for supporting Obama, and establishment Democrats won't throw their man under the bus. Ergo, nothing will happen. Screw Obama, but that's not the argument I'm making here.
Edit: Aaand there it is.
This is actually the example they use of an illegal order in the DOD manual.
Page 1117 18.3.2.1 https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/23892053-dod-law-of-war-manual-june-2015-updated-july-2023/
Incredible
This should be top of the thread everywhere this story is mentioned, forever.
Holy moly, all that's left to do is to add a picture of Hegseth and of the exploded boat to illustrate this paragraph. SMH.
Today I learned the word tragicomical
Nooo, but trump and all his totally cool and not criminal bros said that the president cannot give an illegal order…
No no, he limits himself to "Clearly illegal" orders, normal illegal is beneath him.
Held liable by whom? The President who absolutely would say he agreed with it? The legislature that will talk a good game but fold before doing anything important? The courts who are owned by the parties? Or the police who want this to be SOP, and wouldn't enforce any orders for arrest?
I guess some of these people expect to still be around in a couple years when there is a new administration that might feel like it's a good idea to prosecute people for crimes they committed for trump.
IF they don't decide that any resemblance of election integrity is a nuisance they can get rid of with impunity. It's looking less and less likely.
Aint a chance in hell anyone will face charges if the succeeding president is Kamala or Hug-a-Nazi Newsom. It would have to be progressive Democrat in office.
I mean in months after Jan 6 Trump's head was on the chopping block, public support was gone and yet there was zero interest in Biden or his justice dept to go after him and the democrats didn't even press him on it.
I am hopeful that we might get a progressive. That's why the DNC didn't want a real primary, it's what the people want.
UCMJ is its own system enforced by the military with its own courts. Hegeseth will probably avoid any repercussions, but holding the chain of command responsible for state sponsored murder will send a clear message about obeying illegal orders.
And not doing so sends a different, no less clear, message...
Nobody thinks it could happen while the US congress is dominated by Republicans, Trump is the president, and the Supreme Court is 6-3 GOP.
But, if the Democrats win big enough in the 2026 midterm elections to overcome all the dirty tricks that the Nazis are going to use to try to stay in power, then maybe in 2027 there's a chance they could start holding Trump to account. But, Trump would still have executive authority and unless he were impeached and this time they actually had the votes to remove him from office, they still couldn't get his Justice Department to investigate his War Department. Even if they did impeach him and remove him from office, he's just be replaced by Vance who is part of this whole signal chat.
So, at a minimum it would probably be 2029 before anything could happen, and would require that the Democrats got a congressional majority in 2026, and held or improved it in 2028 while also taking the presidency. And even then, the Supreme Court would still be 9-3 GOP unless some of the GOP members quit or died. So, it would probably require something radical like expanding the court to get any attempted convictions of higher-up GOP members past that court.
And, that's even assuming that the democrats grew a backbone. If they did, they couldn't do anything to Trump because the Supreme Court already decided the president is immune from anything up to, and including ordering Delta Force to kill the Democratic presidential hopeful. They could maybe go after Hegseth and down, but realistically would they? How many times have the Democrats had a chance to nail Trump, and instead decided that in the interest of national unity to let his crimes slide.
Then there's the International Criminal Court. They might risk indicting Hegseth or even Trump for war crimes. However, the US passed the Hague Invasion Act, effectively saying that if any American were ever put on trial for war crimes, the US would invade The Hague. That might deter them from even trying. Under Trump, they've already made life hell for a prosecutor who was going after someone who was merely a US ally. If a Democratic president were in office and a Democratic congress were in charge, they probably wouldn't actually invade, but they still might just ignore any ICC ruling. The US has made it abundantly clear that they're the world's only superpower and that international law doesn't actually apply to the US. And if anybody disagrees, they're welcome to take on the US military.
No. Stop doing that.
There is no Department of War. The Dept. of Defense is named in law and would have to be renamed by Congress. Renaming it without Congress is unlawful and using any taxpayer money for it is likely illegal.
The murders weren't committed in the U.S. so...
Add a war with The Netherlands to the list then
It was self defense. They wanted to charge me with a war crime for commiting a war crime, can you believe it?
Do they even know who my daddy is?
Meanwhile daddy will be happy to throw his ass under the bus to save himself.
They could be, but they won't.
Won't matter if they're held liable by US law.
We need justice that is not beholden to any king or emperor (or would-be whatever). International courts should rule on this. Because local ones won't do anything.
Aliens?
Interplanetary courts.
Hi! Your local friendly Ferengi here, would you be interested in purchasing a ruling from my Mobile Interplanetary Court?
good. prison for all of them. genocidal nazis all of them. from the leader to the guy who pushed the button.
ILLEGAL ORDERS MUST BE IGNORED.
The laws will be changed to make them legal. Either that, or de facto standards will "move faster" than laws.
Who went out of their way to find the character for a backwards apostrophe that isn't on the keyboard?
backtick is on my keyboard and used in Markdown
Must not could
Just like the Jan 6 hearings, they will drag it out for political points, but have no intention to seek actual charges, institutional change, military reform or anything.
It will just be: "Look at all the evil shit they did! Don't you wish something could be done! Oh well. Also Maduro bad m'kay, drugs bad m'kay, Hamas bad m'kay, we love troops m'kay. Hearing adjourned!"
Could be, but won't. At least, not under this regime.
Head of the U.S. Military’s Southern Command Is Stepping Down, Officials Say. Adm. Alvin Holsey is leaving less than a year into his tenure, and as the Pentagon escalates attacks against boats in the Caribbean Sea.
Maybe its ethics. Maybe some folks in the chain of command have the fear of God in them. Maybe there's just better pay in the private sector and now is as good a time as any to cash out. But I suspect stories like this are going to be increasingly common in the run up to the '26 election.
Future President Pete Buttigieg will have a cabinet full of people who drew the line at double-tapping a Venezuelan fisherman. And they'll be spearheading our next Great Ethical War with... idk, Argentina or South Africa or something.
The people with ethics or morality resigning just mean they'll get replaced with buttplug toadies. Kind of like our current Supreme Court.
Sure. But the toadies are less competent and easier to undermine.
we can hope for some high-profile resignations and maybe an outspoken admiral or something. And remember, it's only Trump's DOJ until it isn't anymore, and I think the statute of limitations on murder is more than 3 years...
Not a Trumper but doesn't this fall under the same reasoning as all the indiscriminate drone bombing from the Bush and Obama administrations?
Spoiler: they won't.
Y'all mother fuckers ebeying in advance. These assholes will be held accountable. Call your representatives! Don't assume their power is so great because it's not!
Our representatives are literally owned by Israel and Israel loves this administration so I doubt we’ll get anything except a congressional hearing where they get a pool noodle beating for an hour or two. Why isn’t Trump in prison? That was a slam dunk case
You are absolutely right. And even if they only end up charging some random lieutenant at the bottom of the chain, it will send a message to the rest of the troops that they will not be protected from the consequences of their actions.
Don't "y'all" me, we ain't kin and you don't know me.
And what I do on Ebay is my own business, Bubba.
Except the Democrats have basically just announced they are going to do nothing because their efforts wouldn't go anywhere. So better off not trying.
He is a murderer... all of them are.
Could be, should be, won't be
Oh don't worry, those down the chain will be prosecuted. Just not Hegseth.
Although that's not totally inappropriate (although ideally he would be prosecuted too but for so many things not just this) because it's also their responsibility to disobey illegal orders.
Same thing Democrats said recently. Same thing Milley said last time Trump put soldiers on streets years ago. Back then Trump also said Milley should be hanged for saying it.
I love B5 and while the show might look a bit dated now the message sure as fuck is not.
That would require the administration's own people to bring those charges.
And I can already tell you the words you're going to hear if this makes it to court. "Unlawful Combatant", a designation we created so we could ignore the rules of war while fighting in Afghanistan and Iraq. Trump declared the Venezuelan drug cartels to be terrorists. Now they're treating them like we treated the Taliban in Afghanistan.
These guys are literally just waiting for the next outrageous thing to push this one out of the news cycle.
And yeah, we've been doing airstrikes like this for 20 years.
Could.
But won't.
… As they should.
… But they won’t.
Could is not news. Ever.
"held liable" means some bad press in 'radical left' media at this point, right?
I worked at Fort Lewis in the RCF (Regional Correctional Facility, aka prison) and we had an Army soldier who got 3 years for 1st degree murder because he mercy killed a combatant after they got covered in white phosphorous. Literally everyone was like "how the fuck do you only get 3 years for first degree murder?" and then when they read his court documents were like "what the fuck, you got screwed and obviously everyone knew it..." They legally determined that at the moment they were no longer fighting back they became non-combatants and to kill a non-combatant instead of rendering aid is murder. Since the judge and jury agreed that it did violate the law, but hoped that if they were ever in that combatant's shoes, they would want someone to do to them what this soldier did, so yeah, guilty, but sentenced to the bare minimum allowed.
I know for 100% fact there is precedent already. But that is rules for thee, not for them, so I highly doubt we'll see anything happen. I'm sure they'll claim they need immunity because they were operating under special rules of engagement or some bullshit, and it will take years and lots of lawyers and in the end it'll drag on until its forgotten about and gets quietly dismissed somewhere.
Which means, as the law is being followed in the US right now, only the plebs at the bottom might be held responsible.
50/50 they pardon everyone or Trump uses this opportunity to forcefully retire more generals and get Hegseth out.
The war crimes don't get pardons and have no statute of limitations.
I meant they offer the other generals a sweetheart deal of early retirement in exchange for testimony against Hegseth. IIRC some of the people involved with the torture prison in Iraq got to retire for their testimony.
Hey man, what does IIRC mean?
If I Recall Correctly
Thanks.
Sure, sure, right after we convict Bush, Rice et al., for their war crimes in Iraq.
That's what should happen, but I won't be holding my breath.
What absolute moron would obey that order?
I could see how maybe you could believe there was justification for the initial strike but there can be no justification for killing people who are now defenceless. Although why not just board the vessel and take everyone into custody, why instantly resort to deadly force, did they have information that the people on the boat were heavily armed or otherwise able to threaten a US naval vessel?
I won’t claim to have researched it myself, but I’ve seen about a dozen different people quote the section of military law that talks about illegal orders that are so blatant you don’t need to check or think, they’re illegal, and the example they use is “firing upon the shipwrecked”.
As in, the order to fire upon the shipwrecked should be immediately known to every Navy personnel as blatantly illegal as a precondition of their service.
If you’re performing the example for an illegal order, you’re executing illegal orders.
Edit: and I’m realizing now I responded to the wrong person.
In my mind the rules are clear on that: to use deadly force there must be an imminent threat of death or serious bodily harm. Potential future harms can't even begin to be accounted for, so the standard has to be judged with those immediate circumstances in mind.
Even in that situation there are means to deter a threat or determine a person's intent prior to employing any sort of lethal force. There's nothing justifiable about this.
See that’s why they make everyone pull the trigger when they commit murder. Now they’re all complicit, and they have to work for trump and keep him in power. Because if someone with a spine that actually follows the law and constitution gets into office they will face court-martial.
But we all know that they’ll just get raked over the coals by some committee and told to retire, if that, should a dem take office.
Those asshats will manage to walk. The ICC should step in so they can only travel between the USA and fucking Russia.
And they should be, MAGA is a terrorist organization
Does being convicted of a war crime or murder make you ineligible to be Secretary of Defense?
Exactly the same amount as being a 34 time convicted felon makes you ineligible to be president
Ooh, I did not consider the possibility of a military court case on this. That could be a game-changer.
I doubt it. Kegsbreath will just fire everyone involved in the investigation
These idiots will never face consequences until the citizens get angry enough to start guillotine trials
Yeah, if any significant pushback ever happens, it's not going to be 14 years of court cases and bullshit appeals. It's going to be citizens' justice.
I'm not advocating it. I'm just saying that's how it could play out.
They have done a really great job proving Luigi right this year
I'm hearing conflicting reports of the timeline.
One version has Hegseth ordering the strike, and after the first hit, there were two guys alive in the water, and Hegseth said "Kill them all," and the second strike was fired.
Another version has Hegseth saying "Kill them all" up front, and the pilot, noticing the two survivors in the water, decided to fire the second shot on his own, in accordance with Hegseth's original order, but Hegseth did not give the specific order to fire a second shot.
In the first version, Hegseth is definitely on the hook for the order to fire the second shot, which was murder, plain and simple. In the second version, the pilot unilaterally made the decision to murder the survivors, giving Hegseth weak deniability. He did order them to "Kill them all," but he could say it was an excited but rhetorical statement at the outset of the operation, but that he didn't mean for the pilot to commit actual murder. He'll act all outraged, and throw the pilot under the bus.
If nothing else (and they are plenty else), MAGA is cowardly.
Hahaha! Oh, you were serious? That won't happen.
Including the commander in chief
Ok, do it.
I could bite my finger off too. Doesn't mean shit.
Prince Joffrey
If anyone is held accountable, it will be the person that ultimately pressed the buttons and/or their direct superior.
This is what happens when you think you're the king.
Pardons all around -orange turd
Maybe give them what they gave the boats.
Uhm, it's secretary of war
SSecretary of War get it right
Salute to victory xd
They are doing the Democrats job. Democrats want the military to refuse illegal orders and the GOP(Goofy Old Phuckers) are helping by punishing the military for obeying them.
Yes, that’s pretty much how war crimes work.
Lol, OK.
Still waiting for heads to roll for the CIA torture programme. The only person who went to prison was the whistleblower.
“Could”
More like "should but won't"
Oh boy! There going to pay for this now!
/s
As someone who lives in MN. Why the hate for MN? Genuinely asking, because I don't think we're THAT bad.
It's because y'all lie about how many lakes you have, you dishonest bastards. 15k != 10k
You'd think we would have learned after the great lake battles of 1878. Where we fought using snowballs and hot dish. Smh
Minnesota?
I guess I don't understand why the second strike is worse than the first one?
Because the vast majority of Western nations (including the US) consider it to be a war crime to deliberately make a military strike against survivors of an attack that pose no active threat.
Even that assumes that the original strike has military merit in the first place, which isn't really the case when they are blowing up unarmed boats that might or might not be carrying drugs.
The UCMJ uses “firing on shipwrecked persons” as a specific example of an illegal order.
Firing on an operating crewed ship is, in a very, very broad sense, potentially justifiable. Firing on a disabled ship whose crew is not firing back is not.
The loophole they will try to use is those are war crimes.
We are not at war.
They are going to try to frame this as killing criminals, not enemy combatants. It's transparently evil, but that's what they'll do to get away with it.
Or just say fuck it and issue pardons for all involved. If they even get charged in the first place.
I see. I guess me thought is...they wrecked their ship.
Exactly, and because the ship was wrecked the people in the water were no longer a threat.
It's not that it's worse in any way, a person killed is dead either way, it's that there's no possible defense and it clearly demonstrates the intentional and likely premeditated illegality, making it possible to actually make a substantive case against it. It's not realistic to apply a full legal process to every individual military misdeed or act of war, no matter how much many people might wish it were. We don't live in a perfect world. The list of actual war crimes is intended to include things which are clearly demonstrable with enough evidence that a conviction could be realistic.
It's the difference between running someone over once, which could be a simple accident and we can't and probably shouldn't prosecute every single pedestrian death as first degree murder, it might serve justice to try to do that in some ways, but it's not realistic and also has the potential to be unjust.
Compare that to someone then stopping, backing up and running the same person over again. It removes any possibility of doubt whether the action was an intentional targeted crime and makes it a lot more worthwhile to prosecute. Neither one makes the person any more dead than the other. But one is almost certainly a lot easier to prove to be murder.
*Should
Wtf kind of schizo bot posting is this?
Are you okay?
WE DIDN'T LIGHT THE FIRE, IT WAS ALWAYS BURNING SINCE THE WORLD'S BEEN TURNING