Going anywhere in public to socializing is expensive as hell, third places are dead, and the primary way people meet potential SOs is through apps whose purpose isn't to make anyone happy but to extract maximum value from them.

There are people who are off the deep end, yes, but the answer isn't to attack them like this. That's never going to snap anyone out of it, and there really are huge societal problems that are resulting in people withdrawing, which is obviously bad for their mental health.

I mean, the answer is that it is both. Like, not having close friends sucks. And not getting laid sucks. And both are valid and legitimate things to complain about.

Like, honestly, the "skill issue" take is super toxic. It's basically the same as telling a poor person that not being rich is a skill issue. The lack of understanding and compassion for peoples' legitimate problems will only radicalize them further.

I mean it also does mean the first thing tho no?

The problem is we live in a society pause for laugh track

Where men are told they have to get laid or their personhood is questionable and women are told they must never get laid or their personhood is questionable.

The result is that heterosexual men are frustrated, cisgender women everywhere are afraid of anything with a penis, and dating men as a transwomen is pretty fucking easy because men are tired and desperate.

Source: Am Transwoman

I'm tired of this bullshit attitude. It contributes to the very issues it diminishes. Men are allowed to have problems without being incels.

The Tumbler OP is 100% not a man, if they were they‘d know not getting laid as a man is very often not a personal skill issue. I know many young men who are conventionally attractive and emotionally mature who just kind of have lost interest in dating even though they generally want a relationship.

I totally understand that between job/school, social media biases, self-worth doubts and economic insecurities, the incentive to navigate through predatory dating apps and toxic left/right bubbles just to meet another insta reels addict is minimal.

Staying single however makes you neither bloom nor gloom, it‘s just okay. Which is something I‘ve learned not to complain about given the current state of the world. Maybe someday I‘ll reconsider…

Dumbass take.

A "skill issue" take, is just a republican "personal responsibility" take.

It's dumb as fuck. How about you examine the systems that produce outcomes? Have you learned literally nothing from the last 50 years of the social justice movement?

Sucks that men's issues are being treated as a joke or mischaracterized as something else and not important.

In so many words, this is just another "you're lonely because you're a bad person" misandrist jerk.

There something quite ableist about all of this.

As if everyone can pull themselves up by their bootstraps without the support of a community around them.

That isn't what people mean by it. Loneliness means loneliness.

Imagine what would happen if somebody said this about women. Are you lonely, ladies? Have you tried being enjoyable and relaxing? And you should smile more!

and then i learned what people meant by it (men arent getting laid)

Weird post, that literally just isn't a thing at all. This reads like a thinly veiled attempt to try to put down people they perceive as "not getting laid". This kind of "skill issue" attack rhetoric actually contributes to the male loneliness epidemic

Yeah, the OP can suck eggs on this one.

Well this is just... Wrong. The "loneliness epidemic" doesn't just have to do with getting laid. What an absurd take.

Having sex is just a part of it, because lo and behold sex is a healthy and normal part of the human biological process.

However, ask a man what it's like trying to make friends. Or if they made any new friends as of late... Or in the past 5 years. Yes, just friends, not sexual partners.

You'll find a lot of guys past the school phase and into the work/career phase haven't made any new friends. If you're a man with a career then congrats! You probably have money. But no real time to make new friends, get back in touch with old friends, or find someone to date. If you're a man with work, but not a career, you're probably broke most of the time. Too broke to go or do anything.

Even men in relationships, having families, can suffer from loneliness. Yeah, you got a wife, abd maybe a kid... but you still need friends!

An issue with this loneliness problem is that it's not taken seriously, and dismissing it as "Oh it's just a sex thing. Git gud." is exactly that. Not difficult to see how something like the so-called "manosphere" can swoop in; religions, cults, and similar find the lost, stuck, and disenfranchised easy prey.

Male loneliness is about camaraderie. If it was about getting laid, then prostitution would solve it. Busting a nut isn't gonna fix a psychological problem facing the adult male population in modern western society and this shitty tumblr post isn't gonna either. Its down right perpetuating it. Now, some truth is there; COMPANIONSHIP (not not getting laid) is a wonderful thing and does help, but the root of the problem is societal.

Wait, what? I thought it was about camaraderie as well. I mean, yeah, I wish I was getting laid but I’d honestly rather have a community of people around me who provide mutual support to each other.

I feel like this type of reply to the male loneliness epidemic (or y'know just the loneliness epidemic, since loneliness has been on the rise independent of gender) really does not give a shit about the people that experience loneliness by reducing them to the most horrible and loud of subset of them.

Sure, there are incels that will twist and turn every societal tragedy into why they are victims and deserve to keep hating women. But by listening to them and reducing the entire problem to hahaha, the women haters are getting what they deserve, you are just hurting everyone else.

I...simply don't know what to make of this. I'm a guy who finds himself thinking about the male loneliness epidemic a lot, and never in terms of finding a romantic/sexual partner. It's always about solid platonic bonds outside of that and kin, and factors that make those harder to find and maintain these days.

Is this just a shitpost and I'm too stupid to get the joke?

It's way more than a sex issue. Getting laid is easy, if you only care about getting your dick wet. Making and keeping friends, especially meaningful friendships, is getting harder and harder. Anyone who reduces it down to "lol who cares about incels not getting laid" is being bad faith dismissive about a massive problem.

Haha! Hey, look! Men expressing feelings in comments and getting attacked by alphas and women for doing so! Next post on askmen - "Why are men so closed in and do not share their feelings?"

Maybe some are making it about getting laid, but overwhelmingly most men struggling with it have completely different reasons for why it is happening, in many cases outside of their power.

I'm lonely because my male friends turned into incredible assholes during the pandemic, became predatory creeps and started sharing videos of Andrew Tate. So I dumped them.

I miss 'hanging out with the boys' nights eating wings with beer while estiver l watching sports, or having barbecues, or playing board games or video games.

I have a LOT of lady friends now, though. But it's not the same.

I think it is funny how you post this, then in the comments deny that this is the type of opinion someone like you, a proud leftist feminist have, and that it is actually most men who think like this.

depends on your circles. in feminist and leftist circles, it usually means the first but most men outside of those circles use it just to mean “im not getting the dates i am ENTITLED to 😡"

If that is the case, why did you make this post? What was the purpose of your post if this isn't how you think about lonely men? What did you want to achieve with it? I can tell you, that you're not going achieve anything positive.

I assume you'd like to be treated with respect and compassion yourself since you have that blåhaj attached to you. That respect and compassion is a two way street.

The fact that SOME men feel entitled to women doesn't mean that most men think or feel like that. The loneliness many men (and women for that matter) feel is very real and it is a far bigger and more complex issues than just "lawl, can't get laid".

I personally know what it is like to be mistreated by very bad men. It left deep scars on me that I have to carry for life. However, I promised myself that I would not become a man hater back when I was going through my trauma. I refused to let a couple of asshole determine how I would meet the world and the men in it. It would be unfair to those who had never done a thing to me and it would be unfair to myself because I was better than that.

You too are better than this and you either have to start treat all people with respect and compassion if you want the same in return or you need to own that it is in fact not "most men" who think like this, it is you who think like this. Stand by your convictions and own them or change course because you know that what you're putting out into the world right now is ugly and reductive.

No, it's actually the first but being shoved aside and ignored as the second.

I didn't ask to have BPD. I didn't ask for inability to regulate emotions. I can only be me. I definitely cannot pretend to be relaxed or fun. That's not just me. Relaxed side of me comes out slowly.

I am not asking for every woman to date me or even go out with me. All I am asking for is a bit of empathy. But if that's too much, well. I cannot change anyone's mind.

p.s., I wish I were not born. But, that is out of my hands too.

This is gonna sound crazy but I've had some incredibly lonely sex where I haven't felt connected, intimate or seen by my partner.

I think it’s good to discuss our feelings. Men have socially reinforced the exact opposite amongst themselves and had it imposed on them by others. We’ve all heard “boys don’t cry, man up” etc. I worked with a young man who thought he was mad all the time. We broke through that, he was having so many emotions he didn’t know how to label because he simply wasn’t encouraged in that direction. That, I think, is incredibly lonely.

Stack on top of that growing up behind a computer screen, surrounded by manfluencers giving questionable advice, having your formative years recorded and picked apart…not being able to make those early awkward social interactions because of covid for a lot of young men as well…yeah.

Of course I think it does get conflated with a lack of intercourse or whatever. Young women are feeling abused by their lack of rights and they view what would traditionally be awkward young love/courtship as a threat. Incel ideology used to be fridge, but there are a disturbing number of young men embracing these ideas. All while women’s reproductive options are limited, making intimacy more difficult for everyone.

So there’s this historical precedent of not opening up, but boys started to learn not to do that anymore. Just in time to get shut down. It’s not girls fault, it’s not boys fault, it sucks. But I don’t see it improving until intimacy feels safe for everyone again.

I love posts that explicitly state that my loneliness is entirely my fault, and not an unprecedented societal issue affecting more people than ever before

try less hard to get laid and try more hard to be an enjoyable and relaxing presence

Been doing that for 30 years. Is there another step?

I don't think it's just about sex. I'm not even sure incels think that. I think it's more about relationships and someone to share your life with. I know some people seem fine with just friends and casual sex, but I think a lot of people have a need, or strong "want," for a close, deep, intimate relationship. I know I do at least. Even if it was just about sex, sex is pretty much a human need.

Personally, I have severe life-long social anxiety (and depression), so it's always been very hard for me to make friends or meet potential partners. I have worked on my anxiety issue (medication, attempts at self help, though I could never afford therapy), and I am better than before (I used to sometimes get panic attacks just being around large groups of people), but it's still severe enough to hinder me in life in general (and noticeable to people around me).

Genuinely, who keeps posting shit like this on here? I keep seeing posts such as this one and it's honestly pushing me away from Lemmy. Why spend time on a platform that hates me? If being a man who didn't date (because of social anxiety, btw, not that you'd care, since clearly men are by default fascists, according to some comments here) is a sin, let us know on the front page, so that me and others like myself can avoid this place.

A lot of comments are, thankfully, calling this shitty behaviour out. But then I look at the post itself, which has 696 upvotes and 166 downvotes, and I'm like... I'm not wanted here.

Semi related but it's actually so irritating how I have to go through life where my value as a human being is decided by how much money I make, how many girls I get, how successful I am when I could not care less about any of that, but I will get judged severely for it if anyone "finds out" that I'm not successful in... things I don't care about...

Like why is that my value to people? I don't want to have kids with you, you don't have to live my life, if it's fun and rewarding being around me why is that not enough? It seeps in even to progressive speech where people will say "clearly he gets no women" like that decides their value as a person. Very cringe. Also don't forget to downvote for minimizing male loneliness as men can't get women for the 9999th time.

I am in a relationship, but also lonely. I would like someone to share relationship-problems with for when they occur every once in a while. But it's hard.

Don't believe all the crap you see on TikTok and talk to actual people about their problems. Please.

Unfortunately, in addition to being discouraged from camaraderie and bonding, many boys and young men are also discouraged from ever developing the emotional security needed to see, or outwardly acknowledge that they are lonely and suffering from their lack of connections to others beyond sex.

They are instead taught that any form of vulnerability (like acknowledging their unmet need for connection) is weakness they should be ashamed of because it's unbecoming of a man

We really do men and boys a huge disservice :(. Sometimes you hear the idea that we should "teach men not to rape, rather than teach women to protect themselves", but I've never heard anyone talk about how in practice what that would look like, is raising emotionally healthy and secure, interpersonally competent boys, who are equipped to handle difficult emotional situations and the hormones that will show up as teenagers.

no, make loneliness epidemic is exactly what's described in the first post. societal norms mostly hinder men from forming meaningful friendships with other men, and women as well. they're discouraged from expressing feelings (maybe other than aggressive ones) and being vulnerable. i don't know how you can form any relationships without doing either. and turns out you really can't. hence a lot of men feel lonely.

OK, but...no? That's not what people are talking about with the male loneliness epidemic. They're talking about how an inability to connect with their peers on a more than superficial level, coupled with a lack of older male role models, are causing Gen Z and Millennial men to report extremely high levels of loneliness.

It's tangentially related to, "getting laid," as many of these men are driven towards misogynistic monosphere influencers who make sexual conquest a measure of self-worth, but that's a symptom of the problem, not the totality of it. Also, some people debate the existence of the loneliness epidemic altogether, but no one defines it as, "men aren't getting laid."

Mandatory "If you're homeless just buy a house"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Jh0EN1De4Q

to all the men out there not getting laid: try less hard to get laid and try more hard to be an enjoyable and relaxing presence

As someone who spent a full seven years as a horny teenager, I'm afraid to report this is much more difficult than it sounds on paper.

But I'll spot you something that can help a lot

close camaraderie and bonding between men

Honestly, the most success I've had with women was when I was surrounded by male friends who left me feeling relaxed and confident.

Anecdotal, but I struggle with connecting with people in person. I try to do the 'be yourself' thing, the 'talk about what you like' malarkey, all that stuff. I have watched eyes glaze over and interest recede in real time simply because I answered, truthfully and wholly, the question of "what do you like to do?" To boil it down to two words that don't cover any specifics or explore any deeper aspects: experimental music. There are others, but that's the biggest hat I choose to wear.

So I've instead closed in on myself when I'm in public, especially at work. Don't speak unless spoken to, keep to myself, and just keep hands on the keyboard and eyes on the screen. And then I go home, to try to reach out to any of the local friends I do have - friends that love me and have told me, directly, often, that I'm a comforting and relaxing presence in their often chaotic and confusing lives - to try to gain a moment of in-person, face-to-face contact. Too busy, too far, they need space to take care of themselves. The last thing I, or anyone, wants is for me to be needy. I do not, and have never, faulted anyone for how they navigate their own slice of the shit pile called life they have to deal with.

But I'm living alone for the first time in my life through no choice of my own. Connecting to new people, whether it is just for friendship, or, even more unlikely, romantic endeavors, more often than not feels like talking to a brick. Not even a wall made of bricks - a singular, boring, uninspiring brick. They have no interest in what I am or am about, and I struggle to find any kind of connection to what they have to say.

So, I stay lonely. I know I'm the problem, but I don't want anyone else to help me deal with it.

I have a wife and I don't feel lonely.

But I noticed my third place "go to" places are very lonely and they were a place I use to be to socialise randomly.

Backthen: Going to the gym was an adventure, blast some weights and grab a cappucino with someone on the way out and talk about the routine, how they are progressing etc... PEOPLE TALKED.

Now? Everyone on the phones during sets, if they aren't doing that they run around with headphones and walk and use the phone,..

It's everywhere. I am not different now.

But trust me guys and ladies, it's not having no partner. It's the phones, it's the phones. If they'd shutdown the internet people won't be dating anymore and the human race would just end cause people can't communicate in person anymore.

is it ok if i don't judge my sense of manhood by the "getting laid" part ?

i'm not into judging womanhood by using male anything, and i don't see why the other way makes any more sense.

People who make getting laid or not their whole personality are people that I would want nothing to do with.

I'm with the second guy. I'm not going to doom scroll through useless dating apps and talking to every woman on the street. I'd rather do my own hobbies and do my own things so worst case scenario, I'm happy with what I'm doing, best case scenario I get a SO, or reasonable scenario is I make some friends.

Funny. I always thought it was a camaraderie thing because I'm married. That definitely makes a lot of sense though because young men are becoming more right-wing and most women do not like that so it seems like that would be a big hurdle and maybe they just need to figure their shit out.

Trying to be a relaxing presence is a bit of a paradox

There was an interesting podcast the other day about raising boys in the current era when it seems like many of them are turning to far right grifters and manfluencers

https://player.fm/series/offline-with-jon-favreau/raising-boys-in-the-era-of-incels-maga-and-the-manosphere

Male loneliness is real and multifactorial, but yeah its also self fulfilling. Rather than examine difficult societal reasons and address them, we fall back on tired masculine tropes and try to blame women for not being accomodating or whatever.

Im a lonely man at the dinner table with my wife and extended family.

I'm trying really hard to not reduce the issue to "women won't have sex with me" but the responses are flooded with this general sentiment.

I think some guys suffer from mental illness and don't have support from the people around them and things like male privilege can diminish their perceived suffering. Even so, I rarely see men actually talk about it.

Like, only on places like 4chan people are brave enough to spew whatever shit's on their mind and I'll tell you that while they can be the minority in a lot of regards, there is something sincere in their unfiltered, crude language that really helps me understand it a little. A lot of it does feel like whinning about sexlessness, but sometimes they make a point and actually talk about their suffering.

It seems like men are desperate for sex and, in pursuit, find grifters who peddle them conservatism. These are the type of people that come to my mind when we talk about it.

Ok, ok, ok. I know everyone likes anecdotes.

I don't fall in the lonely camp, but I'm definitely not getting laid.

Why am I not getting laid?

Well I used to think it was cause I was fat, but then I lost a ton of weight. Then I thought it was cause I wasn't fit so I put on muscle. Then I thought it was cause I was vampire pale so I got sunburned.

Reality is:

1. I annoy myself in my own head. I'm definitely going to annoy a potential sex partner.
2. I am literally scared of everything. Fear does not encourage one to partake in mating rituals.
3. I have priorities like a job and a son that are more important than a new woman in my life will be for a while.
4. Having a big dick doesn't give you big dick energy.

“A gentleman is someone who makes everyone around him feel as comfortable as possible” - Brendan Fraser in “Blast from the Past”

I feel like, as an average white ~40 year old guy in a major city, getting dates and sex wasn't that hard. But from what I've heard, the bar is extremely low. Like, all the woman I talk to (and the men who date men) have horror stories.

I think my worst dates were like... they mildly insulted me.

Neither of those come close to, like, various threats, violence, boundary breaking, and unsolicited dick picks that seem too common.

This is a pretty stupid take. Just stupid. Not much to add to this.

Much of my energy is spent trying to be an enjoyable presence and it god damn works as people seek my presence. Does this lead to sex? No, why would it?

Being an enjoyable presence in order to get sex makes absolutely no sense.

Don't try to be something you're not.

Meanwhile I find I get unwanted attention from women, at a work event they kept talking to me. For some reason pretending to be interested in my clearly boring story. Why won't she leave me alone? I just want to eat the free food and go home.

I even talked about Linux and that didn't drive her away.

I got the opposite problem. I'm tall and fairly well built, so I have plenty of luck on the apps. But since I moved states, I can't be fucked to find a friend. Literally just tried to arrange a "play date" and got cancelled on the moment I was about to knock on their door.

Maybe I'm just not likeable?

I've never felt more lonely in my life as when I was in a relationship.

and then i learned what people meant by it (men arent getting laid) to which i say skill issue

Is that what it actually refer to ? Then I too, misunderstood.

I had a long, protracted discussion with someone before leaving reddit in which he was certain toxic masculinity was feminists’ fault.

Women expect too much of men, will only accept buff and young guys, over 6’ tall, etc.

My ex of 30 years was like 5’10 and had a very agreeable dad bod. You know what actually matters – and what always mattered to all my girl fiends? The guys who cared enough to learn what we cared about, and who did all the little things. Never looks, never spending 5 hours in the gym. Spending 5 hours making a 2 year old happy is the sexiest thing there is.

But yeah, women make men toxic. 🙄

I don't want to come across as a mysogynist or a misanthrope but this "It's your fault that you're lonely because you're a trash human that nobody wants to sleep with" infuriates me, because I get that shit enough from my own head without it coming from outside as well.

I don't want to just sleep with someone, I want to be able to comfortably enjoy my time with people I like and then maybe meet someone likeminded enough to build a relationship with.

I have a few friends, and spend time with them whenever I can, but 99% of my time is spent working or at home recovering from work.

I know there's the whole "You have to get out there and socialise." and "Get a hobby and you'll meet new people." But how does a single man even approach people without coming across as weird or creepy?

For obvious reasons I should probably clarify that I'm aware my brain doesn't work like regular people's do, and am probably doing the same shit as the old "people online; 'Having throw pillows makes you part of the bourgeoisie' / People irl; 'Hey man how's it going?' " tweet, but god damn if it isn't hard to have the confidence to meet people irl when all you see is things like the 'bear in a forest' trope and news stories about violent abusers reinforcing negative self bias.

Who knows. Maybe I just need to throw my nightmare rectangle off a cliff and buy a phone that only does 4 things, text, call, tell the time and play snake.

Yeah....like THAT is ever gonna happen lol

If anybody here wants to make friends but not get laid, I invite you to my discord channel. We're planning to make the leap to a different platform soon, but no idea when.

How does it spread if they are isolated?

Can’t be enjoyable and relaxing sorry, got blue balls

Tips to get laid. Yeah, that seems right.

TIL: Male Loneliness Epidemic isn't Loneliness, is Laidlessness

Edit: MLE = Incel???

But if they stop trying to get laid: they also wont get laid because they'll... not go out and socialize. They'll probably stay home in their comfortable bubble, play video games, watch youtube or anime or whatever, eat junk food, and jork it. Fall back into a comfy ritual. Catch 22.

And then they'll look at social media, experience FOMO when it seems like everyone else is fucking or in a happy relationship, get stars in their eyes thinking maybe there is a chance to not be forever alone. Go out and try again and fall flat on their face socially again as they desperately and obviously try to get laid and reek of social ineptitude. And the self loathing is reinforced another notch towards suicidality/blackpilling.

Or they avoid flaring up that sense of loneliness and horniness by just shutting off from socializing (online or offline) entirely. Can't experience fomo if you try to forget other people exist. But then of course they'll get cabin fever and start hallucinating the hat man.

Crackpot theory of my own: I also think some of these men, considering how much they complain about how hard it is being men, are not particularly attached to being men at all. If it were convenient and safe and they could ensure they were hot/decent looking at the end of it they'd probably transition into being a girl to just not be lonely anymore. Basically, they're "conditional eggs" or at least agender. If it becomes medically trivial to become a hot girl that's what a lot of them would transition to. There was a thing within the incel crowd called "trans-maxxing". While obviously transitioning with current technology and social acceptance probably wont make their lives easier (despite the transmaxxing manifesto claiming it would) there might be a point in the future where it would. Medical technology is advancing at a pretty crazy rate.

I do wonder what the social gender-divide fabric in that case would look like. What if say, a significant portion of existing men gave up on being men (but where not dysphoric trans, just desperate incels willing to throw away their identity for any intimacy through advanced medical transition). Most transwomen end up being straight once they transition. Either because they were always attracted to men on some level or because there is a significant chance HRT induces a change in who they're attracted to. If the medical transition technology was advanced enough, it'd probably be possible to increase that probability by demand. This would shift the ratio of hetero women available vs hetero men available. Lower pressure to compete as men since you can just "join the other team" and there would intrinsically be more straight women available vs straight men.

Of course, this would likely upset traditionalists and conservatives. And it'd make TERFs feel vindicated "See! Men just want to possess women's bodies for sex!" or something.

Brain computer interface haptics + VR/AR or Robot Waifus are probably more likely arrive before trivial "hot girl" transition is possible though and probably more likely to attract more forever-alones & incels than transition. Still a fun thought experiment IMO.

Probably the least toxic response I've seen twoards male loneliness. :3

The internet gives everyone mental health issues, especially adolescents and especially women.

It does so largely because it distracts away our attention from our natural environment, and also because the internet is largely very toxic, if one considers social media platforms like Instagram and Xitter. Both of these effects lead to a surge in anxiety, depression and related diseases.

It is no wonder then, that these adolescents and young adults don't want to engage in relationships anymore. That leads to a loss of self-esteem (because being attractive to others is a large source of self-esteem), which troubles the mental health condition even more.

The best way forward would be if large parts of the society ditch social media altogether. Xitter is becoming a propaganda instrument more and more, day by day, and there's simply no use exposing a large part of the society, which has no critical thinking skills, to the non-stop mind-manipulating brainwashing machine that large parts of the internet nowadays are.

Be an actual person. Have empathy. Have sympathy. Stop listening to Rogan, Peterson, stop doing Wim Hof baths, stop taking T when you don't need it - focus on life, see nature, see the destruction of climate change, stop wanting to "get yours" and enjoy money and material goods in this life without caring about what impact these choices have to those who follow. Talk to women as peers and not sex objects. Join groups where the focus is not sex or angry fight club bullshit and meet people and get to know them slowly. Go to third spaces like coffee shops or local events - get out of your room and step away from the keyboard. This has become very hard for people. And FFS delete TikTok and Reddit.

So many people have become introverted and focus on hate and allow their homes, apartments, and lives to wither in benign neglect as they go deeper down the redpill rabbit hole. See someone. Go to therapy. Get the medications you need not the ones you want (T, stims, PEDs) - exception being if you actually have ADHD then stims might be appropriate but many men who want these meds do not have low T they do not have ADHD they have profound mood disorders and depression.

Imagine "enjoying" straight, cis men