I was so, so very close to directly calling jordanlund a shitlib after it was almost certainly him who mod deleted my comment, in my own thread, in .world, stating that, speaking from a historical standpoint, the only thing that stops fascists is bullets in their brains.
He of course interpreted that as 'advocating violence', because ... he is a shitlib.
But instead, I composed myself and wrote a more eloquent explanation as to why my comment had been deleted... and, so far, at least that response hasn't been deleted.
Why not post to power tripping bastards?
Because we already know the .world mod/admin team is a bunch of shit lib collaborators from how they acted when Luigi was framed for shooting some asshole who murdered tens of thousands of people by overseeing the denial of their healthcare.
Sorry to rant but goddamnit am I on the exact same wavelength as this post right now.
Jordan, if you read this, go fuck yourself and keep telling yourself Warren was a better choice than Bernie, you slimy rat fuck.
Jordan probably is reading this, he loves scanning comments for people talking about him and then whining about it. Same for a few other common .world users.
But man, Jordan literally banned one of my favorite users from a community because they caught Jodan lying about his poitions and documenting the fact the Dems actively did not care about the lives of brown people home and abroad and queer folk.
The .world shitlib community has absolutely lost its fucking mind. They were unironically sticking up for Elon musk again already a couple days ago. Fucking depressing.
And musk is already crawling back to trump, making them look like even bigger fools for being so eager to sell us all out for the opportunity to work with a nazi.
The other day I suggested there is a lack of self awareness amongst the more brigadier types and they're still messaging me demanding what I meant by that. Like I posted this morning and within minutes I get a new message trying to go back into it.
Some folks are just not equipped to operate outside of communities they don't control and moderate.
I think I vaguely remember that. I've said elsewhere it's to the point I'm beginning to wonder if that instance's mods and admins didn't have an agenda. Oddly enough, that was the first instance I tried to join and couldn't ever get approval, and I was still very much more entrenched in shitlib indoctrination.
saying the only thing that stops fascists is bullets in their brains
So, first off, banning this as violence suggests stopping fascists is generally desirable; a position i don't think he shares.
Second: that's blatantly untrue. They're not, like, werewolves. Putting aside how that whole myth is an allegory for the abuse cycle and they kind of are. There's lots of places shooting them would work, depending on the bullet and availability of medical care. Plus, things other than bullets that worked. There's ectensive research by zukov et al suggesting it can be done with an artillery shell, and anecdotes from research in the pacific islands backing the 'sharp stick' hypothesis.
I hereby repent before the supreme council of enlightened liberals for unintentionally using language which could possibly be interpreted as invoking an allegory which could possibly be interpreted as me advocating for, or suggesting the use, or evoking imagery of violence against furries, who are valid members of society that have for too long been unjustly forced out of public life.
I thus willingly submit myself to be bound inside the no holds barred yiff pit for a duration not exceeding 24 hrs, whereby my latent fascist tendencies will be expunged from me, and I shall emerge, born again, as a more tolerant member of society.
I used to defend JordanLund when people called him a Zionist
After his recent actions banning anti-zionist voices on WorldNews, banning Independent media that reports on the genocide, and banning pro-palestinian emancipatory slogans, it's overwhelmingly obvious he is at the very least a Zionist Sympathizer
He's also terribly reactionary on many social issues
I hate being that cringe guy in the comments posting FD quotes, but this one is such a banger
Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and it never will. Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have found out the exact measure of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them, and these will continue till they are resisted with either words or blows, or with both. The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress
Frederick Douglass was born into slavery 1818, in Maryland. He escaped at age twenty, and went on to became a prolific author, public speaker, and political activist, in the fight to abolish slavery.
But in condemning violence it would be an act of irresponsibility not to be as strong in condemning the conditions in our society that cause people to feel so angry that they have no alternative but to engage in riots. What we must see is that a riot is the language of the unheard.
What is it that America has failed to hear? It has failed to hear that the plight of the Negro poor has worsened over the last 10 or 12 years. It's failed to hear that the promises of freedom and justice have not been met. It has failed to hear that large segments of white society are more concerned about tranquility and the status quo than about justice, equality, and humanity.
The lib politicians did not roll over to facism, they rolled over for money ... for loosely regulated and barely looked at Super PAC donations and withdrawals. They rolled over for legalized corruption. Fascism is just the gift wrap that they had to take those presents in.
This lady is kind of right. We are not likely to vote our way out of this.
That's the point. It could have been anything the politicians and news media cooked up. They could have created a crazed religious movement, a hate filled campaign against another country, they could attack another religion ... except MAGA went "fuck it" and checked "All of the Above".
It's not about the message. Tyranny does not thrive in peace. It is about directing the weak willed portion of the population that they have complete control over.
Idk, they seem okay with it as long as they're the ones in control.
Just look at their responses to the election it's not that we ran an unpopular candidate and gop lite policies it's because we didn't go far enough to the right!
That's not how the American political system works. Parties have changed ideology or collapsed and been replaced with new ones, but there's always only two major parties.
Neolibs are already super eager to work with the nazi elon. They want to follow him to the right like they did with netanyahu and manchin and lieberman.
We can't help it, we need more theory according to one post, but critical reading and critical thinking are hard, especially when even secondary school reading comprehension has abysmal standards. I read better than most I know and struggle with it.
I had this exact convo with a friend recently. Peaceful protest can work against a government with a conscious conscience. The US gov’t has consistently shown to not have a conscious conscience. My local organizers don’t really seem to get this, which just means they, and many of the general citizens they direct, will be underprepared for the conflict that will almost inevitably arise.
Peaceful protest or "sitting it out" is when you have hope to last longer than the current crisis.
The current crisis, at least in the US, is not going to vanish that quickly. The real crisis is the dropping wages, and that's not gonna revert much. Socialism or barbarism!
The moment the inconvenience of jail or ending up dying during an insurrection is better than the actual situation, shit is gonna spiral. People will riot violently, government is gonna fuck with the lives of folks who didn't, more will join, more will get fucked, and repeat until Donnie is no more.
Feel like they're ignoring the fact that these massive protests are a sign of contention and the point is to not devolve into complete violence. We do need to make it harder for him to convince others that we are not unruly people, but people protesting actual grievances.
Absolutely right. Even Gavin Newsome is doing nothing but threatening to file a lawsuit. Buncha goddamn pussies. There is only ONE way to deal with Nazis and it isnt bEiNg pEaCeFuL
It is absolutely right to use direct action against the Nazis and stop trying to walk on eggshells to keep them from acting like Nazis. Nazis are gonna Nazi; you cannot appease them by being pacifists. The entire shitlib argument is fucking bullshit and is what gave us the fucking Nazis in the first place.
Lately people are starting to come around to ways social media makes people sick, and understanding consequences of the information age; from my experience the first casualty of this was not our attention spans, but our will to resist. Apparently just telling people your opinions on things anonymously gratifies your ego just enough without having to sign a petition, or stand outside in a line. "I'm so passionate about this subject I spend every waking moment talking about it online.; uh yeah I can't make it to the protest sorry, It's like a 30 minute drive and I have work in the morning."
Second of all: it's hard to imagine the intellectual development that led to socialism and anarchism, without the French revolution. Of course, it's a counterfactual scenario to imagine history without the French revolution -- but still, things happened the way they did.
Edit: French revolutionaries liberated women and banned slavery -- until the counter revolution.
Anarchism has always existed. It's kind of the default for hunter gatherers. We would probably have different popular flavors.
That's a very very simplified view of how they resolved slavery and gender issues in the french revolution. They wobbled, slipped forward, slipped back. And with the long communication times to colonies it got weird.
Im aware of the problems with the guillotine and the entire hot mess the first french revolution, where people with barely any concept of what freedom even is suddenly had the reins of power and fucked up basically everything, because how could they not, even if they did trust each other (they didn't) but the thing they were pushing out was such a shit show the fuckups barely counted and they racked up an impressive string of wins.
I didn't know, so I had to look. That's a bit of a rabbit hole, but it looks like the answer is Patrice de MacMahon, or maybe Adolphe Theirs.
If you're talking more in abstractly in the sense of political ideology, it's kinda tough to say. The government was less than a year old, fresh out of the imperial monarchy of Napoleon III, recovering from their losses to Prussia.
MacMahon was Napoleon III's Marshal, it's not a stretch to imagine he may have harbored imperialist sentiments.
Thiers was certainly more liberal, which only goes to reinforce my point that liberals aren't inherently bad at revolutions. He was in the middle of his own revolution (again) and dissolved the Commune's revolution in a month's time.
You'd be right to take issue with the Bloody Week for other reasons, but you can't say it supports the idea that liberals can't do revolutions.
Most people aren't going to risk their lives for this shithole until elections stop altogether.
Look at past examples of revolts and civil wars. Minority factions and secessionists pretty much never win and often end up operating in ways that promote war crimes.
Something i have brought up before as an example is when i was in elementary school and high school, i was bullied very very badly. They would say horrific things and beat me up. This happened for almost 10 years.
Everyone always told me "ignore them. Be the bigger person.", "if you hit them, you are just as bad.", "if you ignore them, they will stop.", "have you asked them to stop bullying you?".
Teachers would constantly make excuses and ignore the bullies. Because if they said something about it, the whole class would lie and say i did something to deserve it. I never did anything because i was terrified.
One day i got jumped again after school by one of them and i snapped. I beat the everliving fuck out of him. The last punch was straight to the throat and he struggled to breath.
Not a single person in the class bullied me ever again. Not a single word was said to me from that day on.
My point is that asking bullies and fascists nicely to stop, does not work. They are not playing according to the rules. We are currently "fighting" them with the assumption they have morals and will stop if we firmly tell them to. Did the protest annoy trump? 100%. Probably spend the entire night annoyed. Is he rethinking his fascist plans? Absolutely not.
I do think the protests are beautiful to see. So much solidarity and love. Its amazing to see with our own eyes that our side is MASSIVE. and that the right does not have nearly as much people as they pretend they do.
But i also know it won't change but. Trump is not going to leave. He will not stop advancing his fascist plans. ICE continues their gestapo bullshit. LGBT and womens rights continue to be taken away.
It's a beautiful morale boost. But sadly that is all it is.
Sorry for the rant. I do love seeing the protests and i really have so much respect for the people out on the streets. But i don't think much, if anything, will change.
Educate me. I mean this with no hostility, and I'll be honest about the fact that I'm not an American and am seeing this from the outside. I'm not attacking anyone and I'm not defending any one stance, because I'd like to be educated and I'm not confident my news is giving me the whole picture.
Educate me.
Here's what I hear.
American troops (including marines) have been deployed without the governor's consent (this sounds terrifying)
This has been temporarily suspended because it was a hasty move and requires the governor's consent
If this turns violent then it can be considered an insurrection (or meet whatever terms required to be considered) and the insurrection act can be invoked (this sounds terrifying) (why would you encourage violence in this circumstance?)
I get how pacifism can be the wrong move in some circumstances, but this post sounds like it came from people wanting to stir the pot. And that's exactly what Trump would want, right?
Please spell it out for the rest of us. And how can I help?
Isn't this exactly what Trump would want? I may be missing the point here, and as an ally I don't mean to take anyone's energy away from far more important efforts.
Please educate me (if you can). Please fight for your rights!
When people are having members of their community kidnapped at graduation ceremonies, hearing stories of secret police trying to enter elementary schools to abduct 1st graders, that affects you. Masked agents of the state who hide their identities are routinely disappearing people, and when communities respond to protect each other from abduction, or protest these monstrous actions, the police show up to disperse them so the kidnappers can do what they came to do. They routinely attack people unprovoked.
The other thing to understand is that while the outrageously ghoulish shit ICE and other state bodies have been getting up to, this situation with the police has been the status quo for a very long time. The same forces have been doing this shit to virtually every form of protest for ages. These are the same people that are responsible for the highest incarceration rate in the world, with a for-profit prison industry, and contracts to exploit incarcerated labour.
The point I'm trying to make here is that the situation is already incredibly violent, that violence has just been normalized, and people are literally trying to protect their neighbors from being kidnapped by the state. Communities have been experiencing relentless institutional and systemic oppression for generations. Appealing to the conscience of people brutalizing and kidnapping targeted groups on behalf of the state is a fool's errand, they clearly have none.
Asking people to remain completely peaceful is to ask them to sit back and watch their neighbors disappear. It's to ask them to passively watch as more people get subjected to greater levels of violence, to show up and be beaten themselves for daring to resist the expansion of fascism. Burnt Waymos and shattered glass can be replaced, rebuilt. Objects are not people, and it's overwhelmingly cops that have been damaging people.
I am not advocating for violence, but I think every person understands the innate urge to rebel against oppression. Whatever shape that takes, people that are not putting their bodies on the line do not get to tell those that are what to do.
There are also people who have no choice in the matter, their bodies are on the line either way because state agents have orders to take control of them in some way or other. Before you think to tell people what they should or should not do, take a moment to ask yourself how it would sound if it was you and yours in that position.
Beyond that, expecting that years of passivity will somehow pay off is absurd. If it worked, the situation would be getting better over time, not worse. This regime is going to escalate no matter what, it's already deporting dissidents and shipping innocent people off to foreign concentration camps. They're already actively trying to revoke citizenship from all sorts, unilaterally criminalizing completely law-abiding people overnight.
We know where this road leads. Whatever actions people take to shut it down, history will be on their side.
Did you ever get bullied in school or see a bully terrorize other kids?
Was the bully stopped by appeals for him to act nicely? Was the bully stopped by the administration? Did the bully stop beating a kid when the kid didn't fight back?
Yes the bully will beat another kid and then cry wolf when the kid defends itself. However the administration full well knows who the bully is and decides to side with him anyways.
If you fight back you might loose. If you don't fight back you will definitely loose.
Not OP but for your second bullet, the idea is that we're getting the insurrection act or martial law pretty much no matter what because trump wants it and is looking for any excuse.
So, if it's going to happen anyway, why not do it on our terms?
No it's not a beacon, its cancer, a blight, spreading itself like a corruptuous disease on this world. It can't die soon enough since for many millions it is already too late.
Death to Seppoland, the Occupation Regime of West Palestine and Genocidesmany
There's a much better reason to not be violent: So that you can get more people onto the streets. Figures that most people don't fancy dodging burning trash cans and you want everybody on the streets, not just your polycule. People need to feel like they're safe at the protest, the only danger there is is coming from the state.
That's a nice argument when the cops are not yet shooting random passerbys with rubber bullets and teargas. People don't stay home because they're afraid of other protestors.
I hope you're not sincerely avoiding protests because of an ex. I can't laugh about exes and bad sex when I live in fear every day that ICE might snatch my partner off the street.
It's not a bad joke on its own, it's just in poor taste considering the state of things. The fear of Trump's dictatorship far outweighs the fear of running into even my most abusive ex.
So, whether or not this is a bit¹: the potential harm from edgy jokes is the same as the harm from dystopian fiction warning us about bad things that could happen. The potential for harm is that dipshits with zero self awareness and less media literacy will just blindly copy the thing. Like how siliconbvalley billionaires have tried to do almost literally every part of 'snow crash'.
If my character in the bit is shitty and not someone you would want to be at any point, or I'm on a server defederated from beehaw and world; this danger is mitigated.
And for those who have actually been through shit, your criticism here comes off as privileged, colonizing, and completely misunderstanding what humor is, because you've never had a use for it. It comes off as 'if i laugh at myself i am lesser, because the only way i know how to laugh is by sorting groups and affirming my group's position at the top'. And thats a really bad fucking look. Im not saying shut up; im saying read up on the topic.
That's what you take away here? That I'm some privileged, humorless bigot that's never "been through shit"?
You gathered that from one comment. I guess all the 900-ish comments I've made here on Lemmy, many of which discuss my experiences with "shit" like disabilities, homelessness, and sexism just don't factor in. I make no secret of my struggles, past and present, and I genuinely fear my partner getting kidnapped and tortured in El Salvador. I was born with some kinds of targets already on my back, but under this administration, my partner's targets shine brighter than mine.
Of course, I didn't expect you to know any of that, in the same way I wouldn't expect you to know much of anything about a stranger after one interaction with them.
But it doesn't matter, as I can see I'm onboard the Lemmy Downvote train. So choo-choo, motherfuckers.
There's a massive fucking vibe difference between a crowd taking cover behind whatever is at hand and one setting fire to shit and throwing back stones is all I'm saying. Be the former vibe. Stones aren't going to stop them. Assault rifles and tanks wouldn't stop them. Pining for escalation hands them excuses on a platter for no strategic gain whatsoever, it's pissing in the wind. The only law you should be breaking is refusing to follow a dispersal order, or at least take your sweet time with it, everything else is fedposting.
The only law you should be breaking is refusing to follow a dispersal order
And that's the one they point to as an excuse to start shooting, you shitlib.
They don't need an excuse. They will escalate it long before anyone in the street does. It's also wild to me that 'throwing stones' is somehow seen as more violent than literal fucking munitions and chemical weapons. "Just stand there and let them shoot at you" is quite a take from someone who has clearly never been shot at by fascists in riot gear.
If this were an ordinary liberal riot guard we might be able to count on deescalation, but as libs have so been eager to point out when votemaxxing online, this isn't an ordinary liberal riot guard. Either bend over and spread for the next phase of american fascist policing or shut the fuck up about how people are choosing to resist it. Communities are fighting against unaccountable and un-identifiable gestapo pigs blackbagging innocent children - don't concern troll us about deescalation.
To shoot? No. To justify themselves in the media, in the public eye? Yes.
It’s also wild to me that ‘throwing stones’ is somehow seen as more violent than literal fucking munitions and chemical weapons.
It's not. That's as much a shitlib take as "police violence isn't violence because it's state violence".
But it's the perception that exists among the population, you're not going to change it by throwing stones.
Communities are fighting against unaccountable and un-identifiable gestapo pigs blackbagging innocent children
You know what people did to protect Jews from the Gestapo? Hide them. You can't protect them by throwing stones for the simple reason that police dgaf when they're hit by stones, they'll just blackbag you alongside.
Look there's exactly one thing I'm saying here: Act strategically. I'm not arguing against violence because it's evil -- at most, violence is unaesthetic. I'm arguing against it because, unless you start an actual insurrection with plans to take on and take out the military, it's ineffective. Just because your pigs are worse than what we're dealing with over here doesn't mean that lashing out at them suddenly becomes good praxis. You're there to have an effect, not to blow off steam.
To justify themselves in the media, in the public eye? Yes.
No they don't. Just look at how often they use footage from completely unrelated events in their coverage. Anyone with even a slight predilection against protestors or a law enforcement bias will accept any willful misrepresentation as 'aesthetic' and condemn the whole group regardless.
But it’s the perception that exists among the population, you’re not going to change it by throwing stones.
Nothing the protestors actually do will move the needle - it's the extreme overreaction of the fed that will.
You know what people did to protect Jews from the Gestapo? Hide them.
Only after the Nazis had actually banned extra-party protests and clamped down on all opposition, and only after they had already carted away several million jews and political opponents off to concentration camps. You want to wait that long do something? Be my guest.
I’m arguing against it because, unless you start an actual insurrection with plans to take on and take out the military, it’s ineffective.
The goal of most rebellions isn't to take control of the reigns of power - the goal is to make it so costly to suppress that the state is forced to cut their loss, or else risk the resistance spreading. There is no version of resisting a fascist movement in the US that involves armed militias overpowering federal forces. Liberals are desperate to maintain the illusion of democracy by simply resisting at the fringes - if they don't piss Trump off too much, then maybe there will still be enough democracy left for them to vote him away without any real conflict! What a wonderful fantasy that is.
Liberals need to pick a lane - either trump is a dictator who must be removed before he solidifies his hold on power, or we need to conduct ourselves until the midterms so that we can vote our way out. It can't be both.
You want to wait that long do something? Be my guest.
Who said anything about waiting? Stop posting and organise that shit. Don't look at me I'm on the other side of the Atlantic.
Nothing the protestors actually do will move the needle - it’s the extreme overreaction of the fed that will.
Please look up opinion polling after the Kent State Massacre: It took years for public opinion to shift away from "the National Guard did nothing wrong". For what you say to occur the overreaction has to not just be extreme, it also has to be obvious -- like the Aussie journalist which got shot, that's a good video. Things don't become more obviously an overreaction when cars are burning and shopfronts are deglassed.
Liberals need to pick a lane - either trump is a dictator who must be removed before he solidifies his hold on power, or we need to conduct ourselves until the midterms so that we can vote our way out.
I wouldn't argue for either. Both are unrealistic for various reasons and the latter isn't a good in itself. What you want to do is obstruct the fuck out the feds so they fall on their face, that's best done on a level of state and lower administrations. California isn't cooperating with ICE so make sure to have the state's back. Yes, I, an anarchist is saying "have the state's back", fascism is too large a threat to risk over feelings of disgust regarding liberal democracy. Last thing you want is the Governor seeing himself in a situation where he has to ask the feds to intervene to keep (a semblance of) order instead of being able to say "fuck off feds we got this".
For what you say to occur the overreaction has to not just be extreme, it also has to be obvious – like the Aussie journalist which got shot, that’s a good video.
Yup, and with any luck Trump will continue with the lack of subtlety.
Things don’t become more obviously an overreaction when cars are burning and shopfronts are deglassed.
Those things happen every day in the US. Hell, some sports fans will flip cars after a moderately good football game. Corporatized media will find footage of those things regardless of what the actual protestors are doing, and implicate them with it. Even when counterprotestors are actually assaulting peaceful protestors, Fox news and their many subsidiary channels will find the one shot with an angry exchange that paints the picture and use it to implicate the entire movement. And when they do, liberals will be right there to wag their fingers.
The good news is that Trump is such a dipshit that he'll send in fucking tanks for just about any goddamned reason, and those are really fucking hard to hide and even harder to justify with a few broken windows and lots of unarmed protestors.
What you want to do is obstruct the fuck out the feds so they fall on their face, that’s best done on a level of state and lower administrations
Yea, this is what i'm referring to by saying 'middling around the fringes'. There is no amount of legalese that will slow down an actual authoritarian. You can't run around screaming that he's going to fucking end democracy and then strategize on how to bury him in legal threats. Either he's a dictator or he can be obstructed by judicial paperwork. You can't have a dictator that politely complies with the judiciary, that's what makes them a dictator.
This is how liberals end up collaborating with fascists: they are so uncomfortable with extralegal resistance that they delude themselves into a belief that working within the structures that are actively being dismantled is the 'only realistic way' to resist against it. What happens when we get to the 'outlawing of rival political parties' part of fascism? We've already crossed over the 'no due process for criminals' line, how many more core democratic foundations do we have to lose before it's game over?
Not everyone can or should be in black bloc sabotaging ICE vehicles, but pretending as if the usual checks and balances are still functioning is willful ignorance.
I know, right? These fuvking anachronistic world war mashup re-enacters, fucking tear gassing and shooting random people as they get so mean towards the cops!
Look if I was gonna be falsely accused of assault and knew for a fact that there was nothing I could do about it in court I might beat the shit out of the accusor. Trump is gonna get what he wants whether we like it or not. Fascism is inevitable and Trump is only a symptom of that process
Don't do the thing you want to do to try to stop the bad thing happening, because they'll use your wanting to stop it as justification whether or not you act on it. Better to just sit back and let it happen, right?
(It's already happened though, since he's now federalising national guard against State's wishes it's basically now military dictatorship, the rope just hasn't finishing tightening yet.)
Support needs to be sapped, and most importantly at this point work on emotionally connecting with soldiers so that guardsmen are more loyal to ideals and citizenry than the nutter-in-chief.
If you really believe that, then you must know that attacking them isn't going to get you there. They need to see that what they're doing is wrong. And the only way to do that, is to make sure their orders are unjustified.
I think there's a lot of space between peaceful and don't directly attack the guardsmen.
Maybe I've been too inundated by people who think graffiti or smashing windows of targeted buildings is "too violent"... Meanwhile guardsmen are already shooting reporters and protesters without provocation.
Takes a lot of balls to go full on MLK and hope that the forces brutalise kids... But maybe that's what is needed. Then again, MLK could hope that federal forces would step in to keep the peace, not push for escalation and killings.
At this point, at least they're still using rubber bullets. But, that's the entire plan at the moment...keep shooting non-lethal rounds until someone shoots back.
Then...the safeties come off, and a lot of people die. It all depends on how long the protesters can keep their shit together before someone changes the nature of the conflict.
Right now, most of those soldiers are not going to be ok shooting civilians. But the instant they're getting shot at, there are no civilians anymore. Just targets.
There needs to be a consideration of empathy on the other side. If the oppressors lack empathy and escalates everything, everything you do will be "doing exactly what they want."
I disagree. Keeping these protest peaceful, is exactly what the Trump administration doesn't want. If they are looking for a justification to escalate the situation, then NOT giving them one, makes it that much harder for them to accomplish their objectives. Every single opportunity to prove them wrong about what they are doing, is a victory. It needs to be demonstrated at every turn.
Does anyone think that Donnie is going to be sad if someone burns a truck? Or a Home Depot? Or an ICE officer?
Don't follow the provocateurs in pointless vandalism. Protest, and save the rocks to throw at the people who are directly responsible for this blatant fascism.
True. But they have more trucks. And if you arrest/deport/shoot the people burning the trucks, there's a chance that the trucks will eventually stop being burnt. Donnie would love to escalate this all the way to a fascist racist police state.
Grandma's blocking ICE arrests gives off real tank-man-of-Tiananmen-square energy, and it's hard to justify shooting "normal americans"without looking like the fascist goons that they are. But, shooting a guy waving a Mexican flag while looting and buring down a shoe store ... some might agree that it's justified to stop this "foreign invasion" with military force.
I can't blame people for wanting to stop ICE from kidnapping innocent people. But, we don't want to serve up justifications on a silver platter either.
LAPD shot journalists who were providing live coverage of the protests.
We are well past the point. Also serve justification for who? The notion not to serve them justifications implies that there is a sizable part of the population that would take to the streets if they see unjust police violence. We already have the unjust police violence. Now is the time to take to the streets. And taking to the streets means to not obey the dispersal orders and curfews that will be placed. Because then the protests will not be any threat to the government.
I know this is an anarchy community, but peaceful protests have been successful before. And the thing is, if the authority literally fired and killed a civilian, the authority will immediately lose legitimacy. This is what protestors are railing on. They are like "what are you gonna do kill us?"
Their goal is your death or pacification, there's no reason to do their job for them. If you want to see the disgusting depths pacifism goes to, look at this gandhi quote:
You do realise that firing at the authorities first will give them perfect justification and legitimises their use of force? This is literally what Trump is waiting for. It is a blinking game and see who blinks first. You don't give the ruling corrupt power any more legitimacy.
How does letting a cop shoot you, give you "legitimacy"? Self-defense is not some corrupting infectious disease, and a refusal to be bullied is honorable.
I know you won't read this, but at least others should know the religious basis of these pacifist arguments:
How does letting a cop shoot you, give you "legitimacy"?
So far no police or soldiers are carrying lethal weapons. But once they do...
Again, Trump is looking for reason to use lethal force. As soon as any of the protestors shoot the police, he can invoke the Insurrection Act as per authority given to him by the constitution. You or anyone don't want to give him reason to do that and legitimise his deployment of force. If it comes to it, YOU wait to be given the reason to use violence on authority. You gain the moral high ground for not provoking lethal violence in the first place. Therefore, it is not pacifism. It's not pacifism to do peaceful demonstrations. Pacifism implies being completely passive and completely rejecting violence in any shape or form. It is not pacifist to both peacefully protest but being prepared if violence erupts. Violence is only the last resort. There is a reason why the court favours someone who was the first to be physically assaulted, despite that person being a complete jerk for being verbally abusive in the first place. You would to prefer to be the person provoked to self-defense, than be the provoker to someone. You lose the public court of opinion for provoking physical violence first. That public court of opinion will shift to the side of Trump if any of the protestors shoot and kill the police or soldiers.
Civilians have been teargassed and kettled before while peacefully protesting - recently - and the public reaction to it was largely either 'meh' or 'oh no I feel sorry for the poor people who live near those violent riots'.
The tear gassing isn't new. What's new is deploying the national guards and marines. And what would be newer is if the national guards and the marines killed a civilian. Trump is escalating and trying to provoke Los Angelinos to justify the use of force.
Well, it did propel further the withdrawal of US from Vietnam. It further de-legitimised US involvement in Vietnam by the public.
This time is far more consequential and existential though. If the guardsmen and marines killed any of LA civilians, it could cause a civil war and perhaps the collapse of the United States as we know it. But you still would not want to be the one to fire the first shot and give Trump legitimacy.
Well, it did propel further the withdrawal of US from Vietnam.
The Vietnamese people themselves did that. The US anti-war protest movement was a great thing, but the Vietnamese people defeated the US empire through their own efforts.
Of course, but the American public's lost appetite to prosecute the war is what pushed Washington to pull out completely. After all, American troops actually killed more North Vietnamese soldiers than vice versa; but a North Vietnamese official declared "that may be the case, but that is irrelevant". War is as much fueled by the will to fight as the number of bodies the belligerents throw into the battlefield. A country could attain more casualties than the opponent and still not lose the will to fight (like the USSR during World War 2).
Okay, but are we talking about right now Americans being replaced at any second? And how efficient are the robots doing their jobs overall? Can they fix themselves if a small screw got stuck in small nooks and crannies in the conveyor belt? Can they verify that the alarm is genuine and not false alarm? Can this be rolled out en masse?
Robbing stores isn't good PR. I'm working with the right to do positive PR for you guys if you ever do anything to a cop or to cop property. I'm pretty good at selling it "as long as they aren't harming peaceful citizens or local businesses. Who the fuck cares if zog has a bad day." Then you have people looting stores and I can't run PR for you on the right. And they look at the news and say, "See, getting the illegals out of here was a good idea."
When people steal stuff the whole movement, even the people not doing it, just becomes propaganda for the other side. What would be increadable PR is if crowds physically prevented looting.
For real! In this goddam hellscape we live in, these libs want to shame us for enjoying even the barest symbolic victories. Cop car on fire is objectively cool, no matter what any liberal killjoy scold says.
It is objectively cool. But harming mom and pop businesses gets really hard to sell as cool. Trying to convince people outside of your political silo that burning cop cars is cool is difficult but possible. The other one isn't.
Do we still have "mom and pop businesses" in major city downtown locations? Anyone who doesn't think burning cop cars is neat, isn't someone I'm going to be able to have a productive conversation with. They need to wake the fuck up about what the police and military do more than I need to handwring about the optics of rebellion.
There's nothing wrong with human rights but how does harming the lives of innocent people help human rights? It makes it hard to sell to other people you are serious about human rights. Instead you just look like a problem. A problem that motivates leaning on fascism. So when stores get robbed you are making negative ground with anything you want to do.
Well you loose the political game when it ends up on TV. You are making negative progress with your political goals because the political will to get rid of what are perceived as "lawless illegals" only increases.
Is it morally right to loose? Because this is how you loose.
Then you have people looting stores and I can't run PR for you on the right. And they look at the news and say, "See, getting the illegals out of here was a good idea."
During news coverage of hurricane Helena, when marganalized people availed themselves of foodstuffs, they were called "looters," and when whites did it, they were brave who were caring for their families. I'm not talking about those who took other things, but then, why shouldn't someone have a tv or radio to listen to news?
Looking into the source when someone advocates for mass violence is creepy to you?
Her Patreon has a fuckin Dynasty Warriors screenshot for an icon. Convince me this person is worth listening to because from here, she's extremely online.
Look at this motherfucker sitting anonymously while literal jackbooted fascist shit is happening and wringing their hands because someone said that you cannot ever be peaceful enough for fascists and asking them to postt some crimin' for their own evaluation. 'Fuck outa here, shitlib.
Either that or I'm annoyed by the stupid idea from a wannabe internet celebrity getting posted everywhere like it's profound or important because it's written in a kind of funny edgelord style.
Based on this reply, I would believe that you're actually "Nina"
It doesn't. But the movie star/video game PFPs and Tumblr rant style of writing heavily give the impression that they're a dime-a-dozen blogger with little real world experience because they're terminally online
Figured she'd say something if she's so passionate about being there. I looked at her website and just see a blog - which to be clear, I think is fine. We need writers. What we don't need need is an armchair warrior telling everyone they're doing it wrong in an finger-blaming rant. It's like she just wants something to write about
Now as for the actual content of the message, the dumb hyperbole in her second paragraph makes it obvious she's just ranting and doesn't actually have a plan. She's got a chip on her shoulder but if she thinks she's so smart, she should lead the charge...not grumble from the back of the room.
Sure, I'll say it nice and slow so you can understand: The majority of violence at antifa protests were from cops in antifa clothes. How dare I question the motives here, right?
You're saying I'm a creepy little shit for wanting to verify that this person wasn't some infiltrator riling people up. Sounds like you'd follow anyone if they used some angry words in their post.
I was so, so very close to directly calling jordanlund a shitlib after it was almost certainly him who mod deleted my comment, in my own thread, in .world, stating that, speaking from a historical standpoint, the only thing that stops fascists is bullets in their brains.
He of course interpreted that as 'advocating violence', because ... he is a shitlib.
But instead, I composed myself and wrote a more eloquent explanation as to why my comment had been deleted... and, so far, at least that response hasn't been deleted.
Why not post to power tripping bastards?
Because we already know the .world mod/admin team is a bunch of shit lib collaborators from how they acted when Luigi was framed for shooting some asshole who murdered tens of thousands of people by overseeing the denial of their healthcare.
Sorry to rant but goddamnit am I on the exact same wavelength as this post right now.
Jordan, if you read this, go fuck yourself and keep telling yourself Warren was a better choice than Bernie, you slimy rat fuck.
Jordan probably is reading this, he loves scanning comments for people talking about him and then whining about it. Same for a few other common .world users.
But man, Jordan literally banned one of my favorite users from a community because they caught Jodan lying about his poitions and documenting the fact the Dems actively did not care about the lives of brown people home and abroad and queer folk.
.world is a shitlib encampment.
The .world shitlib community has absolutely lost its fucking mind. They were unironically sticking up for Elon musk again already a couple days ago. Fucking depressing.
"No you don't get it, if Musk funded Democrats he'd be tolerable! Ignore everything else, if he's blue he's good!"
They're kinda forgetting about the nazi salute.
Do you... Do you really think they're forgetting?
They're not forgetting, they want that in their preferred party and just pretend it's not a big deal.
Anything can be pappered over with greenbacks.
Forgetting? Fuck, they'd been waiting for the opportunity to ride elon's botched plastic surgery dick since the instant he delivered that salute.
Did they even gaf that booker did it too?
Yes, but they seem too willing to let it slide.
That's extremely discomforting.
And musk is already crawling back to trump, making them look like even bigger fools for being so eager to sell us all out for the opportunity to work with a nazi.
Is he? Seems like calling the president a pedophile would be a pretty burnt bridge
I didn't say he was successful.
The correct plural is 'infestation', please dont be a dick by calling them the wrong thing.
Very true. That's a better term.
The other day I suggested there is a lack of self awareness amongst the more brigadier types and they're still messaging me demanding what I meant by that. Like I posted this morning and within minutes I get a new message trying to go back into it.
Some folks are just not equipped to operate outside of communities they don't control and moderate.
I think I vaguely remember that. I've said elsewhere it's to the point I'm beginning to wonder if that instance's mods and admins didn't have an agenda. Oddly enough, that was the first instance I tried to join and couldn't ever get approval, and I was still very much more entrenched in shitlib indoctrination.
So, first off, banning this as violence suggests stopping fascists is generally desirable; a position i don't think he shares.
Second: that's blatantly untrue. They're not, like, werewolves. Putting aside how that whole myth is an allegory for the abuse cycle and they kind of are. There's lots of places shooting them would work, depending on the bullet and availability of medical care. Plus, things other than bullets that worked. There's ectensive research by zukov et al suggesting it can be done with an artillery shell, and anecdotes from research in the pacific islands backing the 'sharp stick' hypothesis.
So maybe you're the real fascist.
How do we know they aren't vampires? They cover their faces when inside and protect themselves from sunlight by wearing full military gear outside.
I hereby repent before the supreme council of enlightened liberals for unintentionally using language which could possibly be interpreted as invoking an allegory which could possibly be interpreted as me advocating for, or suggesting the use, or evoking imagery of violence against furries, who are valid members of society that have for too long been unjustly forced out of public life.
I thus willingly submit myself to be bound inside the no holds barred yiff pit for a duration not exceeding 24 hrs, whereby my latent fascist tendencies will be expunged from me, and I shall emerge, born again, as a more tolerant member of society.
Or at least a fluffier one.
Aroooo!!!
(ok thats about as much of this bit as I csn handle, hahah)
I used to defend JordanLund when people called him a Zionist
After his recent actions banning anti-zionist voices on WorldNews, banning Independent media that reports on the genocide, and banning pro-palestinian emancipatory slogans, it's overwhelmingly obvious he is at the very least a Zionist Sympathizer
He's also terribly reactionary on many social issues
No badjacketing in here
Welp, didn't realize/remember there was a rule against that, but at least your explanation as it stands still lets people roughly know what I said.
I find it concerning when anyone spends that much time online, I already feel like I do lol
Being terminally online is terrible for mental health, and I think being devoid of actual people IRL makes ppl more reactionary
Muh brotha!
I hate being that cringe guy in the comments posting FD quotes, but this one is such a banger
FD is FDR I guess?
Frederick Douglass
Never heard of them
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Douglass
Frederick Douglass was born into slavery 1818, in Maryland. He escaped at age twenty, and went on to became a prolific author, public speaker, and political activist, in the fight to abolish slavery.
They've never heard of you either
FD Signifier, actually ☝🏼
The lib politicians did not roll over to facism, they rolled over for money ... for loosely regulated and barely looked at Super PAC donations and withdrawals. They rolled over for legalized corruption. Fascism is just the gift wrap that they had to take those presents in.
This lady is kind of right. We are not likely to vote our way out of this.
That's the point. It could have been anything the politicians and news media cooked up. They could have created a crazed religious movement, a hate filled campaign against another country, they could attack another religion ... except MAGA went "fuck it" and checked "All of the Above".
It's not about the message. Tyranny does not thrive in peace. It is about directing the weak willed portion of the population that they have complete control over.
Idk, they seem okay with it as long as they're the ones in control.
Just look at their responses to the election it's not that we ran an unpopular candidate and gop lite policies it's because we didn't go far enough to the right!
Agreed. I wonder if the Dem/Rep political parties are about to flip and trade conservative/liberal policies again.
Doubtful. Most we can hope for is both splitting up.
And have many smaller ones
I dont think they would do that, it would be harder to trade wins.
True, but at some point they'll just want to stay in power. So we'll probably just have dnc officially merge into gop at some point
That's not how the American political system works. Parties have changed ideology or collapsed and been replaced with new ones, but there's always only two major parties.
Isn't that fascism?
Close enough.
Their "plan" is just push back juuust enough to make you calm down and then they'll help entrench Nazism further.
Neolibs are already super eager to work with the nazi elon. They want to follow him to the right like they did with netanyahu and manchin and lieberman.
We can't help it, we need more theory according to one post, but critical reading and critical thinking are hard, especially when even secondary school reading comprehension has abysmal standards. I read better than most I know and struggle with it.
Finally, an accurate use for the term "shitlib"
Shitlibs and policing activities they'll never engage in, name a more iconic duo.
Shitlibs and guilt tripping voters while being smug and wondering why no one likes them.
"Don't make us be good. Fall in line, or else it gets
the hosefascism again."👇
shitlibs and selling weapons for genocide.
Fucking extremely this.
God I love Nina, happy to see others are aware of her style.
she just don't miss.
🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥
I had this exact convo with a friend recently. Peaceful protest can work against a government with a
consciousconscience. The US gov’t has consistently shown to not have aconsciousconscience. My local organizers don’t really seem to get this, which just means they, and many of the general citizens they direct, will be underprepared for the conflict that will almost inevitably arise.I'm going to assume
conscious==conscience:)Looool yes oops ty. I butchered it and let autocorrect take over, and then it assumed I wanted that for the second time.
Peaceful protest or "sitting it out" is when you have hope to last longer than the current crisis.
The current crisis, at least in the US, is not going to vanish that quickly. The real crisis is the dropping wages, and that's not gonna revert much. Socialism or barbarism!
The moment the inconvenience of jail or ending up dying during an insurrection is better than the actual situation, shit is gonna spiral. People will riot violently, government is gonna fuck with the lives of folks who didn't, more will join, more will get fucked, and repeat until Donnie is no more.
That is a sentiment that i kinda hear many people say these days ...
Feel like they're ignoring the fact that these massive protests are a sign of contention and the point is to not devolve into complete violence. We do need to make it harder for him to convince others that we are not unruly people, but people protesting actual grievances.
Fight before your not able to
Absolutely right. Even Gavin Newsome is doing nothing but threatening to file a lawsuit. Buncha goddamn pussies. There is only ONE way to deal with Nazis and it isnt bEiNg pEaCeFuL
What do you mean "even"? Gruesome Newsom is the shittiest lib of them all
Fair point. Guess I was speaking to the shitlibs who will be clutching pearls while reading this thread
What? So then how is this "absolutely right"?
It is absolutely right to use direct action against the Nazis and stop trying to walk on eggshells to keep them from acting like Nazis. Nazis are gonna Nazi; you cannot appease them by being pacifists. The entire shitlib argument is fucking bullshit and is what gave us the fucking Nazis in the first place.
Lately people are starting to come around to ways social media makes people sick, and understanding consequences of the information age; from my experience the first casualty of this was not our attention spans, but our will to resist. Apparently just telling people your opinions on things anonymously gratifies your ego just enough without having to sign a petition, or stand outside in a line. "I'm so passionate about this subject I spend every waking moment talking about it online.; uh yeah I can't make it to the protest sorry, It's like a 30 minute drive and I have work in the morning."
To be fair i do actually have work in the morning.
It's like this 
Thanks. I never get it right. Why isnt it automatic?...
Well who knows if you want to post a link or to display the image directly
So the convention is  and it should work
Thanks!!
It has to get worse before it can get better. Violate.
For the few ppl advocating pacifism below, seems like a good time to read this:
The only police reform we have seen in 15 years has been as the result of BLM violent protests.
Violent protest got you every single right you have.
It's historically the only way slaves and the poor have ever improved their lives.
Shut the fuck up
You guys first. Show us how it's done.
Leftists have done many revolutions all around the world. Can’t say the same for liberals.
I see what you're trying to say, but the French and American revolutions were both explicitly liberal.
So, events that didnt actually give us anything good, except the guillotine?
I'm just saying they were successful liberal revolutions.
Successful in what sense?
Displacing the previous government with a different one. What other sense is there?
So, coups are a category of revolution?
You've picked perhaps the worst outcome of the French revolution -- save Napoleon. Burn the guillotine, like the Commune did.
Oh damn, i guess libs didnt give us anything worth having, then.
First of all, I'd like to recommend you this article: https://crimethinc.com/2019/04/08/against-the-logic-of-the-guillotine-why-the-paris-commune-burned-the-guillotine-and-we-should-too
Second of all: it's hard to imagine the intellectual development that led to socialism and anarchism, without the French revolution. Of course, it's a counterfactual scenario to imagine history without the French revolution -- but still, things happened the way they did.
Edit: French revolutionaries liberated women and banned slavery -- until the counter revolution.
Anarchism has always existed. It's kind of the default for hunter gatherers. We would probably have different popular flavors.
That's a very very simplified view of how they resolved slavery and gender issues in the french revolution. They wobbled, slipped forward, slipped back. And with the long communication times to colonies it got weird.
Im aware of the problems with the guillotine and the entire hot mess the first french revolution, where people with barely any concept of what freedom even is suddenly had the reins of power and fucked up basically everything, because how could they not, even if they did trust each other (they didn't) but the thing they were pushing out was such a shit show the fuckups barely counted and they racked up an impressive string of wins.
Things did in fact happen the way they did.
Remember who slaughtered many thousands of civilians at the Paris Commune.
I didn't know, so I had to look. That's a bit of a rabbit hole, but it looks like the answer is Patrice de MacMahon, or maybe Adolphe Theirs.
If you're talking more in abstractly in the sense of political ideology, it's kinda tough to say. The government was less than a year old, fresh out of the imperial monarchy of Napoleon III, recovering from their losses to Prussia.
MacMahon was Napoleon III's Marshal, it's not a stretch to imagine he may have harbored imperialist sentiments.
Thiers was certainly more liberal, which only goes to reinforce my point that liberals aren't inherently bad at revolutions. He was in the middle of his own revolution (again) and dissolved the Commune's revolution in a month's time.
You'd be right to take issue with the Bloody Week for other reasons, but you can't say it supports the idea that liberals can't do revolutions.
Organize first, then fight.
Most people aren't going to risk their lives for this shithole until elections stop altogether.
Look at past examples of revolts and civil wars. Minority factions and secessionists pretty much never win and often end up operating in ways that promote war crimes.
God, the way this has aged
Like a lot from Nina, it has aged like fine spice melange
Something i have brought up before as an example is when i was in elementary school and high school, i was bullied very very badly. They would say horrific things and beat me up. This happened for almost 10 years. Everyone always told me "ignore them. Be the bigger person.", "if you hit them, you are just as bad.", "if you ignore them, they will stop.", "have you asked them to stop bullying you?".
Teachers would constantly make excuses and ignore the bullies. Because if they said something about it, the whole class would lie and say i did something to deserve it. I never did anything because i was terrified.
One day i got jumped again after school by one of them and i snapped. I beat the everliving fuck out of him. The last punch was straight to the throat and he struggled to breath.
Not a single person in the class bullied me ever again. Not a single word was said to me from that day on.
My point is that asking bullies and fascists nicely to stop, does not work. They are not playing according to the rules. We are currently "fighting" them with the assumption they have morals and will stop if we firmly tell them to. Did the protest annoy trump? 100%. Probably spend the entire night annoyed. Is he rethinking his fascist plans? Absolutely not.
I do think the protests are beautiful to see. So much solidarity and love. Its amazing to see with our own eyes that our side is MASSIVE. and that the right does not have nearly as much people as they pretend they do.
But i also know it won't change but. Trump is not going to leave. He will not stop advancing his fascist plans. ICE continues their gestapo bullshit. LGBT and womens rights continue to be taken away.
It's a beautiful morale boost. But sadly that is all it is.
Sorry for the rant. I do love seeing the protests and i really have so much respect for the people out on the streets. But i don't think much, if anything, will change.
Educate me. I mean this with no hostility, and I'll be honest about the fact that I'm not an American and am seeing this from the outside. I'm not attacking anyone and I'm not defending any one stance, because I'd like to be educated and I'm not confident my news is giving me the whole picture.
Educate me.
Here's what I hear.
Please spell it out for the rest of us. And how can I help?
Isn't this exactly what Trump would want? I may be missing the point here, and as an ally I don't mean to take anyone's energy away from far more important efforts.
Please educate me (if you can). Please fight for your rights!
When people are having members of their community kidnapped at graduation ceremonies, hearing stories of secret police trying to enter elementary schools to abduct 1st graders, that affects you. Masked agents of the state who hide their identities are routinely disappearing people, and when communities respond to protect each other from abduction, or protest these monstrous actions, the police show up to disperse them so the kidnappers can do what they came to do. They routinely attack people unprovoked.
If you have never been to a protest where the cops decided to escalate, you cannot know how crystal clear the barbarity becomes. These cops have been pelting peaceful people with pepper balls, tear gas, concussion grenades, and baton rounds. According to a study, those "less lethal" rubber rounds permanently injure ~15% of the people hit by them. 3% are killed, eventually dying to injuries sustained.
Here's a video of someone being shot with one point blank for asking an officer to identify himself, who refuses to do so. Here's a police horse being used to trample a man that is already subdued and surrounded.
The other thing to understand is that while the outrageously ghoulish shit ICE and other state bodies have been getting up to, this situation with the police has been the status quo for a very long time. The same forces have been doing this shit to virtually every form of protest for ages. These are the same people that are responsible for the highest incarceration rate in the world, with a for-profit prison industry, and contracts to exploit incarcerated labour.
The point I'm trying to make here is that the situation is already incredibly violent, that violence has just been normalized, and people are literally trying to protect their neighbors from being kidnapped by the state. Communities have been experiencing relentless institutional and systemic oppression for generations. Appealing to the conscience of people brutalizing and kidnapping targeted groups on behalf of the state is a fool's errand, they clearly have none.
Asking people to remain completely peaceful is to ask them to sit back and watch their neighbors disappear. It's to ask them to passively watch as more people get subjected to greater levels of violence, to show up and be beaten themselves for daring to resist the expansion of fascism. Burnt Waymos and shattered glass can be replaced, rebuilt. Objects are not people, and it's overwhelmingly cops that have been damaging people.
I am not advocating for violence, but I think every person understands the innate urge to rebel against oppression. Whatever shape that takes, people that are not putting their bodies on the line do not get to tell those that are what to do.
There are also people who have no choice in the matter, their bodies are on the line either way because state agents have orders to take control of them in some way or other. Before you think to tell people what they should or should not do, take a moment to ask yourself how it would sound if it was you and yours in that position.
Beyond that, expecting that years of passivity will somehow pay off is absurd. If it worked, the situation would be getting better over time, not worse. This regime is going to escalate no matter what, it's already deporting dissidents and shipping innocent people off to foreign concentration camps. They're already actively trying to revoke citizenship from all sorts, unilaterally criminalizing completely law-abiding people overnight.
We know where this road leads. Whatever actions people take to shut it down, history will be on their side.
Let me break it down very simply:
Did you ever get bullied in school or see a bully terrorize other kids?
Was the bully stopped by appeals for him to act nicely? Was the bully stopped by the administration? Did the bully stop beating a kid when the kid didn't fight back?
Yes the bully will beat another kid and then cry wolf when the kid defends itself. However the administration full well knows who the bully is and decides to side with him anyways.
If you fight back you might loose. If you don't fight back you will definitely loose.
Not OP but for your second bullet, the idea is that we're getting the insurrection act or martial law pretty much no matter what because trump wants it and is looking for any excuse.
So, if it's going to happen anyway, why not do it on our terms?
That's a pretty important point, I think, thank-you.
No it's not a beacon, its cancer, a blight, spreading itself like a corruptuous disease on this world. It can't die soon enough since for many millions it is already too late.
Death to Seppoland, the Occupation Regime of West Palestine and Genocidesmany
Sometimes a beacon is dim. A beacon doesn't need to be perfect to do it's job. I hear you
Please readsettlers.org
Im reading it now, thank you.
First you have to get mad.
There's a much better reason to not be violent: So that you can get more people onto the streets. Figures that most people don't fancy dodging burning trash cans and you want everybody on the streets, not just your polycule. People need to feel like they're safe at the protest, the only danger there is is coming from the state.
That's a nice argument when the cops are not yet shooting random passerbys with rubber bullets and teargas. People don't stay home because they're afraid of other protestors.
I actually did. I've got an ex girlfriend i really don't want to run into.
Edit: look, if i remind her i exist she might mention how bad i am in bed, and then id make it into some history books. No thank you.
I hope you're not sincerely avoiding protests because of an ex. I can't laugh about exes and bad sex when I live in fear every day that ICE might snatch my partner off the street.
It's not a bad joke on its own, it's just in poor taste considering the state of things. The fear of Trump's dictatorship far outweighs the fear of running into even my most abusive ex.
So, whether or not this is a bit¹: the potential harm from edgy jokes is the same as the harm from dystopian fiction warning us about bad things that could happen. The potential for harm is that dipshits with zero self awareness and less media literacy will just blindly copy the thing. Like how siliconbvalley billionaires have tried to do almost literally every part of 'snow crash'.
If my character in the bit is shitty and not someone you would want to be at any point, or I'm on a server defederated from beehaw and world; this danger is mitigated.
And for those who have actually been through shit, your criticism here comes off as privileged, colonizing, and completely misunderstanding what humor is, because you've never had a use for it. It comes off as 'if i laugh at myself i am lesser, because the only way i know how to laugh is by sorting groups and affirming my group's position at the top'. And thats a really bad fucking look. Im not saying shut up; im saying read up on the topic.
¹just for you; I'm never gonna tell now.
That's what you take away here? That I'm some privileged, humorless bigot that's never "been through shit"?
You gathered that from one comment. I guess all the 900-ish comments I've made here on Lemmy, many of which discuss my experiences with "shit" like disabilities, homelessness, and sexism just don't factor in. I make no secret of my struggles, past and present, and I genuinely fear my partner getting kidnapped and tortured in El Salvador. I was born with some kinds of targets already on my back, but under this administration, my partner's targets shine brighter than mine.
Of course, I didn't expect you to know any of that, in the same way I wouldn't expect you to know much of anything about a stranger after one interaction with them.
But it doesn't matter, as I can see I'm onboard the Lemmy Downvote train. So choo-choo, motherfuckers.
There's a massive fucking vibe difference between a crowd taking cover behind whatever is at hand and one setting fire to shit and throwing back stones is all I'm saying. Be the former vibe. Stones aren't going to stop them. Assault rifles and tanks wouldn't stop them. Pining for escalation hands them excuses on a platter for no strategic gain whatsoever, it's pissing in the wind. The only law you should be breaking is refusing to follow a dispersal order, or at least take your sweet time with it, everything else is fedposting.
And that's the one they point to as an excuse to start shooting, you shitlib.
They don't need an excuse. They will escalate it long before anyone in the street does. It's also wild to me that 'throwing stones' is somehow seen as more violent than literal fucking munitions and chemical weapons. "Just stand there and let them shoot at you" is quite a take from someone who has clearly never been shot at by fascists in riot gear.
If this were an ordinary liberal riot guard we might be able to count on deescalation, but as libs have so been eager to point out when votemaxxing online, this isn't an ordinary liberal riot guard. Either bend over and spread for the next phase of american fascist policing or shut the fuck up about how people are choosing to resist it. Communities are fighting against unaccountable and un-identifiable gestapo pigs blackbagging innocent children - don't concern troll us about deescalation.
To shoot? No. To justify themselves in the media, in the public eye? Yes.
It's not. That's as much a shitlib take as "police violence isn't violence because it's state violence".
But it's the perception that exists among the population, you're not going to change it by throwing stones.
You know what people did to protect Jews from the Gestapo? Hide them. You can't protect them by throwing stones for the simple reason that police dgaf when they're hit by stones, they'll just blackbag you alongside.
Look there's exactly one thing I'm saying here: Act strategically. I'm not arguing against violence because it's evil -- at most, violence is unaesthetic. I'm arguing against it because, unless you start an actual insurrection with plans to take on and take out the military, it's ineffective. Just because your pigs are worse than what we're dealing with over here doesn't mean that lashing out at them suddenly becomes good praxis. You're there to have an effect, not to blow off steam.
They’re already shooting.
No they don't. Just look at how often they use footage from completely unrelated events in their coverage. Anyone with even a slight predilection against protestors or a law enforcement bias will accept any willful misrepresentation as 'aesthetic' and condemn the whole group regardless.
Nothing the protestors actually do will move the needle - it's the extreme overreaction of the fed that will.
Only after the Nazis had actually banned extra-party protests and clamped down on all opposition, and only after they had already carted away several million jews and political opponents off to concentration camps. You want to wait that long do something? Be my guest.
The goal of most rebellions isn't to take control of the reigns of power - the goal is to make it so costly to suppress that the state is forced to cut their loss, or else risk the resistance spreading. There is no version of resisting a fascist movement in the US that involves armed militias overpowering federal forces. Liberals are desperate to maintain the illusion of democracy by simply resisting at the fringes - if they don't piss Trump off too much, then maybe there will still be enough democracy left for them to vote him away without any real conflict! What a wonderful fantasy that is.
Liberals need to pick a lane - either trump is a dictator who must be removed before he solidifies his hold on power, or we need to conduct ourselves until the midterms so that we can vote our way out. It can't be both.
Who said anything about waiting? Stop posting and organise that shit. Don't look at me I'm on the other side of the Atlantic.
Please look up opinion polling after the Kent State Massacre: It took years for public opinion to shift away from "the National Guard did nothing wrong". For what you say to occur the overreaction has to not just be extreme, it also has to be obvious -- like the Aussie journalist which got shot, that's a good video. Things don't become more obviously an overreaction when cars are burning and shopfronts are deglassed.
I wouldn't argue for either. Both are unrealistic for various reasons and the latter isn't a good in itself. What you want to do is obstruct the fuck out the feds so they fall on their face, that's best done on a level of state and lower administrations. California isn't cooperating with ICE so make sure to have the state's back. Yes, I, an anarchist is saying "have the state's back", fascism is too large a threat to risk over feelings of disgust regarding liberal democracy. Last thing you want is the Governor seeing himself in a situation where he has to ask the feds to intervene to keep (a semblance of) order instead of being able to say "fuck off feds we got this".
Most of us do both.
Yup, and with any luck Trump will continue with the lack of subtlety.
Those things happen every day in the US. Hell, some sports fans will flip cars after a moderately good football game. Corporatized media will find footage of those things regardless of what the actual protestors are doing, and implicate them with it. Even when counterprotestors are actually assaulting peaceful protestors, Fox news and their many subsidiary channels will find the one shot with an angry exchange that paints the picture and use it to implicate the entire movement. And when they do, liberals will be right there to wag their fingers.
The good news is that Trump is such a dipshit that he'll send in fucking tanks for just about any goddamned reason, and those are really fucking hard to hide and even harder to justify with a few broken windows and lots of unarmed protestors.
Yea, this is what i'm referring to by saying 'middling around the fringes'. There is no amount of legalese that will slow down an actual authoritarian. You can't run around screaming that he's going to fucking end democracy and then strategize on how to bury him in legal threats. Either he's a dictator or he can be obstructed by judicial paperwork. You can't have a dictator that politely complies with the judiciary, that's what makes them a dictator.
This is how liberals end up collaborating with fascists: they are so uncomfortable with extralegal resistance that they delude themselves into a belief that working within the structures that are actively being dismantled is the 'only realistic way' to resist against it. What happens when we get to the 'outlawing of rival political parties' part of fascism? We've already crossed over the 'no due process for criminals' line, how many more core democratic foundations do we have to lose before it's game over?
Not everyone can or should be in black bloc sabotaging ICE vehicles, but pretending as if the usual checks and balances are still functioning is willful ignorance.
People usually only remember part of Thomas Jefferson’s quote: “The tree of liberty must be refreshed with the blood of tyrants.”
The full thing goes “The tree of liberty must be refreshed with the blood of patriots and tyrants.”
This is class warfare. We all need to start getting used to the fact that many of us patriots are going to die fighting this fascist machine.
I know, right? These fuvking anachronistic world war mashup re-enacters, fucking tear gassing and shooting random people as they get so mean towards the cops!
This is like saying, "If you're going to be wrongly accused of a crime, you may as well commit it"...just to prove them right?
Not sure how this advice does anything other than give Trump exactly what he wants.
Look if I was gonna be falsely accused of assault and knew for a fact that there was nothing I could do about it in court I might beat the shit out of the accusor. Trump is gonna get what he wants whether we like it or not. Fascism is inevitable and Trump is only a symptom of that process
It's not inevitable.
But it will be hard to break it. People need to act, stand up, make their voices heard and make being on the MAGA side seem petty, childish and weak.
Break their fantasy of power and ideals.
Don't do the thing you want to do to try to stop the bad thing happening, because they'll use your wanting to stop it as justification whether or not you act on it. Better to just sit back and let it happen, right?
(It's already happened though, since he's now federalising national guard against State's wishes it's basically now military dictatorship, the rope just hasn't finishing tightening yet.)
No one is saying, "just sit back and let it happen". Only, "Don't do exactly what they want, and call it "resistance"".
Any form of resistance will be made an excuse.
And no resistance won't stop them.
Support needs to be sapped, and most importantly at this point work on emotionally connecting with soldiers so that guardsmen are more loyal to ideals and citizenry than the nutter-in-chief.
If you really believe that, then you must know that attacking them isn't going to get you there. They need to see that what they're doing is wrong. And the only way to do that, is to make sure their orders are unjustified.
I think there's a lot of space between peaceful and don't directly attack the guardsmen.
Maybe I've been too inundated by people who think graffiti or smashing windows of targeted buildings is "too violent"... Meanwhile guardsmen are already shooting reporters and protesters without provocation.
Takes a lot of balls to go full on MLK and hope that the forces brutalise kids... But maybe that's what is needed. Then again, MLK could hope that federal forces would step in to keep the peace, not push for escalation and killings.
At this point, at least they're still using rubber bullets. But, that's the entire plan at the moment...keep shooting non-lethal rounds until someone shoots back.
Then...the safeties come off, and a lot of people die. It all depends on how long the protesters can keep their shit together before someone changes the nature of the conflict.
Right now, most of those soldiers are not going to be ok shooting civilians. But the instant they're getting shot at, there are no civilians anymore. Just targets.
There needs to be a consideration of empathy on the other side. If the oppressors lack empathy and escalates everything, everything you do will be "doing exactly what they want."
I disagree. Keeping these protest peaceful, is exactly what the Trump administration doesn't want. If they are looking for a justification to escalate the situation, then NOT giving them one, makes it that much harder for them to accomplish their objectives. Every single opportunity to prove them wrong about what they are doing, is a victory. It needs to be demonstrated at every turn.
"I can't believe no one is doing anything!! I'll post on twitter where real change happens!"
Does anyone think that Donnie is going to be sad if someone burns a truck? Or a Home Depot? Or an ICE officer?
Don't follow the provocateurs in pointless vandalism. Protest, and save the rocks to throw at the people who are directly responsible for this blatant fascism.
A burnt truck cant be used to haul people away. An injured ICE goon can't kidnap people.
Not breaking random things is important. But the goons and their weapons and tools absolutely need to be broken.
True. But they have more trucks. And if you arrest/deport/shoot the people burning the trucks, there's a chance that the trucks will eventually stop being burnt. Donnie would love to escalate this all the way to a fascist racist police state.
Grandma's blocking ICE arrests gives off real tank-man-of-Tiananmen-square energy, and it's hard to justify shooting "normal americans"without looking like the fascist goons that they are. But, shooting a guy waving a Mexican flag while looting and buring down a shoe store ... some might agree that it's justified to stop this "foreign invasion" with military force.
I can't blame people for wanting to stop ICE from kidnapping innocent people. But, we don't want to serve up justifications on a silver platter either.
LAPD shot journalists who were providing live coverage of the protests.
We are well past the point. Also serve justification for who? The notion not to serve them justifications implies that there is a sizable part of the population that would take to the streets if they see unjust police violence. We already have the unjust police violence. Now is the time to take to the streets. And taking to the streets means to not obey the dispersal orders and curfews that will be placed. Because then the protests will not be any threat to the government.
I know this is an anarchy community, but peaceful protests have been successful before. And the thing is, if the authority literally fired and killed a civilian, the authority will immediately lose legitimacy. This is what protestors are railing on. They are like "what are you gonna do kill us?"
Their goal is your death or pacification, there's no reason to do their job for them. If you want to see the disgusting depths pacifism goes to, look at this gandhi quote:
Gross.
No one said anything about voting. But if peaceful means does not work, let them fire the first shot and then fire back.
If you let them fire first, then you die. Why let them harm you at all?
This is kind of pointless because I know you don't have the patience to read an article anyway.
You do realise that firing at the authorities first will give them perfect justification and legitimises their use of force? This is literally what Trump is waiting for. It is a blinking game and see who blinks first. You don't give the ruling corrupt power any more legitimacy.
How does letting a cop shoot you, give you "legitimacy"? Self-defense is not some corrupting infectious disease, and a refusal to be bullied is honorable.
I know you won't read this, but at least others should know the religious basis of these pacifist arguments:
So far no police or soldiers are carrying lethal weapons. But once they do...
Again, Trump is looking for reason to use lethal force. As soon as any of the protestors shoot the police, he can invoke the Insurrection Act as per authority given to him by the constitution. You or anyone don't want to give him reason to do that and legitimise his deployment of force. If it comes to it, YOU wait to be given the reason to use violence on authority. You gain the moral high ground for not provoking lethal violence in the first place. Therefore, it is not pacifism. It's not pacifism to do peaceful demonstrations. Pacifism implies being completely passive and completely rejecting violence in any shape or form. It is not pacifist to both peacefully protest but being prepared if violence erupts. Violence is only the last resort. There is a reason why the court favours someone who was the first to be physically assaulted, despite that person being a complete jerk for being verbally abusive in the first place. You would to prefer to be the person provoked to self-defense, than be the provoker to someone. You lose the public court of opinion for provoking physical violence first. That public court of opinion will shift to the side of Trump if any of the protestors shoot and kill the police or soldiers.
Talk about completely not grasping the situation
Well, are you willing to go to LA and draw the first blood? Are you even aware what Insurrection and Posse comitatus acts are?
Yes. Too bad it would be for naught because people like you are afraid to hurt Nazi feelings.
![(https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/c2f864e5-c952-4814-bd43-6b01ea374c0c.jpeg)]
Civilians have been teargassed and kettled before while peacefully protesting - recently - and the public reaction to it was largely either 'meh' or 'oh no I feel sorry for the poor people who live near those violent riots'.
The tear gassing isn't new. What's new is deploying the national guards and marines. And what would be newer is if the national guards and the marines killed a civilian. Trump is escalating and trying to provoke Los Angelinos to justify the use of force.
It turns out you can just kill protestors.
Well, it did propel further the withdrawal of US from Vietnam. It further de-legitimised US involvement in Vietnam by the public.
This time is far more consequential and existential though. If the guardsmen and marines killed any of LA civilians, it could cause a civil war and perhaps the collapse of the United States as we know it. But you still would not want to be the one to fire the first shot and give Trump legitimacy.
The Vietnamese people themselves did that. The US anti-war protest movement was a great thing, but the Vietnamese people defeated the US empire through their own efforts.
Of course, but the American public's lost appetite to prosecute the war is what pushed Washington to pull out completely. After all, American troops actually killed more North Vietnamese soldiers than vice versa; but a North Vietnamese official declared "that may be the case, but that is irrelevant". War is as much fueled by the will to fight as the number of bodies the belligerents throw into the battlefield. A country could attain more casualties than the opponent and still not lose the will to fight (like the USSR during World War 2).
Yeah. They don't care about legitimacy, they will literally kill everyone if they think they an replace you with robots.
You do realise that we are still far away from having robots to replace humans?
Okay, but are we talking about right now Americans being replaced at any second? And how efficient are the robots doing their jobs overall? Can they fix themselves if a small screw got stuck in small nooks and crannies in the conveyor belt? Can they verify that the alarm is genuine and not false alarm? Can this be rolled out en masse?
There is a reason that robots are still not as prevalent than one would expect, because they lack the human dexterity needed for most jobs. Also, this is a reason that the fascist American government at the moment still believe working in factories is the future.
God forbid a woman kills a few fascists.
The Russian government is a fascist one. Putin is a fascist dictator. This poster is most probably a leftist. You are not a leftist.
No badjacketing
Robbing stores isn't good PR. I'm working with the right to do positive PR for you guys if you ever do anything to a cop or to cop property. I'm pretty good at selling it "as long as they aren't harming peaceful citizens or local businesses. Who the fuck cares if zog has a bad day." Then you have people looting stores and I can't run PR for you on the right. And they look at the news and say, "See, getting the illegals out of here was a good idea."
When people steal stuff the whole movement, even the people not doing it, just becomes propaganda for the other side. What would be increadable PR is if crowds physically prevented looting.
Maybe we should stop pandering to people who are going to hate us no matter what we do. This is open class warfare, we are waaayyyy past PR battles.
For real! In this goddam hellscape we live in, these libs want to shame us for enjoying even the barest symbolic victories. Cop car on fire is objectively cool, no matter what any liberal killjoy scold says.
It is objectively cool. But harming mom and pop businesses gets really hard to sell as cool. Trying to convince people outside of your political silo that burning cop cars is cool is difficult but possible. The other one isn't.
Do we still have "mom and pop businesses" in major city downtown locations? Anyone who doesn't think burning cop cars is neat, isn't someone I'm going to be able to have a productive conversation with. They need to wake the fuck up about what the police and military do more than I need to handwring about the optics of rebellion.
Yes. But it isn't robbing mom and pop stores.
There's nothing wrong with human rights but how does harming the lives of innocent people help human rights? It makes it hard to sell to other people you are serious about human rights. Instead you just look like a problem. A problem that motivates leaning on fascism. So when stores get robbed you are making negative ground with anything you want to do.
In a system that values profits over peoples' lives, stealing is a morally good act.
Well you loose the political game when it ends up on TV. You are making negative progress with your political goals because the political will to get rid of what are perceived as "lawless illegals" only increases.
Is it morally right to loose? Because this is how you loose.
Won't someone PLEASE think of the inanimate objects?!
During news coverage of hurricane Helena, when marganalized people availed themselves of foodstuffs, they were called "looters," and when whites did it, they were brave who were caring for their families. I'm not talking about those who took other things, but then, why shouldn't someone have a tv or radio to listen to news?
Put your money where your mouth is, random writer with an actor for an avatar. Pretty easy to advocate for mass violence on a blog.
Advice acknowledged, random anonymous lemming.
Oh you're the minor internet celebrity Nina Illingsworth? Wow, thank you for acknowledging me
I am not, but good that you acknowledge that this person is actual eponymous, even though you're being a creepy little shit about it.
Looking into the source when someone advocates for mass violence is creepy to you?
Her Patreon has a fuckin Dynasty Warriors screenshot for an icon. Convince me this person is worth listening to because from here, she's extremely online.
Look at this motherfucker sitting anonymously while literal jackbooted fascist shit is happening and wringing their hands because someone said that you cannot ever be peaceful enough for fascists and asking them to postt some crimin' for their own evaluation. 'Fuck outa here, shitlib.
Lmao
Either that or I'm annoyed by the stupid idea from a wannabe internet celebrity getting posted everywhere like it's profound or important because it's written in a kind of funny edgelord style.
Based on this reply, I would believe that you're actually "Nina"
disengage
How does anonymity invalidate their statements?
It doesn't. But the movie star/video game PFPs and Tumblr rant style of writing heavily give the impression that they're a dime-a-dozen blogger with little real world experience because they're terminally online
What gives you the impression that she isn't?
Figured she'd say something if she's so passionate about being there. I looked at her website and just see a blog - which to be clear, I think is fine. We need writers. What we don't need need is an armchair warrior telling everyone they're doing it wrong in an finger-blaming rant. It's like she just wants something to write about
Now as for the actual content of the message, the dumb hyperbole in her second paragraph makes it obvious she's just ranting and doesn't actually have a plan. She's got a chip on her shoulder but if she thinks she's so smart, she should lead the charge...not grumble from the back of the room.
idk fam, posting online about going to protests you're specifically saying shouldn't be peaceful seems like it'd be questionable opsec tbh
Sure. And telling the people "on your side" to start killing cops seems like questionable advice - almost like they have a different goal in mind.
Go on. Say what you're implying, don't be a coward about it.
Sure, I'll say it nice and slow so you can understand: The majority of violence at antifa protests were from cops in antifa clothes. How dare I question the motives here, right?
You're saying I'm a creepy little shit for wanting to verify that this person wasn't some infiltrator riling people up. Sounds like you'd follow anyone if they used some angry words in their post.
Just as expected, not just a shitlib, but a copjacketing shitlib. So now you can fuck off properly.