Germany is now deporting pro-Palestine EU citizens. This is a chilling new step | Hanno Hauenstein
Germany has recently taken a chilling new step, signalling its willingness to use political views as grounds to curb migration. Authorities are now moving to deport foreign nationals for participating in pro-Palestine actions. As I reported this week in the Intercept, four people in Berlin – three EU citizens and one US citizen – are set to be deported over their involvement in demonstrations against Israel’s war on Gaza. None of the four have been convicted of a crime, and yet the authorities are seeking to simply throw them out of the country.
The accusations against them include aggravated breach of the peace and obstruction of a police arrest. Reports from last year suggest that one of the actions they were alleged to have been involved in included breaking into a university building and threatening people with objects that could have been used as potential weapons.
But the deportation orders go further. They cite a broader list of alleged behaviours: chanting slogans such as “Free Gaza” and “From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free”, joining road blockades (a tactic frequently used by climate activists), and calling a police officer a “fascist”. Read closely, the real charge appears to be something more basic: protest itself.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2025/apr/03/germany-deporting-pro-palestine-eu-citizens-chilling-new-stepOpen linkView original on sh.itjust.works
„It’s not holocaust when brown people are dying”
~white people
*some white people
Isn’t putting a whole race in one category some of what the issue is in this world? Plenty of people disapprove of the inhumane shit going on but there’s only so much that can be done by the small numbers of those in the lower class. If it’s so easy to fix all this, why are you sitting on your computer rather than being out there trying to do something about it?
I’ve protested and spread the word, doing everything short of picking up a gun and going after politicians (which would surely end up with me dead for naught). Tired of seeing this shit.
#notallmen vibes
How can Germany "deport" an EU citizen? Is there any way for them to block an EU citizen from coming back into Germany?
It can't, municipalities and states can, and the EU law allowing for this requires showing they're a threat to public safety (which is why it's not a federal matter the federation doesn't do public safety). The Berlin state government wants to expel some people, so far no other state has made similar moves, and it's very questionable whether Berlin courts will let them do it. And then there's federal courts. And then the ECJ.
Yeah, that's the craziest thing. EU citizenship means you have freedom to be in any EU country. There is no "deporting" a citizen of the EU if you're a country in the EU.
Yet here we are...
Yeah that is why "deportation" is the wrong word being used... It is an "opinion" piece from one Berlin based journalist, that obviously lacks some legal details or is trying to use a catchy headline. I especially like it when the article says the used "objects that could have been used as potential weapons". It was fucking AXES they used and obviously the Uni employees were horrified when it happened. Not saying that is right to restrict EU citizens movement in such cases. I'd prefer a proper trial before that happens but they certainly didn't behave very well.
In case of the US citizen I guess you could call it a deportation/expulsion.
Some translated legal background for you guys: Strictly speaking, in the case of EU citizens, this is not referred to as expulsion/deportation, but as loss of freedom of movement. ‘EU citizens entitled to freedom of movement can lose their right of residence for reasons of public order, security or health,’ according to the website of the Federal Ministry of the Interior.
Particularly stringent conditions apply to the loss of residence on grounds of public order or security. ‘There must be an actual and sufficiently serious threat to public order or security that affects a fundamental interest of society. This threat must be based on the personal behaviour of the EU citizen,’ writes the Federal Ministry of the Interior on its website.
People who do not come from the EU are referred to as deportees. This is the case here for one person. If a person from a third country jeopardises public safety and order, the free democratic basic order or other significant public interests through their stay, they can be expelled.
Have a half-dozen men with guns grab the person, shove them into the back of a squad car, drive them to a jail, make them wait in the jail until transport can be arranged, drag them to a plane, force them onto the plane, fly the plane to an Israeli-occupied territory, kick the person out of the plane into the hands of some genocidal Israeli lunatics, and leave.
Tear up their travel documents, for starters. Sending them to a country where they are at extreme risk of permanent arrest, torture, and execution also works.
Ok so just like in America
Not at all, nothing in the post you replied to is actually true.
None of that is true. There is due process, no hit squads. They will have the ability to bring this to court (a process which they already started). And deportation would happen to where they come from, so other EU countries and the US.
It really blows my mind. Masha Gessen, Nancy Fraser, Yuval Abraham, Omri Boehm, and also others not mentioned in the article. Who the fuck gave Germany the right to decide who is a good pro-Israel Jew and who is a bad anti-Israel Jew? Germany of all countries, being in the business of labelling Jewish people as acceptable and unacceptable. The fucking nerve on these people.
Germany has public broadcasters, which are controlled by councils made up of representatives of different groups like chourches, unions, enviormental groups and well Jews. That was part of trying to make sure that the Holocaust does not happen again. However the Jewish community in Germany is rather small, due to the Holocaust at about 100k. That group is also unlike American Jews extremly pro Israel. That is why anti zionist Jews are such a problem within Germany. So the Israel lobby works hard to get rid of them.
What the actual fuck is going on with humanity?
People who want extreme 'order' are really good at organizing and fund raising, and breaking the law and daring the rest of us to do something about it. People who like making sure everyone has rights and those rights are protected aren't.
I am not even sure why as a trans person one wants to support an islamic-extremist and authoritarian organization like Hamas. Honestly, I dont get it.
I mean yeah I dont want to make a case of supporting the other side either. But just think would rather wants you dead, Israel, or Hamas? I think I pretty much know the answer.
Yes, you know an answer to irrelevant question. Good job
Is it irrelevant though?
Lets take it to an extreme: Imagine in Gaza there would be a Nazi regime. Nazis who hate trans people and want them dead. Nazis living there with their families, innocent children etc.
I Understand that it would be worthwhile stopping war actions on all those innocent souls, but would I actively advocate for the Nazi party ruling this imaginary Gaza strip? Certainly not.
Hence, get your act together. Support an end of the war on Gaza, support innocent people. Dont support Hamas!
Supporting innocent people would be putting pressure on Izrael to stop killing medics. At the moment it's Nazis against Nazis. It's not black and white it's black and a darker shade of black. If your opponent starts doing war crimes you don't kill members of red cross.
Fucking seriously. Just how much of the world has always been a bunch of hateful shits who only needed a bigger asshole to kick things off?
I'm EU citizen, I go into Germany if I so please. I'll do it and I'll do it again.
Germany… forever pro-genocide cvnts
Name a more dynamic duo: German 🤝 being on the wrong side of history
Bro defends a terrorist organisation that wants to eradicate an entire religion and thinks he's on the right side.
I fucking can't lmao.
Everything you said is false.
Oh really?
Hamas literally made a "recruitment video" about digging up water pipes: https://youtu.be/04NB27x138Y
The part where israel warns the population is true tho - confirmed by many people who literally got these messages on their phones. A german journalist even showed the message he received while being near gaza. Also, why do you think videos exist where the cam is lying on the ground BEFORE the attack hits? Because they know in advance.
The part of "forced their own people to stay in buildings that are bombed" I can't proof tbf - however, there are big indicators like people showing signs of restraint in bombed buildings, indicating they were tied to a chair or something similar to avoid escape. Hamas traditionally haven't given a rats ass about the population, so this isn't even far fetched and a realistic scenario.
Also false. Astounding how every single thing Zionists say is a lie you can debunk in one google search. Yet they keep saying it.
Ehi ehi! I found the zionazi!! How does it feel to swallow this much bibi cum and be satisfied? Did you say thank you to the IDF for killing kids and setting hospitals on fire?
“We are so moral and everyone hates us. Are these rocks khamas???? I think someone need to change my diaper.”
do you want me to send you some israeli citizens saying this? Cause the internet is full of these.
The hamas is using civilian buildings like hospitals, schools etc as bases. So yes - they are being bombed.
Reading the rest of your brainfart, any discussion with you is futile tho.
Proof?
I bet you keep these thoughts for you in the real world (or you live in colonised Palestine). Why don't you go out in a bar and film yourself shouting this? Show us your guts big boy.
Also because you are so fucking stupid that you don’t know that IDF is actually using human shields (do you wanna see some photo of the pigs?).
Also also because if THE hamas (😂) was hiding in a Israeli hospital (this is fake news, its not reality you stupid moron) means we can bomb an Israeli hospital and kill israeli kids no? Right? It would be okay for you right? The hamas is hiding!
Your high school deserved to be bombed, since it had an ROTC unit in it.
They wouldn't need "free" water, electricity, or go to Israel for a job if they had autonomy.
Gaza has had autonomy for 20 years.
Gaza has less autonomy than Belarus.
Hmm... Perhaps you're ignorant of the definition of "genocide". Allow me to enlighten you:
Genocide (noun):
The systematic and widespread extermination or attempted extermination of a national, racial, religious, or ethnic group.
The systematic killing of a racial or cultural group.
The systematic killing of substantial numbers of people on the basis of ethnicity, religion, political opinion, social status, or other particularity.
(source: wordlink).
(source: Merriam-Webster).
Genocide is violence that targets individuals because of their membership of a group and aims at the destruction of a people.[a][1] Raphael Lemkin, who first coined the term, defined genocide as "the destruction of a nation or of an ethnic group" by means such as "the disintegration of [its] political and social institutions, of [its] culture, language, national feelings, religion, and [its] economic existence".[2]
(source: Wikipedia)
I hope that clears a few things up.
By the IDF's own numbers, the IDF has a worse civilian collateral damage rate than Hamas.
Hamas has zero tanks, zero airplanes, zero competence. I'm pretty sure they'd lose a war to a number of New World Cartels. That's not really a real comparison.
Yeah fr these four dudes were not "Pro-Palestine Protestors" they were threatening people with axes, calling police fascists, and chanting "from the river to the sea". That was terrorism, and they're bejng let off incredibly lightly.
"From the river to the sea" is very naughty. It means they want to kick out our favorite ethnostate and then where would we ship all the bombs we get from subsidising our weapons industry.
We really have to deport those terrorists. They remind me I'm funding a genocide and I feel bad about myself now. Horrible people, really.
Every single state solution is a genocide solution.
Every two-state solution is aimed at perpetuating at least one ethnostate. It's basically segregation. Were you also in favor of having two states in south africa? One black and one white? How does that sound?
Anyway a two state solution can be envision as long as israel isn't one of them. Country who commited genocide don't have the right to exist. We could do palestine-jordan for example, or gaza-jerusalem.
Nope...I can only handle one Western country going down the batshit stupidity rabbit hole at a time.
fascism in Germany! now I've heard everything
No, Germany, bad Germany. You've done this twice already, haven't you fucking learned?
The article seems to say very little about the 4 people. What it does say is pretty light on facts about what they were involved in. Were they vistors? Students? Do they live in Germany? Do they work there? Have families there? Some factual context would be nice. And how/when were they arrested?
The author of the article links to their own earlier article in the Intercept that goes in detail: https://theintercept.com/2025/03/31/germany-gaza-protesters-deport/
What kind of fascist world are we living in that "insulting a police officer" can be a crime?
In Germany it is generally a crime to insult anyone.
I think that itself is not bad. What makes it bad is the general tendency of German police to only follow up on that when it affects someone with power (politician, police, etc.). And of course in this case that they punished someone for it while they were not able to prove it in court.
I don't know, I think that's pushing too far personally. In Australia it's against the law to insult someone based off things like race, gender or things of that nature. That is super important IMO. But I could call a cop a pig and get away with it.
Which is almost always the case with such laws. Never enforced unless it's simple or if it's a person of influence, solved no matter how complicated within a few days. Solved might even be a bit of a stretch here too though.
Thanks. A few follow up questions. First, who is causing the deportation attempt. In the US we know these all come top down from trump. But is the executive branch in germany also in the hands of anti-immigration management? And is that the executive branch? Second, is guilt by association like this a thing for German citizens? And last, are these guys like university students? Or are they like tourist who came to protest or something? Thanks.
Are you asking me to play the role of a search engine for you? 😏
People have commented that there is a lot of misinformation out there on this. The best sources would be german sources probably. But I don’t know which sources in germany (or even the EU) are reliable. I know the US sources are NOT reliable on this subject.
However, the known record of German institutions cracking down on dissident Jewish voices(*) is a very good indicator of what's going on here. Now, I'm not saying that any of these people are little saints, or that they did nothing questionable, but that there is a systemic bias in Germany against pro-Palestinian activism. Which is the more burning point than counting pennies of the particularities of each individual legal case.
(*) such as Masha Gessen, Nancy Fraser, Yuval Abraham, Omri Boehm and others.
So.. me being a yankee... why is that? In the US it has to do with money of course. Selling weapons to Isreal makes a lot of people rich. But also I have been told that a lot of the power people in our democratic party are Jewish or something.
They actually did more:
German source https://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article255845278/Wegen-Stuermung-von-Uni-Gebaeude-Erstmals-Exempel-statuiert-Berlin-plant-Ausweisung-auslaendischer-Israel-Hasser.html
As I mentioned under your other comment quoting this article:
They only describe what was done at the protests in general. I did not see any mention of the police even accusing them of being directly involved in mayor crimes, let alone proving it.
Yes, it is not ok, to vandalize the university and threaten people with axes. And those who did that should be persecuted for it. But it is not ok to "make an example" of someone who just participated in the same protest.
Thats true
Then take your posts down and stop spreading misinfo.
After Reading additional sources it seems very much certain that they were not just some innocent bystanders:
„The masked individuals“ refers to those with the axes.
(https://www.zeit.de/campus/2025-04/abschiebung-berlin-propaleastina-protest-usa)
Hence, I kindly decline your request. Obviously, I agree that there should be strong evidence for all of this. Lets see if they have any.
Can't read German. Is the article about how the group they were allegedly with did things? Because the article I linked to says they were targeted by association.
So, once a nazi, always a nazi, it seems. Carved Hakenkreuzes in foreheads for all of them.
European far right party in the back taking notes. 'Oh! So you can do that! Interesting.'
Germany repeating the history. Twice.
Or they just let you say what you want here.. unlike reddit where you catch a ban for upvoting violence.
You get banned for using sock puppets and insulting people while using them and saying that nowadays Germany and Israel should stop exist. That's nothing freedom of speech is for. (c/germany mod here)
Just want to state that, I will not reply to responses.
E: nowadays
So freedom of speech shouldn't allow people to say that apartheid South Africa shouldn't exist? That Nazi Germany shouldn't be allowed to exist?
I can remember when opposing apartheid ethnostates was the correct moral opinion.
What happened?
What makes Israel different?
Or are double standards proof of anti semitism only when they're negative?
EDIT: No response needed from moral cowards that would have protected apartheid South Africa, Belgium Congo, or Nazi Germany from criticism that they should not be allowed to exist.
You probably won't read this, but things like this are EXACTLY why freedom of speech exists.
You would have condemned Nat Turner and justified slavery.
There is a line between criticizing a state and arguing for its destruction/dehumanizing their people.
And tbh for my taste that line gets crossed to often in discussions about Israel and Palestine.
Some States do not deserve criticism.
Some States deserve destruction.
The south in the US civil war: deserved to be destroyed.
Nazi Germany: deserved to be destroyed.
All apartheid ethno-states: deserve to be destroyed.
You don't like that last one? Explain to me why Rhodesia should exist.
It seems to me that people that think arguing for the destruction of apartheid ethnostates is wrong think that way because they are racist against brown people.
I guess it’s less about freedom of speech and more about not giving fascistic governments ammunition to eradicate Lemmy and instances like this one.
I am 100% certain that intelligence agencies are already monitoring this social network. Going against the status quo necessitates restraint regarding certain thoughts.
I’d argue you can still say these things, but you need to word them wisely. We have to remember they have all the power from the medias to the judicial system.
It’s an era in which they can easily manufacture consent to do whatever they want against what is deem a threat.
Probably the only non-evil response.
It fails the 'all it takes for evil to win is for good men to do nothing' test.
It fails the 'If I was in Nazi Germany, I would have resisted' test.
But I suspect that that isn't the reason used by [email protected]
I would guess that he would have supported Rhodesia if his government said that to oppose them was racist against white people.
You edited to add 'nowadays'.
What a cowardly edit.
How was it okay to back the terrorist group ANC (Nelson Mandela was a convicted terrorist) and call for the fall of the Apartheid South African government in the 80's, yet not okay to call for the downfall of the Apartheid ethnostate that Nelson Mandela said the concentration camp they created (Gaza) was worse then any of the Bantustans created by Apartheid South Africa?
What Israel is doing is quantitatively worse then Apartheid South Africa. Why was calling for the end of that government okay?
$5 says you're too much of a coward to answer that question, even if only to yourself.
What?
Decentralization literally fights power centralization. There is no inherent position of power.
Anonymization has no talking point in the discussion of virtual internet power points. Only makes people more true to who they are.
Well, power didn't get to my head as a discord mod. I hate being called "boss" too.
Why bother with the half measures.
Just take the mask off and send them to the torture prison in El Salvador with all the other baselessly accused and right denied.
Germany is always on the wrong side of history.
Let's hope they go 0-3
The good side of history isn't really that of police states built on violence and blood. Germany government is not alone in supporting israel, pretty much every government rooted in authority share the same values.
Every government rooted in colonial violence, genocide and land theft, supports Israel.
And with Nazi Germany back, it's officialy over for this world. I don't see how weare supposed to fight back.
What people on this thread dont realize. It seems like what they did was quite more severe than just calling a police officer a fascist.
Translated:
Source (German)
That was a thing that happened at the protest in general. The state was not able to prove any of the now deported committed any crimes though (it even says so in your source and the part you quoted was about the protests in general, not the specific people about to be deported). That is one of the mayor reasons it is so problematic, just skipping presumption of innocence and letting the executive punish someone for an alleged crime without having to prove that crime.
Plus Welt is Springer media, so a pretty unreliable source.
::: spoiler Source the intercept:
Where are all the people cheering up for germany government preparing for war?
https://lemmy.world/post/27602242
Because the Russian Federation is a belligerent nation undermining EU institutions^1^, carrying out acts of sabotage on EU soil^2^, threatening nuclear war regularly^3^, threatening to reconquer EU member states^4^, and conducting genocide in Ukraine^5^.
And that is not to mention that actions taken by Kremlin assets in the US and Hungary.
1: https://foreignpolicy.com/2025/01/27/russia-putin-disinformation-hybrid-warfare-europe/
2: https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-war-europe-hybrid-campaign-d61887dd3ec6151adf354c5bd3e6273e
3: https://www.cnn.com/2024/09/25/europe/putin-nuclear-warns-west-missile-strikes-ukraine-intl-latam/index.html
4: https://www.newsweek.com/russia-zaporozhzhia-nato-invade-balitsky-1832236
5: https://news.un.org/en/story/2025/03/1161281
What answer are you reply to? If russia is shit and conducting a genocide is it ok to support one yourself and turn fascist?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_War_
Germany and europe are already armed to compete with russia and spend billions in war already.
Wat?
Supporting this because the same people were justifying and defending genocide.
This was maybe news a week ago but these four dudes are the exception that make the rule, tbh. Germany is cool.
EDIT: And they weren't protestors, they were holding axes, terrorizing university employees, chanting "from the river to the sea", and calling the police fascists.
I don't think you're going to convince many people with this.
Ever heard the term "presumption of innocence"?
Personally I think swinging axes around is pretty mild compared to all the war profiterring germany is doing, but even if it's true, they would have no issue establishing who's wrong in court.
But hey, I don't know why so many of yee are so bent on defending genocide.
In germany you are allowed to sue the state. If they felt like they were mistreated they would have already sued. No answer is also an answer
Lmao how naive can you be.
Technically, they are fighting it in court as of the article I read a while ago, but I don't think there is any judgement for or against them, yet.
Context for all the people who think this is some illegal bs: The group of protesters invaded a campus building, threatened staff, destroyed IT equipment, vandalised entire rooms and sprayed a hamas symbol on a wall
Yeah no let's tolerate this <3
https://de.euronews.com/2025/04/04/vier-palastina-aktivisten-droht-abschiebung-aus-deutschland
Being a part of a group that does this counts as well.
So arrest them and charge them with a crime?
Seeking asylum is not a ticket to wreak havoc at no risk
We're talking about citizens here, Chungus. Citizenship imparts a set of rights and responsibilities. It's not an easy thing to get. And we're not supposed to have different tiers of citizenship, where some citizens are more equal than others. Legally speaking, a naturalized citizen is supposed to be indistinguishable from a native born one.
But with actions like this, you are saying that isn't true. You can immigrate to a country, leave your whole family and life behind, and dedicate yourself fully and passionately to your new home. But it doesn't matter. You'll always be a second-class citizen. You will be treated differently by the legal system than a native born citizen. A native citizen won't be punished with exile for an act of petty vandalism, but you will be.
This shows that Germany has truly abandoned, at a fundamental level, the idea of equal justice under the law. It is once again going down the path of Fascism, where citizens receive different rights based on their ethnicity, religion, and immigration history. Once you start having different tiers of citizenship, with different levels of protection, things get dark very quickly.
And while the injustice starts with immigrants, once you've established the precedent that the protections of citizenship can be arbitrarily stripped from people based on political convenience and pressure? It's a short ride to the gas chambers. This is literally the legal foundation of the Holocaust.
You learned nothing from history, and you are doomed to repeat it.
If you can't even stay out of severe trouble and be grateful for the asylum you don't deserve your asylum spot. Many people are waiting to replace you.
Fuck israel, but this reads like rebranded antisemitism
It's not unfair to say, given recent events, that Israel has an unusual amount of influence over Western countries.
Nothing antisemitic about it. Israel has the means and capabilities of running influence operations in a way that Palestine doesn't.
"Jewish bankers", however, is a pretty common antisemitic trope so I don't think you're wrong about this specific commenter
Thankfully, those are just a very small percentage of protesters and the rest just want Israel to stop it's genocidal baby killing machine.
Germans never stopped being nazis. They just laid low until they found a new acceptable target.
Much of the mentality that enabled nazi Germany stayed. I'm half romanian, half german. I'm also part jewish. My ancestors died in the Holocaust. The German love for law and order scares me. They're overly obedient. Rarely walk out of line on serious matters. Mark my words, but someday the AfD will come to power, and they'll make use of all the tools the liberals implemented for them (suppressing protests, deporting people, cutting funding, and so on) and no one will bat an eye. Because a law is a law and therefore it is to be followed. Hopefully I'll manage to be far away by that time.
It's amazing what articulating your thoughts properly does for the votes. Maybe OP could learn a thing or two.
What mentality do you mean? The obedience? I feel like it’s more nuanced than that. Yes, following the rules everyone agreed on is lived in a rather inflexible way. If you think about it though, that’s democracy. It’s a commitment to the compromise. The unwritten contract between the majority and the minority. We recognize that the moment you start thinking "I don’t like this law, so I won’t follow it", democracy falls apart. People here want law and order even for laws they disagree with, because collectively that means that laws they agree with will also be followed by everyone.
There are limits though. While I agree that it’s scary to see the AFD become more and more popular, I disagree with your prediction. The idea of "never again" regarding the Holocaust guides every single part of public life. There are not many Germans who would say they are proud of their country. Only every two years, when Germany plays soccer in the international leagues, flying a German flag does not feel weird. Shame for your own country. That’s what Germans think everyone expects us to feel.
Strong military? We’re watching you. Your Great-Grandfather did what? Be sorry. Proud of Germany? How dare you.
The very first words of our constitution ("Human dignity is untouchable.") are a testament to the Holocaust. It’s an incredibly well chosen sentence that every single law is measured against. We know the entire world expects us to uphold this principle forever.
I am not arguing against the danger for democracy that the AFD poses. It’s very real. But in Germany we even have a law to actually make parties illegal that are against the constitution, most importantly the first sentence of it.
So, if Germans are obedient to the law, and the most important principle of our law makes anything even close to the Holocaust illegal, isn’t obedience a good thing then? The real question is, would Germans decide to just accept unconstitutional laws, or rather insist on upholding the constitution? I think the huge protests in the past months have made clear that many people are already standing up for the constitution. Not because they just follow rules blindly, but because they actually believe in the principles of compromise, democracy and dignity.
I'm sorry, but I used to think exactly like you many years ago.
Most German remembrance culture is overly superficial. Many German politicians hold straight up nazi views and they're still mingling around in the Bundestag. Some of them were caught on audio saying nazi shit. Others were involved with nazi organisations as youngsters. Many of them still attend "secret" nazi meetings and they're still mingling around with other politicians, even when it gets out to the press. Many of them hold up antisemitic, homophobic, transphobic, etc. views and they're still in positions of power. Most german billionaires have built their empires on top of the Holocaust. They're still around. No one dares to touch them. There's just some superficial "public outrage" from time to time and then the wheels of history just keep chugging on. Where's the remembrance culture for the millions of victims, most jewish, many queer, and political victims of the nazi regime?
Where was the remembrance culture for so many decades for the tens of thousands of queer victims of the Holocaust? Germany barely managed to pass a same-sex marriage bill a few years ago. Hell, even the US has done it before Germany did and they didn't have any concentration camps filled with homosexuals. So where's the remembrance culture?
Where's the human dignity when the greens and the social democrats are deporting people to Afghanistan, a country ruled by the taliban? Where's the human dignity when minorities are often the ones to get the short end of the stick at every interaction with state institutions? Where's the human dignity when minorities die in police custody and nothing ever comes out of it? Or when cops are involved en masse with nazi organisations? Where's the human dignity when people go out to protest and they get massively suppressed by police, often with liberal newspapers cheering it on?
It doesn't need to get to an industrialised killing of a group of people to be able to talk about "nazi like mentality".
Germany is more than happy to revoke citizenships nowadays for saying things the German state doesn't like. This is something unseen since nazi times. This is creating first and second class German citizens. Are you a so-called "bio deutsche"? Then you're free to do nazi shit, scream your hate-speech at immigrants, you'll mostly just get a fine and that's the end of the story. Are you a german with a second citizenship? Then go against the so called Staatsräson, criticise Israel publicly, and you'll have the entire might of the German state weighing down on you, having your citizenship revoked and ending up being deported. For a thought crime.
You either stay in line, or you're out of here, unworthy of being a citizen of this state just because you hold a different opinion.
And the thing about making parties illegal. That's hilarious. The AfD is saying shit nowadays that other parties ten/twenty years ago have gotten banned for. And they're doing it openly. And growing bolder, while the german society just stands there and looks.
Where is the human dignity when Germany makes a shitton of money by selling weapons that end up being used on fucking kids in Gaza? Where was the human dignity when Germany sold Saddam Hussein all the infrastructure he needed to build chemical weapons? Where was the love for law when the German chancellor ruled out an arrest for Netanyahu even though he has an international warrant?
When you answer all of those questions, then you'll know exactly how much Germany, as a state, cares about its own constitution. And yet the german people still follow the state's line. And that's all you need to know for the future.
I don't think we disagree on these points. I'll reply to more of your arguments once I have the time, but for now the main question I was asking myself was: How can we at the same time do our duty to Isreal as remembrance of the Holocaust, and actively oppose what Israel does right now? We would have to cross the line, and actually say things that everyone says we shouldn’t because of our history. My personal view is that our debts are paid, and we should go back to just rationally follow international law again. But it’s not an easy situation for our politicians, because most of the world still expects us to essentially not do that. What do you think could be the solution? In my opinion, essentially Germany has to emancipate it from its "Urschuld"
I would say that's a veneer of paternalism on top of a foundation of democracy.
The people's vote is never precise. It gives broad direction to those who govern. Politicians are trusted representatives of the people to act in their best interest, but they're not told precisely what to legislate on (unless you're Swiss and live in a direct democracy). They can inact things which are inline with the people's wishes, and they can get it wrong.
If the people behave as is the legislators are always right because they were placed there through a democratic process and there is never any push back, then they've surrendered a large part of their agency. If the people just obey rules without question, their government is now their fixed term authority figures. The government knows what is right, and the people should just follow along.
Talk to a Frenchman and he will be very clear that government serves the people. Not the other way around, and that sometimes you have to break the rules to remind those in government who is in charge. Bastille day is celebrated to make sure no one forgets.
I think Germany has the wrong mindset on this point.
Edit: I also think that "Never again" has become "Never again shall we see the Jewish persecuted" rather than "Never again shall we allow a holocaust to befall anyone". If Germany has truly learnt the lesson they should recognise that any country can perform evil. Even those that have been wronged in the past.
Oh I think in Germany it’s actually a huge problem that no one really feels like they are represented by anyone in the government, even the party they voted for. It’s the biggest reason the AFD is so popular: People wanted an alternative to the status quo, no matter what it is. Because they feel like "die da oben" (like "they up there") have always decided against the interests of the average guy. So actually, mistrust in the government is the cause of the AFD, not its solution.
In my comment I was actually not even thinking about the politicians, just the "majority" as in more than 50% of people. Not the current majority in parliament or anything like that.
Germany actually has a pretty big protest culture, at least I see them so regularly that it’s a very normal part of public life.
But many people are either too content with their life to complain or even be interested in something else (you could also call it lazy and ignorant tbh), or they are so disillusioned that they don’t believe they could ever change something. It’s the same in most western countries to be fair.
I absolutely agree with you about what we should do in regards to Israel, and I think most people in Germany actually also do. But what would happen on the international floor if Germany suddenly started saying we should arrest Israel’s top politician, stop supporting their "defense", and openly accuse them of genocide? It’s an honest question: Do you think we could? Without the whole world scolding us to not forget our history? I personally think Germany doesn’t even have the freedom of choice in this topic, no matter what we as a country think is right.
I think telling Netenyahu that he's safe to travel to Germany because they won't enforce the ICJ arrest warrant is a horrendous, terrible piece of international PR. Of course Germany should arrest him if he comes to Germany. He has an arrest warrant outstanding on him to stand trial for war crimes. Since when is Germany a place for people to evade justice.
Germany should be seen to respect the rule of law. Not tell the ICJ it has no jurisdiction and harbour someone wanted on war crime charges. Let the international court take that problem away from them. It's not on Germany to decide. That's the courts job through due process. If he's not guilty, let the court make that decision.
Anything else is German arrogance.
They can limit their support to only non-aggressive aspects. Don't supply funds or weapons. Supply medical aid, infrastructure support, etc and do the same for Gaza. Be on the side of the innocents caught up in the violence.
Friends tell friends when they're in the wrong. Friends tell friends when they're acting irrationally through anger, fear and hatred. This is especially true if that friend has been there themselves as they can offer a perspective others can not.
To own your history is to show you've learnt from it. Germany is acting more like they have a debt to repay, but there is no amount that can be repaid. You can only internalise the facts, learn the lessons and act in a way that shows that.
Again, I agree with everything above, I also think Germany is doing the wrong thing. In your last paragraph you say exactly what was my argument: Germany acts like it has a debt to repay. I can say from the perspective of a German that that is exactly what everyone here feels like is expected of us. Eternal atonement. Repaying what cannot be repaid. This has never changed since Germany lost WWII.
You have to consider that Germanys position regarding international relations is unique. The allied states gave us back our freedom not under the condition of being friends with Israel, but essentially owing a debt. Nobody ever let us forget what would happen if we "got out of line" again.
That is not only true on the level of international politics, but also in everyday life. When you travel to the US, people will straight up ask about the Nazi-Autobahn or whether you are a Nazi yourself. In Poland, people just might be a bit more unfriendly to you because of what your country did to theirs. In many places of the world you can buy "history pieces", from SS emblems to signed copies of "Mein Kampf". The whole world still kind of thinks of the Nazis when they talk about Germany, and if its even just 1% of what they think, it's still there. Like, no offense taken, but I don't know about any other country in this position. Russia, the US, Great Britain, France, even Japan or Italy. I don't think any of these countries' citizens get asked uncomfortable questions about their countries past when on vacation. Their children do not grow up in the knowledge that they will have to bear the sins of their country, and put them on their children too.
So, Germany accepted this role, these expectations, and does its best to keep to that. Nobody here thinks it would be internationally accepted if we "emancipated" ourselves from this duty. I think many Germans want to, at least in my social bubble. But do you think we could, without any repercussions?
I think what we need is absolution, forgiveness, a new beginning with no strings attached. A real, equal friendship between Israel and Germany. Trust. Otherwise we will just stay paralyzed by our infinite moral debt. I don't think this will happen in our lifetimes. Not with the current Israel, the current US, the current Germany.
TL;DR: I wanted to give an perspective on why Germanys position is kind of unique in this world. It is one of the biggest economies, a sovereign state, but still not free in decisions regarding Israel.
I get where you're coming from. It's a hard legacy to inherit, but honestly most European countries have terrible events in their past. Germany's is just the most recent.
It's sad that travelling as a German is so awkward. Americans can be ignorant jerks, so that doesn't surprise me much. Few of them know how mainstream Nazi thinking was there before they entered the war. They treat us British as occupiers that they had to kick out, rather than the ancestral home of their founding fathers. Best to brush them off.
With many other places WW2 kicked off a series of occupations that only finished with the fall of the Soviet Union. It's still raw.
There is no absolution. There's just time.
(Germany needs a good therapist)
You're focusing on Israel as being the answer. Israel is not the Jewish diasporas. What Israel wants is not the same thing as what the Jewish people want. What about all the Jews around the world that see Israel killing in their name and are disgusted by it? They then see Germany by Israel's side?
Ukraine, on the other hand...defending a nation against a clear aggressor. A foreign policy slam-dunk, yet it's France and the UK taking the lead.
Be a rock. Be solid. A good world citizen. Be worthy of the world's trust and then you will be trusted.
Nazis were installed in East and West Germany
Nazis were kept at industrial managers for West/East Germany
Nazis that weren't punished got hired via Operation Paperclip and Operation Osoaviakhim, scottfree from the mass murder.
Nazis that escaped to Argentina eventually got influence there and back home.
I know hindsight is 20/20 but we should have arrested every single one of them until they died from old age, and let their graves be a monument to their atrocities and a public bathroom.
Careful, your ignorance is leaking.
Explain to me how deporting people for protesting against genocide is a thing decent people do.
I was responding to your original premise, that "Germans never stopped being Nazis" - and you know it. Don't try to feign outrage at being called out for condemning an entire country's people ("Germans") for the actions of a few (The Berlin Senate Administration.)
Do better, and perhaps people will earnestly engage with you for the better instead of just getting upset with you.
Germany's post-World War II government was riddled with former Nazis
For a more than 20 years fter World War II, nearly 100 former members of Adolf Hitler's Nazi party held high-ranking positions in the West German Justice Ministry, according to a German government report.
From 1949 to 1973, 90 of the 170 leading lawyers and judges in the then-West German Justice Ministry had been members of the Nazi Party.
Of those 90 officials, 34 had been members of the Sturmabteilung (SA), Nazi Party paramilitaries who aided Hitler's rise and took part in Kristallnacht, a night of violence that is believed to have left 91 Jewish people dead.
...
The prevalence of former Nazi officials in the ministry allowed them to shield one another from post-war justice and to carry over some Nazi policies, like discrimination against gays, into the West German government.
One lawyer who helped craft discriminatory laws barring marriages between Jews and non-Jews during the Nazi regime held a top family-law position in the post-World War II Justice Ministry, according to The Local.
"The Nazi-era lawyers went on to cover up old injustice rather than to uncover it and thereby created new injustice," said Heiko Maas, Germany's justice minister who presented the report Monday, according to AFP.
The infiltration of the post-war West German government by former Nazis was not limited to the Justice Ministry. A report released late last year found that between 1949 and 1970, 54% of Interior Ministry staffers were former Nazi Party members, and that 8% of them had served in the Nazi Interior Ministry, which at one point was run by SS chief Heinrich Himmler.
Surprise?
I mean, who else would have been able to run the government, when most people with the required skills were also associated with the Former system.
Americans deliberately counted on the expertise of former Nazis. Thats not news and actually not very shocking.
And discrimination against gays was more of a Zeitgeist thing. E.g. Being gay was a Crime in france until 1982.
Holocaust survivors and refugees, for starters. Germany was fully occupied by the US and USSR, so all the big decisions were going through DC/Moscow anyway. Turning the government over to survivors and any resisters you could find would have made far more sense than simply handing the country back to the Fascists.
I agree from a moral standpoint but from the perspective of efficient rebuilding I disagree.
Is your premise that people cannot see the errors of their ways and therefore cannot change? Or are you presenting facts in an attempt to imply that all this time there's been a shadow Nazi government? Or..? I don't know if you're aware of this, but during the war years, everyone had to be a member of the Nazi party. All youth groups that weren't official Nazi organizations were banned.
In the years between WWII and German reunification, there was an active effort to stamp out Nazi ideals in the West. Children learned in graphic detail what atrocities were committed, and many of them took those learnings to heart. To this day, spending on military in Germany, surveillance by the state, are fraught topics. German politics couldn't be further from a 1 or 2 party system.
What was informs but doesn't dictate what is. I have spent a lot of time in Germany, and I'm certain that in spite of the rise of AfD, Germany is the European country furthest from Nazi ideals.
The fact that it hasn't even been a century and they're already reverting is proof enough for me that they didn't change.
Not when they are immersed in a roiling pot of fascist propaganda, no. You can't see error when you are surrounded by media justifying your decisions. You can't find the will to change when you've been told again and again that circumstances are beyond your control.
Right now, German media is as bad as anything the MAGA Americans are churning out, with migrant hysteria and xenophobia hitting a fevered pitch. Combined with the energy crisis in Europe and the economic downturn globally, it's a recipe for a new wave of Fascist dictatorship that Germans as rapidly buying into once again.
Yeah as an american I absolutely can't relate to the experience of people blaming an entire country for the actions of their government. Especially by europeans who always act like they're better than us despite starting two world wars, the slave trade, and currently falling back into fascism, which they invented by the way. That could never possibly happen and I apologize for acting in retaliation for these actions which have not happened.
They are not innocent protesters: https://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article255845278/Wegen-Stuermung-von-Uni-Gebaeude-Erstmals-Exempel-statuiert-Berlin-plant-Ausweisung-auslaendischer-Israel-Hasser.html
It wasn't just protesting though. It's hard to get details and it might very well be that Berlin "over reacted", so I'll be looking forward to see what the courts decide, the 4 already have sued against the order to leave.
German unification was a mistake.
The real umbrella term is tolerance, you embrace it and it covers you, you either fall in line and integrate or you're out.
Nowhere is set in stone that you have a right to bring the shit that made you flee your country into your host country and escape consequence.
Good riddance, globalism is absolute shit.
Beyond the thinly veiled xenophobia and eurocentrism, I find it actually ironic how many of you people spout this line of thinking since it shows your complete lack of mental capacity to engage with the reality that many of the people who flee do so as a result of Western involvement in other countries' governments, and the rest are fighting a system that chooses racism and violence toward the poor over, and over, and over, and over....
tl;Dr: keep shitting on the Global South but don't be surprised when you're alone while Putin and Trump come for your children and your children's children.
It's really really cute to see Germans/Europeans/Westerners pretending that antisemitism is an imported problem.
I might also add none of the rights you enjoy are set in stone, so maybe when they throw you in a camp you can bring that up to them.
Which comments are you talking about? There's one comment that's deleted by a mod, and mostly everyone else is talking about Germany.
I've even gone to your instance to see what you see, and seems like you're complaining about something that's not present.
When you have privilege, losing that privilege is perceived as persecution. We see a similar phenomenon with snowflake white males in the US spouting misinformation about what DEI is so that they can end it.
Fuck the genocidal state of Israel.
But are they self sealing?
Of course!
Don't see any...
FREE PALESTINE 🇵🇸
Are you promoting genocide?
Uh... Arresting people for criticizing the government is Nazi behavior.
Yes we have too little people coming here to fix the baby boomer hole. We need more.
Also refugees ≠ imigrants
Also everyone trades with china. Not saying its good. Just saying this isnt a thing anyone is not doing
The extra fun part is that all post industrial revolution countries have flat or falling populations. This includes Europe, Russia, China, Japan, South Korea, North America and parts of South America, and parts of the South Pacific. All of these regions need to import people if they want to keep using the same productivity and economic systems. The sheep lack of people is going to start causing major issues on all fronts.
This is going to put nations in a position to compete for immigrants with each other. It's going to be a buyer's market for young adults. Collectively, they need to make their labor more dear and nations need to treat people better to get and keep them in the future.
There's plenty of material on the stages of population change in developing nations: https://youtu.be/Ufmu1WD2TSk
The demographic transition model continues to be reasonable on track around the world: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_transition
Where's the freedom of expression?
I don't even like the phrase "from the river to the sea..." because it implies denying the two-state solution, but even people I disagree with should be free to profess their political views without fear.
That's a good point, because the protestors took a building by force and threatened staff and students with violence, while also smashing electronics into pieces.
I don't think protests should go as far as to instill fear into innocent citizens.
When it comes to accusations in a functional state, innocence must be presumed. If they are brought to trial and fairly tried, they should then receive the appropriate sentence to their crimes, which could very well involve deportation. It's trivial, but according to the article the individuals in question were not tried and convicted for any crimes. The current scenario is simply a violation of freedom of expression.
Meanwhile Japan is sitting there laughing, as they never really apologized for their warcrimes
& now are engaging in illegal whaling
Nope. The Nazi party became active in 1920, so it's just over 100 years.
You're being downvoted for your strawman framing. Recognising that Netanyahu's actions in Gaza (and farther, now) are unethical and illegal is absolutely not the same as calling for another Jewish genocide. Being pro-Palestine does not mean you're calling for the destruction of Israel or the murder of Jews.
There seems to be a fairly successful effort to frame any opposition of Israel's actions as antisemitic, which is a disgraceful attempt to use the suffering of Jewish ancestors as a shield against criticism today.
What? We're talking about the person from Germany chanting "From river to the sea" thingy, which was made illegal in Germany.
Of course what that war criminal is doing in Gaza is beyond unethical, but both my comment and article is about what happened in Germany.
If you wish to live there, try not breaking laws that Germans are super sensitive about. That's it.
EDIT: You guys read the article, right? ...right?
From the river to the sea Palestine will be free
Completely false.
Those are reperation payments from WW2 and Germany stopped weapon exports to Israel.
https://www.reuters.com/world/germany-has-stopped-approving-war-weapons-exports-israel-source-says-2024-09-18/
If reducing weapon exports by nearly 99% (going from billions to millions to thousands to no approvals in last 6 months is insane difference, wake up) is still bad for you, then.. ehh, you people are out for blood. You do not care about any form of sane approach to the problems, you wish to reach for extrememities and do things that would make even Natenyahu (hopefully wrote that right) proud.
I do not feel safe here, I feel like in some radicalized place that wants to kill, kill, kill.
The responses I'm getting are insane, thankfully moderators here seem to be doing a fine job.
Ah ok, fair enough. I did read the article, but I didn't realise that was what you were talking about - perhaps quoting the bit you're responding to would stop me and others being confused.
who is calling for this?
FREE PALESTINE 🇵🇸
Strawman! There is an active ongoing genocide against Palestinians right now, that is the reality, not the one you just made up
Can you read?
Wow I feel like in tumblr.
Me: Genocide bad
You: GENOCIDE BAAAD
Yet you think we are enemies.
Your edit is literal cancer and just made up by you.
Same as your argument that talks about something unrelated to whatever happened in Germany. Strawman argument, like you said.
And you deleted your edit, hypocrite racist fucking asshole. Karma will be a bitch to your Nazi ass
Wow you are really insane. What are you even talking about
How tf does me being anti-genocide, supporting free palestine and peace equals to a nazi? Take the pills dude, you people remind me of 4chan conspiracy theorists and I think not a single person here really understood my point (that you should respect Germany's sensitive laws if you wish to live there)
You make up people calling for a Jewish genocide in this thread, but you still can't bring yourself to use the word Genocide for the state that set up torture rape camps that they used to rape doctors to death.
Why the double standard? Why does calling for a single state with equal rights for citizens constitute calling for a genocide, but you can't call the country that has bombed and destroyed every hospital and school while continuing to block all access to food genocidal?
Why the double standard?
Sadly have to agree. These people make everything about Israel for some reason