Ostracize Nazis Rule
Shout them down in every space, make them embarrased to think the stupid shit they think.
If we don't embarrass and correct them now we will have to kill them later when they come for our friends and families.
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Comments259View original on lemmy.world
Nazi punks FUCK OFF!
They already tried to take punk and punk said "no".
You got one downvote. That asshole is either in the wrong discussion and doesn't know their music or is a Nazi cock gobbler and needs to wipe the orange off their lips.
Nazi punks FUCK OFF!
We just watched one do a nazi salute twice, on national TV, in the seat of government and not a single member of the "opposition" had the balls to walk up there and punch him in the face.
The Nazis have won. People care more about civility than fascism.
The fascists will lose. They always lose. They might seem to have the upper hand right now, but they can only fool the people for so long until they fight back.
I agere. Sadly they hurt a lot people untill they get stopped or destroy themselves.
Nazis are a bit like cockroaches. If you stomp a couple, the rest will run away and hide.
Unfortunately it takes too long for them to lose.
For as long as men die, liberty will never perish
Be ungovernable
It's pathetic how true that feels.
Boy, you give up easily. They've "won" already?
Culturally at least, they have. Not a single Democrat did anything except whine about the very public displays of Nazism.
Luckily for us the courts and other countries are actually providing some checks and balances, but if we get a Reichstag-style event in the next two years, the Democrats will absolutely fall in line with whatever form the dictatorship decides to take.
What the hell are you talking about Jesse?
Tbh Black metal (awesome as it is) has a lot of ties to Nazi movements. Back when I was first getting into it I bought myself a Burzum shirt, because I only had a vague idea of Varg being somewhat of a controversial figure. I thought, how bad could this guy really be? Well... He is B A D. Despite a lot of this kind of music still being a guilty pleasure of mine I have ventured into anti Nazi bands such as Neckbeard Death camp, who are really vocal about kicking Nazis from the scene. That being said, traverse black metal paying heed to your step, for ignorance can end you up with neo Nazi band merch.
Guy at Black Metal Show Does Quick Google Search To Make Sure Band Aren’t Nazis Before Heading to Merch Table
Man, fuck Varg. What an absolute waste of a human and an absolute stain.
Probably every single thing that you like is also liked by a few Nazis around the world.
There's a significant difference between "Nazi's like something I like as well" and "Nazi's are involved in making this thing that I like".
How many must be involved in making it? Lets say for a music genre? Probably we should be taking about percentage wise?
Pause a moment and consider what are trying to accomplish with this argument.
Black Metal is not a Nazi genre and I don’t think anyone was actually making that claim. However, white supremacism and Nazi sympathies are common enough in the genre that it has its own scene to the point where it could even be considered a subgenre. It’s even known as National Socialist Black Metal.
The line is definitely blurry when it comes to some bands being labeled as NSBM when the band itself appears to be or even asserts they are apolitical. This makes it difficult to confidently make statements like “this is a Nazi band” or “10% of Black Metal bands are Nazis.”
But that isn’t the point of this thread; the point was “Nazis are overrepresented in Black Metal, so listener beware because you might find yourself sporting a t-shirt that advocates whites supremacy and cruising around town blasting neo-Nazi anthems.”
This isn’t about how many Nazis it takes to make a Nazi music genre or if people from opposite ends of the political spectrum are allowed to enjoy the same music. It’s about being aware that musical tastes can be hijacked to get people to listen to, or even defend, ideas they wouldn’t normally.
Yes, I agree. But also it’s not a coordinated takeover. Sometimes there is a theme overlap, which attracts (in this case) nazis.
I'm not suggesting that as a whole "one Nazi makes something in the genre, and now the genre is ruined".
However, if you're not a Nazi, it would be prudent to establish whether or not the creator, (regardless of genre or medium) is also not a Nazi. Especially if that medium/genre has a reputation for attracting that type of crowd.
I understand. I thought that the original post is saying that nazis "steal" the genre as in - it's theirs. I was explained that its about basically what you said.
Damn I love Lemmy, this would get OP banned on Reddit ... just the truth.
Glad to have you here :)
It feels like old reddit
If you happen to want to express similar sentiments with comrades, use signal.
I have a Celtic knot tattoo on my forearm (actually it's the album cover of King Crimson's album Discipline).
My British friend told me I shouldn't display that in public in the UK because people might think I'm a neonazi.
I'm like fuck no, Celtic symbols don't belong to Nazis and I won't let them have it! Also, it's a prog album cover wtf
Yeah, prog rock's not very popular so most people won't recognize it as what it is, unfortunately.. However, I wear band tshirts like 80% of the time and by far the best reactions were to my Rush Tshirt. Followed by Riverside and KGLW.
Anyway, fuck nazis !
Respect for having Discipline cover tattooed on your forearm
Thanks, it's my only tattoo so far lol
Or Hawaiian shirts. Man, I love my Hawaiian shirts and I was not happy when they were briefly associated with some nonsense fucking Civil War 2.0 bullshit. I'm very glad that particular stylistic movement fell apart.
Boogaloo Boys were strange, they seemed to be a bunch of loosely affiliated extremists from every corner of the political spectrum (although concentrated in certain corners).
It seems like they were accelerationists.
They were a bunch of fucking nerds cosplaying fascist revolution. Dustbin of History.
Nazis are cultural parasites.
They’ve already taken some Metal. Went to a Metallica concert and there were trump flags in the parking lot, militia-style shirts, firearms shirts, blue line flag shirts, Punisher skull shirts…. I was surrounded by White Power and authoritarians. The Metal Heads I grew up with all decided they wanted to carry the batons and riot shields they hated in their youth. Didn’t help that FFDP was there with their military fetish and making commentary about the Biden administration.
Tbf these are the guys who killed Napster
One of many, but certainly one of the loudest and most monied voices.
Aren't/Weren't Pantera associated with white supremacism as well?
There's probably loads more to be fair
Yeah there are some videos out there of Phil Anselmo screaming "White Power"
Kind of yes, although their music didn't have anything to do it, and their "white supremacism" didn't go much beyond "but can that n----- play the guitar?", confederate flags, and Phil Anselmo's "edgy humor". Some of it was actually overplayed, because Dimebag didn't play his guitar 100% aligned to perfect rythm, and djent kids didn't like that. Metallica is more aware its own right wingedness in its music.
I can believe that.
I've a afroamerican mate here in Sweden, kinda mad lad.
He's from NY. Once he told me at every gig he was the only black guy in the crowd (90s), Punk, metal, he always was alone.
Anyway it seems he had a good time, but I guess NY it's diffent from many other places in the Us.
Depends on the band, I guess. Been to some punk stuff and it was really mixed. Metallica was the biggest metal show I’ve been to, there were different ethnicities in the crowd, but I would have felt kinda uncomfortable were I them. E: TBC I felt uncomfortable by what I saw.
Depends on the band and part of NY. People tend to forget that NY state is huge and has a lot of rural areas. I lived in the Hudson Valley for a long time and went to a ton of punk and metal shows in that area and can say that the crowds were 99% white. That being said, we didn't give a fuck if you weren't white; people in the pit only cared of you were an asshole who was out to hurt people.
Dude I went to an Incubus concert a couple years ago and there was a guy proudly wearing a "Let's go Brandon!" shirt.
He might've been cheering on the singer though.
I'm kinda disappointed how much I like some of their stuff, but I refuse to support them and their Wehraboo fanbase.
Metallica sucks anyway. If they've already taken it they can have it. Shitloads of good metal out there.
feels bad man
I'm just relieved they didn't succeed for long
They already took flags in multiple countries.
It’s always iffy when you carry the flag of your country because the people who do that tend to be assholes. Let’s not let them get anything else.
And take the flags back too.
Yep. 100% true in Sweden. They've been doing it since the 90s.
Plus they associate war with masculinity and magic with femininity, and their main guy is the god of both. Women fought and men learned magic. Clearly gender was a pretty flexibly concept. (Not to even mention that we found what appears to be trans masc viking burials.)
What buried site was that?
Birka grave Bj 581
For a second I feared Lemmy didn't have the "Save comment" function yet.
There's a specific breed of online Nazis who insist that it's 'punk' to be Conservative.
I say we put this to the test as often as possible.
fascists are even trying to steal the identity and word of conservatisim.
conservatives of 12-15 years ago are liberal by todays standards.
They can have Nickleback
BUILD THE WONDERWALL
Man, feel like Norse iconography might be almost a lost cause here. I was looking into getting a Thor's Hammer tattoo years ago... Every variation you can think of has been co-opted by a Nazi group somewhere. I think it was the FBI that used to keep a database of symbols linked to terrorist groups, most of it was various flavors of Nazis and most of that was symbols stolen from Norse culture.
Here’s a resource if anyone is looking https://www.adl.org/resources/hate-symbols/search
Couldn't a "fuck Nazis" message somewhere clarify that?
I've got a huge Vlad Tepes Dracula tattoo for very personal reasons. Then I find out Nazis are using it as a symbol. Fuck their perfidious infiltration.
This is why gatekeeping is actually important. But you've got to be sure you're keeping out the people who want to change the group, rather than people who want to join it.
I remember when Anime ang gaming were pretty progressive. Now they complain wokism about everything. God fucking damn.
Then the hentai thing is insane how the rape theme took over. They cry censorship and shit but man you follow a guy in Instagram that does hentai ONLY ABOUT RAPE! 80+ works all about rape! You don't see a fuckin problem there buddy?
Yeah it gone a little personal.
It took over? What were those tentacle monsters doing? Loving tenderly?
Yeah I get it but I mean the NTR and "guy doing the rape" definitely took over. I remember on the late 90s early 2000s it was much more fantasy bs and "lucky guy" stories shit like bible black and house of dolls where the exception rather than the norm.
I can give it to you that maybe it was always there and I'm having some rose tinted memories, but definitely is worrying and the supporters are quite a handful that's undeniable.
Not familiar with that. I'm very curious what kind of hentai you were watching.
I haven't watched hentai in a while (since late 90s, early 2000s). I primarily remember the more conspicuous, taboo content that probably drew more attention of foreign audiences: incest, rape, tentacles, pedophilia, coprophilia, gore, vore, etc. I'm sure there was much gentler stuff too, but taboo seemed to get the most reaction.
Is there a conservative punk rock movement?
Yes.
It’s exactly as mid and soulless as you’d think.
I'm guessing they aren't very self-aware either.
They never are
What do you think "Nazi punks fuck off" was for?
I thought it was for the conservative/neo-nazi/fascist fans I didn't think there were actual bands.
dead kennedys made it their opener at live shoes because neo nazis would show up to their concerts
the bigger thing right now is people being purposefully obtuse and treating "punk" as the same thing as "counter culture."
conservatives are using this argument to state that they are the REAL punks because they are anti-establishment (while somehow holding all branches of the government but whatever)
in their mind punk people change their political ideologies to whatever is the opposite of who is in power, and so clearly all existing punks had to flip to the other side the second obama was elected or something.
(I'm a second generation punk on both sides and my whole family would curb stomp these asshats)
Conservatives have never and will never be the punk, because punk is a counterculture movement against cultural conservatism, not who is in office at any given time. Punk has always been about cultural freedom, and conservatism is about cultural restriction.
One of the best examples of conservatives' superficial understanding of counterculture was during the 2020 elections in Philadelphia, when some Boomers wrapped themselves in flags outside a polling place and danced to RATM "Killing in the Name". They heard the words "fuck you I won't do what you tell me", and decided that it represented THEM, while discarding the rest of the lyrics and the entire meaning of the song.
They do this with all media, from music to books to movies and TV. Their understanding and interpretation of art begins and ends at the surface level.
It almost made me cry with joy when racists in UK were opossed by classic anti fascist punk guys with spiked hair during the riots last year. I hade no idea these guys were still around.
The Red Warriors need to make a comeback.
You're a purebred punk?
in the same way that a child of two goldendoodles is a purebred goldendoodle i guess lol
I hope you're smarter than a goldendoodle.
Like the broader skinhead movement, Oi! was originally just a punk subgenre, but now a lot of people only affiliate them with fascists. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oi!
Testing link correction
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oi!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oi!
Ah it wanted the hyperlink syntax, actually seems sound design
Yeah don't let them have the swastika either.
Wait… I'm hearing it's too late for that. Damn.
They are fucking losers who have based their life on hate. It’s all they have, we gotta show their idiot followers they have no fun. We know how to fucking party. Party for freedom! Be excellent to each other. I want a bill and Ted future, not a handmaidens tale. Stand up and fight back!
I had to stop wearing my Mjølner pendant because of those fucks. So I fully agree.
You didn't have to. That's called relenting. Could have worn a "fuck fascists" message alongside it? Maybe it was easier to give up that battle?
I'm not going to let them take fat and stupid. The sacrifices my people made will not be in vain!
I guess we can let them keep Tesla...
Not wrong at all, the Nazi Party co-opted and stole countless icons and imagery, the swastika itself was stolen.
and the modern day Nazi Party in Russia at least, tries to steal entire letters of the Latin alphabet.
It's bad enough they basically own my entire demograph.
How about letting them have "no", "get bent" or, in extremes cases, a punch to the kisser? Can they have those?
They already took Doge
So fucking on point. I'm tired of things being g taken by them.
Do fascists really try to take Satanism though? Don't they usually prefer to claim to be on God's side?
Fascists try to take everything they can get their hands on to try and get a way "in". There's O9A, Joy of Satan, STS (not TST) and others.
There's a bunch of fucking Nazi punks out there. Punk and satanism are uber alles. Punk is anti fascist as it gets but these fucks are too stupid to see it.
Nazis can have Trapt. That’s what they can have.
They can have nothing.
I'm willing to let then have Nickleback.
The joke you think you’re making isn’t funny actually.
Let them have nothing
You seem fun.
I agree with this. That singer is a mega douche anyway. One of the most hilarious things I've seen was a few years back when he was trying to beef with Ice-T on Twitter, and Ice just kept calling him "Mr. Trapt" and it sent him off the fucking edge.
This is a wonderful point! I recall years ago reading the government said of the hippies that they just started selling them incense (to put it lightly) and it was one of the ways of taking them down from the inside. So this is an old trick used by many. Sucks how insidious it all is.
Does that go for liberal or philosophical ideals like free speech?
I come across a bit of rhetoric identifying free speech as a right-wing authoritarian cause, arguing that they "claim, twist, poison, ruin" it, so it's fine to give it up and no longer defend it.
Those rhetoricians seem to have a skewed or ahistorical disregard for the advances in political philosophy from the enlightenment era that got society out of the dark ages, away from authoritarianism & toward political plurality & liberal democracy. Freedom of speech was a foundational development & its growth enabled the civil rights movements that followed.
Yet according to the rhetoric, it's a problem now that right-wing authoritarians claim it as part of their cause. They'll just let them claim & define it, and now that free speech is wrong (since they let right-wingers "have" it), it's okay to limit & undermine it.
One might think they're right-wing authoritarians in disguise trying to dupe everyone into threatening the foundations of liberal society. Whether or not they are, there's a good chance they'll show up here possibly in response to this comment.
Is there a name for that type of rhetoric or the people who argue it?
Anyway, it all seems like capitulation to me. I think letting fascists claim such philosophical ideals is a mistake.
Free Speech is the right to have and express opinions without being repressed by the government. Yelling fire in a theatre is not an opinion any more than harassing people with racial slurs or other forms of flatulence.
Nobody is giving free speech to fascists. Ignorant assholes are misappropriating the term to justify their disgusting behaviour and they're the only one's falling for it.
The (direct) harm principle of free speech has been recognized since at least J S Mill. It's reflected in legal limitations on incitement of imminent lawless action (falsely shouting fire); incitement of violence; defamation; discriminatory acts that objectively deprive peaceful access to rights, opportunities, or resources we are entitled to. It does not restrict merely offensive conduct that bothers.
Are you referring to harassment in the looser sense of merely irritating conduct or in the stricter sense of personally targeted conduct that is unwelcome & objectively harms or deprives peaceful access as mentioned before (often through persistence)? We don't have a right not to be offended.
Freedom of speech is specifically for speech we dislike including much that you listed. It's also for speech to oppose that, which could be taken much further instead of trying to compromise it.
People who support only "free speech" they agree with don't support free speech at all. They either never understood free speech, or believe it's not worth it, thus give it away to the authoritarians exactly like I criticized.
I’ve read all the comments here and I’ve concluded that we don’t really have an effective way for dealing with this problem, although we all recognise the problem.
I will forever curse Milo Snuffaluffagus or whatever his name was for Gamergate.
Especially since incompetent Games Jouranlism is and has been a problem for a long time, and now nothing will be done about it because any attempt to reform or shake up the industry is poisoned by the spectre of that bigoted sham.
Would you find comfort, or discomfort if i told you I've been a "gamer" since 1984, and I'm still not fully clear in wtf gamergate was?
I'm aware it involved journalists and devs. The adhd kinda prevented anything beyond that.
The sneakiest thing about it is the issues it brought were geniune, but its desire to solve them was not.
It was a movement that wanted to target game journalism acting in political interest more in gaming one, hiring journalists who were blatantly unqualified, giving games terrible review scores either for being "too difficult" or for not being "politically correct" enough.
The problem? Gamergate was always a scam, the people behind the movement had no interest in addressing these concerns, but rather using them to indoctrinate gamers into the far right, and sadly it worked as we're still having to fight off bigots in gaming who shit themselves whenever a rainbow shows up or god forbid anyone have a skintone that's any darker than the quiet kid who hung out at Hot Topic loudly praising the Columbine Shooters back in 2005.
And the actual problems Gamer Gate wanted to address continue to go unsolved, especially as we see remasters and remakes that are heavily censored compared to their original counterpart (Dead Rising 2006 Vs. Dead Rising 2024 is a good example) or worse, we see games that actively remove content for being too raunchy (Skull Girls basically lost its playerbase overnight by censoring out all of the fanservice in their fanservice game, which even went as far as removing fanart from the art book that they charged money for, falsely accused the original creator of being a pedophile, and claimed the fans upset about this change were also pedophiles.. weirdly that didn't win them back and the game has entered something of a dark age.), with games journalism carrying water for such atrocities.
(You can say what you want about the morality of selling a game where you see the women's panties during high kicks, the fact that the game was sold as a fanservice game for the better part of two decades and then suddenly EVERYONE'S COPIES were patched to remove that is wrong, it's been rightfully compared to George Lucas breaking into your house to steal your VHS copies of the original trilogy and leave behind Special Edition Blu-Rays. While one of these characters was canonically 16 which is usually the defense for that, this only covers one character and even then her age came up so little in the story that I didn't know until it was given as a reason for the change, but counter-point.... Why draw attention to it instead of just quietly upping the age of an animated cartoon of a woman who doesn't exist who is only ever given a solid number for her age when you check the wiki anyway?)
There was also the infamous debacle of a game journalist who was mocked for giving Cuphead a bad review calling it too difficult, when the same journalist while filming himself trying to play it couldn't pass a tutorial with literal written instructions on screen, he later was terrible at Doom Eternal and gave that a poor score too.
For those who don't play games, Doom Eternal and Cuphead are considered two of the greatest games of all time, with the latter having a three season Netflix series and a comic book series fully exploring and fleshing out the world, while the former was basically the second coming of FPS games that don't suck.
So the company he worked for, instead of reprimanding him and teaching him to get good went "The gamers are to blame!", and wrote slander articles trying to portray Cuphead as being racist. A claim that was basically laughed away from the fandom and quickly walked back.
I was with Gamergate when it originally launched, but left when I found out the truth. Thankfully I'm a transwoman so it didn't take me long to figure out that this wasn't worth my time as my particular faction of it actually banned me for being a woman. I was told by some incel chud that I "Likely was just pretending to be a gamer to get a boyfriend" and that "Sorry honey this aint your dating app."
Then Gamergate as a whole tried to tell people that Mortal Kombat X wasn't sexy enough and was trying to indoctrinate people into being gay, the latter of which was based on a single character having a single throw away line in the storyline not even said by him that implied it. (Same story mode also has the game being brought to a screeching halt so Johnny Cage and Sonya Blade can scream in each other's faces about how they totally used to fuck, meaning ironically it's heterosexuality that's being shoved in player's faces.), the former of which was based on the fact that the women are in their underwear but in the last game they had more revealing underwear.
Thanks for the response, and the examples. I appreciate you writing that all out.
The only way to defeat ignorance is with information gives a thumbs up
I hate how it’s always like this. Some leftists get angry about fictional stuff and fascists use the opportunity to get more people to their side. When will they learn to shut up about things that don’t actually harm anyone?
Gamergate would’ve had no legs to stand on if people just left “gamers” alone. Instead they decided to complain about innocuous stuff and now we have a crapton of young people who suck up to Andrew Tate & co because they feel like the other side of the spectrum hates them. How do we always manage to sabotage ourselves?
That's the worst part, if off-shoots of Feminist Movements hadn't embraced misandry and the games industry hadn't attacked gamers as "man-children" while taking an anti-freedom of speech stance, the Right would be having a crisis
Especially since the Misandrist off-shoots of Feminism have massively jumped on the "Trump is protecting women by crucifying trans people in public!" train because they were garbage people to begin with and garbage is as garbage does.
My heart goes out to Sarah McBride, she doesn't deserve the blatant bullying being thrown her way.
We do have effective ways, but libs would rather spend their time shitting on communists (the ones who historically and actually fight fascism)
I love how butthurt they become when you call them fascist. They're perfect fine invading spaces they don't belong in, but the moment somebody labels them correctly, they lose their shit
F the fascists
ᚨᛚᛖᚱᛏᚨ ᚨᛚᛖᚱᛏᚨ ᚨᚾᛏᛁᚠᚨᚢᛋᚺᛁᛋᛏᚨ
"alerta alerta antifausists"?
ᛗᛡ ᚠᚢᚦᚪᚱᚳ ᛁᛋ ᚪ ᛚᛁᛏᛚᛖ ᚱᚢᛋᛏᛡ
I believe in you! It's just a little Rusty now but you'll turn it into a fully memory-safe project eventually!
ᚦᚪᛜᚳᛋ
this goes for most ideologies, really
No, it really doesn't. Nazism is uniquely disingenuous and predatory by its nature.
They aren't predators. They're parasites.
Nah, other ideologies create things and can do more than just appropriate.
Fascists haven't created anything cultural since Leni Reifenstahl. And she was a documentarist.
For Fascists all imagery and symbols are merely empty signifiers for nostalgia, a mythologised past, and a sense of belonging.
They already killed hip-hop.
The culture of "real" hip-hop is basically crime culture, within that crime culture the same methods of of fascist control are used. Like the way rappers attack one another and try to control people. Gangs intertwined with the culture. Gangs are fascist, they are Nazis, they abuse people for their own personal gains. Rappers are often a voice for that sort of shitty behavior.
Just listen to any "gangster rap" they are all authoritarians raping other people's lives.
(Very generalized)
Fuck that shit. Listen to Danny, Tech, RTJ. Fucking MF DOOM and Ace Rock if you want to go back. Hip hop is punk as fuck and anti fascist.
Gangsta rap culture has its roots in generational poverty and the Reagan-inflicted crack epidemic.
There's a conspiracy theory going around that the music industry execs colluded to heavily promote gangsta rap over social-conscious rap during the 90's, so that young black people would turn to a life of crime and fill up prisons, as they had recently invested in the nascent private prison industry.
The only "proofs" are anonymous testimonies by self-described industry insiders, but the fact that rap wasn't always about gangsta culture is real.
Honestly I fully believe it, especially since black people who get into music are pushed towards Rap and Hip Hop by their labels being told "This is the only black music that will sell"
Women of all colors have similar things done with them, usually getting pushed into love songs.
https://youtu.be/uAq6RjSuwXQ - Korn actually made a music video with black celebrities as stand-ins for the band solely to send the message of "If we were black, this song couldn't exist because the industry is just that racist."
And I think it's common knowledge that the song "Love Song", was specifically in rebellion to the artist in question being told that women HAVE to do love songs.
If you told me that Suge Knight was responsible for the Lindbergh baby kidnapping, I’d believe you.
Well, Superman looked up at me,
he said, "You rock so naturally"
I said "Now that you've learned to deal, let me tell you why I'm so for real.
I'm Cozmo D from outer space, I came to rock the human race.
I do it right 'cause I can't do it wrong That's why the whole world is singin' this song"
Ah, jam on it
“Very generalized” uhh, can you give some examples? Like, maybe if you squint at the 90’s West Coast/East Coast rivalry, but not really?
They can have a video game, but only this one puts down a copy of Superman 64
Let's let them have nu-metal... that'll show them.
Sounds like you are taking one step closer to the edge
nu metal is trash but it's OUR trash and we're not sharing with fascist dickheads
I don't know man, Satanism is pretty fucking stupid.
You're pretty fucking stupid.Educate yourself.I'm familiar with this version - it's still a bit silly, but I understand it's more of a pressure group than anything, and I can see where they're coming from.
I’m okay with letting them have Christianity though.
Not real Christianity though. Not the one where people feed people and help others. Don't forget Prez Carter and Mr. Roger's were both that kind of Christian. They can have the Jerry Falwell style bullshit.
But my childhood church said that Carter and Rogers weren't real christians. Mr Rogers never would have advised I follow the bible's instructions to marry my rapist, for example.
I've heard "cherry picking" used a lot to deride christians for not following the bible, but I absolutely want people to be fake christians and only follow the feel good parts. I don't want people to be devout and take things on faith, I want them to question what they're told. I don't want the real christians who follow the bible as closely as possible. I want them to acknowledge that the bible has some horrible stuff in it that nobody should listen to.
You don’t need Christianity to be a good person. And it has enables too many people to do terrible things. Not sure you can split it into real/fake.
I don't. But some people do. If it brings out the good in them, where's the harm? And yes, there is real and fake. Real is following the actual actual teachings, fake is using them for self gain.
"Real is following the actual teachings"
I think I've heard this one for another religion, didn't end up great for the people (especially women)
The one where the sacred text explicitly says "no other texts" but everyone decides the various biographies (that they like) of the prophet get to be included as canon too?
I thought we were talking about Christianity. You can move goalposts, but that's a different game.
That seems fair, christianity has done enough in terms of sexism, racism, homophobia, genocide, pedophilia, ... no need to point out others religions
If you want to defend pedophiles, there's truth social you can go to.
Are you seriously saying Mr. Roger's was a pedophile?
They can have nothing.
You need to socialise, and get some new perspectives
I don't think they really ever steal cultures like that?
Which culture did they ever take and appropriate?
They've stolen and appropriated every symbol they have, from the swastika and the iron cross to pepe the frog.
Swastika is not a culture. A cross is a cross. Pepe?
If you have a Wiki link or comment, curious if any culture has ever been stolen.
(just speaking to parent commenter here, not making a declaration - trying to understand the perspective & outta my element)
I'm not sure what you mean. What I'm talking about is from the original post. Nazis won't take over satanism, black metal, punk, beer(wtf!!?) or anything else like that. It doesn't work like that.
Gotcha, thanks.
Are there historical examples of non-Nazis stealing culture in a really full way? (okie lemme Wiki that in the meantime btw)
Transparently: curious to assess what would constitute cultural theft by your standards. I’m not married to anything in this topic, so don’t have any canned attack on my clipboard or anything heh. And I’ll learn :)
My understanding is that a group infiltrates a culture to the point the culture becomes synonymous with it.
Otherwise there is no real point to it. Of course there are a lot of nazi people listening to hard rock. They are usually young men that would listen to hard rock no matter what their political view. But you can't say hard rock is Nazi.
In the US, Norse Pagan is getting kinda white supremacy-y.
https://www.adl.org/resources/hate-symbol/valknot
Witch girls are super rightwing now. A real weird flip.
That is a weird one. Did they get swarmed by people looking for alternative medicine or something?
What the fuck? How? Why? My witch girl comrades, no!
It's similar to the granola-mom to alt-right pipeline. If you're willing to believe things with no evidence, you can be made to believe anything.
I love the witchy girls, but there's a difference between doing a ritual because you know it calms you and helps you think, vs thinking you're actually dispelling demons. The latter are susceptible.
Oh yeah anyone who believes in magic is wackadoo woo, too far gone to help. I thought you meant women who have that style/vibe. I'm a man and I wish I could pull it off, it's cool.
Warlock-core. Wish I could do it too
I am referring to them. That demographic is the same one who believes in crystals and has been shifting to the right for years. The Venn Diagram of houses with a used Tarot deck, a Ouiji Board, and a MAGA hat and it's almost a circle.
There's some alt girls that wear black and you might be confusing the two. You can pull an alt look off. It's comically easy.
Well I'm in my 40s but I will say that I had a mohawk held up with wood glue and spraypaint in my 20s. After that look I went with really shitty white boy dreads. Then I went bald!
The absolute weirdest flip. The hyper feminism witch girl from my old highschool married an ICE agent. My super Wicca HR manager from two jobs back would do rituals for the police.
I dug into it and it's not a unique experience. That demographic, somehow, went fascist real fast. It's often attributed to "Conspiritualism" or holistic spiritual type peoples predisposition to accept wild conspiracy theories. The Alt Right works by rejecting the mainstream narratives and that aligns with their values. There's a shared element of fetishizing the past and both groups show high recruitment when people feel powerless.
Tldr; There are no harmless fools. If you worship a rock, you will get a block. Ignorance has no place in civil society.
The ADL didn't call Elon's salute a hate symbol, I think we can rule out their expertise at the moment. Also: "Non-racist pagans may also use this symbol, so one should carefully examine it in context rather than assume that a particular use of the symbol is racist."
If a Nazi says the sky is blue, that doesn't make it green
But here's another possible source, from a location that would know.
https://sites.uab.edu/humanrights/2021/04/02/uncovering-hate-revealing-not-so-secret-hate-symbols/
Skinhead culture.
Ok, but that's the only one and even there, the presence of nationalism was there almost from the start.
How about the republican party in the USA?
Even the swastika was co-opted by them.
That's not about over taking a culture.
Yes it is.
It's not the same as expecting a group to take over punk rock.
You're right, it's way more dangerous.
You're underselling the cringe. It was "dark, gothic MAGA"
That's not gonna stick. Maga are not cultured people. They don't listen to music, they don't delve into self reflection, they aren't thinking about meaning and the universe. There is no art there.
Sure there are a few people here and there, that will make a website, but that's not gonna hold.
The OG Nazis were very anti art. They called it degenerate. It's just the same old player piano roll playing into infinity with nobody in the seat.
Skinheads and oï weren't nazis at first (and still aren't for some part)
In some places, the SHARPs are the only skinheads around, which is nice.
And still aren't for a big part.
Miniature wargaming... 40K is especially fascy.
They've tried for punk subculture.
Been pretty successful with metal subculture.
Online nerd-subculture.
I'm sure there are many more... They're in the op pic after all.
So Nazis are taking miniature wargaming?
Unironically supporting the supremacy of the Big E, purity of the human species, and fascism of the Emperium. Like folks missing the irony in Verhoven's Starship Troopers.
That doesn't make any sense. If I write a sci Fi story about space Nazis, that doesn't mean Nazis are taking over literature.
I don't think the person you're replying to is accusing the authors of being Nazis. There are people out there who will support fascist characters in their favourite fictional universes, and when they go to social events like tabletop tournaments they'll bring a lot of talking points that are very close to fascism with them
Yes, that happens in all areas and situations in life, but that has nothing to do with Nazis infiltrating anything.
I wonder if maybe the phrase "Nazis infiltrating" is ascribing it too much intention in your mind?
People with awful views on the world appear in all sorts of hobbies, you're right, and that's sort of what I mean by co-opting or infiltrating; it might not always be a concerted sneaky plan, but these people turn up in spaces with other people and are so disagreeable that it pushes everyone else away.
Yes. It's been quite a big thing last 10 years or so.
How about runes and Thor’s hammer?
I don't think people think of Nazis when they see runes.
Then that’s out of ignorance.
Literally everything in the original post.
Punk Rock and black metal? I don't know, I listen to a lot of that and I get rarely hear any Nazis making such music. Of course there are bands like that, but there are also some gay Nazis and we aren't taking about Nazis appropriateing gayness.
You listen to a lot of black metal and are not aware of the Nazi problem? Come on some of the most well known black metal bands have Nazis in them everybody knows varg is a nazi.
Black metal has a whole nazi subgenre NSBM you have to be blind to not realize black metal has a nazi problem.
Then I'm blind. I don't know what to tell you. There are also gay Nazis, but that doesn't mean gay people have a Nazi problem.
They're not comparable. Being a Nazi is a choice, like listening to Pantera. Being gay is not a choice, like being born with brown skin.
No comparison will be completely comparable. I'm trying to picture that the op is absurd.
Nazis don't take over and steal cultures. They don't take over any musical genre and just because there are some nazis that like anime, doesn't mean anime is Nazi. That's just simple a fallacy and I can't comprehend why there are so many people arguing with me about it.
Yes it is. I can compare gala apples to kanzi apples.
The reason so many people are arguing with you about it is that you are wrong. You should accept that first, and then you can grow as a person. It's quite liberating.
This is different than any group having the potential to have Nazis and you know it.
When burzum one of the most well known black metal bands has a Nazi as its sole musician and its just accepted along with many other bands having straight up self admitted Nazis there is a fucking nazi problem. Most genres of music are not like this. This is like saying oh black metal isn't anti-Christian every group of people has christian haters there are only a few church burnings no big deal.
The first wave of black metal didn't have as much Nazis as the 2nd wave the Nazis infiltrated
black metal is not inherently nazi but it does have a lot of Nazis in it black metal still has a nazi problem.
Nazis do steal cultures they have been doing it since the beginning the swastica wasn't originally a symbol of hate the Nazis took it
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Socialist_black_metal
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_punk
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_Nazis
Football perhaps, maybe football away games. All the trouble that some hooligans cause abroad. Thankfully football might be too big to fail, but they do give it a bad vibe at the worst of times.
Football? I don't think people think of Nazis when they watch football
Then you need to do a little bit of reading and then come back.
I can do no reading and still be 100% right that people watching football are in large majority not Nazis.
Ah so you're missing the point then. Is it ignorance or purposeful, I wonder.
Maybe you should work on the presentation of your point. Or maybe you should work on your listening skills and try to understand my point?
Or is it purposeful, I wonder?
I'll take your imitation as flattering.
It's the entire point about Nazi appropriation of subcultures that you're missing, not any single point I've made.
They can have ska.
They can have nothing
Yep. I don't even want them to have country and I don't listen to any modern country.
A Caribbean genre revived by black marginalized youth in the formerly imperialist Thatcher's UK? Are you ...sure?
It’s a joke about ska being shitty.
But that scene has also had its own issues with Nazis.
I love ska especially punk ska
Booo!!!
Some ska for your fucking stupid gob.
Yeah that's just a bit ska but there's a bunch of revolutionary ska punk and it wrecks face.
Over my dead fucking body.
Alright. If you want it, you’re gonna have to skank for it.
Even this I would deny them.
I agree it seems harsh, but remember that these are Nazis.
Angry Oi! skin noises
Must be nice to live in this fantasy world of yours where there are no real problems.
No Russian war of aggression in Ukraine, no Palestinian genocide, no billionaire capitalists causing climate change and wealth inequality hitting levels not seen since the 1920 market crash - just happy feels with head in the Murdoch sand.
what privilege you must enjoy to be able to ignore fascism when everyone around you has to work on your behalf to maintain your freedoms.
good for you.
A billionare wormtongued his way into becoming a defacto shadow president of a nuclear armed superpower and you blame random leftists on lemmy? Go back to Reddit, you'll fit right in with the rest of the herd.
The only people causing problems in the world are leftists? What are you talking about?