Proton is dead (for me). Let's collect and discuss alternatives! ✊🛡
In an unexpected mask off "secure" email and VPN provider Proton took the stance of siding with the fascist MAGA Reps. Proton's services are no option for me and many others any longer. Let's collect and discuss alternatives (E2E encrypted email and VPN) here 🔐👇
Always try to provide:
-Server location (jurisdiction)
-Governance
-Integrity/trustworthiness/transparency
-User experience/ease of use (grade 1 to 10, lets take Proton as a benchmark with an 8)
-Pricing and links
If you know alternative setups, feel free to share, too.
#ProtonExodus
Background: https://lemmy.ca/comment/13913116
Edit:typo
727
Comments520
Sigh.
Goddammit. I'm so fucking tired.
This is how they win.
Like zombies, slow and steady, dumb and hungry
Perfect
Be tired with Tuta!
Am I the only that don't see this the same way as the rest? I am in way way endorsing or supporting MAGA, but they did take action against big tech (though for reasons of retribution) and I see Proton only acknowledging a good person being designated to lead the next antitrust efforts, apparently with a good track record.
Proton also acknowledges Lina Kahn who has done a great job, nominated under Joe Biden.
Ultimately, I feel like from a perspective of Proton, any win against Big Tech, is a good win, and I can't disagree.
There is a longer discussion to be had around how the dems were supported by oligarchs and I think that's what Proton is referring to, they decided to turn a blind eye under the Obama administration for instance. Bernie Sanders goes to lengths about this in this interview, illuminating: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzkgWDCucNY
So all in all, maga sucks, new pick probably good, and in my view, proton not actually endorsing maga/trump but just acknowledging a good pick.
Did I miss something?
The main part of the message that pissed me off was the idea that GOP sides with the “little guy”. First, it’s demonstrably false. Second, he is a tech CEO. He wouldn’t recognise a little guy before his security crew has time to forcibly remove him.
Yes I fully agree with you.
Does that claim alone warrant the absolute backlash though? I personally feel like no.
yes, that's a sane approach
Truly unhinged that they decided to come out on this. Fellas, you are fucking Swiss why throw yourself under the bus for the US election
Wow!
Of all companies, this is one I didn't expect.
Damn.
the good news is this is a lesson to never trust any entity whose role in the world is to accumulate capital
What's insane is that didn't Proton just recently announce they were converting to a non-profit?
Yes, they did: https://proton.me/blog/proton-non-profit-foundation
There is absolutely no way to verify any of Proton's privacy claims. Why should I trust one for profit company over another?
Why would this be unexpected?
Proton already handed over the IP of a climate protester to authorities several years ago, while boasting that they had a no log policy.
https://therecord.media/protonmail-forced-to-collect-an-activists-ip-address-in-police-investigation
Every time, in the past few years, that I bring this up, everyone just acts like I'm setting an impossible standard and no alternative exists.
Proton has been shady for years.
From reading that article it looks like they were only using and able to log the IP address when the person logged in to their protonmail account specifically - not VPN.
They even state that VPNs can not be forced to log under the same legal order and are treated differently so in this case it seems the activists were not using the VPN while accessing their emails.
Although I dont agree with even the logging of the email IP, it appears like the user shot themselves in the foot like that other case where someone used their real name in the username and that obviosly has to be logged in some way.
I didn't know about this. I haven't followed Proton closely for a while, but this...wow. Kinda lousy.
I wish I had heard of this earlier, that combined with these new political statements is enough for me to find something else.
Phew! For a moment I thought you were talking about the steam compatibility thingy.
When I was a kid, my parents took our family dog to the farm. If you see him, let him know he's a good boy!
I thought they were talking about the elementary particle—I was afraid we’d have to find some other way of manifesting our physical existence.
Aww man! AGAIN?!?
Misinformation. OP is advocating that you shoot yourself in the foot.
The CEO said something silly on Twitter which revealed either that (a) he shares an exceedingly banal opinion with literally half of America or (b) he's not above a bit of preemptive sycophancy to advance his (positive) anti-trust agenda.
There's nothing particularly scandalous in the offending tweet:
Proton is not owned Zuck-like by its CEO. It's controlled by a foundation with other stakeholders on the board, including the inventor of the Web himself. In its niche it is still by far the best option. Ditching it for a nebulous non-existent alternative because the CEO expressed a dumb and extremely commonplace opinion is just silly and self-defeating.
PS: to be clear, OP is peddling misinformation because it's not true that "Proton took the stance" of anything. It's the personal opinion of the CEO that's at issue. It's a major distinction. I find it disappointing that people interested in privacy would have such little respect for a private individual's right to have their own thoughts.
PPS: to be extra clear, my comments are about the post above, not stuff that people are reading elsewhere. But the substance stands. See discussion for detail.
I largely agree with what you’re saying, except the official Proton Mastadon account doubled down on that personal opinion. That seems pretty clear that it’s endorsed not just by that one individual on the board.
Link to Mastodon thread: https://mastodon.social/@protonprivacy/113833073219145503
Archives in case they delete it:
https://web.archive.org/web/20250115165213/https://mastodon.social/@protonprivacy/113833073219145503
https://archive.is/lBQd8
::: spoiler Text copy of their post:
Looks like backing up the post was a good call.
This doesn’t seem bad? Its true dems embraced the corporate side. The republicans suck and are only going after tech until tech bows down to them (like zuck has been doing) but the post isn’t really outrageous or worse than the first tweet
Are you trying to argue that R is less entrenched with rich oligarchs and corporate money than the Dems? Because I musk object if so.
No I’m saying Dems moved to the right and aren’t representing the people who historically have voted for them because they’re chasing the corporate donors and right wingers
Republicans have always been worst and still are.
Well on this specific detail we agree entirely!
Right? So much of this seems like people not able to tell if actions are good or bad independent of who takes the action. There's no way their team could ever do anything bad, and anything done by the other team is automatically bad.
God forbid you try to reinforce a rare good behavior from someone who's also done a lot of horrendous things.
Just puked a little after reading that.
Here’s what I don’t get: if the leadership at Proton believes this shit, why share it on social media at all? It clearly isn’t going to make anyone in the left happy. Are they trying to capture porn-loving MAGA?
Can you screenshot it? The link doesn’t load
Looks like they deleted it. @[email protected] posted these archive links above:
https://web.archive.org/web/20250115165213/https://mastodon.social/@protonprivacy/113833073219145503
https://archive.is/lBQd8
You have to look at their comments/replies or whatever. Someone above already posted the link.
Sorry, their comment hadn't been posted when i loaded the thread. Much obliged.
No worries!
Significant if true. But still. Proton has a great product and a lot of stored-up goodwill. I think the reasonable thing to do here is to wait and see, and to judge them on actions before words.
I’m not jumping ship yet and am waiting to see what, if anything, happens from here. Maybe it comes out that the same person has access to that official Mastadon account and echoed their opinion there… and maybe it comes out that his comments/actions are disavowed by the rest of the organization.
I’ll wait and see. But it’s not a great start.
Fair enough. But this whole drama is still completely substance-free. The air of US-style thought-policing bothers me.
I love how you’re claiming misinformation while posting misinformation. It’s not the CEO, it’s a board member. That said, the company also officially posted these ideas on their Bluesky account.
This isn’t a “CEO” expressing a belief, it’s the board, and now the official company line.
I’m not disagreeing with their post particularly on corporate dems, but this is a company and not a persons sole belief.
Also, if dems are the party of big business then why are all these big businesses donating to Trump? Does that just mean republicans are the party of even bigger business?
Their bullet points are spin-doctoring.
Also the comment got a few dozen upvotes almost immediately. Suspicious.
I was thinking the same thing. In all the threads about it. It just seemed oddly suspicious and not typical of what the digital privacy community has typically believed… I mean, I’m also not going to homogenize a community like that though and Proton has been a mainstay.
Both parties are the big business parties. Big business is “donating” (bribing) Trump now like all big businesses have done to both parties since citizens united passed.
This is all over the place.
My comment concerns the post above. OP cites a tweet and states a falsehood about it. No, "Proton" did not "take the stance" of anything in that tweet. Yes, Andy Yen is the CEO. Yes, that tweet is in his name and not in the name of Proton. I was not responding to other things that you've seen elsewhere.
Now, as for those other things elsewhere, I stick by the substance of my point. Sure, it's more of a problem that dumb things are being said in the name of Proton rather than just it's CEO. But look at the detail of those things. There is nothing scandalous. People are getting their underwear in a twist about extremely common opinions being expressed on Twitter. Personally I don't care if a CEO voted a different way to me, or even if a whole board did. This should not have any bearing on Proton's product or what makes it better than others. This is just another typically American culture-war drama. It's boring.
This is all over the place.
If you click the link in this post it takes you to a mastodon comment from the official Proton account stating exactly the same beliefs as this board member. If that isn’t in the name of Proton what is?
People ARE looking at the details of this. If this company starts cozying up to an alt-right “dictator for a day” government then when/where does this stop? There’s nuance beyond just Proton and Andy said something scandalous here. It’s layers of political issues that spell a privacy focused company having an inability to actually keep the government out of my shit.
Culture war would be if they took a stance on DEI. This is political and has actual consequences.
Why are you trying to defend a fucking corporation? When has a company ever not become evil as they look to grow? It’s just the nature of the beast. The people here, and the OP specifically, have called out Proton is over for them. They’re not saying you should do the same. Just that they’re going to take a step back and others expressing they’ll join.
I won't have a friend who supports Trump, because to do so is to support a regressive, bigoted, jackbooted view of the world and how things should be done. I don't speak to my Trump supporting family members except when family situations force us to.
WHY ON EARTH would I trust my privacy to a company whose entire board supports that view, much less their CEO?
correct
It isn't misinformation.
Someone like this board member being a traitor to his species isn't covered by "opinion". No normalizing nazis. It's such a low bar. He couldn't clear it.
He blasted his treachery over the public airwaves. His privacy isn't being violated.
This whole comment feels like an exercise in using all the best words to miss the point. We know, as does this probably-lying board member, that Republicans are only going to go more authoritarian, and the only reason they would pretend to care about big tech abuses is to grab the steering wheel from them to commit far worse abuses. No company that gets into bed with traitors is going to become the new center of my digital life.
Tuta for email, syncthing for photos bc I'm not self-hosting, mullvad for VPN.
You have to self host if you use synching
They probably mean forwardable ports, i.e. have isp-related problems with hosting servers.
Syncthing doesn't need you to host a server, it can hole-punch right through the worst cgnats.
Might also be intermittent syncing only when ops machine is running.
??? Lol? Imagine having an opinion in 2025
Sorry but I won't participate in this juvenile trivializing of the word "Nazi". Yes, I know that's become almost a meaningless slur at this point, but personally I just will not take seriously anybody who throws it around like this. Perhaps because I'm European. Perhaps because I studied history. It's not serious.
Mate they're mainstreaming fascist rhetoric. Over 60% of Republicans now believe in the Great Replacement theory aka White Genocide, which used to be a conspiracy theory on the fringes of white nationalist propaganda just about a decade ago.
I encourage you to not get hung up on symbolism and instead look to ideology and rhetoric.
Leaving aside the absurd and juvenile "Nazi" slur ("fascist" is less of a stretch), I disagree with your analysis. I think it's exactly the opposite. I think it's because mainstream politicians have refused to address the reasonable aspects of people's concerns (about immigration, in particular), and because progressive activists have gone off the leash in their wild accusations of racism at the slightest contradiction of their opinions, that we've ended up in this situation of the far right getting into power all over the place.
Once again: I do not vote for these parties. Anyway, we are now completely offtopic so let's leave it there.
So yes they're fascist, but the progressives complained too much about racism, and therefore it's fine to support the fascists?
IDK what to tell you but your political ideology is privileged garbage. You're more scared of being called racist than of fascism. The kind of "yes ethnic cleansing but please no mean language" attitude. Please get a political education and your priorities straight.
With your insults and condescension, you're just proving my point.
Yeah I never doubted you'd have a reason to dismiss being called out like that. Getting your feelings hurt invalidates everything else. I feel like I'm talking to myself from 10 years ago.
You don't have to take it from me. If you're a student of history, maybe start with Umberto Eco. He knew a thing or two about fascism, I've heard.
The biggest mistake we can make is to assume it can't happen again.
It's because you're a centrist.
Or because the left-right axis makes no sense
You say it like it's an insult! Actually I usually vote green. And in Europe the greens are really greens, rather than just spoilers who help Bushes and Trumps into power.
I didn't intend it to be directly insulting, but it seems like you're well aware how lemmy leans already and you're willing to double down on centrist stalling points anyway. With no realistic middle choices available, and none cropping up, Americans are a little more than a little tired of centrist talking points.
No, no it isn't arguably true. It's just flat out incorrect. 100% of people could vote for him or others like him out of fear of disappearing in the night if they don't. That doesn't make him or the party "for the little guy".
It doesn't matter that 51% of the country votes for the Republicans. The party has consistently shit all over "the little guy" and made him eat it for over 40 years, telling him he's eating shit and then said only the party can fix it.
All the while the party's been giving tax money to their friends and saying "don't worry, we're here now. you can feed him as much shit as you want. we'll find someone cleaning up shit and make the "little guy" think that person was making it instead. that way when you get caught doing it no one will believe it"
While true in some scenarios, in anti-trust Lina khan's ftc has done significantly more than trump ever did. Biden keeping her over the protest of countless business execs and daily articles in the wall street journal on how she's ruining America shows some commitment to prosecuting big tech.
Meanwhile, trump's anti-trust moves were mostly based off petty issues he had with the ceos or the platforms having a "liberal bias". Now that every big tech ceo has fallen in line and given him $1 million for his inauguration I doubt we'll see much movement on that front.
Completely agree on all that.
YOU POSTED the comment they are rebutting. And your reply to the rebuttal of your own comment is "completely agree?"
From what I remember pre-election news was saying wealthy dems/dem donors wanted Biden (and Kamala in some report I saw) gone primarily because they didn’t like what Lina Khan was doing. There were also questions about whether Kamala would continue to support Lina Khan after receiving donations from wealthy donors. JD Vance praised her work and it sounds like the Trump nomination is going to continue similarly.
I don’t like Trump at all and I know how petty and sycophantic he can be, but this may end up being one case where I end up preferring the result on this one specific issue over what we may have had if the dems had won without Kamala or if she flipped and agreed to drop Khan. I won’t really know how I feel about this selection until I see the result.
(Quick search turned these examples up that I’ve only skimmed, but I need to log off: https://www.politico.com/news/2024/10/24/kamala-harris-lina-khan-00185345 https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/kamala-harris-rich-donors-lina-khan/)
There's no fucking way they let her go on.
I'm ready to eat my words, but I expect her to disappear, or be limited to companies which did not fall in line to Musk/Trump.
The entire shtick of the next admin is deregulation, antitrust will not be welcome.
Except Proton's official Mastodon account made another post afterwords doubling down on the CEO's comments. They ended up taking down the post due to getting a ton of backlash
Their official reddit account also tripled down by saying "here is our official response" (and then quoting the Mastodon post). So they've explicitly made it the company's view - not just the CEO's view.
As a non-American I don't normally care about US politics or what "literally half of America" think but I am concerned with far-right politics spilling over in to my country. So I would naturally want to resist organisations aligning themselves with those politics, whether they are scandalous to Americans or not.
The privacy community is always told to verify, not trust. The board of Proton have decided to publicly state something that leads a lot of people to be unable to trust them - namely supporting the choices of an extreme right wing leader who has repeatedly demonstrated the foolishness of trusting anything he says or does.
This CEO is totally free to have their own thoughts but its verging on the ridiculous to think that other people aren't going to have a negative reaction to them and seek alternatives. Its next to impossible to trust a company that express approval of Trump decisions because its impossible to trust Trump. And Proton going out of their way to publicly state their approval when they are not even a US org and would've lost nothing by simply not saying anything suggests a board that was keen to publicly express support for Trump. It inevitably makes people who are already on the receiving end of Trumpian hate legislation, or who soon will be, wonder what else Proton might be willing to do for Trump in the future.
How is it true exactly? Republicans do not care about the little guys in any way lol
OP is responding to a public post and rationalizing why it's a red line for them. How is that "disinformation"?
Not American, but there is this regarding the third point: https://www.reddit.com/r/ProtonMail/comments/1i1zjgn/comment/m7b1wib/
Any thoughts here?
To me this whole demonizing proton ceo thing seems a bit overblown. Sucking up is actually pathetic and funny
If you've got an argument, make it.
Well the reddit comment says completely opposite of what you said - that trump didn't really increase / start with antitrust, but rather did the opposite.
Well it's either true or it's not. Did you bother looking it up to check?
Nothing that OP said is false, so we can’t characterize this post as “misinformation.” The CEO of Proton is, as a matter of empirical fact, dangerously delusional. The Republican Party is not interested in antitrust issues let alone protecting “the little guy.” They’re interested in corporate subservience, the paradigm of all fascist regimes. I’m not sure why you would feel comfortable with a service whose CEO is this childishly naive.
He said that "Proton took a stance". Until confirmation to the contrary, that is patently false.
Well said, my friend.
Did he defend the whole party? I thought he just said they picked someone who is going to so one good thing
Which is true.
I tend to agree. Don't blow this out of proportion. If you dig deep enough, you will not like the CEO of ANY company... so don't let some comments from the CEO of Proton get you worked up.
Nailed it, Americans get so offended and divided on these issues that they just throw reason and logic out the window
You are extremely ignorant. We have people marching through the streets with police protection chanting ‘Jews will not replace us".
That sounds like throwing reason and logic out the window, what's the context?
"People are being openly hateful to groups of people for no reason."
"Umm context???"
Imagine getting offended by someone asking for more details
Ding ding ding.
It seems the vast majority of people do NOT want to allow speech they don't like, no matter the consequences. That requires too much forward thinking. Excuse me while I watch history repeat itself...
Freedom of speech is not freedom from consequences. Nobody here is silencing speech, we are just exercising our right to free association by not doing business with Nazi sympathizers.
Oh I want him to be allowed to speak his mind. I just don't want to give a Trumpet any money, and especially not after their annoucement of a crypto wallet and ventures into AI crap.
Free speech doesn't mean I should spend my money there.
Ok bud. I'm not gonna weigh in with my actual opinion on the matter being discussed, I just wanted to point out that you've taken a few too many steps with that assumption lol
Not who you replied to, but how so?
I don't know anything about you, but for the sake of argument, imagine you're part of a marginalized group. Now, imagine that you use a product. The owner of said product has openly stated that they hate your very existence because you're part of that marginalized group. You have decided that this is a good reason to stop giving them your money.
When does free speech come into this? How does one person's money/profit affect another's right to speak? It doesn't. Choosing where you spend your money is you utilizing your freedom to express yourself via your wallet, just the same as they chose to express themself via words. Both the objector and the CEO are saying "I disagree with your views on the world and as such no longer desire your business". Well, maybe the CEO still wants your business.
Well I must have misread the context of your comment because I didn't need that explained and agree with you.
Of all the things that didn't happen, this didn't happen the most.
Sure, they just said they strongly support someone who has openly said that. Totally not the same thing
Yes I tend to share your analysis.
This may sound drastic but really I think the only move for Proton is fire Andy. They’re a non-profit, the board need to step in. He has single-handedly cost the company both current and potential customers by just not being smart enough to keep his mouth shut. This makes him an idiot, and an idiot as CEO is not a good look (see: anything musk)
I will continue to use Proton and their services, not because I support or endorse any political decisions from the CEO/board members (and I don't), but because they provide open source, secure, and private software that I love.
This is no different than arguing about using GrapheneOS based on the behavior of the maintainers.
Oh no... I use Graphene... what's the deal with the maintainers?
This video seemed to have been the start of an anti-GrapheneOS movement. I won't get into details, because it's been explained to death, but it's here for your convenience.
I use and love GrapheneOS as well.
Thanks for the video, much appreciated. Never paid much attention to the project beyond their website... and I'm glad that's as far as I've gone lol
Don't bother videos against GrapheneOS. The lead of GrapheneOS has autism and he lacks social skills. This creates endless loop of hate talk between some YouTubers and GrapheneOS.
As a technical project, GOS is far superior and it is the most secure OS on the planet right now. The lead of the GOS has developed hardened malloc and various other security solutions that is now baked into GrapheneOS. So I would ask people to enjoy the project rather than stimulating more fuss against the project.
Heads up: autism isn't a defense, it's a condition.
It is when the guy was swatted
Louis Rossman has bad understanding of FOSS remember
At least GrapheneOS isn't something I'd pay for
Nope, they don't share their server code. Not cool.
If its open source, where's the fork? Someone can provide "electron". No, "quark"?
Or... lemmy lol
The CEO "apologized" this morning (after being duly chastised, I'm sure):
Original post: https://www.reddit.com/r/ProtonMail/comments/1i2nz9v/on_politics_and_proton_a_message_from_andy/
Am I being paranoid when I notice that the binary at the end of his username translates to 88?
Remember when businesses stayed the fuck out of politics so they didn't alienate their customers because they like money? Pepperidge Farms remembers.
I own and operate https://port87.com/, and in no way am I even close to right wing. I don’t call myself a liberal, and get offended when people do, because I’m a leftist.
It’s not ready for business email yet, but it’ll work for your personal email.
"Proton? Why the fuck would he be mad at a WINE fork...?"
"... OH THE MAIL-"
Trump's terrible politics aside:
the Republican party is pushing legislation which requires you to identify yourself to view porn
you can get around this with a VPN
proton is a VPN (nonprofit, but still).
I'll be switching email providers when I can... I can't remember when my subscription ends.
If a car company in Germany complemented Hitler on his paintings, would it be still fine to buy their cars? And what if they were a really great car company and only mentioned how cool Hitler's paintings were and nothing else?
I sort of feel like if I am cool with Proton's statement, then I also am cool with trans people and Latino people and Gazan people being treated poorly, and I'm not actually cool with that.
It's unfortunate, because despite Proton not accepting XMR and logging IPs when they promised they wouldn't and doing other questionable practices, they have a lot of great services. But now, it's like if I'm using their services, I'm sort of spitting on the grave of every trans person who ended their life out of shame, spitting on the grave of every dead Gazan who simply didn't want to die, and being disrespectful to all the cool Latinos out there who have been degraded simply out of racism.
:-(
Abandoning the Proton subscription now. How stupid and irresponsible. In fact, are running away from all your principles.
If they think Dollar Store Hitler is going to stand up for small businesses then they're about to have a rude awakening.
Mullvad is supposed to be a safe and secure VPN.
Unfortunately not a mail or storage provider.
If this wasn't enough of a wakeupcall to not put all the eggs in one basket then what is? Companies are literally doing this to lock you into their service so it's harder to switch since you then have to find X new services instead of just one.
Better go with one that'd specialized for each service you need...
Posteo, Mailbox.org, and Tuta are all good alternatives.
EDIT: Mailbox.org will eventually recycle your address if you stop using their service. Something to be aware of.
There are 2 kinds of companies:
What this means in this case is that only your own E-Mail server running on a Raspi in your own home can be considered private or secure in the long run. Unfortunately this is really really hard to do, which is the only reason i have not done it yet.
Personally i do not consider any E-Mail private, because E-Mail is not E2E-encrypted, and 99.9% of times one side of the conversation is going to be hosted on some shady companies servers.
Of course Proton delivers a great service, because they make an insecure protocol a little less insecure, and i personally use Proton mail. Unfortunately their closed-source nature makes it impossible to switch providers without abandoning their great software.
As for services like Drive, they can actually be hosted privately and securely on your own Raspi with stuff like NextCloud/OwnCloud.
For those that can't/don't want to self-host, i would recommend paying for a hoster that hosts FOSS software and contributes to it either with money or code. In that case you would probably loose E2E-encryption, but gain the ability to switch providers once your provider turns on you. In that case at least some of your money would continue to offer value to you by having improved the software you are still using.
OK I think I will move to Posteo. Great security, privacy focussed, servers in Germany, running with 100% renewable energy. Prices are ok, too. Ticks all boxes.
Maybe not the contribution that you're looking for, but going to tell you this story regardless.
I am Swiss, and am a former Department of Foreign Affairs (FDFA / EDA) employee. My colleagues and I had organized an evening on cybersecurity, where we showcase what Switzerland has to offer. I invited stakeholders such as:
Firstly, when speaking to a delegate of one of the above listed (don't feel comfortably sharing publicly which one), he ushered a statement; upon me saying I'm a huge Proton fan and subscribed to all services - "they are lying to your faces".
I was curious, so I spoke with the regulators and NCSC delegates, they said that Proton has been involved in a handful of leaks - some that were made public, some behind the scenes.
When I spoke to Andy, having told him that I grew up in Canada, I asked him what his plan was for North America. His response: "I will gladly take their money, but never open up shop there - too many national security departments that come knocking on the door".
Now I see that (on the Proton page), that they are looking for a few US based positions for Marketing and Growth - going against what we discussed a few years back. In all honesty, I still have a Plus subscription with them, but beginning to questions a lot more things regarding security and ethics at Proton. Guess I'll just self-host in the future. Trust no one but yourself with your personal data.
Tuta.com is similar to Proton Mail + Calendar.
Location: Germany
Governance: Private GmbH (German corporation, similar to an American LLC)
Integrity/trustworthiness/transparency: Better than Proton IMHO. All their apps are open source and available on F-Droid. They encrypt email headers (unlike Proton, who are weaselly about this in their marketing materials).
User Experience: Ehhhh...6? I'm not in the best position to compare because I do not have a premium plan, so I am not able to examine features like inbox rules/filters. Much like Proton, it doesn't support full-text email search unless you have it cache your entire mailbox locally (either via the web site or app). They do not support POP or IMAP, but do offer their own desktop and mobile apps.
Pricing: €3/month for 20GB, €8/month for 500GB. https://tuta.com/pricing
Yep, I've been using Tuta for email for years now, just the free version.
No IMAP is a killer
Thank you!
I'm currently on Tuta, because I can't imagine Mail without a free tier. It's run out of Germany(EU). Its 3€ a month for the normal tier, free takes away most features. Like Proton, you need to use their (OSS)-Client, for encryption reasons. It's currently growing and I hope they don't go crazy anytime soon.
I was looking at Posteo, but I don't want my entire internet identity to be gone, if I ever can't pay for it.
Tweet is from early december. Why is it blowing up now?
I guess on the one hand people are anxious about Trumps inaugeration and on the other hand this is a great opportunity for competitors or otherwise opposed people to launch an astroturfing campaign off of it.
When looking at posts titled has gone "full MAGA" for saying they feel Trump is more likely to enact antitrust rules against big tech than Democrats who let them down the past years, is just absurd.
It is the same line of reasoning like claiming the WHO to have been a chinese asset because they supported some of Chinas anti-Covid measures.
Because it was just now retweeted by the founder of Privacy Guides.
I just got settled for fuck's sake
I don’t use proton, but I would be grateful if you could share a link on how Proton sided with fascists.
Also, I use Mullvad for VPN and I host my own email
Huh, I wasn’t very concerned with your links… but I googled and found out Andy Yen is the founder. That’s alarming
True, but Tim Brenners-Lee is also on the board, and he historically has generally good takes on tech and politics.
People are often unwilling to go against the positions of the guy who created the World Wide Web.
If his presence at proton is the old thing holding back the stupid, then it isn't as good a company as we has been thinking.
Libertarian and Republicans have nothing in common do not mix
There is a Venn diagram where all of us overlap.
Even the US Republicans and Trump supporters are distinct with some overlapping values.
I've said it in another thread: German users should consider posteo as a green, safe, and affordable (1€/M) alternative. https://posteo.de/de
Why wouldn't you tell them the reason?
Right, good point.
Or, do bring it up and if they're a douche, contact your credit card company and have them issue a chargeback to the company (which costs them money). I've done this before to shitty companies that tried to deny legitimate refunds, it works.
I believe they offer refunds if you cancel within 30 days.
Sooo, can we not create and/or finance our own? Please be gentle…but…is there not enough of us paying for proton and other privacy apps to fund a floss or non-profit version? I mean there are tech nerds all over this place, along with law nerds and political nerds…etc..(meant with love btw) that would have an instant user base.
I pledge here to sub up to $15usd/month for any lemmy person that starts an entity that provides us with what we need with ethics and morality of lemmy common.
I think I would wait for changes in their mission and policies before I start moving anything.
AFAICT, it looks like all he's doing is praising 🍄's pick for AG in the Antitrust division . . . although if you look over her Wikipedia page, you're right, it doesn't look all that encouraging.
Can someone on Mastodon ask the Proton CEO what it was exactly that she did that he likes so much? Anyone who can work at Fox for any length of time, frankly, is complete and utter shite.
EDIT: Also, just as a broken clock can be right twice a day, 🍄 sank the Trans Pacific Partnership, which was the right thing to do, but for the wrong reason: mainly to get back at Obama for existing. So in the same way, I suppose it's possible that Slater did something good, but I'd sure like to know what it was.
this idea of if you use a product you have to support every belief the company have is absolutely insane, like why can't you recognize that a company's products and it's beliefs are two separate things? yeah the beliefs do effect the product but not all of them (especially not in this case like bro its ceos personal belief), why are we living in a time where you either have to %100 support something or you have %100 be against it? the fact that even a small political stand that someone dont agree with can turn them against a company or even a person is crazy to me
anyway i understand you made this choice and even tho i dont agree with the reasoning ill also provide 2 alternatives for vpn: mullvad and ivpn, both dont require email for account creation and accept monero payment, you probably heard them before
for email i suggest hosting your own if you have the time, there is this great project named docker-mailserver and its really easy to setup, but if you dont want to go through the effort feel free to check numerous alternatives others provided
This is amazing. People were perfectly okay with ignoring all the red flags in Proton and their products and really okay with buying all their bullshit, then a tweet saying Trump comes up and that's it. lol
My personal recommendations:
https://uberspace.de
https://www.hostsharing.net
Other recommendations:
Excuse my ignorance, but why is Germany a good place for privacy vs proton's Sweden?
And also eg, versus a non EU nation ?
https://digitalcourage.de/blog/2021/history-german-privacy-movement
TLDR: The Gestapo and Stasi
"uh uh. you aren't doing that shit to me again"
meanwhile, on the other side of the atlantic
"spy on me daddy"
US never had fascism, so they're experimenting and learning the hard way
oh man. we're the og fascists. our policies inspired european fascism. we've done all the key components of a fascist regime before: the forced labor, the death camps, the mass surveilance, the overt militarism, the desperate need to expand and get rid of the people who were already there
Systemli requires an invite code last I checked? Disroot does not.
Thanks!
Nextcloud is an amazing alternative to things like google suite or Office365. You can.self-host it or rent space on a server with nextcloud preinstalled. It integrates things like file storage, online office, podcast, rss feed reader, photo albums, etc. There's litteraly hundreds of apps that can easily be installed. I was a big user of the G suite, made the change last year and couldn't be happier. It's much more powerful than I was expecting and no evil gafam get access to my data.
I've been using Posteo for email since 2020. Love it. Mullvad for VPN.
Before you decide to go back to Google or close your account, keep in mind that Proton became a non profit organization with the main mission of protecting your privacy. And as a non profit, they're not trying to profit off of you in any way.
Going back to Google is the worst solution you can use. Remember that Google donated $1 million to Trump's inauguration fund. Google also doesn't care about your privacy. On the contrary, they're selling your data and using it against you.
While the Proton CEO may be a nut case, he's only praising the choice that Trump made as the candidate for the antitrust department. While that's understandably stupid since I don't believe Trump is going up stick up for the little guy now that he's got Musk and Zuck in his pocket, at least he didn't actively donated and enabled Trump either personally or through his platform and spread misinformation.
Think about it.
At least with proton, the fact that you're different, that you're 2SLGBTQ+, is safe. Or at least substantially safer than Google.
They have doubled down officially with their official Mastodon account https://mastodon.social/@protonprivacy/113833073219145503 I therefore consider this official opinion of Proton. Focussing on one aspect and completely ignoring the bigger picture of a luming fascist period in the most militarized economy of the world is just inacceptable. Proton just could have kept their mouth shut, but they decided not to.
This is extremely disappointing. :(
Toot has been deleted.
Why are there so many responses like this, saying not to go back to Google? The OP didn't even mention Google as an option they were considering. I've seen zero discussion in any of the other posts around the fediverse where people have expressed any desire to use Google because of this. Why would anyone think that users who had already moved to Proton would find Google acceptable as an alternative right now?
This just feels like you're trying to discourage actual conversation about alternatives by acting like the only options are Proton or Google, so we all ought to shut up and sit down.
Also, if you think merely becoming a non-profit means a corporation can never exploit people and isn't interested in making money off of it's customers, then I've got a bridge to sell you.
Because I looked at the discussion threads for this post and I saw a few early comments where people mentioned they would go back or stick with Google.
I'm not trying to shut down or discourage any discussion. Just pointing out to the people who said they'd go back that it's not the best solution.
Yes, proton is about ten thousand times better than google, even with this board member's stupid fully factored in.
Safer.
Well, they handed out activists' metadata in the past, for the French authorities. In their position of an e2ee provider who controls both ends as a default, they are in a position where the can fuck people over. This is exactly what Snowden described as someone pointing a gun at you while saying "Relax, I am not gonna use it against you."
So much for safety.
Ah, and my original point was: it is either safe or unsafe, the word saf_er_ means nothing during a genocide.
IIRC, this was because the user in question had set a recovery email for their account, which Proton either volunteered or was forced to give to the authorities. Definitely crappy behavior on Proton's part. Don't set a recovery email!
Worth mentioning Snowden used Lavabit. There's a great history there.
source
But what is the status now? Also, I think in the years to come the jurisdiction will also play a role. If the service is in the soil of a country that can subpoeana the encryption keys, then nobody is really safe.
Yes, Lavabit shutdown. Its the only option they had to protect their users.
The take away is to never use an email provided in an oppressive country like the US.
OpenAI was also a non-profit until a few months ago
No, Proton actually just went from being a company to a non profit recently for the purpose of remaining a privacy focused organization whose mission won't change.
Why treat Proton like it's the work of a single person rather than a large team?
Currently exploring my options, thinking of switching to Tuta. It sucks because I literally just paid for a Proton annual plan, looking if I can cancel it and get (part of) my money back...
God damnit I literally just got Proton going like 4 days ago.
It seems there aren't any exact replacements, but this probably lists service providers to consider: https://www.privacyguides.org/en/email/
Does DisRoot count ? It has a myriad of services that are all FOSS tools Has a "Hub-App" on Fdroid
I'll still continue using proton, as I haven't seen them staying from their goal just yet, but I'd love to see some alternatives non the less.
Thank fuck I didn't get that subscription, I was looking into getting a secure mail service. I engaged with people calling proton a CIA honeypot, investigating what was up with the rumors and I was about to jump into bed with proton.
I use mailbox.org its pretty sweet
Server locations: Riseup is in the US (Washington state), so keep that in mind. Disroot is in the Netherlands (part of the EU).
Governance: Riseup: Look at their “about us” page. Disroot: Look at their “about” page. The terms of service are more detailed. tl;dr: As far as I can tell, these are run by leftists.
Integrity/Transparency: I have no idea how to grade this.
Ease of Use: Subjective. Riseup VPN is just: install the client, turn it on or off. Disroot is much better with a mail client of some kind, so if you already use one, it’s probably a 10, otherwise, the webmail server isn’t that great. Disroot also requries manual encryption (I’m biased here because I use Kmail which makes PGP really easy to use).
Pricing and Links: Free https://riseup.net/en/vpn https://disroot.org/en/services/email
tl;dr: Use collective-run services, not corporate-run services
You could look at infomaniak, but I didn't have the best experience trying out (or even getting started with) their services. Finding a provider that has all of Proton's apps is going to be tough (or at least it was from me while I was looking to escape from Tuta). Good luck, tho.
EDIT: Infomaniak is on F-Droid!
EDIT EDIT: Infomaniak is only available in Europe! Infomaniak is only available with a European phone number, so using a VPN won't help! 🙁👎
I agree! I don't use Proton's VPN or their password manager for that reason. The equivalents I had in place already were fine and I didn't feel the need to switch over everything, just some things.
So is bitwarden, you don't have to use their servers.
+1 for keepass. Been using it for years and love it.
Escape from Tuta for what reason if you're willing to share? I see it recommended a lot.
Oh boy, getting old here, let's see if I can remember.
I think in part it was because they seemed unable to fix the Linux desktop client after months and months and months, and repeated support requests. Also, I had been a user of theirs for some time when they changed how their plans worked, and moved a feature I relied heavily upon (I think it was email templates—something you might never need!) to a much more expensive plan. Felt like I was being charged more for being a longtime user. I don't know if they have cloud storage now, but at the time they didn't, and Proton had that, along of course with mail and calendar—all of that for less than what Tuta was offering which was mail, calendar, and plenty of other features that were continuously promised but never released. So really just a bunch of little things that were important to me, but which other users might never miss.
Thanks for the writeup. It helps to know where to look to make an informed decision, when I finally have the time to sit down and de-google.
Damn it my two year subscription just got refreshed...
Uhg. How much longer until it's more viable to self host...
I will prefer to pay Zoho Mail instead of supporting Proton Mail. I was just holding into them because of their support to privacy and security but the lack of support to Linux and now this. I will move on.
ZoHo's CEO is no better https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sridhar_Vembu#Political_views
I've been doing research into this because I want to degoogle. Looking for hosted and secure Mail, Calendar, Drive... maybe docs if possible. I don't mind paying as long as I'm a customer and not a product to be sold.
My short list was: Mailbox.org, Zoho, and Notion.
Then there are the services I don't understand as much because I don't really want to self host or step into server maintenance... NextCloud, OwnCloud, LibreCloud, OnlyOffice. Maybe someone could straighten me out with those if I'm off base.
I've been very happy with disroot.org, but you have to do your own encryption (I use Thunderbird).
I think I pay $10 per year for 5 GB, but they have a free plan.
I was mulling moving everything from Google to Proton. Guess I'll keep my money for now.
Thanks for this post. Any alternatives for Drive specifically?? Including self-hosted options
I swear by Njalla, which is run by Peter Sunde
I've been using Runbox for many years and it's weird i don't see recommendations.
i wanted to move my google stuff to Proton this year as a Backup for my self hosted stuff. Shame, seems like I need to put a little more time into managing my self hosted stuff
Sync supports unencrypted data. If you accidentally click a button, everything becomes unencrypted. With tresorit, its always encrypted.
You might also want to check mega too. Its cheaper.
I have been on Opalstack since they started. I like them. I pay for hosting monthly. I've self-hosted several apps there (or tried to, sometimes; I couldn't make everything work all the time). Nextcloud is dodgy; I like it, but it's a pain in the ass for someone like me (not a dev, not a coder) to deal with the almost inevitable problems every 2 or 3 times I need to upgrade. And I've never been able to get an office suite working well. Much of this could be because I'm trying to run NC on shared hosting; even opalstack's support doesn't fix all of that.
Email: opalstack has email. I use it. I don't actually know what service it is, but I have three or four mailboxes linked to a couple of domain names I own, and several hundred email addresses* Thunderbird does great with IMAP on my laptop, desktop, and phone, with opalstack as the server.
*lots of emails because when I sign up for something I create a new email address just in case they sell my stuff and I start to get spam.
is tuta the new pick for custom domain email?
Mailbox.org is another good one.
EDIT: Apparently they recycle addresses, so if you ever cancel your subscription with them, someone could eventually sign up with your old address and receive any mail from places you didn't switch over to a new address, which is concerning.
I was considering them until I found out they allow the re-registration of previously used addresses. If you don’t log in for a year or so, someone else can take over your address and potentially gain access to various accounts you’ve registered with it.
Interesting. Not having this fucked me on tuta.
I hadnt signed into tuta for some years, then I learned they killed my account. I had another service tied to that account, which wouldn't let me login without an OTP sent to the email on file. I tried to re-register the account on tuta, but they refused. So I lost access to both accounts :(
FYI, Posteo will never delete your account, and will still let you log in and receive emails even if you stop paying (you won't be able to send emails until you pay the $1 a month again).
They apparently will only recycle your address if you explicitly delete your account yourself.
Wasn't aware of that, thanks for the heads up.
I don't know about "the pick" but it was mine. Six months ago I looked around and decided to stay with Tuta for now. Encrypted email + calendar, on my custom domain, is all I need though. Ymmv
I only need email but they seem decent and much cheaper for multiple custom domains. They were one of the options I looked at before I signed up for proton and looks like they’ve improved a lot since, too
Whatever you choose, remember that ease of migration is important. So for email buy your own domain name and use a service like mailbox.org that allows custom domains and full IMAP access.
As far as I can tell from posteo's own FAQ site, they do not allow custom domains. I'd really consider swithcing to them otherwise. Do you use posteo?
I literally just asked their support about this last year and they confirmed they intentionally don't offer this option.
Woops I think I was thinking of mailbox.org who does support domains.
Fair mistake to make, they have a very similar colour scheme I can see. Happy to hear of yet another mail provider to consider, I want to hear about as many as possible; I want to make the right choice
Yeah I get them confused constantly hah.
At least with your own domain name and IMAP, changing email providers is pretty quick and easy.
So literally one guy can change your entire network lifestyle?
In all seriousness, I genuinely feel like the demographics of those making over 250K/year outside of Silicon Valley (proton is from Switzerland which is a center-right country), and outside of the arts industries, is probably bare minimum of lib-center, and probably most likely to be at least fiscally conservative, if not socially as well. Those kind of people are more concerned with maintaining their financial position than the issues plaguing the income classes that the individual has graduated out of.
I don’t think you’re going to find many CEOs that aren’t at least a little right of center or self serving in their business interests.
Getting to the top 1% income bracket is a lot easier than maintaining that financial position.
Your analogy/ example is fucked up and beyond stupid. Protonmail is hosted by the organization. Linus has no access to the Linux systems in the world. Also, thousands have contributed to the Linux ecosystem.
He directly profits from Proton subscriptions. As does the rest of the leadership which seem to back him on this.
A comparison between singing the praises for a modern proto-fascist movement and "secretly loving Windows" is... certainly something.
I secretly love your post.
I think you misread my comment. I didn't call you a fascist, I simply called out two points where your comparison falls flat.
How dare you find a tone to respond that makes me regret my original harsh choice of words a little? :P Still - my point was that no matter how much Torvals is involved, the linux ecosystem isn't under his control, while proton services are very much under corporate control, and if their CEO decides to introduce a backdoor for american nazi services, that can happen.
Have you been following the news though? The 180 policy swings the moment it seemed good for business under a new administration in the divided states? Is it really so far-fetched to worry about a dipshit at the top of a company?
been using https://migadu.com/ for a few months now and its pretty great
disroot
depending on your politics, autistici
Been super happy with NordVPN for years.
People will complain about them advertising on YouTube. Why would I care about that? Companies advertise.
People will complain about them not having port forwarding. This doesn't matter for the majority of VPN users. If it does, use a different one.
So long, and thanks for all the fish
Ive been using proton for a little more than a year now and I think that the service is one of the best out there. That, and their privacy guides in their blog are great as well. I think abandoning ship this early isn't really a need. I've abondonded things like Plex for jellyfin due to Plex starting to feel very commerical. As others have pointed out, the governing of the company may keep one individuals views from interfering with the products. With that said, if your beliefs swing opposite, i see how it can leave a bad taste and make it worth keeping an eye on the direction of the company.
Looks like the mastodon thread was deleted. Did anyone manage to archive it?
systemli.org
https://soverin.com/
I personally don't care. If their code changes, I'm out, but this shit is par for course. Capitalists are largely all capable of these decisions.
using services based on the ceo's political leaning instead of actual features and policies of that service? that's dumb, tell me when that political leaning reflects in polices of proton then we can talk
I guess the assumption is that over time they inevitably will have an effect and people want to switch before that happens.
You're both right. I'd do the same to jump ship before the enshitification sets in. Often, I've seen how innocuous policy and feature changes creep in and before you know it, the switching costs are too high.
I had an app on my phone and one day they removed the export function. I only used it for backing up my data but when they raised rates and started slamming with ads, I wanted to leave but could not take my data with me. I ended to just uninstalling and starring over elsewhere.
Also, this is exactly what happened to reddit. They cut the api first so it was harder to take your communities and saved stuff with you.
why exactly is it inevitable? and why should we switch before it happens?
The service themselves also made a Mastodon thread (which has since been deleted) supporting the Republican party
Recent post from the Proton Reddit account: https://archive.ph/quYyb
Seems it's not just the CEO's personal opinion.
Just looking for a free alternative..
StartMail, netherlands. runs StartPage, a searchengine. politically engaged company in europe. pro GDPR & eu politicians being educated more than they have been. POP & IMAP, i use clients like ArcaneChat on android and ThunderBird on desktop.
MullvadVPN, sweden. have been raided by police and have hade no data to disclose. 5€ a month for up to five devices. does DAITA and multihopping. has own client, streamlined to use, also performs as well with wireguard.
As a Brit, I'm not offended by the Proton CEO's post. I don't like Donald Trump BUT I do like that he has hired someone who should be tough on tech anti-trust moves. This is very important.
Americans can be obsessed with their electoral system, but the rest of us don't have to pretend to support the Democrats or Republicans. I don't necessarily agree with all of Andy Yen's take regarding the two parties, but I'm not offended enough by it to boycott Proton, certainly not based on one tweet. I can also see the pragmatic benefit to his position by massaging trumps well known fragile ego.
I dont know of any alternatives but I will use Zoho Mail for now with my own domain. As they are cheap and reliable. I been using them for my business and it is great.
Tuta and Mailbox.org allow custom domains.
I just wish zoho would hide my IP when I use their SMTP. I get that's how mail headers have always worked but it blows my mind that it's still standard practice to expose the IP of your mail server or home network.
Disroot lets you use a custom domain for the price of one coffee per month
I know Google just donated to Trump's inauguration, and also does all the stupid surveillance capitalism crap that Google does, but I just compared prices, and Google Workspace is a few dollars per month cheaper per user than Proton is, for my needs (family, custom domain names, etc)
We've been on Proton for a few years, and it's fine, but we do also have Pixel Android phones, and not using Google services constantly feels like swimming upstream, plus all family members also still end up having to use Google services for work, anyway
It's just not practical for me to de-Google, which is a shame, so I think I'll be switching in a few months, unless pricing changes significantly :S
I prioritize ease of use, reliability, basic features not behind a pay wall, solid support and ease of use through Thunderbird so I don't have to visit the awful web version of said mail program. While I had mentioned that I was on Tutamail, I did a search of them and found a Reddit post about them weighing pros and cons. The cons I read of them go against a little of the things I'm after.
So reluctantly, I had to go back to GMail. I spent over 20 minutes migrating, resetting, re-routing many addresses to my newer GMail. I know that privacy is neither here or there on surface web stuff so I don't care about privacy regarding that. I'll start caring about privacy when I sign up for more personalized things and that's where Tutamail is going to come into play.
Damn dude. I swear I can't wait for AI to program everything so I don't have to keep track of the shitty things people do because we are a shit species.
This reads like an angry response to what Proton has been doing very recently.
Take a moment to reflect how you started to use their services. Really think about what you thought at the time about them being the right service for your needs.
Did anything really change for you, other than thinking your porn download history is now as safe as Nazi gold in Switzerland?
Take the next step, and don't look back.
Wow, lots of people on Lemmy just look at screenshots of text and dont read anything anymore.
I dont think he said anything controversial. Read what he wrote.
He's not supporting Trump or the Republican party in general. He is calling them out for selecting someone good on antitrust. That's not controversial.
LMAO! This is the type of person who would leave Steam if Gabe endorsed Trump.
Apple has recently declared that they're keeping their DEI programs in contrast to other tech companies, so I suppose Lemmy crowd would approve that? Their CEO being openly gay since 2014 probably works as some sort of a guarantee, at least as long as he keeps being the CEO.
So I'll suggest: Apple hardware + icloud. User experience (with apple hardware) 10/10. Pricing: Hardware price + monthly cost. Integrity: who knows, but they seem to deriving their income from their devices more than many other things.
Monthly cost depends on geographical location and storage size, but in EU area per month:
That storage and cost can be shared with up to 5 family members.
I used this for a long time and it worked really really well. But it really does practically depend on having Apple devices, preferably on every level. I recently moved to Proton because I wanted to move to Linux, but I do miss the UX and reliability quite a lot. Icloud's web service isn't bad though but wasn't good enough for me.
Can we stop stooping to their level and quit the 'fascist' rhetoric. How can ppl like OP not recognize they revel in anyone antagonizing with the absurd 'fascist'. All the mud-slinging is exactly how all this got so messed up so quickly
Also who's going to mailbox with me?
US Politics is cartoons level antagonizing
why are so many people going apeshit with marketing and PR? yeah the guy seems to be a sycophant, licking boot to protect his business, while throwing out a couple of unfortunate truths
if or when Trump finally condenses the fascistic and white supremacist tendencies of the US overtly into the regime, would you expect Proton to lead the resistance? maybe Ben & Jerry's? or some other progressive BS posturing company?
why are we talking about what Proton stands for? it is not a person with ideologies...fuck corporate personhood
people looking for "good companies" is just sad
Wow. Sweet tantrum. Hope it pays dividends. I've seen enough, Lemmy. G'bye.
Lol dont be a child
tell me, are your human rights personally challenged by the trump administration? mine are, and I would like to maintain what rights I have now
Yes you are describing the intent of a boycott.
for some of us, particularly queer, black, trans, women, immigrant, and indigenous people, the stakes are higher than "i don't personally agree with the ceo of proton." our lives are being endangered both by the new admin's policies as well as the emboldened cult associated with it.
this is not a "spaz" (offensive term by the way, so thanks for that) or brat move. it's simply us doing what people always say to do: voting with our wallets. this move is bad for a lot of people. i'm thrilled for you that it's not bad, but i ask you to see us saying it is bad not as your enemy, but as people who are vulnerable asking you to take a longer look at the bigger picture
*The Right:* The market should be free to decide.
*The Market:* Decides
*The Right*: OUtrAgEOuS
We aren't in an age anymore where differing political opinions are harmless. People aren't debating mere tax policies anymore. Wake the fuck up.
The -40 votes on this brings the happy.