Yeah, I wish they'd promote the Green party here.
But with our voting system they have to promote the nazis directly.
Which they are unfortunately doing very successfully, along with fucking Elon Musk.
America, could you please keep your billionaires to yourself? They're annoying as hell.
I don't subscribe to the notion that where you were born defines what nationality you are.
He speaks English, not Afrikaans. He lives in the US, has US citizenship, made his billions in the US, owns several US companies, and the president elect of the US lovingly caresses his dick every night with his wet, pouting lips.
I don't subscribe to the notion that nationality is a real thing, period. I could just as easily argue that none of that matters and he's "South African" because that's where he was born and I subscribe to the notion that nationality is something that never goes away.
You're the one insisting that he's American for some reason. Maybe don't make a big deal about things that are fake, don't matter, and you have idiosyncratic options about. It doesn't matter, which was the entire point of my comment.
It does matter, and he's American in absolutely every way that matters.
He's the ideal that the current American society and culture idolizes. Whether you like to admit it or not.
or else is being demonized by the democratic establishment or democrat voters.
The party that only exists to siphon Dem votes and help Republicans win isn't universally loved by Democrats? Wow that's so crazy, I can't imagine why that would be.
It's almost as if they were a primary reason Trump won the first election and became relevant in the first place. It's almost as if the entire MAGA movement is only as big as they are because of the Green Party's role in that first election...
It's a total mystery why anyone would be unhappy with Stein 🤷♂️
They aren't. The fact that so many people seem to be disenfranchised by the 2-party system but 3rd party candidates aren't winning in local/state elections across the country prove that 3rd parties aren't putting in the effort.
The point is the same as it was during the late stages of the election, third party needs a massive grassroots movement from early on in order to have traction by post-primary stages in the main parties’ cycles.
True, but they won't do it because they're not serious. It's performative as much as it is spoilage. I'll be super impressed if one third party is able to be nationally recognized with more than a token presidential candidate in four years.
And do what, canvas when there's no election and get even more doors slammed in your face.
Yeah the green party isn't campaigning in the off season, but neither are Republicans or democrats because nobody cares. Half the people only pay attention to politics the week before the election.
You know there's more than just the presidency... Right? Right? Building locally gcssroots doesn't mean showing up for the presidential cycle every four years. You understand this, right?
I don't know about the Trump promoters, but a lot of the people vocally supporting Harris are very much still here, commenting about other topics. A few (but only a few) of the third-party supporters are still here too, for that matter (notable example: @givesomefucks).
That's how you can tell they're real users, rather than shills being paid to push an agenda: they didn't go away when the job ended.
This thread is not about people's appetite for political discussion, or whether they're misguided enough to only pay attention to the Presidential election instead of building their party from local offices on up. It's about whether they were ever legitimate at all to begin with.
The election is over, did you expect them to keep telling you to vote 3rd party when there is no election to vote for them in? Perhaps you noticed that all the "Vote Harris" commercials stopped too?
You're not going to believe this but most of that is happening in meatspace communities because right now we're in a phase of local community action. There aren't larger scale elections that catch the focus of greater social media. Some states do have governors coming up this year but you probably won't see general or local election stuff unless you're deep in some board specifically for a city or state.
Now what you might see people talking about unionizing efforts and you maybe have been seeing some memes about a mario brother.
Yup, but most likely it'll be crickets until a month or two out from the next election when they'll turn on their shiny lights and attract all the assholes that think showing interest and voting for a 3rd party right before an election, and only right before an election, is actually going to do something.
In fact no. These are the very same people that prefer a dictator to take de facto power over the will of the people( see Venezuela) just because the will of the people doesn't align with their ideology this time
I mean, yeah, sure. There's a lot of fucking scumbag MAGA people. There's also a lot of people who pay almost no attention to politics at all and have a lot of problems.
Quick! In one sentence, summarize Kamala's campaign pitch. If you did it without mentioning Trump or Biden, I'm impressed, good job, I'm pretty interested in what you came up with. Now, do Trump. Probably something stupid like "you'll be winning so much" or whatever, right? If you knew nothing at all about politics, which one sounds better? For someone who isn't paying attention, maybe distrusts all politicians equally (for better or worse), probably Trump's. Of course, he's going to be fucking catastrophic for anyone who isn't a billionaire, but I'm just talking campaign pitches. The point is that the democrats need to take this opportunity to get their shit together and start working on a better pitch than "not Trump".
Continuing the good things Biden had done (chips act, student debt cancellation, etc), while protecting reproductive rights, at least pretending to treat minorities like humans, while being the only rational option that had a chance.
Okay, great! Now, here's where I point out the problems. Keep in mind that I am not happy that Trump won, what I want is for the democrats to take their well-earned lessons from their fuck up and not fuck up again, instead of staying in denial of any responsibility and trundling into the midterms convinced that they did everything perfect in '24.
A lot of voters fundamentally didn't feel the good things Biden did. We have a lot of student loans debt, and I can live with the fact that our debt didn't get cancelled, but it's really frustrating that they touted the payment plans for those whose debt remained as some kind of win. Those cool payment plans they were making a fuss about actually would have increased our payments. More on that below, but that's kind of the general vibe of Biden's accomplishments and how they were oversold in '24. Yeah, he did undeniably do some good things, but those good things were ultimately just kind of okay for the average person, and got sold as if he was the ghost of FDR. A lot of folks are out there drowning, and the campaign's messaging vibe around it was "congratulations on having been rescued by Joe Biden!" It's a little like when you're on hold with a cable company for four hours because they're the only Internet provider, or you're playing phone tag with the health insurance company because they're the only option provided by your employer, and they start bragging about how cool they are on the hold message. It does not spark joy. If you pointed out that the economy wasn't better for the average person, or that the messaging was tone-deaf, you got accused of being MAGA and told to shut up. So, the message of "continuing Biden" in a time where incumbents around the world were getting their asses beaten, and Biden was at his lowest popularity yet, was a huge fucking mistake imo.
I still don't get why they had to die on the hill of defending a guy who was no longer seeking re-election when they had a perfect opportunity to put distance between them. It should have been the obvious thing to do when the Trump campaign was also trying to make sure that voters associated Kamala with Biden.
I don't think that fear is effective messaging anymore, and I'm not sure it ever was. Running on "Trump's going to get you", even if it is true, has a 50% track record (at the time, now 33%) at the best interpretation, 0% at worst (being that Biden didn't run on "Trump's going to get you"). There's too many people who don't follow politics closely. As someone who likes arguing with strangers online, this confounds me, but it's true. I don't think fear-based messaging is meaningful for those folks, even if true.
I mean, pretend you didn't pay attention to politics. What's a better one sentence pitch? What you said, or "you're going to win a lot, you'll be tired of winning"?
P.S.
Following up on student loans:
It's also frustrating that instead of trying to make a meaningful change to at least start addressing the system that creates the student debt problem, the big fix they offered was a band-aid of debt forgiveness (for some people). That's not meaningful change, it's a band-aid.
It seems whenever someone pointed out that the the economy wasn’t better for the average person, people weren't told to shut up or accused of being MAGA. But told that 'the economy' doesn't measure cost of living for normal people. It's the stock market. Regardless of that it was better by most measures comparing the rebound against other countries. Disinformation was just more effective and reality did not matter.
If one can side just fabricate a southern invasion, or convince people inflation is high when it isn't. It doesnt really matter what the other side does.
If you didn't pay attention to politics you should've been able to take one look at Trumps actions around Jan6 and vote against it, no listing to the media required. It was transparent AF. Recordings of him trying to coerce more votes out of states, and all the nonsense that came afterwards, etc. But unfortunately fear is too effective, and the Dems are much worse at it. Too busy nitpicking a lame campaign and sowing doubt rather than the pure denial and unity the people want.
what I want is for the democrats to take their well-earned lessons from their fuck up and not fuck up again
Wonder how many rights we'll lose and how fucked up our economy will be by the time we get the felon rapist out of office, assuming we can get him and his party out of office after they attempt to make good on their promise to "reorganize" our government after inciting an insurrection to topple it. But at least maybe Democrats will "learn their lesson" by then.
I don’t think that fear is effective messaging anymore
Lol. That's literally how Republicans win. They cornered the market on it. They developed fear-based politics into an art form. THEY'RE EATING OUR PETS. INVADING IMMIGRANT CARAVANS. THEY'RE STEALING YOUR JOBS AND RAPING YOUR CHILDREN. BIDEN IS TOO OLD (totally ignore that our guy is equally old).
If anything, Democrats need to learn how to lie and scare people into voting for them more effectively, because clearly that's what nets American votes.
What’s a better one sentence pitch? What you said, or “you’re going to win a lot, you’ll be tired of winning”?
I mean I guess if I cosplayed a moron I'd go with the winning comment. If I remain in the shoes of someone with a normal number of brain cells, then I'd rather hear about accomplishments and policy.
My life has gotten markedly worse since biden and so has that of all my coworkers. More of the same “nothing will fundamentally change” Biden except as a first black Indian woman president!!! is simply not appealing and it has nothing to do with identity politics. This economy is destroying the working class. My entire department coworkers voted for trump, almost all of them for the first time. It’s vermont. They’re pro women, pro lgbtq, don’t care about race. But Biden’s economic policies did not help them at all. All of the twice obama thrice trump voters? Same fucking thing. But that doesn’t fit the neat little identity politics narrative conveniently invented to keep people from talking about class issues and gaining class consciousness. You see, the working class greatly surpasses the ruling class in size and we’re heavily armed. Don’t want the working class getting any ideas so best to invent or manipulate identity issues to keep it divided.
If only you’d talk to people instead of parroting liberal MSM talking points that remind me of bush claiming Islamic terrorism was because they hate us! And not you know, the product of decades of US intervention in the Middle East especially the support of Israel’s bullshit.
But objectively Bidens policies were better for them. This is the problem with voting on feels and not data. Unless they voted for Trump to burn the system down in hopes that’d improve things, they voted for their situations to worsen. As well as the situation of those vulnerable groups they ‘care’ about.
But Biden is SOOOOOOOOOO old. Like 3 whole years older than the ancient rapist we just elected.
I mean, we know Democrats are a WAY better option for the average American, but can you imagine someone 3 WHOLE years older than the felon we elected being president? Totally unacceptable.
She tried to buy voters and it failed because noone trusts democrats to follow through on promises without them being backhanded or benefiting a group of people that aren't involved.
Being the objectively better option on Gaza. Actually responded like a human and cared about public pressure here saying things like "International humanitarian law must be respected" and advocated for a 2-state solution vs Trumps 'We're gonna tell them do whatever they want to get the job done' (greater israel incoming)
Said she would pass a middle class tax cut that will benefit 100m+ Americans
$25k for first-time homebuyers
Maintain/increase the surging Economy
Give women reproductive freedom.
Continue to move towards universal single payer healthcare.
Continue the advancements in non fossil fuel energy development.
Said she would pass a middle class tax cut that will benefit 100m+ Americans
Yeah right, why wasn’t it done already then?
$25k for first-time homebuyers
Big whoop, homes will increase 25k in price.
Maintain/increase the surging Economy
Surging economy for whom?! the liberal elites? Yeah ok.
Give women reproductive freedom.
And the democrats had FIFTY FUCKING YEARS to codify roe v Wade but cynically fundraised off it instead. YEAH RIGHT. That’s total bullshit. If she was serious why didn’t it happen under biden and why would it magically happen under her? No, nothing would change. Just more fundraising, this dumbass spent a billion to lose an election because nobody fucking believes a word out of democrat mouths anymore for good fucking reason! Like an abusive romantic relationship where the partner constantly promises change and never delivers and then gaslights you over it. And you wonder why they’re breaking up!
Continue to move towards universal single payer healthcare.
Bullshit and empty promises. Democrat senator from Connecticut joe Lieberman single-handedly killed Obamacare’s public option after being bribed by the insurance companies that are headquartered in his state. He’s dead but there’s always a democrat patsy to protect the capitalists they actually represent. Sinema, Manchin, the unheard of senate parliamentarian when it came to raising the federal minimum wage. There’s always somebody democrat aligned to protect corporate donors interests and block any kind of meaningful reform.
Continue the advancements in non fossil fuel energy development.
Too little too late. See the LA wildfires for an example. We’re already cooked. The time to act was decades ago but did the democrats do anything meaningful? NO! They protected their corporate donors and the capitalist class as they always do. Schadenfreude watching the houses of the extreme wealthy burn!
Except she didn't promise any of that (not her in particular) & the 2-state solution is a farce where the Genocide will still continue & Israel will be given more priority & as for reproductive rights
Never though killing unborn children was a reproductive right
Huh? Many of those were her original campaign promises.
Genocide will be ramped up and concerns ignored instead of just continuing while facing increasing public scrutiny and backlash. He literally told you this. Biden was a zionist at heart but Kamala would've softened after winning. And even if she didn't. Argument isn't whether she was good for Gaza, it's that she was objectively, better than Trump.
Trump says Israel needs to ‘finish what they started’ and said war with Hamas is ‘taking a long time’
Trump told Netanyahu he wants Gaza war over by time he enters office
vs
Kamala Harris says ‘I will not be silent’ on suffering in Gaza after Netanyahu talks
There is no argument for letting Trump/GOP get in if you care about Gaza. Of course they're worse.
Miriam Adelson sought support from candidate Trump for Israel's annexation of the West Bank, pledging more than $100 million to Trump's campaign in exchange for U.S. recognition of Israel's sovereignty over the region.
It has ensured Palestine's erasure. We're now in the 'Greater Israel' period in U.S politics
Friedman, however, suggests that we should not look to Trump but to those around him — to figures like former ambassador David Friedman, Jason Greenblatt, and others who pledge to continue the unfinished work of Trump’s first term. These are the people who will be at the center of what Friedman calls a “Greater Israel” period in U.S. policy: supporting Israeli annexation and ethnic cleansing in the West Bank, Gaza, and parts of Lebanon; lifting sanctions on settlers; and preventing any bans on weapons transfers. “They have lists of things that they are ready to do,” Friedman says, warning that we should take them at their word.
You're getting downvoted, but Kamala simply ran a better campaign than Trump. She was all about hope and inclusion, which is undeniably a better message than "hate this person I'm telling you to hate". She decimated him in the debate, going over policy while he talked about immigrants eating pets and having concepts of plans.
She ran a better campaign. In a very short period of time.
She lost because
There's a lot of hate in America.
Americans are easily misinformed and manipulated by disinformation. The average American is too goddamn lazy and stupid to lookup data and make responsible decisions based off that data.
That’s what I get stuck on every time. Yeah, the democrats are useless and need to make big changes. They carry a lot of blame. But it’s not just people being fed up with their useless asses. The voters turned out in big numbers to vote FOR Trump. We expected the results to take a long time and be contentious again, but the morning after Election Day his victory was already clear.
Extremely discouraging. I'm still incredulous that he got re-elected, and moreso that the democrats managed to fuck it up bad enough to lose to that fucking guy again
How about not trying to pretend that Biden was fine all through the primary right up until he went up on the debate stage and blew his legs off on national TV? I think that probably would have been a great start.
I’ll be honest, I can’t even really be mad at them. I can’t think of anything they should have done differently.
You're kidding, right?
Thing #1, in giant flashing marquee letters, would've been "pick an AG who would've actually gone after the traitorous coup leader instead of sitting on his ass for two years." Remember, Merrick Garland's original qualification for his SCOTUS nomination was being so conservative that even Mitch McConnell had no excuse to reject him. It should've been blatantly obvious to everyone that that made him the absolute wrong choice for AG.
Things #2 - infinity can basically be summarized as "all the stuff that would actually help the working class, which the Democrats' major corporate donors would never actually allow them to do."
Thing 3: demand biden be a one term president and hold a legitimate primary instead of coronating Kamala who would of never won in a competitive primary that didn’t have the DNC ratfucking it.
Okay, but where do you go with that? What do you do with that? There's nothing you can do with "the voters are wrong" except to assure yourself that you're right as you keep getting your ass kicked by sociopaths, idiots, and clowns every election. It's loser talk.
The voters aren't wrong, the democrats need to get up off their ass, stop relying on not being the other guy, and actually give the no-voters a reason to show up to the polls.
America gleefully RE-ELECTED an anti-democratic felon rapist who removed women's rights, incited an insurrection, illegally attempted to overturn an election, stole and refused to return classified documents, and fumbled the response to the greatest American crisis since WW2.
We're squarely in the "trash society" category now. The only thing we're the greatest at is having a lot of firepower.
And I personally think it’s astroturfing. The political parties spend tons of $ to influence opinion. Why wouldn’t they hire a bunch of bots to push their message in this space?
How can you lose an election so bad and think that it’s the voters who need to change? The tail does not wag the dog, democrats! I refuse to believe this is genuine sentiment. I live in a very liberal state and IRL conversation it’s fuck the democrats, a whole lot of people I work with were first time trump voters. BLUE STATE. One of the most liberal. Home to Bernie sanders!
It's always the same accounts and there seems to be immediate group voting as you will see an almost immediate and usually similar number in these kinds of posts as if they are waiting and refreshing comments to make sure there is their brand of discontent.
Honestly it's a shame that the mods keep allowing this instead of telling them to shut up and take a breather instead of trying to start fights and make shit up that makes this social site worse on a weekly basis.
I get your point, but absolutely 100% unironically it is the voters who are wrong.
Trump lead an insurrection, is a confirmed rapist, convicted felon, twice impeached, wear dampers because he's incontinencent, openly scammed his voters out of their money multiple times and has vowed to be a dictator.
Which is why I maintain that it's the DNC's fault. Trying to win by asking voters to vote against someone is a dog shit strategy with a dog shit track record. In fact, in a lot of regards, Kamala's campaign was run pretty similarly to Hillary's. For me, the chief similarity is that they tried to rely on fear and shaming and celebrity appearances (by the second half of the campaign) instead of offering an impactful policy slate. To boot, I seem to recall that a lot of team Hillary ended up running Kamala's campaign, so I guess it's not too shocking that they muzzled a lot of her left leaning ideals and basically ran Hillary pt II. One would have hoped that they would have learned anything from '16 besides voter blaming, though. I'd like to point out that Kamala gained the most ground in the first half of her campaign when it was about excitement, when people were hopeful that she'd have some progressive policies and before it was known that her policy plank was the basic centrist corporate democrat plank.
It also didn't help that they pretended and insisted Joe was fine all through the primary, so we didn't get one, insisted he was fine and we just didn't have any choice but to vote blue after Joe blew his legs off and bled all over the debate stage for 90 minutes on national TV, and only started leaning on him once the really disastrous poll numbers started rolling in.
Except that's ignoring the elephant in the room. Sure they could have run a better campaign, if they did they might have even been able to win, but the best campaign in history is still not going to win over a single MAGA cultists, and even if Kamala won, those people would not go away, they will still be there the next election to vote for a Trump and there propaganda machine will make sure there is even more of them next time too and that they are even more fanatical.
That's the real problem and things aren't going to get better unless we actually stop the maga cult from recruiting and/ or deprogram them.
but the best campaign in history is still not going to win over a single MAGA cultists
So you agree with us? This is like, the exact advice Harris didn't follow and a BIG part of why she lost: trying to convince people who will never vote for her to do so at the cost of those who otherwise would have
This is your daily reminder that Trump pulled about the same numbers as he did in 2020, but Kamala pulled about 5 million less than Joe did in 2020. The republicans didn't overperform, the democrats underperformed.
The point of my comment is that the election result is a side effect of the real issue.
Trump got 62m votes in 2016, 74m in 2020 and 77m in 2024. So even when the dems DID beat him, and even when he killed off millions of his supporters with covid, he only got more popular. His cult grows and grows and becomes more fanatical. THAT is the real problem. And nothing the dems can do in a campaign will convert a fanatical trump supporter, so unless we can do something to stop his cult growing at the very least, then it's not going to matter how good the dems campaign is.
Yup. We just had the most obvious election we're ever likely to experience and voters still managed to drop the ball. You can place blame on Democrats, and some of it would be justified, but the blame primarily lies on trash ass American voters. We are AWFUL at voting. We are AWFUL at informing ourselves responsibly.
democrats don’t need to change, it’s the voters who are wrong
Why not both?
It appears to me that not only does the Democrat party need to get better at messaging, but that a very large swath of Americans are also braindead stupid and easily manipulated.
Well, that's one take. I've worked around a lot of rural Republican voters, and they're probably some of the most heavily propagandized people on earth. There's such a a knowledge and information gulf there by design, it's going to take something huge to break people out of it. True story, I attempted several times throughout my life to get a fair understanding of the situation in Israel, always coming up sort of befuddled except that police states are something I take at face value as bad. This last year has cleared the befuddlement, but feeling good that I had a fair assessment of things before then felt nearly impossible, even with a semi-concerted effort, because of how much bullshit there was on all sides.
But, I'd wager you don't need republicans. Trying to flip republicans is moot. They should be trying to get no-voters.
"Hey, let's vote for a candidate who literally cannot win from a party that hasn't done the necessary work to become nationally viable because I don't want to be part of the two party problem even though if we do so it will guarantee that a felon rapist who incited an insurrection, stripped women of a human right, and illegally attempted to overturn an election will win." - Dipshit 3rd Party Voters
Just as stupid as Trump supporters, as far as I'm concerned.
Well, they got what we told them they'd be getting. Why aren't they celebrating?
Narrator: The Stein cicada has gone back underground to hibernate 4 more years. She will eventually resurface to make her cicada noises next election cycle
This is like the ~2 month period in between US election spam, I quite enjoy it. I really don't need 12 months a year of yanks bitching about their idiotic government.
If stopping trump is so important, then why didn't democrats replace First-past-the-post voting with a more representative electoral system? So people could be free to vote how they wish, safe in the knowledge their vote would still be counted against Republicans if their preference didn't win.
More people voting statistically means more votes for democrats. Why are the democrats saying no to these easy votes? Where is the urgency?
What would you do for more then one chance to beat the Republicans? Would you campaign for electoral reform in your state like Alaskans did?
That's right, a state has already done away with FPTP voting. It's possible, as voting is controlled at the state level.
You have to admit that losing to Trump twice is fucking embarrassing, and it should destroy any notion that the democratic party should be the only poltical party to fight this fight. They have more then lost that privilege long ago.
The Democratic party is not more important then the United States of America. If only the DNC felt the same way...
Just incase youre falling for this argument remember; there is zero chance biden or harris become president now and unless I missed something war in the middle east is still going strong.
I still point out once a week. Republicans and Democrats are the problem. Entirely ditch both parties and grab a third party that's actually terrified of happening to them, what just happened to the Republican's and Democrats and taking our country back from the damn thieves.
But I guess with eye sight like that, you would have trouble seeing what's right in front of you.
The best solution to the two parties excluding the left isn't a third party, it's for the left to register as Republicans and conduct a hostile takeover of the GOP in the primaries.
This can easily succeed in blue states/cities to start out.
If someone was bored enough they could go find the most popular posts from the election cycle and create a list of people pushing what agenda and then track how many of those accounts are suddenly inactive today.
Comment and post history are basic functions of the platform. Everything you post is linked to your account. No one is wrong for sorting through that data.
I have used the post history a grand total of zero times because I literally don't care about your post history. It's a social network, these people come and go, not the party committee meeting to see who to use as a scapegoat for our failures, today.
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here. What is a software that you use 100% of its features? I don't use the direct messaging feature, so no one else should either. I don't post pictures as posts so no one else should. Lemmy isn't hiding the fact that everything you post is tied to your account. If that's unacceptable then don't use it.
Canadian here,I still think it a good idea to start now. Harris could have been elected you would still need a third party or fifth. I believe Americans have been brain washed against it being even possible.
Lots of elections are not tied to the electoral college. Aren't there elected judges, sherrif, senators, etc, state level elections. Oh no it's useless if we can't have a 3rd party president win the next election. So we'll just keep hoping the nice billionaires win the next one. My province has been voting a party that only place people in our province and will never be in power. The rest of the country is often pissed off because we still manage to defend our values by being in the opposition.
But most third parties aren't oriented to winning or holding office. Honestly if you look at the rhetoric of lots of them they seem to be more oriented towards keeping Democrats out. I don't vote for democrats. I vote against Republicans. But every time I go vote in local elections. There are many many offices I leave blank. Because Republicans are running unopposed. I've said many times I would love to see third parties running for these offices that Democrats aren't concerned about. But they don't seem to be concerned about those in all but one or two states. And even those are kind of iffy.
I’ve said many times I would love to see third parties running for these offices that Democrats aren’t concerned about. But they don’t seem to be concerned about those in all but one or two states. And even those are kind of iffy.
I am of the opinion that Adam generally makes everything better. And his talk about reigniting community. As an anarchist that resonates intensely. But that video has nothing to do with why no third party groups bother to campaign at all in red states where Republicans are running unopposed. There are no green party candidates for local offices. There are no Democratic or Social Democratic candidates for local offices if we have a Libertarian it's a right-wing libertarian and there will often worse than the Republican but that's the closest we ever get to third party out here I think Adam is 100% on the right track for what Democrats need to do. But what third parties need to do is actually run for local and State office. As well as the stuff that Adam spoke of.
Lots of elections are not tied to the electoral college. Aren't there elected judges, sherrif, senators, etc, state level elections. Oh no it's useless if we can't have a 3rd party president win the next election. So we'll just keep hoping the nice billionaires win the next one.
Absolutely, and guess how many offices, both state and national the Green Party - arguably the biggest current 3rd party in the country has? G’wan guess.
That’s right! 153 people in the country were elected as Greens so the Electoral College doesn’t come close to applying. As far as representing my political preferences in the Water District Board of Directors or the Advisory Neighborhood Commission, they’re bringing the revolution to the halls of power slowly but . . . Well, slowly.
As for those billionaires who decide who runs, I don’t really like to be called a billionaire mostly because i’m about a billion dollars short of it, but I have a say in my parties’ candidates by participating.
If everyone scrabbling to eke out a tenuous coalition had any support we’d be getting somewhere with third parties. But we’re not largely because there isn’t support for them. The people in here blowing hard about “oooh don’t vote, it’s all a scam” and “gEnOciDe JoE” do absolutely nothing to support any political organization, and that’s why they disappeared - they were never going to do anything anyway, they just had a mandate to shit on the Democrats and that job is done.
So just stop rather than trying to get more elected? Absolutely wish Harris had been elected rather than fuck face mctarrifs. But USA don't even have a centre-left, it's right and far right. The Dems keep losing to the far right, why would they bother moving aven an inch left if there is no one there ?
His full title is actually: his excellency, rapist in chief, pedophile plenipotentiary, amorphous adulterer, freelance felon, the dishonorable Donald Jerkface Trump.
TBH other than blatantly and aggregiously lying their ass off in the last referendum about what a split would be like, the BQ actually have decent policies and it would be nicr for all provinces to have that at the federal level.
Then BC would get the number of seats it should have at least.
The point I'm trying to make is influence. Strongly Voting for bloc pulls the other parties policies toward our point of view so they can get at least some seats. Or risk being a minority government. Having a Bernie/ Cortez party running on the left for Senate and the house would have much more pull than they have now. They still could say voir for Harris as president but pour out his on the rest of the ballot. But I can tell even the ideas that they could start changing is offensive.
Not at all, in fact Bernie is in the unofficial largest 3rd party (sorry Libertarians), the Independents. Now of course that's not a party as such, but that was his compromise.
If Bernie and AOC say jump, I'll say how high. But Nothing's new there and we're totally fuX0r3d for the next four years because Jill Stein and a russian op doppelganger crew decided trump for all. Third party? We'll be lucky to have the remnants of a civil society.
Only because FPTP is hot garbage. Single Transferable Vote, Ranked Choice, etc are not incompatible with the Electoral College.
Why wouldn’t 3rd parties work in Congress? We already have caucuses and intra-labels like Blue Dog. Bernie still wears a D, as did Manchin.
I constantly see establishment Dems point to X as why we cannot change the voting/election structures, but rarely to never see the same voices agitate to change those same structures. The DNC and RNC like the duopoly, and actively defend it.
I constantly see establishment Dems point to X as why we cannot change the voting/election structures, but rarely to never see the same voices agitate to change those same structures. The DNC and RNC like the duopoly, and actively defend it.
It’s usually a good idea to read the sources you’re citing, instead of picking links after a cursory web search:
Three Democratic senators unveiled a constitutional amendment to abolish the Electoral College system Monday, just more than a month after President-elect Trump stunned the Democrats by sweeping all seven battleground states, knocking off three Senate Democratic incumbents in the process.
So glad we’re making performative amendment suggestions AFTER they lost control of all branches of government. They know this is not going to pass in the current Congress, but “we tried” right? Why is it suddenly a priority after a crushing loss, instead of taken care of during the Obama supermajorities or tacked onto a NDAA or similar ‘must pass’ bill? 🧐
A Harris-Walz campaign official later walked the governor’s comments back, telling CBS News that the campaign does not want to get rid of the Electoral College.
C’mon dude, at least browse to the third paragraph…
Democrats say national rules are needed to make voting more uniform, accessible and fair. The bill would mandate early voting, same-day registration and other long-sought changes that Republicans reject.
Voting rights and curbing money is admirable, but not part of what I meant. Reform voting systems, not just eligibility and access
I constantly see establishment Dems point to X as why we cannot change the voting/election structures, but rarely to never see the same voices _agitate to change_ those same structures.
Do these articles NOT show you Dems “agitating” to change those structures? Including the VP nom? I say that a cursory search showed them, and if I were to fuck with enshittified google enough I’d find many more examples.
Would you admit you were wrong then? Perhaps mistaken? Doubt.
So yeah I didn’t finish my doctoral thesis on easily disprovable lies to enable a foregone conclusion, only to illustrate that the huge leaps you made were wrong. I haven’t personally interviewed the 450 members of the DNC either, so your pronouncement that they like and defend the duopoly may be so - but I doubt it.
The DNC and RNC like the duopoly, and actively defend it.
Defend it with what. Are they preventing third parties from forming? The 53 that are said to exist today must have thwarted them, then. Defending it in seekrit underground caves, hand-in-hand with “christian” nationalists, chanting in latin or lovecraftian? Is there even a NY Post article about it?
Did they refuse to let a russian stooge share the debate stage to continue her bad-faith campaign to throw the election to trump? Yeah they did, and so they should - fuck that bullshit.
Speaking of defending, what about your vaunted third party advocates stating plainly and openly their determination to throw the election to trump? Need a cite for that?
You can falsely categorize the Dems as status-quo mongers but (a) that’s false, (b) some good is better than all bad, (c} you can affect change by participating with them, and (d) third-parties have got nothing, and in four years everyone gets to trip over themselves to have this exact same russian argument again.
Name one third party that has any shot at being elected to national office in four years. Cite your sources, less than a thousand words, papers under your desk, #2 only.
Do these articles NOT show you Dems “agitating” to change those structures? Including the VP nom? I say that a cursory search showed them, and if I were to fuck with enshittified google enough I’d find many more examples.
Establishment Democrats forcefully pushing no, not really. Dick Durbin meets that bar as the Senate whip but I can’t find a text of their proposal to see who/how many cosponsors they have - or if it even exists beyond a press release. Waltz is a DC outsider plucked from the Midwest to play the role of VP - be everything the president is not. And like your own linked article quoted, the campaign cut his feet out beneath him immediately and repeatedly.
Would you admit you were wrong then? Perhaps mistaken? Doubt.
You have to convince me I’m wrong, not get huffy and claim superiority in an attempt to bully complicity. Your retort is lacking in convincing argument, but is oozing condescension and assumption that I’m bad-faith greeenie/russian bot/.ml tankie spoiler position.
Defend it with what. Are they preventing third parties from forming? The 53 that are said to exist today must have thwarted them, then. Defending it in seekrit underground caves, hand-in-hand with “christian” nationalists, chanting in latin or lovecraftian? Is there even a NY Post article about it?
“We have a robust free market, look see? There’s dozens of competitors who all fight for the bottom 5% of the total” what a libertarian ass argument. If we applied anti-trust scrutiny to the parties, there would be forced breakups and structural barriers to them entrenching their grip. There used to be more than two parties that got EC votes in the US, evolving going through schisms and mergers as they react to electoral realities. As a natural reaction to FPTP though, those who failed to combine into an 800lb gorilla, get mauled by the one that did.
Did they refuse to let a russian stooge share the debate stage to continue her bad-faith campaign to throw the election to trump? Yeah they did, and so they should - fuck that bullshit.
Speaking of defending, what about your vaunted third party advocates stating plainly and openly their determination to throw the election to trump? Need a cite for that?
Stein is controlled opposition, yes. But you’re swinging at ghosts - I want STV/ranked choice/etc and third party coalitions in Congress, not a token protest vote without a meaningful platform or experience.
You can falsely categorize the Dems as status-quo mongers but (a) that’s false
DoMA was quashed by a legal challenge, not Democrat led legislation
”Bipartisan consensus on foreign policy” despite being generally unpopular, enough that even Trump got to lie and run on “no more wars”
ACA largely being a gift to entrench private insurers, the primary gain for us is the end of denials for preexisting conditions but failed to offer a robust government option, meekly offering repackaged private insurance under slightly better terms
Abortion not receiving robust protection from legal challenge in the last 50 years, relying on a (correct but) legally tortured right to privacy instead of a baseline agreeable standard via federal law or amendment
And now the chatter is about ditching LGBTQ+ to court Hispanic and ‘moderates’ after the 2024 general…
(b) some good is better than all bad, (c} you can affect change by participating with them, and
AOC just got blocked by Pelosi herself from the exact kind of ‘change from within’ you argue for.
(d) third-parties have got nothing, and in four years everyone gets to trip over themselves to have this exact same russian argument again.
Name one third party that has any shot at being elected to national office in four years. Cite your sources, less than a thousand words, papers under your desk, #2 only.
Circular reasoning. After Citizens United money is what runs elections, and the Democrats insist on looming over the left wing political landscape and beating minority challengers, reinforcing the “losing prospect” narrative for third parties. Europeans manage to build actual coalitions all the time and govern effectively, listening to coalition parties (and thus voters who elected that strand of politician) whilst still managing to run an effective government.
America can legitimately be better, but you have to dare to hope for it, not resign yourself to the lesser evil every cycle, and then shout down everyone else who isn’t. Massively cut election donations and establish universal FEC funding, and ditch winner takes all voting. Otherwise we will continue to see the ratchet click rightward, while the lesser evil just slows the metastasizing fascism - are you okay with that future?
You have to convince me I’m wrong, not get huffy and claim superiority in an attempt to bully complicity.
You have to prove you’re right, as you made the ridiculous unsupportable claim. I’ve already proven it, you refuse to admit it. Let’s move on.
If we applied anti-trust scrutiny to the parties, there would be forced breakups and structural barriers to them entrenching their grip.
Uh, sure. Or we could apply RuPaul’s Drag Race scrutiny to the parties and put tape on their doors to make sure they’re not sneaking out. They’re not businesses with products and markets. There’s a fundamental reason we don’t treat them like businesses (although the analogies are admittedly obvious). It’s because your scrappy, revolutionary Pokémon Go party deserves to meet, advocate, advertise, and run for office without being audited by the Shithole State Assessor and OSHA.
So, again, no.
There used to be more than two parties that got EC votes in the US, evolving going through schisms and mergers as they react to electoral realities.
. . . Agree? And? The resulting duopoly - a foregone conclusion - means boo Democrats bad? What’s your point. EC is mandated duopoly. Let’s get rid of it and whatever your point might be can be rendered mercifully moot.
Stein is controlled opposition, yes. But you’re swinging at ghosts - I want STV/ranked choice/etc and third party coalitions in Congress, not a token protest vote without a meaningful platform or experience.
Well, we’re in agreement there. I’m not jazzed about the coalitions only because I think it’s another porkbarrel trap and I don’t have a good sense of how it would work, but, yes.
DoMA was quashed by a legal challenge, not Democrat led legislation
DoMA was an insult to humanity and all supporting Democrats should have been defenestrated from office. Ironically, the legal challenge was also from Democrats, so. I dunno. Politics.
”Bipartisan consensus on foreign policy” despite being generally unpopular, enough that even Trump got to lie and run on “no more wars”
I’m OOTL since Nov. so not sure what this is in reference to, but if existing officeholders can hold trump to anything I’m not necessarily against it.
ACA . . . failed to offer a robust government option, meekly offering repackaged private insurance under slightly better terms
Yes. And it was a huge win we wouldn’t have otherwise had. Clinton spent all his first term capital on H4A and the rest of his initiatives were bought-and-paid for with more cops and less welfare or some other political extortion. Obama got it done. It’s better. It’s not possible from any other party, period. Some good. You’re welcome. Thanks for hating the people who did the good.
Abortion not receiving robust protection from legal challenge in the last 50 years, relying on a (correct but) legally tortured right to privacy instead of a baseline agreeable standard via federal law or amendment
Yeah the protection was honored by all branches so let’s definitely lose the 80’s & 90’s to conservatives by repeatedly running on that. All you need to do is roll back other progress and find the career politicians willing to be sacrificed. Oh, the party is all-powerful, and can just make them do it? Lol.
Look at this shit - abortion is illegal and these fuckers STILL won. You want them to spend everything on a constitutional amendment to support what was already legal - and fail - to prove they’re genuine? That’s stupid. Yes they should have done everything to protect that right, they failed. AND THEN lost again. I realize it sucks. Politics sucks, what a revelation. Compromise is less fulfilling than heroic purity. Huzzah we’ve cracked it. Please.
And now the chatter is about ditching LGBTQ+ to court Hispanic and ‘moderates’ after the 2024 general…
Fuck “chatter”. We’ll get boatloads of chatter daily in the next four years. I’m out this time.
AOC just got blocked by Pelosi herself from the exact kind of ‘change from within’ you argue for.
Yeah. Which was bullshit. Pelosi needed to go awhile ago. AOC is young. And by the by, your wildly successful third parties are not chairing House Oversight anytime this century. So. You just wanna lay down in the road and die? Okay, but that is a super weird strategy for change. Good luck? I guess.
Voters (and spoilers) organized and ran a massive protest and advocacy campaign over Palestine
Yeah. Voters and spoilers. Demanding action, instant change. Spoilers. And voters. What a fantastic wedge. Worked a treat. And now, Palestine is well and truly fucked. Nice work, voters and spoilers.
I suppose we keep on with the camps and so on and hope the trump admin is more receptive? Heh. Oh well. We tried to explain this a hundred ways but it was not a discussion. No one was interested in understanding anything except now, today, immediately. Well. Anyway. You got what you wanted there. Why, I don’t know. It’s the opposite of good, but you demanded it. Okay then, now it’s here.
Unless you’re a donor or regular attendee at $3k-$500k per head fundraiser, or are one of the vanishing small intersectional group of voters who get microadvertised to death with focus tested messaging, you don’t matter to them.
No. Being active locally is free. They do listen. If you want to cut all ties with Israel and you are upset that haranguing the Poughkeepsie chair of the DNC isn’t getting it done, I’d suggest you reset your expectations of how national politics works. Coincidentally, that applies to third parties too. It’s hard fucking work if you’re not relying on corrupt racists and batshit evangelicals.
After Citizens United money is what runs elections,
Yeah. It’s a republiQan tactic and Democrats want to change it. Third parties should be helping.
and the Democrats insist on looming over the left wing political landscape and beating minority challengers, reinforcing the “losing prospect” narrative for third parties.
You mean they win elections? Why, if it only takes money? Couldn’t Jill Stein or literally any and/or all of the 52 other parties cobble together enough for a freaking House seat or, god, Sheriff of Bumfuck or something? No. They can’t. The “losing prospect” is a chimera. Quit believing in it.
Europeans manage to build actual coalitions all the time and govern effectively, listening to coalition parties (and thus voters who elected that strand of politician) whilst still managing to run an effective government.
Do they? Well good for them, that’s nice. Except the ones that don’t amirite? England, France, Germany, Australia - all having a little bit of a time with the relative conservative elements aren’t they? Hey howabout that Brexit, huh? Goddamn.
And with Mississippi having a larger GDP than Germany, and a lot of challenges Germany doesn’t have, let’s just say it’s possible an EU style governance may take more than one election cycle from naked authoritarianism.
America can legitimately be better, but you have to dare to hope for it, not resign yourself to the lesser evil every cycle, and then shout down everyone else who isn’t.
Very often it means hoping and resigning. The shouting down is an attempt to recognize we’re in serious jeopardy, but alas the idiots, thieves, and newly enlightened have eschewed knowledge, understanding, or responsibility and we are utterly fucked because of it. As to the OP, where are they now.
Massively cut election donations and establish universal FEC funding, and ditch winner takes all voting.
Agreed. And if it ever happens, in the history of this country as we know it, it will be a Democratic initiative. A mythical Congress of strong, independent, national third parties working together for common good in the next four years is more than a joke, it’s a fucking lie. You can DO - right now, today, as a Democrat, or you can NOT DO today or at any other time in the next at-least-twenty years, as a third party.
And while we're at it, why am I not hearing from harris every 15 minutes? It should be absolutely constant and inescapable for even the slightest respite after an election, and not only for the US but the entire world on social media should be inundated daily!
I think for a 3rd party you should probably make an effort of more than 2 months every four years. Fuck even MTG would make a better 3rd party candidate.
Have you actually checked her social media? I'm guessing no, because she is still posting?
Have you considered that your stance here, inconsistent with reality, is based on the Dem-pushed "they just pop up every 4 years" narrative, and indicates a lack of neutral analysis and fact-checking on your part? No?
Its definitely a movement that needs to start now. instead of summer 2028. DNC is a zionist first organization. They will reelect Trump to 3rd term, if Israel has not completed its final solution.
America is. The DNC and GOP reflect that. Focus on the DNC to your own peril. The DNC at least can be reasoned with on many things. Until Zionism and Israel are widely unpalatable to the general US public it's not going to change. Either get started manufacturing a new great awakening. Or don't focus on making enemies of everyone. It's a good way to accomplish nothing. As we did.
The DNC at least can be reasoned with on many things.
Like having the world's most warmed milk Palestinian speaker at one of their conventions? There was a whole "uncommited" movement in Michigan that was 10,000% ignored.
Because far more Americans were okay with it or didn't care. The DNC would have actually lost significant support focusing on Gaza more. That's an American people problem before it's a DNC one. The undecided were not the loss leader for the DNC no matter how you look at it. More people stayed home over lack of resonant economic message than Gaza. Now maybe if you looked at the undecided Brain Trust that voted for Trump lol. It might have been slightly bigger. But it still comes in about 3rd or 4th Place from most of the polls I remember seeing.
Yeah I just got a response back from his shit just works alt with a screenshot of a report I made against one of his posts in his community. Unless he's secretly also the admin of that instance, I'm struggling to understand how that is a thing. Like I said, he taunts users who think they can stop his trolling campaign, and it's exactly what he's done in this case. Showing a screenshot of that report is a head scratcher, other than it's obviously meant to show he knows about the report and that nothing will ever come of it
I don't remember third party proponents. I remember the depression and realization that both parties continue to work hard to make this country suck more.
This is the time for third parties, not weeks before the election. I honestly would expect them under any US political post to remind people about third parties, forms of protest, etc. But I guess that's less fun than telling anyone trying to at least not pick the worst option pro-genocide. 🤷🏿♀️
Well I voted for a 3rd party candidate in the UK election, how slow American elections are is rather amusing to me. You were campaigning this time last year and the new government hasn't yet taken power. Meanwhile ours was all done in a few weeks.
How wish I could post my electoral reform copy pasta in every thread I commented in. I've been muted and banned in other instances for doing so. Haven't really pushed my luck in .ml because I want to keep posting garbage content I find.
Perhaps I will be allowed one cheesy copypasta here as a treat?
::: spoiler Videos on alternative voting systems
First Past The Post voting (What most states use currently)
Can we stop letting the same 4 people make these posts to just get the dopamine kicks from starting the arguments over all over again?
It's pointless grandstanding to get a fight started and that is basically it and it's the same people every time. People should just be blocking these accounts cause if anyone seems like permanently online trolls or shills it's these accounts making these exact posts like clockwork every single week.
It's lazy and the mods seem to let it happen cause they get a kick from the banning they can dish out.
You think the way you act is going to bring about any change or influence someone to change their mind. You are delirious. Keyboard warrior going to scare people online into voting the way you want, while preaching for people to lead the change they want to see. It's pathetic. Prime example of the infighting that keeps progressives from getting a real majority in anything.
Why are these anti-third party posts being spammed all of a sudden?
You lost by far greater than the number of third party voters. Not that it would even discredit a third party if you lost by less than that amount, because we're supposed to pick the best candidate, not the randomly chosen "best bet" that's complicit in genocide. This is disgusting.
It's like someone instructed an AI to babble political jargon as if it was an old timey villain from the days of silent movies.
I hope to God you chuckled and twirled your mustache while posting that crazed rant.
There wasn't time to run a 50 state primary. It takes 6 months to do that and Joe stepped down with about 1/2 that time remaining before the election and a month before the Democratic convention.
Was wondering how long it was going to take for one of you to whip out the bOoTLiCkEr accusation. It goes hand-in-hand with the bOtH siDeS ideology which is the basis for your every argument.
Right… and you actually believe that whatever loser third party candidate you shilled for would have changed anything? They spent three years saying nothing and doing less. Yet you blame people who voted for candidates that showed that wanted the position and put in the work to make change?
Lastly, the fact that you thought brining my mother into this was a good idea, or made a point just shows you lack the maturity to discuss adult topics so, I’m going to leave you here.
They are still in Russia. They moved on to fucking with the German election now I believe.
Yeah, I wish they'd promote the Green party here.
But with our voting system they have to promote the nazis directly.
Which they are unfortunately doing very successfully, along with fucking Elon Musk.
America, could you please keep your billionaires to yourself? They're annoying as hell.
Can’t we just return him to South Africa? We don’t really want him either
He has US citizenship, so now you're responsible.
Yeah but he lied on his form. So. It's just a matter of bringing this to the attention of the authori . . .
Okay look, there's a plan B that's had one big success already.
And two big failures.
That's loser talk. C'mon Go Team.
Elon is from South Africa. Also, if we could control them, they wouldn't be billionaires.
I don't subscribe to the notion that where you were born defines what nationality you are.
He speaks English, not Afrikaans. He lives in the US, has US citizenship, made his billions in the US, owns several US companies, and the president elect of the US lovingly caresses his dick every night with his wet, pouting lips.
This is so wholesome
I don't subscribe to the notion that nationality is a real thing, period. I could just as easily argue that none of that matters and he's "South African" because that's where he was born and I subscribe to the notion that nationality is something that never goes away.
You're the one insisting that he's American for some reason. Maybe don't make a big deal about things that are fake, don't matter, and you have idiosyncratic options about. It doesn't matter, which was the entire point of my comment.
It does matter, and he's American in absolutely every way that matters.
He's the ideal that the current American society and culture idolizes. Whether you like to admit it or not.
Did you know that "Every" doesn't imply "Any"?
[citation needed]
They're untrainable and we can't get rid of them. They're just like the *thump* *thump* *thump* from that one song.
i noticed the gaza campaigning seems to have almost gone now the election is over too
Are you taking about Elon? The South African? The fuck are you on about?
The Harris and Trump promoters also suddenly went quiet the day after the election.
What did you expect? The election cycle do be like that.
I wish the Trump supporters would go silent.
If you don't spend your time perpetually online, they are pretty silent.
I wish
No they didn't lol there were topics about the election results immediately after, and for probably two weeks at least.
After the election, what's left to say about third party candidates who everyone knew wouldn't win, including the people who voted for them?
Isn't now the time to start building a third party up to have a chance in the next election?
It's better than pulling a Jill Stein and parachuting into the debate in the last couple weeks to gain some funding.
she announced long before the last couple weeks, but the media iced her out.
No the media did not "ice her out". Green party has hardly any seats ANYWHERE in the country. Because they are not here to do the work of building.
The only people that got played harder than Trump supporters were 3rd party voters.
The party that only exists to siphon Dem votes and help Republicans win isn't universally loved by Democrats? Wow that's so crazy, I can't imagine why that would be.
It's almost as if they were a primary reason Trump won the first election and became relevant in the first place. It's almost as if the entire MAGA movement is only as big as they are because of the Green Party's role in that first election...
It's a total mystery why anyone would be unhappy with Stein 🤷♂️
They aren't. The fact that so many people seem to be disenfranchised by the 2-party system but 3rd party candidates aren't winning in local/state elections across the country prove that 3rd parties aren't putting in the effort.
. . . What’s your point?
Surely that’s the point. Well, that and to throw the election to the other russian puppet.
The point is the same as it was during the late stages of the election, third party needs a massive grassroots movement from early on in order to have traction by post-primary stages in the main parties’ cycles.
True, but they won't do it because they're not serious. It's performative as much as it is spoilage. I'll be super impressed if one third party is able to be nationally recognized with more than a token presidential candidate in four years.
The same thing Harris voters said. Talking about the loss and about the winner.
If those "green voters" actually gave a shit about getting their candidate elected, you'd hear from them for more than 2 months every 4 years.
But no, that was never the goal. Their goal was for Trump to win
And do what, canvas when there's no election and get even more doors slammed in your face.
Yeah the green party isn't campaigning in the off season, but neither are Republicans or democrats because nobody cares. Half the people only pay attention to politics the week before the election.
You know there's more than just the presidency... Right? Right? Building locally gcssroots doesn't mean showing up for the presidential cycle every four years. You understand this, right?
IMHO the local communities on Lemmy are still way too small. So you're mostly going to see discussion of national or global politics here.
No. We can go look up right now haw many state and federal positions are held by green parties
I'm not disputing that it's few. I'm pointing out that this activity would be practically invisible to us.
Then a 3rd party will never be viable.
Yeah man, like 3 people on lemmy are the ones who TURN THE TIDES on elections
My god, the insanity is real.
How about Jill Stein herself who shows up on the same timeline?
Yeah her 30k voters turned the tides of the election lolz 😂
She got 782,528 votes or about 0.5% of the popular vote.
You’re misrepresenting her votes by about 26 times less.
Why is that?
Wow, it's almost like the goal wasn't to get her elected, it was to make sure Harris didn't get elected.
Lolz!
Man I want to know what you are on, to be so deluded into thinking that 30k people can literally swing an election lmao 🤣
You realize elections have come down to a relatively small number of votes, correct? Especially if those votes are in the right locations.
https://www.britannica.com/list/5-remarkably-close-us-presidential-elections
Still on the 30k votes again huh? No mention of the low turnout for Democrat voters? Or the crowd pushing for people not to vote?
Green/PSL voters are literally posting in this thread. Maybe you have confirmation bias.
Oh, I thought that was because I blocked Trump and Musk in my keywords. It's been a peaceful time and I expect I shan't ever go back.
Nor I.
What? Lol? What universe do you live in? Sounds nice
What the hell have you been smoking lmao
Show me a conservative with their mouth closed and I'll show you an America where everyone is treated equally.
I don't know about the Trump promoters, but a lot of the people vocally supporting Harris are very much still here, commenting about other topics. A few (but only a few) of the third-party supporters are still here too, for that matter (notable example: @givesomefucks).
That's how you can tell they're real users, rather than shills being paid to push an agenda: they didn't go away when the job ended.
This thread is not about people's appetite for political discussion, or whether they're misguided enough to only pay attention to the Presidential election instead of building their party from local offices on up. It's about whether they were ever legitimate at all to begin with.
The election is over, did you expect them to keep telling you to vote 3rd party when there is no election to vote for them in? Perhaps you noticed that all the "Vote Harris" commercials stopped too?
Right here, what do you want?
Now's the exact time to promote third parties.
Any third party that's actually trying to build a coalition and provide viable candidates would absolutely be working overtime right now.
Maybe thats the point. Wheres the discussion, the coalition?
You're not going to believe this but most of that is happening in meatspace communities because right now we're in a phase of local community action. There aren't larger scale elections that catch the focus of greater social media. Some states do have governors coming up this year but you probably won't see general or local election stuff unless you're deep in some board specifically for a city or state.
Now what you might see people talking about unionizing efforts and you maybe have been seeing some memes about a mario brother.
That's where their comments likely are.
Yup, but most likely it'll be crickets until a month or two out from the next election when they'll turn on their shiny lights and attract all the assholes that think showing interest and voting for a 3rd party right before an election, and only right before an election, is actually going to do something.
If there actually were any. The only reason we hear about them ever is to promote spoiler candidates. Most are entirely funded by the GOP.
Yeah, like the brainworm anti-vax guy that's now going to be in charge of our health as restitution for siphoning voters from Dems.
Yeah. On a local/state level. For a long, long time before one can even stand a snowball's chance in hell of winning a presidential election.
"Yes, but as a strategic move, give up on controlling the most important single office in the country."
Perot won 19% in 1992. Why has the trend inverted?
Still advocating for state level electoral reform so people can vote outside the two party system with no spoiler effect.
Why are you okay with people being unrepresented with their options in the voting booth? Don't you support democracy?
In fact no. These are the very same people that prefer a dictator to take de facto power over the will of the people( see Venezuela) just because the will of the people doesn't align with their ideology this time
So yeah
You just perfectly described the ‘leftists’ who sat home instead of voting for Harris.
You mean liberals, there's no legitimate lefty there
No I mean leftists.
No you mean Liberals
Liberals liked Harris but the self-described leftists like Trump.
I assure you that I know what I mean.
OTOH, been seeing lots of posts brought to you by the "democrats don't need to change, it's the voters who are wrong" gang.
The voters voted in Trump again so maybe there’s something there.
I mean, yeah, sure. There's a lot of fucking scumbag MAGA people. There's also a lot of people who pay almost no attention to politics at all and have a lot of problems.
Quick! In one sentence, summarize Kamala's campaign pitch. If you did it without mentioning Trump or Biden, I'm impressed, good job, I'm pretty interested in what you came up with. Now, do Trump. Probably something stupid like "you'll be winning so much" or whatever, right? If you knew nothing at all about politics, which one sounds better? For someone who isn't paying attention, maybe distrusts all politicians equally (for better or worse), probably Trump's. Of course, he's going to be fucking catastrophic for anyone who isn't a billionaire, but I'm just talking campaign pitches. The point is that the democrats need to take this opportunity to get their shit together and start working on a better pitch than "not Trump".
We are not going back -> progressiv politics for the challenges of the future
Her pitch was pretty clear and she gave concrete policies all the time this was just a narrative pushed by MAGA
No, I know she gave concrete policies, I watched the debate. What I mean is that
The policies weren't much to write home about
I'm asking about the elevator pitch. Give me the campaign message in one sentence.
Continuing the good things Biden had done (chips act, student debt cancellation, etc), while protecting reproductive rights, at least pretending to treat minorities like humans, while being the only rational option that had a chance.
Okay, great! Now, here's where I point out the problems. Keep in mind that I am not happy that Trump won, what I want is for the democrats to take their well-earned lessons from their fuck up and not fuck up again, instead of staying in denial of any responsibility and trundling into the midterms convinced that they did everything perfect in '24.
I still don't get why they had to die on the hill of defending a guy who was no longer seeking re-election when they had a perfect opportunity to put distance between them. It should have been the obvious thing to do when the Trump campaign was also trying to make sure that voters associated Kamala with Biden.
I mean, pretend you didn't pay attention to politics. What's a better one sentence pitch? What you said, or "you're going to win a lot, you'll be tired of winning"?
P.S. Following up on student loans: It's also frustrating that instead of trying to make a meaningful change to at least start addressing the system that creates the student debt problem, the big fix they offered was a band-aid of debt forgiveness (for some people). That's not meaningful change, it's a band-aid.
It seems whenever someone pointed out that the the economy wasn’t better for the average person, people weren't told to shut up or accused of being MAGA. But told that 'the economy' doesn't measure cost of living for normal people. It's the stock market. Regardless of that it was better by most measures comparing the rebound against other countries. Disinformation was just more effective and reality did not matter.
https://www.ipsos.com/sites/default/files/inline-images/image_454.png
If one can side just fabricate a southern invasion, or convince people inflation is high when it isn't. It doesnt really matter what the other side does.
If you didn't pay attention to politics you should've been able to take one look at Trumps actions around Jan6 and vote against it, no listing to the media required. It was transparent AF. Recordings of him trying to coerce more votes out of states, and all the nonsense that came afterwards, etc. But unfortunately fear is too effective, and the Dems are much worse at it. Too busy nitpicking a lame campaign and sowing doubt rather than the pure denial and unity the people want.
Wonder how many rights we'll lose and how fucked up our economy will be by the time we get the felon rapist out of office, assuming we can get him and his party out of office after they attempt to make good on their promise to "reorganize" our government after inciting an insurrection to topple it. But at least maybe Democrats will "learn their lesson" by then.
Lol. That's literally how Republicans win. They cornered the market on it. They developed fear-based politics into an art form. THEY'RE EATING OUR PETS. INVADING IMMIGRANT CARAVANS. THEY'RE STEALING YOUR JOBS AND RAPING YOUR CHILDREN. BIDEN IS TOO OLD (totally ignore that our guy is equally old).
If anything, Democrats need to learn how to lie and scare people into voting for them more effectively, because clearly that's what nets American votes.
I mean I guess if I cosplayed a moron I'd go with the winning comment. If I remain in the shoes of someone with a normal number of brain cells, then I'd rather hear about accomplishments and policy.
My life has gotten markedly worse since biden and so has that of all my coworkers. More of the same “nothing will fundamentally change” Biden except as a first black Indian woman president!!! is simply not appealing and it has nothing to do with identity politics. This economy is destroying the working class. My entire department coworkers voted for trump, almost all of them for the first time. It’s vermont. They’re pro women, pro lgbtq, don’t care about race. But Biden’s economic policies did not help them at all. All of the twice obama thrice trump voters? Same fucking thing. But that doesn’t fit the neat little identity politics narrative conveniently invented to keep people from talking about class issues and gaining class consciousness. You see, the working class greatly surpasses the ruling class in size and we’re heavily armed. Don’t want the working class getting any ideas so best to invent or manipulate identity issues to keep it divided.
If only you’d talk to people instead of parroting liberal MSM talking points that remind me of bush claiming Islamic terrorism was because they hate us! And not you know, the product of decades of US intervention in the Middle East especially the support of Israel’s bullshit.
But objectively Bidens policies were better for them. This is the problem with voting on feels and not data. Unless they voted for Trump to burn the system down in hopes that’d improve things, they voted for their situations to worsen. As well as the situation of those vulnerable groups they ‘care’ about.
But Biden is SOOOOOOOOOO old. Like 3 whole years older than the ancient rapist we just elected.
I mean, we know Democrats are a WAY better option for the average American, but can you imagine someone 3 WHOLE years older than the felon we elected being president? Totally unacceptable.
Her pitch was “more drilling” and “more war” and “no changes to healthcare”.
She tried to buy voters and it failed because noone trusts democrats to follow through on promises without them being backhanded or benefiting a group of people that aren't involved.
Said literally days after Democrats banned medical debt from showing up on credit reports.
I'm referring to her policy proposals of giving money away for various reasons.
What was she clear about again ? Her overwhelming support for the Genocide of Gaza ? Yes
Off the top of my head
DOUBT!
Yeah right, why wasn’t it done already then?
Big whoop, homes will increase 25k in price.
Surging economy for whom?! the liberal elites? Yeah ok.
And the democrats had FIFTY FUCKING YEARS to codify roe v Wade but cynically fundraised off it instead. YEAH RIGHT. That’s total bullshit. If she was serious why didn’t it happen under biden and why would it magically happen under her? No, nothing would change. Just more fundraising, this dumbass spent a billion to lose an election because nobody fucking believes a word out of democrat mouths anymore for good fucking reason! Like an abusive romantic relationship where the partner constantly promises change and never delivers and then gaslights you over it. And you wonder why they’re breaking up!
Bullshit and empty promises. Democrat senator from Connecticut joe Lieberman single-handedly killed Obamacare’s public option after being bribed by the insurance companies that are headquartered in his state. He’s dead but there’s always a democrat patsy to protect the capitalists they actually represent. Sinema, Manchin, the unheard of senate parliamentarian when it came to raising the federal minimum wage. There’s always somebody democrat aligned to protect corporate donors interests and block any kind of meaningful reform.
Too little too late. See the LA wildfires for an example. We’re already cooked. The time to act was decades ago but did the democrats do anything meaningful? NO! They protected their corporate donors and the capitalist class as they always do. Schadenfreude watching the houses of the extreme wealthy burn!
The argument wasn’t whether or not people believed her. It was on whether or not they knew what the policies were.
But to deny she was the better option for Gaza is just delusion.
Except she didn't promise any of that (not her in particular) & the 2-state solution is a farce where the Genocide will still continue & Israel will be given more priority & as for reproductive rights Never though killing unborn children was a reproductive right
Huh? Many of those were her original campaign promises.
Genocide will be ramped up and concerns ignored instead of just continuing while facing increasing public scrutiny and backlash. He literally told you this. Biden was a zionist at heart but Kamala would've softened after winning. And even if she didn't. Argument isn't whether she was good for Gaza, it's that she was objectively, better than Trump.
vs
The current GOP is busy writing "finish them" on Israeli artillery shells. https://www.reuters.com/world/us/nikki-haley-writes-finish-them-israeli-artillery-shell-drawing-criticism-2024-05-29/
There is no argument for letting Trump/GOP get in if you care about Gaza. Of course they're worse.
It has ensured Palestine's erasure. We're now in the 'Greater Israel' period in U.S politics
Giving a woman the right to choose to abort her fetus or not is definitely a reproductive right and also a basic human right.
It's healthcare and it is not for politicians to decide when it should be between a woman and her doctor.
I like how you talk more about Israel/Palestine than you do about the United States.
Priorities looking real good.
Lazy comment is lazy.
You're getting downvoted, but Kamala simply ran a better campaign than Trump. She was all about hope and inclusion, which is undeniably a better message than "hate this person I'm telling you to hate". She decimated him in the debate, going over policy while he talked about immigrants eating pets and having concepts of plans.
She ran a better campaign. In a very short period of time.
She lost because
There's a lot of hate in America.
Americans are easily misinformed and manipulated by disinformation. The average American is too goddamn lazy and stupid to lookup data and make responsible decisions based off that data.
Winning the vote is the only metric that actually counts for how good a campaign is.
That’s what I get stuck on every time. Yeah, the democrats are useless and need to make big changes. They carry a lot of blame. But it’s not just people being fed up with their useless asses. The voters turned out in big numbers to vote FOR Trump. We expected the results to take a long time and be contentious again, but the morning after Election Day his victory was already clear.
It’s just… sad? Discouraging?
Extremely discouraging. I'm still incredulous that he got re-elected, and moreso that the democrats managed to fuck it up bad enough to lose to that fucking guy again
I'll be honest, I can't even really be mad at them. I can't think of anything they should have done differently.
I don't know what you do when your economic plan is countered by "mine is better, I'll give you details later", and "immigrants will eat your pets".
How about not trying to pretend that Biden was fine all through the primary right up until he went up on the debate stage and blew his legs off on national TV? I think that probably would have been a great start.
You're kidding, right?
Thing #1, in giant flashing marquee letters, would've been "pick an AG who would've actually gone after the traitorous coup leader instead of sitting on his ass for two years." Remember, Merrick Garland's original qualification for his SCOTUS nomination was being so conservative that even Mitch McConnell had no excuse to reject him. It should've been blatantly obvious to everyone that that made him the absolute wrong choice for AG.
Things #2 - infinity can basically be summarized as "all the stuff that would actually help the working class, which the Democrats' major corporate donors would never actually allow them to do."
Thing 3: demand biden be a one term president and hold a legitimate primary instead of coronating Kamala who would of never won in a competitive primary that didn’t have the DNC ratfucking it.
Yup. If reality is subjective you can't really win an election without cornering the market on fear, which is the one thing Republicans are good at.
Can't fix dumbass Americans, no matter how good your campaign is.
Okay, but where do you go with that? What do you do with that? There's nothing you can do with "the voters are wrong" except to assure yourself that you're right as you keep getting your ass kicked by sociopaths, idiots, and clowns every election. It's loser talk.
The voters aren't wrong, the democrats need to get up off their ass, stop relying on not being the other guy, and actually give the no-voters a reason to show up to the polls.
I’m of the belief they fucked up on purpose. It’s fraud (not the election, their behavior) so they can fundraise off it.
It's pathetic is what it is.
America gleefully RE-ELECTED an anti-democratic felon rapist who removed women's rights, incited an insurrection, illegally attempted to overturn an election, stole and refused to return classified documents, and fumbled the response to the greatest American crisis since WW2.
We're squarely in the "trash society" category now. The only thing we're the greatest at is having a lot of firepower.
And I personally think it’s astroturfing. The political parties spend tons of $ to influence opinion. Why wouldn’t they hire a bunch of bots to push their message in this space?
How can you lose an election so bad and think that it’s the voters who need to change? The tail does not wag the dog, democrats! I refuse to believe this is genuine sentiment. I live in a very liberal state and IRL conversation it’s fuck the democrats, a whole lot of people I work with were first time trump voters. BLUE STATE. One of the most liberal. Home to Bernie sanders!
Cough, "DarkFuture", cough, replying to every single comment in this thread, cough
It's always the same accounts and there seems to be immediate group voting as you will see an almost immediate and usually similar number in these kinds of posts as if they are waiting and refreshing comments to make sure there is their brand of discontent.
Honestly it's a shame that the mods keep allowing this instead of telling them to shut up and take a breather instead of trying to start fights and make shit up that makes this social site worse on a weekly basis.
I had some time, so I figured I’d call you out again:
In this post:
You commented 54 times
They commented 49 times.
Cough….
I get your point, but absolutely 100% unironically it is the voters who are wrong.
Trump lead an insurrection, is a confirmed rapist, convicted felon, twice impeached, wear dampers because he's incontinencent, openly scammed his voters out of their money multiple times and has vowed to be a dictator.
A sloppy dog shit should have won against him.
Which is why I maintain that it's the DNC's fault. Trying to win by asking voters to vote against someone is a dog shit strategy with a dog shit track record. In fact, in a lot of regards, Kamala's campaign was run pretty similarly to Hillary's. For me, the chief similarity is that they tried to rely on fear and shaming and celebrity appearances (by the second half of the campaign) instead of offering an impactful policy slate. To boot, I seem to recall that a lot of team Hillary ended up running Kamala's campaign, so I guess it's not too shocking that they muzzled a lot of her left leaning ideals and basically ran Hillary pt II. One would have hoped that they would have learned anything from '16 besides voter blaming, though. I'd like to point out that Kamala gained the most ground in the first half of her campaign when it was about excitement, when people were hopeful that she'd have some progressive policies and before it was known that her policy plank was the basic centrist corporate democrat plank.
It also didn't help that they pretended and insisted Joe was fine all through the primary, so we didn't get one, insisted he was fine and we just didn't have any choice but to vote blue after Joe blew his legs off and bled all over the debate stage for 90 minutes on national TV, and only started leaning on him once the really disastrous poll numbers started rolling in.
Exactly, supposedly, it is the voter's fault for not taking Trump seriously, even though the DNC absolutely refuses to.
Except that's ignoring the elephant in the room. Sure they could have run a better campaign, if they did they might have even been able to win, but the best campaign in history is still not going to win over a single MAGA cultists, and even if Kamala won, those people would not go away, they will still be there the next election to vote for a Trump and there propaganda machine will make sure there is even more of them next time too and that they are even more fanatical.
That's the real problem and things aren't going to get better unless we actually stop the maga cult from recruiting and/ or deprogram them.
So you agree with us? This is like, the exact advice Harris didn't follow and a BIG part of why she lost: trying to convince people who will never vote for her to do so at the cost of those who otherwise would have
If you want to purposely ignore the entire fucking point of my comment, sure.
This is your daily reminder that Trump pulled about the same numbers as he did in 2020, but Kamala pulled about 5 million less than Joe did in 2020. The republicans didn't overperform, the democrats underperformed.
Cool, you're completely ignoring the point of my comment.
No. I didn't. The person who won the popular vote was no vote. Fuck maga, the democrats need to be giving people a reason to show up.
Yes you did. And you're still missing it.
The point of my comment is that the election result is a side effect of the real issue.
Trump got 62m votes in 2016, 74m in 2020 and 77m in 2024. So even when the dems DID beat him, and even when he killed off millions of his supporters with covid, he only got more popular. His cult grows and grows and becomes more fanatical. THAT is the real problem. And nothing the dems can do in a campaign will convert a fanatical trump supporter, so unless we can do something to stop his cult growing at the very least, then it's not going to matter how good the dems campaign is.
Yup. We just had the most obvious election we're ever likely to experience and voters still managed to drop the ball. You can place blame on Democrats, and some of it would be justified, but the blame primarily lies on trash ass American voters. We are AWFUL at voting. We are AWFUL at informing ourselves responsibly.
Why not both?
It appears to me that not only does the Democrat party need to get better at messaging, but that a very large swath of Americans are also braindead stupid and easily manipulated.
Well, that's one take. I've worked around a lot of rural Republican voters, and they're probably some of the most heavily propagandized people on earth. There's such a a knowledge and information gulf there by design, it's going to take something huge to break people out of it. True story, I attempted several times throughout my life to get a fair understanding of the situation in Israel, always coming up sort of befuddled except that police states are something I take at face value as bad. This last year has cleared the befuddlement, but feeling good that I had a fair assessment of things before then felt nearly impossible, even with a semi-concerted effort, because of how much bullshit there was on all sides.
But, I'd wager you don't need republicans. Trying to flip republicans is moot. They should be trying to get no-voters.
"Hey, let's vote for a candidate who literally cannot win from a party that hasn't done the necessary work to become nationally viable because I don't want to be part of the two party problem even though if we do so it will guarantee that a felon rapist who incited an insurrection, stripped women of a human right, and illegally attempted to overturn an election will win." - Dipshit 3rd Party Voters
Just as stupid as Trump supporters, as far as I'm concerned.
Well, they got what we told them they'd be getting. Why aren't they celebrating?
They still pop up now and again when they want to justify why Trump being elected was better than the filthy LIBERAL getting into office.
Which, itself, is a bit funny considering that third parties didn't have much influence on that.
Don't forget, liberals are Nazi's and America is committing genocide.
Also "fall of the empire(america)" is a good thing even though that would most certainly result in war crimes and a probable american genocide.
America is committing genocide, but also, liberals are just fearmongering when they say a Trump regime will lead to genocide.
I hate this timeline.
I'll take "shit nobody actually said" for 500 Alex
Narrator: The Stein cicada has gone back underground to hibernate 4 more years. She will eventually resurface to make her cicada noises next election cycle
I take it you don't follow her on social media, because she is still actively posting? What are you accusing her of, exactly?
A true revolutionary I see
Does she still hang much with genocidal autocrats, psychopaths and christofascists?
https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2017/05/flynn-putin-dinner-payment-security-clearance-photo/
Nice. Here's Obama with Putin:
INDISPUTABLE PROOF that he's a Kremlin agent. /s
Posting on social media? So you think just yapping on twitter is enough for her to earn votes?
Name something she’s actually done.
I think the real problem was those that stayed home. Turnout wasn't great.
This is like the ~2 month period in between US election spam, I quite enjoy it. I really don't need 12 months a year of yanks bitching about their idiotic government.
As one of said "yanks" I wholeheartedly agree, chap.
Jill Stein received less than 1% of the vote. Scapegoat someone else.
We don't need a third party. We need ranked choice voting.
Hi! I'm right here!
Liking your new president?
I haven't liked any president in my life, no.
If stopping trump is so important, then why didn't democrats replace First-past-the-post voting with a more representative electoral system? So people could be free to vote how they wish, safe in the knowledge their vote would still be counted against Republicans if their preference didn't win.
More people voting statistically means more votes for democrats. Why are the democrats saying no to these easy votes? Where is the urgency?
What would you do for more then one chance to beat the Republicans? Would you campaign for electoral reform in your state like Alaskans did?
That's right, a state has already done away with FPTP voting. It's possible, as voting is controlled at the state level.
You have to admit that losing to Trump twice is fucking embarrassing, and it should destroy any notion that the democratic party should be the only poltical party to fight this fight. They have more then lost that privilege long ago.
The Democratic party is not more important then the United States of America. If only the DNC felt the same way...
They went the same place the people who raved that any critics of Biden/Harris were cloaked Trump supporters or Russian bots.
Theyre still here, just posting about things that aren't politics.
I'm right here bot boy
Edit:
Just incase youre falling for this argument remember; there is zero chance biden or harris become president now and unless I missed something war in the middle east is still going strong.
I still point out once a week. Republicans and Democrats are the problem. Entirely ditch both parties and grab a third party that's actually terrified of happening to them, what just happened to the Republican's and Democrats and taking our country back from the damn thieves.
But I guess with eye sight like that, you would have trouble seeing what's right in front of you.
The best solution to the two parties excluding the left isn't a third party, it's for the left to register as Republicans and conduct a hostile takeover of the GOP in the primaries.
This can easily succeed in blue states/cities to start out.
If someone was bored enough they could go find the most popular posts from the election cycle and create a list of people pushing what agenda and then track how many of those accounts are suddenly inactive today.
Imagine engaging in a witch hunt and harassment directed at individual users
Comment and post history are basic functions of the platform. Everything you post is linked to your account. No one is wrong for sorting through that data.
I have used the post history a grand total of zero times because I literally don't care about your post history. It's a social network, these people come and go, not the party committee meeting to see who to use as a scapegoat for our failures, today.
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here. What is a software that you use 100% of its features? I don't use the direct messaging feature, so no one else should either. I don't post pictures as posts so no one else should. Lemmy isn't hiding the fact that everything you post is tied to your account. If that's unacceptable then don't use it.
I don't care about your post history.
I do care about broad patterns over thousands of users.
Imagine simping for trolls
Noone said harassing or witch hunt, just figuring out who is a Russian bot
That's the thing, who decides that ?
Yeah, and you are the reasonable person with a brain right?
Don't worry, you'll realize your mistake when the inevitable comes and the party committee finds you guilty of the same
Jesus Christ, you people really got rekt with that election
Don't be a removed, stand behind what you said.
Imagine putting words in someone's mouth because you can't argue against what they said without doing so...
Well if they weren't banned id suppose they are doing the same as the other supporters of other parties?
"I don't see anyone voting for Democrats right now, they must have been turned off by the Kremlin!"
Canadian here,I still think it a good idea to start now. Harris could have been elected you would still need a third party or fifth. I believe Americans have been brain washed against it being even possible.
It isn’t possible without getting rid of the Electoral College.
But the chances of that were also flushed down the drain.
Lots of elections are not tied to the electoral college. Aren't there elected judges, sherrif, senators, etc, state level elections. Oh no it's useless if we can't have a 3rd party president win the next election. So we'll just keep hoping the nice billionaires win the next one. My province has been voting a party that only place people in our province and will never be in power. The rest of the country is often pissed off because we still manage to defend our values by being in the opposition.
But most third parties aren't oriented to winning or holding office. Honestly if you look at the rhetoric of lots of them they seem to be more oriented towards keeping Democrats out. I don't vote for democrats. I vote against Republicans. But every time I go vote in local elections. There are many many offices I leave blank. Because Republicans are running unopposed. I've said many times I would love to see third parties running for these offices that Democrats aren't concerned about. But they don't seem to be concerned about those in all but one or two states. And even those are kind of iffy.
Part of why that happens: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKgNrshVdMw
I am of the opinion that Adam generally makes everything better. And his talk about reigniting community. As an anarchist that resonates intensely. But that video has nothing to do with why no third party groups bother to campaign at all in red states where Republicans are running unopposed. There are no green party candidates for local offices. There are no Democratic or Social Democratic candidates for local offices if we have a Libertarian it's a right-wing libertarian and there will often worse than the Republican but that's the closest we ever get to third party out here I think Adam is 100% on the right track for what Democrats need to do. But what third parties need to do is actually run for local and State office. As well as the stuff that Adam spoke of.
Absolutely, and guess how many offices, both state and national the Green Party - arguably the biggest current 3rd party in the country has? G’wan guess.
That’s right! 153 people in the country were elected as Greens so the Electoral College doesn’t come close to applying. As far as representing my political preferences in the Water District Board of Directors or the Advisory Neighborhood Commission, they’re bringing the revolution to the halls of power slowly but . . . Well, slowly.
As for those billionaires who decide who runs, I don’t really like to be called a billionaire mostly because i’m about a billion dollars short of it, but I have a say in my parties’ candidates by participating.
If everyone scrabbling to eke out a tenuous coalition had any support we’d be getting somewhere with third parties. But we’re not largely because there isn’t support for them. The people in here blowing hard about “oooh don’t vote, it’s all a scam” and “gEnOciDe JoE” do absolutely nothing to support any political organization, and that’s why they disappeared - they were never going to do anything anyway, they just had a mandate to shit on the Democrats and that job is done.
Libertarian party is the strongest third-party and has 186 elected representatives
Gross, almost worse than republicans
And I say the Green Party is gross because it’s worse than democrats
I stand arguably corrected.
So just stop rather than trying to get more elected? Absolutely wish Harris had been elected rather than fuck face mctarrifs. But USA don't even have a centre-left, it's right and far right. The Dems keep losing to the far right, why would they bother moving aven an inch left if there is no one there ?
His full title is actually: his excellency, rapist in chief, pedophile plenipotentiary, amorphous adulterer, freelance felon, the dishonorable Donald Jerkface Trump.
You'd have to define center-left in terms of American.
On here, center-left is deemed to be the malodorous goblins of corporate sleaze, but left is wanting trump to win, so - I dunno. It's weird.
Lemmy != Average america either...dominated by Americans but a very specific set.
TBH other than blatantly and aggregiously lying their ass off in the last referendum about what a split would be like, the BQ actually have decent policies and it would be nicr for all provinces to have that at the federal level.
Then BC would get the number of seats it should have at least.
The point I'm trying to make is influence. Strongly Voting for bloc pulls the other parties policies toward our point of view so they can get at least some seats. Or risk being a minority government. Having a Bernie/ Cortez party running on the left for Senate and the house would have much more pull than they have now. They still could say voir for Harris as president but pour out his on the rest of the ballot. But I can tell even the ideas that they could start changing is offensive.
Not at all, in fact Bernie is in the unofficial largest 3rd party (sorry Libertarians), the Independents. Now of course that's not a party as such, but that was his compromise.
If Bernie and AOC say jump, I'll say how high. But Nothing's new there and we're totally fuX0r3d for the next four years because Jill Stein and a russian op doppelganger crew decided trump for all. Third party? We'll be lucky to have the remnants of a civil society.
Bernie said vote for Harris, but all the "leftist" trolls just ignore that part.
It was a complete coincidence that their positions aligned exactly with russian troll farms. What were the odds?? Amazing.
Only because FPTP is hot garbage. Single Transferable Vote, Ranked Choice, etc are not incompatible with the Electoral College.
Why wouldn’t 3rd parties work in Congress? We already have caucuses and intra-labels like Blue Dog. Bernie still wears a D, as did Manchin.
I constantly see establishment Dems point to X as why we cannot change the voting/election structures, but rarely to never see the same voices agitate to change those same structures. The DNC and RNC like the duopoly, and actively defend it.
Stop. Being. Wrong.
Democratic senators want to amend Constitution to abolish Electoral College
Electoral College ‘needs to go,’ Walz says. Other Democratic candidates have agreed
Democratic voting bill would make biggest changes in decades
It’s usually a good idea to read the sources you’re citing, instead of picking links after a cursory web search:
So glad we’re making performative amendment suggestions AFTER they lost control of all branches of government. They know this is not going to pass in the current Congress, but “we tried” right? Why is it suddenly a priority after a crushing loss, instead of taken care of during the Obama supermajorities or tacked onto a NDAA or similar ‘must pass’ bill? 🧐
C’mon dude, at least browse to the third paragraph…
Voting rights and curbing money is admirable, but not part of what I meant. Reform voting systems, not just eligibility and access
Do these articles NOT show you Dems “agitating” to change those structures? Including the VP nom? I say that a cursory search showed them, and if I were to fuck with enshittified google enough I’d find many more examples.
Would you admit you were wrong then? Perhaps mistaken? Doubt.
So yeah I didn’t finish my doctoral thesis on easily disprovable lies to enable a foregone conclusion, only to illustrate that the huge leaps you made were wrong. I haven’t personally interviewed the 450 members of the DNC either, so your pronouncement that they like and defend the duopoly may be so - but I doubt it.
Defend it with what. Are they preventing third parties from forming? The 53 that are said to exist today must have thwarted them, then. Defending it in seekrit underground caves, hand-in-hand with “christian” nationalists, chanting in latin or lovecraftian? Is there even a NY Post article about it?
Did they refuse to let a russian stooge share the debate stage to continue her bad-faith campaign to throw the election to trump? Yeah they did, and so they should - fuck that bullshit.
Speaking of defending, what about your vaunted third party advocates stating plainly and openly their determination to throw the election to trump? Need a cite for that?
You can falsely categorize the Dems as status-quo mongers but (a) that’s false, (b) some good is better than all bad, (c} you can affect change by participating with them, and (d) third-parties have got nothing, and in four years everyone gets to trip over themselves to have this exact same russian argument again.
Name one third party that has any shot at being elected to national office in four years. Cite your sources, less than a thousand words, papers under your desk, #2 only.
Establishment Democrats forcefully pushing no, not really. Dick Durbin meets that bar as the Senate whip but I can’t find a text of their proposal to see who/how many cosponsors they have - or if it even exists beyond a press release. Waltz is a DC outsider plucked from the Midwest to play the role of VP - be everything the president is not. And like your own linked article quoted, the campaign cut his feet out beneath him immediately and repeatedly.
You have to convince me I’m wrong, not get huffy and claim superiority in an attempt to bully complicity. Your retort is lacking in convincing argument, but is oozing condescension and assumption that I’m bad-faith greeenie/russian bot/.ml tankie spoiler position.
“We have a robust free market, look see? There’s dozens of competitors who all fight for the bottom 5% of the total” what a libertarian ass argument. If we applied anti-trust scrutiny to the parties, there would be forced breakups and structural barriers to them entrenching their grip. There used to be more than two parties that got EC votes in the US, evolving going through schisms and mergers as they react to electoral realities. As a natural reaction to FPTP though, those who failed to combine into an 800lb gorilla, get mauled by the one that did.
Stein is controlled opposition, yes. But you’re swinging at ghosts - I want STV/ranked choice/etc and third party coalitions in Congress, not a token protest vote without a meaningful platform or experience.
AOC just got blocked by Pelosi herself from the exact kind of ‘change from within’ you argue for.
Voters (and spoilers) organized and ran a massive protest and advocacy campaign over Palestine and routinely got told to shove it, from the DNC stage, abandoned support on campuses, shunned and removed from rallies, and generally shunned.
Unless you’re a donor or regular attendee at $3k-$500k per head fundraiser, or are one of the vanishing small intersectional group of voters who get microadvertised to death with focus tested messaging, you don’t matter to them. Your vote is already counted in, because what other option is there? Ooooops.
Circular reasoning. After Citizens United money is what runs elections, and the Democrats insist on looming over the left wing political landscape and beating minority challengers, reinforcing the “losing prospect” narrative for third parties. Europeans manage to build actual coalitions all the time and govern effectively, listening to coalition parties (and thus voters who elected that strand of politician) whilst still managing to run an effective government.
America can legitimately be better, but you have to dare to hope for it, not resign yourself to the lesser evil every cycle, and then shout down everyone else who isn’t. Massively cut election donations and establish universal FEC funding, and ditch winner takes all voting. Otherwise we will continue to see the ratchet click rightward, while the lesser evil just slows the metastasizing fascism - are you okay with that future?
AOC voted to protect the rail corporation from a union strike. We deserve better representation.
You have to prove you’re right, as you made the ridiculous unsupportable claim. I’ve already proven it, you refuse to admit it. Let’s move on.
Uh, sure. Or we could apply RuPaul’s Drag Race scrutiny to the parties and put tape on their doors to make sure they’re not sneaking out. They’re not businesses with products and markets. There’s a fundamental reason we don’t treat them like businesses (although the analogies are admittedly obvious). It’s because your scrappy, revolutionary Pokémon Go party deserves to meet, advocate, advertise, and run for office without being audited by the Shithole State Assessor and OSHA.
So, again, no.
. . . Agree? And? The resulting duopoly - a foregone conclusion - means boo Democrats bad? What’s your point. EC is mandated duopoly. Let’s get rid of it and whatever your point might be can be rendered mercifully moot.
Well, we’re in agreement there. I’m not jazzed about the coalitions only because I think it’s another porkbarrel trap and I don’t have a good sense of how it would work, but, yes.
DoMA was an insult to humanity and all supporting Democrats should have been defenestrated from office. Ironically, the legal challenge was also from Democrats, so. I dunno. Politics.
I’m OOTL since Nov. so not sure what this is in reference to, but if existing officeholders can hold trump to anything I’m not necessarily against it.
Yes. And it was a huge win we wouldn’t have otherwise had. Clinton spent all his first term capital on H4A and the rest of his initiatives were bought-and-paid for with more cops and less welfare or some other political extortion. Obama got it done. It’s better. It’s not possible from any other party, period. Some good. You’re welcome. Thanks for hating the people who did the good.
Yeah the protection was honored by all branches so let’s definitely lose the 80’s & 90’s to conservatives by repeatedly running on that. All you need to do is roll back other progress and find the career politicians willing to be sacrificed. Oh, the party is all-powerful, and can just make them do it? Lol.
Look at this shit - abortion is illegal and these fuckers STILL won. You want them to spend everything on a constitutional amendment to support what was already legal - and fail - to prove they’re genuine? That’s stupid. Yes they should have done everything to protect that right, they failed. AND THEN lost again. I realize it sucks. Politics sucks, what a revelation. Compromise is less fulfilling than heroic purity. Huzzah we’ve cracked it. Please.
Fuck “chatter”. We’ll get boatloads of chatter daily in the next four years. I’m out this time.
Yeah. Which was bullshit. Pelosi needed to go awhile ago. AOC is young. And by the by, your wildly successful third parties are not chairing House Oversight anytime this century. So. You just wanna lay down in the road and die? Okay, but that is a super weird strategy for change. Good luck? I guess.
Yeah. Voters and spoilers. Demanding action, instant change. Spoilers. And voters. What a fantastic wedge. Worked a treat. And now, Palestine is well and truly fucked. Nice work, voters and spoilers.
I suppose we keep on with the camps and so on and hope the trump admin is more receptive? Heh. Oh well. We tried to explain this a hundred ways but it was not a discussion. No one was interested in understanding anything except now, today, immediately. Well. Anyway. You got what you wanted there. Why, I don’t know. It’s the opposite of good, but you demanded it. Okay then, now it’s here.
No. Being active locally is free. They do listen. If you want to cut all ties with Israel and you are upset that haranguing the Poughkeepsie chair of the DNC isn’t getting it done, I’d suggest you reset your expectations of how national politics works. Coincidentally, that applies to third parties too. It’s hard fucking work if you’re not relying on corrupt racists and batshit evangelicals.
Yeah. It’s a republiQan tactic and Democrats want to change it. Third parties should be helping.
You mean they win elections? Why, if it only takes money? Couldn’t Jill Stein or literally any and/or all of the 52 other parties cobble together enough for a freaking House seat or, god, Sheriff of Bumfuck or something? No. They can’t. The “losing prospect” is a chimera. Quit believing in it.
Do they? Well good for them, that’s nice. Except the ones that don’t amirite? England, France, Germany, Australia - all having a little bit of a time with the relative conservative elements aren’t they? Hey howabout that Brexit, huh? Goddamn.
And with Mississippi having a larger GDP than Germany, and a lot of challenges Germany doesn’t have, let’s just say it’s possible an EU style governance may take more than one election cycle from naked authoritarianism.
Very often it means hoping and resigning. The shouting down is an attempt to recognize we’re in serious jeopardy, but alas the idiots, thieves, and newly enlightened have eschewed knowledge, understanding, or responsibility and we are utterly fucked because of it. As to the OP, where are they now.
Agreed. And if it ever happens, in the history of this country as we know it, it will be a Democratic initiative. A mythical Congress of strong, independent, national third parties working together for common good in the next four years is more than a joke, it’s a fucking lie. You can DO - right now, today, as a Democrat, or you can NOT DO today or at any other time in the next at-least-twenty years, as a third party.
Linkerbaan?
Banned. And then .world asks why he went silent lol
Think he was the only blowhard leftist that was yelling at everyone to not vote democrat?
What the fuck happened to all the trick or treaters?
What's Jill Stein up to?
And while we're at it, why am I not hearing from harris every 15 minutes? It should be absolutely constant and inescapable for even the slightest respite after an election, and not only for the US but the entire world on social media should be inundated daily!
I think for a 3rd party you should probably make an effort of more than 2 months every four years. Fuck even MTG would make a better 3rd party candidate.
Have you actually checked her social media? I'm guessing no, because she is still posting?
Have you considered that your stance here, inconsistent with reality, is based on the Dem-pushed "they just pop up every 4 years" narrative, and indicates a lack of neutral analysis and fact-checking on your part? No?
Where does she post? I think Facebook? I don't use it so it does seem to me that she's up to nothing. Does she still support dropping aid to Ukraine?
The only way to create a viable third party is to vote for them. America needs a third choice.
First past the post is the real problem here.
Its definitely a movement that needs to start now. instead of summer 2028. DNC is a zionist first organization. They will reelect Trump to 3rd term, if Israel has not completed its final solution.
America is. The DNC and GOP reflect that. Focus on the DNC to your own peril. The DNC at least can be reasoned with on many things. Until Zionism and Israel are widely unpalatable to the general US public it's not going to change. Either get started manufacturing a new great awakening. Or don't focus on making enemies of everyone. It's a good way to accomplish nothing. As we did.
Like having the world's most warmed milk Palestinian speaker at one of their conventions? There was a whole "uncommited" movement in Michigan that was 10,000% ignored.
Because far more Americans were okay with it or didn't care. The DNC would have actually lost significant support focusing on Gaza more. That's an American people problem before it's a DNC one. The undecided were not the loss leader for the DNC no matter how you look at it. More people stayed home over lack of resonant economic message than Gaza. Now maybe if you looked at the undecided Brain Trust that voted for Trump lol. It might have been slightly bigger. But it still comes in about 3rd or 4th Place from most of the polls I remember seeing.
I take at least a little pleasure in blocking idiotic anti-zionists.
Why bother announcing a block? Did you know you don't have to chant those words for the block to be effective?
Block me as well. Don't forget to wear your religious robes, burn incense, and speak the holy words of blocking!
Done. Thanks for the head's up.
I want a no party system.
There is this...
https://lemmy.ca/post/37043777
Ah cool, that discussion is locked. All we have to do is report him ... In The communities he mods. I love that mods continue to shield this fuck
Reporting him in the communities he mods does go to the Admins of that instance, bypassing the mod structure entirely.
Interesting. Pretty sure he taunted me previously for doing that. Has it always worked that way?
Yup!
Yeah I just got a response back from his shit just works alt with a screenshot of a report I made against one of his posts in his community. Unless he's secretly also the admin of that instance, I'm struggling to understand how that is a thing. Like I said, he taunts users who think they can stop his trolling campaign, and it's exactly what he's done in this case. Showing a screenshot of that report is a head scratcher, other than it's obviously meant to show he knows about the report and that nothing will ever come of it
You can also report PMs, that also goes straight to the Admins of the instance.
UM?
I thought he was on the right wing propaganda train now.
What was it, it's gone. I can't find anything in the modlog either.
Try this link.
Thanks. Lol I forgot about that dude. One of the few people I've blocked.
I don't remember third party proponents. I remember the depression and realization that both parties continue to work hard to make this country suck more.
It's almost like we live under a fundamentally corrupt system designed for slave masters to work together.
This is the time for third parties, not weeks before the election. I honestly would expect them under any US political post to remind people about third parties, forms of protest, etc. But I guess that's less fun than telling anyone trying to at least not pick the worst option pro-genocide. 🤷🏿♀️
Organizing quietly so as not to become targets for reeducation in febuary.
Well I voted for a 3rd party candidate in the UK election, how slow American elections are is rather amusing to me. You were campaigning this time last year and the new government hasn't yet taken power. Meanwhile ours was all done in a few weeks.
How wish I could post my electoral reform copy pasta in every thread I commented in. I've been muted and banned in other instances for doing so. Haven't really pushed my luck in .ml because I want to keep posting garbage content I find.
Perhaps I will be allowed one cheesy copypasta here as a treat?
::: spoiler Videos on alternative voting systems First Past The Post voting (What most states use currently)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7tWHJfhiyo
Videos on alternative electoral systems we can try out.
Alternative vote
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Y3jE3B8HsE
Ranked Choice voting
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Z2fRPRkWvY
Range Voting
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3GFG0sXIig
Single Transferable Vote
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8XOZJkozfI
STAR voting
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-mOeUXAkV0
Mixed Member Proportional representation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QT0I-sdoSXU :::
My city has a new Marxist Leninist party that has started up after the election. So no they aren't gone, but they are still harebrained.
The CEO's in charge are fucking everything up, too. Google, Apple, Adobe, Reddit... They're all getting worse every single day.
Can we stop letting the same 4 people make these posts to just get the dopamine kicks from starting the arguments over all over again?
It's pointless grandstanding to get a fight started and that is basically it and it's the same people every time. People should just be blocking these accounts cause if anyone seems like permanently online trolls or shills it's these accounts making these exact posts like clockwork every single week.
It's lazy and the mods seem to let it happen cause they get a kick from the banning they can dish out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wvbV03A2qg
That Russian unit isn't focused on America anymore, they got reassigned to Ukraine propaganda.
eVeRy tHird pArTY sUpPorTer iS a bOt
You think the way you act is going to bring about any change or influence someone to change their mind. You are delirious. Keyboard warrior going to scare people online into voting the way you want, while preaching for people to lead the change they want to see. It's pathetic. Prime example of the infighting that keeps progressives from getting a real majority in anything.
What proof would you accept?
How about I don't, and I instead just vote 3rd party in all my elections? Or is that only a privilege Democrat and Republican voters get to have
That's a real "I'm 14 and this is deep".
I wish they were all bots. Unfortunately, I believe most are just incredibly stupid Americans.
Why are these anti-third party posts being spammed all of a sudden?
You lost by far greater than the number of third party voters. Not that it would even discredit a third party if you lost by less than that amount, because we're supposed to pick the best candidate, not the randomly chosen "best bet" that's complicit in genocide. This is disgusting.
I talked about it 3 days ago: https://lemmy.ml/comment/16009412
There's less vote discussion going on right now. You want me to continue shilling Claudia de la Cruz anywhere I can?
Third party or bust. Republicans and Democrats are the same.
"Everything I don't like is a shill"
It's like someone instructed an AI to babble political jargon as if it was an old timey villain from the days of silent movies.
I hope to God you chuckled and twirled your mustache while posting that crazed rant.
Literally how, I'm pointing out how this community did a poor job of convincing people to vote
Mods selectively enforcing rules, news at 11.
After reading this comment I see why you get downvoted.
What'd he say?
It was removed for a reason but you can probably find it in the modlogs.
Modlogs show removal reason but not original comment
The original comment is there.
I was with the apathy delegation. And I was right btw. I did in fact tell you so.
Back to Russia of course
I don't know. How many?
Did that make any sense to you when you wrote it down?
I seriously still have absolutely no idea what the hell you're talking about.
How many accounts were banned for saying there wasn’t a democratic primary Kamala would lose?
Zero, probably?
Considering that this isn’t .ml? I’m going to say…. None.
There wasn't time to run a 50 state primary. It takes 6 months to do that and Joe stepped down with about 1/2 that time remaining before the election and a month before the Democratic convention.
Anytime anyone says anything like "wake up [people, sheeple, etc]" all it does is paint yourself as a conspiracy nut.
Just saying. You should stop using that phrase.
Looking at your profile apparently i e downvoted almost everything youve said . So... You must obviously love sounding like a conspiracy nut.
Ok
Hey look everyone! A random person online is suggesting that both sides are the same! This has never happened in the history of ever!
Just because one speaks a lot doesn’t mean they’re saying anything. You’d have gotten the same message across if you had just said:
“bOtH siDeS!”
We’d have gotten the point loud and clear what you were on about.
Dude said "wake up people", we gotta listen to them!
Was wondering how long it was going to take for one of you to whip out the bOoTLiCkEr accusation. It goes hand-in-hand with the bOtH siDeS ideology which is the basis for your every argument.
Right… and you actually believe that whatever loser third party candidate you shilled for would have changed anything? They spent three years saying nothing and doing less. Yet you blame people who voted for candidates that showed that wanted the position and put in the work to make change?
Lastly, the fact that you thought brining my mother into this was a good idea, or made a point just shows you lack the maturity to discuss adult topics so, I’m going to leave you here.
Enjoy your say.