I'm cool with idiots who don't know any better getting what's coming to them... but I'm not really cool with them sneezing on the same door handles I turn.
When kept below about 3C raw milk can last 7-10 days. The problem mainly is in the handling - the longer it's shipped and more it's handled the higher the likelihood it ends up above safe temperatures, reducing that time significantly. And we've all seen how grocery stores handle their perishables... LOL.
Considering farms are pretty much exclusively in rural areas and how rural areas generally lean politically, it's a testament to the human immune system that food poisoning deaths aren't more widespread. Or maybe a testament to the usefulness of food production regulations. Guessing we'll find out which one by 2030, assuming it will be allowed to be reported on.
Or maybe new conspiracy theories will pop up over the next few years, oddly aligning with current health and safety science.
EVEN THOUGH VACCINES CAUSE AUTISM, TURNS OUT THEY'VE BEEN PREVENTING LIBERAL DISEASES THAT CAUSE BABIES TO COUGH THEMSELVES TO DEATH THIS WHOLE TIME!
NOT BRINGING MILK TO JUST UNDER A BOIL MIGHT MAKE IT SAFER TO CONSUME BUT IS HURTING THE OIL COMPANIES THAT GIVE US THE FREEDOM TO TRAVEL (WHEN YOU HAVE AN APPROVED REASON TO TRAVEL)!
SOLAR PANELS STEAL ENERGY FROM THE SUN, REDUCING ITS EXPECTED LIFETIME, BUT BRAND NEW TRUMP PANELS GENERATE FREE ELECTRICITY FROM THE VACUUM WHEN EXPOSED TO DIRECT LIGHT!
Considering farms are pretty much exclusively in rural areas and how rural areas generally lean politically, it’s a testament to the human immune system that food poisoning deaths aren’t more widespread
It may be helpful to read up on food-borne illnesses and their vectors. I say this because what I interpret from your comment is that rural areas are "dirty" and that right-leaning areas are somehow "dirtier" by virtue of being lax in food safety.
Strictly speaking this isn't the way it works and it's important to understand how contamination occurs. Almost all pathogens end up in food in two ways: field hands with inadequate sanitation and contamination through handling, processing, and packaging. The vast majority of these cases occur when food supply chains are long and complex and when safety is compromised in the name of profit. For example cutting corners in poultry handling or paying farm workers by the unit rather than by time, such that they are strongly incentivized to urinate or defecate in the field.
Food production regulations are actually quite stringent further along the supply chain (See the Food Safety Modernization Act and Produce Safety Rule) but there are gaps (this is an ag joke) on the production side, particularly in enforcement.
Your best bet is to seek to shorten the supply chain for the food you buy. Avoid processed foods and buy as close to the source as you can. Favoring organically-grown produce direct from a farmer just about guarantees that your food is safe. For example, organic regulations through the National Organic Program require a long period of time between use of manure and harvesting to ensure pathogens break down. It's a common misconception that poop is used directly on growing crops.
It may be helpful to read up on food-borne illnesses and their vectors. I say this because what I interpret from your comment is that rural areas are "dirty" and that right-leaning areas are somehow "dirtier" by virtue of being lax in food safety.
Yeah, I meant the association between right-leaning and "probably thinks safety regulations are a government overreach and waste of time that can be ignored if you can get away with it". And non-existent rights for immigrant workers, including unhygienic living conditions imposed on them.
And an assumption that choices between profit or safety will be more likely to err on the side of profit than safety if they believe they can get away with it, with the "fuck you, I got mine" mindset seeming to be stronger on the right.
Thanks for the comment and info though. My own comment wasn't really fair or useful.
It's a good point. And certainly a lot are resistant to any oversight or regulation. But I find right-leaning people are actually very quick to obey and are generally pretty compliant, for all the bluster. They are fearful people.
But also there is a strong incentive to ensure food you grow is not going to kill your customers or get you sued. But this only really works when it's you as an individual. As soon as you are a corporation...
People like my boomer mother will buy a gallon of milk and expect it to be good for 2+weeks.
She is part of the reason I do a small shopping every couple days and only buy what I need for the foreseeable future. An entire generation of Americans that are used to everything being so pumped with preservatives that we can eat a Twinkie that rolled under the couch last presidential election.
Yet, we have to scrub eggs of their natural coating at the farm, requiring them to be refrigerated.
Food regulation in the US hasn't moved very far from the 60s.
Is it like a new thing? I never heard anyone making a fuss about raw milk other than like the Amish for the quarter of a century I've been around.
It seems to be based around the people who just look for problems to have, like okay when are people gonna start drinking bottled puddle water because "its got natural minerals and bacteria" or some nonsense.
It is relevant. The quality of the food chain and regulations where you live play a huge role in that particular society's feel about raw products.
You'd be surprised to find that in some countries people eat raw ground pork as a normal thing and nobody dies.
I'd like to know which farm you worked in because the fact you think so poorly about the food that comes out of it means I absolutely need to avoid anything you guys make.
It is relevant. The quality of the food chain and regulations where you live play a huge role in that particular society's feel about raw products.
OK, you got a point there.
For the other part, you can trust me, that in a refrigerator milk will get bad after 3-4 days. If you cool it at about 2-3°C it is good for longer time(obviously), but I can't tell how long exactly, because the milk never gets that old. As for Quality its quite interesting, that you make assumptions about it without knowing anything. I can assure you, that the milk has good quality. It gets tested every 2 days in terms of fat, germs, protein, and SCC and all of those parameters are always good.
And meat goes bad in the fridge after only a few more days but I don't see you having a meltdown over butcher shops existing.
In reality people consume raw milk all the time, it's just some countries with absolutely garbage consumer protections where you should avoid drinking it.
You see, in America, the milk cattle live in terrible conditions. Mastitis is common. In the US, you really have to pasteurize the milk to kill all the bacteria and viruses that end up in the milk because of the conditions they live in.
I can't say anything about the general health and living conditions of the US cattle, but taking your word for granted its devinetively advised. If the cows are kept under good conditions and a good hygiene is practised usually germs in raw milk aren't that much of a problem.
There is a video I will not point you to, because a hundred vegans probably have already, that show how sad and disgusting factory farming in the US is. I wouldn't drink anything that came out of one of those depressing animal factories unless it had been processed to hell and back.
There are better options on the market, but the average American is going to pay a buck or two less for a gallon from the milk factory. Same thing with eggs, meat.
Because raw milk contains everything, including all the fat and all the vitamins.
Processed milk usually is first separated between fat and liquid and then the fat is readded. Also the pasteurization destroys some of the vitamins.
More importantly though it just tastes different.
Finally if you want to make yogurt or cream cheese, you want to work of raw milk because it contains the fermenting bacteria, but that is more of a niche application.
Pasteurization by default does not remove all bacteria and probably also not all viruses. The milk you commonly find in supermarkets these days is not only pasteurized at high temperature, but also homogenized (pressed through a microsieve), which further alters the taste, reduces quality but extends the shelf life.
Finally if you want to make yogurt or cream cheese, you want to work of raw milk because it contains the fermenting bacteria, but that is more of a niche application.
If you're going to make anything from milk that requires bacterial cultures and the conditions under which they will grow, you absolutely do not want whatever random cultures that are in a raw product. You start clean and add the cultures you want to propagate. Source: ferments things at home
I was just giving reason, that exist to prefer raw milk. I only ever drank raw milk when spending vacations on a farm and i didn't buy cow milk since a couple of years.
Still i would like to say that i don't think raw milk is a problematic vector for pandemics to spread. Chance is people will get the shits if hygiene is bad, but i doubt a viral pandemic to spread because of raw milk. More likely would be farm workers getting an infection over the air and then spreading it to other humans.
Crazy how if it was any democrat saying drink raw milk s/he would likely be accused of a conspiracy in which he is trying to spread bird flu so they can have another pandemic and vaccine manufacturers make money out of it. But when a republican says it, s/he is probably celebrated for using the wisdom of our grand grand parents.
If it were to mutate to spread between humans without decreasing in lethality it would probably be the deadliest event in human history by a significant margin.
It has been contracted by humans, but because we pasteurize and ultra pasteurize, the problem has been mostly moot. I’m still using ultra pasteurized dairy. It’s typically those who work very closely with the animals and such. Many a farmer will dip into that raw milk for their own table too.
CDC data has 29 human cases 15 of which were serious to critical, with 7 deaths. That is NOT a large enough pool to establish a meaningful percentage, but it’s worth keeping an eye on with some level of concern. Especially with the number of medically minded dipshits we have in this country.
Better that than confused people watching videos of Joe Rogan or Trump or something, maybe there's a natural deterrant against disinformation in the name by just getting people to watch cows all day long. Then again I'm sure people would start taking cow dewormer eventually.
I've seen some shit claiming pasteurization is harmful and I just have to ask if the people who believe that know what pasteurization even is, because how the hell does boiling it make it harmful? Shit... If boiling milk makes it toxic, you better stay away from cheese. And a lot of baked goods. Creamy soups. Pasta dishes. Etc.
Not even fully boiling. To quote Wikipedia, because I'm lazy:
The liquid moves in a controlled, continuous flow while subjected to temperatures of 71.5 °C (160 °F) to 74 °C (165 °F), for about 15 to 30 seconds, followed by rapid cooling to between 4 °C (39.2 °F) and 5.5 °C (42 °F).
Literally 30 seconds of "pretty hot". And people are risking serious illness, even death, over some mythical beliefs about how nutrition works.
This is the whole “gluten is poison” (for people not actually intolerant to gluten) all over again. Those people also had no idea that it was just wheat protein.
It hasn't been documented yet, sure, I'll give you that. You and I both have no idea if it has happened already and the patients didn't get tested or they didn't go to the hospital or doctor with the bird flu. They might not have even realized they had the flu.
TLDR: they boil milk to nuke bacteria, "raw milk" is what they call milk that hasn't had that happen and is dangerous, especially considering recent events.
It’s so bizarre to see this discussion play out on the basis of “health”
Because there is a legitimate discussion to be had about the economics of how milk pasteurization requirements have affected local dairy farms. How the unsanitary conditions of industrial scale milk production have made it a necessity. How marketing and corporate interests have shifted consumption patterns.
And yet these fucking dipshits have turned this in to “pasteurized milk personally harms you!” In grifter circles.
How screwed are we that we can’t talk about the complexities of how corporate farming practices have effected our food supplies with out couching it in terms of “health food”.
I cannot express how much I hate the term “health food”. There is no such fucking thing as a “health food”.
It makes me want to rip my hair out when these topics come up.
This problem has always bugged me writ large as well. It seems nearly impossible to have any conversation that looks at the bigger picture of things in a complete and nuanced way.
Take for example employment rates. It’s just taken as a given that high employment is the goal. But stop and think about that for a second. In any other part of your life is your goal to completely saturate all time with labor? No, obviously not.
But the goals are set and we must achieve them. More money next quarter than last quarter, it doesn’t matter if every conceivable customer already has a subscription, we must grow. Make the product cheaper to make, charge more, do anything but consider that we might have picked stupid goals.
Agreed with everything you said. I had a class about bio processes and one of them was about production of cheese and during the class both our professor and the scientist that was walking us through the chemistry of cheese making were constantly talking how pasteurization was really good for us all and how annoying it was that it made cheese making more difficult because of the way it messed with casein and other proteins, making it so that the cheese wouldn't "coagulate" correctly (they used a specific term that I cannot remember for the life of me, sorry) but that was all. A protein being bent up a bit doesn't negatively affect the milk of where just drinking it or using it to bake, Ave even for cheese making there are tequiniques to still make it into cheese with pasteurized milk.
Ugh my wife's step-sisters husband is a pharmacist. His body is riddled with tumors but he swears the ivermectin and supplements are what's fighting the cancer. Not the chemo. Nope. That's promoting the cancer.
Agreed. I'm not to fond of him (or my wife's step-sister, for that matter)...obviously I don't want him to die, or be in pain...but I feel real bad for his kids (my step-niblings). They're already at a tough age (middle school), their dad is dying, and they've all drunk the Kool aid. The whole side of the family has, save for maybe one or two of my half-BILs.
Last week, the mom (who runs an upscale clothing store) was saying she only wants to hire old white ladies and won't hire kids anymore. The daughter pipes up saying "yeah kids these days are lazy, they don't want to work", parroting the parents talking points. But literally 30 seconds later, the mom is saying that it's the slow season and she's spending most of her day watching Netflix. The self-awareness is just completely missing.
Even if you do 95% everclear (which we don't even have in the EU, we'd fucking kill ourselves with that shit), you'd still only get 47.5% alcohol with the rest being milk, which is not enough to sterilise it.
Like above 42% will kill a lot of stuff in it, but it's not enough to sterilise it.
Sure man, but I'm a pedant with a shit sense of humour and I like to point out myths that may or may not be actually relevant if it "came down to it." And unlike in the movies where you just spray some whisky on a wound, alcohol isn't a magical get-rid-of-all-chance-of-infection when it's in levels of like <50%.
A lot of people take humor as fact, either by not understanding it as satire or by thinking it's funny because it's true etc. So while a bit of a party pooper, I don't think some light correction is all that harmful.
Fuck, dude, it's already in California? I was hoping it was at least somewhat contained to Canada but clearly I haven't been keeping up with the news on the issue.
It’s in our factory farming animals. It’s been that way for a while. The administration if just fucking around with it and not culling like they should.
And farmers are concealing their infected herds because they don’t want their animals culled. So just assume it is everywhere. We are probably on pandemic II feat. RFK Jr and Trump very soon and it is going to be a lot of fun.
Yeah, who knows. There is a possibility that they get a vaccine for farm animals soon and that ends the pandemic. But I’m not counting on it. I’ve stocked up on masks and the like, but I’ve never stopped with social distancing, masking and the like so a new flu pandemic isn’t going to change my life much.
Cardiovascular disease is never going to be contagious, except through socially transmitted values that say it is okay to commit atrocity against cattle.
Some people might have said the same about cancer too
Edit: Forget cancer.
Viruses are one of the most common causes of heart inflammation. When an infection leads to myocarditis, health experts refer to it as infective myocarditis. Myocarditis can occur if the virus infects heart tissue. This can trigger an immune system reaction that may result in inflammation of heart muscle tissue
Fr. It tastes the same, barely taxing for the environment compared to cow milk (depending on the type of milk), plus you don't torture animals. Sounds like a win-win-win situation to me
Edit: Gimme your downvotes guys. I thrive on them 💅🏻
There are some brands that emulate the taste of cow milk for those who want that is what I meant. Obviously my view is skewed given that I've been vegan for like 4 years
The main thing for me is most people are lactose intolerant to some degree. It can be worth trying alternative milks just to see if you feel better with it.
Forceful impregnation, constant pregnancy, kicked and beaten calves and their mothers, separation of calves from the mother and their killing. Shall I go on?
artificial insemination isn't torture. cows aren't kept constantly pregnant. kicking and beating cows isn't part of husbandry. killing cows at the end of their useful life is fine.
Doing so to a creature who can't consent is pretty wack though.
cows aren't kept constantly pregnant
Female mammals, including cows, produce milk as a result of pregnancy in order to feed their young. The dairy industry is for-profit, they're not going to let their dairy cows have downtime from producing milk if there's money to be made.
kicking and beating cows isn’t part of husbandry.
The meat and dairy industries have lobbied hard for ag-gag laws criminalizing photography on their farms after abuses have been discovered by undercover investigators and activists. It is undoubtedly a part of animal agriculture. Here's a whole paper about it, if it interests you.
killing cows at the end of their useful life is fine.
It definitely isn't the worse part of the miserable lives we make them live after breeding them in massive numbers. It's probably a relief at that point.
Also, just a sidenote here, I scrolled a bit through your history and you seem to go on the defensive for meat and dairy whenever you come across anything relating to veganism or the negative impacts of those industries. You engage with vegan content much more than I do and I'm vegan! I don't think I can change your mind about veganism, nor do I really feel the desire to write any more than I already have. But, I don't know, maybe go comment on stuff you enjoy rather than getting riled up about this stuff? It might make for a more enjoyable experience on lemmy.
According to google, they need to birth one calf a year after a 9 month pregnancy, so they are pregnant 3/4 of their adult life, that sounds close enough to constant.
Also, did you need to make 5 different comments?
Thanks for writing this up. I just knew they would get all defensive so I didn't even want to bother replying, but I'm very happy about other people chiming in. vegoon btw ❤️
The meat and dairy industries have lobbied hard for ag-gag laws criminalizing photography on their farms after abuses have been discovered by undercover investigators and activists.
and that's bad
but it's still not necessary to kick cattle for milk
So, I don't really understand the science, but my son is only able to drink raw milk. When he drinks normal milk, he has terrible stomach aches and mad diarrhea. When he drinks raw milk, it's all rainbows and butterflies. For reference, he's 3 and has been drinking the raw milk for around a year and a half. Also, the rest of the family had no issues drinking pasteurized milk. Maybe somebody smarter than me could explain why this is?
Recently, I made mozzarella from scratch. In order to do that, I needed some milk that wasn't homogenised. Homogenisation is the process of breaking up the fat globules within milk into smaller droplets so they're more evenly dispersed throughout the liquid, meaning there won't be a fatty layer that separates out when you leave the milk to stand.
Most milk that you buy at the supermarket would be both homogenised and pasteurised. I learned that pasteurised milk could work for cheese, depending on the specific temperature the milk was heated to during pasteurisation (because the required minimum temperature for pasteurization is below the temperature that causes issues for mozzarella, but some brands pasteurise at a higher temperature. Unfortunately most brands don't say what temperature they pasteurise at, but I got lucky with the first one I tried). That part's not especially relevant to you and is mostly cheese related
The thing I wanted to suggest, out of scientific curiosity more than helpfulness, is that I wonder how your son would do with pasteurised, non-homogenised milk — perhaps it's the homogenisation that's causing the problem, rather than the pasteurisation. If you do try this, I'd be interested to hear back how things go; I haven't heard of anyone having issues like this before
FWIW, there's a lot we don't know - but are learning - about bacteria and the gut. For example, if I'm not mistaken, a baby gets a lot of important gut bacteria from it's mum through breastfeeding.
So when I hear all this argument about raw vs pasteurised milk, I expect there really is something of health benefit to raw milk, just there's a big downside of harmful pathogens that can be cured with pasteurization. That doesn't mean all raw milk is unsafe. Like with raw eggs in the UK, or not iodizing your vegetables, it can be safer with care over production.
Anyway, that is to say, I figure there could be some interaction with the bacteria in the raw milk helping your son to digest it.
But having seen the other comment suggesting homogenisation, that sounds more likely to me. (Just a guess though.)
There seems to be some disagreements among the healthcare community as well. With my son, we tried normal milk, goat's milk, and raw. The raw was the only one that didn't cause the gut issues. We mentioned this to his pediatrician, and he told us there was no difference. When we mentioned the variance to a different physician, he said there absolutely would be reason for him to react with the pasteurized but not the raw. I think he mentioned something about the breakdown of protiens when milk is pasteurized, but I can't remember for sure.
For some reason all the soy and oat milks I've tried taste terribly sour and bitter to me. At times I think "am I going crazy", when people around me describe them tasting sweet.
Though also some vegetables, like coriander and parsley taste soapy and bitter to me, so maybe its some quirky genetics thing.
I felt so much better once I stopped drinking cow milk. If you look into the science, you really don't need it in your diet at all. Dairy lobbyists managed to get the government to promote it as necessary for health, though.
I wish they would irradiate it instead of boiling. Irradiation is completely safe and preserves the nutritional benefits. But the raw milk people are generally opposed to that, and irradiation has a PR problem. Sadness.
UHT does, 140C for 2-5 seconds. Shelf-stable without refrigeration for up to nine months unless you open it.
Frankly speaking the difference between milk from cows with good diet vs. from cows fed protein slop is greater than between the modes of processing.
Still have PTSD from my mother feeding me raw milk -- unlike in the US it's legal here, also heavily regulated so it wasn't a health risk microbiology-wise but boy am I sensitive to even slight off-tastes in milk because yes you're going to interrupt the cooling chain and no that fridge doesn't have 8C. Unless you're a cheesemaker or such and it's necessary for the process, stay away from raw.
And, no, it doesn't have health benefits. Maybe if your kid doesn't play outside in the mud and the milk is the only source of germs they're exposed to, then it may help them to not develop autoimmune disorders. Be sane, choose mud over milk.
Only time I've had raw milk was when I was a kid and visited farming friends, since they had a pitcher in the fridge from that days milking. They used it in cooking usually, but it wasn't that bad to drink.
The laws regarding cow and milk health is way different in Sweden that most other countries though, very strict routines around testing. We can eat raw eggs from the store.
You know that exact kind of thing is why you're known as arrogant swots all over Europe, don't you? Do you google whether Denmark has safe tap water before going on ølviking?
If I'm in Denmark to drink beer I take the custom where I am. If the tap water isn't good, I drink something else.
In my town we had a huge outbreak of cryptosporidium which poisoned all tap water in the city, so no matter regulations no place is guaranteed safe. That's why you test stuff. If anyone find unhealthy results you need to contain, treat and inform to minimize damage and exposure risk
The reason we are known as arrogant swots is probably not our husbandry rules but our foreign policies that can be naive or straight up delusional (such as thinking chat control is net positive).
I don't really know though since I have no possibility to leave my farm to travel, neither in time or monetary capabilities
Well yes that's another reason but trust me when I say that you're not the only European country with standards for milk and eggs. There's nothing to brag about. Also, do you even raw pork.
Yeah, we haven't had trichinella in our domestic pork animals for ages so we can indeed eat raw pork
The thread started about infected milk so I just gave an example of an area where the risk is minimal to emphasize that it's a legislation or control issue rather than an issue with the food item by itself. I didn't mean to attack you or imply that any other country is lesser, just that it's possible to combat if the political will exists
It taste differently and it usually hasnt gone through the separation of cream from the milk so it has high fat content and sometimes fat drops on the surface
It's not that they caused it, it's that they're putting this forward as a healthier and better alternative to pasteurized milk, which leads to the connection with the news.
It looks like it's State laws that govern whether raw milk sales is legal or not. In Colorado, Arkansas, Alabama, DC, Delaware, and many others it's completely illegal.
What does the federal government have to do with it? It's already illegal to transport it across state lines according to federal law.
I grew up on a dairy farm and we drank raw milk every day. I can remember my sisters bringing the milk pitcher to the barn and dipping into the bulk tank of raw milk every morning or so. No one got sick and no one died. We even made butter at home from it after separating the cream. But pasteurization is a good thing for all you urbane urbanites out there. It increases the shelf life and safety for consumption. Plus it reduces number of small dairies near population centers that used to exist. Dairies can be 100+ miles away now. After all, you wouldn't want to be exposed to the smell of cow shit right?
Raw milk does taste very different from store bought pasteurized milk, (whole milk ain't whole). And like shelf stable milk, I doubt anyone of you would like drinking it.
Those are also cows you personally owned and cared for. You knew their health, you knew their living conditions, and the milk wasn't produced soley (or maybe at all) for big corporate profits where production is the goal, and the animals well-being isn't.
I'm sure other people would be more supportive if the sources could be trusted, but that's difficult when you've seen how livestock is treated.
You do understand that ALL dairy farms that sell milk are regularly tested for safety of the milk they sell. This is federally mandated. You miss the thresholds for bacteria counts, you will be dumping all your milk produced until it tests clean again. So those cows can't be held in very dirty and vile conditions because your milk won't pass those mandated tests. Slackers go broke and are out of business in short order.
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for selling pasteurized milk in stores. The milk you buy in the store can be a week old before you see it on the shelf. But the unreasoning fear of raw milk is just plain ridiculous.
Those inspections are carried out by federal inspectors. The incoming administration wants to severely cut funding for pretty much “the government” (except the military). That means fewer inspectorsand less thorough inspections. That’s how things like the Boar’s Head thing, and listeria outbreaks in spinach happen. They’re happening more and more because of industrial farming processes coupled with more relaxed federal inspections.
After surviving one pandemic, it's totally fair that some of us are a bit wary of raw milk now because multiple places have found bird flu in it. Judging us in the way you are isn't okay.
There was panic about raw milk looonnnggg before Covid. And I if you had read what I wrote, I did say pasteurization IS a good thing and I'm all for it. But it's just not the evil most think it is.
How was I judging? I was defending those of us who are concerned about the whole raw milk having bird flu thing. I was simply saying that those of us with concerns are valid in our feelings.
If you read all of bluewing's comments, the tone comes off, imo, as talking down to those of us who are concerned. Bluewing grew up on a dairy drinking raw milk every day and didn't get sick and seems to be exuding a sense of superiority because of it.. I also grew up on raw milk and didn't get sick from it. Doesn't make me less concerned over bird flu lol
If you read all of bluewing’s comments, the tone comes off, imo, as talking down to those of us who are concerned
And yet they specifically acknowledged the importance of pasteurization, etc, while simply saying in the right setting raw milk is tasty. That's not judging that's simply providing their perspective.
You are being overly sensitive and... IMO & LOL, "exuding a sense of superiority". Don't take it too seriously but I always find that basic hypocrisy - and I acknowledge we all do it - just so hilarious.
LOL... the downvoting. I think as usual people read the first sentence and that's it. So you saying "pasteurization is a good thing" got lost.
PASTEURIZATION IS A GOOD THING
But totally agree - raw milk, in the right situation and handled appropriately, which means COWS YOU KNOW is just so much better. To the point where after our one neighbor we'd get it from moved away I just stopped drinking milk at all.
Of course there's a difference. That's like saying there's no difference between a rare steak and a well done steak. Yes, they're both steak, and to some extent they taste the same, but they are very different.
I bet the solution is so fast, it’s past your eyes before you know it.
Edit: for anybody who is hearing impaired.
Sounds like something a guy named Louie would think of.
idk, seems like an idea that should be sent out to pasture.
Louie CK? Funny guy, weird shaped penis.
Hmm, a sign language pun. Interesting!
Past-yer-eyes milk. Nice.
Some relatively unknown French microbiologist is rolling in his grave right now.
Sacre Bleu!
Mmmmerde!
"LOUIS PASTEUR WAS A FASCIST IN LINE WITH THE NEW WORLD ORDER!" - Big D
Fun fact:
The dairy was fined in 2023 for a Salmonella outbreak and is very militantly anti-government.
The why seems pretty clear.
Just have a spoon of pesticides after drinking that pure natural raw milk. If it's good for the corn it's good for you.
Throw in some powerful antibiotics too ... if it's good for the cow, it's good for you
Must undergo a rectal palpation first, in order to
assesassess health.Don't forget to sun your taint. I hear that cures all sorts of things
A sun-goatse of sorts.
A bit of roundup and horse paste, the MAGA cure-all.
I'm cool with idiots who don't know any better getting what's coming to them... but I'm not really cool with them sneezing on the same door handles I turn.
Except the same people end up serving it to their kids
Weird. I thought they were anti-abortion.
Only until they're born. After that, they're 100% pro death. Execution penalty all the way.
Am i seeing this right, that you can buy raw milk in grocery stores? What the fuck?
Raw milk gets bad way to fast in order to sell it in a grocery store.
Imagine deliberately paying a premium for food that can make you seriously ill.
This applies to maybe 80% of what's in a grocery store.
When kept below about 3C raw milk can last 7-10 days. The problem mainly is in the handling - the longer it's shipped and more it's handled the higher the likelihood it ends up above safe temperatures, reducing that time significantly. And we've all seen how grocery stores handle their perishables... LOL.
Filthy farming practices don't help.
No they don't. And that applies universally.
Considering farms are pretty much exclusively in rural areas and how rural areas generally lean politically, it's a testament to the human immune system that food poisoning deaths aren't more widespread. Or maybe a testament to the usefulness of food production regulations. Guessing we'll find out which one by 2030, assuming it will be allowed to be reported on.
Or maybe new conspiracy theories will pop up over the next few years, oddly aligning with current health and safety science.
EVEN THOUGH VACCINES CAUSE AUTISM, TURNS OUT THEY'VE BEEN PREVENTING LIBERAL DISEASES THAT CAUSE BABIES TO COUGH THEMSELVES TO DEATH THIS WHOLE TIME!
NOT BRINGING MILK TO JUST UNDER A BOIL MIGHT MAKE IT SAFER TO CONSUME BUT IS HURTING THE OIL COMPANIES THAT GIVE US THE FREEDOM TO TRAVEL (WHEN YOU HAVE AN APPROVED REASON TO TRAVEL)!
SOLAR PANELS STEAL ENERGY FROM THE SUN, REDUCING ITS EXPECTED LIFETIME, BUT BRAND NEW TRUMP PANELS GENERATE FREE ELECTRICITY FROM THE VACUUM WHEN EXPOSED TO DIRECT LIGHT!
It may be helpful to read up on food-borne illnesses and their vectors. I say this because what I interpret from your comment is that rural areas are "dirty" and that right-leaning areas are somehow "dirtier" by virtue of being lax in food safety.
Strictly speaking this isn't the way it works and it's important to understand how contamination occurs. Almost all pathogens end up in food in two ways: field hands with inadequate sanitation and contamination through handling, processing, and packaging. The vast majority of these cases occur when food supply chains are long and complex and when safety is compromised in the name of profit. For example cutting corners in poultry handling or paying farm workers by the unit rather than by time, such that they are strongly incentivized to urinate or defecate in the field.
Food production regulations are actually quite stringent further along the supply chain (See the Food Safety Modernization Act and Produce Safety Rule) but there are gaps (this is an ag joke) on the production side, particularly in enforcement.
Your best bet is to seek to shorten the supply chain for the food you buy. Avoid processed foods and buy as close to the source as you can. Favoring organically-grown produce direct from a farmer just about guarantees that your food is safe. For example, organic regulations through the National Organic Program require a long period of time between use of manure and harvesting to ensure pathogens break down. It's a common misconception that poop is used directly on growing crops.
Some reading:
USDA food borne illness guide: https://www.fsis.usda.gov/food-safety/foodborne-illness-and-disease FSMA Final Rule on Produce Safety: https://www.fda.gov/food/food-safety-modernization-act-fsma/fsma-final-rule-produce-safety
Yeah, I meant the association between right-leaning and "probably thinks safety regulations are a government overreach and waste of time that can be ignored if you can get away with it". And non-existent rights for immigrant workers, including unhygienic living conditions imposed on them.
And an assumption that choices between profit or safety will be more likely to err on the side of profit than safety if they believe they can get away with it, with the "fuck you, I got mine" mindset seeming to be stronger on the right.
Thanks for the comment and info though. My own comment wasn't really fair or useful.
It's a good point. And certainly a lot are resistant to any oversight or regulation. But I find right-leaning people are actually very quick to obey and are generally pretty compliant, for all the bluster. They are fearful people.
But also there is a strong incentive to ensure food you grow is not going to kill your customers or get you sued. But this only really works when it's you as an individual. As soon as you are a corporation...
Doesn't it last 5-7 days? In Europe it is long enough.
People like my boomer mother will buy a gallon of milk and expect it to be good for 2+weeks.
She is part of the reason I do a small shopping every couple days and only buy what I need for the foreseeable future. An entire generation of Americans that are used to everything being so pumped with preservatives that we can eat a Twinkie that rolled under the couch last presidential election.
Yet, we have to scrub eggs of their natural coating at the farm, requiring them to be refrigerated.
Food regulation in the US hasn't moved very far from the 60s.
All i can say is, that at "normal" refrigirator temperatures milk will be good for 3-4 days. Cant say anything for temperatures below that
Looked at milk I have.
Did you mean 3-4 days since purchase? Here it's counted from production date.
I mean 3-4 days since production. In this case it might be higher, since Theres no exposure to the surrounding air.
Is it like a new thing? I never heard anyone making a fuss about raw milk other than like the Amish for the quarter of a century I've been around.
It seems to be based around the people who just look for problems to have, like okay when are people gonna start drinking bottled puddle water because "its got natural minerals and bacteria" or some nonsense.
Raw water was a thing. Not sure if it's still a trend but it definately happened.
Isn't that just like Fiji water type brands where they just "fill the bottles with natural spring water" when it's just coming from some basin?
Here's the link to the Cleveland Clinic article about the raw water trend: https://health.clevelandclinic.org/raw-water
Why are people surprised by this? Do you guys not have refrigerators in your grocery stores?
Raw milk gets bad after about 3-4 days, even with constant cooling. This period is way to short to sell it at grocerie stores in any big scale.
Are you american?
Bo and it is in no way relevant. Since it seems like you think that what I say is wrong, I know this, because I came from a farm.
I know what you mean but this amuses me immensely.
username checks out
It is relevant. The quality of the food chain and regulations where you live play a huge role in that particular society's feel about raw products.
You'd be surprised to find that in some countries people eat raw ground pork as a normal thing and nobody dies.
I'd like to know which farm you worked in because the fact you think so poorly about the food that comes out of it means I absolutely need to avoid anything you guys make.
OK, you got a point there.
For the other part, you can trust me, that in a refrigerator milk will get bad after 3-4 days. If you cool it at about 2-3°C it is good for longer time(obviously), but I can't tell how long exactly, because the milk never gets that old. As for Quality its quite interesting, that you make assumptions about it without knowing anything. I can assure you, that the milk has good quality. It gets tested every 2 days in terms of fat, germs, protein, and SCC and all of those parameters are always good.
And meat goes bad in the fridge after only a few more days but I don't see you having a meltdown over butcher shops existing.
In reality people consume raw milk all the time, it's just some countries with absolutely garbage consumer protections where you should avoid drinking it.
NO NO NO raw milk bad! Alternative ideas bad! New evidence bad! Bad things bad!
We do, but we also have pasteurization.
It's like saying 'yes we have foie gras but we also have store brand meat product.'
Mmm gourmet bacteria and viruses.
If they're not from the USA they're just sparkling pathogens.
Oh no, germs. You should go ahead and inject yourself with UV bleach.
You should go ahead and inject yourself with e. coli.
I would but the food control and regulations in my country make it unlikely to happen.
You see, in America, the milk cattle live in terrible conditions. Mastitis is common. In the US, you really have to pasteurize the milk to kill all the bacteria and viruses that end up in the milk because of the conditions they live in.
I can't say anything about the general health and living conditions of the US cattle, but taking your word for granted its devinetively advised. If the cows are kept under good conditions and a good hygiene is practised usually germs in raw milk aren't that much of a problem.
There is a video I will not point you to, because a hundred vegans probably have already, that show how sad and disgusting factory farming in the US is. I wouldn't drink anything that came out of one of those depressing animal factories unless it had been processed to hell and back.
There are better options on the market, but the average American is going to pay a buck or two less for a gallon from the milk factory. Same thing with eggs, meat.
Conscious food choices are a luxury, here.
They're forced to stand in their own squalor without stalls being mucked out. It's cruel and disgusting.
Okay, whether or not raw milk is generally safe, why buy it when there's an alternative that removes the pathogens?
These people voted for trump. Critical thinking isn't in their repertoire.
THe PaThOGeNs aRe gOoD fOr yOU!!!!
Because raw milk contains everything, including all the fat and all the vitamins.
Processed milk usually is first separated between fat and liquid and then the fat is readded. Also the pasteurization destroys some of the vitamins.
More importantly though it just tastes different.
Finally if you want to make yogurt or cream cheese, you want to work of raw milk because it contains the fermenting bacteria, but that is more of a niche application.
Pasteurization by default does not remove all bacteria and probably also not all viruses. The milk you commonly find in supermarkets these days is not only pasteurized at high temperature, but also homogenized (pressed through a microsieve), which further alters the taste, reduces quality but extends the shelf life.
If you're going to make anything from milk that requires bacterial cultures and the conditions under which they will grow, you absolutely do not want whatever random cultures that are in a raw product. You start clean and add the cultures you want to propagate. Source: ferments things at home
Why are you getting your vitamins from milk?
Most people get their vitamins from their food, not from dietary supplements.
Last I checked, food other than milk exists.
What the fuck kind of stupid answer is that?
Last I checked, food other than beans exists.
I was just giving reason, that exist to prefer raw milk. I only ever drank raw milk when spending vacations on a farm and i didn't buy cow milk since a couple of years.
Still i would like to say that i don't think raw milk is a problematic vector for pandemics to spread. Chance is people will get the shits if hygiene is bad, but i doubt a viral pandemic to spread because of raw milk. More likely would be farm workers getting an infection over the air and then spreading it to other humans.
People who study viruses for a living seem to think it's possible, but I guess as long as you doubt it, no problem.
Pandemic from raw milk? Do you have a source for that?
Louis Pasteur is rolling in his grave...
He is boiling in his grave. Probably milk.
Only for a few seconds. And he's not even boiling. After that he's fine.
rollingcurdlingWonder if they tried heating the milk up to 63 degrees C for 30 mins before consumption?
Maybe that would help.
Nah just add a little ivermectin and you're good!
Just use bleach! It kills 99.9 percent of germs.
I've been injecting Oxy-Clean™ - my lungs never felt so fresh!
Why would you say crazy, nonsense things like that?
Sorry, I am out of line.
But I do think it could catch on.
Crazy how if it was any democrat saying drink raw milk s/he would likely be accused of a conspiracy in which he is trying to spread bird flu so they can have another pandemic and vaccine manufacturers make money out of it. But when a republican says it, s/he is probably celebrated for using the wisdom of our grand grand parents.
I mean, viruses are kind of Trumps thing. Maybe H5N1 kills another million or so to mark his second term.
H5N1 is way, way more lethal than Covid19.
If it were to mutate to spread between humans without decreasing in lethality it would probably be the deadliest event in human history by a significant margin.
It has been contracted by humans, but because we pasteurize and ultra pasteurize, the problem has been mostly moot. I’m still using ultra pasteurized dairy. It’s typically those who work very closely with the animals and such. Many a farmer will dip into that raw milk for their own table too.
CDC data has 29 human cases 15 of which were serious to critical, with 7 deaths. That is NOT a large enough pool to establish a meaningful percentage, but it’s worth keeping an eye on with some level of concern. Especially with the number of medically minded dipshits we have in this country.
On the bright side, if H5N1 kills off all its hosts, it'll effectively eradicate itself
H5N1 would kill a lot more than a million if it goes H2H.
it would be celebrated as "freedom"
I'm told that if you mix in some bleach, it'll "do a tremendous number" on the pathogens.
https://xkcd.com/1217/
always a relevant xkcd no matter the topic
Except for the fact of there always being a relevant xkcd. Maybe Randall isn't big on self-reference.
America, home of the brave and land of fucking around and finding out.
Damn.
I didn't have "Raw Milk encouraged by the US govt. causes second pandemic in 5 years" on my bingo card for 2025.
I'm not ready for Moovid...
I like to moovid, moovid.
Or cowvid for that matter
I vote Cowvid, but I'm concerned about it being confused with videos of cows.
Better that than confused people watching videos of Joe Rogan or Trump or something, maybe there's a natural deterrant against disinformation in the name by just getting people to watch cows all day long. Then again I'm sure people would start taking cow dewormer eventually.
I've seen some shit claiming pasteurization is harmful and I just have to ask if the people who believe that know what pasteurization even is, because how the hell does boiling it make it harmful? Shit... If boiling milk makes it toxic, you better stay away from cheese. And a lot of baked goods. Creamy soups. Pasta dishes. Etc.
Not even fully boiling. To quote Wikipedia, because I'm lazy:
Literally 30 seconds of "pretty hot". And people are risking serious illness, even death, over some mythical beliefs about how nutrition works.
This is the whole “gluten is poison” (for people not actually intolerant to gluten) all over again. Those people also had no idea that it was just wheat protein.
Of course it was from Fresno, lol
Heyo, that’s where I live 😅
Relax, it isn't human to human transmissible.
Yet.
It hasn't been documented yet, sure, I'll give you that. You and I both have no idea if it has happened already and the patients didn't get tested or they didn't go to the hospital or doctor with the bird flu. They might not have even realized they had the flu.
Not with that attitude
The attitude doesn't seem to be a problem here.
Bunch of adluts getting pink eye flu from their kids says it already has been
isn't that the place with the freaky haunted pants?
lol, yup.
Please explain.
pants are haunted
So this is someone trolling I presume? Or we got a grade A SCP
What the fuck
https://cryptidz.fandom.com/wiki/Fresno_Nightcrawler
Is this why Mister Brain Worms wants to sell raw milk? So bird flu spreads since worms hate birds
Louis Pasteur is rolling in his grave, watching them raw milk drinkers.
You say that, but far as I know, Pasteur died and the raw milkies are still alive!!1!
Take that, past! We totally futured your ass!
For the other non scientists here is a good article explaining what "raw milk" is. https://www.uclahealth.org/news/article/dangers-raw-milk-arise-bacteria
TLDR: they boil milk to nuke bacteria, "raw milk" is what they call milk that hasn't had that happen and is dangerous, especially considering recent events.
You know it's great to question why we do the things the way we do them, but question them and answer them logically
The problem is when they ignore the answer to keep asking the question waiting to hear what they want to hear.
It’s so bizarre to see this discussion play out on the basis of “health”
Because there is a legitimate discussion to be had about the economics of how milk pasteurization requirements have affected local dairy farms. How the unsanitary conditions of industrial scale milk production have made it a necessity. How marketing and corporate interests have shifted consumption patterns.
And yet these fucking dipshits have turned this in to “pasteurized milk personally harms you!” In grifter circles.
How screwed are we that we can’t talk about the complexities of how corporate farming practices have effected our food supplies with out couching it in terms of “health food”.
I cannot express how much I hate the term “health food”. There is no such fucking thing as a “health food”.
It makes me want to rip my hair out when these topics come up.
This problem has always bugged me writ large as well. It seems nearly impossible to have any conversation that looks at the bigger picture of things in a complete and nuanced way.
Take for example employment rates. It’s just taken as a given that high employment is the goal. But stop and think about that for a second. In any other part of your life is your goal to completely saturate all time with labor? No, obviously not.
But the goals are set and we must achieve them. More money next quarter than last quarter, it doesn’t matter if every conceivable customer already has a subscription, we must grow. Make the product cheaper to make, charge more, do anything but consider that we might have picked stupid goals.
Agreed with everything you said. I had a class about bio processes and one of them was about production of cheese and during the class both our professor and the scientist that was walking us through the chemistry of cheese making were constantly talking how pasteurization was really good for us all and how annoying it was that it made cheese making more difficult because of the way it messed with casein and other proteins, making it so that the cheese wouldn't "coagulate" correctly (they used a specific term that I cannot remember for the life of me, sorry) but that was all. A protein being bent up a bit doesn't negatively affect the milk of where just drinking it or using it to bake, Ave even for cheese making there are tequiniques to still make it into cheese with pasteurized milk.
Hey, I live there and someone just posted on our local Facebook page asking where to get some raw milk. I'll send them a link.
Maybe ingest it and then use UV light or inject bleach. I hear Ivermectin helps against everything.
Ugh my wife's step-sisters husband is a pharmacist. His body is riddled with tumors but he swears the ivermectin and supplements are what's fighting the cancer. Not the chemo. Nope. That's promoting the cancer.
Self solving problems are the best problems.
Agreed. I'm not to fond of him (or my wife's step-sister, for that matter)...obviously I don't want him to die, or be in pain...but I feel real bad for his kids (my step-niblings). They're already at a tough age (middle school), their dad is dying, and they've all drunk the Kool aid. The whole side of the family has, save for maybe one or two of my half-BILs.
Last week, the mom (who runs an upscale clothing store) was saying she only wants to hire old white ladies and won't hire kids anymore. The daughter pipes up saying "yeah kids these days are lazy, they don't want to work", parroting the parents talking points. But literally 30 seconds later, the mom is saying that it's the slow season and she's spending most of her day watching Netflix. The self-awareness is just completely missing.
Food safety is communism!
Slow pastuerization kills the same amount of microbes as flash... without killing all the flavor of the milk.
But it takes longer, so it's not good for business
Killing your customers similarly tends to have detrimental effects on businesses.
Unless you provide pensions.
Surely this is satire. One of you guys made this as a joke, right? Right?!?
There is a way. Just mix it with equal parts hard liquor.
I heard bleach works good too.
So you get a liquid that'd roughly 20% alcohol and mostly milk?
Yeah that's not gonna do it.
Try this:
Even if you do 95% everclear (which we don't even have in the EU, we'd fucking kill ourselves with that shit), you'd still only get 47.5% alcohol with the rest being milk, which is not enough to sterilise it.
Like above 42% will kill a lot of stuff in it, but it's not enough to sterilise it.
OK, but pasteurization doesn't sterilize it either. And if you can't get everclear, you probably can't get raw milk. And, OP was making a joke...
Sure man, but I'm a pedant with a shit sense of humour and I like to point out myths that may or may not be actually relevant if it "came down to it." And unlike in the movies where you just spray some whisky on a wound, alcohol isn't a magical get-rid-of-all-chance-of-infection when it's in levels of like <50%.
A lot of people take humor as fact, either by not understanding it as satire or by thinking it's funny because it's true etc. So while a bit of a party pooper, I don't think some light correction is all that harmful.
Very kind of you.
I recall they were telling us it needed to be pretty much exactly 70% to sanitise hands during COVID
Man, a shot of Vodka at 40% has me questioning my life choices, I cannot imagine taking a shot of this goddamn paint thinner holy shit
Yeah, that's why you mix it with raw milk.
It would suck the water out of your mouth :)
That sounds like a fun night
Fuck, dude, it's already in California? I was hoping it was at least somewhat contained to Canada but clearly I haven't been keeping up with the news on the issue.
It’s in our factory farming animals. It’s been that way for a while. The administration if just fucking around with it and not culling like they should.
And farmers are concealing their infected herds because they don’t want their animals culled. So just assume it is everywhere. We are probably on pandemic II feat. RFK Jr and Trump very soon and it is going to be a lot of fun.
Hmmm. Maybe theres still a little time, but rather unlikely.
Yeah, who knows. There is a possibility that they get a vaccine for farm animals soon and that ends the pandemic. But I’m not counting on it. I’ve stocked up on masks and the like, but I’ve never stopped with social distancing, masking and the like so a new flu pandemic isn’t going to change my life much.
It might disrupt my plans to travel, but I'm glad to hear people are busy preparing this time.
I just drank like 2 glasses of milk because it was strawberry flavored :(
Raw milk or pasteurized? The latter is most likely ok.
I sure hope they chug that stuff.
What is contained in Canada? Bird flu? There has only been one case and they are unsure where the teenager got it from.
ThE FlU Is JuSt A BaD CoLd! If BiRdS CaN TaKe It WhAtS yOuR PrObLeM sNoWfLaKeS?
at least CVD isn't contagious
Every new infection is a new dice roll for a human-human infection mutation
Low chance, but let's hope we don't get XCOM'd
Cardiovascular disease is never going to be contagious, except through socially transmitted values that say it is okay to commit atrocity against cattle.
Ah, sorry. Was still at the bird flu from op
Some people might have said the same about cancer too
Edit: Forget cancer.
Huh. Turns out heart failure can be contagious.
I feel like it's only a matter of time until I see a headline that says, 'White House votes A-trocities A-OK!'
*yet
Raw milk now getting "Bird Flued on Date"
And I'm and American in Colombia where they pasteurize the milk to the point where it is stored at room temperature.
UHT milk tastes disgusting though. Not sure if it's the additives here in the UK.
Pasteurization is a wonderful thing however.
They really should start selling it and marketing it as never frozen fresh. It'll be even more effective that way once its legal nationwide.
Stop drinking milk not intended for you, problem solved. Go Vegan !
I greatly enjoy eating vegans. Very lean and easy to catch.
nature doesn't have intent
What about milk intended for me? I mean, my mom may have trouble producing at her age, but...
Fellow lemming is so single they can't get milk from their partner. UwU
You can't milk a blow-up doll...
Not with that attitude
I think my girlfriend would be weirded out if I asked her to take domperidone...
Good news! As long as its given consentually then human milk is vegan!
Gross edit: some body builders buy it to bulk up!
the vegan society definition makes no mention of consent.
That could be! Despite that, a big part of minimizing harm is consent!
not necessarily
Correct!
I always am
you're saying that cows aren't supposed to exist
Fr. It tastes the same, barely taxing for the environment compared to cow milk (depending on the type of milk), plus you don't torture animals. Sounds like a win-win-win situation to me
Edit: Gimme your downvotes guys. I thrive on them 💅🏻
It absolutely does not taste the same. Which works for me because I don't like the taste of cow milk.
There are some brands that emulate the taste of cow milk for those who want that is what I meant. Obviously my view is skewed given that I've been vegan for like 4 years
The main thing for me is most people are lactose intolerant to some degree. It can be worth trying alternative milks just to see if you feel better with it.
They are weak, and can only be purified through the gas of adversity
Edit: flatulence
It occurred to me that the other phrasing could be problematic
Lol I liked both versions!
milking cows isn't torture, but I'm pretty sure humans have a bigger carbon footprint than cattle
Forceful impregnation, constant pregnancy, kicked and beaten calves and their mothers, separation of calves from the mother and their killing. Shall I go on?
artificial insemination isn't torture. cows aren't kept constantly pregnant. kicking and beating cows isn't part of husbandry. killing cows at the end of their useful life is fine.
Doing so to a creature who can't consent is pretty wack though.
Female mammals, including cows, produce milk as a result of pregnancy in order to feed their young. The dairy industry is for-profit, they're not going to let their dairy cows have downtime from producing milk if there's money to be made.
The meat and dairy industries have lobbied hard for ag-gag laws criminalizing photography on their farms after abuses have been discovered by undercover investigators and activists. It is undoubtedly a part of animal agriculture. Here's a whole paper about it, if it interests you.
It definitely isn't the worse part of the miserable lives we make them live after breeding them in massive numbers. It's probably a relief at that point.
Also, just a sidenote here, I scrolled a bit through your history and you seem to go on the defensive for meat and dairy whenever you come across anything relating to veganism or the negative impacts of those industries. You engage with vegan content much more than I do and I'm vegan! I don't think I can change your mind about veganism, nor do I really feel the desire to write any more than I already have. But, I don't know, maybe go comment on stuff you enjoy rather than getting riled up about this stuff? It might make for a more enjoyable experience on lemmy.
I don't tell you what to do. kindly return the courtesy.
further, I'm not riled up but your screed indicates you might be.
they don't have any volition in the matter. they produce milk. period. but they're not constantly pregnant.
According to google, they need to birth one calf a year after a 9 month pregnancy, so they are pregnant 3/4 of their adult life, that sounds close enough to constant. Also, did you need to make 5 different comments?
your characterization is irrelevant to the truth of what I've said.
Thanks for writing this up. I just knew they would get all defensive so I didn't even want to bother replying, but I'm very happy about other people chiming in. vegoon btw ❤️
it's a veterinary procedure
and that's bad
but it's still not necessary to kick cattle for milk
Your comment is great. Please keep speaking up for morals!
Appreciate you 🙏🏻❤️
So, I don't really understand the science, but my son is only able to drink raw milk. When he drinks normal milk, he has terrible stomach aches and mad diarrhea. When he drinks raw milk, it's all rainbows and butterflies. For reference, he's 3 and has been drinking the raw milk for around a year and a half. Also, the rest of the family had no issues drinking pasteurized milk. Maybe somebody smarter than me could explain why this is?
Have the rest of the family conduct a double-blind test. In other words, neither you nor the child now which is which.
This might be helpful, or it might be unrelated.
Recently, I made mozzarella from scratch. In order to do that, I needed some milk that wasn't homogenised. Homogenisation is the process of breaking up the fat globules within milk into smaller droplets so they're more evenly dispersed throughout the liquid, meaning there won't be a fatty layer that separates out when you leave the milk to stand.
Most milk that you buy at the supermarket would be both homogenised and pasteurised. I learned that pasteurised milk could work for cheese, depending on the specific temperature the milk was heated to during pasteurisation (because the required minimum temperature for pasteurization is below the temperature that causes issues for mozzarella, but some brands pasteurise at a higher temperature. Unfortunately most brands don't say what temperature they pasteurise at, but I got lucky with the first one I tried). That part's not especially relevant to you and is mostly cheese related
The thing I wanted to suggest, out of scientific curiosity more than helpfulness, is that I wonder how your son would do with pasteurised, non-homogenised milk — perhaps it's the homogenisation that's causing the problem, rather than the pasteurisation. If you do try this, I'd be interested to hear back how things go; I haven't heard of anyone having issues like this before
Oh, interesting. I'll have to look into where to find that.
FWIW, there's a lot we don't know - but are learning - about bacteria and the gut. For example, if I'm not mistaken, a baby gets a lot of important gut bacteria from it's mum through breastfeeding.
So when I hear all this argument about raw vs pasteurised milk, I expect there really is something of health benefit to raw milk, just there's a big downside of harmful pathogens that can be cured with pasteurization. That doesn't mean all raw milk is unsafe. Like with raw eggs in the UK, or not iodizing your vegetables, it can be safer with care over production.
Anyway, that is to say, I figure there could be some interaction with the bacteria in the raw milk helping your son to digest it.
But having seen the other comment suggesting homogenisation, that sounds more likely to me. (Just a guess though.)
There seems to be some disagreements among the healthcare community as well. With my son, we tried normal milk, goat's milk, and raw. The raw was the only one that didn't cause the gut issues. We mentioned this to his pediatrician, and he told us there was no difference. When we mentioned the variance to a different physician, he said there absolutely would be reason for him to react with the pasteurized but not the raw. I think he mentioned something about the breakdown of protiens when milk is pasteurized, but I can't remember for sure.
That's very interesting. Thank you for sharing.
I hope things work out well for your son.
You should give oat milk a try (or soy/almond, but oat tastes the best imo)
For some reason all the soy and oat milks I've tried taste terribly sour and bitter to me. At times I think "am I going crazy", when people around me describe them tasting sweet.
Though also some vegetables, like coriander and parsley taste soapy and bitter to me, so maybe its some quirky genetics thing.
There's sweetened and unsweetened ones so that might be it but who knows.
I felt so much better once I stopped drinking cow milk. If you look into the science, you really don't need it in your diet at all. Dairy lobbyists managed to get the government to promote it as necessary for health, though.
Should totally stop feeding him raw milk, get those lactose-free milk instead.
Just use oat milk. It's creamy and delicious, and it lasts longer.
I actually think we may have tried lactaid as well, with a similar reaction. My wife would remember for sure.
Have you tried nut or grain milk? I like oat, soy, and rice, but cashew is pretty good, too.
You're going to be pretty sad when your kid dies due to your poorly informed decisions.
Might get some hate here for this, but I’ve tried this company’s cheese. It’s the best cheddar cheese I’ve ever tasted.
Why would you get hate for that? Just because a company that sells cheese also sells raw milk when they probably shouldn’t?
Nah, the owners of the company are batshit
Raw milk does usually make better cheese, sadly.
Fortune favors the bold. Hand me a glass at random.
I wish they would irradiate it instead of boiling. Irradiation is completely safe and preserves the nutritional benefits. But the raw milk people are generally opposed to that, and irradiation has a PR problem. Sadness.
Pasteurization doesn't boil the milk though.....
UHT does, 140C for 2-5 seconds. Shelf-stable without refrigeration for up to nine months unless you open it.
Frankly speaking the difference between milk from cows with good diet vs. from cows fed protein slop is greater than between the modes of processing.
Still have PTSD from my mother feeding me raw milk -- unlike in the US it's legal here, also heavily regulated so it wasn't a health risk microbiology-wise but boy am I sensitive to even slight off-tastes in milk because yes you're going to interrupt the cooling chain and no that fridge doesn't have 8C. Unless you're a cheesemaker or such and it's necessary for the process, stay away from raw.
And, no, it doesn't have health benefits. Maybe if your kid doesn't play outside in the mud and the milk is the only source of germs they're exposed to, then it may help them to not develop autoimmune disorders. Be sane, choose mud over milk.
Only time I've had raw milk was when I was a kid and visited farming friends, since they had a pitcher in the fridge from that days milking. They used it in cooking usually, but it wasn't that bad to drink.
The laws regarding cow and milk health is way different in Sweden that most other countries though, very strict routines around testing. We can eat raw eggs from the store.
Milk: https://www.livsmedelsverket.se/globalassets/foretag-regler-kontroll/branschriktlinjer/mjolkens-kvalitet---kontroll-av-den-obehandlade-mjolkens-kvalitet.pdf
Eggs and birds:
https://jordbruksverket.se/djur/djurskydd-smittskydd-djurhalsa-och-folkhalsa/aktuellt-lage-for-smittsamma-djursjukdomar/salmonella
https://www.livsmedelsverket.se/livsmedel-och-innehall/bakterier-virus-parasiter-och-mogelsvampar1/bakterier/salmonella
You know that exact kind of thing is why you're known as arrogant swots all over Europe, don't you? Do you google whether Denmark has safe tap water before going on ølviking?
If I'm in Denmark to drink beer I take the custom where I am. If the tap water isn't good, I drink something else.
In my town we had a huge outbreak of cryptosporidium which poisoned all tap water in the city, so no matter regulations no place is guaranteed safe. That's why you test stuff. If anyone find unhealthy results you need to contain, treat and inform to minimize damage and exposure risk
The reason we are known as arrogant swots is probably not our husbandry rules but our foreign policies that can be naive or straight up delusional (such as thinking chat control is net positive).
I don't really know though since I have no possibility to leave my farm to travel, neither in time or monetary capabilities
Well yes that's another reason but trust me when I say that you're not the only European country with standards for milk and eggs. There's nothing to brag about. Also, do you even raw pork.
Yeah, we haven't had trichinella in our domestic pork animals for ages so we can indeed eat raw pork
The thread started about infected milk so I just gave an example of an area where the risk is minimal to emphasize that it's a legislation or control issue rather than an issue with the food item by itself. I didn't mean to attack you or imply that any other country is lesser, just that it's possible to combat if the political will exists
Interesting, I'm not well-versed in pasteurization techniques.
Sorry to hear about the raw milk PTSD. I've never had it, and don't plan on it.
Thanks for giving me something (UHT) to look into.
What nutritional benefits does it preserve exactly?
Does it taste different? Of raw milk tastes different than pasteurized milk than radiated milk might taste different too.
It taste differently and it usually hasnt gone through the separation of cream from the milk so it has high fat content and sometimes fat drops on the surface
I also imagine on the company side it's probably more expensive to do that rather than just making it hot enough.
And Trump isn't even President yet. But I'm sure this is his fault, or Kennedy's.
It's not that they caused it, it's that they're putting this forward as a healthier and better alternative to pasteurized milk, which leads to the connection with the news.
Well Fresno, CA is Republican, so you're probably right, some kind of evil R plot to kill people.
It's not about "blaming" anything on anybody. Raw milk is one of the things RFK specifically promises to promote.
It looks like it's State laws that govern whether raw milk sales is legal or not. In Colorado, Arkansas, Alabama, DC, Delaware, and many others it's completely illegal.
What does the federal government have to do with it? It's already illegal to transport it across state lines according to federal law.
https://www.britannica.com/procon/milk-debate
I grew up on a dairy farm and we drank raw milk every day. I can remember my sisters bringing the milk pitcher to the barn and dipping into the bulk tank of raw milk every morning or so. No one got sick and no one died. We even made butter at home from it after separating the cream. But pasteurization is a good thing for all you urbane urbanites out there. It increases the shelf life and safety for consumption. Plus it reduces number of small dairies near population centers that used to exist. Dairies can be 100+ miles away now. After all, you wouldn't want to be exposed to the smell of cow shit right?
Raw milk does taste very different from store bought pasteurized milk, (whole milk ain't whole). And like shelf stable milk, I doubt anyone of you would like drinking it.
Those are also cows you personally owned and cared for. You knew their health, you knew their living conditions, and the milk wasn't produced soley (or maybe at all) for big corporate profits where production is the goal, and the animals well-being isn't.
I'm sure other people would be more supportive if the sources could be trusted, but that's difficult when you've seen how livestock is treated.
You do understand that ALL dairy farms that sell milk are regularly tested for safety of the milk they sell. This is federally mandated. You miss the thresholds for bacteria counts, you will be dumping all your milk produced until it tests clean again. So those cows can't be held in very dirty and vile conditions because your milk won't pass those mandated tests. Slackers go broke and are out of business in short order.
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for selling pasteurized milk in stores. The milk you buy in the store can be a week old before you see it on the shelf. But the unreasoning fear of raw milk is just plain ridiculous.
Boars Head had federally mandated inspections as well.
Those inspections are carried out by federal inspectors. The incoming administration wants to severely cut funding for pretty much “the government” (except the military). That means fewer inspectorsand less thorough inspections. That’s how things like the Boar’s Head thing, and listeria outbreaks in spinach happen. They’re happening more and more because of industrial farming processes coupled with more relaxed federal inspections.
They're held in dirty and vile conditions, but they're also pumped full of antibiotics.
You have owned a dairy herd?
After surviving one pandemic, it's totally fair that some of us are a bit wary of raw milk now because multiple places have found bird flu in it. Judging us in the way you are isn't okay.
There was panic about raw milk looonnnggg before Covid. And I if you had read what I wrote, I did say pasteurization IS a good thing and I'm all for it. But it's just not the evil most think it is.
But judging bluewing... totally ok?
More importantly: how are they judging again?
How was I judging? I was defending those of us who are concerned about the whole raw milk having bird flu thing. I was simply saying that those of us with concerns are valid in our feelings.
If you read all of bluewing's comments, the tone comes off, imo, as talking down to those of us who are concerned. Bluewing grew up on a dairy drinking raw milk every day and didn't get sick and seems to be exuding a sense of superiority because of it.. I also grew up on raw milk and didn't get sick from it. Doesn't make me less concerned over bird flu lol
And yet they specifically acknowledged the importance of pasteurization, etc, while simply saying in the right setting raw milk is tasty. That's not judging that's simply providing their perspective.
You are being overly sensitive and... IMO & LOL, "exuding a sense of superiority". Don't take it too seriously but I always find that basic hypocrisy - and I acknowledge we all do it - just so hilarious.
When I was a kid, we went to our neighbor who was a small milk farmer and got raw milk basically every day. Never got sick or anything.
Can confirm that raw milk does taste different, and to be honest sometimes I miss the taste when I drink pasteurized milk now
While I certainly don't miss milking cows, I too miss the insanely rich texture and flavor of that fresh from the cow milk.
Warm, fresh from the cow, before the cream rose.
PASTEURIZATION IS A GOOD THING
LOL... the downvoting. I think as usual people read the first sentence and that's it. So you saying "pasteurization is a good thing" got lost.
PASTEURIZATION IS A GOOD THING
But totally agree - raw milk, in the right situation and handled appropriately, which means COWS YOU KNOW is just so much better. To the point where after our one neighbor we'd get it from moved away I just stopped drinking milk at all.
PASTEURIZATION IS A GOOD THING
Tbf, raw milk is delicious.
Lol there's no difference
One does come with a bunch of potentially dangerous microbes
The microbes add a distinctly tangy flavor!
Of course there's a difference. That's like saying there's no difference between a rare steak and a well done steak. Yes, they're both steak, and to some extent they taste the same, but they are very different.
So is chicken sashimi.
Only in Japan tho
And pork sashimi.
Compared to UHT milk or refrigeration required milk?
brain parasites: yes... YEEEESS..
Uh oh you violated the cardinal rule of Lemmy and posted an opinion at odds with the intent of the OP.
I agree raw milk is delicious. Too bad most people cannot experience that safely.
Moo moo! Moo!
Lol, that's actually not fair.