Michigan governor says not voting for Biden over Gaza war ‘supports second Trump term’
Gretchen Whitmer responds to calls by some Democrats to vote ‘uncommitted’ in Michigan’s primary on Tuesday
Gretchen Whitmer, the Michigan governor, pushed back on calls to not vote for Joe Biden over his handling of the Israel-Gaza conflict, saying on Sunday that could help Trump get re-elected.
“It’s important not to lose sight of the fact that any vote that’s not cast for Joe Biden supports a second Trump term,” she said on Sunday during an interview on CNN’s State of the Union. “A second Trump term would be devastating. Not just on fundamental rights, not just on our democracy here at home, but also when it comes to foreign policy. This was a man who promoted a Muslim ban.”
Whitmer, who is a co-chair of Biden’s 2024 campaign, also said she wasn’t sure what to expect when it came to the protest vote.
Rashida Tlaib, a Democrat who is the only Palestinian-American serving in Congress, urged Democrats last week to vote “uncommitted” in Michigan’s 27 February primary.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/feb/25/michigan-gretchen-whitmer-biden-israel-gaza-warOpen linkView original on lemmy.world
Alternate title: Michigan governor explains first past the post voting. People unhappy.
This is a primary. Voting for Biden won't make it less likely that Trump will be elected.
So they're not even the official candidates yet? Just how long is your election cycle?
4 years.
Primaries are rigged there's no real choice
That's not really true. Primaries weren't rigged in the Rupublican primaries in 2016. They voted Trump in despite what the RNC wanted. It was the Dem's primary that was rigged (and turned a bunch of people off of voting in the main election, and it seems those people still haven't learned anything).
How were the Dem primaries rigged. I still see lots of people claim this to this day. But no one has ever presented evidence. I voted for Sanders in 2016 and 2020 primaries. But legitimately more people voted for Clinton in 2016. She also won more delegates. She won fair and square. Now do I think there needs to be a better process? Absolutely. But in the system democrats have used for the last 30 to 40 years Sanders lost fairly despite a strong showing.
The superdelegates, which in 2016 made up about 15% of the delegates, were not elected and are not beholden to any voters, they just chose whichever candidate they wanted, and 604 out of 651 went for Clinton immediately, which meant Bernie started off at an immediate disadvantage.
There's this idea that if it's technically possible to succeed, that the system is not rigged (see racism, sexism, etc). But that's ridiculous. If someone starts off at a major advantage over their competition, the system is rigged for them. If, in the general election, one candidate started off with 75 electoral votes because some unelected people just decided they liked that candidate, I imagine we would call that system rigged in favor of that candidate (even if it is technically possible for their opponent to win). Not only that, but starting off at such a deficit for what would already have been considered a close race is likely to make those who might have voted for Bernie just not bother showing up.
So yes, I'd say the primary was rigged against Bernie. And the Democrats seem to agree, because they got rid of superdelegates for the initial vote, because everyone was pissed.
The DNC used that system FOR DECADES. They didn't implement it in 2015 to snub Sanders. And as shitty as it was. It was better than what they had before. This, this is why no one rightfully takes you seriously. Or shows any respect. Hyperbolic, disingenuous BS.
Depends what you mean by "rigged".
The parties, the candidates, the PACs, and the media are all theoretically (and in many cases, legally bound to be) separate entities, acting independently. But in reality, a lot of them share the same interests, and so some things happen that aren't exactly collusion or breaking any rules, but do give an advantage to one candidate, which many voters consider unfair.
In the case of the 2016 DNC primary, I think the critical objection is not the existence of superdelegates, but how they were presented in the media.
Clinton hovered between 54%-59% of the pledged delegates, but the media coverage would consistently include superdelegates in the count, showing Clinton ahead by 600 or so delegates, giving her "70% of the total count, and making her the presumptive nominee! The Sanders campaign doesn't have any chance of coming back from this!" ...before most of the country had even voted.
This kind of thing happens all the time, with lots of stuff, and it's not technically "rigging".
But seeing an official-looking number on TV -- that you know, provably, doesn't reflect the reality of the ongoing election... That feels, to many people, like it's "rigged".
I mean rigged when I say rigged. But yes I agree with a lot of your other points. The system absolutely should be more democratic and clearer. And our media should absolutely be constantly rebuked for the shit show it is.
I have no love for the system or democrats. But I really think all this talk about it being "rigged" nearly a decade on. Realistically is keeping us from improving the situation or finding better solutions. Instead grinding some perceived axe. While people, we all would likely be United against are United themselves getting things that we hate done. Clinton and Wasserman Schultz definitely earned plenty of that ire though.
You're apparently forgetting the head of the DNC that got fired for giving debate questions to Clinton.
You're also apparently forgetting the DNC argument in court that because they are a private organization that they didn't have to abide by their own rules requiring fairness.
None of those are even touching the super delegate issues that others commented on.
So, The DNC gave Clinton the questions. And then they fired the head as a patsy? Or the head gave Clinton the questions and the DNC who didn't rig things fired her over it.
Everyone says they didnt want him, but an idiot demagogue is a useful fool.
Altrrnate theory: They didnt know who would beat Hillary, so they played as many candidates as possible until they figured it out.
That's some nice history rewriting but the RNC actually openly loathed Trump until he won the primary - that's when they became bootlickers.
Ah yeah, politicians never lie
Please explain to me, in detail, how the '16 Dem primaries were rigged. Bernie was literally on every single ballot, right alongside Hillary.
I responded in detail to the comment before yours (you and I posted within a minute of each other), but in a word, superdelegates.
Yea, neither Biden nor Trump have the official party endorsement yet. Presidential elections in the US usually last between two and five years depending on how you define them.
The news starts talking about the next election the day after the election so our election cycle is permanent at this point.
General election is in November. Get comfortable, it's gonna be a while.
Neoliberals never let a silly thing like facts get in their way.
They're just republicans who don't want the cool kids to hate them.
The fucked up part is theyre the only other option this election, and they know it.
It's not good enough for them that Biden is better than trump, they want 100% support for all the fucked up shit Biden is doing as well.
Who are you even talking about?
Israel's Genocide that is only possible because of our unwavering political and military support, probably
And they yell at us for not putting up with their putrid shit. Whatever happened to "push Biden left"
You have? Like, it's been a clear influence in the policies of his administration. I'm my opinion, it would be pretty short sighted to turn that influence into disdain.
Israel's extermination of Gazans with our unwavering funding is not a "left" policy
And wouldn't you know it, there's a lot more to an administration than their stance on Israel. Stop trying to boil everything down to truisms and catchphrases. If you really don't think that the left has had a sizeable impact on Biden's admin, we don't really have a lot to talk about here.
The left has had a sizeable impact on Biden's domestic policies. Including the Inflation Reduction Act, American Rescue Plan, and the Bipartisan infrastructure Law.
The Biden administration has been funding and arming the Israeli genocide of Gaza
Both are true. And genocide is the worst thing a country can do. I learned that in 6th grade when we learned about the importance of ensuring "Never Again" re: the Holocaust
Biden supports genocide. Centrists happy.
It's a fucking primary.
This is literally the only point in time we can try to drag Biden too the left, will we get him far enough that he stops being pro-genocide? Probably not, dude is all in on Israel and always has been.
But telling people they don't even get to vote "not committed" in a fucking meaningless primary is something so undemocratic if you told me it would happen this primary I'd have bet millions on it being republicans.
But then again, I'd have bet billions on them being the ones to pull delegates for something the state party had zero control over.
Not holding Dems to standards may have already fucked the country for good.
I don’t know why people don’t get this.
Since 2000 progressives have been told to vote for who you want in the primary and then hold your nose in the general.
Now we’re supposed to hold our nose in the primary, too?!
I don’t have enough clothespins for this bullshit.
NH went progressive over party favorite moderate the last two primaries they had that counted...
So this party the DNC said their votes count for nothing, then Biden withdrew and threw money at a write in campaign so the headlines would be "Biden wins even as a write in!"
And not:
"DNC just made NH primary meaningless for something only NH republican officials could change!"
They know this is just a primary.
They're just conservatives deep down and give zero fucks lying and destroying democracy if they win. And it's not enough to win, they demand 100% loyalty.
Just like trumpers.
It's why Dem standards can't just be "better than a Republican".
it's why the democratic party is going to fracture.
Hopely only slightly after the republican party. But both are trying to be the last one standing, so to speak.
The problem is Progressives aren’t offering up any other option. Who am I supposed to vote FOR this time around? “No one” isn’t much of a rallying cry.
Why should they? the DNC will never allow a progressive to be the party candidate. which is why we didn't have bernie in '16... like the VOTERS WANTED.
I would say 2020 was the real stinger... clyburn in south carolina playing king maker.
New Hampshire went for Sanders in 2020, and were punished by losing their primary representation in 2024. South Carolina proved pivotal to the Biden campaign, so they're rewarded by going first.
Yuuuup. There were plenty of better states to choose if they just wanted a less-white state. Georgia is diverse and actually in play, but instead we kick off with a state that's deep red with an ineffectual Democratic party because they voted the way the winners liked.
If the voters wanted Bernie in '16, they could have gotten off of their collective asses and voted for him. He was on every single state ballot. The fact is, more voters voted for Hillary.
Because in 2020 the progressive candidate was the front runner. 4 years later they have no one else to offer up? No wants to vote for Biden. This is the progressive caucus’s moment, and they’re failing to respond to what the voters want.
The progressive caucus fell apart the last couple years. Even Fetterman has started towing the line.
Then to be quite honest that’s something progressives need to focus on and work through if they want to be taken seriously going forward. Railing against Biden will only get them so far. At the end of the day, voters need something to be in favor of, to rally behind.
Agree completely, which is why I hope more progressives keep running for local offices
Progressivism is a marble on a hill. Either they roll to the right and join the liberals because they support and believe in an unjust hierarchical system as long as it's sufficiently pinkwashed or roll hard left because they see the issue is the system itself
The hill ima die on: sortition
If progressives had put someone up against an incumbent they would have been accused of wanting Trump to win.
Also, their candidate would be deemed unelectable and voting for them in the primary would be helping Trump to win.
Also, America is not a progressive country and even if they won the nomination they'd probably lose.
Why? Because America wants this shitshow. Why else would they keep choosing it? They don't want problems solved, they want arguments and hot takes and "slams" and "bashes."
There are great progressive candidates running. You just don’t see it because the DNC is hard at work behind the scenes canceling primaries, removing candidates from the ballot, instructing the corporate media to not report on it, and sending out people like Whitmer to manufacture consent for there being no actual primary debates or competition.
Biden’s ego demands a second term, there’s no voter choice involved here.
I cannot remember an election where the incumbent got primaried. And even if we tried we’d be accused of hurting the establishment candidate’s chances in the general.
The Dem olds in Congress were not happy to see AOC stomp on Crowley (10 term incumbent) back in '18 (I think).
You have to know that’s not comparable to a presidential election
And that's why they pulled out all the stops to block Cisneros and support anti-choice NRA stooge Cuellar.
Eric Cantor but that’s not exactly a 1:1 comparison.
"Behave, or else you get the Orange Turd." seems to be the message.
There's nothing in this article that indicates she's talking about the primary vs the general election
True. Which is just bad reporting
Who is on the ballot that drives him left exactly? What's the name?
Is someone telling you you don't "get" to vote how you want? Telling someone you disagree with their choice or that they're dumb for voting a certain way is not at all stopping that person from voting how they want and not at all undemocratic
I'm not trying to defend the "pro genocide" thing at all, although I'm expecting to be down voted regardless, but...
Isn't support for Israel over Gaza an American / western thing rather than specifically Biden?
Like is it reasonably possible to have a POTUS that wouldn't support Israel?
I guess they could be more overt in their condemnation of Israel's behaviour, but I'm not sure how meaningful that is.
Biden has spent 50 years calling himself a Zionist and saying nothing will ever make him stop supporting Israel.
It's hard to think anyone believes that's normal...
Bernie and every other progressive.
I think part of the problem is that people are so on edge with how close we are to democracy ending. And how fine, and even eager many are to move on to full fascism. It is a primary though. And what really matters is a commitment to defeat fascism in November.
However you don't do yourself any favors acting like a teenage edge lord. Saying hyperbolic bs like pro-genocide etc etc etc. Biden's actions on the front are absolutely questionable. Poor strategy wise considering Bibi isn't going to listen to anyone. And just going to do whatever he wants. So all Biden is likely going to get out of it is a tarnished image. Even if we cut Israel off completely, something Biden can't do himself. It wouldn't stop Bibi the butcher. But then it's always easier to call hyperbolic names than it is to come up with actual working solutions.
No u.
You've completely lost the thread.
Trump, the one who moved the US embassy would, if anything, support Israel even more aggressively than Biden.
It's so infuriating how difficult it is for people to understand this
There are also a large amount of people who understand this and are intentionally acting as if they don't. This is just this round's version of the 'walk away' people from previous elections.
Walk away is such a shitty psyop. I feel bad for anyone stupid enough to fall for the obvious bullshit.
Some people love genocide so much they cannot imagine anyone opposing it without ulterior motives.
Some people love to argue in bad faith.
Is there a good faith argument that can be made in favor of supporting genocide?
No one is supporting genocide. Hence why Oderus implied you were arguing in bad faith. Quit now before you make an ass of yourself.
"Opposition to genocide isn't real", is pretty close to supporting it.
A young man just lit himself on fire to protest our complicity in the genocide, this isn't a made up issue. The people up in arms in my social feeds aren't faceless Russians, they the people who would work past campaigns and donate to Democrats.
Biden circumvented congress to sell weapons to Netanyahu for genocide. That's support for genocide.
You can't justify support for genocide, and I doubt you want Biden to stop doing so. So let's see which Standard Centrist Dismissal you select instead.
Just like @[email protected] said, no one is arguing for genocide so you're not arguing in good faith. Imagine being so blind and you think Trump and Biden are the same. Unreal how reductive some people are.
If it were possible, you would be ashamed of your comment but here you are.
I didn't say that either. Biden should stop supporting genocide.
Democrats should not be supporting genocide. Regardless of how much worse the alternative is.
The alternative appears to be that same genocide plus an authoritarian state run by a corrupt egoistist BTW. Voting for a party is and never has been a vote to support literally every policy they stand on.
Most would agree, but putting a worse person in power through apathy or inaction isn't the solution.
I'm not advocating for voting for Trump or not voting.
Democrats should not be supporting genocide.
WOW THANKS FOR THE TIP
I'll stop saying it if they ever stop doing it.
Shame Dems won't take it
And what does that look like to you this election cycle?
Stop the bullshit double speak, half truth skirting around the conversation and say, flat out and in plain English, how do you propose we handle this situation as a voter? Give us an actual solution.
We should continue the protests until Biden stops supporting genocide.
We should vote for Biden and not Trump. Democrats should not support genocide. The two aren't contradictory.
"Democrats should not support genocide" is a simple, direct statement.
Your point is received. It's a shitty point, but please, you keep trying to elaborate but you just keep repeating the same useless point.
There isn't one, unless we can somehow replace key centre-right policymakers inside the Democrat party and drag the party to a more firmly progressive platform
Yep, so vote Bernie in the primaries, then when he loses the primary and the election is Biden vs Trump vote Biden.
It sucks that our election system has been warped into a two party shitshow, but here we are.
Our ecosystem will not survive a Trump term. That means our food supply will not survive a Trump term. We do not want a neverending dust bowl.
Additionally of you really think Trump will do anything for peace you haven't been listening to his words or looked at his actions.
You think Trump, the guy who makes transparent threats of violence every other sentence, would stop Israel from levelling Gaza?
He's good friends with and likely has donations from Netanyahu. And all Trump and the GOP have to do (as usual) is sit back and watch the left fight and destroy itself while the gop sit back and win.
Democrats are so damn stupid. Not a single one of your candidates and potential presidents is against Israel, none, so why make it an issue for this election?
Primaries are the place for protest votes. You want to send a message, send it now in the primary.
Come general election, it's time to shut up and protect the country.
Not just a second Trump term, but a second Trump term and continuation/acceleration of the genocide in Gaza. Not voting and letting Trump win with a razor thin margin in a swing state will not fix the problem. Between the two realistic choices, Biden is infinitely more likely to push Israel for a ceasefire, which is the best chance anybody has to get the situation under control.
I don't like our current system but I don't believe she is wrong. We have a two party system. Either the GOP or the DNC candidate will take the electoral college.
I hate that we are still voting against something. The Democrats need to run a candidate that we WANT to vote for (like Obama was imo) but we aren't there in this election so we can either protest and vote 3rd party, vote for Trump, or vote for Biden.
Not only that, but it effectively does nothing as Trump will support Israel as well.
It's a primary...
What they're hoping it will do is show the party and Biden that his actions don't follow the value of Dem voters.
The goal is for him to shape up so he doesn't depress turnout and let's trump wins like when he ran against Hillary.
Ignoring the problem and letting the media keep calling Biden "most progressive president yet" will disenfranchise Dems and hurt turnout.
Dem voters aren't Republican voters. Fear isn't enough to motivate them, it works on conservatives because they're statistically likely to have a larger amygdala. Liberals (actual liberals) are more likely to have increased frontal lobe activity that handles empathy and critical thinking.
The main problem is neoliberals are essentially conservatives. They may vote D, but they think like Rs. And without that critical thinking and empathy, they assume everyone else is like them. Like Republicans do.
The result is actual liberals look at both parties, and realize it's not a good thing the same type of people are now running the only two options. Especially when the donations are coming from the same place.
AIPAC for example. They're funding Biden and Republicans who say Trump won, while attacking Dem incumbents who are against genocide.
Because all AIPAC cares about us Israel. They dont give two shits about Biden or America.
And as we've seen with his decision to move the embassy to Jerusalem, his position is even more extreme. Everyone who has paid any attention to his position on such matter should be able to figure out what his response to the current conflict would be. He for sure wouldn't even try to reign Netanyahu in but actively encourage further brutalities. That's exactly the "strong man" bullshit Trump adores.
So even if you really dislike Biden's handling of this whole shit show, you better believe that Trump would be even worse. And that's just the foreign politics part of the Middle East, we all know what harm Trump wants to cause to the US itself.
Moving embassy to Jerusalem was bad because it basically spit in the face of Palestinians - but we are literally supplying bombs that are killing Palestinians right now.
One's a spit in the face. The other is a 2,000lb warhead in the face.
Would Trump have done the same? Probably. But we know for a fact Biden did what he did.
Trump absolutely would support Israel AT LEAST as much as Biden does right now. I mean come on, Israel is killing lots of Muslims, that's something Trump can always get behind.
I used the example of the embassy since it's something previous administrations wouldn't have done as they knew it would only unnecessary put oil into the fire. And Biden damn sure knows this as well. Trump, either didn't care or didn't listen.
if i were a muslim i would not vote for biden. i wouldn't vote for trump either.. but definitely not biden
again. we know with 100% certainty biden supports the genocide. even if trump is 95%, that's still better odds
Then you simply didn't pay attention to Trumps attitude to Muslims in general and advocating war crimes without any impunity. Trump absolutely would be worse than Biden in this situation. He for example for sure wouldn't have made Netanyahu drop the complete blockade of food and water. He would have cheered this cruelty on.
i don't know what trump would have done. neither do you. the guy's a bit of a wild card. for example look at russia he's totally down to just drop the ukraine war. meanwhile biden supports prolonging it however long is necessary
i'm not defending trump i'm just saying if i were a muslim and especially if i were a Palestinian i would never vote for biden. it's unforgivable. i support the muslims in michigan. if the democrats want votes, they need to push policies that the people actually want
they can't just expect people to keep voting for them because of the eternal right-wing boogeyman. because it's getting so bad people are actually starting to wonder if maybe the far-right proto fascist is better and that's a piss poor state of affairs for a democracy to be in
What are you talking about? Trump obviously wouldn't support Ukraine. It's really no secret that he's in Russia's pocket. His attitude towards Muslims also is something he's very open about. Not to mention his love for strong-men wanna be dictators like Netanyahu is well known. To think that he would be better for Palestinians is ridiculous. So no, I'm absolutely certain that Trump would have handled this situation much worse and will handle it worse if he gets into office while it's still raging.
Then these people are fucking stupid and don't realise how much they have to loose living under fascism. Especially if their Muslims living in the US! The Israel Palestinian conflict is one thing, to loose democracy at home is something much worse.
It effectively proves to Democrats that if they support Genocide like Republicans they will never win.
If Democrats want to bend over backwards to appeal to a small minority of AIPAC voters, they will lose all their other voters.
Oh, it has nothing to do with AIPAC VOTERS. It's ALL about AIPAC DONORS.
Big difference...
It's both. Dems want to appeal to voters that are brainwashed by AIPAC.
There is also a Zionist minority in America that will only vote for a Zionist president and Dems are so afraid to lose them that they will throw away every single moral value they have to appeal to them.
But if the Dems aren't shown that they will lose more voters by kneeling for AIPAC than they will gain, the Dems will not be incentivized to clean up their act. In fact Dems will only become more extreme in their Zionism because they know that people will keep voting for AIPAC anyways.
Biden still has a shot to win voters back by actually managing to get recognition for a Palestinian state implemented. But he's just dancing around that subject as long as possible and it doesn't look like he's serious in any way.
There are more AIPAC dollars than there are AIPAC voters, but then I guess that's always the inherent problem with our political system:
https://www.opensecrets.org/industries/summary?cycle=All&ind=Q05&recipdetail=S
https://www.opensecrets.org/news/2023/12/pro-israel-pacs-poised-to-spend-big-to-unseat-progressive-members-of-congress-in-2024-election-cycle
https://thepoliticswatcher.com/pages/articles/congress/2023/12/7/aipac-donations-congress-members-unveiling-influence
The top three israeli money recipients being Democrats, and the top being Biden, is not a great argument to vote Democrat though.
If Biden tanks Israel where do you think that money is going to go?
Biden is the most willing to sell out to israel. Which is why Biden is getting that money. I must say that the Dems are very cheap too, they sell their souls for a few million dollars.
"If I don't do it somebody else will" is the default excuse for any crime. This excuse only works if enough people keep believing in it.
“Let’s (literally) destroy democracy so we might be able to save the Democratic Party”.
Did you miss all the great speeches at CPAC?
Do you not understand what "primary" means?
A meaningless formality since 2012.
"Let's literally commit Genocide so Biden doesn't have to run another 4 years".
Trumps rise to power is a direct consequence of the DNC sabotaging every attempt of real progressives like Bernie that could have actually fixed issues.
It creates both voter apathy and it enables right-wingers to point to the deteriorated standards of living under Biden and blame Biden for it (and biden pulls out another 15 Billion for israel) (cue someone linking me how people working 3 jobs is good for unemployment)
If Biden wins now the unrest and support for right-wing authoritarianism will only grow.
2016
If bad Dems keep winning the right will only grow stronger.
If Biden wins this time #Hitler2028 is a plausible reality as Biden is doing nothing to address any real problems and only gradually making things worse. Further bolstering Republicans.
The only way I see Biden winning this election is a) Trump has a stroke B) they throw Trump in jail
The polls are clear, people are growing increasingly tired of Biden. Trump was one of the most unpopular presidents in history - and Biden is even more unpopular.
We're fucked either way, like you said. Biden wins and the unrest is delayed and will blow up even stronger later on. Put Trump in jail and that unrest will be amplified tenfold. Look what happened when Hitler got out of jail (or Lula in Brazil for a more recent example) If Bifen loses, we of course have our proto-fascist.
Honestly I admire Trump for both his ability to absolutely dominate the GOP, even when the big donors are directly against him and his perseverance and dedication to do literally anything in his power to win.
I don't know how he still has such a fire inside him at his age.
He only beat Haley 60-40 in SC. Media talks about his big primary wins, but they're not really showing a politician that has really consolidated his party, especially as a virtual incumbent. He's probably the only Republican Biden could beat, and Biden is conversely the only Democrat Trump could beat. Yet on we march to a repeat general election between two candidates most people don't like.
to be fair, that's probably one of the worst performing states for him because it's Haley's home state
Look at what happened at the primary in Nevada. He was removed from the ballot so he told his supporters to not go out and vote. What happened? Over 60% voted "none of these candidates"
Nikki Haley lost to "none of these candidates"
if you look at the polls for the republican primary: https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-primary-r/2024/national/
trump is >75%
that's domination, especially considering a) desantis got more funding AND was polling better at the start of the campaign season and b) nikki haley picked up that funding after desantis dropped out
the establishment republicans are desperate to get rid of trump but he's like a tick that won't go away
He wasn't removed from the ballot, he chose to remove himself because the party rules said candidates had to do that to compete in the caucus that would actually choose electors. "None of the above" were just Trump votes, which falls in line with a candidate who should be doing better for his name recognition and history.
He can be solidly above 50%, assuring a primary win, and still not be demonstrating that he's consolidated his party. He won his 2020 primaries with 94% of the vote.
You have to put pressure on Biden because it could make a difference. There would be no convincing Trump. Israel has utterly failed this challenge. Netanyahu has proven himself beyond any reasonable doubt to be a criminal.
and biden is best friends with netanyahu. if we cant convince biden before an election, then we will not be able to convince him after one. we need to ask him to resign and realistically threaten that they WILL lost this election. nothing else will light a fire under their ass like that. nothing.
no its not and you know it. american election cycles are really good anxiety producers. we have two options, one will make everything worse, one will make it so the bad guys cant win. but the democrats don't want change. they want to appease their donors, one of the biggest being AIPAC. don't act like democrats are gonna save the day. I'd say they just drop the ball but its not as if they really wanted to get in the hoop. They throw the game and then blame us for not voting hard enough and being too apathetic
That’s the joy of continuing with democracy in the US. Biden and ‘the Left’ won’t attempt to curtail your speech or throw you in jail. The other guys… not so much.
biden is a zionist. he is definitely not part of the 'the Left'. at no point in his career has he been a leftist. he is a centrist zionist.
And this is the only correct solution.
You see so many people in this thread essentially equating Trump and Biden because of Gaza, and they keep skirting around “you shouldn’t vote Biden because both sides are the same tee-hee.”
LOL
Real talk now. You will stop speaking about the so called so called "Genocide in Gaza" as soon as you're distracted by memes making you upset about something else.
Yahya Sinwar will be dead soon enough, and there will be a ceasefire in exchange for the remaining hostages. In a few months there won't be any more civilian casualties in your social media feeds and the memes will tell you that Dark Brandon made Israel accept the ceasefire. You will love the Dark Brandon because of the memes. A few weeks after that the memes and Tik Toks will be making you upset over Trump and you will have forgotten all about the Palestinians. Just like how you never cared about the Ethiopian civil war or any other conflict in the world unless the memes tell you you're supposed to.
And Israels plan is to remove Palestines border with Egypt, so that it will now be completely encircled by Israel.
This is new to me. Do you have any sources?
You think Israel are trying to kill as many palestinians as possible? They're not doing a great job in that case.
Unhelpful to compare a 5 month conflict in a tiny country to a globe spanning war that lasted years though right? And whats the point in comparing the percentage of the global population that died in one war vs the percentage of people that died in gaza, does that tell us anything useful?
A more helpful comparison might be the battle of leningrad: 1 500 000 soviet civillians died in 872 days, which works out at 1720 per day. Add on another 3.5 million military deaths and you're looking at 5733 every single day.
They're doing a great job.
The most effective way to depopulate an area is what the Nazis finally ended up doing, and has been done by every genocidal group since.
You starve the population.
It takes a month or two for food stores to run out, then it takes about a month for the starvation to start killing people. During those first two months the numbers don't go up a large amount. Afterwards they go up FAST.
It also kills off the children first, so even if not fully successful, you've made the population older, and weaker, and less able to resist or fight back the next time.
This is what Israel is doing.
A 3 month old Palestinian boy died yesterday from starvation. He wasn't even alive in Oct.
I hope you never have to eat grass to try to stave off the insanity inducing hunger you seem okay with Israel inducing.
Ah yes just naturally jump into assuming I'm ok with forced starvation. Touch grass.
You certainly seem like you're trying to whitewash the forced starvation because the numbers didn't increase that much during the initial 2 month period it takes for starvation to start once the Israelis started the starvation campaign.
Objectively correct take.
You can validly hate Biden for the handling of Gaza. But not voting for him is just helping the Fascists win.
Swallow your pride. Do your duty at the ballot and then make the real changes by organising and protests.
No. It's not on the voters to show up no matter what. It's on the politicians to be someone we want to vote for. We already did "vote blue no matter who and pressure them for change later." And now we're funding a genocide. That's over. Now it's pressure time.
Absolutely correct. "Vote blue no matter who" got us here. The idea failed.
More objectively correct take:
Thanks to the political-parties highjacking governing-the-country,
they can commit any crime or abomination, whatsoever, and you only can choose between them, because the rigged-system won't permit anyone to have any alternative to what the incumbent political-parties offer.
There: fixed it for you.
You know 3rd parties run all the time right? We even have multiple senators right now that are independents
Okay, so then, do your duty, vote for biden, then work to support ranked choice voting?
Why do you think the neoliberals running the DNC will let ranked choice happen?
FPTP is the only reason neoliberals and Republicans can get elected, while they control both parties, we'll never get rid of it.
To get ranked choice, progressives first have to replace neoliberals, and then win so many elections it doesn't matter what Republicans want.
RCC isn't the cure, it's what we do after we win. Because it's not going to happen until after we win.
For anyone confused or refuting this in their mind, look up the DNC's history on ranked choice and the efforts they've used to stop it. The only effective legislation passed in a few states was done by citizens with outside state help.
Any reason it can't be done by referendums brought forward by the voters. Just need so rich Hollywood types to put up money and support.
It's complicated and I could go into details about every nuanced situation for a few hours. A few highlights,
Alaska for some reason is my favorite example
So its slightly possible, with millions of dollars from outside state support, years to campaign, and catching the main political parties unaware of your movements.
Zionism can be equated to fascism. Biden has stated multiple times that he is a Zionist. Neo-liberal fascists are already in power and they are destroying the left. you are saying do your duty at the ballot by saying vote this way or you are wasting a vote (that doesn't actually count anyway because the pop vote doesn't decide the presidency). I will do my duty by not partaking in sham elections for a two party state that I don't have any faith in whatsoever to deliver anything they promise. Because they have no obligation to fulfill anything they say they will do to get into office. That in itself is protest so I am doing the real changes, as you say.
They aren't destroying the left, there just has never been a meaningful left in America.
Sure that's why FDR never won in an absolute landslide.
It's why none of the last successful Democrat presidency runs over the last 2+ decades have been based on progressive reform and no Democrat would run with a slogan like "Change we can believe in" with only one outlier being the most recent election based on a distinct aversion to fascism.
America has never created national parks, new deals for farmers, or held up a man who was against war during the Cold war.
Nah. Left just doesn't exist.
national parks that still rob native peoples of their land? is that progressive to you? new deals for farmers, on stolen land? don't act like america is anything to be proud of, even the leftest leaning presidents still upheld the empire.
Better than drilling on it. You can't go back and undo history. It's happened. It's a shit take to just show it was someone else's land. It always is. We are all living in someone else's house and something else's environment, so I'm and so forth.
Yes we can be better in the future and should aim for that but just screaming that it's all crap is really derivative of every history of everything.
Its a shit response to say that everybody has had land stolen. Especially when those peoples are still alive. So if we are to be better, then we need to acknowledge that there is still justice undone. And again these native peoples are still here, they aren't gone. Native Hawaiians are actively being poisoned due to the US military's ignorance and neglect of their own infrastructure. Democrats aren't talking about that are they? Hawaii was illegally annexed but I'm sure Democrats vacation there just as much as Republicans. They are still fighting for rights to their land and anyone in Congress or the White House would say they can go fuck themselves.
Yes I'm actually fully in agreement that native Hawaiians are being pushed into extinction but that's part of the now that needs to be fixed. Actions have to be taken for the current issues and there may and very usually is history to navigate within because it does matter but you can't just ask for history to change we need to figure out solutions for now.
And yeah rich people of all parties aren't going to be particularly interested and it's obvious our government doesn't work right. Your original point that national parks aren't progressive is bad because even though stolen they are protected wild lands for hundreds of years. The new deal was a huge help to failing farms that are literally needed to feed people. We are facing inequality of massive magnitudes and climate change that is going to cause farming issues of the future, and climate refugees and economic refugees. We have to work with that now, looking at what the future we see from our choices with enough remembrance of the past but not clinging to it.
Unless you just want to be angry.
Edit: also my point is that eventually no matter what someone else will take your land whether they are your progeny or your replacement. It's never your land or your stuff. It's just temporary.
As if this isn't happening across the globe. American politics is not the only domain infested with the neolibs
You'll just be forfeiting your vote. The same reasoning can be heard in any country come election time, but in truth you're only making a gesture and its effects are contained in your mind. If you don't vote, even though all you said is true, this election system is a sham, etc. you're still helping Trump in the short term and the harm he will do to women, foreigners, anybody who's not rich, and the american society at large. Gestures, symbols and statements are good, but not at this price. I live across the world but if I could vote in the american elections, I would, and I'm not even part of any of these endangered demographics. I suppose you aren't either ?
I am an intersection of multiple demographics you mentioned and if you were any of them, you would know that biden and the democratic party has not done anything meaningful for any of them. Roe could've been codified, but he didn't. biden could've expand the court and add new justices, but he didn't. biden could've already secured a cease fire, but he hasn't. biden spat on the rail workers asking for one week sick pay. said nope, fuck you. he also has done practically nothing about amazons union busting. biden didn't give a shit about east palestine. flint michigan still doesn't have clean water. he could be creating legislation to protect trans kids and adults, but doesn't care. so what exactly is your argument about the oppressed demographics having better lives under democrats?
And furthermore, it is not just a gesture. Or at least its as much of a gesture as voting. Its effects are demonstrably not just "contained in my mind" because it is having an obvious effect on you and judging by the 16 upvotes on the comment, perhaps I have inspired or emboldened people to be just as critical as I am being. But you will say we are stupid or foolish or whatever you need to say. I say the fool is the one that continues to perform the same behaviour with no results and then tries to convince people to not do anything different. Look how worried they are of losing their power that they have to tell people that if you don't vote for us, its back to the trump. what a lovely threat from the people that supposedly care about us more than trump. i know they don't, i know trump doesn't care. they don't answer to us and you know it.
Voting uncommitted is a fine thing to do during the primary. It shows the party that people are displeased with how the government is handling the Gaza situation.
Sitting out an election in Michigan is a bad idea. If you're in a safe state, go wild. Just not Michigan.
Yeah but the statement Biden supporting Israel supports second trump term is true as well and anyone with half a brain would see it as obvious. Who do you think is more vested in winning the election?
No, Trump will win if not enough people vote for his only opponent that stands a chance. If that's you not voting for Biden - for any reason - you're to blame.
“Elephant shit more than bears shit.” Is technically true. But you’re still talking about shit.
We have a right- and indeed an obligation- to call out our president’s bullshit. Just because one hypothetical is worse than another, doesn’t mean that Biden and most the rest of the DNC supoorting genocide is okay.
“Well it could be worse” is a cop out.
1- you don’t know who will win. You don’t even know if they’ll live long enough to win. This isn’t entirely an age thing- there’s enough assholes who absolutely would pull the trigger here. (And I’m not even sure assassinating Trump is immoral. That’s how fucked yo this all is.
Either presidency is still a hypothetical. Period.
2- TRUMP BEING WORSE DOES NOT JUSTIFY SUPPORTING GENOCIDE.
Seriously. When people protest biden’s (and most every other politician’s) support of genocide… it isn’t about the election. ITS ABOUT THE GENOCIDE.
Stop making excuses. You’re defending genocide. You’re complicit in genocide.
No, this is not hypothetical. Either Biden will win, or Trump will. You can protest and throw all the tantrums you like, that's what the primary is for.
Come November, if you don't vote for Biden, you're as guilty as the most ardent MAGA supporter in letting fascism take power.
Incorrect.
The purpose of a primary is meant to select the best candidate possible.
We can argue if a guy whose consistently thrown unconditional support to a genocidal regime is in fact that, but the primary is not to “throw tantrums”
And yes, I am pissed that my govenement is currently sending money and weapons to a genocidal regime. I am more than pissed. I expect better of my govnerment.
But being incensed at genocide… isn’t a tantrum.
Can… you do me a favor? Can you just agree that genocide is bad? Or is that too much?
Whatever you want to call it, you go act out in the primary all you like, vote for Barney the dinosaur for all I care. But when it comes to November, you put on your big kid pants, suck it up, and vote for Biden, otherwise you're as guilty as any other MAGA fanatic.
So….
We can’t agree that genocide is bad?
Once again: you are talking about a possible future- a very likely future. Protesting the genocide of Gaza’s isn’t about what might happen in the future. The protests are about what is happening now.
And what our current, active government is doing to support it. “First they came for the Gazans, and I did nothing because Biden was better than Trump” is not something I want to express later.
Our government is complicit in genocide. Period. It doesn’t matter if the current president is better than the alternative. It’s still complicit in genocide- and because it ostensibly represents me- I have an obligation to tell it to knock it off.
You, on the other hand, are using your right to free speech to enable and defend genocide.
Hey bud, how about you not scream at someone for something they didn't say? Making up strawmen and screaming at them isn't going to convince anyone youre worth listening to, let alone convince them to actually to listen to anything you have to say.
Then pick someone who says something like that to argue with. The person above is just screaming at someone because of something that no one in this thread said.
Hey bud.
How about you actually read what said, instead of repeating those “Biden Good” macros you think are persuasive.
The problem here is that you seem to think any criticism of Biden is unwarranted because he is not as bad as Trump hypothetically will be.
And yes. At this point in time, it is hypothetical. Nobody here can predict whether or not Trump will win. Or if Biden will win.
Which is all entirely beside the point that people are protesting our current government - not our possible future government’s support of something most of us find objectionable.
Saying “don’t protest genocide because Trump will be worse” is a lazy excuse; and fundamentally defending genocide.
Do you support genocide? Do you think what’s happening in Gaza is good?
Do you think Palestinians should be eradicated as a culture and a people?
Because that, right here, right now, is what you are supporting.
Why do you support female genital mutilation? Huh how come you're not responding? Is it because you love mutilating children's genitals that much? Why do you just love to torture children and maim them for life?
Oh hey look, it's not fun to argue with someone who argued against things you didn't say.
Reread the part where i said not to put words in people's mouths and try again asshole.
That’s amusing.
Yes I’m apposed to genital mutilation. It’s easy to say.
You’re the one trying to make this about some thing it’s not. People are protesting our current government’s policy towards Israel. That is to say, they’re protesting our current government’s support of genocide.
This has nothing at all to do with the upcoming election; and telling people to shut up about it, or Trump might win (or implying it) is a good sign that maybe people find the current policy deeply unpopular.
And yes, what you are doing is in fact defending genocide. So which of us is an asshole here?
I mean she's right. If you register a protest vote against Biden you need to accept the moral liability of helping Trump. There really isn't any additional conversation here. You can write a million words about how you are making the perfect the enemy of the good, and none of it will change the very simple cause and effect of a protest vote.
Maybe vote uncommitted in primary for pressure since that has literally no effect on the main election?
As an outsider looking in, it feels really odd that this could even be a firm issue for any voter. Like that high horse sailed so long ago, how can you possibly blame the current president for what has been a national policy for 75 years?
Sure, push for a candidate that doesn't support Israel and dissent as much as you can. But every time I read a comment about "Genocide Joe" it screams Russian propaganda farm.
Now, if the Democrats had picked someone who actually supported popular Democratic positions, there wouldn't now be a massive chasm between him and their base on various burning issues they now have to bridge during what may, ironically, in fact be one of the more important elections of our lifetimes.
Democrats don't pick their candidates, the wealthy donors and senior members do. Which is why we always end up with a centrist and empty promises. Money in politics is a cancer.
Those are who the Democratic Party represents. They are the party. If you want to pay membership dues and show up to local meetings, that's fun and all, but the donors and senior members make all the important decisions above the local level, and local power brokers generally have party locals all sewn up, too.
Just ignoring that small donors exist and add up...
The DNC doesn't like them tho. Large entities giving huge amounts of money involves, dinners, fancy fundraisers, trips, and all types of situations the money spreads around where it shouldn't.
Small donors just want common sense politicians who are actually going to try and help Americans. Large donors want corporations to pay less taxes if were lucky. AIPAC wants billions a year and unquestioed support.
So large so ors and small donors want opposite things, and since large donors are more likely to personally enrich the people running the party, the people running the party decided that's who they go with.
Even if it means Dems are less likely to win elections.
Right, exactly. Sure, the Dems have a bunch of formal structure, and yes, you can participate in it, and if you persuade the decision makers inside the party (who are industry tools more often than not), then yes, you can have an influence. But if you want to challenge them on something genuinely democratic, like calling for a ceasefire in Gaza, which 76% of the Democratic base is in support of, then all of a sudden the elitist liberalism comes out and we all have to get in line behind our august statespeople, who know infinitely better than us measly citizens...
It's what Bernie has been saying for decades.
The first step is replacing neoliberals with progressives. We can't fix anything while they're in power, because they're the problem
Which is why the DNC fights harder against progressives than republicans. Losing to republicans just isn't a big deal to them, they know in 4-8 years they'll be in power again, and they'll be a shit ton of donations to Dems because of it.
If they lose to progressives...
That could be the end of the gravy train forever.
The more people understand that, the sooner it happens.
That's why the neoliberals demand absolutely loyalty to Biden.
The DNC has the state infrastructure and most federal and state-level campaigns tied so deeply into their infrastructure there's no real hope of replacing them.
Local politics are a tiny bit more open-ended, but again, the stakes are lower and local governments are explicity subordinate to states. Cities and counties can't do much if the state doesn't like it.
I have no idea how you fix this situation up, but as I see it, whatever the solution is has to look like making the DNC and its infrastructure obsolete. I don't see this happening inside the Democratic Party.
...
The DNC is not the state parties...
The state parties exist independent of the DNC, but due to how funding is supposed to trickle down, the state parties do kind of have to listen to them.
And while the state parties are in charge of their primary votes, the DNC can choose to ignore them.
Which is what happened when NH Dems refused to break NH state law so that Biden wouldn't have to lose the first primary after NH picked progressive over party favorite in 2016 and 2020.
It's confusing, but please try to learn more about our poltical system.
I'm noticing lots of Bidens supporters are incredibly opinionated, they just don't know what they're talking about about. When they do, they finally start understanding how fucked up we are and that if we dont act soon it's too late.
It's hard enough when one party is antidemocratic, if both are...
It costs more money to get ten million $1 donations than it does to get one $10,000,000 donation. You have to advertise, put up a website, collect donations, and possibly pay service fees for the charges. One giant novelty check from a billionaire means more of that money goes into their coffers.
It's the same reason websites have advertising rather than memberships: Ad dollars are cheaper to get.
It costs more money to get the $10M donation, but it's paid for by taxpayers rather than the candidate.
Lol
You think thos 20k a plate fundraisers cost zero?
The difference is the in person schmoozing with all those donors. The people running the party want to be paid to attend shit like that and having wealthy people suck up to them
I think getting $19,000 out of $20,000 is better than getting $0.90 out of a $1 donation, yes. It's called cost-of-revenue.
But you're right about the schmoozing. The donors love that shit. But there's also massive armies of political operatives whose livelihood depends on getting paid a ton of money to repeat facts back at the candidates.
Advertisers, analysts, pundits, news orgs, and a ton of other people rely on elections being both as expensive and as frustrating as possible. That way they get a ton of money, and sell a ton of eyeballs.
Sure, if you're making up random numbers anything can be justified...
But talking to someone who does that isnt something a lot of people are going to want to do bud.
.
Which is why I've given up on actually being happy with my government: I'm a weirdo and most Americans actually like this shit.
.
And I'm not gonna live long enough to see that.
.
Cool take, see you after the flopped election when you're back here screaming that leftists single handedly tanked the election for Biden. 🤷
People really will argue there are no left leaning voters and also leftists are why Democrats can't win elections because the non existent voters don't vote.
Shocking that aiming at the apathetic middle fence sitters doesn't seem to work when clearly that the argument is that it does. In which case it doesn't matter that Biden isn't liked by leftists cause he will win in a landslide for getting all those centrists and centrist conservatives right?
I'm with you dude. I don't get how there can be this argument that Democrats don't need leftists and shouldn't try to even bother getting their votes but also are being ruined by greedy lefties not voting. It's a fucking paradox which means they need to actually give a shit and aim for the left.
.
I will eat this thread printed out on a sheet of paper after elections in November if Biden loses
And their democracy is at stake. Just shut up and vote D like a good peon and leave them to make their billions.
Support for Palestinians is not even close to being a majority opinion among Demcratic voters. Most Dems that are gen X and boomers tend to (broadly) support Israel, while support for Palestinians is strongest amongst zoomers and younger millennials.
No position has a majority because many voters don't care, but more Democrats and Independent disapprove of Israel's handling of the war than approve.
When a poll forces them to choose, most Democrats disapprove of Biden's handling of the war.
Do you understand that, in regards to a general election, this is a problem?
There's not any position that he could take that doesn't have huge potential drawbacks for his core voters, while Trump's supporters overwhelmingly support Israel's war against Palestinians.
He could simply not unilaterally and proactively send them more weapons. He could not veto UN resolutions. While I think we should be taking a moral stance on genocide, I'll take simply not being actively complicit.
...Which costs him independents and Republican-leaning voters, and hence the election.
Whether I like the system we have right now or not, politics is strategic. Right now, it's not good strategy. If he was just starting his 2nd term, then he could--and should--absolutely to just that. But right now he doesn't have sufficient political capital to cut off funding to Israel and win an election.
Independents also oppose Israel's actions. You didn't even need to open the links, I highlighted that for you. Holy fuck skittish liberals, stop fucking abandoning everything for imagined Republican crossovers.
Gonna cut her some slack since the last time trump was president his sycophants almost kidnapped and executed her.
Voting for Biden cause he's least worst fucking sucks. Dems need to do better, and Trump is what happens because they won't.
Trying to get a progressive agenda by only thinking about the Presidency is like trying to win a game with only hail Marys. We need to focus on smaller races in house and build up from there. It would be a stronger and longer lasting change. Even if you're in an area that doesn't have any competitive progressives running in the primary, you are allowed to volunteer to help progressive candidates in areas that do.
She's not wrong, but I'm not sure this strategy is going to work. Biden is at risk of losing Michigan because of his support of Israel, and I think people are going to be swayed by a, "better than the other guy," argument on that issue. You can argue that economically, even if Biden is not as progressive as you'd like, he will govern in a manner closer to your beliefs than Trump. Trump is even more hostile to the Palestinians than Biden, but if Biden is supplying Israel with unconditional military aid while defunding UNRWA, it will be hard to claim that he's different in any practical way. If the democrats are worried about Michigan, they should be trying to push Biden to do something meaningful, like restoring humanitarian aid to Gaza, not scolding their voters.
I heard a pro Palestine rally in Sacramento and the dude on the bull horn was like "Let's make sure Biden doesn't get re-elected because he supports Israel" and everyone walking by was like "Yeah right, sure and let Trump win?! You know Trump loves Israel too right?".
If shes so concerned about people turning on Biden, maybe she needs to head to the oval office and tell him to stop fucking funding and equiping a goddamn genocide.
Cause one thing you forget, Democrats are not cultists. We will not tie ourselves into knots trying to defend your bullshit. We will call out, and criticize you when its appropriate.
and supporting and equiping a fucking genocide is a pretty goddamn appropriate thing to be criticizing Biden on.
Its not on the voters to get over it.
Its on Biden to stop fucking doing it and to tell Israel to fuck off.
Is Israel apartheid and slaughtering the Palestinians really so important that you'd throw away the election for?
This whole gaza fiasco very well could put trump in the presidential seat again, even though he should be barred as it is stated in the 14th amendment. Yet it doesnt seem to bother biden or the dnc, this is such a clear example of why people think both parties are the same, because if liberals want to be the good guys then they shouldnt be condoning israels mass slaughtering of the people of gaza.
Yeah, from my viewpoint Tlaib and the "uncommitted" campaign are taking the actual steps to try to fix this liability. The voters that need to be convinced just aren't in a position where one more white politician with no credibility tells them they have to. Not voting is the strategically wrong choice, but voters just aren't that objective, and frankly most probably aren't even hearing any of these arguments.
They need to actually change the reality of our support for a genocidal war, not tell people that reality is irrelevant.
Yeah because as a voter we should put principles above everything else and base our decision on single issues... Isn't that similar to what the MAGA crowd is doing?
Sure, the principles are very different. But the outcome is the same: Hurt yourself by ignoring the complexity of a political system and voting against your best interest because you mainly listen to your emotions... I don't get it!
You haven't engaged with a single word from my comment, just repeated the same old "vote" spiel. Your mantra doesn't work. Voters are emotional and tune out people who don't offer anything more to respond to their personal anger than "but it could be worse". You simply aren't going to track down all the disaffected voters and berate them into voting how you think they should objectively vote.
Tlaib and the uncommitted campaign are trying to convince Biden this is a problem that needs addressing. Material change is what can reach the masses, not lectures to political junkies on how the genocide could be worse or how not-voting will get you genocide AND other bad things rather than just genocide.
Maybe I just expect better from people on the left. But you're right.. Why should they be different?
But still. If one cares about one topic so much that they would not vote for someone because of it. Then why would they not go the extra mile and think about what the consequences of their decision will be with regard to that topic? And I don't think that you have to be a political junkie to have such thoughts. It's no rocket science at all.
You're totally right that material change is needed. I just doubt that there's so much Biden can do until next year. Even if such decisions were made right now, it would take a while until the effects would be felt. And if changes are not enshrined in law, they'll be gone soon. But there's no perspective to achieve that as long as you don't control house, senate and presidency.
Nothing will change if the sane people dont hold on to their principles though. If you're only voting democrat cause of the big D then you're also just like the crazed maga people. Politicians should learn what their base cares about and do something, but they probably wont. That doesnt mean we should lower our standards solely because biden isnt trump. The country isnt going to self implode if he does win again, or maybe it will. That might not be such a bad thing.
I'm not voting Democrat because of the big D. I'm voting Democrat because I'm going to be tangibly hurt by a Trump administration, along with millions of other people. Must be great to think an implosion will be a fun ride or not such a bad thing for you.
I wasn't advocating for voting democrat solely because of Trump. I was advocating for carefully weighing the consequences of ones decision in elections.
I'm sorry but to me this is just borderline naive and it completely ignores all societal and political realities. The US has a 2 party system. It's shitty but right now that's exactly what it is.
That means: All the things that some voter wants can only be represented by either one, or the other election platform or ideology. But even if you had a system that allowed for 5 or 6 parties to coexist in parliament... What do you think: How many compromises would you have to make to allow yourself to vote for one of them? I'll guarantee you that you will always have to accept a lot of discrepancies between your ideals and the ideas a party wants to realize. Because that party must appeal to many voters if it wants to have a perspective to govern, i.e. implementing their ideas.
And that is why there is no such thing as "what their base wants". The base of any political party will be diverse in their interests. To claim that the democratic base has ending the genocide in Gaza as their top priority is just wrong. It might be a sizable chunk of young voters but of course they can tip the scales in a close race.
But there's another thing that I find naive here. And I see it in so many comments of the loud "anti genocide joe" faction: And that is the part "and do something" in your quote above. Why do some people think that the president of the US is so almighty that he could just snap his fingers and boom, the genocide is gone. He can't make these decisions alone. He's part of a system of checks and balances for very good reasons. And the political reality is that there exist many, many competing interests in politics, there are binding contracts, there are diplomatic ties, etc. etc. To conclude: It's practically impossible for Biden to stop the genocide right now. So if anyone insists that one should not vote for him because he hasn't used his divine powers for ending the genocide yet.... For me it's just dumb. It makes no fucking sense at all.
She couldn't be more wrong. Not voting for Biden will show him what he could lose in the General. Primaries are the more important than the general in this way.
Then run a fucking better candidate. Biden is actively ignoring the will of his constituents. He didn't win because he's likeable or desired, he won because Trump generates negative voter turnout. Imagine if the DNC actually ran someone people were enthusiastic about--they might actually get a fucking landslide.
Far left progressives arent his constituents. Those would be the people closest to the center.
If far left wants representation, they need a new party. But to do that would splinter the vote and cause Rs to win for a while.
Instead, choose sortition!
His constituents are all citizens of the United States and 67% of them disapprove of his handling of the conflict.
Not sure what you wwant out of this conversation. I think hes handled it poorly as well and genocide in Gaza needs to stop.
Hes still gonna pander to the right more than the left, and the MIC has had his hooks in him since Obama.
To stop this war, its gonna take more than 67% disapproval of the war, especially when 30% will autohate everything he does.
As much as it doesn't feel like it when inside certain echo chambers there's a lot of support for Israel in the United States. The situation is also very complex with plenty of obviously very bad potential outcomes if he listened to the extremists, I have no doubt 90% of those would then blame him for whatever the result of rash action would be.
You don't like it but it's the politically sensible thing to do, democrats always lose chunks of purist votes that's one of thy main reasons the right manages to stay relevant and there's no point chasing them because of it wasn't this it would be something - there's always something.
Polling is showing that Democrats and Independents are not in favor of this war (Republicans love it, but they don't matter to Biden winning). There isn't a silent majority that makes this a keen political maneuver, it's just out of step with the party.
https://pro.morningconsult.com/analysis/israel-hamas-polling-february-2024
Genocide is not complex.
If a government is intentionally withholding food, medicine and potable water from a population it considers undesirable, it is intentionally committing genocide.
There.
Simple.
A 3 month old Palestinian baby boy died of starvation yesterday.
He wasn't even born in Oct.
Of course you can use dramatic phrasing and emotive language to make your point feel weighty but it doesn't change the reality that it's a hugely complex situation.
Hamas are still fighting, it's a war. I don't know why you expect Isrealies to just let them keep killing them without trying to fight beck. Now you can start getting into who started it and Isreals right to exist but that's all the complex stuff you want to ignore.
If a government is withholding food and water from their population that's terrible, there's evidence of Hamas doing this and of them refusing to let the idf evacuate children from hospitals and transport them to world class medical facilities in Isreal (where many Muslim doctors and nurses work and get treatment)
There's also lots of easily available information about the routes into the Gaza strip that aid is being delivered and the amounts being delivered, you can read about all the special measures set up and the complexities of that if you're interested.
Now we could get into why Hamas are doing the things they're doing and why Isreal is but again it's all very complex - we'd have to get into fanatical Islam, Iran's internal politics, Isreal's politics and history...
Any Government that is intentionally blocking food, medicine, and potable water to a population it considers undesirable is a government intentionally committing genocide.
You're repeating easily provably false lies to justify a government starving a population to death. Lies that Israels own newspapers have disproven, for at least some of the statements. You're just another disgusting genocide cheerleader.
On the one hand, this is true, you gotta vote for the lesser of two evils.
But also, there are only two candidates.
So now it's this shitty situation where US voters just have to vote Biden no matter what, he can do anything and there will never be consequences electorally. And i really feel like there should be consequences for supporting a genocide.
So... a statement of fact?
When every side supports Israel, isn't it basically a non issue? I know you guys love to police the world, but maybe choose your politicians based on national, not global affairs
Think of it this way: Vote for Biden. Not because you support any war, because you support being able to harass the man for another four years. Don't let him leaving office leave you with regrets! Meanwhile, consider also voting specifically against tyranny.
Personally, I see a chance for change with Biden, or at least the foundations for positive change. All I see with Trump are giant steps backwards.
Voting for Biden because forcing him to be president is elder abuse, and he deserves it
This is the best take I've ever heard tbh
he a little confused but he got the spirit
Biden is definitely confused, but he doesn't have the spirit.
He keeps ranting about how he wishes republicans we're more like Nixon, Reagan, and HW Bush...
I know you don't have 50 years of Senate experience, but you understand they weren't great guys with integrity...
Right? You get that right?
Please tell me people under 70 don't think those three were fine now.
I know the Overton window keeps getting dragged right by neoliberals, but have they really convinced people those three had integrity and everything was fine back then?
They weren't calling Biden confused, they were calling the commenter confused.
Biden may be old but he is clearly perfectly capable of doing the job and will most likely be just as capable again.
Saying Biden is "perfectly capable"...
Have you watched him speak?
Like, he doesn't do it often, and for good reason, but the only way someone can say what you just said without intentionally lying, is if they're ignoring their eyes and ears and believing his staff that as soon as a camera isn't pointed at him, Biden suddenly becomes half his age.
If I link any recent video of Biden acting confused, you're going to claim it's a one time thing. No matter how many videos I link, you'll keep claiming it only happens in every video I link.
So how about this?
Why don't you help me and everyone else feel comfortable with Biden?
Link a single video of him as president speaking for more than 3 minutes without fucking something up?
He's the freaking US President, if you can't find a video 3 minutes long of him not getting confused, maybe that means he is confused all the time, the admin is hiding him, and all their claims of what he's like is bullshit.
Now keep in mind you're not just saying he's "good enough" at 81, you're saying he'll stay "perfectly capable" until 85.
I have, yeah. He has a speech impediment. He's had it his entire life. That's not confusion.
As someone with an actual speech impediment I've just started blocking people who say a childhood stutter can reappear 60 years later and cause you to mix up names and just go blank, but never actually stutter.
I just can't believe anyone used logic to get there.
This comment has a better shot of anything else to get me to vote for him instead of abstaining the presidential and just voting down ballot. And before anyone flips their shit, I don't live in swing state. My vote literally can not matter less.
I refuse to vote for someone who supports genocide. I'm conflicted about it because it helps Trump, but I simply cannot vote for Biden. Gaza is part of it, but he's broken his promises.
He said he would halt the border wall construction and instead expanded it and had a photo-shoot at the border. He used the same exact loopholes Trump did to deny and turn away asylum seekers at the border.
He said he would make the Saudis a pariah state for chopping up a journalist and then he signs billion dollar arms deals.
He makes a big deal out of Russian war crimes when 3x more civilians have died in a few months in Gaza than the entire 2 years since the war started in Ukraine.
He went and pretended like Navanly was a hero. He met with Navanly's family. The guy who organized and marched with neonazis in Moscow and referred to Muslims as "cockroaches" that needed to be exterminated.
It's such a ridiculous level of hypocrisy I cannot tolerate.
If Biden, who we know is better than Trump and whom the current also genocidal RNC cower behind, loses, what will your opinion of Trump be in four years? This is a big picture situation and I'd rather the chance to fix things with Biden in a second term. He has kept many promises and we have been able to pressure him into certain positions. Vote for Biden now in order to have a chance to fix things later. That or the RNC takes over and the U.S. heavily steps into tyranny and fascism. That's the writing on the wall.
One leaves a bad taste in your mouth.
The other potentially stains your hands.
I do understand your position. I just feel it's a righteous stance at the wrong time.
i grew up as an illegal immigrant from latin america. trump's comments against latinos (murderers, rapists, etc) and the whole xenophobic border wall thing basically caused me to write him off from the beginning
i will never vote for trump because i can't support a guy who pushes this type of rhetoric (and like you said, that eventually becomes policy. look at roe v wade)
but i also cannot justify voting for biden. if we're being honest, i still haven't 100% decided what i'm gonna do but i'm thinking probably 3rd party unless something dramatically changes between now and november
Your ability to vote now exists because of people like Biden, even if not specifically him, dunno his entire history. Those who crossed lines to find a way. Had the current Republican party and Trump existed back then in the way they do now you and your family would not be here. That is why this is so important. It isn't about us accepting Biden over someone else, it's that in order to deal with Trump and take out his cronies, we must be willing to step up and work together. Once we get back this hump, we can start on reform. I feel people are finally to that point, we just need a chance to make it real.
I get it, but a vote is not an endorsement. I didn't want Clinton in office in 2016, and as a direct result of people like me not voting Clinton, the supreme court has been stacked conservative, and will remain so for potentially decades. We need to vote based on what the best possible outcome will be, not what outcome we wish was possible.
redacted
I recommend listening to Medhi Hasan debate this exact issue on the most recent episode of the podcast "Pod Save America".
So much better of a discussion than can be had in fediverse comments.
The most powerful thing I took away from it is that there are people in Michigan, right now, who have had literal dozens of family members back in Gaza who are now dead just since Oct 7. That actual, real, current loss of lives is always going to be more powerful than " other guy worse". A lot of them may just not vote instead of casting their votes for their Democratic president who's done less than motherfucking Ronald fucking Reagan did in picking up the fucking phone and calling Netanyahu.
It is a goddamn primary election and there isn't oppostion to Biden. Anyone voting uncommitted in the primary is having no actual effect on the general election as Biden will be the nominee no matter what the voters express.
Telling the voters they doth protest too much is electorally a shit strategy.
And shit electoral strategies on behalf of the Democratic Party is how we got Trump once and now likely twice.
That's the truth in very stark terms.
The genocide will continue until morale improves
Except this is about the primary. How is not voting for him in the primary matter? Honestly, the fact that the Democrat party in places like Florida just got rid of the primary so none of the challengers could be voted for is...dumb to me.
I might hate most of the other people running, since they're largely anti-vaccine pseudoscience conspiracy types, but people should still be allowed to vote in the primary.
I've wanted her to be my president since the first time I saw her speak. SOTU response or something iirc?
Then stop bombing children, it's that fucking simple you fucking ghouls.
Going against the best wishes for you and your country because you don't agree with foreign policy (which will not change under either governments) might be the absolute stupidest thing I've ever heard.
I mean, it's not drawing the line though. Both candidates are supportive of Israel, but one is going to be catastrophic for the US and plenty of other countries, while one is going to be...fine? Certainly not great, but not a disaster. Anyone saying they won't vote for Biden because supporting Israel is over the line is just giving better odds to the guy who is actively enthusiastic about genocide and they know it deep down. I wish we had a candidate that would tell Netanyahu to get fucked and put money into humanitarian relief for Palestinians instead, but that's not the reality we live in.
And even if we just look at the Israel/Palestine policy, it's clear that Trump is worse than Biden. Not because Biden is doing a good job but because Donald "Kill the familes!" Trump is batshit insane on this topic and would advocate for every brutality he could think of. Biden at least tries to reign in the worst Netanyahu tries to do. For example by making him stop the hunger siege. Trump never would do that.
Weird a card carrying member of a political party wants you to vote for the incumbent office holder of a different position who is also a card carrying member of the same political party? What interesting times we live in.
Welp... it's not a lie. What a horrible situation to be in. Anyways, it it helps, I find it impossible that trump would support palestine. So it's kind of a useless point atm.
How is Tlaib going to explain to her constituents that supporting Trump - who pushed the Muslim ban and called them shithole countries - by proxy will help them?
Biden may not have the best foreign policy but it really is a fascist wannabe dictator who will absolutely support Bibi regardless or we can choose Biden who isn't a fascist who at least has shown some pushback.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
Gretchen Whitmer, the Michigan governor, pushed back on calls to not vote for Joe Biden over his handling of the Israel-Gaza conflict, saying on Sunday that could help Trump get re-elected.
“It’s important not to lose sight of the fact that any vote that’s not cast for Joe Biden supports a second Trump term,” she said on Sunday during an interview on CNN’s State of the Union.
Tlaib’s sister, Layla Elabed, is the campaign manager for Listen to Michigan, the group that has been leading the effort to get people to vote uncommitted.
The group has the support of 30 elected officials across south-east Michigan, including Abdullah Hammoud, the mayor of Dearborn, which has a large Arab American population.
While Biden will easily win the Democratic primary there, Michigan is a key swing state in the November general election.
“We have left a very damaging impression based on what has been a wholly inadequate public accounting for how much the president, the administration and the country values the lives of Palestinians.
The original article contains 498 words, the summary contains 171 words. Saved 66%. I'm a bot and I'm open source!
"You have two bad choices and you'll like it" - Gretchen Whitmer, sort of
Every Election Cycle, vote to keep sky from falling. Before I die, I would like to have a candidate that somewhat aligns with my priorities.
It puts the genocide on its skin or else it gets the Trump again
If Joe Biden can't take primary era criticism and use it to reinforce his general election campaign then he is truly unfit to lead. I'm voting for Uygur in the primary. We'll see who's still alive for the general.
Lol this tribalism is ridiculous. Biden had one job, to be different than the genocide guy. I don't care about the complexity of the issue here, but when our choices are both establishment warmongers it's not really a choice is it? Is it really that big of a ask not to fund the eradication of a group of people and a nationalist government? That should be the bare minimum for a "leftist" candidate IMHO and it's depressing how the goalpost landed here of all places
Super confusing headline. I understood it as Michigan governor says [she's] not voting for Biden over Gaza war [and she] "supports a second Trump term"
So lets vote towards the furthering of the mistake of the last nazi war, or contribute to the next one.
"Vote me. I'm not the biggest shit" is not a good idea.
This is exactly what Putin wanted when he funded Iran's proxy attack of Israel by Hamas.
You all think the Democratic voters are much smarter than their counterparts? Thats are All products of the same sale broken education system.
No. Here we go again. White people created Trump, let them fix it. Stop undermining and pinning this on muslim voters. They are still a minority. Their votes didn't stop Trump from getting elected in 2016 and it won't stop him now. And asking them to vote for Genocide Joe is the evil thing here. There are 30.000 corpses out there that can't and won't be ignored.
If you vote for any politician instead of the guillotine you are complicit in the genocide of the middle class.
Fuck genocide Joe, I hope he burns in hell the senile old bastard
So, according to both Reddit and Lemmy, we need to be a ONE political party system, where we vote on ONE type of President every election... that's called communism.
My take away is that social media has redefined genocide to mean, "whenever a lot of civilians die," and somehow pinned one on Joe Biden because he won't throw Israel under the bus for defending themselves. Stay classy, fediverse.
Vote blue: destroying Palestine.
Vote red: destroying Ukraine.
*Vote red: destroying Ukraine AND Palestine
Yeah, good point.
Republicans are not going to help Palestine in any way. Much less than Democrats.
And Palestine.
It does not matter at all who is the figurehead of the Great Satan. The Great Satan must fall completely for the world to be free.
Vote Trump.
It would be pretty funny if Trump wins without the popular vote again though.
Haha yeah bro! The disenfranchisement of millions of fellow Americans, utter disregard for the Constitution and rule of law, and the dismantlement of our federal government. What a hilarious prospect that is. /s
The disenfranchisement of American citizens started a long time ago, even well before Trump was still registered as a Democrat.
We have very different definitions of the word "funny".
You don’t like gallows humor?
being on the gallows just hits different.