I don't like the framing in this meme. “Wayland doesn't run on Nvidia” implies that it's a Wayland problem, but it's actually Nvidia that fails to develop a modern, working driver.
It is an Nvidia problem.
And we need to insist on Nvidia being the problem until they give in. Their lack of wanting to take responsibility for distributing graphics cards on the market by not developing working drivers and not even letting the community fix it by open sourcing their driver is not something we should tolerate anymore.
They pissed people enough at this point over the years, with their lack of participation in an driver problem-free environment on Linux, so they should and they will take the blame.
Their "dogshit" drivers work great on X and did so back when ATis hardware was both closed source and hot garbage on Linux and they were utter trash all the way from early 2000s to 2014.
Ok. I'm not really interested in how things were in 2008. I'm interested in the here and now, which is where Wayland is widely used and increasingly used by the day, Nvidia's drivers are a mess and AMD's aren't.
Person A: Man these Nvidia drivers keep causing issues
Person B: Umm ackshully Nvidia drivers used to be better than ATI drivers in 2008 ☝️🤓
Nvidia drivers continue to work great under X 2003-2024 for me. I'm sure Nvidia will work well under Wayland long before I bother to switch. The same folks who are always shitting on Nvidia seem to all own AMD hardware and many have spent years lying about Wayland being totally ready in 2015-2022 after they spent years lying about AMD GPU drivers being great in 2008-2013 when both were largely unusable in that time frame. Since few of the haters actually own any Nvidia hardware I presume they get their information from stroking each-others ego on reddit/lemmy/mastodon.
The same folks who are always shitting on Nvidia seem to all own AMD hardware
Many do... because they know Nvidia is plagued with issues. Why would they buy hardware they've had/will have issues with?
I had to get rid of my 1080 Ti because of how unusably bad the Linux drivers were. AMD has ran great, out of the box, on X11 and Wayland. Wayland has been great, used it for years with no issues outside of with Nvidia hardware.
Maybe when Nvidia gets their shit together and have drivers that work properly ill give them another go.
Until they give in what? What in your fantasies does the open source community of randos have over Nvidia again? Will you withhold your 0.1% of their profits after cost of develoment is considered? If you had paid even the slightest attention you would note the progress in open source drivers supporting newer hardware.
Nvidia has a closed source driver. Wayland tries to support it but Nvidia keeps changing how the driver works every week. So it's impossible to deliver quality with Nvidia shit.
Why are you lying? Large software projects change slowly and stuff like GPU drivers work according to standards and interfaces. The bugs experienced aren't even on the open source software side. The bugs in the general case are largely in the nvidia side and being fixed on that side albeit not briskly.
Users don't care whose problem it is. They can trivially log out and log in and select X changing GPU implies throwing away hundreds or thousands of dollars of hardware. Over 80% of discrete GPUs are Nvidia hardware.
Look, the people over at Wayland made a solid protocol, sure. But for all the time and effort they've put into getting it to the state it's in today, it's going to take a long while for all the apps, DEs, and TWMs to be ready. It took so long for the Linux desktop to get to the state it is on X11, which, for all it's flaws, seems to be easier to develop for than Wayland.
Wacom Drivers, Nvidia Drivers, DE-Agnostic screensharing, screenshot, eyedropper tools are all in various states of not working/sort of working/working on wayland. This simply isn't the case with X11. They all just work. That's kind of a big win for X11 over Wayland.
It doesn't matter how light weight and more secure your protocol is if you can't use the tools you need to get the jobs you need done, whatever those jobs are. That is literally what computers are for at the end of the day, not to lord our superiority over others because our choice of tools are somehow better.
Yes Wayland is the future, but to say "Wayland is ready" while also saying "many of the apps for Wayland are not ready" ends up meaning that wayland is NOT ready.
Until the transition between X and Wayland is seamless (no adjusting environment variables), saying we should all just move to Wayland cuz ”is the future" are engaging in the same FOMO tactics that crytpo and AI bros have been doing for years. Fuck that noise.
You are not somehow better because you use Wayland. And yeah yeah, shots fired, down votes incoming. Come at me tech daddy.
You are absolutely right, I use Wayland on KDE cause two different refresh rate monitores but duude, even on amd you have some hassles. It is ok if you change some env variables, not OK for the average Joe.
I'm so confused why other people are having so much trouble, I use two computers with AMD GPUs and one with Intel and I haven't had any problems with wayland on Gnome, Plasma, Sway, or Hyprland in the past like two years. The only environment variable I ever changed was the one to make firefox use wayland before that was the default, but that wasn't at all required for the average user, it works fine under xwayland.
Things like, scrensharing, OBS (recently was patched and now it works), discord, spectacle (is a little unstable), screen locking (only one screen or none of them turn off) and some xwayland games/emulators won't work. All of this in a full amd setup with KDE.
With one Novideo 1660s my KDE panel frozen every 30 minutes.
If you only use linux for development or browsing you should find no problems.
Weird, I use OBS, lock my screen, and play games all the time and have never had any problems on KDE. Maybe I'm just lucky with my GPU choices? I use an RX 570 on one computer and an RX 6650 XT on the other.
haven't had discord or screen locking issues and I have plenty of monitors. haven't run into any game issues either, but I do preemptively run older stuff in gamescope which tends to avoid a lot of issues
Also, I use two monitors with different refresh rates on Mint / Cinnamon / Xorg and it's more than fine. I think you only need Wayland for variable refresh rate. But two static refresh rates seem to work just fine on X.
They are actually running in different refresh rates? The default is to cap the better monitor in the lower refresh rate. If I accept that it is fine to me as well. If I try to force different refresh rates on kwin , my games run with so much tearing, even with vsync on.
I honestly wouldn't know. One is a 60 Hz TV and the other a 75 Hz office monitor. My son loves to play steam games on the monitor. The graphic configuration tool says the monitors are at that frequency and I can see other frequencies they could operate.
I don't know how to check the actual refresh rate though.
Fair enough. All I know is to get something as simple and necessary to my workflow as using KeePassXC, I had to adjust a few QT flags in my environment variables. No big deal as I actually enjoy configuring my system, but it's in my opinion Wayland will be "ready" when this sort of under the hood tweaking won't be necessary by the user.
Here, I'll pose a simple question that kind of gets at the heart of what I'm talking about. Libreoffice works great on Wayland right? Good, fantastic, kudos to Libreoffice, kudos to Wayland. Now, name me a 2nd office suite that works on Wayland. Just one. This is a genuine question and despite my decent google fu, I can't find a one. I got Open Office to open on Wayland, but it doesn't recognize the entire suite.
Now, this may seem like an unfair argument to make, as there were never many office suites available on Linux to begin with. And there's always been people in the Linux community who will call for more uniformity, but I, like many others, love Linux for it's extreme customizability (amongst other reasons). Wayland severely cuts down on my choices of what TWMs I can use, what DEs are available, and various widely used productivity tools like office suites.
The amount of knots Wayland enthusiasts tie themselves up in to say "but if you just configure this flag, if you just run this through xwayland/game scope, if you just don't use nvidia, then wayland is ready" is just pointing to the fact that it's straight up not.
And that's not the fault of any one entity. Writing a protocol like Wayland is a massive endeavor and is needed. But developers across the board who want to provide support for Linux, are now scrambling to rewrite parts of their applications to conform to this new protocol because yes, they see the writing on the wall (especially with the latest lines in the sand drawn by Red Hat). But isn't the fact that their scrambling to get this accomplished, and convert their apps to Wayland, an indicator that maybe, just maybe, that Wayland as a daily driver for, if not the majority, at least a reasonable part of the Linux community, not ready?
I'm not saying Wayland isn't the future. What I'm saying is until discussions like these are the outlier, not the norm, Wayland isn't ready.
the calligra suite works fine too. open office is basically dead and replaced by libreoffice. I don't know if any development is still happening. I can't name another office suite Wayland or otherwise though
xwayland does just work though. I don't even know how to explicitly run something under it
explicit flags are more of a problem, but they're going away slowly, and for the most part people can just let things run under xwayland instead of dealing with flags. there are some apps that just won't work, but for the most part it's not a widespread issue in my experience
What did you need to set for KeepassXC? The flathub version and fedora RPM just work.
You can modify flatpak permissions easily in KDE or using Flatseal though, to remove a lot and especially restrict keepassXC to only readwrite one directory.
Uhm, what other Office Suite is there on Linux?
Openoffice is discontinued and Libreoffice is the modern Openoffice.
There is KDEs Calligra which can do stuff but I see no reason for it.
WPSOffice is available as a Flatpak wrapper, the app should not be trusted but it runs on XWayland without problems. But really dont use it.
online office suites work perfectly fine through a Browser (Collabora, Onlyoffice, Google cancer, Miscrosoft Cancer)
I have no idea of Onlyoffice but isnt that just Libreoffice with the cloud integration? This is really useful, last time I used their version it was just a weird rebranded Libreoffice.
I have no idea why Wayland should cut down your choices. Use XOrg if you want, nobody stopping you, it is simply unmaintained for years pretty much.
There are TWMs for Wayland and they are said to work (have a look at wayblue), I use KDE and tried GNOME and both work. Use any weird old TWM through rootful XWayland if you really want to. This is not waylands problem, X.org is old spaghetticode that nobody wanted to maintain, and there still is no rise in contributions even with all those self-entitled Linux Experts complaining about their weird old nieche Desktop being abandoned.
Nearly (?) all development is done for XWayland, which is normally used in rootless mode, but you can use it rootfull too, and run a complete XOrg Window manager on a minimalist Wayland compositor. Brody Robertson made a video about that.
XWayland is automatically used for all Apps without Wayland support. I never used Gamescope but suppose this is nice, but I dont care about Gaming as I wasted way too much time of my life there. If you want to game, use uBlue Bazzite and call it a day. Its a modern Distro, based on Fedora, using Wayland, made for steamdecks and also PCs.
I never set a single flag for anything and have no idea how Wayland works, but I used it since at least 1½ years.
Wayland has nothing to do with NVIDIA. It was not ready when it "came out" so people where not giving it a chance for obvious reasons. They preferred to use extremely insecure and unmaintained but working Display management.
Now the pressure finally rises, NVIDIA already shipped a lot of updates for Wayland, but in the end it is their fault and you may not want to use hardware from a company that doesnt give a sh*t about FOSS on Linux. I have no idea why people would want to do that? There is literally the high likeliness of backdoors in your damn GPU driver, allowing the green team to see everything you do.
Why use Linux if you entire Graphics are using a proprietary black box?
Wayland is ready. I have no idea of developing Apps, but I suppose just using a good Toolkit is the start. If you are lazy just use Electron, but Qt works just as well cross-platform, if you are fancy use Slint. We can argue if developing apps for Linux is ready.
I think there are bigger problems like good easy IDEs (only GNOME has one) for Linux, or the packaging issue that is fixed by Flathub. Wayland is just a change.
I have tested a lot of apps, and those are the best. Keep your system secure with modern apps following best practices, using portals, that are Wayland native.
And to be honest, people can just use old Software through XWayland forever. They often dont even need to change.
Projects like Bluerecorder are nice and very alpha on Wayland, here I agree they are struggling to make it work but it works. Using OBS for minimalist screen recording is huge bloat.
A respectable rebuttal. Nicely done. Here are some of my responses.
What did you need to set for KeepassXC? The flathub version and fedora RPM just work.
QT_QPA_PLATFORM=wayland
You can modify flatpak permissions easily in KDE or using Flatseal though, to remove a lot and especially restrict keepassXC to only readwrite one directory.
I prefer my distro's repos whenever possible. But good to know.
Openoffice is discontinued and Libreoffice is the modern Openoffice.
But it works on X. I like using alternatives to the big players in any and all tech spaces. That's why I use Open Office. That's why I want an alternative office suite that works on Wayland to actually compete with Libreoffice(that isn't the online office suites, etc. We appear to be in agreement on that one). But good point, not a Wayland problem. I'll acquiesce to you on that one.
I have no idea why Wayland should cut down your choices. Use XOrg if you want, nobody stopping you, it is simply unmaintained for years pretty much.
I'm not arguing to use Xorg per se, though I can see my arguments being interpreted that way. I'm arguing that the switch to Wayland is more trouble than it's worth right now for some people, and to say Wayland is ready for all is disingenuous, and to somehow look down on those who simply want to keep using X is a shitty thing to do.
There are TWMs for Wayland and they are said to work (have a look at wayblue), I use KDE and tried GNOME and both work. Use any weird old TWM through rootful XWayland if you really want to. This is not waylands problem, X.org is old spaghetticode that nobody wanted to maintain, and there still is no rise in contributions even with all those self-entitled Linux Experts complaining about their weird old nieche Desktop being abandoned.
No argument that X is abandoned, no argument it's spaghetti code. No argument that Wayland is the future. I'm just saying it's not quite the present either. Diversity within the Linux community is a good thing dude. Customizable work flows are awesome for everybody, that's one of the things that makes Linux so much better than the alternatives. I can't wait for Wayland to get to the point where it has that many weird possible workflows going on the way X does right now. That way we can have all the security and no screen tearing you want, with the insane amount of customization options I want.
Personally I want BSPWM and sxhkd on Wayland for the same low RAM cost. River is close, and I'm hoping it gets there, but unless I know c, zig, or rust, I'm not going to be able to customize it to the way I have BSPWM out of the box. Is this Wayland's problem? Hell no! But if I have all I want on X, why switch?
Nearly (?) all development is done for XWayland, which is normally used in rootless mode, but you can use it rootfull too, and run a complete XOrg Window manager on a minimalist Wayland compositor. Brody Robertson made a video about that.
I love Brodie's channel, and that was a great episode! That said, the fact that so much backporting has to be done through xwayland is an unfortunate necessity. If everything just works on X, and I still need a translation layer on top of Wayland to use what already just works, then why not just wait until everything just works on Wayland? Or just use both?
I know you're not saying this, but a lot of the sentiment online seems to be ”stop using X entirely now! Wayland is the future because everybody says so. You use Nvidia? Stop! Your favorite app doesn't work on Wayland? Just use xwayland!" The sentiment is so emphatic, it fails to acknowledge that some entire workflows have been built up around these older applications where no security breaches were encountered, little to no screen tearing was even noticed, and basically no problems occurred. Why bash on these people with this noise when at the end of the day, we just want to get shit done on our computers efficiently, and if X gets us there quicker, and Wayland doesn't, then why switch right now? Especially considering the Wayland enthusiasts have to argue so hard to convince me it all just works when it clearly works on YOUR machine, and hasn't for at least me and also a good number of users? Meanwhile nobody's arguing that despite X's flaws...everything pretty much has worked for a while now.
XWayland is automatically used for all Apps without Wayland support. I never used Gamescope but suppose this is nice, but I dont care about Gaming as I wasted way too much time of my life there. If you want to game, use uBlue Bazzite and call it a day. Its a modern Distro, based on Fedora, using Wayland, made for steamdecks and also PCs.
I actually have little to say on the state of Gaming on Wayland. I have played Cyberpunk on Steam with proprietary Nvidia drivers on Wayland and it looks okay. Once Nvidia fixes the stuttering issues that hit in 545, I'll have no complaints on that. But I only play a single game, so I can't speak to that too much (others have pointed out in this very chat better insights in this regard).
I never set a single flag for anything and have no idea how Wayland works, but I used it since at least 1½ years.
That's good dude. I genuinely look forward to the day when this is the norm.
I have no idea why people would want to do that? There is literally the high likeliness of backdoors in your damn GPU driver, allowing the green team to see everything you do.
Are you going to also criticize Linux users who then use any proprietary software? Is your pure FOSS system running GNU boot and Parabola Linux? I'm not going to defend nvidia the company, but their users who want support on Linux shouldn't be told to just chuck their old cards and go AMD. There are many good reasons why they can't/won't do that, and it's not just gaming or cost. They want CUDA support for AI and also:
Why use Linux if you entire Graphics are using a proprietary black box?
Because I bought one before I knew about the Linux ecosystem and the issues with Nvidia and don't want to contribute to Ewaste if I can help it. Yes I can afford an AMD GPU, and one day, when my Nvidia GPU craps out, I'll buy one, but why spend the money, time, and effort to replace a perfectly working GPU solely for Wayland support? You listed some good reasons why, it's just not enough for me personally and probably for others as well.
Wayland is ready. I have no idea of developing Apps, but I suppose just using a good Toolkit is the start. If you are lazy just use Electron, but Qt works just as well cross-platform, if you are fancy use Slint. We can argue if developing apps for Linux is ready.
I'm sorry, you're adamant that Wayland is ready, but are willing to argue if developing apps for Linux is ready? This seems counterintuitive. Bur yeah, intuititons are often wrong, care to elucidate on why Wayland is somehow ready but app development might not be?
I think there are bigger problems like good easy IDEs (only GNOME has one) for Linux, or the packaging issue that is fixed by Flathub. Wayland is just a change.
This seems like a Linux problem and not an X or Wayland problem. But hey, the Libreoffice argument I made was based on this same unrelated logic, so I'll digress.
Again, I'm not arguing that Wayland isn't the future. What I'm saying is that, even now, it's not ready yet. It's closer than ever and there's obviously a big push to have Wayland everywhere, so it's coming one way or another.
Projects like Bluerecorder are nice and very alpha on Wayland, here I agree they are struggling to make it work but it works. Using OBS for minimalist screen recording is huge bloat.
This is not needed when using the flatpak. And even if the native package falls back to xwayland for whatever reason, maybe that is their choice? There is no problem here.
But it works on X. I like using alternatives to the big players in any and all tech spaces. That's why I use Open Office.
Wtf haha, you know Openoffice is the original? Bought by Oracle, abandoned, everyone was pissed and renamed the project to Libreoffice. Openoffice is dead, it is abandonware and that it exists in repos and is still used today is insane.
Libreoffice is Openoffice, but with updates.
No we dont need an alternative always. We dont need 6 audio recorders, we need 1 good one that does everything right, is fast, secure and usable.
somehow look down on those who simply want to keep using X is a shitty thing to do.
What means look down? There are people not updating their systems, using outdated and insecure stuff but in the typical old people manner try to convince them this is the way. If people refuse to go with the actual development and accept that things will change, this is a huge burden on Developers that are already struggling to get an agreement among people that all agree things need to change.
Nobody is looking down, it is just annoying trying to hold on old crap that made Linux insecure and broken. Flatpak too, Flatpak has the good possibility to end 3rd party packaging for a lot of stuff. This means official packages, less packaging efford and more free time.
You use Nvidia? Stop! Your favorite app doesn't work on Wayland? Just use xwayland!" The sentiment is so emphatic, it fails to acknowledge that some entire workflows have been built up around these older applications where no security breaches were encountered
Nvidia sucks, and it is their job to fix Linux.
Legacy apps work normally through XWayland, most of the time. Multi window stuff is being worked on right now, in a well designed way instead of "apps do what they want" chaos like in x11.
This is free software. People want to use outdated stuff that nobody maintains. If they dont maintain it, they have to deal with what the developers want to do and what not. This is not a paid product, Devs dont owe anyone anything. "Using Linux" is not helping them.
Meanwhile nobody's arguing that despite X's flaws...everything pretty much has worked for a while now.
Things will break. And the question is, do you trust every app so much that it can do all the stuff it can on Xorg?
Nobody stopping anyone from staying with Xorg. It is simply not maintained anymore, and they should know they are using dying software that will break. For me XOrg didnt work better than Wayland, I think it had more errors in a lot of Laptop stuff like scaling, fonts, etc.
That's good dude. I genuinely look forward to the day when this is the norm.
If you use modern software packaging you may see that these things are already there. Flatpak has this, easily.
Its a state in between so Electron apps may not use Wayland yet, some apps may simply not work, some may use Xwayland for no reason. But its just a few switches and testing, or in most cases the user could not do anything and it would work somehow.
Yes I can afford an AMD GPU, and one day, when my Nvidia GPU craps out, I'll buy one, but why spend the money, time, and effort to replace a perfectly working GPU solely for Wayland support?
I simply want to stress how absurd it is. I know even Coreboot is mostly blobs, and Linux-libre doesnt run anywhere. I am on a Thinkpad... I had to not use a kernel hardening parameter because my BIOS sucks.
But really, using a proprietary driver is not like "yeah it is not very cool but works", this is literally the biggest weakness in your entire system. You can for sure sell that card to someone, and I am not telling you I dont hate E-waste and artificial obsolescence through bad Software.
I really love the effords of Coreboot, OpenWRT, Linux on Macs, Nuveau etc. But its a lot of work.
I hope Intel produces some cuda alternative soon, they care about FOSS afaik.
I'm sorry, you're adamant that Wayland is ready, but are willing to argue if developing apps for Linux is ready? This seems counterintuitive. Bur yeah, intuititons are often wrong, care to elucidate on why Wayland is somehow ready but app development might not be?
Nearly nobody will write an app for wayland, but in a Toolkit that supports Wayland. So IDEs need to improve for Linux to improve, to stop people from doing lazy stuff like Electron. If people use nieche toolkits like those Go Apps do, I just say goodbye and use an alternative (alternativeto.net).
What I'm saying is that, even now, it's not ready yet
For very specific use cases
for people that refuse any change while also not maintaining or donating enough to make that possible
for tiny Desktops and Window managers that just piggybacked ontop of XOrg and would now need to use wlroots
for products where the devs just didnt act until its now a bit late, like nvidia drivers, Linux Mint, etc.
Fantastic breakdown and rebuttal. I concede on all points save one. But before I nit pick a bit a couple things.
One is thank you so much for tsking the time to rebuke me with such detail and finesse. I enjoy prodding people on these things because I find back and forths like this more engaging and informative when a stance is taken rather than just Q & A. I know it must bave taken you a bit of time to write up thede answers, so thank you.
Secondly, I just wanted to commend you on totally eviscerating me on the Only Office bit. i had forgotten on that point and hadn't taken the simple step of searching beforehand. It was a poorly made point and I sincerely apologize for posing that weak argument. Yeah yeah, you're probably thinking "the entire argument was weak". And I'll not try to convince you otherwise (I'd be unlikely to succeed anyways, right?).
Now, my only point of contention:
No we dont need an alternative always. We dont need 6 audio recorders, we need 1 good one that does everything right, is fast, secure and usable.
Now, my only contention here is that competition, true competition, is good. I'd say you always need at least 2 major nearly equal players in any of these fields. I don't want there to be 1 Linux distro, I don't want there to be 1 Office Suite, I don't want there to be 1 package manager, and hell, I don't want there to be 1 display protocol (and for that I am very happy wayland exists for that reason alone).
Competition over best implementations is good, and more selfishly for me in particular, more choice is good. You can argue that those choices can stifle innovation as it divides the talent base over possibly trivial minutiae of implementation (or just create a poor implementation outright), but ultimately what drove me to Linux was not my admiration for it being secure or light weight, but rather it is the availability of the many choices available.
I'd rather not see that wrangling up of the diversity that exists within the Linux ecosystem go away in the interest of conformity to a singular best practice. With all the consequences that entails.
You are welcome, it took some time and I actually accidentally swiped back and deleted like 6 paragraphs but hey.
Now, my only contention here is that competition, true competition, is good. I'd say you always need at least 2 major nearly equal players in any of these fields
I dont know... KDE is using Qt, GNOME is using GTK. KDE breaks all the time, GTK attracts many developers of small software with nearly no customizability, but that works.
KDE apps are still looking a bit dated but refuse to follow the "padding everywhere" BS that GNOME, Windows 11, MacOS etc use.
I dont know what the word "competition" means in FOSS. These are not companies serving customers, fighting for marketshare. These are just products by and for the community. It sucks that KDE does all the cool stuff, but is inherently memory unsafe as f*ck, GNOME not even having the most basic features but being very stable, and nobody caring about Cosmic really.
Wlroots is nice, and it would be really cool if all projects could just use that. Wlroots is not complete like KWin.
Actually, XOrg, Linux, GNU, there are so many projects that just dont have an alternative and that helped to create products that all work but have a different look and feel. Under the hood they where all just fancy XOrg.
I think there are problems with monopole projects that are bloated and eat up more and more subprojects. This makes 0% sense and should not be done.
The Linux kernel is a mess. It is full of random vendor blobs for XYZ hardware, poorly written code (according to Jeremy Soller) and everything on every machine.
Look at windows. It kinda "feels weird" to have those branded "AMD Radeon Driver®" display in the task manager. But the fact that they show up, nobody gets that. They are seperate processes in the equivalent to Linux userspace. You can restrict them, give them permissions etc.
It "just works" but its horrible. Any random code by any weird manifacturer just gets thrown into the Kernel, because Distros can't unite on how userspace is supposed to look like. So instead of fixing that problem and putting all drivers into userspace so users can just use what they actually need and just remove the rest, we have this huge and not even FOSS blob that runs everywhere.
I think I want to switch from Fedora Kinoite to something like NixOS, as I think building the kernel for your actually used hardware, removing everything else, is essential for security.
The next project is systemd, which works well, is somewhat nice to manage (I still find it very confusing to create services but I guess this is nice?) But it is pretty horrible.
It is a huge binary, a single one, always running. You would need to fork it and remove and replace stuff to not break it. It is a de facto standard and makes no sense, why would you
bundle everything in a binary
make it impossible to replace parts
use a memory unsafe language with no sign to switch
Their Github issues are insane, I cant imagine anyone even wants to look at 1k open issues. This would simply not be the case if it was split up. Could still be used as a bundle, but if (like with rust rewrites of GNU core utils, like uutils) people would rewrite parts, they could test them seperately and slowly move the project to Rust for example.
So yeah, monopole projects suck if they are not modular. Desktops should work on the same things though, to make them work well. GNOME is supposedly very specific about mutter so nobody wants to use it, but KDE could possibly switch to wlroots if it has feature parity with Kwin and that would really reduce useless duplication of work.
You dont need competition, just talk to people in the same project, everyone has different goals.
I think it may be a Lemmy 'caching' issue (has to be cached at least once kind of thing, as someone explained to me once). I'm not using an app. but the https://lemmy.world/ web site (on Firefox/Linux).
it is simply unmaintained for years
There are security updates that were pushed out like 3 weeks ago. This is simply a lie.
Now the pressure finally rises, NVIDIA already shipped a lot of updates for Wayland, but in the end it is their fault and you may not want to use hardware from a company that doesnt give a sh*t about FOSS on Linux.
Nvidia had good working support from 2003-2024. From 2003-2014 ATi/AMD GPU support on Linux was hot garbage and at first not even open source, from 2014-2016 it was decidedly inferior, and from 2017 on it was supposedly decent. I say supposedly because I'm still a little paranoid about buying that shit because between 2006-2014 AMD fanboys were just steady continually lying their asses off about AMD cards not being steaming piles of runny shit on Linux. The only people less honest than Nvidia fanboys its a SOBs who have been telling us Wayland was ready for prime time for the last 9 years. Hey it might even be true now but who believes liars?
I like nvidias tooling and features. Gaming on X works well. Screen sharing works well. High DPI works well. Mixed DPI works well. i3wm works well. Everything has continually worked well for 21 years.
Weird, i feel like I should be getting more errors with how the comment section is making wayland sound, but on my mac 2019 it was honestly plug n play even for sunshine game stream (and supports waydroid which brought me over)
Digimend works flawlessly. Also if you have a tablet you should be aware that you're not exactly a typical user. Blender runs natively under wayland, btw,
Much of the griping you hear right now is because wayland got into a state where it does do everything the average user would ask for so the switchover is happening for real, meanwhile tons of projects have ignored the writing on the wall for a literal decade and invested zero effort so far and now are caught with their pants down.
My migration looked like this: About a year ago or so I read some wayland article, wondered for a brief second, logged out of my session, said "ah!" and selected "Plasma (wayland)" from the dropdown: NixOS installs both flavours when you tell it to give you KDE. Tried it out, found nothing wrong with it, grumbled a bit because it wasn't the default session, found the config option to make it default, done.
Ever since then alt-tabbing from proton games is way better, mpv does a much better job at actually using VRR, the only problem I ever had with the setup is mouse cursor changing when hovering over firefox because dconf was missing and it couldn't read the gtk theme that KDE sets to make everything look coherent. That's literally it.
Solid. I do authentically look forward to Wayland working out of the box for as many use cases as X does right now.
Thanks for the tidbit about tablets I actually fo uee a wacom, so this is probably not what I'm looking for. Sway has a weird workaround specific to their wm, hopefully river can port that over. Otherwise there seems to be other solutions, but I have yet to install/configure them.
Wayland runs some games I play much better. It does though for some reason after a while start to lag out with cpu usage off the charts. I found I don't have that issue with xorg. I have amd, and some games with wayland will after a fresh restart have terrible frame rates but seems like five to ten minutes later they come back and it's fine. (issue doesn't happen in xorg) Depending on what game I'm playing or what I'm doing, depends on if run wayland or xorg. It's as simple as logging out to change so it's no big deal for me.
I use xfce, I have nvidia card, I sometimes capture a video of my screen and I regularly share my screen. Didn't even try.
I'll use Xorg until its deprecated or Wayland offers me some benefit other than "is new and shiny and the internet told me is cool"
I also became a bit sceptical about it with so many open source projects and basic functionality not supporting it yet after sooo many years of "Wayland is here"... so yeah, I'll wait until someone gets xorg from my dead cold hands 😁
also I don't get how aggressive people get about what other people have in their desktop, dude let me live my linux life alone 🤷♂️
Fair enough. I used XFCE for 15 years and decided to give Hyprland a go. Still some rough edges, and some shockingly basic things are still being figured out (should multiple windows from the same process be able to set different icons, and windows being able to set--or even hint--where they want to go), but overall I've had basically zero issues, and I'm enjoying it enough that I made the change permanent. Screen share and streaming work fine. I wouldn't call the overall functionality mature, but it's perfectly workable. Unless, you know...Nvidia. I've heard it's gotten a bit better lately, but I wouldn't have switched if I hadn't gone AMD for my new GPU.
When they added vrr support for wayland, I can't play games anymore without continuous screen tearing and duplicate images. I guess they didn't test gsync certified monitors on their own Wayland drivers. Until that and the taskbar on kde gets fixed I'll be waiting. Kde taskbar freezes without warning on Wayland with Nvidia.
Maybe the open source drivers will soothe my woes when they're ready.
I suppose it has to do with my general kde setup and many tweaks and adjustments over the years..maybe i should wipe everything and give it a fresh try..
It actually runs and feels smoother for me in a 144hz display and 2016 NVDIA card. Of course it still has its glitches and strange things happening from time to time, while with Xorg it "just works". I'd say it's still in alpha stage for Nvidia users, which require some tweaking and extra env variables to properly work; and in beta stage for everyone else
Screen sharing is still a pain in my experience. I'm a tiling window manager guy. I used i3 for years. Switched to sway, but have issues because xdg-desktop-portal-wlr can't do application sharing, only entire screen sharing. Well I have a ultra ultra wide screen, so people can't see shit on normal monitors when I try to share my screen. So at work, where I regularly have video conferences, I'm constantly changing my screen resolution so that I can screen share something that looks OK to others, but 1980x1024 looks ridiculous on my end on my ultrawide.
Hyperland can share applications and even regions, which is awesome, and I tested it successfully on my home gentoo system, but it only worked on Firefox. Didn't work for my jitsi electron app and didn't work in qutebrowser. And hyperland isn't easily installable on Ubuntu which is what I run for work because my work computer needs to just werk (gentoo is probably even more stable but I can't mess with long complie upgrades at work and some corporate software is only available as .debs)
So yea my life would honestly be easier if I just stuck with i3 everywhere but I'm stubbornly trying to use Wayland because I know it's the future but don't kid yourselves, it is a pain in the ass
What I don't like about Wayland is that many things are specific to individual DEs.
Like global shortcuts or taking screenshots. In my app I have two different solutions for taking screenshots in GNOME and KDE using XDG portals. It causes fragmentation.
o wow didn't know this. such horrible design decision! So if I understood correctly ALL the apps that want to screenshot need to write independent code for each desktop environment??? I was just mostly ignoring Wayland until becoming mature, but now I actively dislike it with passion.
So, if this is true and I understand correctly, it means that if I chose to use Xfce (as I do), I'll have to hope really hard that zoom, skype, slack, discord... decide to provide support for not only linux,.... but XFCE or give up and abandon XFCE? yeah f*** Wayland, they really didn't think about the open source community when designing their solution. I don't wat to even think of people that use other smaller desktop managers...
I mean, screen sharing is basic functionality these days, in the interview for my current job I needed to use.. I think it was teams. Is not even something you can chose, is bad enough to be exclusive linux user as it is, always wondering if in such cases something will not work.
Honestly, long live Xorg. if deprecated and I have to switch to gnome/kde or lose functionality I might as well switch to windows after 20 something years of not using it.
Global shortcuts are even worse. It also DE specific and users have to manually register them in DE settings. In order for your application to support this, it should export such functions via the Dbus interface. And all this incompatible with Windows (my app is cross-platform), so I had to provide in-app interface for global shortcuts too that works for Windows and X11 users.
Not trying to be a menace, but I just tried it out using xdg-portal-test-kde and the screenshot portal definitely works on KDE Plasma 5.27.10.
If you are experiencing issues with that, please create a bug report for xdg-desktop-portal-kde so it can be fixed.
Screen sharing is fine, handled by Pipewire. OBS is adding (has added?) streaming through Pipewire too. And I've had no issues getting screenshots using grim, which isn't tied to a specific compositor. Not everything is copacetic, but the things you're talking about are mostly non-issues these days.
Looks like I'm quitting my job because Wayland is the future asshat. How about I just run both X and Wayland on my computer, file bug reports on what doesn't work with Wayland, and continue to use X until they fix it or you pull your head out of your own ass? Whichever comes first.
Lol. Last time I checked you were the one shouting into the abyss that X is dead. Did the OP's meme get under your skin so bad you had to go on a caps lock tirade about how sick you were of hearing this argument and X is dead, etc?
If your criticism had added even one iota of thought to the conversation backing up your opinion, I would have just scrolled on by. There is a plethora of easily accessible data for you to choose from to back up your argument. You could have cherry picked ANY argument you wanted about why Wayland is the future from google and just posted that instead? That seriously would have shown more respect to the people who want to have an honest discussion on the topic.
But no, instead you took the time to basically call everyone who took the time to post here stupid rather than just, y'know, move the fuck on? So yeah, I took some time out of my day to call you out for what you are, an asshat.
Now, are you gonna chill the fuck out, take your ball, and go home? Or do you have some actually constructive criticism to contribute to the conversation? Cuz seems to me outside of throwing another tantrum, those are your only two options.
Most people want to do things not file bug reports and wait months for them to be addressed. X gets security updates as needed and will get such for literally years. X is dead like rock not dead like disco.
Unfortunately I just want to be able to work though and Wayland keeps hanging and crashing without producing any relevant logging, despite the fact I'm working on an AMD iGPU.
In the end Wayland and X are tools, if a tool doesn't fit the job it gets replaced. I don't care X is dead, at least it works for me. Probably not the most popular thing to tell around here, but it's what it is.
Bro, I do file bug reports and even fix things from time to time, Wayland is so broken for me I can’t work. Also, when bug reports are met with “it’s nvidia’s fault” and hostility towards the submitter, that further turns me off from participating.
For like half a second my brain thought this was a meme comparing the fictional megacorps Zorg Industries from "The Fifth Element" and the Weyland-Yutani Corporation from the "Alien" franchise.
Most things would be solved if mainteners EVER updated their app's electron version or stopped doing custom things with it and just let electron read $XDG_CONFIG_HOME/electron-flags.conf
Yeah lots of reports of RDNA graphics jank in the amdgpu DRM issue tracker. Its a shame because the Steamdeck is the exact same architecture and has absolutely rock solid drivers, but there's really poor testing outside of valve for drivers on linux
The situation is rapidly getting better, and I’m daily driving Fedora 38 with 3060Ti using the RPMFusion Nvidia driver and Gnome+Wayland. Everything (and I do mean everything) I’ve tried has all its basic functionality at baseline. Xwayland is a thing and it covers for not having true Wayland support in alot of cases. Not like there aren’t bugs and QOL issues, but from what I’ve seen Nvidia is engaged and working to fix them. We should probably try to critique Nvidia/Wayland based on specific issues now, instead of broad brush “Nvidia/Wayland bad” rhetoric…
I see people having a good to great experience with NVIDIA on Wayland.
I lack that ability, I can never get my PC to run well on Wayland. (using the propriety drivers)
hoping the new GSP firmware and the improvements to MESA-Nouveau + NVK fixes my issues. even if their are teething pains.
because of how unusable it currently just is for me.
course if I had the money, the easiest fix to make Linux usable for me is to buy a AMD GPU.
FYI, I have a 2070Super. It is a consistently bad experience on it, with the NVIDIA propriety drivers.
Huh weird, i tried two distros and DE's, arcolinux hyprland and kde on endeavor and both ran significantly slower, most noticebly on games (or a game, but i think that game should work on Wayland?) But even out of videogames the sistem still didn't felt that smooth
My processor is an i5 3470, i have some difficulties knowing if it should work like this or not, cuz there's not much info bout such processor running wayland
I have a weird setup, which is my fault I guess, but it results in me having two keyboards with different languages. And I frequently switch between them in my workflow, so it can be super annoying to manually switch the language every time.
On X I use a combination of two tools to automatically set the language per keyboard, which works even when hotplugging.
On wayland I found no alternative so far, but if you have any ideas, please let me know.
I don't know about other compositors, but on Hyprland and Sway you can configure things per device (in the config file). I'd give an example here but I'm on my phone right now.
I have a laptop and a desktop with slightly different keyboard layouts, and both machines share the same config file.
Not sure why you have a tool to "set the language", what would happen if you tried to use both keyboards at once?
I honestly don't recall the details and can't check right now. It's been working like that for years.
I remember the main issues I was having were around yubikey, my usb hub which can switch between two pc's and hotplugging. So I had to use a second tool which did something on any device plugin.
I think using both keyboards at once worked fine. I didn't mean system keyboard language.
I managed to use Waypipe to open a GUI programa unde another user in the same Wayland display (actually someone else did a script for it, it's in my profile history), so I guess it is possible to forward it with Waypipe remotely
Sometimes apps just don't work properly in Wayland, I have two development VMs with Ubuntu, and in both cases I had to switch to X11 because of UI issues with Wayland and eclipse plugins or crashes when I closed a terminal window.
On the other hand I use Wayland on my own desktop and have not seen any problems.
xrandr. afaik, there's no (standard) way to set display resolution from the command line in wayland. also, there's no equivalent of xkill, so in order to kill an unresponsive gui app, you have to grep for its pid in ps, which can get a bit tedious and annoying, especially for programs which spawn multiple processes.
Yeah, I just ran into this recently. I honestly wouldn't care if there was a way to set the resolution and refresh rate to what my monitor actually is in a GUI somewhere, but gnome thinks my monitor only runs at either 24 or 23hz. Frusterating.
You misremember. Back in 2010 the command was optirun. Although more than one solution exists under the hood user friendly distros (not arch) generally had you right click on the game in your menu and select something like run with nvidia. Throughout the last like 14 years the 2 dominant things were optirun foo and prime-run foo
Sway can't set my 3 displays as extended like I can with i3 with xorg.
Also I recently wanted to try to record on OBS with sway to rule out an issue that I have with my AMD card with colors, and I wasn't able to get OBS to work, installed xdg-desktop-portal-wlr, set the XDG_CURRENT_DESKTOP=sway environment variable and didn't work.
Also for some reason my xfce4 apps are ignoring my xdg base dir variables (I have config and cache inside ~/.local) when using either sway or hyprland and that results in issues with my theming and the creation of the .config and .cache dirs in home again, what is weird is that it only happens with the xfce apps.
EDIT: I was able to test OBS on hyprland instead of sway and the issue with the colors is still present even on wayland.
My work uses slack. The screenshare doesn't work with Wayland. Steam link/remote play doesn't work with a Wayland host (at least it hasn't every time i have tried it). For my gaming pc i only switch to X when i want to use the steam link and use Wayland the other 99.99% of the time because in general it is better. For work i exclusively run X. I started with Wayland, but then there were several occasions where i had to logout then login again switching to X just so i could share my screen which was a massive pain. I love Wayland, but i can totally understand people not wanting to switch until the tools they are used to (or are required to use) work properly under Wayland.
Mine works okay on Debian 12 plasma. It was a little work to get it to not require root. The flat pack worked out of the box but then plugins became an issue so I went back and screwed with permissions till I got it working.
I can't complain, installed Fedora 39 Kinoite and everything is working great. The only thing I have noticed is that drag and drop from dolphin into some flatpak applications is not working; But that is pretty much it and I am not even sure if Wayland is causing this. This is honestly the most usable Linux has ever been for me.
Basic functionality. Anyone that actually thinks Wayland is ready either doesn't use it or is just straight coping. Maybe it'll get there, but... honestly, probably not.
Come back to me when I don't need to treat wayland like a bethesda game and install a bunch of mods, plugins, packages, and do a bunch of other crap just to get basic functionality.
I've used Wayland pretty much exclusively for about 2 years. The only problem I've had is discord screensharing not working, but I just use OBS' virtual webcam for that anyway because screensharing always crashed discord for me on X11 anyway.
I think all you need to install is OBS studio and v4l2loopback both of which your distribution probably has packages for. Then you just make a scene, add either the "Screen Capture (PipeWire)" or "Window Capture (PipeWire)" sources to it and click the "Start Virtual Camera" button. Anything that supports a webcam will just see it as another camera on your computer you can use.
I was in the same camp one year ago. I sometimes still use it due to Synergy not working otherwise.
It's a common occurrence in X11 that I get a full screen "Oops something broke. [Log out]"-screen, except you cannot log out because the screen doesn't register any inputs.
So, these days: Wayland just works, and X11 (except for some specific software) causes problems. But, I aslo use AMD GPU.
So, what in particular is not ready with Wayland? I hated it two years ago. Now, I have little reason to.
screen recording/sharing, automation, it's inherant fragmentation because it decided that basic window server functionality should be implemented on the DE, basically every driver but a super small subset of drivers for devices the devs care about which do not include nvidia drivers which are a huge portion of the userbase, the absolutely ridiculous architectural choices that intentionally blocks basic functionality, and furthermore causes a crash to completely freeze your computer which forces restart, a complete failure to understand standard monitor EDID, and a refusal to allow you to set them yourself (to this day my monitor, a bog standard 144hz 1440p LG monitor, is not supported by wayland), no global hotkeys, broken sleep mode, breaks appimages entirely, no redshift, the developers made sweeping design decisions that don't work and then get pissy and throw temper tantrums in the mailing lists when people point out that they don't work, heavily moving away from portability and modularity (the devs think nobody uses BSD?!), windows can't raise themselves or keep themselves raised, or absolutely position themselves, so toolbars/utilities/etc can just go fuck themselves, sudo gets broken and has to pipe passwords everywhere as a workaround which means sudo has increased attack surface on wayland, and color management is non-existent.
And this is just shit I have personally ran into the last time I tried it, which was about 4 months ago.
I don't know about all of those. Not sure if you downvoted me, in which case you might have the predisposition of not giving a shit. In which case I'd be most happy to oblige.
As for the technical implementations / shortcomings, I... don't really care about it. The reason I didn't use Wayland before was because things didn't work. The reasons why I don't use X11 now, is because things occasionally stop working. The reason why I still sometimes use X11, is that unless I do so, some specific software doesn't work. That's the frame of mind I have, and I don't have any allegiance or vested interest beyond that. You seem to have that, and that's great. Caring about the technical details has my respect.
So as for the stuff you mention that is directly user-facing:
Screen recording used to be a problem, haven't had that issue recently. OBS records my screens and part of it, just fine.
Window sharing like you could with X11 with ssh -X is amazing, and doesn't work, but it's been about 15 years since I used it.
Crashes that completely freeze my computer. Doesn't happen in Wayland. Happens in X11 (it's not a kernel panic, but whatever it is, I have to reboot, end result is the same to me).
Have had no issues with any of the monitors I own.
Global hotkeys work, and have always worked, for me. If it didn't, I simply wouldn't use Wayland, as a lot of my workflows surround tools I have built and trigger with global hotkeys.
Sleep mode, I don't use. Is that the same as Hibernation?
I don't use a single appimage, but I downloaded one to try now, and it worked fine.
What is redshift?
"Windows can't raise themselves or keep themselves raised", does this mean to request to be in focus? I'm curious which programs benefit from this.
sudo is insecure by default in Wayland? How come? I'd be interested to know how it has anything to do with wayland/x11. unless you mean GUI applications executed with sudo, not having access to wayland stuff?
The reason I care about the technical implementation shortcomings is because they don't go away. They don't magically fix themselves over time, they snowball, especially when the maintainers refuse to admit they're shortcomings and insist on doubling down on them.
As time goes on, new functionality and technologies are going to emerge, and you need to be able to fold those, cleanly and reliably, into your codebase. And frankly, wayland's devs are having trouble getting past and even current technologies implemented cleanly into their codebase, because they're made architectural decisions that exclude those technologies. This is just going to be more and more of a problem as time goes on, imo.
Screen recording CAN work... if client devs go out of their way to work around wayland, like OBS did. That is not a long term solution, or even a solution we should be encouraging.
yes
personally I have crashes on wayland, none on X11. even when x11 does crash though, you just drop to terminal. Whatever is locking your system up, it might not actually be X11 itself. Wayland, you do actually have to reboot, it's a standing architectural issue.
nice
I'm on ubuntu gnome w/ AMD gpu, and they straight up do not work. You can set a global hotkey for the OS/wayland itself, but there is no way to set a global hotkey for/from a program, e.g. set a key combo for 'clip last 30 seconds' like I can in X11. Again, conscious design decision by wayland devs that breaks a lot of use cases. I think there's some third party plugin for wayland that fixes this, but I shouldn't need the wayland equivalent of nexusmods to get my window manager working. This ain't skyrim. :P
sleep and hibernate are pretty close to the same thing- sleep mode saves your current state to RAM, hibernate stores it to disk. hibernate uses less power draw and recovers cleanly from power loss. These days I think most front-ends call 'hibernate' sleep, and don't actually provide sleep as an option, because it's imo better. I meant hibernate, and I should have clarified, because linux does actually allow you to pick and choose.
some appimages work, but it's because they work around wayland. These days there's a package you can include in your app image to hep with that iirc, but again that's kind of dumb.
redshift is f.lux. Basically, eye strain relief.
toolbars, utilities, etc. For example, I have a program that adds an overlay to my screen for discord, so when someone talks in discord their avatar pops up on the left side of my primary screen. This not only doesn't work in wayland, it can never work in wayland, because it intentionally refuses to allow programs to set their own screen position, control whether they appear over other things, or even know where on the screen they are on the screen.
I do hope it improves. I never understood why Wayland became a thing, if it's fundamentally flawed. But then, on the other hand, it's strange to not make the improvements in X11, unless that too is fundamentally flawed.
xdotool. I just spent a non zero amount of time building and setting up ydotool (a similar tool that works on Wayland) as a systemd service on my raspberry pi. Made me appreciate how nice it is to just install a thing and have it work flawlessly even after a reboot and all you ever did to set it up was a single installation command that completed in like 3 seconds.
If my laptop suspends (?), the graphics get scrambled. Like, I shut the lid, come back a few hours later, and it's a completely garbled mess. Happens with Wayland; doesn't happen with X11.
I can't run console apps like jdupes through mtp protocol in wayland which is very troublesome for me since i using it alot, but i successfully can run it in xorg because it mounts as a folder not as protocol, and yes I've tried to use gui "open this folder in terminal" in wayland programs like jdupes still don't work through mtp but in xorg they do regardless of how i do it
I got one of those NUCs at work that has new Intel XE integrated graphics. X11 works amazing, but wayland operates like a slideshow when I move windows around. Never looked much into it, just went to X11 and never went back.
Workrave. Does not work at all on Wayland. But I have been using Wayland the last two years and I am glad that I made the switch. The beginning was a bit rough, but I am glad that I never have to deal with screen tearing ever again on Linux.
I've been using Linux almost exclusively (except for a stint of 6 years where my employer provided me with Macs, and even then my personal machinesiwere Linux). I've never had an NVidia, but my GPUs have ranged the rest of the options, mostly Intel and AMD. I haven't seen screen tearing since maybe the early 00s? So many Wayland advocates pick this one Xorg issue, and I haven't seen it in decades, and almost as many different computers.
Is it NVidia? Is that the common factor? That's the only thing I can think of, since I've never had an NVidia card.
Oh man, reminds me of trying to use slightly non-standard monitor with wayland.
X? Just tell it to be the resolution/refresh rate. Wayland? Just get fucked.
Xorg? Wayland? Seems like I lack context to understand that competition.
My distro came wirh Cinnamon, and it died two times on my setup after updates - black screen after login - before I installed Xfce instead and still use it daily. I love that unlike Windows you can just jump ships and unsubscribe from what you dislike. This meme draws that freedom as something bad. It's not healthy to the community...
... but if there would be a DE war, Xpect frequent combat engagements, as the way to your land and ten of your HQs are marked with red Xs on my map.
This is a bit different to DEs. X11 and Wayland are display server protocols. For some time all DEs used X11, but it wasn't perfect and had some issues, so some folks came up with Wayland to replace it. I don't know a lot about the differences but one example I have is that you can't have two monitors with different resolution scaling on X11. Wayland solves that issue.
X11 has been around for a long time, though, and does a lot of stuff, probably more stuff than a display server should. and so a lot of Linux programs have come to rely on those things. This means that the change to Wayland is not straight forward, it meant rewriting a whole bunch of X11 functionality that Wayland would never add.
This will probably be a good thing in the long run, but as of now a lot of people are still not ready to change. And to mirror your sentiment, nor should they have to.
Also: I probably don't know as much about this topic as some others, so correct me at will.
I learnt some things reading you, thank you. As a newbie to Linux I'm not the one to argue anything. But I had an urge to shitpost, and my last sentence comes from an abbreviature of XFCE and references both Wayland and X11. I'm an artist more than I'm a thinker.
Xorg and Wayland are two protocols every Desktop Environment use and is, from my limited knowledge on it, the thing that tells the DE how to behave and display windows on your screen.
Since 1984, the Linux world uses Xorg (now at the 11 edition: X11) but now, there is a massive transition towards a protocol more secure and focused around privacy called Wayland because first, it's objectively better, and because X11 will soon be deprecated/abandoned. But due to its way of handling things (like for example, windows can't see each other: they think they're alone on the PC, preventing some programs from spying on each others but also preventing them to communicate with each other, like to share screen or screenshot. We have portals to solve that now though, so no worries), Wayland struggle to convince everybody and therefore is heavily criticized, mostly because it's sort of being forced due to the Xorg team letting the project die to develop Wayland, the successor, waiting for every distros and their DE to adopt it.
But despite not directly mentioning those protocols, you're right by saying "you can just jump ships and unsubscribe from what you dislike" because honestly, nobody's preventing people from continuing to use Xorg and groups from continuing the development of DE based on Xorg or simply continuing the Xorg project, but if they want to progress and evolve with the rest of the world, they will have to switch to Wayland eventually.
I mean that I have screen tearing on Firefox with Xorg, which is why I used to use Chromium, when I switched to Wayland I realised that the tearing had stopped.
Ahh yes, this is probably the main reason I use Wayland, even being not well cooked yet. Screen tearing in games was insufferable using 2 monitors with different refresh rates.
You are most definitely running Discord in XWayland. You need to add chromium flags to make it run in native Wayland. You also need to have an xdg desktop portal to support screen sharing.
If you want screenshare to work on an app that can't run in wayland, use XWaylandVideoBridge
Most GUI utilities that integrate into the OS of some kind require drawing over apps. It's absurd that Wayland doesn't support this properly for uhhh no reason other than vague claims of improved security and process isolation. If someone's into your system with such a degree of access it's all over anyway.
If I'm not using Gnome, then I'll be using i3 and then I honestly could care less which one, I'll just be using the most compatible one which I think is just xorg. Plasma just sucks I'm so sorry, it's messy.
And I'm sorry but there's no serious work you can do with an AMD GPU either. I wish it wasn't like this but it is, no CUDA no joy.
Wayland is DOA and will never replace Xorg. Deal with it.
I never used guake with i3 since scratchpads exist and are the general solution, and sway works fine there.
and there's plenty of screenshot apps that work. I haven't tried gnome-screenshot, but I find it hard to believe that it or some alternative gnome one doesn't work given the effort the project has put into Wayland
nvidia support isn't great but it is getting better. I haven't bought nvidia in forever but I know plasma and gnome both say they have support for Wayland on nvidia now.
For gaming amd is great, for real work I'd just rent time on some cloud service lol. If I'm that worried about performance my one consumer gpu isn't going to make a dent either
I used a 3080 on Wayland and the only thing that didn't work was night light (red tint mode).
At this time nvidia-open was marked as not viable for desktop. In 6.7 noveau has gsp support so the open source path has improved rapidly.
It was shortly after their hack that they announced partnership with RedHat / Canonical devs to make their graphics driver better. It's going to have a similar arch to how the AMD drive is under the name nvidia-open. However the proprietary driver does work on Wayland at this point in time.
Nvidia works great on Wayland. Even unusual configuration I'm running with egpu hooked up to a laptop with another Nvidia card built in. Zero issues. I'm allergic to Gnome, but KDE works beautifully.
I’m running with egpu hooked up to a laptop with another Nvidia card built in.
Hey could you please point me to some resources to wrap my head around what I need to know to consider an egpu setup with Linux? Just looking for something that will overview of requirements and pain points, all the better if I can try to figure out what a good bang for the buck rig looks like right now.
This is something I've been curious about for awhile, but most of the articles I've found seem to assume I've got some egpu knowhow already.
I found almost no resources for this but it was mostly plug and play.
One thing I can suggest is keep everything same brand. My laptop has an Nvidia gpu built in and I tried using amd gpu without success. Spent about a week on it and tried various combination of drivers and settings. Nvidia just works.
Also Intel gpus require rebar enabled which almost none of the laptops support so I did not really consider them even though they were super attractive because of pricing.
The way I use it is set prime-select to Intel2 which disables built in Nvidia gpu and then I activate external gpu after login by running nvidia-smi as root after login. Then you just launch apps you want to use Nvidia gpu with
Thank you! So it sounds like I just need to find a GPU and enclosure combo that fits my budget (TBD) , and it's like adding any other bit of hardware. I do have an intel-only system currently (integrated Iris XE), so I'll have to dig in on that. Thanks!
So no apps worth mentioning work, and only gaming (which doesn't work on Linux) is benefitted? Sway is dead and most of those other replacements are just worse.
Yeah DOA like I said.
have you seen steam deck sales? linux gaming is mainstream. everything I've tried recently just works.
When would you think sway is dead lol? it has way more commits than i3, same number of contributors, and the last commit was 7 minutes ago. i3 hasn't been touched in months. i3 is dead, contributors have jumped to sway
Wayland is DOA and will never replace Xorg. Deal with it.
I understand some harshness but this statement is just crazy, xorg is already dead feature wise and Wayland is de facto the new protocol, you can say it is not ready but there is no way back.
I don't like the framing in this meme. “Wayland doesn't run on Nvidia” implies that it's a Wayland problem, but it's actually Nvidia that fails to develop a modern, working driver.
That still sounds like a Wayland problem, just not one that they have control of
It is an Nvidia problem. And we need to insist on Nvidia being the problem until they give in. Their lack of wanting to take responsibility for distributing graphics cards on the market by not developing working drivers and not even letting the community fix it by open sourcing their driver is not something we should tolerate anymore. They pissed people enough at this point over the years, with their lack of participation in an driver problem-free environment on Linux, so they should and they will take the blame.
This is happened with Vista, amongst other problems.
Their "dogshit" drivers work great on X and did so back when ATis hardware was both closed source and hot garbage on Linux and they were utter trash all the way from early 2000s to 2014.
Ok. I'm not really interested in how things were in 2008. I'm interested in the here and now, which is where Wayland is widely used and increasingly used by the day, Nvidia's drivers are a mess and AMD's aren't.
Person A: Man these Nvidia drivers keep causing issues
Person B: Umm ackshully Nvidia drivers used to be better than ATI drivers in 2008 ☝️🤓
Nvidia drivers continue to work great under X 2003-2024 for me. I'm sure Nvidia will work well under Wayland long before I bother to switch. The same folks who are always shitting on Nvidia seem to all own AMD hardware and many have spent years lying about Wayland being totally ready in 2015-2022 after they spent years lying about AMD GPU drivers being great in 2008-2013 when both were largely unusable in that time frame. Since few of the haters actually own any Nvidia hardware I presume they get their information from stroking each-others ego on reddit/lemmy/mastodon.
Yeah but X11 is unsuitable for modern computing.
Many do... because they know Nvidia is plagued with issues. Why would they buy hardware they've had/will have issues with?
I had to get rid of my 1080 Ti because of how unusably bad the Linux drivers were. AMD has ran great, out of the box, on X11 and Wayland. Wayland has been great, used it for years with no issues outside of with Nvidia hardware.
Maybe when Nvidia gets their shit together and have drivers that work properly ill give them another go.
Nail on the head.
Until they give in what? What in your fantasies does the open source community of randos have over Nvidia again? Will you withhold your 0.1% of their profits after cost of develoment is considered? If you had paid even the slightest attention you would note the progress in open source drivers supporting newer hardware.
Nvidia has a closed source driver. Wayland tries to support it but Nvidia keeps changing how the driver works every week. So it's impossible to deliver quality with Nvidia shit.
Why are you lying? Large software projects change slowly and stuff like GPU drivers work according to standards and interfaces. The bugs experienced aren't even on the open source software side. The bugs in the general case are largely in the nvidia side and being fixed on that side albeit not briskly.
For sure, but unfortunately, that's still a Wayland problem.
Users don't care whose problem it is. They can trivially log out and log in and select X changing GPU implies throwing away hundreds or thousands of dollars of hardware. Over 80% of discrete GPUs are Nvidia hardware.
Look, the people over at Wayland made a solid protocol, sure. But for all the time and effort they've put into getting it to the state it's in today, it's going to take a long while for all the apps, DEs, and TWMs to be ready. It took so long for the Linux desktop to get to the state it is on X11, which, for all it's flaws, seems to be easier to develop for than Wayland.
Wacom Drivers, Nvidia Drivers, DE-Agnostic screensharing, screenshot, eyedropper tools are all in various states of not working/sort of working/working on wayland. This simply isn't the case with X11. They all just work. That's kind of a big win for X11 over Wayland.
It doesn't matter how light weight and more secure your protocol is if you can't use the tools you need to get the jobs you need done, whatever those jobs are. That is literally what computers are for at the end of the day, not to lord our superiority over others because our choice of tools are somehow better.
Yes Wayland is the future, but to say "Wayland is ready" while also saying "many of the apps for Wayland are not ready" ends up meaning that wayland is NOT ready.
Until the transition between X and Wayland is seamless (no adjusting environment variables), saying we should all just move to Wayland cuz ”is the future" are engaging in the same FOMO tactics that crytpo and AI bros have been doing for years. Fuck that noise.
You are not somehow better because you use Wayland. And yeah yeah, shots fired, down votes incoming. Come at me tech daddy.
You are absolutely right, I use Wayland on KDE cause two different refresh rate monitores but duude, even on amd you have some hassles. It is ok if you change some env variables, not OK for the average Joe.
I'm so confused why other people are having so much trouble, I use two computers with AMD GPUs and one with Intel and I haven't had any problems with wayland on Gnome, Plasma, Sway, or Hyprland in the past like two years. The only environment variable I ever changed was the one to make firefox use wayland before that was the default, but that wasn't at all required for the average user, it works fine under xwayland.
Things like, scrensharing, OBS (recently was patched and now it works), discord, spectacle (is a little unstable), screen locking (only one screen or none of them turn off) and some xwayland games/emulators won't work. All of this in a full amd setup with KDE.
With one Novideo 1660s my KDE panel frozen every 30 minutes.
If you only use linux for development or browsing you should find no problems.
Weird, I use OBS, lock my screen, and play games all the time and have never had any problems on KDE. Maybe I'm just lucky with my GPU choices? I use an RX 570 on one computer and an RX 6650 XT on the other.
haven't had discord or screen locking issues and I have plenty of monitors. haven't run into any game issues either, but I do preemptively run older stuff in gamescope which tends to avoid a lot of issues
This is a great advice, I'm having issues with alt tabbing with dota, I should try gamescope as well.
Brazilian detected
Also, I use two monitors with different refresh rates on Mint / Cinnamon / Xorg and it's more than fine. I think you only need Wayland for variable refresh rate. But two static refresh rates seem to work just fine on X.
Damn, my camouflage didn't work.
They are actually running in different refresh rates? The default is to cap the better monitor in the lower refresh rate. If I accept that it is fine to me as well. If I try to force different refresh rates on kwin , my games run with so much tearing, even with vsync on.
I honestly wouldn't know. One is a 60 Hz TV and the other a 75 Hz office monitor. My son loves to play steam games on the monitor. The graphic configuration tool says the monitors are at that frequency and I can see other frequencies they could operate.
I don't know how to check the actual refresh rate though.
No but if you can't tell they are both working at the same rate it must work well enough for you not to care.
GTK, Qt, Firefoxes XUL, Electron (Chromium), Iced, and more support Wayland. You dont develop apps for Wayland, you develop them with a GUI toolkit.
Fair enough. All I know is to get something as simple and necessary to my workflow as using KeePassXC, I had to adjust a few QT flags in my environment variables. No big deal as I actually enjoy configuring my system, but it's in my opinion Wayland will be "ready" when this sort of under the hood tweaking won't be necessary by the user.
Here, I'll pose a simple question that kind of gets at the heart of what I'm talking about. Libreoffice works great on Wayland right? Good, fantastic, kudos to Libreoffice, kudos to Wayland. Now, name me a 2nd office suite that works on Wayland. Just one. This is a genuine question and despite my decent google fu, I can't find a one. I got Open Office to open on Wayland, but it doesn't recognize the entire suite.
Now, this may seem like an unfair argument to make, as there were never many office suites available on Linux to begin with. And there's always been people in the Linux community who will call for more uniformity, but I, like many others, love Linux for it's extreme customizability (amongst other reasons). Wayland severely cuts down on my choices of what TWMs I can use, what DEs are available, and various widely used productivity tools like office suites.
The amount of knots Wayland enthusiasts tie themselves up in to say "but if you just configure this flag, if you just run this through xwayland/game scope, if you just don't use nvidia, then wayland is ready" is just pointing to the fact that it's straight up not.
And that's not the fault of any one entity. Writing a protocol like Wayland is a massive endeavor and is needed. But developers across the board who want to provide support for Linux, are now scrambling to rewrite parts of their applications to conform to this new protocol because yes, they see the writing on the wall (especially with the latest lines in the sand drawn by Red Hat). But isn't the fact that their scrambling to get this accomplished, and convert their apps to Wayland, an indicator that maybe, just maybe, that Wayland as a daily driver for, if not the majority, at least a reasonable part of the Linux community, not ready?
I'm not saying Wayland isn't the future. What I'm saying is until discussions like these are the outlier, not the norm, Wayland isn't ready.
the calligra suite works fine too. open office is basically dead and replaced by libreoffice. I don't know if any development is still happening. I can't name another office suite Wayland or otherwise though
xwayland does just work though. I don't even know how to explicitly run something under it
explicit flags are more of a problem, but they're going away slowly, and for the most part people can just let things run under xwayland instead of dealing with flags. there are some apps that just won't work, but for the most part it's not a widespread issue in my experience
.Uhm...
What did you need to set for KeepassXC? The flathub version and fedora RPM just work.
You can modify flatpak permissions easily in KDE or using Flatseal though, to remove a lot and especially restrict keepassXC to only readwrite one directory.
Uhm, what other Office Suite is there on Linux?
I have no idea why Wayland should cut down your choices. Use XOrg if you want, nobody stopping you, it is simply unmaintained for years pretty much.
There are TWMs for Wayland and they are said to work (have a look at wayblue), I use KDE and tried GNOME and both work. Use any weird old TWM through rootful XWayland if you really want to. This is not waylands problem, X.org is old spaghetticode that nobody wanted to maintain, and there still is no rise in contributions even with all those self-entitled Linux Experts complaining about their weird old nieche Desktop being abandoned.
Nearly (?) all development is done for XWayland, which is normally used in rootless mode, but you can use it rootfull too, and run a complete XOrg Window manager on a minimalist Wayland compositor. Brody Robertson made a video about that.
XWayland is automatically used for all Apps without Wayland support. I never used Gamescope but suppose this is nice, but I dont care about Gaming as I wasted way too much time of my life there. If you want to game, use uBlue Bazzite and call it a day. Its a modern Distro, based on Fedora, using Wayland, made for steamdecks and also PCs.
I never set a single flag for anything and have no idea how Wayland works, but I used it since at least 1½ years.
Wayland has nothing to do with NVIDIA. It was not ready when it "came out" so people where not giving it a chance for obvious reasons. They preferred to use extremely insecure and unmaintained but working Display management.
Now the pressure finally rises, NVIDIA already shipped a lot of updates for Wayland, but in the end it is their fault and you may not want to use hardware from a company that doesnt give a sh*t about FOSS on Linux. I have no idea why people would want to do that? There is literally the high likeliness of backdoors in your damn GPU driver, allowing the green team to see everything you do.
Why use Linux if you entire Graphics are using a proprietary black box?
Wayland is ready. I have no idea of developing Apps, but I suppose just using a good Toolkit is the start. If you are lazy just use Electron, but Qt works just as well cross-platform, if you are fancy use Slint. We can argue if developing apps for Linux is ready.
I think there are bigger problems like good easy IDEs (only GNOME has one) for Linux, or the packaging issue that is fixed by Flathub. Wayland is just a change.
I maintain a repo with a list of recommended, modern software
I have tested a lot of apps, and those are the best. Keep your system secure with modern apps following best practices, using portals, that are Wayland native.
And to be honest, people can just use old Software through XWayland forever. They often dont even need to change.
Projects like Bluerecorder are nice and very alpha on Wayland, here I agree they are struggling to make it work but it works. Using OBS for minimalist screen recording is huge bloat.
A respectable rebuttal. Nicely done. Here are some of my responses.
I prefer my distro's repos whenever possible. But good to know.
But it works on X. I like using alternatives to the big players in any and all tech spaces. That's why I use Open Office. That's why I want an alternative office suite that works on Wayland to actually compete with Libreoffice(that isn't the online office suites, etc. We appear to be in agreement on that one). But good point, not a Wayland problem. I'll acquiesce to you on that one.
I'm not arguing to use Xorg per se, though I can see my arguments being interpreted that way. I'm arguing that the switch to Wayland is more trouble than it's worth right now for some people, and to say Wayland is ready for all is disingenuous, and to somehow look down on those who simply want to keep using X is a shitty thing to do.
No argument that X is abandoned, no argument it's spaghetti code. No argument that Wayland is the future. I'm just saying it's not quite the present either. Diversity within the Linux community is a good thing dude. Customizable work flows are awesome for everybody, that's one of the things that makes Linux so much better than the alternatives. I can't wait for Wayland to get to the point where it has that many weird possible workflows going on the way X does right now. That way we can have all the security and no screen tearing you want, with the insane amount of customization options I want.
Personally I want BSPWM and sxhkd on Wayland for the same low RAM cost. River is close, and I'm hoping it gets there, but unless I know c, zig, or rust, I'm not going to be able to customize it to the way I have BSPWM out of the box. Is this Wayland's problem? Hell no! But if I have all I want on X, why switch?
I love Brodie's channel, and that was a great episode! That said, the fact that so much backporting has to be done through xwayland is an unfortunate necessity. If everything just works on X, and I still need a translation layer on top of Wayland to use what already just works, then why not just wait until everything just works on Wayland? Or just use both?
I know you're not saying this, but a lot of the sentiment online seems to be ”stop using X entirely now! Wayland is the future because everybody says so. You use Nvidia? Stop! Your favorite app doesn't work on Wayland? Just use xwayland!" The sentiment is so emphatic, it fails to acknowledge that some entire workflows have been built up around these older applications where no security breaches were encountered, little to no screen tearing was even noticed, and basically no problems occurred. Why bash on these people with this noise when at the end of the day, we just want to get shit done on our computers efficiently, and if X gets us there quicker, and Wayland doesn't, then why switch right now? Especially considering the Wayland enthusiasts have to argue so hard to convince me it all just works when it clearly works on YOUR machine, and hasn't for at least me and also a good number of users? Meanwhile nobody's arguing that despite X's flaws...everything pretty much has worked for a while now.
I actually have little to say on the state of Gaming on Wayland. I have played Cyberpunk on Steam with proprietary Nvidia drivers on Wayland and it looks okay. Once Nvidia fixes the stuttering issues that hit in 545, I'll have no complaints on that. But I only play a single game, so I can't speak to that too much (others have pointed out in this very chat better insights in this regard).
That's good dude. I genuinely look forward to the day when this is the norm.
Are you going to also criticize Linux users who then use any proprietary software? Is your pure FOSS system running GNU boot and Parabola Linux? I'm not going to defend nvidia the company, but their users who want support on Linux shouldn't be told to just chuck their old cards and go AMD. There are many good reasons why they can't/won't do that, and it's not just gaming or cost. They want CUDA support for AI and also:
Because I bought one before I knew about the Linux ecosystem and the issues with Nvidia and don't want to contribute to Ewaste if I can help it. Yes I can afford an AMD GPU, and one day, when my Nvidia GPU craps out, I'll buy one, but why spend the money, time, and effort to replace a perfectly working GPU solely for Wayland support? You listed some good reasons why, it's just not enough for me personally and probably for others as well.
I'm sorry, you're adamant that Wayland is ready, but are willing to argue if developing apps for Linux is ready? This seems counterintuitive. Bur yeah, intuititons are often wrong, care to elucidate on why Wayland is somehow ready but app development might not be?
This seems like a Linux problem and not an X or Wayland problem. But hey, the Libreoffice argument I made was based on this same unrelated logic, so I'll digress.
Again, I'm not arguing that Wayland isn't the future. What I'm saying is that, even now, it's not ready yet. It's closer than ever and there's obviously a big push to have Wayland everywhere, so it's coming one way or another.
Thanks. I'll check this out later.
Also will have to check this out, thanks.
This is not needed when using the flatpak. And even if the native package falls back to xwayland for whatever reason, maybe that is their choice? There is no problem here.
Wtf haha, you know Openoffice is the original? Bought by Oracle, abandoned, everyone was pissed and renamed the project to Libreoffice. Openoffice is dead, it is abandonware and that it exists in repos and is still used today is insane.
Libreoffice is Openoffice, but with updates.
No we dont need an alternative always. We dont need 6 audio recorders, we need 1 good one that does everything right, is fast, secure and usable.
What means look down? There are people not updating their systems, using outdated and insecure stuff but in the typical old people manner try to convince them this is the way. If people refuse to go with the actual development and accept that things will change, this is a huge burden on Developers that are already struggling to get an agreement among people that all agree things need to change.
Nobody is looking down, it is just annoying trying to hold on old crap that made Linux insecure and broken. Flatpak too, Flatpak has the good possibility to end 3rd party packaging for a lot of stuff. This means official packages, less packaging efford and more free time.
Nvidia sucks, and it is their job to fix Linux.
Legacy apps work normally through XWayland, most of the time. Multi window stuff is being worked on right now, in a well designed way instead of "apps do what they want" chaos like in x11.
This is free software. People want to use outdated stuff that nobody maintains. If they dont maintain it, they have to deal with what the developers want to do and what not. This is not a paid product, Devs dont owe anyone anything. "Using Linux" is not helping them.
Things will break. And the question is, do you trust every app so much that it can do all the stuff it can on Xorg?
Nobody stopping anyone from staying with Xorg. It is simply not maintained anymore, and they should know they are using dying software that will break. For me XOrg didnt work better than Wayland, I think it had more errors in a lot of Laptop stuff like scaling, fonts, etc.
If you use modern software packaging you may see that these things are already there. Flatpak has this, easily.
Its a state in between so Electron apps may not use Wayland yet, some apps may simply not work, some may use Xwayland for no reason. But its just a few switches and testing, or in most cases the user could not do anything and it would work somehow.
I simply want to stress how absurd it is. I know even Coreboot is mostly blobs, and Linux-libre doesnt run anywhere. I am on a Thinkpad... I had to not use a kernel hardening parameter because my BIOS sucks.
But really, using a proprietary driver is not like "yeah it is not very cool but works", this is literally the biggest weakness in your entire system. You can for sure sell that card to someone, and I am not telling you I dont hate E-waste and artificial obsolescence through bad Software.
I really love the effords of Coreboot, OpenWRT, Linux on Macs, Nuveau etc. But its a lot of work.
I hope Intel produces some cuda alternative soon, they care about FOSS afaik.
Nearly nobody will write an app for wayland, but in a Toolkit that supports Wayland. So IDEs need to improve for Linux to improve, to stop people from doing lazy stuff like Electron. If people use nieche toolkits like those Go Apps do, I just say goodbye and use an alternative (alternativeto.net).
Fantastic breakdown and rebuttal. I concede on all points save one. But before I nit pick a bit a couple things.
One is thank you so much for tsking the time to rebuke me with such detail and finesse. I enjoy prodding people on these things because I find back and forths like this more engaging and informative when a stance is taken rather than just Q & A. I know it must bave taken you a bit of time to write up thede answers, so thank you.
Secondly, I just wanted to commend you on totally eviscerating me on the Only Office bit. i had forgotten on that point and hadn't taken the simple step of searching beforehand. It was a poorly made point and I sincerely apologize for posing that weak argument. Yeah yeah, you're probably thinking "the entire argument was weak". And I'll not try to convince you otherwise (I'd be unlikely to succeed anyways, right?).
Now, my only point of contention:
Now, my only contention here is that competition, true competition, is good. I'd say you always need at least 2 major nearly equal players in any of these fields. I don't want there to be 1 Linux distro, I don't want there to be 1 Office Suite, I don't want there to be 1 package manager, and hell, I don't want there to be 1 display protocol (and for that I am very happy wayland exists for that reason alone).
Competition over best implementations is good, and more selfishly for me in particular, more choice is good. You can argue that those choices can stifle innovation as it divides the talent base over possibly trivial minutiae of implementation (or just create a poor implementation outright), but ultimately what drove me to Linux was not my admiration for it being secure or light weight, but rather it is the availability of the many choices available.
I'd rather not see that wrangling up of the diversity that exists within the Linux ecosystem go away in the interest of conformity to a singular best practice. With all the consequences that entails.
You are welcome, it took some time and I actually accidentally swiped back and deleted like 6 paragraphs but hey.
I dont know... KDE is using Qt, GNOME is using GTK. KDE breaks all the time, GTK attracts many developers of small software with nearly no customizability, but that works.
KDE apps are still looking a bit dated but refuse to follow the "padding everywhere" BS that GNOME, Windows 11, MacOS etc use.
I dont know what the word "competition" means in FOSS. These are not companies serving customers, fighting for marketshare. These are just products by and for the community. It sucks that KDE does all the cool stuff, but is inherently memory unsafe as f*ck, GNOME not even having the most basic features but being very stable, and nobody caring about Cosmic really.
Wlroots is nice, and it would be really cool if all projects could just use that. Wlroots is not complete like KWin.
Actually, XOrg, Linux, GNU, there are so many projects that just dont have an alternative and that helped to create products that all work but have a different look and feel. Under the hood they where all just fancy XOrg.
I think there are problems with monopole projects that are bloated and eat up more and more subprojects. This makes 0% sense and should not be done.
The Linux kernel is a mess. It is full of random vendor blobs for XYZ hardware, poorly written code (according to Jeremy Soller) and everything on every machine.
Look at windows. It kinda "feels weird" to have those branded "AMD Radeon Driver®" display in the task manager. But the fact that they show up, nobody gets that. They are seperate processes in the equivalent to Linux userspace. You can restrict them, give them permissions etc.
It "just works" but its horrible. Any random code by any weird manifacturer just gets thrown into the Kernel, because Distros can't unite on how userspace is supposed to look like. So instead of fixing that problem and putting all drivers into userspace so users can just use what they actually need and just remove the rest, we have this huge and not even FOSS blob that runs everywhere.
I think I want to switch from Fedora Kinoite to something like NixOS, as I think building the kernel for your actually used hardware, removing everything else, is essential for security.
The next project is systemd, which works well, is somewhat nice to manage (I still find it very confusing to create services but I guess this is nice?) But it is pretty horrible.
It is a huge binary, a single one, always running. You would need to fork it and remove and replace stuff to not break it. It is a de facto standard and makes no sense, why would you
Their Github issues are insane, I cant imagine anyone even wants to look at 1k open issues. This would simply not be the case if it was split up. Could still be used as a bundle, but if (like with rust rewrites of GNU core utils, like uutils) people would rewrite parts, they could test them seperately and slowly move the project to Rust for example.
So yeah, monopole projects suck if they are not modular. Desktops should work on the same things though, to make them work well. GNOME is supposedly very specific about mutter so nobody wants to use it, but KDE could possibly switch to wlroots if it has feature parity with Kwin and that would really reduce useless duplication of work.
You dont need competition, just talk to people in the same project, everyone has different goals.
Weird. The link is bazzite.gg
I think it may be a Lemmy 'caching' issue (has to be cached at least once kind of thing, as someone explained to me once). I'm not using an app. but the https://lemmy.world/ web site (on Firefox/Linux).Edit: This link works. This link does not.
Nvidia had good working support from 2003-2024. From 2003-2014 ATi/AMD GPU support on Linux was hot garbage and at first not even open source, from 2014-2016 it was decidedly inferior, and from 2017 on it was supposedly decent. I say supposedly because I'm still a little paranoid about buying that shit because between 2006-2014 AMD fanboys were just steady continually lying their asses off about AMD cards not being steaming piles of runny shit on Linux. The only people less honest than Nvidia fanboys its a SOBs who have been telling us Wayland was ready for prime time for the last 9 years. Hey it might even be true now but who believes liars?
I like nvidias tooling and features. Gaming on X works well. Screen sharing works well. High DPI works well. Mixed DPI works well. i3wm works well. Everything has continually worked well for 21 years.
Weird, i feel like I should be getting more errors with how the comment section is making wayland sound, but on my mac 2019 it was honestly plug n play even for sunshine game stream (and supports waydroid which brought me over)
Almost there
Digimend works flawlessly. Also if you have a tablet you should be aware that you're not exactly a typical user. Blender runs natively under wayland, btw,
Much of the griping you hear right now is because wayland got into a state where it does do everything the average user would ask for so the switchover is happening for real, meanwhile tons of projects have ignored the writing on the wall for a literal decade and invested zero effort so far and now are caught with their pants down.
My migration looked like this: About a year ago or so I read some wayland article, wondered for a brief second, logged out of my session, said "ah!" and selected "Plasma (wayland)" from the dropdown: NixOS installs both flavours when you tell it to give you KDE. Tried it out, found nothing wrong with it, grumbled a bit because it wasn't the default session, found the config option to make it default, done.
Ever since then alt-tabbing from proton games is way better, mpv does a much better job at actually using VRR, the only problem I ever had with the setup is mouse cursor changing when hovering over firefox because dconf was missing and it couldn't read the gtk theme that KDE sets to make everything look coherent. That's literally it.
Solid. I do authentically look forward to Wayland working out of the box for as many use cases as X does right now.
Thanks for the tidbit about tablets I actually fo uee a wacom, so this is probably not what I'm looking for. Sway has a weird workaround specific to their wm, hopefully river can port that over. Otherwise there seems to be other solutions, but I have yet to install/configure them.
Wayland runs some games I play much better. It does though for some reason after a while start to lag out with cpu usage off the charts. I found I don't have that issue with xorg. I have amd, and some games with wayland will after a fresh restart have terrible frame rates but seems like five to ten minutes later they come back and it's fine. (issue doesn't happen in xorg) Depending on what game I'm playing or what I'm doing, depends on if run wayland or xorg. It's as simple as logging out to change so it's no big deal for me.
I use xfce, I have nvidia card, I sometimes capture a video of my screen and I regularly share my screen. Didn't even try.
I'll use Xorg until its deprecated or Wayland offers me some benefit other than "is new and shiny and the internet told me is cool"
I also became a bit sceptical about it with so many open source projects and basic functionality not supporting it yet after sooo many years of "Wayland is here"... so yeah, I'll wait until someone gets xorg from my dead cold hands 😁
also I don't get how aggressive people get about what other people have in their desktop, dude let me live my linux life alone 🤷♂️
Wayland has both screen capture and screen sharing.
We have XWaylandVideoBridge for X11 only applications.
Fair enough. I used XFCE for 15 years and decided to give Hyprland a go. Still some rough edges, and some shockingly basic things are still being figured out (should multiple windows from the same process be able to set different icons, and windows being able to set--or even hint--where they want to go), but overall I've had basically zero issues, and I'm enjoying it enough that I made the change permanent. Screen share and streaming work fine. I wouldn't call the overall functionality mature, but it's perfectly workable. Unless, you know...Nvidia. I've heard it's gotten a bit better lately, but I wouldn't have switched if I hadn't gone AMD for my new GPU.
Wayland works with NVIDIA cards though.
When they added vrr support for wayland, I can't play games anymore without continuous screen tearing and duplicate images. I guess they didn't test gsync certified monitors on their own Wayland drivers. Until that and the taskbar on kde gets fixed I'll be waiting. Kde taskbar freezes without warning on Wayland with Nvidia.
Maybe the open source drivers will soothe my woes when they're ready.
Every 5 minutes the graphical stack crashed for me.
My Desktop runs wayland on nvidia.... so?!
Wayland runs on Nvidia lol
Yes, at first glance..crashes regularly for me after a few hours...
I suppose it has to do with my general kde setup and many tweaks and adjustments over the years..maybe i should wipe everything and give it a fresh try..
This doesn't imply it doesn't in fact crash. Different distros/versions are pretty far apart in software versions and experiences.
Not really
Not on old cards like mine, the only DE that I manage to open so far was GNOME and it runs a bit slow, just slow enough to force me back to xorg.
One day I will have a amd card, but I can't afford one right now.
(I have a GT 635)
I just set up a new system with a 4080 - things didn't really work under Wayland:
Then I switched to X11, and everything has been running smoothly since.
It actually runs and feels smoother for me in a 144hz display and 2016 NVDIA card. Of course it still has its glitches and strange things happening from time to time, while with Xorg it "just works". I'd say it's still in alpha stage for Nvidia users, which require some tweaking and extra env variables to properly work; and in beta stage for everyone else
Screen sharing is still a pain in my experience. I'm a tiling window manager guy. I used i3 for years. Switched to sway, but have issues because xdg-desktop-portal-wlr can't do application sharing, only entire screen sharing. Well I have a ultra ultra wide screen, so people can't see shit on normal monitors when I try to share my screen. So at work, where I regularly have video conferences, I'm constantly changing my screen resolution so that I can screen share something that looks OK to others, but 1980x1024 looks ridiculous on my end on my ultrawide.
Hyperland can share applications and even regions, which is awesome, and I tested it successfully on my home gentoo system, but it only worked on Firefox. Didn't work for my jitsi electron app and didn't work in qutebrowser. And hyperland isn't easily installable on Ubuntu which is what I run for work because my work computer needs to just werk (gentoo is probably even more stable but I can't mess with long complie upgrades at work and some corporate software is only available as .debs)
So yea my life would honestly be easier if I just stuck with i3 everywhere but I'm stubbornly trying to use Wayland because I know it's the future but don't kid yourselves, it is a pain in the ass
What I don't like about Wayland is that many things are specific to individual DEs. Like global shortcuts or taking screenshots. In my app I have two different solutions for taking screenshots in GNOME and KDE using XDG portals. It causes fragmentation.
o wow didn't know this. such horrible design decision! So if I understood correctly ALL the apps that want to screenshot need to write independent code for each desktop environment??? I was just mostly ignoring Wayland until becoming mature, but now I actively dislike it with passion.
So, if this is true and I understand correctly, it means that if I chose to use Xfce (as I do), I'll have to hope really hard that zoom, skype, slack, discord... decide to provide support for not only linux,.... but XFCE or give up and abandon XFCE? yeah f*** Wayland, they really didn't think about the open source community when designing their solution. I don't wat to even think of people that use other smaller desktop managers...
I mean, screen sharing is basic functionality these days, in the interview for my current job I needed to use.. I think it was teams. Is not even something you can chose, is bad enough to be exclusive linux user as it is, always wondering if in such cases something will not work.
Honestly, long live Xorg. if deprecated and I have to switch to gnome/kde or lose functionality I might as well switch to windows after 20 something years of not using it.
Screen sharing is different thing, there is no fragmentation there.
But in order to take screenshot I had to write different code:
For Gnome.
For KDE. It also requires special line in desktop file for security reasons.
For all other DEs.
Global shortcuts are even worse. It also DE specific and users have to manually register them in DE settings. In order for your application to support this, it should export such functions via the Dbus interface. And all this incompatible with Windows (my app is cross-platform), so I had to provide in-app interface for global shortcuts too that works for Windows and X11 users.
Oh no. Oh no. Way to shoot ourselves in the foot, Wayland.
What prevents you from using org.freedesktop.portal.Screenshot with GNOME and KDE as well? They both support taking screenshots using that method.
Unfortunately, you on GNOME and KDE you don't have
org.freedesktop.portal.Screenshotmethod in/org/freedesktop/portal/desktop.Not trying to be a menace, but I just tried it out using xdg-portal-test-kde and the screenshot portal definitely works on KDE Plasma 5.27.10. If you are experiencing issues with that, please create a bug report for xdg-desktop-portal-kde so it can be fixed.
Strange, doesn't work for me, I also run 5.27.10. Will take a look, thanks!
Screen sharing is fine, handled by Pipewire. OBS is adding (has added?) streaming through Pipewire too. And I've had no issues getting screenshots using grim, which isn't tied to a specific compositor. Not everything is copacetic, but the things you're talking about are mostly non-issues these days.
Great name, btw
I miss Firefox remembering where its windows were when it restarts >_>
It’s such a small thing, but it’s the one I encounter most.
This debate is so fucking stupid. X. Is. Dead.
Install Wayland, file bug reports, help everyone move into the future.
X is dead
Looks like I'm quitting my job because Wayland is the future asshat. How about I just run both X and Wayland on my computer, file bug reports on what doesn't work with Wayland, and continue to use X until they fix it or you pull your head out of your own ass? Whichever comes first.
Touch a nerve? How about you chill the fuck out.
Lol. Last time I checked you were the one shouting into the abyss that X is dead. Did the OP's meme get under your skin so bad you had to go on a caps lock tirade about how sick you were of hearing this argument and X is dead, etc?
If your criticism had added even one iota of thought to the conversation backing up your opinion, I would have just scrolled on by. There is a plethora of easily accessible data for you to choose from to back up your argument. You could have cherry picked ANY argument you wanted about why Wayland is the future from google and just posted that instead? That seriously would have shown more respect to the people who want to have an honest discussion on the topic.
But no, instead you took the time to basically call everyone who took the time to post here stupid rather than just, y'know, move the fuck on? So yeah, I took some time out of my day to call you out for what you are, an asshat.
Now, are you gonna chill the fuck out, take your ball, and go home? Or do you have some actually constructive criticism to contribute to the conversation? Cuz seems to me outside of throwing another tantrum, those are your only two options.
No.
Make me.
Would be a shame if your distro were to stop shipping X11...
It's Linux. If they switch before all my use cases are working as good as or better than X, I'll just hop to the inevitable fork.
Most people want to do things not file bug reports and wait months for them to be addressed. X gets security updates as needed and will get such for literally years. X is dead like rock not dead like disco.
Unfortunately I just want to be able to work though and Wayland keeps hanging and crashing without producing any relevant logging, despite the fact I'm working on an AMD iGPU.
In the end Wayland and X are tools, if a tool doesn't fit the job it gets replaced. I don't care X is dead, at least it works for me. Probably not the most popular thing to tell around here, but it's what it is.
Bro, I do file bug reports and even fix things from time to time, Wayland is so broken for me I can’t work. Also, when bug reports are met with “it’s nvidia’s fault” and hostility towards the submitter, that further turns me off from participating.
Extreme shortage of desktop environments that support Wayland. I don't want to use either Gnome or KDE, I'm currently using LXQt with i3wm.
If you like i3, sway is a drop in replacement for it that uses wayland. I'm not sure if you could make LXQt work with it but it's worth a shot
You cannot, no desktop environment except Gnome and KDE has Wayland support beyond experimental status.
If I was content with running no desktop environment at all, I could already do that on Xorg.
IT IS NOT lmao, sway even complains that my i3 keybinds are wrong, those same keybinds work perfectly on i3.
Isn't sway an decent alternative to i3?
Hyprland is pretty sweet, to be honest.
For like half a second my brain thought this was a meme comparing the fictional megacorps Zorg Industries from "The Fifth Element" and the Weyland-Yutani Corporation from the "Alien" franchise.
It's not?
Most things would be solved if mainteners EVER updated their app's electron version or stopped doing custom things with it and just let electron read $XDG_CONFIG_HOME/electron-flags.conf
wouldnt be so sure. My AMD 780m iGPU has all sorts of weird issues on wayland atm. drivers are hella immature atm
So does my 6600 on manjaro kde
Yeah lots of reports of RDNA graphics jank in the amdgpu DRM issue tracker. Its a shame because the Steamdeck is the exact same architecture and has absolutely rock solid drivers, but there's really poor testing outside of valve for drivers on linux
Wayland runs on Nvidia though
The situation is rapidly getting better, and I’m daily driving Fedora 38 with 3060Ti using the RPMFusion Nvidia driver and Gnome+Wayland. Everything (and I do mean everything) I’ve tried has all its basic functionality at baseline. Xwayland is a thing and it covers for not having true Wayland support in alot of cases. Not like there aren’t bugs and QOL issues, but from what I’ve seen Nvidia is engaged and working to fix them. We should probably try to critique Nvidia/Wayland based on specific issues now, instead of broad brush “Nvidia/Wayland bad” rhetoric…
I see people having a good to great experience with NVIDIA on Wayland. I lack that ability, I can never get my PC to run well on Wayland. (using the propriety drivers) hoping the new GSP firmware and the improvements to MESA-Nouveau + NVK fixes my issues. even if their are teething pains. because of how unusable it currently just is for me. course if I had the money, the easiest fix to make Linux usable for me is to buy a AMD GPU. FYI, I have a 2070Super. It is a consistently bad experience on it, with the NVIDIA propriety drivers.
Using Prime Render offloading and an AMD APU also works really well with wayland. Really happy with my Ryzen 5 5600G + Nvidia GPU setup.
Wayland doesn't like my ivy bridge no gpu lil guy, so x11 best for me
Huh weird, i tried two distros and DE's, arcolinux hyprland and kde on endeavor and both ran significantly slower, most noticebly on games (or a game, but i think that game should work on Wayland?) But even out of videogames the sistem still didn't felt that smooth
My processor is an i5 3470, i have some difficulties knowing if it should work like this or not, cuz there's not much info bout such processor running wayland
I have a weird setup, which is my fault I guess, but it results in me having two keyboards with different languages. And I frequently switch between them in my workflow, so it can be super annoying to manually switch the language every time.
On X I use a combination of two tools to automatically set the language per keyboard, which works even when hotplugging.
On wayland I found no alternative so far, but if you have any ideas, please let me know.
I don't know about other compositors, but on Hyprland and Sway you can configure things per device (in the config file). I'd give an example here but I'm on my phone right now.
I have a laptop and a desktop with slightly different keyboard layouts, and both machines share the same config file.
Not sure why you have a tool to "set the language", what would happen if you tried to use both keyboards at once?
I honestly don't recall the details and can't check right now. It's been working like that for years.
I remember the main issues I was having were around yubikey, my usb hub which can switch between two pc's and hotplugging. So I had to use a second tool which did something on any device plugin.
I think using both keyboards at once worked fine. I didn't mean system keyboard language.
Not a real solution, but if you were set on using Wayland you could get a qmk keyboard and change the layout in firmware
Does
ssh -Xwork with Wayland (either as the sender, receiver, or both) yet?No. But there is Waypipe.
I managed to use Waypipe to open a GUI programa unde another user in the same Wayland display (actually someone else did a script for it, it's in my profile history), so I guess it is possible to forward it with Waypipe remotely
Sometimes apps just don't work properly in Wayland, I have two development VMs with Ubuntu, and in both cases I had to switch to X11 because of UI issues with Wayland and eclipse plugins or crashes when I closed a terminal window.
On the other hand I use Wayland on my own desktop and have not seen any problems.
xrandr. afaik, there's no (standard) way to set display resolution from the command line in wayland. also, there's no equivalent of xkill, so in order to kill an unresponsive gui app, you have to grep for its pid in
ps, which can get a bit tedious and annoying, especially for programs which spawn multiple processes.You're gonna be happy about cosmic-randr
Yeah, I just ran into this recently. I honestly wouldn't care if there was a way to set the resolution and refresh rate to what my monitor actually is in a GUI somewhere, but gnome thinks my monitor only runs at either 24 or 23hz. Frusterating.
nothing puts the fear of god into me like reinstalling nvidia drivers
really? like $install_command nvidia...very scary
this is someone that's never dealt with drivers for optimus lol, which I'm pretty sure is the main reason people hate nvidia on linux so much
I have it was boringly normal
5 years ago it was not a single command anywhere as far as I know. historic arch link since the history button was easy to find, but I think the process was similar elsewhere: https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=NVIDIA_Optimus&oldid=523777
You misremember. Back in 2010 the command was optirun. Although more than one solution exists under the hood user friendly distros (not arch) generally had you right click on the game in your menu and select something like run with nvidia. Throughout the last like 14 years the 2 dominant things were optirun foo and prime-run foo
"yo why my screen green"
its the nvidia experience
"pacman -S nvidia"
Or preferably nvidia-tkg but that needs a git clone first
Sway can't set my 3 displays as extended like I can with i3 with xorg.
Also I recently wanted to try to record on OBS with sway to rule out an issue that I have with my AMD card with colors, and I wasn't able to get OBS to work, installed xdg-desktop-portal-wlr, set the XDG_CURRENT_DESKTOP=sway environment variable and didn't work.
Also for some reason my xfce4 apps are ignoring my xdg base dir variables (I have config and cache inside ~/.local) when using either sway or hyprland and that results in issues with my theming and the creation of the .config and .cache dirs in home again, what is weird is that it only happens with the xfce apps.
EDIT: I was able to test OBS on hyprland instead of sway and the issue with the colors is still present even on wayland.
Using a 3060 on Wayland, Ubuntu LTS. Some performance issues here and there, big problem I discovered is zoom screen sharing pretty much not working.
I login with my x session when I know I'll need to present something.
XWayland Video Bridge?
Thanks, though it's not a big enough problem that I worry about it. My couple of games still work fine in either environment.
I look forward to when all of these getting pains are mitigated by time.
SSH tunneling
All work in progress, I know, but at the moment none of them work as good as in Xorg.
Oh god, this bothers me so much. I have 4 screens and rearranging everything after a startup takes like 5 minutes. Why isnt this a thing in Wayland?
I have an nvidia card and run Wayland with KDE. Other than some bugs and crashes, no other complains
But all the ppl complain about is bugs and crashes
They're minor enough for me not to care. Also I'm hoping with the plasma 6 most of them get fixed. It should release early February
I got it, Im also hyped with plasma 6 for the same reason
An easy way to share my screen
How?? There are so many tools for that now, I can even do it in teams
My work uses slack. The screenshare doesn't work with Wayland. Steam link/remote play doesn't work with a Wayland host (at least it hasn't every time i have tried it). For my gaming pc i only switch to X when i want to use the steam link and use Wayland the other 99.99% of the time because in general it is better. For work i exclusively run X. I started with Wayland, but then there were several occasions where i had to logout then login again switching to X just so i could share my screen which was a massive pain. I love Wayland, but i can totally understand people not wanting to switch until the tools they are used to (or are required to use) work properly under Wayland.
XWaylandVideoBridge should work for slack.
Uhm, xdg-desktop-portal? https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/XDG_Desktop_Portal
Good news: Discord just updated their Electron version.
Wait what, really? Has hell actually frozen over now?!
OBS?
I couldn't get OBS working on OpenSuse with Wayland. Works on x11.
Huh, works flawlessly for me on NixOS. Have you made sure that you're using Pipewire and have the correct xdg-desktop-portal?
This is great an all but the way to "get it working" in X is just install it and it works.
Mine works okay on Debian 12 plasma. It was a little work to get it to not require root. The flat pack worked out of the box but then plugins became an issue so I went back and screwed with permissions till I got it working.
I can't complain, installed Fedora 39 Kinoite and everything is working great. The only thing I have noticed is that drag and drop from dolphin into some flatpak applications is not working; But that is pretty much it and I am not even sure if Wayland is causing this. This is honestly the most usable Linux has ever been for me.
Something wayland lacks but Xorg has?
Basic functionality. Anyone that actually thinks Wayland is ready either doesn't use it or is just straight coping. Maybe it'll get there, but... honestly, probably not.
Come back to me when I don't need to treat wayland like a bethesda game and install a bunch of mods, plugins, packages, and do a bunch of other crap just to get basic functionality.
I've used Wayland pretty much exclusively for about 2 years. The only problem I've had is discord screensharing not working, but I just use OBS' virtual webcam for that anyway because screensharing always crashed discord for me on X11 anyway.
Heya could you share how you do this trick to screen share ? Would it work on MS Teams?
I think all you need to install is OBS studio and v4l2loopback both of which your distribution probably has packages for. Then you just make a scene, add either the "Screen Capture (PipeWire)" or "Window Capture (PipeWire)" sources to it and click the "Start Virtual Camera" button. Anything that supports a webcam will just see it as another camera on your computer you can use.
I was in the same camp one year ago. I sometimes still use it due to Synergy not working otherwise.
It's a common occurrence in X11 that I get a full screen "Oops something broke. [Log out]"-screen, except you cannot log out because the screen doesn't register any inputs.
So, these days: Wayland just works, and X11 (except for some specific software) causes problems. But, I aslo use AMD GPU.
So, what in particular is not ready with Wayland? I hated it two years ago. Now, I have little reason to.
screen recording/sharing, automation, it's inherant fragmentation because it decided that basic window server functionality should be implemented on the DE, basically every driver but a super small subset of drivers for devices the devs care about which do not include nvidia drivers which are a huge portion of the userbase, the absolutely ridiculous architectural choices that intentionally blocks basic functionality, and furthermore causes a crash to completely freeze your computer which forces restart, a complete failure to understand standard monitor EDID, and a refusal to allow you to set them yourself (to this day my monitor, a bog standard 144hz 1440p LG monitor, is not supported by wayland), no global hotkeys, broken sleep mode, breaks appimages entirely, no redshift, the developers made sweeping design decisions that don't work and then get pissy and throw temper tantrums in the mailing lists when people point out that they don't work, heavily moving away from portability and modularity (the devs think nobody uses BSD?!), windows can't raise themselves or keep themselves raised, or absolutely position themselves, so toolbars/utilities/etc can just go fuck themselves, sudo gets broken and has to pipe passwords everywhere as a workaround which means sudo has increased attack surface on wayland, and color management is non-existent.
And this is just shit I have personally ran into the last time I tried it, which was about 4 months ago.
I don't know about all of those. Not sure if you downvoted me, in which case you might have the predisposition of not giving a shit. In which case I'd be most happy to oblige.
As for the technical implementations / shortcomings, I... don't really care about it. The reason I didn't use Wayland before was because things didn't work. The reasons why I don't use X11 now, is because things occasionally stop working. The reason why I still sometimes use X11, is that unless I do so, some specific software doesn't work. That's the frame of mind I have, and I don't have any allegiance or vested interest beyond that. You seem to have that, and that's great. Caring about the technical details has my respect.
So as for the stuff you mention that is directly user-facing:
ssh -Xis amazing, and doesn't work, but it's been about 15 years since I used it.The reason I care about the technical implementation shortcomings is because they don't go away. They don't magically fix themselves over time, they snowball, especially when the maintainers refuse to admit they're shortcomings and insist on doubling down on them.
As time goes on, new functionality and technologies are going to emerge, and you need to be able to fold those, cleanly and reliably, into your codebase. And frankly, wayland's devs are having trouble getting past and even current technologies implemented cleanly into their codebase, because they're made architectural decisions that exclude those technologies. This is just going to be more and more of a problem as time goes on, imo.
Thanks for the clarifications.
I do hope it improves. I never understood why Wayland became a thing, if it's fundamentally flawed. But then, on the other hand, it's strange to not make the improvements in X11, unless that too is fundamentally flawed.
Ngl, never once had an issue with any of these.
That being said I mainly use screen recording through kms capture with wlroots, which never once has had an issue for me
Ubuntu Gnome on AMD, actually.
xdotool. I just spent a non zero amount of time building and setting up ydotool (a similar tool that works on Wayland) as a systemd service on my raspberry pi. Made me appreciate how nice it is to just install a thing and have it work flawlessly even after a reboot and all you ever did to set it up was a single installation command that completed in like 3 seconds.
Just random things like screen sharing not working in all applications or having weird issues with connecting more than 2 monitors.
If my laptop suspends (?), the graphics get scrambled. Like, I shut the lid, come back a few hours later, and it's a completely garbled mess. Happens with Wayland; doesn't happen with X11.
I can't run console apps like jdupes through mtp protocol in wayland which is very troublesome for me since i using it alot, but i successfully can run it in xorg because it mounts as a folder not as protocol, and yes I've tried to use gui "open this folder in terminal" in wayland programs like jdupes still don't work through mtp but in xorg they do regardless of how i do it
My understanding is that 'barrier' doesn't work in Wayland. That's a showstopper for me, unfortunately.
Barrier is unmaintained, input-leap is maintained for of it, but with no releases yet. Not sure if it supports wayland better tho.
I use the Waynergy client on my laptop (gnome & wayland) and Barrier on my PC as the host, and everything's working.
I got one of those NUCs at work that has new Intel XE integrated graphics. X11 works amazing, but wayland operates like a slideshow when I move windows around. Never looked much into it, just went to X11 and never went back.
Tooling.
Give me sticky keys or give me X
Workrave. Does not work at all on Wayland. But I have been using Wayland the last two years and I am glad that I made the switch. The beginning was a bit rough, but I am glad that I never have to deal with screen tearing ever again on Linux.
Of all the things, this confuses me the most.
I've been using Linux almost exclusively (except for a stint of 6 years where my employer provided me with Macs, and even then my personal machinesiwere Linux). I've never had an NVidia, but my GPUs have ranged the rest of the options, mostly Intel and AMD. I haven't seen screen tearing since maybe the early 00s? So many Wayland advocates pick this one Xorg issue, and I haven't seen it in decades, and almost as many different computers.
Is it NVidia? Is that the common factor? That's the only thing I can think of, since I've never had an NVidia card.
Disabling mouse acceleration forcibly globally
Oh man, reminds me of trying to use slightly non-standard monitor with wayland.
X? Just tell it to be the resolution/refresh rate. Wayland? Just get fucked.
What's the general opinion on wayland by the way ?
Cool promising future that failed to currently deliver for most
Some could not be happier, though.
on a laptop with Wayland, everything is sufficient. Xorg is terrible
I miss apps supporting global hotkeys. Screen remote support in popular apps.
xbindkeysYes, support for sessions in Plasma.
Xorg? Wayland? Seems like I lack context to understand that competition.
My distro came wirh Cinnamon, and it died two times on my setup after updates - black screen after login - before I installed Xfce instead and still use it daily. I love that unlike Windows you can just jump ships and unsubscribe from what you dislike. This meme draws that freedom as something bad. It's not healthy to the community...
... but if there would be a DE war, Xpect frequent combat engagements, as the way to your land and ten of your HQs are marked with red Xs on my map.
This is a bit different to DEs. X11 and Wayland are display server protocols. For some time all DEs used X11, but it wasn't perfect and had some issues, so some folks came up with Wayland to replace it. I don't know a lot about the differences but one example I have is that you can't have two monitors with different resolution scaling on X11. Wayland solves that issue.
X11 has been around for a long time, though, and does a lot of stuff, probably more stuff than a display server should. and so a lot of Linux programs have come to rely on those things. This means that the change to Wayland is not straight forward, it meant rewriting a whole bunch of X11 functionality that Wayland would never add.
This will probably be a good thing in the long run, but as of now a lot of people are still not ready to change. And to mirror your sentiment, nor should they have to.
Also: I probably don't know as much about this topic as some others, so correct me at will.
I learnt some things reading you, thank you. As a newbie to Linux I'm not the one to argue anything. But I had an urge to shitpost, and my last sentence comes from an abbreviature of XFCE and references both Wayland and X11. I'm an artist more than I'm a thinker.
Xorg and Wayland are two protocols every Desktop Environment use and is, from my limited knowledge on it, the thing that tells the DE how to behave and display windows on your screen. Since 1984, the Linux world uses Xorg (now at the 11 edition: X11) but now, there is a massive transition towards a protocol more secure and focused around privacy called Wayland because first, it's objectively better, and because X11 will soon be deprecated/abandoned. But due to its way of handling things (like for example, windows can't see each other: they think they're alone on the PC, preventing some programs from spying on each others but also preventing them to communicate with each other, like to share screen or screenshot. We have portals to solve that now though, so no worries), Wayland struggle to convince everybody and therefore is heavily criticized, mostly because it's sort of being forced due to the Xorg team letting the project die to develop Wayland, the successor, waiting for every distros and their DE to adopt it.
But despite not directly mentioning those protocols, you're right by saying "you can just jump ships and unsubscribe from what you dislike" because honestly, nobody's preventing people from continuing to use Xorg and groups from continuing the development of DE based on Xorg or simply continuing the Xorg project, but if they want to progress and evolve with the rest of the world, they will have to switch to Wayland eventually.
Screen tearing in Firefox
Edit: to reword, I lack Firefox screen tearing on Wayland but I have it on Xorg.
I mean that I have screen tearing on Firefox with Xorg, which is why I used to use Chromium, when I switched to Wayland I realised that the tearing had stopped.
Are you sure you are running Firefox with Wayland and not Xwayland? You have to add an environment variable to run it properly, the default it X
I meant that I have screen tearing on Xorg, but I don't have it on Wayland.
Ahh yes, this is probably the main reason I use Wayland, even being not well cooked yet. Screen tearing in games was insufferable using 2 monitors with different refresh rates.
LIAR
Can you screenshare with wayland?
Yep, using Pipewire.
slaps forehead Of course! Silly me for not realizing the obviousness of needing to use the audio subsystem to take screenshots.
How am I being downvoted for a questions and this stands haha
Take my upvote kind stranger
XWaylandVideoBridge
You can't share your screen in discord with wayland
Yea you can.
The last time I tried it just shared a black screen. If I switch to X11 it worded.
You are most definitely running Discord in XWayland. You need to add chromium flags to make it run in native Wayland. You also need to have an xdg desktop portal to support screen sharing.
If you want screenshare to work on an app that can't run in wayland, use XWaylandVideoBridge
Maybe you can't but I definitely can, flawlessly. Only thing is once I close a game I have to restart the scream.
Like, everything?
Guake doesn't work, gnome-screenshot doesn't work, Plank doesn't work...
Most GUI utilities that integrate into the OS of some kind require drawing over apps. It's absurd that Wayland doesn't support this properly for uhhh no reason other than vague claims of improved security and process isolation. If someone's into your system with such a degree of access it's all over anyway.
If I'm not using Gnome, then I'll be using i3 and then I honestly could care less which one, I'll just be using the most compatible one which I think is just xorg. Plasma just sucks I'm so sorry, it's messy.
And I'm sorry but there's no serious work you can do with an AMD GPU either. I wish it wasn't like this but it is, no CUDA no joy.
Wayland is DOA and will never replace Xorg. Deal with it.
This is just misinformed.
Sure your favorite apps may not use it, but Wayland does provide protocols for drawing things over other apps. https://wayland.app/protocols/wlr-layer-shell-unstable-v1
I never used guake with i3 since scratchpads exist and are the general solution, and sway works fine there.
and there's plenty of screenshot apps that work. I haven't tried gnome-screenshot, but I find it hard to believe that it or some alternative gnome one doesn't work given the effort the project has put into Wayland
nvidia support isn't great but it is getting better. I haven't bought nvidia in forever but I know plasma and gnome both say they have support for Wayland on nvidia now.
For gaming amd is great, for real work I'd just rent time on some cloud service lol. If I'm that worried about performance my one consumer gpu isn't going to make a dent either
He's wrong all of this works on Wayland.
I used a 3080 on Wayland and the only thing that didn't work was night light (red tint mode). At this time nvidia-open was marked as not viable for desktop. In 6.7 noveau has gsp support so the open source path has improved rapidly.
It was shortly after their hack that they announced partnership with RedHat / Canonical devs to make their graphics driver better. It's going to have a similar arch to how the AMD drive is under the name nvidia-open. However the proprietary driver does work on Wayland at this point in time.
Night mode doesn't work on Wayland? 💀
It didn't at the time on Nvidia specifically. It has since been resolved.
Night mode works great on all three now, Intel, Nvidia, and AMD.
Pretty much everything works on Wayland in general at this point.
the one built in to plasma does, haven't tried any others
What about redshift?
just look things up lol
https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Backlight#Wayland
No, redshift is an xorg application. It likely will become obsolete.
Night mode is in the compositor now.
I'm using Fedora, which has both gnome-screenshot and wayland. Been about 2-3y now and idfk what he's talking about, never had an issue.
the screenshot functionality is now built into GNOME Shell with a better UI
Gnome has decided to never support wlr-layer-shell that is 40% of your userbase right there.
yeah that's weird, and I can't really tell why, but then that's a gnome problem not a Wayland problem. they're explicitly choosing to not support it.
I did find this though which seems to imply that it could be supported in mutter, but it'd take a fork if you wanted to implement it in gnome shell https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/mutter/-/issues/973
anyway, there's choice. if you need these features use something that supports them
This is great unless you need feature A that only X or Y and B that is only available in Z
fork gnome then, idk what to tell you
How about I just continue to use X which will be getting security updates for the next decade and was feature complete many many years prior.
Nvidia works great on Wayland. Even unusual configuration I'm running with egpu hooked up to a laptop with another Nvidia card built in. Zero issues. I'm allergic to Gnome, but KDE works beautifully.
Hey could you please point me to some resources to wrap my head around what I need to know to consider an egpu setup with Linux? Just looking for something that will overview of requirements and pain points, all the better if I can try to figure out what a good bang for the buck rig looks like right now.
This is something I've been curious about for awhile, but most of the articles I've found seem to assume I've got some egpu knowhow already.
I found almost no resources for this but it was mostly plug and play.
One thing I can suggest is keep everything same brand. My laptop has an Nvidia gpu built in and I tried using amd gpu without success. Spent about a week on it and tried various combination of drivers and settings. Nvidia just works.
Also Intel gpus require rebar enabled which almost none of the laptops support so I did not really consider them even though they were super attractive because of pricing.
The way I use it is set prime-select to Intel2 which disables built in Nvidia gpu and then I activate external gpu after login by running nvidia-smi as root after login. Then you just launch apps you want to use Nvidia gpu with
__NV_PRIME_RENDER_OFFLOAD=1 __GLX_VENDOR_LIBRARY_NAME=nvidia command_name arguments
Thank you! So it sounds like I just need to find a GPU and enclosure combo that fits my budget (TBD) , and it's like adding any other bit of hardware. I do have an intel-only system currently (integrated Iris XE), so I'll have to dig in on that. Thanks!
So no apps worth mentioning work, and only gaming (which doesn't work on Linux) is benefitted? Sway is dead and most of those other replacements are just worse. Yeah DOA like I said.
have you seen steam deck sales? linux gaming is mainstream. everything I've tried recently just works.
When would you think sway is dead lol? it has way more commits than i3, same number of contributors, and the last commit was 7 minutes ago. i3 hasn't been touched in months. i3 is dead, contributors have jumped to sway
also, even if you aren't using scratchpads over guake, guake runs on Wayland. https://github.com/Guake/guake/issues/1934
idk why all the people against Wayland are so clueless lol, it feels intentionally ignorant at this point
i3wm is a 15 year old feature complete window manager not a JavaScript framework. It isn't dead if it hasn't had a new release this month.
The last commit was 4 days ago the last release 4 months or so ago. It has again seen continuous development for 15 years.
where are gaps?
also fair, not dead, but it's silly to say sway is too.
gaps was merged a while ago
I understand some harshness but this statement is just crazy, xorg is already dead feature wise and Wayland is de facto the new protocol, you can say it is not ready but there is no way back.
If there's gonna be a replacement for xorg, this ain't it chief, it needs to actually work