Kenneth Smith ‘struggled for life’ for 22 minutes in Alabama nitrogen gas execution: Updates
“Kenny just began to gasp for air repeatedly and the execution took about 25 minutes total.”
Pretty compassionate way to kill a person.
Once again, the Law in the south is brutal.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/alabama-execution-nitrogen-kenneth-smith-updates-b2485208.htmlOpen linkView original on lemmy.sdf.org751
Comments580
I’m curious how they implemented this. The air completely has to be replaced with nitrogen, no breathing in a mix of nitrogen and outside air, no oxygen at all. People that enter confined spaces with no oxygen pretty much just drop and are dead quickly, so this doesn’t sound like they did it right.
They used a mask rather than the more appropriate method which would be to use a sealed chamber that was forcefully evacuated of oxygen and replaced by nitrogen the way the suicide pods are supposed to function.
The problem with a mask is it can't be a perfectly sealed system. The issue with the execution from a logistical standpoint was the redneck engineering they employed and not the actual science behind nitrogen hypoxia.
Please don't come at me, I'm not making a value judgment about the use of the death penalty, I'm just explaining the issue with their shoddy ass methodology.
Edit: accidentally a word.
Edit #2 (YouTube Link): Here is some additional information about why a gas mask is an ineffective and dangerous way to conduct an execution via nitrogen hypoxia from Dr. Philip Nitschke, a leading advocate of the right to die movement and an expert in the field of voluntary euthanasia. He personally examined the execution method being used in Alabama, and told them he felt it would be ineffective for many of the same reasons stated above.
FTR I’m generally against the death penalty, so same, don’t give me grief. I’m of the opinion that if it’s gonna be done, don’t fuck it up.
Ok. So regarding the implementation it sounds like they fucked it up. As you said (and I previously implied) it sounds like they didn’t properly exclude oxygen/remove waste CO2. Kinda hard to believe they fucked up something so simple considering the ton of evidence on hypoxic accidents.
Precisely. They apparently either felt it was fine to cut corners, do not fully understand how nitrogen hypoxia actually works, or a little bit of suffering was intentionally part of the process because it still is Alabama after all.....
The big, really big issue, and I hate to say it. Is that, depending on the jurisdiction and laws in place, executions cannot be done by professionals. Most of the people who would know how to do it properly, medics, nurses, engineers, are ethically banned from participating or facilitating executions. Not that this stops them all from participating, and in some contexts some do, but on the general, executions on the USA are performed by completely incompetent individuals.
The more reason to just not fucking do them in the first place. How did they botched it using a mask when almost every single expert on medically assisted death recommends at least a sealed hood.
Very good point.
The people with the most experience with nitrogen suffocation are scientists working with animals. It's the current best ethical euthanasia method.
Was gonna say, in Alabama you could give them a step by step guide and they'd take shortcuts.
You're assuming they could read the steps in the first place. That guide better include pictures!
Of course it was. They also didn't want to use nitrogen, as there is no awareness at all if done correctly. The drugs they use with lethal injection likely induce panic and pain because they do not induce unconsciousness before it.
Executions have never been intended to be humane. They are punishment, vindication for the wronged. A childish obsession with a horrible misunderstanding of justice.
The exit bag uses nitrogen suffocation as a suicide method. It's a bag that encloses the person's head. If they felt a mask could have been used, they would have
Hot take, they don't care because they are killing someone. The humanity part of it is completely removed. They care that they did the deed and it didn't work. It should have been immediate. Someone should be losing their job. An Internet search could have prevented this.
Plus it's Alabama. The cruelty has always been the point for as long as they have been a state
Surely they ought to care simply because if they continue to fuck it up they will lose public support for executions?
Well you and I would think that is obvious. I am not so sure what they are thinking.
I'm willing to bet my left testicle they thought in their lead-addled brain that it would work like a diver's mask. Pumping in gas pushes out the water, so it must also push out the air, I tell you hwat! I don't consider myself to be a very bright person, but even I know that water and air work differently.
I think the bigger issue is that he was aware of when the nitrogen started, so tried holding his breath for as long as possible.
If he had the mask on and it was pumping breathable air, and then at some point switched to pure nitrogen without any warning that would be more humane because he wouldn't know what was happening or when.
Lol at calling any of that humane. There’s nothing humane about suffocating a man against his will.
It sounds like your real issue is with the act of executing criminals rather than the method used.
Which is fine, but it's a different discussion.
In case you didn't know, that should be "shoddy" as in "made or done poorly"
Yes, that is what I was going for, thank you. I have now corrected my shoddy spelling 🙃😉
You shouldn't really need a seal if you have positive pressure. Agree that this was half-assed, though
Why not use like a scuba mask with a tank of nitrogen instead of oxygen? Scuba masks are seemingly airtight.
Or even a collar with a helmet like an astronaut suit. A lot easier to evacuate oxygen from a suit than an entire room.
He could have held his breath in a chamber too. The problem is it being forced on someone instead of being voluntary or unnoticed.
He held his breath for 22min? No they fucked up the procedure. Even if he had held his breath at first he should have been unconsious the first time he took one. I've nearly been knocked out by nitrogen hypoxia before. It takes one lungfull of non oxygenated air to make you start to black out. He must have still been getting some oxygen somehow. It sounds like they were trying to use a mask (which is a dumb way to do it) so they probably didn't use a high enough flow rate for the nitrogen and he was breathing in air from around the mask. They probably would have been better off forgetting about the mask entirely and just blowing nitrogen at his face at a much higher flow rate (that's what almost did it for me).
It was both.
Make the switch from regular air to nitrogen at a random point and he'll be dead before he realizes it.
Also the guillotine is right there.. it's not pretty but the only method that "just works".
They often don't. There are moderate risks with lethal injections, and even if you seem unconscious, it's still disputed whether you would really be unaware or not. As for the gas, suffocate in any manner is very painful and unpleasant.
Your suffocation reflex is driven by a buildup of carbon dioxide, not a lack of oxygen.
If you leave air composition the same but remove the oxygen, your body doesn't notice and you feel fine until you suddenly black out.
https://youtu.be/UN3W4d-5RPo?si=3LKw5fe1wXfRDcrB
The Air Force does training on it, since it can happen if the aircraft loses pressure and pilots need to know how to notice and handle it. As you can see in the above video, the pilot is not suffering even though the oxygen level has been cut quite drastically.
If you hold your breath you still build up CO2. You know, as a reaction to being killed.
So don't announce "alright, now!" to the victim. Wait until they're breathing normally and then silently switch over to nitrogen, he'll be unconscious before he realizes it.
And after a couple minutes at most you will reflexively take a breath or pass out and start breathing. In an inert atmosphere that first breath will knock you out almost immediately. After that you won't feel anything. After the individual is unconsious you just need to keep them in an inert gas for a few more minutes for them to actually die.
Even with a portion of that being 'just to make sure' his vital signs had stopped, it was certainly longer than a couple of minutes.
Because clearly they fucked something up. He was still getting oxygen somehow. I'm guessing they didn't have the nitrogen flow high enough so he was still getting some oxygen.
It could have also just been agonal gasping which can last over an hour even after the person is already dead. It's fairly common for people to see that and say the person is still breathing even though that person has already been dead for a while. It also happens with heart attacks and it frequently leads to ems having to explain to family members why there is no hope of resuscitation even though to them it looks like the person is still "breathing".
That's the crux of the whole "this was done very, very wrong" thing people have been saying.
You are not being “suffocated” in the sense that you aren’t allowed to breathe. I suggest you do some looking around and check out events where people have entered spaces that can have no/limited oxygen such as mines or anchor chain lockers on ships. They often simply drop unconscious and are dead fairly quickly. The victim isn’t re-breathing CO2, which is what gives us that panicked lack of air feeling, or someone holding something over your face making it difficult to breathe.
If you’ve ever had a medical procedure that puts you under, I can assure you there’s nothing remembered to be aware of.
Just like with anesthesia, all of the examples of people losing consciousness peacefully were either doing it voluntarily or unknowingly.
I personally experienced breathing nitrogen until loss of consciousness under controlled and supervised conditions for training purposes with the RCAF. I was in a room with seven other people who were all doing the same thing as well as instructors who were in here with us for safety.
The point of the exercise was to sit in a room with a mask on, recognize the symptoms of hypoxia when we experienced them and throw a lever that would resume normal air breathing once we had enough. We were given tablets with simple games to play to simulate having our minds occupied on accomplishing some tasks. We knew they were going to switch or air supplies with pure nitrogen at some point to cause hypoxia but we didn't know when it was going to happen. The room was also a hypobaric chamber but it didn't stimulate a high enough altitude to induce hypoxia by itself, it was only there to simulate the environmental signs of decompression ( fogging of the air, percieved drop in pressure, cooling sensation, etc)
We sat there for a few minutes accomplishing the tasks on the tablets (basically paying candy crush) with nothing special going on. Then I noticed that we all started breathing deeper and harder. When I looked around people were also red in the face but strangely did not feel any discomfort from it and some people were even still playing on their tablets without noticing. Some of them threw their personal lever immediately because the point of the exercise was to recognize the signs of hypoxia. But others including my competitive ass wanted to see how far I could take it and if I could outlast others so we kept going.
My breathing naturally got deeper and harder but strangely I wasn't feeling like I was suffocating. I started feeling pins and needles in my extremities. Concentrating on the tasks in the tablet became increasingly difficult and slower. A few moments later I got tunnel vision and my hearing started to sound muffled. These two effects progressively got worse until I could almost not see or hear anything anymore at which point I finally threw the lever just before passing out due to a phenomenon called oxygen paradox where when oxygen supply is resumed the hypoxia symptoms briefly get worse before going away. I didn't even notice passing out. I woke up a few moments later and from my perspective it seemed that time had skipped forward a minute. Had I not thrown the lever and there were no instructors to do it for me I would have died a few moments later.
All of this took less than 5 minutes and I never experienced anything worse than mild discomfort throughout. I don't know how they managed to make it last 25 minutes other than maybe the brain stem running on fumes and keeping the heart beating but there is no consciousness at that point. If I ever had to pick a way to be executed this would be it, provided that it is done correctly.
Sounds like they didn't remove the CO2, just gave him a mask that forced him to breathe nitrogen. Like a standard medical respirator, so he spent half an hour rebreathing his CO2 and whatever oxygen slipped in around the mask.
I know that CO2 is what the body uses to push the sensation of "needing" air. So I wonder if that would have changed his CO2 content from what it would be in just nitrogen...
You did that in a safe situation where nobody was trying to kill you. I don't suffer when holding my breath underwater, but the moment someone holds me down I am going to panic.
"Waterboarding doesn't cause suffering because it isn't literally drowning."
That's what you sound like.
The body is weird when it comes to breathing. It doesn't measure one of the critical gasses. 3 things particularly send the body into a breathing panic.
Rising CO2 (via blood acidity)
Water in the airways.
Resistance to inflating the lungs.
Water boarding is particularly evil, since it creates just enough of the last 2 to trigger a full blown drowning reaction, but is light enough to not actually be dangerous. This lets the questioner hold the victim in that zone, without permanent physical harm (but massive psychological harm).
Nitrogen hypoxia doesn't set off any of those triggers. This makes it particularly dangerous to some workers. They don't realise anything is wrong until they pass out.
Also, to clarify. I am massively against the death penalty. It's both cruel, and not particularly effective as a deterrent. It's also no cheaper, in practice, than life imprisonment. However, if it is going to be used, it should be as humane as possible. Nitrogen hypoxia is about as humane as it can get.
They cannot do it humanely with a method that requires the person to breath normally to work. If they can hold their breath it will always be inhumane because they will still be struggling and have the same impending doom and physical reaction as waterboarding.
It does not matter if the chemical properties are different when the person has a working brain and doesn't want to die. Or if it is being implemented by incompetent people who couldn't even kill him with lethal injection in 2022.
So what method would you suggest, assuming you must choose a method?
I'm completely against the death penalty. It's no longer an option over here in the UK. However, if it must be done, do it as humanely as possible.
Locked in a box, with a cat, a flask of poison, a radioactive source, and a Geiger counter.
Except when the Geiger counter gets a hit, it sets off a nuclear bomb inside the box so I'm instantly vaporized.
I reject your premise. Alabama’s government could have just said “we can’t get the drugs for lethal injection, so we’re not doing the death penalty any more.” Instead they said “we’re going through hell and high water to kill this guy.” Fuck them. The death penalty is morally wrong because it puts every member of a democratic society in the position of being a killer.
I will not choose a method because all options require a trained an licensed medical professional to implement humanely, and nobody who qualifies will participate because they have ethics that prohibit causing harm to be licensed medical professionals. That includes putting someone to death against their will.
Picking a method is agreeing with the assumption that we have to put people to death.
The thing is, all of the humane ways to kill someone require the person to be a willing participant in the process. Nitrogen works when the person is relaxed and breathing normally for example.
Your first sentence is simply false.
this is like arguing that suicide is inhumane and should be illegal
A person who is doing it voluntarily for suicide would not be struggling against impending doom and would be breathing normally. The context here is execution against someone's will.
you are conflating waterboarding with non consensual, but expected waterboarding.
He isn't going to get out of it, but it's also not like he has no idea whats going to happen.
How to deal with waterboarding? Don't breath.
The people waterboarding you will just keep pouring water until you start breathing.
What?
if you're a prisoner on death row, it's not exactly like you have zero advanced notice of whats going to happen.
Given that bureaucracy exists, i think it might be prudent to say that you might even have ALL of the advanced notice one could possibly want in that scenario.
It is not fair to liken this to being held underwater. When forced to hold your breathyour lungs fill with CO2 which will cause pain, an urge to breathe and a primal urge to panic because your body has evolved the ability to sense this excess of CO2 to force you to breathe. But when breathing pure nitrogen your body doesn't have an evolved way to detect it besides minor symptoms that you may or may not notice until you pass out.
Yes, the very idea that you will die can be emotionally distressing but this will be common to all methods of execution.
When I’m held down I get turned on.
A lot of people are focused on this quote:
Which says to me that from the time they brought him in and strapped him down until he died lasted about 22 minutes and the murderer struggled physically against the restraints the entire time.
This quote farther down suggests from the time they started administering the gas until he died only took a couple of minutes:
Several could be 25, and he could have been shaking from pain and agony, but it seems more likely he was holding his breath and shaking out of fear while trying to fight and get free.
Keep in mind that the first quote is from his anti-death penalty spiritual advisor and this entire article is brought to us by a magazine with an "end the death penalty campaign".
I'm generally anti-death penalty myself, but nitrogen asphyxiation seems way better than electrocution, lethal injection, or hanging. They could probably do it better by using some kind of general anesthesia to render him unconscious and then flood the room with pure nitrogen, or even just get rid if the death penalty all together. Unfortunately this is the world we live in and so fae this is the least bad option we've seen.
How dare you actually read the story!?
I do have some reservations about the idea of a compassionate execution method. It's kinda like tasers. Yes, they are a huge improvement on the alternative, but that also means they get used a lot more frequently.
The death penalty is barbaric.
Tom Scott did a video on this as well.
25 minutes does seem like an awfully long time.
State fucked it up ..dude it's Alabama.
So you weren't fighting for your life.
That will be true for any method of execution.
True. Maybe we should outlaw them all.
You did that shit for a job? I hope they paid you well, sounds like you could have easily died if something went wrong..
I can't say that I'd be giggly about having my brain cells oxygen deprived for going on 5 minutes.
So they fucked it up and then there's a real gem in the article. The jury voted to give him life without parole. A judge overruled that jury to give him the death penalty anyways.
There are no more laws. Only the whims of judges.
There are many accounts of workers accidentally entering confined spaces that have been purged with nitrogen and they were all unconscious in seconds. (OSHA records). If it took the prison 22 MINUTES to execute this guy, then they totally botched that execution.
The state tells you murder is illegal. Except when the state does it. You can't expect people to follow, "do what I say, not what I do."
It's cruel, it's a reflection of our morals. The death penalty is not a deterrent for murder. The death penalty is hypocrisy. The death penalty is for an unserious society.
But the death penalty is just a symptom of a greater chronic illness we suffer from. We'll just continue to kill ourselves until we find a cure for the disease.
Edit: I see many do not like my wording for state sanctioned murder. If you are reading this and don't understand, imagine if listening to George Bush (can't remember which) tell the tv America doesn't negotiate with terrorists. He's drawing a moral line in the sand with terrorism. That's my point. We need to figure out where our moral line in the sand is with the death penalty, because right now it's all over the place. Do I think outlawing the death penalty will solve our societal woes? No, I do not. The people will demand it until it is reinstated. For me I ask what is the purpose of the death penalty? Does it serve a greater good for a society? Obviously it does not. Americans are murdered all the time, so it serves no purpose.
Stop executions.
Every day you wake up and think, "There's no way America can get even more fucked up than it was yesterday".
And every day some asshole says "wanna bet...watch this."
USA, USA, USA!
Fuckin Merica fuck yea.
Very Christian of them...
You're right brother. At times like this, I remember Exodus 21:17, Deuteronomy 22:24 and Genesis 9:5-6.
That's old testament and old covenant. You should listen to Jesus and the new covenant instead. E.g. Matthew 5, 38-42.
While you're at it, read though verse 48. Would suit a lot of Christians better if they didn't conveniently skip over those verses on a regular basis.
Matthew 5:17-18
That's Jesus speaking, by the way.
Seems very clear to me, guy.
I like that you reference Matthew 5, yet seem to completely ignore a big part of the chapter.
Sucks right? You can't be a Christian and still distance yourself from the horrific things that occurred in the Old Testament. Your god is a petty, jealous, slavery-promoting, genocidal piece of shit.
Sorry, I forgot. Give me a list of the parts of the Bible I'm supposed to ignore. I want to make sure I'm paying attention only to the parts of the Lord's written word that are correct.
It's funny ("funny") because they ignored the part of Matthew 5 where Jesus explicitly says that he didn't come to abolish the law, and that not a thing about it will be changed until the end of time essentially (verses 17 & 18)
Tells you to read parts of Matthew 5, but skips the part of the chapter that directly contradicts their point.
Typical Christian rationalization.
As far as I know, you're not supposed to ignore anything. But there is a new covenant and an old covenant. For example, that's why you probably know Christian women with short hair. Same thing with capital punishment.
I know Jews that eat shrimp... doesn't make it any more kosher.
No fan of Christianity, but it is pretty consistently stated that the old testament is basically the old religions book.
Kinda like how Islam and Christianity have a common origin, but don't follow the same religious text.
The story being that the deity of the abrahamic faiths has issued a series of different holy books and prophets for different eras, with the new one obsoleting the previous one.
Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Mormonism. Each says the previous was valid, but they get the new word of God and the old ones were true, but now the old rules are gone.
So it's actually internally consistent for a Christian to say the Torah doesn't apply, which is basically what the old testament is. Similar to how we don't latch onto Islam saying the old and new testament are obsolete, and only the Quran is true now.
There are plenty of examples in each of the chunks to point out the cruelty inherent in all of them without having to fall back to the "old canon".
No it's not internally consistent. Sure, that's what many modern Christians who recognize just how problematic their god and religion are and want to selectively ignore the parts they don't like, will try to tell you. But it's bullshit.
As I said to another Christian in this thread...
Jesus himself stated:
That's Matthew 5:17-18, and if you ask me it's very clear
In context and less shit translations, it's pretty clear that he's saying he's fulfilling the prophesies and the promise of the old covenant, not that literally he's changing nothing.
In the same context, you have him saying that the entirety of the law is to love your neighbor as you love yourself.
Or, more bluntly from the same story:
I have now googled more Bible shit than I care to to cite my dim recollections of religious history studies.
Tldr, Jesus supposedly came to fullfil the promise of the old testament via a vis the relationship between man and God, and to replace that covenant with a new, more chill covenant with less shellfish and more love.
And, this is important to your point, a lot of flaying people alive for failing to obey their slave masters or properly worship God. You don't have to cite the old bit of the book, that they believe is obsolete, to find gnarly shit that makes it not look great.
It doesn't feel too ridiculous to me that religions that came about in the same area would reference each others texts, but aren't beholden to be responsible for their content. 1000 years of telephone was not kind to that translation.
Yeah, God would rather you bash their head against rocks as they're still babies
It may not be Christ-like but it is very god-like. The Christian god made man in his own image, and god killed over 2 million people in the Bible.
These are more fans of the Old Testament stuff where God was metal.
Yeah nothing more "metal" than a supposedly all-powerful being that openly describes itself using such petty human emotions as jealously.
Nothing more metal than an insecure god that has a tantrum if people don't worship him above all else.
He got more easy listening in the later years but lost his edge.
Yet these people are Jesus freaks but without the compassion and anti materialism. Good old "religion buffet".
That ain’t just murder… that’s 25 minutes of panic and fear…
With a tiny bit of torture and inhumanity thrown in for good measure
That is the purpose of states and of nations, to hold the monopoly on legitimate violence.
That is a really bad idea
Welcome to government.
Okay. What do you believe the purpose of states and nations is?
To represent the interests of the people on an inter and intra national level. Not to have a monopoly on violence. If only the cops/military have the ability to enact force both legally and practically, it will be abused. We can see that all over the United States and the world.
Representing the interests of people is the purpose of governments, not nations.
Has there ever been a nation without a government?
Perhaps not, but there are governments without nations. The EU or the UN, for instance.
Gruesome.
I'm not convinced the death penalty is worthwhile except to feed someone's wrath.
What if, (and hear me out,) we did for corrections the sort of thing that countries with low recidivism do? Like, not use for-profit prisons with incentive to turn out re-offenders, and not use prisons that turn out hardened criminals that aren't equipped to function in the world without resorting to crime, and actually take the 'corrections' or 'rehabilitation' parts of their nomenclature seriously?
If all we do with our prisons is punish and humiliate (and squeeze slave labor out of) convicts, we're just creating future crime and all that's left at that point is killing convicts at industrial pace unless you can figure out that crime is more driven by poverty than anything else, and the USA just doesn't want to figure that out because it just doesn't want to solve poverty or crime, it wants to make money creating and punishing both.
How on earth did they fuck this up? The point is to starve the person of oxygen by replacing his air supply sith pure nitrogen. Either he's an accomplished free-diver and held his breath for 21 minutes, or they bodged it.
Also, how about you stop giving the state the power to kill people? Especially when the victim's family said they were forgiven "years ago". Whole thing is disgusting
It sounds to me like they didn't account for the oxygen in his lungs. They put a fucking mask on him and filled it with pure nitrogen, but it was probably a closed system so his own breath had nowhere to go. Most of the oxygen that goes to your lungs is not absorbed, and you have breathe in your own breath for a while before the CO2 content makes it poisonous.
That's the wrong fucking way to do it.
CO2 poisoning is fucking brutal. Your brain recognizes that you can't expell carbon dioxide, and your body panics. You'll thrash about and struggle to breathe fresh air, even though you still have lots of oxygen in your lungs and in your blood stream.
The whole point of Nitrogen is that your body doesn't realize it's not getting Oxygen, and you slowly lose consciousness without any panic or reflex. To do that, you have to pump nitrogen into a chamber and then filter out oxygen and carbon dioxide. The chamber can be the size of a mask, but a sealed box would be less likely to leak. As you breathe, the oxygen and the carbon dioxide are continuously scrubbed from the air.
Basically, this guy was tortured to death. If you've ever had the sensation of being under water too long, and you have that shocking dull pain in your chest and a headache, it's like that but for 23 minutes until you die.
Ah, I didn't read in the article that they used a mask. What a cruel / incompetent thing to do
A CPAP mask could obtain a similar effect. It forms a perfect seal on the face with a one way valve for exhalation. As long as the mask is piped to a bottle of pure nitrogen you'd quickly remove all oxygen from your air supply and be out like a light in no time
But doesn't that just go over the nose? I'm not sure. Plus, the seal would have to be air-tight. A cpap might be snug to the skin, but you could break the seal by moving your cheeks around.
You're right, there are multiple types of CPAP mask. I was writing about full face ones like these. In the cheapo ones we stock on my ambulance the seal around the mask is a silicone-ish tubing that clings to the skin very well.
For CPAP or BiPAP to be effective (and not piss off your ventilator), the circuit needs to be leak free. I've had full conversations with people on BiPAP before without my vent throwing any alarms. They have an expiratory valve so you can breathe out, but no outside air gets in. You're fed solely by the air getting pumped out of the vent. These masks would be very easy to set up for pure nitrogen by using trach mask tubing (the ports are the same size) and a tank of nitrogen set up to an O2 regulator. Ditch the dilutor for one that's closed off. Couldn't tell you what they're called but I've used them before and know they exist. This whole setup could be had for less than $50 if you're purchasing wholesale
This is almost exactly what a good friend of mine used to kill himself eight years ago this week. His thought process was that it would be a painless death. I hope he was right.
I'm sorry for your loss and if it's any reassurance, that's about as quick and painless he could've managed. It's never easy to lose someone but hopefully knowing that will make* things a little easier. I wish you the best
Thanks, I appreciate it.
The obvious outcome is someone trying to fight against being killed in whatever way they can. If you know that you won't get oxygen, the obvious response is to hold your breath.
This would work humanely for someone who wants to die, but as a method of execution is is torture like all the rest.
No US citizen should be surprised that Alabama of all places fucked this up, lol. My personal opinion is that it all started when religion got involved with the execution process
Gonna have to say that a botch job could have happened anywhere, because medical professionals aren't involved in executions, flawed executions have happened in many states many times, geography doesn't have much to do with that, it's the nature of state sanctioned murder sadly.
They used a mask. Not a sealed chamber like the suicide pods. So presumably it wasn't completely air tight.
Ah, I didn't read in the article that they used a mask. What a cruel / incompetent thing to do
Need less nitrogen for a mask so it saves money!
-some jackass
Oh, they botched it alright.
As someone well versed in inhaling Nitrous Oxide, why not not just use Nitrous Oxide? That'd be a quick way out, and it's cheap, you can buy enough to kill a person on Amazon for like $30. Even if you fuck it up, they're unconscious and feeling nothing.
Same reason they don't just OD them on morphine: those are enjoyable drugs, and we can't be giving our death row inmates that.
There's functionally no difference. The way that they messed this up would have still created suffering because they weren't letting carbon dioxide escape.
The suffocation feeling comes from CO2 buildup, not lack of oxygen. The same issue can happen with nitrous oxide if you don't let the CO2 escape.
Also, and keep in mind I have never killed myself using this method, so I don't know first hand, but, nitrogen is lighter than carbon dioxide, so if the person had 100% pure nitrogen to breathe, and no carbon dioxide, and is maintained with their head near the top of the pod, they would have died fast and allegedly without feeling it.
However, I am absolutely convinced that the people responsible for this execution did research on how to make this method as painful as possible (done right, it is apparently euphoric, and there is NO WAY they would even remotely take the risk of this happening), so they probably went out of their way to have a nitrogen-oxygen mix (like our atmosphere), but with lower amounts of oxygen, and forced the person to stay in a position that would guarantee they would die from CO2 asphyxiation rather than nitrogen.
It is even more inhumane than just using CO2 (as is done in meat "production"), because it prolongs the suffering quite a lot... The whole point of using CO2 on animals is to expedite the process... at the expense of their suffering.
CO2 is also cheap and safer for human workers.
Nitrogen is undetectable with human senses, whereas you'll instantly know if you enter an area with a high CO2 concentration. CO2 is also heavier than air, so it tends to stay in the "pit" they lower the animals into.
I'm going to take a wild guess here and say no one knows. The folks who put the mask on the dude are probably not any sort of experts in masks, gas, or not being an ass, and everyone in this thread is speculating.
The liquid? It would be excruciating. Burning your insides with frostbite.
You're thinking of liquid nitrogen. Nitrous oxide is commonly found in whip cream cannisters, and is actually quite pleasurable imo.
Drowning in whip cream? You could probably just eat your way out.
agustus gloop soundin' ass
Look. Execution is inhumane. You can't make it gentle, peaceful, or nice. All you can do is make it quick, which it sounds like they failed to do here. But if the good people of Alabama aren't comfortable with someone struggling for half an hour and then dying, they shouldn't execute people at all.
That said, the person quoted in this article is the executed's spiritual advisor. If I was Smith's spiritual advisor, I'd also be claiming the method was inhumane, violent, and awful. The reality is that it's a lot more cruel that Smith went back into the execution chamber despite them botching the job the first time than that they half-assed the nitrogen asphyxiation. It was an untested method, but every method of execution has a first person to be executed with it.
If your society is bickering over which way it should kill the condemned, you've already ceded the moral high ground. We have already solved execution, and we've had it solved for decades, even centuries arguably. Hanging, firing squad, electrocution, beheading, lethal injection--every method has its proponents and detractors, but every method is to the same end. If you're too squeamish for what happened in Alabama, an alternative method of killing people isn't going to fix that for you. The solution is staring you right in the face, and it's life without parole.
Well said.
Yes, the person who actually cares about the person being killed speaks up for the person being killed. Does that make their opinion less valid than all the liars who said he was going to just pass peacefully, which of course did not happen?
... Yes. Yes it does. It's literally his job. It doesn't make the opinion invalid, but it absolutely makes it less valid than the opinion of a neutral observer. That's just what bias is.
A lot of people want the US to stop supporting Israel killing Palestinians. Is that happening?
Governments often act against the wishes of the people. Did everyone in Alabama agree this man should die this way?
2edgy4me
I don't support capital punishment.
But hypoxia in humans is well studied. Unless they were using monumental stupid gas like CO2 (which triggers your breathing reflex) then the problem wasn't the method, in principle.
I wouldn't put it past a execution supporter to fuck it up somehow, though.
Use a bolt gun. It is good enough for the cows and pigs it is fast, it probably hurts but likely less time than even a needle.
I suggest starting by testing it out on the person that though slow suffocation for 25 minutes was humane.
another good one. Not quite as theatrical as a canon execution, but a funny idea nonetheless.
I feel like I have heard someone say it tastes better that way. I'm sure that would make it justifiable.
Pro Life!
“Pro-life” is just the label they put on it to seem pious. It’s not pro-life. It’s anti-women. With conservatives the suffering is the point.
personally i think we should start doing a slightly modified version of the traditional british canon execution.
For those who aren't familar, you strap a dude to the front of a canon, with a dud charge (i don't believe there is a projectile) and then set it off and run. Apparently it's pretty "spectacular" I say we do the same thing but delete the head in the process. Or perhaps add a canon ball because why not.
If we're executing people theres no need to pretend what we're doing is "good"
Too expensive and dangerous. A 2-ton tungsten cube dropped on the head is quick, painless, cheap, and puts on a show that can be cleaned up with a power washer.
We’re going to adopt your proposal but all that’s in the budget is a 45 lb plate from a local gym that closed down. Next execution is scheduled for next week, we hope to see you there!
Apparently, getting compressed by seawater inside a collapsing carbon fibre tube at a depth of 8kms is ultra quick.
Maybe we should just force condemned prisoners to test-pilot oceangate submarines.
actually, i like this idea. I think someone else mentioned just dropping a massive concrete cube on people for execution. It's a funny one for sure.
Tungsten is not cheap, also it might fracture
It costs about $1.25m to execute one person currently. 2 tons of tungsten costs $60k spot, $240k with government contract as a one-time purchase. If it were to become damaged, it can be recycled into a new state sanctioned penal murder cube. Given the price of tungsten will increase in value approximately 100% per decade, it is a viable government investment.
Elect me to be king of America. I will balance the budget and establish a stranger economy with a dollar backed by state sanctioned penal murder cubes and other innovative and cost-effective measures. We will all be equal in death and that is a promise you can count your votes on.
I can't agree with this, everyone knows you're supposed to reuse before recycle. The murder cube will look way more badass with some chips and cracks in it
You act like running a country is hard. The only hard part of running America is hiding all your bribes.
Under my administration I will have a website that will clearly show contributions to my throne with one of those donations thermometers that will be updated live and never surpass 7/8th full because the goal is always just a bit more money. Under it you will find about 10 clickbait user-targeted ads, a leaderboard, loser board, and the last 10 donations. There will also be links to my Patreon, Venmo, CashApp, Fansly, and Onlyfans. I am all about transparency and honesty in my rule.
I will use those mandatory contributions to pay for universal healthcare and cutting edge wars of aggression against states with viable economic exploitation possibilities or usable land for battery factories to supply a green infinite rail system that services all major cities without using fossil-fuels to move people and goods.
Subscribe
Hello? It's called "lobbying" and you don't have to hide anything.
And it's reusable!
Environmentally safe!
tungsten isn't cheap. look up the prices
and that's a pretty small rod
Only if they eat glitter as part of their last meal.
When is America going to learn that you can't punish murder with murder? You are literally saying "rules for thee but not for me."
Iran's hanging people in public, America gasses them with private viewing.
For your consideration.
I don't know anything about this other than the guy most have been pretty terrible to be on death row but even a brutal killer should have some rights nobody deserves to die like that
From another report:
Well, that would certainly make things worse for the prisoner and the witnesses.
If that's the case, then he wasn't going to be unconscious in seconds, as it would be expected by breathing the gas.
Instead, he inadvertently caused himself a lot of unnecessary suffering.
That's okay next time we'll just run a tube down his throat! That's not cruel at all!
Or maybe we put them in a room and fill it with the nitrogen gas. Some kind of... Chamber.
It's not really about the nitrogen. Earth's atmosphere is 78% nitrogen already. It's the absence of oxygen that's fatal. Our bodies don't sense a lack of oxygen, just a surplus of CO2. The idea is to remove all the oxygen and the CO2. It's a slow suffocating process but, in theory, the subject would only experience falling asleep. Of course that assumes it's done properly and the subject isn't panicking, neither of which seem likely.
We do it for pigs! Except we use CO2, because it's cheap and apparently we don't give a fuck about pigs.
I'm a rancher and meat lover and still the fact that the slaughterhouse industry chooses to gas animals with CO2 disgusts me. On my farm we dispatch with a rifle shot to the brain, the animal is dead immediately.
Honestly that's the choice I would take if I had to be executed. Though nitrogen gas is fine too, I used to do confined space work and have seen many examples about how you don't even know that you're dead.
No no, too cruel. That would risk them hurting themselves when they fall over. We must strap them tightly in place upside down for security purposes, and then put a tube down (up?) their throat. And if we accidently put it down their food hole
then that's just a bonusthen it was probably their fault for struggling.For the record, fuck the death penalty.
I think a mask, which I assume they used, is far better in this context. Just like being at the dentist.
But in medically assisted suicide, an injection is used (sometimes drugs that a patient can take themselves), and it is by far the most respectful, humane way to do it.
If a prisoner is going to hold their breath and make it worse than it needs to be, you can't fault the method.
That said, the situation was still horrible from what's been described.
If a natural human response messes up your execution, you should absolutely blame the method.
Do you try to hold your breath when you get gas at the dentist? It would be aweful.
You can't control how some people are going to act.
Some faint when they see a needle, some vomiting when they are electrocuted. Some soil themselves before a hanging or firing squad.
I'm not saying I support execution or the method, but it's obvious that this could have gone much smoother had the prisoner not try to intentionally hold their breath.
It quite literally should have been very relaxing, quick, and as respectful as you can expect for an execution.
Right, they were trying to not die. That is what everybody will do in this scenario. That's the kind of thing that happens when you murder somebody, the victim is generally opposed to your plan, and so they typically do not do as you wish. An execution that plans to have the victim of it go along with the plan is simply idiotic.
If execution is the punishment, there really won't be a perfect way to do it, not without the prisoner's cooperation.
Really, this would have been a much better way to go than electrocution, which is traumatizing for everyone involved.
Keep in mind, this guy survived lethal injection, so maybe he was simply trying to cheat death a second time.
If the person we're killing struggles then it's not our fault? Really? Did my sarcasm make you think I actually supported this bullshit?
I'm saying that in this specific case, if he was holding his breath, then it caused considerably more suffering than it needed to.
I'm offering an explanation as to why witnesses saw him struggle so much, not saying that one way is better than another... to execute someone is going to be horrible no matter how it happens.
It didn't have to be at all though. We don't have to keep doing this.
I don't disagree.
Come on, isn't this america? Why don't they just shoot prisoners?! It's quick, cheap and they love shooting, don't they? Coming up with so many twisted ways to kill a person just to do it differently than the Nazis. If even Belarus is still officially shooting their people, why isn"t the greatest country in the world?
/s because I can't handle this
From a purely academic/scientific perspective, is there a reason why they do not administer some form of benzodiazepine to gently sedate the prisoner before conducting the execution protocol? I'm not a medical professional, but I do have prescription benzo and it works miraculously in calming me down and lets me drift off to an incredibly deep sleep.
They’re worried about the prisoner becoming addicted.
pharmaceuticals manufacturers won't sell you this stuff, this already happened with lethal injection
taiwan (?) gets this well, as far as you can get death penalty well. prisoner is sedated with injectable benzos and then shot, no pain, no consciousness at all, very hard to fuck it up and no pretence of subtlety
Medical professionals, particularly doctors who have sworn an oath against causing harm, refuse to take part in the executions. This is partly why lethal injections are so hit and miss. Even if you can get the drugs, the dosages are tricky. IV placement is a skill. All of it being done by untrained individuals leads to a high rate of failure- and that was before the pharmaceutical companies started refusing to supply prisons.
I would imagine that if benzos became part of the nitrogen hypoxia protocols prisons would then have a hard time sourcing them, which is terrible for those other inmates who might need them for other reasons (anxiety, alcohol withdrawal, seizures)
Cost
Seriously, fuck USA.
Youre just jealous pal. You wish you could be an American. /s
Ok, I do. The idea that I can endure something like this is the bollocks. And also you can meet people that can't read. What a greatness!
I imagine the "eXpErImEnTaL jAb!" group is fine and dandy with experimental murder.
Barbaric.
I'm waiting for the witch trials to restart in the US.
IDK about you guys, but in raising our kids we believed it was important that they know where meat comes from. So when slaughtering poultry the kids help out. Maybe apply the same thing here?
If you support capital punishment, then you must sign up for firing squad duty. If less than 50% of voters sign up for firing squad duty, then the death penalty is abolished.
Talk is cheap, conscience is expensive!
How does the delivery method here differ from the euthanasia setup in Switzerland?
IIRC, Switzerland used a hood over the patient, or an airtight pod, that was flooded with nitrogen. It pushed out all other gases so the patient just fell unconscious due to hypoxia without the discomfort caused by CO2 poisoning.
The execution method used a mask, like a rebreather. The nitrogen delivery was inadequate and the convict was able to breathe in some oxygen, either from less-than-pure nitrogen gas, or gaps around the mask.
The person who chooses euthanasia will also be choosing to breathe normally so they don't get a buildup of CO2 from holding their breath.
the swiss method is automated, and calculated.
sounds like there was a guy here goin 'should i have turned the air off?'
Nitrogen gas would be administered through a facemask while the person is restrained (essentially suffocation) ... so hardly a peaceful death by choice.
People who are being euthanized are doing it voluntarily and will breathe intentionally to get the peaceful effects of losing consciousness and drifting off. They won't be panicking, or trying not to die.
I assume they also have the option to stop at any time, so they are fully in control of the process.
Because it's ok to use a human as a “guinea pig”.
I guess they should have killed a random selection of people with nitrogen first, so that it wouldn't be an "untested" method.
Good that there is extensive evidence on the effectiveness of (brutal) death sentences as means to reduce crime!
Oh wait...
Weird, everything I saw on Lemmy until yesterday was about how humane and painless this method is, without any suffering. Seems that the tone has changed
as with anything, it can be fucked up... and leave it to this backwoods state to fuck it up.
like if he chose 'firing squad' and the squad start from the legs up. ya know, for target practice. go 2nd amendment.
The nitrogen assisted suicide used a different delivery method. The mistake was using a mask for the execution.
So then what do you use?
Many commenters here have addressed it - use an airtight chamber or pod, and flood it with nitrogen to evacuate other gases. The problem was likely that the inmate was able to breathe in some oxygen through gaps around the mask.
Not enough attention was paid to the delivery mechanism and most of the attention was on Nitrogen gas in the abstract. The lawsuit was a total scattershot approach of throwing everything at the wall in order to delay or prevent this execution. It made it too easy to focus on the things that were absolutely wrong and not examine the delivery mechanism more closely.
And I'll own my part in that - the articles being posted contained a lot of bad science that stood to be corrected. The fact that the mechanism for delivery was a tiny mouth & nose mask that didn't dilute or remove the CO2 wasn't explained - probably because of the clear lack of understanding of how Nitrogen asphyxiation works.
Like, I might argue cottage cheese is safe and humane to feed someone, but when you fire a tub of it out of a cannon into someone's face, I will concede there are ways to do it inhumanely if you are sufficiently stupid or determined, but that shouldn't detract from the argument.
Nitrogen asphyxiation in and of itself is a humane way to go and should be preserved as an option while capital punishment remains. However, it must be performed correctly.
It's humane when done properly, this one sounds botched. Which was probably the point, given that cruelty is part of the death sentence system.
If the person is aware it is happening it can't be humane because they can hold their breath and will still get the effects of suffocation. Plus the whole awareness of being killed.
Oxygen deprivation won't kill you fast enough to not notice what is going on if you know it is going to happen.
That's the point of using nitrogen though. If you replace all the breathable air around a person, they're not going to notice anything is wrong. The pain and distress mostly comes from suffocation and suffocation comes from excess CO2 in the lungs and body. If there is no gaseous exchange in the lungs, there will be no suffocation, you just pass out and eventually die of hypoxia.
Nitrogen is used in Switzerland for assisted suicide, you go in a sealed pod, and at the press of a button all air is replaced by nitrogen and you die.
If the person knows they are in a chamber to be put to death and they want to live then they will know something is wrong and will try to hold their breath.
Mask or room are not stressful if the person does want to die or doesn't know what is going on. You have to breathe willingly for the process to work without stress.
So don't let them know the exact moment that the nitrogen is coming.
Look, I hate the death penalty and I think it should never be used. But if it's going to be done and there's no way I can stop that, I can at least recognize that there are ways it could be done that are relatively humane. Nitrogen gas asphyxiation is relatively humane, but as always with the caveat that you don't hopelessly botch the attempt.
These Alabama yahoos seem to be fundamentally incapable of not botching their execution attempts.
Executions have specific steps that include setting a time and place that cannot be bypassed for surprise. Don't forget that it is a common practice for a person of faith to be present, and it isn't like you can spring something on them too and there is no reason that they would need to keep the surprise a secret.
How about we just stop killing people? He was in jail for decades already, what did making him suffer a terrible death accomplish?
So change that step. Why is that particular step impossible to alter? You're making up rules specifically to make the execution more traumatic.
That would of course be the ideal outcome. But the problem is that many jurisdictions, such as Alabama, are insistent on it. So if they're going to do it and we can't stop them from doing it, why not at least try to get them to do it in a humane manner?
All of my advice to Alamaba would be prefaced with "you shouldn't kill this guy at all, but if I can't stop you, then you should at least..." And nitrogen gas asphyxiation is definitely near the top of my "you should at least..." suggestions. As long as you do it right. The victim having sufficient forewarning to hold his breath is doing it wrong.
Isn't it the same way they let sick people kill themselves? I remember seeing a recent story about someone using a new capsule. They get inside it; it fills with nitrogen; and they drift away.
I'm no fan of the death penalty. Just genuinely interested in whether I'm correctly remembering that the best known voluntary method matches the new execution method.
Apparently they thought they could skimp on the capsule and just use a mask. Cheap and evil.
The key difference is that you need something to be actively removing the CO2, not just replacing the O2 with nitrogen.
Suffocation, as in the choking and suffering, is caused by carbon dioxide buildup, not lack of oxygen.
In humane suicide or confined space accidents, there's no oxygen but you can freely get rid of CO2. It's why workers test before going into sewer pipes and wear safety harnesses and sensors, and setup ventilation hoses. Without them they wouldn't even notice they were dying until they got loopy and fell over.
Method is important. The medium is the same (nitrogen) But putting an "oxygen" mask on someone and plumbing it to nitrogen is a different method than putting someone in a chamber that is sealed and the oxygen and exhaled carbon dioxide* are quickly displaced.
*Carbon dioxide is what makes you feel like you're suffocating.
Sick people want to die and will breathe normally, which is what makes it painless. Resisting causes the suffering.
I'm still here saying that. Alabama fucked up something that should've been dead simple. Sealed mask with a one way valve, hooked directly up to nitrogen. That or an anoxic chamber for the victim. I'm against capital punishment but if it's going to happen, nitrogen is still the way to go.
Yeah. Turns out they shouldn't have used an untested execution method. Especially when the judge made a blatantly unconstitutional decision to kill a man anyways. Clearly Alabama has no problem testing on humans.
It's a well-tested method, they botched the methodology.
https://www.ladbible.com/news/us-news/kenneth-smith-execution-euthanasia-pod-creator-193400-20240125
Well shit, they should have at least used a full face covering or a hood at minimum.
Where does it say in that article that it's well-tested or that they botched it?
Considering he's an expert on the matter, I assume he would have said if these past events he witnessed went poorly.
Look I can't help but feel deceived.
Every single time the death penalty was brought up, nitrogen asphyxiation was touted as a humane alternative. There were always claims that it would be painless, and that the process itself was extremely well understood. It was usually further implied that the reason states don't do this was because death penalty advocates wanted the prisoner to suffer as long as possible.
Yet the second nitrogen asphyxiation became a viable option, the very same people touting it lined up against it. Suddenly it was completely unproven. Suddenly it was wholly inhumane and inflicted suffering.
It's so incredibly obvious that the push for nitrogen asphyxiation was at least in part a bad faith argument by people who are philosophically opposed to the death penalty.
Being philosophically opposed to the death penalty is a valid opinion, but the dishonesty makes me much less inclined for me to take these people seriously.
I don't think I'm unique in that regard. Nobody likes being deceived or lied to.
Complain that execution is wrong, not that the method was unpleasant.
Every day I wake up and say: "what the fuck, America?!"
America is such a funny place. They dont have a problem with execution just experimental ones...
Many of us have a problem with all executions. And capital punishment was illegal in America from 1962-1976 until the Supreme Court reversed their original decision.
Ik i should have added /s to my comment but its still disturbing to me that there are people who are okay with execution.
There are but there are currently only 20 states that have the ability to execute death sentences, and that number is slowly going down luckily.
The only people I'm ok with killing are the ones we have undeniable poof for. Like the Uvalde school shooter. They have footage of him in the school with the gun and know he killed the kids. In my book he's OK to execute. if there's even a shred of doubt in anyone's case then execution should be off the books period.
The problem with that logic is that every criminal conviction is supposed to have "undeniable proof!"
No it's not. In the context of the justice system in question, reasonable doubt is a MUCH lower bar than undeniable proof.
It isn't supposed to be, though.
Edit: hey downvoter, what part of Blackstone's Ratio do you not fucking understand?
A reasonable doubt is less strict than undeniable proof. If I go outside and see that the lawn and road is wet then I can beyond a reasonable doubt ascertain that it has rained, but that's not undeniable proof. If I go outside and get rained on and measure that rainfall in a scientific way then that is undeniable proof. Blackstone's ratio is irrelevant; too many people are wrongfully imprisoned and executed on dubious evidence. We seem to fucking agree about that, so calm down.
I downvote comments that are obtuse or don't actually contribute to the conversation and I don't see anything wrong with that.
I can't see the hair that you're splitting here. If proof is deniable, then it's not beyond reasonable doubt.
There is a room with a candy bar in it, a biometric scan to enter, and a camera outside the only door.
You scan your retina to go in, you come out a few moments later, and after 5 minutes a security guard goes in, finds the room intact, and also sees the candy bar gone.
By deductive reasoning, you took the candy bar beyond a reasonable doubt.
There is a remote possibility that after you left and before the guard arrived, a mission impossible crew came in from the ceiling and took the candy bar specifically to frame you. Or perhaps the entire candy bar quantum tunnelled or was teleported by aliens in an event that denies conventional understanding.
The guy you replied to is making this point. If it is in any way theoretically possible that guilt is in question, no execution. Reasonable doubt as a standard assumes the natural order of the universe and logic are preserved such that inferences are possible.
But that also seems like a foundation that "undeniable proof" would rest on. If the only way for a proof to be denied is for the "natural order of the universe and logic" to not apply, then there's simply no such thing.
I don't support the execution of the Uvalde shooter.
What does killing him accomplish?
Justice? Not really.
Restitution? Not at all.
Vengeance? Not really.
Deterrence? Not really.
Closure for the families of the victims? I suppose.
I don't know about this case, but some families of victims oppose the death penalty, even in the case of the murder of their children.
Some reasons for this view could be religious beliefs, or the view that death is the easy way out, or the deterrence value of being able to point at a person in jail, or the potential for the person to do some good in the world.
These people would object to closure for them being used as justification for killing their child's murderer.
It's not fair to victim families to make them choose life or death for a murderer. It would be a decision they'd have to live with forever. We can't do that to them.
My opinion is that capital punishment should only be used where a person guilty of a 'capital crime' can't be reliably imprisoned.
Ie I'm not sure Iraqis were wrong to execute Saddam Hussein. I don't think it would be wrong for countries that struggle with corruption in their penal system to execute cartel leaders (that have been convicted of 'capital crimes'). War crimes, insurrection leaders, that sort of thing.
Well said. Great point about Saddam.
One thing and one thing only: saves tax payer money long term.
Nope. The math has been done on this many times, and death sentence is more expensive than life without parole. And that's according to the State's own numbers.
"Funny"
Anyone still want to use the cool nitrogen based suicide pods from Austria?
They tortured him to death.
Bullet to the brain next time.
Shit alternatively just strap an explosive to their head. Seems to be working for Russians in Ukraine when they wanna die.
State sactioned torture and murder. This was no execution, this was torturing someone to death.
As someone who gets nitrogen at the dentist office with a mask I have a theory that it was just him consciously fighting it. It’s positive pressure nitrogen that you just breath in at normal breath rate. If you breath really hard you can displace the nitrogen and suck in some regular air. It sounds like he fought it which caused it to take longer. It is the standard human reaction to fight against one’s own death and I’m guessing he thought that if they held out long enough they would stop. If they are going to use a mask like that as opposed to a hood or chamber they really should sedate the person first.
You do not get 'nitrogen' at the dentist's office.
You are given a solution of normal air with a small amount of nitrous oxide (N2O) to relax you. You are never deprived of oxygen, since the dentist isn't trying to asphyxiate you.
...this is hilarious. The dentist gives you nitrous oxide (laughing gas), not straight up nitrogen.
The rest of the comment is perfectly valid, though. If I have a mask on my face and I know that it's feeding me a gas that will kill me, I'd do everything I could to dislodge it and hold my breath and whatnot that I could. A far better approach would have been to fill the chamber with nitrogen, ideally without any sort of obvious hissing noise or other tell.
And a far far better approach would have been to not kill the guy in the first place, but I guess there's no stopping that particular bloodlust right now.
No shit Sherlock. Someone who likes having their breathing restricted during sexual escapades would also fight it and suffer if someone was actively trying to kill them.
If this is the case I wonder if it was his attempt to it fail like the first attempt. After that he may have had a good case to go life without parole rather than face another attempt at execution.
Because the nitrogen that you and I get at the dentist is enough to kill us… That's fucking stupid.
Wouldn't a firing squad machine be so much faster and more effective? Have 3 people push buttons only one button works. It's all a horrible mess, regardless of the method.
Forget death row inmates, I volunteer as tribute
Where's all the people that said we "do actually know what it does to people and it's painless" now?
I wonder how long Elizabeth Sennett struggled to live after Kenneth stabbed her to death. May she and her family rest in peace knowing justice has been served.
I mean if they on death row. Just hang them.
Says his religious advisor, who is against the death penalty.
I'm not sure what you think that has been added here.
But a 22 minute execution is torture.
I am against both the death penalty and torture.
22 minutes of drifting slowly off to sleep isn’t torture.
Yes, I too, can be described as ‘struggling for my life’ while peacefully drifting off to sleep….
And as I said, you are listening to a very biased witness.
How do you know that he drifted slowly off to sleep though?
They don't. They're just an asshole on the Internet.
Were you there? You haven't shared your 1st hand witness account.
And one of the reporters who was there:
Has anyone offered an account that contradicts this? Because I know the state of Alabama didn't.
The simplest explanation for what went wrong here is that Kenny's religious advisor is lying and we need to ask a neutral observer what actually happened.
No, the simplest explanation is that Alabama is filed with fucktards who didn't research the correct way to perform this task. They used a mask instead of a hood. Also, this same guy (and another guy last year) SURVIVED lethal injection in Alabama because they fucked it up. It took Alabama 5 hours to try killing him with lethal injection last year, and they STILL failed. What makes you think Alabama started a first of its kind process in the US and used it successfully?
I think you're putting too much emphasis on the geography here, this is just the nature of execution in America, it's what happens when medical personnel aren't involved, you end up with a flawed system, which it always has been. There were botched hangings there were botched electrocutions, there have been botched lethal injections all over the country, this is more an issue with capital punishment than it is location.
That's actually a much more complicated explanation.
Wait, you think a religious advisor lying is more likely than people who were incompetent three times last year on a well established procedure being incompetent on a brand new procedure?
Yes, that's why I said that we need a report from someone with no skin in the game.
But I pretty much assume that religious advisors are always lying.
Certainly not an unbiased observer.
https://www.treadbylee.com/p/never-alone-the-suffocation-of-kenneth
Bring on the downvotes but this guy is not some hero Elizabeth Sennett was stabbed to death by him I am sure her fate was worse.
Its not hard to not kill people.
The irony of this statement could not be thicker.
We judge people not on how they treat their best, but by how they treat their worst.
It’s easy to be nice to good people
Calling a method of execution barbaric in it's practice isn't the same as saying the executed is a hero. If you're not willing to engage with this subject, then please don't make one up to get angry at others over.
Sorry. I can't emphasize with criminals. It's impossible for me. The only thing that is weird to me is why on earth you took almost 40 years to execute a prisoner? It doesn't make sense. And other thing. I hope all the 4 criminals get the same punishment as well. It looks like the idiot paid the most.
Oh and other thing for all the softy snowflakes. Let's hope your mom, sister, granny, father, brother, never get killed. It's way too easy to talk from your comfortable positions.
Read the article:
"We didn’t see somebody go unconscious in 30 seconds,” said Red Hood. “What we saw was minutes of someone struggling for their life.”
You have absolutely no evidence that this is true, you're just parroting after-the-fact propaganda while entirely ignoring the good science on offer in this thread.
Those boots must be real tasty, huh?
Which boots?
The bootlickers are the ones supporting the death penalty without the lack of suffering.
Seriously whose boots are getting locked here?
I think their point is you're buying a version of events that very much goes against reality as they slowly suffocated for 20+ minutes.
A little bit different than bootlicking don’t you think?
Bootlicking is giving in to authority without question.
No one here has any authority
"If"
That is the science in this thread, if you could be arsed to read and comprehend it. But you'd rather waste your time with nonsense so whatever.
Right, but they clearly didn't as they suffocated over 20+ minutes.
I'm not sure what your point is.
Except for the 22 minutes of struggling to breath. Unless you're discounting those by saying he was unconscious the moments before his death. If that's the case, most forms of what we consider painful death are after at least a few moments of unconsciousness.