Guilty conscience meat eaters use concern trolling to salvage their own self-esteem. In my experience, those expressions of worry are back handed compliments at best. They never come from people who are in better shape than I am and they don't come from people with better nutrition either.
I lost 58kg and the only things I ever heard was concern trolling from my friends that resented me for doing what they could not.
Never heard word one about my body while I was unhealthy and unhappy, and the shitty remarks started as soon as the weight reduction became noticeable.
"Woah slow down, don't want you to disappear!"
"You've proven your point! You can eat a donut!"
"Why do you want to be miserable and only eat seeds?"
"Fuck dude you're vanishing! Eat a hamburger!"
"You think you're better than everyone now!"
"It's actually really unhealthy to be as lean as you've become."
"Don't like hanging out anymore, you make me think about every molecule I put in my damned mouth!"
"You look like a skeleton now."
Wow those are shitty people. Good on you for losing that weight, as a hefty fellow it's fucking haaaaard work and you should be proud of the effort you put in!
I made so many changes in my journey. I taught myself to cook and made every meal from scratch ingredients... for 6 months. I'm reminiscing now thinking about how many tortillas I've pressed, sauces I've made, things I've fermented, and hundreds of hours on the cutting board. How many times I ordered a "kid size" pizza or sundae on my "cheat" days lol
I ran (poorly), swam, rode, lifted and burned so many calories. I meditated every day and did monthly therapy to help with the mental stress of the physical and lifestyle changes. That is all time, effort, pain, money, and sacrifice.
Every day without wavering I made a hundred difficult little choices that prioritized my goals vs my desires/old patterns. Food everywhere and people genuinely insulted when I wouldn't partake with them or in their way. Watching my friends literally not enjoy their meal from their own shame, just because my serving was conspicuously smaller. Dealing with my biology compelling me to eat one way while I was consciously reprogramming myself to eat another way. Massive social pressures from all sides.
I never really even told anybody of my goals or changes. I didn't make it my personality or a thing. Never spoke of it once or advocated anything to my friends. Only spoke about being slimmer when specifically asked.
That's why it was so hurtful to undertake such tremendous responsibility for my own personal transformation, and then have people internalize it, make my journey about how them and how they feel shitty when they look at me, then make a snide or sinister comment. Only my best friend of 30 years gave me any positive feedback.
The whole thing was kind of a rough ride. Worth it in the end, but wow it was so much more than just eating less.
Thanks for listening. I really appreciate your comment a lot!
Such and interesting read and I hope you found it worth it in the end..! You've verbalised a lot of my experiences with quitting alcohol. It was the hardest thing I've done and lost a lot of 'friends' along the way. But ended up happier, healthier, and genuinely enjoying life again.
Good for you my friend! Yes it was the same thing when I quit alcohol 8 years ago! Quickly find out that people are happy for you to quit drinking until you actually do it, then it's like ... what you think you're better than me? Come on have a drink!
Wow this is the truth of the post. Not just that it ia demeaning that vegans get harassed but why it's counter to the reality of the effort being made.
Good on you, yeah you can't downplay the fortitude required to make such life altering changes. It's so easy to slip back into the status quo. That being said for anyone else reading, if you've tried, and failed, remember that you got further along than if you never tried at all. Keep at it, don't beat yourself up, you can do it!
Ah that's interesting and something I hadn't considered. I wasn't really on any meds except Nexium at the time. Is your heart medication dose dependent on weight? I genuinely don't know anything about the conditions or treatment.
What do you credit for the 12kg regaining? Just wondering, my weight still swings about 8kg this way and that but I seem to have generally stabilized in a range.
Is your heart medication dose dependent on weight?
It's somewhat interesting, because the main heart meds are metabolic blockers (ramipril and bisoprolol, respectively an angiotensin-converting enzime inhibitor, and a beta1-selective blocker that inhibits cAMP phosphorylation), so they can only block certain metabolic paths and once that's done, they can't have more effect no matter the dose (they're basically non-overdoseable).
But... at the same time, I had a diuretic added on (dapagliflozin) as part of a combined diabetes treatment, that used to work fine at the top weight, but at the bottom weight turned out to both reduce blood volume, impacting blood pressure, and lower blood sugar by too much, so that one had to go.
What do you credit for the 12kg regaining?
Reduction in stress (an extreme stress peak is what made me lose most of the weight), along with depression, and general despair due to a double back hernia that left me barely able to walk. I'm slightly better now after some physiotherapy, but still moving way less than before, so it's anyone's guess how it will go. It also made me switch to a worse diet, since I can't stay up long enough to prepare healthier stuff.
I'm gonna be honest, I wanted to argue against this, but I can't deny it. I'm part of a relatively overweight family (actually mostly because of immune system problems that thankfully I didn't inherit) and all I get from my parents are "You're looking skinny" or "You're worrying too much about weight" just because I want to exercise and eat well. Even then, I'm ~20lbs over weight. To be devil's advocate, I think part of it is that overweight people have struggled with problems of being too hard on themselves before, and so don't want to you fall into that, but go too far the other way.
The conversation of overweight/vegans doesn't exactly overlap perfectly, but it made me think of it.
Virtually nobody who eats meat feels guilty about it
I felt guilty about it and became a vegetarian and, once I leaned about how milk and eggs lead to death and suffering, a vegan. I have been so for 10 years plus now.
Animals are there to be food.
Yes, but only in the same sense that woman are there for the plesure and serving of men. It's a social construction and is, as it thankfully has with the perception of woman, changing.
If there was a life form that could eat me it would, and I'd have to accept that.
I don't think so. I think you'd ramble in about how unethical it is to eat a sentient beeing and how cruel this hypothetical lifeform is. Because that's how we are build. It's easiest for us to feel empathie towards our own sorry asses.
You can learn to expand your empathie tough. Start here. Watch it completely. No skipping. Then we can talk:
We bred them to be like that tho there were wild versions of chickens. Ever seen a wild turkey? Fuuuuck. Talk about risk if you miss that things taking an eye out. Bovines were easier prey but in the wild would have been protected by bulls, I think?
Okay, let someone murder you and eat you if they are hungry then. Plenty of people go hungry each year, why don't we eat each other? Or why won't you capture and eat my dog?
This, ladies, gentlemen, and nonbinaries in finery, is what fascism looks like. "I'm biologically superior", "I can do whatever I want with lesser beings", "the whole world exists to serve me", "I can create an industrial machine of killing for my pleasure". That's called fascism. And we don't tolerate fascists.
If there was a life form that could eat me it would
Yeah, it's called COVID-19. It wants to use your cell nuclei to grow its children from your body's energy stores, and it doesn't mind if it shuts down your respiratory system until you can't breathe. And there are a hundred deadly diseases like it.
Every time you wash your hands, blow your nose with a tissue, or cover your mouth to cough, you are showing you value life above the supposed right of predators to eat you. And that's okay. Everything has a right to live and that's okay.
Assuming you're asking about things like impossible and beyond meat. They are generally not "healthy" but one stark difference is they don't have cholesterol.
Whether something is healthy or not is very contentious in the first place, especially with how much misinformation there is out there.
I just try to read the labels on the replacements I buy, and most of them just have many random vegetables and stuff, with a seemingly good balance in nutrients and so on. Maybe there is stuff I'm missing, but I don't see much bad that can be in there.
I think the most important thing is to just have a relatively balanced diet.
I'd say that they are as healthy as the burger king meat they are substituting. I wouldn't eat either but if you are there, picking either is equally bad so whatever.
The unhealthiest part about them is just gonna be that they're salty, fried and greasy, just like other fast food. It's just a lump of plant fibres (usually peas or wheat these days, I find) thrown in a frier.
I assure you these people are not eating healthy meals lol, it's all bad faith because the idea of them not eating meat makes them feel threatened about the size of their peepee.
Scrolling down half i the comments has give me a true headache. Why do you guys feel the need to explain your consumption to vegans? Not like we have not heard your "arguments" a thousand times before.
Oh wait, you arent trying to justify your actions to us but to yourself?
I've done both vegan and keto for over a year at some point during my life and what I will say is that I naturally cover my nutrition bases through preferences and desires, while vegan though I had to hunt down (forgive the pun) b12 and complete proteins combinations a little more diligently to cover my nutrition needs.
Or put differently, I think it's easier to mess up a vegan diet than a keto one.
Many people start with the troll. it's nothing most vegans have not dealt with a lot.
the best part is though, the troll gets exposed to the arguments for being vegan. there is probably a reason why they are so concerned with belittling and debasing.
Long story short, they often convert.
Keep trolling bro.
I went to college with a girl who would make butter popsicles - she just stuck popsicle sticks into sticks of butter and froze them, then ate them like popsicles. She didn't have any kind of special diet, she just liked butter popsicles.
it's defensiveness. a person who eats 19 strips of bacon for every meal doesn't threaten the average omnivore. that person is arguing that they should do more of what they want to do anyway. the existence of a happy, healthy vegan, OTOH, threatens omnivores. it tells them that there is a choice other than meat, and what that does is force them to acknowledge that eating meat is a choice and that if you make that choice you're responsible for the consequences. if you live in a world where meat is necessary, let's call it the ferret diet because they're my favorite obligate carnivores, then you didn't really have a choice at all. as factory farming imposes cruelty on animals at the individual level and huge damage to the environment and climate on a collective level, the ferret diet allows you to say "🤷🤷 what are you gonna do?" veganism is an attempt to answer that question, and it's a valid one. there are plenty of people who don't eat any sort of animal product and are still happy and healthy. veganism threatens them because it makes the suffering they create a choice that they've made, rather than an inevitable consequence of being an obligate omnivore. bitching at vegans, trying to poke holes in vegan diets, all it is is an attempt to shed responsibility for your own life choices by pretending there never was a choice.
Vegan, on the other hand, excludes plenty of foods that are common sources of essential nutrients and especially protein.
Like what??? Seriously, except for B12 theres nothing a vegan diet doesnt have.
Pistachios are a full protein. Lentils Peas and Veggies make full proteins. What are you on about?
I think they mean if you were just to take your usual diet and remove certain items so as to make your diet keto friendly, you might be fine. But if you took a usual meat/dairy/egg diet and just stopped eating those fortified foods (without finding a substitution for those nutrients), you would be worse off.
Okay, i see what you mean. But i also see that that's a dumb way to think about it? Who changes their diet by just not eating certain foods anymore without incorporating something else.
Some of the most nutritionally complete foods we can eat like spinach and other such veggies are limited (though not excluded) on a keto diet, meanwhile there is no limit to how much of these you can eat as a vegan. But also food isn't just medicine or energy, it can also be poison, and other than refined junk it's going to be the animal foods that are some of the deadliest.
I'll agree with you that foods like wheat and rice are not very nutritious, but also they aren't likely to be the foods that kill you, and you can easily not eat them. Meanwhile keto is very hard to do without animal foods, for many people it's very hard to do even with animal foods. Keto doesn't just require you to exclude a list of foods like you sell it, it has very strict macro requirements which requires monitoring your intake of many of the allowed foods.
Vegan is fine if you're replacing the stuff you take out, not just skip it. It's easier now, but when vegan was just gaining traction, the alternatives weren't as plentyful as they are now.
You have a lot of bad information about keto. It certainly doesn't make you lethargic or miserable, and definitely doesn't starve your brain. Quite the opposite... it's being used therapeutically for Parkinson's disease One of the studies referenced in that article, found here is summarized this way
"More specifically, the symptoms that improved most after keto dieting were urinary problems, pain and other unpleasant sensations, fatigue, daytime sleepiness, and cognitive impairment. These findings are particularly profound because nonmotor symptoms ultimately represent the most disabling aspect of Parkinson’s disease."
Regarding energy levels most people report having much more energy, and I suspect your friends issue while in the army doing PT was related to electrolytes. People going on any kind of whole food diet, which keto tends to be, often find they get very little salt in their new diet since they're not eating processed food. People who work out or are otherwise very active often find they have to be intentional about adding salt to their diet or they will in fact find themselves tired and fatigued. Easy to remedy, and again a typical problem for anyone transitioning from a diet with lots of processed foods to one without.
There's been a lot more un-biased study of keto diets in recent years and a lot better science. It's not for everybody, but it's not intrinsically unhealthy and way better than the traditional high-carb, high-sugar, high-processed food diet.
Also, a keto diet does not specifically include or exclude red meat. That's an individuals choice, just like with virtually any other diet that includes animal protein.
I'm no nutritionist, but I'm reasonably sure that any reasonable diet, whether keto or vegan can be accomplished while maintaining proper nourishment.
The thing is, most people's diet isn't even providing full nourishment. There's usually something that's missing that people are simply not aware is missing, or they're getting in such low quantities that it's unhealthy. IMO, the main problem is a lack of education on the matter. I was taught the food pyramid in grade school. It's barely relevant, and it was literally the only diet and nourishment education I recieved from my first world primary/highschool education. Unless you are going into health science or nutritionist type college credits, nobody takes the time to learn anything further about it later on. They just eat, and don't really think about it. I certainly didn't for a very long time.
Additionally, when I learned about the food pyramid, the examples didn't really make a lot of sense to me, since at the time I had barely touched any food preparation tasks, nor dealt with food that wasn't ready to eat already (usually prepared by my parents), and I had no context for what a "grain" really was, or why bread was considered a "grain" in the pyramid. I was stupid. In many ways, I still am. Yet, later in life, I don't know of anyone who is running their meal plan through a professional nutritionist before making the food. I don't know of anyone who, even if they have a meal plan, even knows a nutritionist who can consult on whether the good that they eat will provide the nutrition that they actually need.
The general population seems to put most of their trust in food makers, the corporations that make ready to eat food, to have accounted for their nutritional needs. Places like fast food restaurants, normal restaurants and those that make recipes, and most of their interest is in making food you'll enjoy, more than food that will actually provide the nutrition you need.
On top of that, even most doctors won't, by default, order tests to ensure all of your nutritional needs are met, and unless you have a symptom resulting in a significant deficiency of something, you would never know if you're behind or not getting enough of something. I can hear the comments now, "but if they're not being affected, why does it matter?" .... The thing is, they are being affected, just not significantly enough for them to be able to draw a correlation or even really complain about it.
So at the end of the day, we're probably all malnourished in some way, or at least, there's a nontrivial amount of people who are unaware that they're malnourished, which isn't being caught, and nobody has the knowledge or understanding to know it's even happening. The education on nourishment is so lackluster that is easily forgotten by most and instead we learn about factorials and trigonometry which most people never use past highschool.
I'm summary, more people than you would expect are likely unaware that they're malnourished, and the education system would rather teach you maths you'll never use than ensure you can feed yourself properly. The whole thing is fucked, and it's ironic when people lecture or question anyone about their nourishment needs, given how little any average person has been taught about proper nourishment. Everything is fucked and everybody sucks.
Meanwhile in alpha gal allergy land (allergy to mammal, the only known sugar allergy and the only known "slow onset" allergy, now the third most common food allergy in the USA thanks to Lone Star ticks and climate change), I'm happy that non-dairy cheese has come lightyears in the past decade, but wish I could easily find chicken and turkey sausage that doesn't use beef casing. Miyoko Brand cashew cheese is amazing but SO expensive.
Vegans should see alpha gal allergy folks as their allies, I think. Margaret Atwood, in her MaddAdam trilogy, imagined that alpha gal allergy was spread by ecoterrorists looking to reduce global meat consumption. While that is fiction, I sometimes think everyone should get the allergy. Basically ALL mammal consumption would cease. You'd still have sheep, alpacas, etc. for fiber production, but it would be a global food revolution unparalleled in human history, exceeding even the agricultural revolution from producing fertilizer from atmospheric nitrogen.
I have literally stopped talking to a sibling becauase they think it is funny to make jokes about my veganism, or ask if I am still vegan (for life), or if I miss the taste of meat (no, I find the smell nauseating).
It is a lack of respect for life choices, made more loathesome because my choice is made on an ethical foundation, not a whim.
Honestly, that is just one reason. They are a jerk and a bully, like everyone else who comes on here feeling the need to dismiss veganism or claim feeling attacked by it.
Just like other kinds of prejudice, these negative reactions betray a profound level of ignorance that go beyond infuriating to pitiful.
nice strawman you've got there. people doing keto get harassed far more often about the bogus health implications of saturated fat. Shit I doubt the average person has ever even heard of anti-nutrients or thought twice about the nutritional value of plants beyond their prominent place in the antiquated food pyramid. but they know for a fact, duur fat=heart atak
Okay, but you do know that eating nothing but meat is bad for you? And eating buttloads of butter is not healthy? And vegetables have consistently proven health benefits?
There are insanely unhealthy versions of pretty much any diet. I know plenty of vegans who gain weight because they end up chasing the same bad eating habits in plant form. Eating excessive amounts of fruit can still qualify you as a vegan but it won't change the fact that you are on the fast track to diabetes. The dirtiest forms of dirty keto can lead to insane consumption of artificial sweetness or natural sugar substitutes which are riddled with their own health risks.
That said... Veganism and really vegetarianism to some degree is still a diet that people still seek for non-dietary motivations, and pretty much any restrictive diet is going to require a degree of finesse and knowledge to make sure that diet will be nutritionally sound. It's not out of bounds to be concerned about someone you care about in those terms.
Okay, but you do know that keto includes plenty of vegetables and is not "nothing but meat"? Spinach, broccoli, bell peppers, cucumbers, salad, asparagus, olives, eggplants, avocadoes etc
I had a friend at work years back who said she was vegetarian. She was really vegan, but at the time the term wasn't as well known. She didn't do it for some moral reason, it was because she was very heavy. After a few years she had lost a couple hundred pounds, and looked so different that thry had to take a new pic for her ID badge. She was healthy, and absolutely not "malnourished".
As a human, I think it is okay to eat people. Humans are currently overpopulating our planet and have completely taken over. We don't need that many humans. As a human, I may be very silly and cute, but when my species gets together to do something, we tend to make a big mess of it and just ruin everything. So we must reduce our population one way or another. Additionally, imagine how much meat one of us might have on our bones? Perhaps not as much as a cow, but when there are billions of us then that's like, billions of pounds of meat! Wow! You like meat right? I know I do. That's a lot of meat and it's just right there. I know that personally if any small dinosaurs came up to me and started chewing on my legs I'd let them do it. I don't need all my meat, you know?
Go green, eat human. Mother nature will thank you!
Sincerely,
- a human
Edit: oh no! I have made the human mistake of accidently saying I like meat on a vegan community post. This was a mistake because vegans do not like meat. I do not understand this because humans eat meat like all superior species. I do not understand why a human would want to eat only plants like human prey animals. I am a human and I like human meat, as it should be.
Edit 2: you know what, fuck this, y'all are way too dense. In what reality do people talk the way I was? Congrats, y'all ruined it.
Edit 3: since you only want very serious answers here's a serious answer: the problem with human meat has less to do with morals or ethics and more to do with health and safety. Because you are a human, eating human meat, you can contract whatever diseases the human had before death if the meat is undercooked.
Additionally, there are a lot of parasites, like the lowly tapeworm, which are """safe""" when a human consumes tainted animal meat; because the tapeworm thinks it's in a human and is content to hangout in your intestines. However, if you consume tapeworm eggs that were laid by a "human" tapeworm, the tapeworms that hatch will think they're in a pig and will have no issues burrowing through your muscles, internal organs and brain.
Another factor is that you are what you eat. There is a reason why humans typically don't eat other predators like lions or tigers, and that's because toxins like heavy metals tend to bioaccumulate in them.
Finally, most importantly, for reasons beyond my weak understanding of medical science, humans carry a high risk of prion diseases. Unlike the issues of parasites and diseases, you can not cook a human well enough to eliminate prions and still eat it. The human would be nothing more than ash because you'd have to cook the meat at thousands of degrees to destroy any potential prions the human might have been carrying. These are not something you fuck with. You cannot cure a prion disease. If you have the misfortune of eating something that has been contaminated with a prion, and one of your cells decided to do something with said prion, the only solution is to put your head between your legs and kiss your ass goodbye. You are now a dead man walking. You cannot be cured. A prion is not a virus. It is not a parasite, bacteria, or any form of fungus. It is simply a misfolded protein that your body thinks it can do something with. You will die. Your brain will look like swiss cheese. You will forget everyone you know and love, and there will be nothing you can do about it. Not only that, but again, for reasons beyond my understanding of medical science, your body will use that misfolded protein as a blueprint and will misfold other proteins to make them look like the prion. Your body will become a 3d printer for prions. Anyone who consumes your body will die.
Yes, yes! Humans are superior because they eat meat! Just like small dinosaurs do! But I eat more meat than they do. It is not fair. So I should share my meat with them! I do not need all of my human meat. I sit at my human computer all day, I do not need my human legs. If any small dinosaurs hid under my desk and ate my legs, I would not mind. They are hungry and need my meat, so I will let them have it.
humans are superior because we have tamed out environment to a degree that no other animal has been able to do. we are the top of the food chain and are in control.
I do not understand! I am not a cunt, I am a human, just like you! It is okay if you eat plants, but you won't grow big and fat if you only eat plants. More fat = more energy which means as a human, I am very tasty and filling! I respect my fellow predators and I want to ensure my meat is as tasty as I can make it. If any small dinosaurs showed up on my human doorstep and asked to come in, I would let them! They are very nice and like humans and will not hurt me, because I am a human and they like me because of that. So I am not a cunt, I am a very considerate human being who cares about their fellow species.
What's wrong with humans taking over? How is it your place to decide how many humans we need? Why must we reduce the population? Who is we? And how do humans mess things up?
As someone who regularly works with registered dietitians in clinical settings, some of which hold PhDs, please stop spreading misinformation from a place of hate and prejudice.
They posted peer-reviewed papers from medical nutrition research groups, what exactly would be these researchers incentive for pushing misinformation about diets?
No sources and racism........................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................
Dude, just do us all a favour and go back to twitter. You're like the drunk homeless guy at the bar that brings the mood down for everyone else. And I get that you're the kind of person that enjoys ruining things for other people, but can you just not? Just go outside or do something productive with your life instead?
Racialising penises is some fucking pathetic shit. Men who are confident in their masculinity don't need to tie it or their penis to notions of race. They love their penises (or lack thereof) no matter what their colour, because masculinity comes from within, and it is embodied by strength of independent will. Whether you abandon your own strength and rest your masculinity on the social construct of supremacy, or think that another man's race can overshadow your own independent manhood, you are pathetic, and unworthy to call yourself a man. The only identity you have succeeded in embodying is cowardice.
Humans are capable of eating an extremely broad variety of plants. Vegetarian diet is perfectly healthy for people. Vegan diet has only a few problems, which have already been solved. You can be vegan and live a very healthy life, but you have to supplement a few necessary nutrients. Meat has never been off the menu. It is possible to chose not to eat it, if you prefer that.
It's not about getting cancelled or politics, it's about living up to the ideal that humans are actually better than that, that we can feel empathy and sadness for other creatures suffering, and it's in our power to do something about it.
As someone who has done keto in the past and someone who has been a vegan for years I agree, at least in regards to myself. But the key difference is veganism is not a diet, what vegans eat is just a consequence of their ethics. Vegans are insufferable because animal ethics are a serious moral issue. I disagree with the pompous part though. I don't pat myself on the back for being vegan the same way I don't pat myself on the back for not committing various other moral abuses. I'm not contributing anything positive to the world by being a vegan, but I'm hopefully stepping on the rights of others less.
When I am cutting on a LCHF diet I’ll sometimes take food with me to gathering so that I can remain focused. So, I’m not drinking, I’m staying well under 30g of sugar per day and I’m super focused on that and want to maintain a streak.
Friends have become majorly hetup with me for refusing their famous carbonara or something and eating from my lunch box.
Now, I understand how “weird” that is and I’ll take that but it’s not rude to decide what goes into my body. Check yourself.
I mean feed a hamster a vegan diet and see what happens if there's another hamster with the vegan one... Missing out on some critical proteins and they will gladly eat their own kin to satisfy the missing nutrients
Just browsing 'all' I'm not coming in here to hate, in fact i do love Buddhist meals with vermicelli and cloud ear mushrooms, 髮菜, and imitation abalone (braised wheat gluten)
That hamster should have invested in farming technologies and processed foods so he could eat a more varied and cruelty-free diet.
Oh wait, that's humans! Humans have the ability to do those things. I get hamsters and humans confused a lot, too.
(By the way, I'm not vegan. I just see a lot of people who aren't vegan, posting in a vegan community, with bad arguments and boring takes. I cannot stand bad arguments.)
I've never understood full veganism. Is it not morally okay to consume animal products (such as milk or eggs) from actual free roaming and happy animals? And not the BS marketed "free range" products in the US.
Say I have 10 acres and keep a dozen or so chickens to roam around and eat all the ticks on my property, is it morally wrong to eat their eggs?
Society doesn’t work on edge cases. But for the sake of argument:
If that’s all the animal products you eat, these chickens are not selected through the common practice of grinding male chicks, the hens are going to die of old age, etc etc etc - for what I’m concerned you’re vegan.
Veganism is about ethics, not diet. Diet is a mere consequence. Lab grown meat is more vegan than coconut gathered by enslaved monkeys (yes it’s a thing).
So if you fine one such farm where animals are never killed or otherwise exploited then by all means, eat those eggs and call yourself a vegan. But something tells me you won’t find it.
Adding to this - I really want to emphasize how much of an edge case this is.
Around 60% of the world's population lives in urban environments, and only ~10-15% of the population works in agriculture where one might expect to encounter a scenario like this.
Living on 10 acres and raising chickens who you hug every night before bed and treat with the utmost respect is a nice ideal to strive for, but it is not achievable for most people, and there is no scenario where we maintain global meat & dairy consumption levels ethically/sustainably. Treating it as a viable solution is disingenuous because it's only a solution for a limited few.
A lot of places where all chickens die of old age and males don’t get killed as chicks. Really. Go to one of those places then, check the hen/rooster ratio (should be 50/50) and ask them what happens when hens no longer lay down eggs. Do let me know please.
I'm not Vegan, so I can't speak for them, but here's my understanding
if you live in an urban environment, it's basically impossible to get what you're referring to. Maybe if you were willing to have it shipped to you at great cost and not insignificant effort, but the only thing available at stores in the US is the BS marketed "free range" stuff. And even if you find a place that claims to be the real deal, how do you verify? Basically, it's easier for most people to just go Vegan then to seriously vet every source of animal products
Additionally, many vegans believe it to be a genuinely healthier diet than an omnivore diet. And please don't respond with " we evolved to be meat eaters" or something like that, because we didn't "evolve" to do practically any of the things modern life entails, including a lot of what we eat. Beyond that one BS counterargument though, I make no claims as to whether they're right. Anecdotally, my sister in law suffered from IBS her whole life until she went Vegan, when the problem went away entirely. So it certainly has benefit for some people
Finally, for a lot of vegans it's an issue of consent - some might say that you shouldn't eat those eggs in your example for the simple reason that they don't belong to you, and you can't morally take them, because theres no way to ask consent, and so you shouldn't. Again, you don't have to agree with the outlook, but that's the way several vegans have explained it to me.
If any actual vegans come along and think I'm misrepresenting something, feel free to correct it
Wanted to add a few arguments I saw about eggs, first that we selectively bred chickens to produce eggs at an extremely high rate (unsure what this does to their well-being, but apparently the laying itself is painless). Second, the chicken's eggs could be seen as the "work" they do in exchange for keeping them healthy and happy.
The eggshell requires calcium. At the rates at which modern egg laying hens ovulate, their bones become far more fragile to siphon it. That is to say that their ability to self sustain and survive for the total lifespan of a chicken is greatly reduced.
Supplements and well managed diets do help, but of the available data, it looks like 12-35% are still deficient depending on area of the world. I checked for studies in USA and Europe. And of course, once that's determined for particular chicken who end up producing thin shell eggs - they get killed.
And ultimately, they've been bred to rely on said diet and supplementing. Vegans are against breeding as it is, let alone breeding them to be dependent.
Almost all domestic animals are dependant, thats how mutualistic symbiotic partnerships work. Humans are only recently arguably capable of abandoning that dependance, none of our symbiotic partners can match that. Im really creeped out by what youre implying here, we shouldnt kill off our evolutionary partners just because we dont need them any longer.
And.... "Bred to rely on said diet" is a crazy thing to say, no? All animals rely on their diet. Some breeds of chicken have a higher calcium intake requirement, but so do some breeds of human. Not an excuse nor reason to drive either extinct.
Homie the problem with breeding them like this is selecting them to ovulate 300 times a year so we can steal their excretions.
Symbiotic relationships don't involve human breeding intervention. Least of all when it's for selecting traits that come to the animal's detriment. I'm not opposed to rescuing animals or providing accomodations for animals facing extinction so as to safetly raise young with minimimal human interaction.
You know what else isn't a partnership? Slitting their throats. Which happens to these chickens. Thats creepy. Assuming you aren't Vegan, which I don't think you identify as much, idk why you care if they go extinct - because you want to keep eating them? I just don't see good faith framing in your interpretation of what I said at all.
When they are kept happy and healthy I personally don't disagree yeah, but frankly how many of us here actually get our eggs from sources like that?
If I were ever to go Vegan, I probably wouldn't mind eating eggs laid up in environments like that, but I also don't blame vegans who'd rather just simplify things by cutting it out entirely than having to morally evaluate every egg they eat
@bitsplease@Poem_for_your_sprog Pretty much. Just also want to add that if we want to make eggs or dairy a staple of our diet (especially dairy), it requires essentially treating other living beings as factories to be abused until they die. Like, cows don't continuously produce milk all the time, right? They have to give birth and *then* they start producing milk (like literally every mammal). So if we want milk on demand, we need to keep cows continuously pregnant, clearly abuse.
They are selectively bred to overproduce eggs which shortens their lifespan significantly. Also they cannot consent to you taking their eggs away, in the same way it is wrong to steal from someone else.
People are vegetarian and vegan for a variety of reasons. There is also no reason people need to live their life confined to a label. The labels are helpful for quick understanding, such as ordering meals and discussing these topics, but people are more varried than labels.
I've been a full vegetarian for over 22 years but before that I only ate meat that I hunted or fished myself. I didn't call myself a vegetarian then, but ordered vegetarian when eating out. I probably had similar ethos to some including a dislike of the commercial meat industry, while others would still abhor that I was harvesting my own meat from the forest.
So what I would say to your question is why do you worry about attaining the label of vegan? If you or someone else is sourcing animals in a way that you feel is ethical, then simply be a conscientious consumer who orders vegan when eating out. As a bonus, you sidestep all the confusion around the label and the different reasons people have for using it.
I think there's some information you don't know about milk and eggs: milk is produced by forcing a cow to be pregnant (they call the rack they tie them to for breeding the rape rack), and then forcibly removing her calves from her and stealing her milk. It's terrible. And eggs are forced to be produced by grinding up male chicks so that females produce more. It's honestly terrible.
I get eggs from our own chickens. Six chickens and a rooster. Hatched them myself, originally had two roosters. The other rooster went to a local petting zoo which had some hens, but their rooster had died.
By the way, six chickens lay a lot of eggs, more than a family of four eats.
I'm referring more to small farm chickens or chickens that are basically pets (they still plop out tons of eggs). All of the factory farmed products are definitely terrible.
And to clarify I'm not against veganism at all, just curious where/why lines are drawn.
Just so you know, you don't need the m if you're talking about grams. The abbreviation is g, so 100g would be 100 grams. The metric prefixes can be used to scale your number, so 100g = 0.1kg = 100,000 mg.
I'm 206 pounds. Realistically I should be closer to 190. So for soybean to provide 380g of protein I'd need to eat a little more than a 1.05 kilos, 2.3 pounds of soybeans per day. That's an unrealistic number, especially after figuring in its endocrine disrupter issues and that the vast majority of soybeans on the market are grown with unsustainable herbicide practices. Plus eating the same thing every day is the fast track to being extremely unhealthy.
I'm not trying to argue one needs to eat meat but I am strongly suggesting that before you ever make a similar comment in the future you include way more than soybeans as an alternative. Lentils, peas, different types of beans, anything more than one. I'd probably not look at true nuts because those have their own issues with water usage. Peanuts are not true nuts. They offer 25.8g of protein per 100g. Comparable with beef but a 10th the water needed of almonds.
I avoid soy whenever I can because of the environmental and endocrine disrupter issues.
My comment was long enough so decided not to argue their premise on how much one needs, but just focus on the problems of eating as much soy as they said it would take using their numbers.
Irrelevant. Because I specifically said I'm not recommending meat but advised they include some alternatives other than soy. Reread what I wrote. I wasn't saying meat is the way. I was saying that soy by itself is not the way. Other vegan options exist.
Protein isn't one thing. If you just look at the amount of total protein your body will fall apart. There are 21 amino acids that get counted in the total amount of protein you see on nutritional labels. Consume all the protein you want and it won't matter if those 21 amino acids aren't accounted for. Now the body can make more than half of them but there are 9 it can't and you must eat.
Lentils are the one of the few vegan source of all 21 amino acids. A variety of beans and rice also offer a complete protein profile. Peas are decently high in protein but you will end up deficient in methionine and cysteine if you used it as your main protein source. That can be made up with quinoa and sunflower seeds. Which might sound odd but a cold quinoa, pea salad with sunflower seeds and a vinaigrette is very tasty. Quinoa is also a complete protein but trying to live off it is a thing for the wealthy. The trick is verity. I've met too many vegans living off French fries, meets the minimum for everything but leucine, and end up very unhealthy. Don't look for one or even a couple of super protein sources. Eat a variety. It's healthier and less likely to result in burnout.
@Dkarma@BonesOfTheMoon You don't need 2gm/lb of bw, though. First, it would be per lb of *lean* bw. Second, it's actually more like *1* g/lb of lean bw, or 2.2 g/kg of lean bw **as an upper max**, like if you're a super body builder. For *regular* people, something much more like 1.5 g/kg of lean bw is totally sufficient.
Oh, and I eat a ton of legumes, so I can (and *do*) easily exceed that 2.2 g/kg threshold on my workout days.
Two grams of protein per pound of bodyweight is way overkill and there is zero evidence it helps anything. Even for people doing rigorous strength training, muscle gains cap out at 0.8-1g. If you're not in the gym lifting heavy six days a week you don't need more than 0.4.
I'm not a vegan but this is a bad argument. You don't need back to get omega3s. Omnivore means you CAN eat meat, not that you NEED to eat meat. That would make you a carnivore.
Nobody cares about if you like eating those things, by the way. Not sure why you bothered to tell everyone about your food preferences with such detail except to get a rise out of Vegans, jeez. It's also pretty hilarious that you brought up your "concern" for them given the text in the screenshot lol
Grain fed cattle are fed a Cobalt mineral supplement because grains do not have significant amounts of Cobalt. Grass fed cattle,fish and other animals typically do obtain enough B12 or Cobalt from their diet to not require supplementation i.e free range/organic farms/ranches.
So basically, the fact that factory farms need to supplement their cattle with Cobalt is something vegans should be talking more about because it is arguably another example of cruelty that vegans wish to avoid participating in.
Doesn't really matter what it is. There's healthy people and unhealthy people and the dividing line isn't vegan/non-vegan. The post is about veganism being a target of "concern" by on-lookers when other diets have equally real health concerns
I feel like you didn't even read what I wrote. Humans are CAPABLE of receiving energy through meat, they do not require it. I never claimed you thought humans were carnivores. Teeth aren't what makes it possible so I'm not sure why you brought it up. If you chop up a steak really tiny and feed it to a pure herbivore, they're gonna get sick or die. So quit citing "science" when you clearly don't understand it.
I'm dismissive of your unnecessary inclusion of your personal food preferences because it's completely unnecessary to the conversation. Yet you went into vivid details about meat on a VEGAN community. If you didn't write that specifically to bother people here then it's you who needs to work on their communication skills.
Do you go to the StopDrinking community and start talking about the things you like about alcohol, too? Get off your high horse, you're not fooling anyone.
Omnivores do not NEED energy from meat. Full stop. Teeth are just an indicator, not the definer.
No dude, I'm not dismissive of your food preferences. I am a meat eater as I pointed out in my first reply and it's pretty clear I was being dismissive of you describing eating meat in detail to get a rise out of people. Now I'll be truly rude: Learn to fuckin read.
Leave the last word if it will make you feel better but this is the end of my replies
Right, you can get plenty of fats from a vegan diet if you are smart about it. The tough part seems to be getting enough healthy fats and proteins. In both keto and vegan diets you can follow the diet and absolutely destroy your body if you don't also pay attention to essential fats, vitamins, etc.
Should be noted that you can actually do keto vegetarian but boy will it be hard. The more restrictive the diet, the more you need to pay attention to in terms of your nutrition.
you can get plenty of fats from a vegan diet if you are smart about it
You don't even need to be smart about it. French fries are vegan. As are Oreos, and probably a billion other things that can get you plenty of fats without trying.
People seem to have the misconception that vegans just eat raw fruits and veggies all day (as evidenced by the fact that the "vegan option" at my work Halloween party was just a Costco fruit bowl). Most of the cooked veggies I eat are tossed in olive or avocado oil, a great source of fats.
Sure, some of the vegans I know supplement D3 and B12 because plant based foods, unless fortified, are lacking in these nutrients, but guess what, those are super easy things to pick up at the grocery store vitamin aisle - a small price to pay for all of the other benefits of going vegan.
All of that said, I've never met a vegan who had any difficulty getting enough fat in their diet.
More people should be taking care of their vitamin D levels. It's a really common deficiency.
Getting enough fat is easy, but my vegan recipes are the only ones that I intentionally add extra oil to fix the macros. It's just easier to eat a reasonable amount of fat on a vegan diet compared to a constant excess in a non vegan diet.
You shouldnt be using vitamin pills for any dietary supplement. You uptake ~10-30% if youre lucky. The pill goes right through you. It needs to be in a food item with some mass, so it stays within the digestive tract.
Eating it with food doesnt change the uptake. It doesnt magically undissolve because there is food sitting beside it.
If youre only getting 10-30% of a supplemental nutrient, youre going to still be deficient. Youre just now spending money to be deficient, when before you got to keep the money.
Many medicines have low uptake efficiency. It just means you need to take 3-10 times the dose you need. Like if your body needs 10mg, you might need to take a 30 to 100mg pill.
I think people are just addicted to meat, most people are convinced we need it in almost every meal. So they feel threatened, like threatening to take your last beer away threatened. Veganism aside, if the general population went to a much lower quantity of meat eating (like a couple times a week instead of a day) we would all be so much better off.
I stopped cooking meat at home and my consumption of it plummeted. For now, I will still eat it at restaurants or when my friends and family cook it....but I don't feel like I "need" it like I used to.
This was a big game changer for me - just learning how to cook delicious veggies/plant-based foods at home dropped my meat consumption dramatically. From there I started noticing which restaurants actually had good vegan/vegetarian options, and as my pallette shifted, so did my list of favorite restaurants.
That's how I picture it going going for me, too. Some people might say to just rip the band-aid off but I know myself too well - if I jump in fully, I'll eventually crack and feel so bad about it I'll give up the idea entirely. So I'm going slow and letting it happen naturally. I'm a few years in and I barely eat red meat but bacon and chicken are still obstacles to overcome
It is clearly possible to have healthy vegan diet, you do have to plan what you eat to have necessary nutrition. If you do not do that, then there is a rather high chance of malnutrition, especially in children. This chance is much less if you are not vegan. This is why people express concern.
Sure, but why is it socially acceptable to be "concerned" about vegans in general and not meat-eaters who eat like shit? It's fake concern 99% of the time. Just people pretending to be better than others because they don't agree with the life choices that don't affect them in any way.
The #1 reason for not going vegan isn't the health concerns, it's because you were raised eating meat and can't imagine not having it. I will fully admit that's why I haven't made the change but I'm not here spouting bullshit to vegans
Why do you say it is not socially acceptable to ask this question to meat eaters? I am on keto diet for many years and regularly receive questions about it. I would just object to the classification that “I eat like shit”, but other than that everything goes.
Nah, I don't plan shit. I just listen to my body and it tells me if I'm missing something. It's been evolving to keep me alive for billions of years, it knows what's up. I just have to know how to listen.
Your post started off weak and got weaker and weaker until you finally succumbed to your true thoughts: "eating animals feels good."
Omega 3 in bacon is virtually non-existent. It's a 1:10 ratio omega 3 to omega 6, versus 1:1 in fish. It's the ratio that matters, not the absolute amount.
"Rot" is kind of a loaded term. Our gut flora are an important part of digestion and essential to human health.
Even 100% grass fed (extremely rare) livestock products really don't have high quantities of omega 3s. Seeds are one of the best sources, and if you are concerned about ALA conversion then then algae is probably the best source, that's where the fish get it from.
Everything that's not a refined food has protein pretty much. And save a few categories like grains and fruits most have a good portion of protein relative to their macros and a good distribution of aminos. It would be difficult to not get enough protein eating WFPB, but even if you do include refined foods and more grains in your diet you likely just need to eat beans and veg to balance it out. Basically don't eat an exclusively bananas and rice diet and you'll probably be fine.
The way I see it, eating meat is an act of desperation akin to the Soviets eating human beings during the battle of Stalingrad. There used to be agricultural reasons for it but the way we practice it now is laced with corruption and suffering.
This whole meme is based on a lie; people on a keto diet get harassed all the time.
That's it. Had a buddy do it. Would order Burger, no bun. Obviously, we made a joke out of it. And that's it. Nobody cares.
Guilty conscience meat eaters use concern trolling to salvage their own self-esteem. In my experience, those expressions of worry are back handed compliments at best. They never come from people who are in better shape than I am and they don't come from people with better nutrition either.
Wow you really nailed it.
I lost 58kg and the only things I ever heard was concern trolling from my friends that resented me for doing what they could not.
Never heard word one about my body while I was unhealthy and unhappy, and the shitty remarks started as soon as the weight reduction became noticeable.
"Woah slow down, don't want you to disappear!" "You've proven your point! You can eat a donut!" "Why do you want to be miserable and only eat seeds?" "Fuck dude you're vanishing! Eat a hamburger!" "You think you're better than everyone now!" "It's actually really unhealthy to be as lean as you've become." "Don't like hanging out anymore, you make me think about every molecule I put in my damned mouth!" "You look like a skeleton now."
And so forth.
Wow those are shitty people. Good on you for losing that weight, as a hefty fellow it's fucking haaaaard work and you should be proud of the effort you put in!
Thanks for the support!
I made so many changes in my journey. I taught myself to cook and made every meal from scratch ingredients... for 6 months. I'm reminiscing now thinking about how many tortillas I've pressed, sauces I've made, things I've fermented, and hundreds of hours on the cutting board. How many times I ordered a "kid size" pizza or sundae on my "cheat" days lol
I ran (poorly), swam, rode, lifted and burned so many calories. I meditated every day and did monthly therapy to help with the mental stress of the physical and lifestyle changes. That is all time, effort, pain, money, and sacrifice.
Every day without wavering I made a hundred difficult little choices that prioritized my goals vs my desires/old patterns. Food everywhere and people genuinely insulted when I wouldn't partake with them or in their way. Watching my friends literally not enjoy their meal from their own shame, just because my serving was conspicuously smaller. Dealing with my biology compelling me to eat one way while I was consciously reprogramming myself to eat another way. Massive social pressures from all sides.
I never really even told anybody of my goals or changes. I didn't make it my personality or a thing. Never spoke of it once or advocated anything to my friends. Only spoke about being slimmer when specifically asked.
That's why it was so hurtful to undertake such tremendous responsibility for my own personal transformation, and then have people internalize it, make my journey about how them and how they feel shitty when they look at me, then make a snide or sinister comment. Only my best friend of 30 years gave me any positive feedback.
The whole thing was kind of a rough ride. Worth it in the end, but wow it was so much more than just eating less.
Thanks for listening. I really appreciate your comment a lot!
Such and interesting read and I hope you found it worth it in the end..! You've verbalised a lot of my experiences with quitting alcohol. It was the hardest thing I've done and lost a lot of 'friends' along the way. But ended up happier, healthier, and genuinely enjoying life again.
Good for you my friend! Yes it was the same thing when I quit alcohol 8 years ago! Quickly find out that people are happy for you to quit drinking until you actually do it, then it's like ... what you think you're better than me? Come on have a drink!
Wow this is the truth of the post. Not just that it ia demeaning that vegans get harassed but why it's counter to the reality of the effort being made.
Good on you, yeah you can't downplay the fortitude required to make such life altering changes. It's so easy to slip back into the status quo. That being said for anyone else reading, if you've tried, and failed, remember that you got further along than if you never tried at all. Keep at it, don't beat yourself up, you can do it!
Congrats on the weight loss.
I had to stop at 40Kg because my heart meds went out of balance... and have pretty quickly gained 12Kg since.
Ah that's interesting and something I hadn't considered. I wasn't really on any meds except Nexium at the time. Is your heart medication dose dependent on weight? I genuinely don't know anything about the conditions or treatment.
What do you credit for the 12kg regaining? Just wondering, my weight still swings about 8kg this way and that but I seem to have generally stabilized in a range.
It's somewhat interesting, because the main heart meds are metabolic blockers (ramipril and bisoprolol, respectively an angiotensin-converting enzime inhibitor, and a beta1-selective blocker that inhibits cAMP phosphorylation), so they can only block certain metabolic paths and once that's done, they can't have more effect no matter the dose (they're basically non-overdoseable).
But... at the same time, I had a diuretic added on (dapagliflozin) as part of a combined diabetes treatment, that used to work fine at the top weight, but at the bottom weight turned out to both reduce blood volume, impacting blood pressure, and lower blood sugar by too much, so that one had to go.
Reduction in stress (an extreme stress peak is what made me lose most of the weight), along with depression, and general despair due to a double back hernia that left me barely able to walk. I'm slightly better now after some physiotherapy, but still moving way less than before, so it's anyone's guess how it will go. It also made me switch to a worse diet, since I can't stay up long enough to prepare healthier stuff.
Thanks for sharing, I don't know why you are being downvoted or who is in this thread being a dick.
I'm gonna be honest, I wanted to argue against this, but I can't deny it. I'm part of a relatively overweight family (actually mostly because of immune system problems that thankfully I didn't inherit) and all I get from my parents are "You're looking skinny" or "You're worrying too much about weight" just because I want to exercise and eat well. Even then, I'm ~20lbs over weight. To be devil's advocate, I think part of it is that overweight people have struggled with problems of being too hard on themselves before, and so don't want to you fall into that, but go too far the other way. The conversation of overweight/vegans doesn't exactly overlap perfectly, but it made me think of it.
le epic funny 🤣🤣🤣
You think animals are there for a fated reason? Like all animals have a destiny? Because your comment relies on this notion.
Now apply that to something you disagree with and see how you go.
You don't need to use swear words.
Sure if you're both Stretch Armstrong lol. They're both silly appeals to extreme.
Could you find a situation where something is there to be or do something without it being decided beforehand?
The ones who felt guilty about it in this context have stopped doing it. You must have felt so smart though!
I felt guilty about it and became a vegetarian and, once I leaned about how milk and eggs lead to death and suffering, a vegan. I have been so for 10 years plus now.
Yes, but only in the same sense that woman are there for the plesure and serving of men. It's a social construction and is, as it thankfully has with the perception of woman, changing.
I don't think so. I think you'd ramble in about how unethical it is to eat a sentient beeing and how cruel this hypothetical lifeform is. Because that's how we are build. It's easiest for us to feel empathie towards our own sorry asses.
You can learn to expand your empathie tough. Start here. Watch it completely. No skipping. Then we can talk:
https://youtu.be/LQRAfJyEsko?si=MT8NgPIU0bpIpg3i
Ever heard of cannibalism?... or E. Coli, just get a bit in your blood and it will eat you in no time (aka: sepsis).
We bred them to be like that tho there were wild versions of chickens. Ever seen a wild turkey? Fuuuuck. Talk about risk if you miss that things taking an eye out. Bovines were easier prey but in the wild would have been protected by bulls, I think?
Okay, let someone murder you and eat you if they are hungry then. Plenty of people go hungry each year, why don't we eat each other? Or why won't you capture and eat my dog?
How do you know if you haven't tried?
You have to be truly deranged to compare the rights of lower lifeforms to those of humans.
This, ladies, gentlemen, and nonbinaries in finery, is what fascism looks like. "I'm biologically superior", "I can do whatever I want with lesser beings", "the whole world exists to serve me", "I can create an industrial machine of killing for my pleasure". That's called fascism. And we don't tolerate fascists.
"I dont have a conscience so I assume no one else does either."
So you don't eat medicines?
Yeah, it's called COVID-19. It wants to use your cell nuclei to grow its children from your body's energy stores, and it doesn't mind if it shuts down your respiratory system until you can't breathe. And there are a hundred deadly diseases like it.
Every time you wash your hands, blow your nose with a tissue, or cover your mouth to cough, you are showing you value life above the supposed right of predators to eat you. And that's okay. Everything has a right to live and that's okay.
Maybe it has become worse since all those vegan or vegetarian fast food options became available in stores and restaurants.
When I hear non-vegs talk about living meat-free, the conversation always revolves around these meat substitutes, how unhealthy they are.
It does not come to their mind one can prepare a meal from fresh produce. Yes of course, fast food is unhealthy. On the other hand, I like it.
Are the meat substitutes actually bad, though? Certainly can't be worse than normal fast food.
Assuming you're asking about things like impossible and beyond meat. They are generally not "healthy" but one stark difference is they don't have cholesterol.
Whether something is healthy or not is very contentious in the first place, especially with how much misinformation there is out there.
I just try to read the labels on the replacements I buy, and most of them just have many random vegetables and stuff, with a seemingly good balance in nutrients and so on. Maybe there is stuff I'm missing, but I don't see much bad that can be in there.
I think the most important thing is to just have a relatively balanced diet.
I'd say that they are as healthy as the burger king meat they are substituting. I wouldn't eat either but if you are there, picking either is equally bad so whatever.
The unhealthiest part about them is just gonna be that they're salty, fried and greasy, just like other fast food. It's just a lump of plant fibres (usually peas or wheat these days, I find) thrown in a frier.
Yeah they are better than fast food, even the fast food is healthier if you sub the meat. But that is a terrible benchmark to use.
Compare these meat substitutes to the humble bean and it's no contest.
I assure you these people are not eating healthy meals lol, it's all bad faith because the idea of them not eating meat makes them feel threatened about the size of their peepee.
Mum: Eat your vegetables
Carnists: I'm gonna pretend I didn't hear that
So you're telling us you're vegan.
Typical.
You can literally just read the comments from people who eat meat and see that they are more insufferable than vegans right here in this very thread
Scrolling down half i the comments has give me a true headache. Why do you guys feel the need to explain your consumption to vegans? Not like we have not heard your "arguments" a thousand times before.
Oh wait, you arent trying to justify your actions to us but to yourself?
I've done both vegan and keto for over a year at some point during my life and what I will say is that I naturally cover my nutrition bases through preferences and desires, while vegan though I had to hunt down (forgive the pun) b12 and complete proteins combinations a little more diligently to cover my nutrition needs.
Or put differently, I think it's easier to mess up a vegan diet than a keto one.
why are there so many triggered omnis in this thread lmao
The post is on the front page
They don't like feeling bad for the terrible things they do.
trolling vegans is one of the internet's greatest past times, please respect my culture.
Murder is so hilarious guys!
see how easy it is ^^^
Many people start with the troll. it's nothing most vegans have not dealt with a lot.
the best part is though, the troll gets exposed to the arguments for being vegan. there is probably a reason why they are so concerned with belittling and debasing.
Long story short, they often convert. Keep trolling bro.
Seriously, I'm not used to seeing this many comments with so many votes going either way. The post is so harmless.
Man the chuds in this thread really proving the OP right
A whole stick of butter? Like, unfried? Reminds me of the time we had houseguests, opened up the butter dish and found teeth marks.
No one believes it's the cat, Susan.
I went to college with a girl who would make butter popsicles - she just stuck popsicle sticks into sticks of butter and froze them, then ate them like popsicles. She didn't have any kind of special diet, she just liked butter popsicles.
She had the worst skin FWIW.
it's defensiveness. a person who eats 19 strips of bacon for every meal doesn't threaten the average omnivore. that person is arguing that they should do more of what they want to do anyway. the existence of a happy, healthy vegan, OTOH, threatens omnivores. it tells them that there is a choice other than meat, and what that does is force them to acknowledge that eating meat is a choice and that if you make that choice you're responsible for the consequences. if you live in a world where meat is necessary, let's call it the ferret diet because they're my favorite obligate carnivores, then you didn't really have a choice at all. as factory farming imposes cruelty on animals at the individual level and huge damage to the environment and climate on a collective level, the ferret diet allows you to say "🤷🤷 what are you gonna do?" veganism is an attempt to answer that question, and it's a valid one. there are plenty of people who don't eat any sort of animal product and are still happy and healthy. veganism threatens them because it makes the suffering they create a choice that they've made, rather than an inevitable consequence of being an obligate omnivore. bitching at vegans, trying to poke holes in vegan diets, all it is is an attempt to shed responsibility for your own life choices by pretending there never was a choice.
wait, I can eat bacon for every meal and that would be considered a "diet"?
Like what??? Seriously, except for B12 theres nothing a vegan diet doesnt have.
Pistachios are a full protein. Lentils Peas and Veggies make full proteins. What are you on about?
I think they mean if you were just to take your usual diet and remove certain items so as to make your diet keto friendly, you might be fine. But if you took a usual meat/dairy/egg diet and just stopped eating those fortified foods (without finding a substitution for those nutrients), you would be worse off.
Okay, i see what you mean. But i also see that that's a dumb way to think about it? Who changes their diet by just not eating certain foods anymore without incorporating something else.
Some of the most nutritionally complete foods we can eat like spinach and other such veggies are limited (though not excluded) on a keto diet, meanwhile there is no limit to how much of these you can eat as a vegan. But also food isn't just medicine or energy, it can also be poison, and other than refined junk it's going to be the animal foods that are some of the deadliest.
I'll agree with you that foods like wheat and rice are not very nutritious, but also they aren't likely to be the foods that kill you, and you can easily not eat them. Meanwhile keto is very hard to do without animal foods, for many people it's very hard to do even with animal foods. Keto doesn't just require you to exclude a list of foods like you sell it, it has very strict macro requirements which requires monitoring your intake of many of the allowed foods.
U
you managed to write a wall of text, but still use 'u' instead of 'you' 🤨
This is the only important part.
Vegan is fine if you're replacing the stuff you take out, not just skip it. It's easier now, but when vegan was just gaining traction, the alternatives weren't as plentyful as they are now.
But just make sure your diet is well balanced.
Potatoes and beans fit nearly all your basic needs. When were potatoes and beans not plentiful? The irish potato famine?
He's talking about before Sir Walter brought them back, when I were a kid we only had turnips and kale...
You have a lot of bad information about keto. It certainly doesn't make you lethargic or miserable, and definitely doesn't starve your brain. Quite the opposite... it's being used therapeutically for Parkinson's disease One of the studies referenced in that article, found here is summarized this way
Regarding energy levels most people report having much more energy, and I suspect your friends issue while in the army doing PT was related to electrolytes. People going on any kind of whole food diet, which keto tends to be, often find they get very little salt in their new diet since they're not eating processed food. People who work out or are otherwise very active often find they have to be intentional about adding salt to their diet or they will in fact find themselves tired and fatigued. Easy to remedy, and again a typical problem for anyone transitioning from a diet with lots of processed foods to one without.
There's been a lot more un-biased study of keto diets in recent years and a lot better science. It's not for everybody, but it's not intrinsically unhealthy and way better than the traditional high-carb, high-sugar, high-processed food diet.
Also, a keto diet does not specifically include or exclude red meat. That's an individuals choice, just like with virtually any other diet that includes animal protein.
This is where you lost all cred. Not before the lack of carnatine.
I'm no nutritionist, but I'm reasonably sure that any reasonable diet, whether keto or vegan can be accomplished while maintaining proper nourishment.
The thing is, most people's diet isn't even providing full nourishment. There's usually something that's missing that people are simply not aware is missing, or they're getting in such low quantities that it's unhealthy. IMO, the main problem is a lack of education on the matter. I was taught the food pyramid in grade school. It's barely relevant, and it was literally the only diet and nourishment education I recieved from my first world primary/highschool education. Unless you are going into health science or nutritionist type college credits, nobody takes the time to learn anything further about it later on. They just eat, and don't really think about it. I certainly didn't for a very long time.
Additionally, when I learned about the food pyramid, the examples didn't really make a lot of sense to me, since at the time I had barely touched any food preparation tasks, nor dealt with food that wasn't ready to eat already (usually prepared by my parents), and I had no context for what a "grain" really was, or why bread was considered a "grain" in the pyramid. I was stupid. In many ways, I still am. Yet, later in life, I don't know of anyone who is running their meal plan through a professional nutritionist before making the food. I don't know of anyone who, even if they have a meal plan, even knows a nutritionist who can consult on whether the good that they eat will provide the nutrition that they actually need.
The general population seems to put most of their trust in food makers, the corporations that make ready to eat food, to have accounted for their nutritional needs. Places like fast food restaurants, normal restaurants and those that make recipes, and most of their interest is in making food you'll enjoy, more than food that will actually provide the nutrition you need.
On top of that, even most doctors won't, by default, order tests to ensure all of your nutritional needs are met, and unless you have a symptom resulting in a significant deficiency of something, you would never know if you're behind or not getting enough of something. I can hear the comments now, "but if they're not being affected, why does it matter?" .... The thing is, they are being affected, just not significantly enough for them to be able to draw a correlation or even really complain about it.
So at the end of the day, we're probably all malnourished in some way, or at least, there's a nontrivial amount of people who are unaware that they're malnourished, which isn't being caught, and nobody has the knowledge or understanding to know it's even happening. The education on nourishment is so lackluster that is easily forgotten by most and instead we learn about factorials and trigonometry which most people never use past highschool.
I'm summary, more people than you would expect are likely unaware that they're malnourished, and the education system would rather teach you maths you'll never use than ensure you can feed yourself properly. The whole thing is fucked, and it's ironic when people lecture or question anyone about their nourishment needs, given how little any average person has been taught about proper nourishment. Everything is fucked and everybody sucks.
Meanwhile in alpha gal allergy land (allergy to mammal, the only known sugar allergy and the only known "slow onset" allergy, now the third most common food allergy in the USA thanks to Lone Star ticks and climate change), I'm happy that non-dairy cheese has come lightyears in the past decade, but wish I could easily find chicken and turkey sausage that doesn't use beef casing. Miyoko Brand cashew cheese is amazing but SO expensive.
Vegans should see alpha gal allergy folks as their allies, I think. Margaret Atwood, in her MaddAdam trilogy, imagined that alpha gal allergy was spread by ecoterrorists looking to reduce global meat consumption. While that is fiction, I sometimes think everyone should get the allergy. Basically ALL mammal consumption would cease. You'd still have sheep, alpacas, etc. for fiber production, but it would be a global food revolution unparalleled in human history, exceeding even the agricultural revolution from producing fertilizer from atmospheric nitrogen.
I have literally stopped talking to a sibling becauase they think it is funny to make jokes about my veganism, or ask if I am still vegan (for life), or if I miss the taste of meat (no, I find the smell nauseating).
It is a lack of respect for life choices, made more loathesome because my choice is made on an ethical foundation, not a whim.
Honestly, that is just one reason. They are a jerk and a bully, like everyone else who comes on here feeling the need to dismiss veganism or claim feeling attacked by it.
Just like other kinds of prejudice, these negative reactions betray a profound level of ignorance that go beyond infuriating to pitiful.
Not a vegan, but most vegans I've met seem healthy and keto is seriously bad for you, so I do not fit this meme.
nice strawman you've got there. people doing keto get harassed far more often about the bogus health implications of saturated fat. Shit I doubt the average person has ever even heard of anti-nutrients or thought twice about the nutritional value of plants beyond their prominent place in the antiquated food pyramid. but they know for a fact, duur fat=heart atak
Okay, but you do know that eating nothing but meat is bad for you? And eating buttloads of butter is not healthy? And vegetables have consistently proven health benefits?
This isn't some wild theory.
you can also do plant based keto. just pointing out op is meming on something that literally never happens.
There are insanely unhealthy versions of pretty much any diet. I know plenty of vegans who gain weight because they end up chasing the same bad eating habits in plant form. Eating excessive amounts of fruit can still qualify you as a vegan but it won't change the fact that you are on the fast track to diabetes. The dirtiest forms of dirty keto can lead to insane consumption of artificial sweetness or natural sugar substitutes which are riddled with their own health risks.
That said... Veganism and really vegetarianism to some degree is still a diet that people still seek for non-dietary motivations, and pretty much any restrictive diet is going to require a degree of finesse and knowledge to make sure that diet will be nutritionally sound. It's not out of bounds to be concerned about someone you care about in those terms.
Okay, but you do know that keto includes plenty of vegetables and is not "nothing but meat"? Spinach, broccoli, bell peppers, cucumbers, salad, asparagus, olives, eggplants, avocadoes etc
Yeah, I did keto for awhile when I was younger and definitely got harassed about it.
It was also definitely really bad for me.
I had a friend at work years back who said she was vegetarian. She was really vegan, but at the time the term wasn't as well known. She didn't do it for some moral reason, it was because she was very heavy. After a few years she had lost a couple hundred pounds, and looked so different that thry had to take a new pic for her ID badge. She was healthy, and absolutely not "malnourished".
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Please don't post images of text. Blind folks can't read it
I don't care what or how people eat. I'm a bit concerned when people want to tell me what I or anyone can eat.
Is it ok to eat people?
Sure, if everyone involved consents.
As a human, I think it is okay to eat people. Humans are currently overpopulating our planet and have completely taken over. We don't need that many humans. As a human, I may be very silly and cute, but when my species gets together to do something, we tend to make a big mess of it and just ruin everything. So we must reduce our population one way or another. Additionally, imagine how much meat one of us might have on our bones? Perhaps not as much as a cow, but when there are billions of us then that's like, billions of pounds of meat! Wow! You like meat right? I know I do. That's a lot of meat and it's just right there. I know that personally if any small dinosaurs came up to me and started chewing on my legs I'd let them do it. I don't need all my meat, you know?
Go green, eat human. Mother nature will thank you!
Sincerely,
- a human
Edit: oh no! I have made the human mistake of accidently saying I like meat on a vegan community post. This was a mistake because vegans do not like meat. I do not understand this because humans eat meat like all superior species. I do not understand why a human would want to eat only plants like human prey animals. I am a human and I like human meat, as it should be.
Edit 2: you know what, fuck this, y'all are way too dense. In what reality do people talk the way I was? Congrats, y'all ruined it.
Edit 3: since you only want very serious answers here's a serious answer: the problem with human meat has less to do with morals or ethics and more to do with health and safety. Because you are a human, eating human meat, you can contract whatever diseases the human had before death if the meat is undercooked.
Additionally, there are a lot of parasites, like the lowly tapeworm, which are """safe""" when a human consumes tainted animal meat; because the tapeworm thinks it's in a human and is content to hangout in your intestines. However, if you consume tapeworm eggs that were laid by a "human" tapeworm, the tapeworms that hatch will think they're in a pig and will have no issues burrowing through your muscles, internal organs and brain.
Another factor is that you are what you eat. There is a reason why humans typically don't eat other predators like lions or tigers, and that's because toxins like heavy metals tend to bioaccumulate in them.
Finally, most importantly, for reasons beyond my weak understanding of medical science, humans carry a high risk of prion diseases. Unlike the issues of parasites and diseases, you can not cook a human well enough to eliminate prions and still eat it. The human would be nothing more than ash because you'd have to cook the meat at thousands of degrees to destroy any potential prions the human might have been carrying. These are not something you fuck with. You cannot cure a prion disease. If you have the misfortune of eating something that has been contaminated with a prion, and one of your cells decided to do something with said prion, the only solution is to put your head between your legs and kiss your ass goodbye. You are now a dead man walking. You cannot be cured. A prion is not a virus. It is not a parasite, bacteria, or any form of fungus. It is simply a misfolded protein that your body thinks it can do something with. You will die. Your brain will look like swiss cheese. You will forget everyone you know and love, and there will be nothing you can do about it. Not only that, but again, for reasons beyond my understanding of medical science, your body will use that misfolded protein as a blueprint and will misfold other proteins to make them look like the prion. Your body will become a 3d printer for prions. Anyone who consumes your body will die.
I'm not a vegan but saying "humans eat meat like all superior species" is so weird bro like superior in what way?
Yes, yes! Humans are superior because they eat meat! Just like small dinosaurs do! But I eat more meat than they do. It is not fair. So I should share my meat with them! I do not need all of my human meat. I sit at my human computer all day, I do not need my human legs. If any small dinosaurs hid under my desk and ate my legs, I would not mind. They are hungry and need my meat, so I will let them have it.
You are arguing with someone who is roleplaying.
They are, as far as I can tell, pretending to be some small dinosaur which is in turn pretending to be a human on the internet. It is a bit character.
I think they're satirising carnists, who think that eating animals is okay because of biological supremacy but won't admit it.
humans are superior because we have tamed out environment to a degree that no other animal has been able to do. we are the top of the food chain and are in control.
I do not understand! I am not a cunt, I am a human, just like you! It is okay if you eat plants, but you won't grow big and fat if you only eat plants. More fat = more energy which means as a human, I am very tasty and filling! I respect my fellow predators and I want to ensure my meat is as tasty as I can make it. If any small dinosaurs showed up on my human doorstep and asked to come in, I would let them! They are very nice and like humans and will not hurt me, because I am a human and they like me because of that. So I am not a cunt, I am a very considerate human being who cares about their fellow species.
What is a cunt?
What's wrong with humans taking over? How is it your place to decide how many humans we need? Why must we reduce the population? Who is we? And how do humans mess things up?
Why is that concerning lmao??
"We have to find a new doctor, he started telling me that I have to start eating healthier. Very concerning and problematic behavior"
So how many supplements are you taking? 😆
As someone who regularly works with registered dietitians in clinical settings, some of which hold PhDs, please stop spreading misinformation from a place of hate and prejudice.
Sources: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27886704/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12778049/
They posted peer-reviewed papers from medical nutrition research groups, what exactly would be these researchers incentive for pushing misinformation about diets?
It's all big eggplant man
I keep trying to plant eggs and they never grow. It's a conspiracy.
Big Eggplant Man, the lesser known brother of Doctor Eggman
they posted that can indeed suck a black mans cock. but are you going to do that?
what exactly would these researchers incentive for pushing misinformation?
well....lets see, a failed degree and life choices coupled with the fact that if they don't change tact they will be as rich as a mary K agent.
No sources and racism........................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................
Post your peer reviewed contrary article about dicks so we can discuss instead
Dude, just do us all a favour and go back to twitter. You're like the drunk homeless guy at the bar that brings the mood down for everyone else. And I get that you're the kind of person that enjoys ruining things for other people, but can you just not? Just go outside or do something productive with your life instead?
Racialising penises is some fucking pathetic shit. Men who are confident in their masculinity don't need to tie it or their penis to notions of race. They love their penises (or lack thereof) no matter what their colour, because masculinity comes from within, and it is embodied by strength of independent will. Whether you abandon your own strength and rest your masculinity on the social construct of supremacy, or think that another man's race can overshadow your own independent manhood, you are pathetic, and unworthy to call yourself a man. The only identity you have succeeded in embodying is cowardice.
What too much meat does to a racist mf.
Legal bachelors is not the same as medical science you absolute dunce. So you just don't believe people can do research on medicine?
Telling people how to diet? You clearly have absolutely no idea what a registered dietitian. I'm not going to waste any more time on an obvious troll.
Can? None. ACTUALLY IRL? PLENTY
Vitamin B-12 deficiency is more prevalent in vegans.
That doesn't mean that vitamin diets always give you a deficiency. You can still get B12 as a vegan.
Never said you couldn't. It's just that a vegan diet is highly correlated with vitamin B12 deficiency.
Might aswell pop in supplements all day and call it a vegan diet if you want.
@SchizoDenji @BluesF in my mind, it's common knowledge among vegans that you should be taking a B12 supplement if you are vegan.
You can get B12 from a bunch of stuff and not have to. I've been vegan for long stretches (vegetarian most of the time) and had no issues.
You're right, it is. My wife takes B-12 supplements because she's vegan and has a deficiency.
Yeah and heart disease is more prevalent in meat eaters. So what's your point here?
Bro there are dozens of species of mammals that get large amounts of protein from sources other than meat.
Yes, but they're capable of ruminating and/or other tricks. (I think vegan and vegetarian diets are fine, just want to be accurate.)
Yeah that is true, I wish I had the stomach enzymes of a goat...
Humans are capable of eating an extremely broad variety of plants. Vegetarian diet is perfectly healthy for people. Vegan diet has only a few problems, which have already been solved. You can be vegan and live a very healthy life, but you have to supplement a few necessary nutrients. Meat has never been off the menu. It is possible to chose not to eat it, if you prefer that.
@Colorcodedresistor @wafflez What do you mean by meaningful? I almost feel like it's intentionally vague so as to be difficult to rebuke.
Do you just mean quantity or amount of protein? Or something else entirely.
It's my understanding that authorities on diet and nutrition all disagree with you. https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/eat-well/how-to-eat-a-balanced-diet/the-vegan-diet/
It's not about getting cancelled or politics, it's about living up to the ideal that humans are actually better than that, that we can feel empathy and sadness for other creatures suffering, and it's in our power to do something about it.
Potatoes.
I have never met someone on keto that has been as insufferable as a vegan.
Not all vegans are like this, but I have only seen vegans be so pompous about their diet.
Edit:
Ha, all these downvotes just prove it.
As someone who has done keto in the past and someone who has been a vegan for years I agree, at least in regards to myself. But the key difference is veganism is not a diet, what vegans eat is just a consequence of their ethics. Vegans are insufferable because animal ethics are a serious moral issue. I disagree with the pompous part though. I don't pat myself on the back for being vegan the same way I don't pat myself on the back for not committing various other moral abuses. I'm not contributing anything positive to the world by being a vegan, but I'm hopefully stepping on the rights of others less.
It's a moral problem for you. My vegan friend is vegan because she is a control freak. These are her own words.
Nah, instead they eat raw testicles in cow's milk and talk endlessly about how this was the way of people before the evils of agriculture.
You're totally wrong, I only eat cooked testicles in cow's milk. I'm not some barbarian.
When I am cutting on a LCHF diet I’ll sometimes take food with me to gathering so that I can remain focused. So, I’m not drinking, I’m staying well under 30g of sugar per day and I’m super focused on that and want to maintain a streak. Friends have become majorly hetup with me for refusing their famous carbonara or something and eating from my lunch box. Now, I understand how “weird” that is and I’ll take that but it’s not rude to decide what goes into my body. Check yourself.
Good for you, this is [email protected] so likely no one gives a fuck
Do you feel better about yourself now that you came here and said that?
I do me. You do an innocent cow's life.
I mean feed a hamster a vegan diet and see what happens if there's another hamster with the vegan one... Missing out on some critical proteins and they will gladly eat their own kin to satisfy the missing nutrients
Why do the carnists feel the need to come into a vegan community and mansplain why they murder animals in so many ways?
Just browsing 'all' I'm not coming in here to hate, in fact i do love Buddhist meals with vermicelli and cloud ear mushrooms, 髮菜, and imitation abalone (braised wheat gluten)
Good thing were not fucking hamsters then isnt it????
"yeah well one time a hamster ate another hamster. Veganism defeated!"
https://www.sciencenews.org/blog/wild-things/diet-corn-turns-wild-hamsters-cannibals
That hamster should have invested in farming technologies and processed foods so he could eat a more varied and cruelty-free diet.
Oh wait, that's humans! Humans have the ability to do those things. I get hamsters and humans confused a lot, too.
(By the way, I'm not vegan. I just see a lot of people who aren't vegan, posting in a vegan community, with bad arguments and boring takes. I cannot stand bad arguments.)
I've never understood full veganism. Is it not morally okay to consume animal products (such as milk or eggs) from actual free roaming and happy animals? And not the BS marketed "free range" products in the US.
Say I have 10 acres and keep a dozen or so chickens to roam around and eat all the ticks on my property, is it morally wrong to eat their eggs?
Society doesn’t work on edge cases. But for the sake of argument:
If that’s all the animal products you eat, these chickens are not selected through the common practice of grinding male chicks, the hens are going to die of old age, etc etc etc - for what I’m concerned you’re vegan.
Veganism is about ethics, not diet. Diet is a mere consequence. Lab grown meat is more vegan than coconut gathered by enslaved monkeys (yes it’s a thing).
So if you fine one such farm where animals are never killed or otherwise exploited then by all means, eat those eggs and call yourself a vegan. But something tells me you won’t find it.
Adding to this - I really want to emphasize how much of an edge case this is.
Around 60% of the world's population lives in urban environments, and only ~10-15% of the population works in agriculture where one might expect to encounter a scenario like this.
Living on 10 acres and raising chickens who you hug every night before bed and treat with the utmost respect is a nice ideal to strive for, but it is not achievable for most people, and there is no scenario where we maintain global meat & dairy consumption levels ethically/sustainably. Treating it as a viable solution is disingenuous because it's only a solution for a limited few.
There's a lot of those places in my area, at least for chickens. Not so much for dairy cows.
A lot of places where all chickens die of old age and males don’t get killed as chicks. Really. Go to one of those places then, check the hen/rooster ratio (should be 50/50) and ask them what happens when hens no longer lay down eggs. Do let me know please.
I'm not Vegan, so I can't speak for them, but here's my understanding
if you live in an urban environment, it's basically impossible to get what you're referring to. Maybe if you were willing to have it shipped to you at great cost and not insignificant effort, but the only thing available at stores in the US is the BS marketed "free range" stuff. And even if you find a place that claims to be the real deal, how do you verify? Basically, it's easier for most people to just go Vegan then to seriously vet every source of animal products
Additionally, many vegans believe it to be a genuinely healthier diet than an omnivore diet. And please don't respond with " we evolved to be meat eaters" or something like that, because we didn't "evolve" to do practically any of the things modern life entails, including a lot of what we eat. Beyond that one BS counterargument though, I make no claims as to whether they're right. Anecdotally, my sister in law suffered from IBS her whole life until she went Vegan, when the problem went away entirely. So it certainly has benefit for some people
Finally, for a lot of vegans it's an issue of consent - some might say that you shouldn't eat those eggs in your example for the simple reason that they don't belong to you, and you can't morally take them, because theres no way to ask consent, and so you shouldn't. Again, you don't have to agree with the outlook, but that's the way several vegans have explained it to me.
If any actual vegans come along and think I'm misrepresenting something, feel free to correct it
more or less sums it up. Source: vegan AF
Wanted to add a few arguments I saw about eggs, first that we selectively bred chickens to produce eggs at an extremely high rate (unsure what this does to their well-being, but apparently the laying itself is painless). Second, the chicken's eggs could be seen as the "work" they do in exchange for keeping them healthy and happy.
The eggshell requires calcium. At the rates at which modern egg laying hens ovulate, their bones become far more fragile to siphon it. That is to say that their ability to self sustain and survive for the total lifespan of a chicken is greatly reduced.
Thanks for the info, that makes a lot of sense.
Thats only if you arent feeding them a regular source of calcium.
Which would happen to literally any animal not properly fed.
Supplements and well managed diets do help, but of the available data, it looks like 12-35% are still deficient depending on area of the world. I checked for studies in USA and Europe. And of course, once that's determined for particular chicken who end up producing thin shell eggs - they get killed.
And ultimately, they've been bred to rely on said diet and supplementing. Vegans are against breeding as it is, let alone breeding them to be dependent.
Almost all domestic animals are dependant, thats how mutualistic symbiotic partnerships work. Humans are only recently arguably capable of abandoning that dependance, none of our symbiotic partners can match that. Im really creeped out by what youre implying here, we shouldnt kill off our evolutionary partners just because we dont need them any longer.
And.... "Bred to rely on said diet" is a crazy thing to say, no? All animals rely on their diet. Some breeds of chicken have a higher calcium intake requirement, but so do some breeds of human. Not an excuse nor reason to drive either extinct.
Homie the problem with breeding them like this is selecting them to ovulate 300 times a year so we can steal their excretions.
Symbiotic relationships don't involve human breeding intervention. Least of all when it's for selecting traits that come to the animal's detriment. I'm not opposed to rescuing animals or providing accomodations for animals facing extinction so as to safetly raise young with minimimal human interaction.
You know what else isn't a partnership? Slitting their throats. Which happens to these chickens. Thats creepy. Assuming you aren't Vegan, which I don't think you identify as much, idk why you care if they go extinct - because you want to keep eating them? I just don't see good faith framing in your interpretation of what I said at all.
When they are kept happy and healthy I personally don't disagree yeah, but frankly how many of us here actually get our eggs from sources like that?
If I were ever to go Vegan, I probably wouldn't mind eating eggs laid up in environments like that, but I also don't blame vegans who'd rather just simplify things by cutting it out entirely than having to morally evaluate every egg they eat
@bitsplease @Poem_for_your_sprog Pretty much. Just also want to add that if we want to make eggs or dairy a staple of our diet (especially dairy), it requires essentially treating other living beings as factories to be abused until they die. Like, cows don't continuously produce milk all the time, right? They have to give birth and *then* they start producing milk (like literally every mammal). So if we want milk on demand, we need to keep cows continuously pregnant, clearly abuse.
Yeah definitely impossible for a lot of people. I live somewhere that I can do this and even get eggs from those people. Mmmm tick eggs.
They are selectively bred to overproduce eggs which shortens their lifespan significantly. Also they cannot consent to you taking their eggs away, in the same way it is wrong to steal from someone else.
People are vegetarian and vegan for a variety of reasons. There is also no reason people need to live their life confined to a label. The labels are helpful for quick understanding, such as ordering meals and discussing these topics, but people are more varried than labels.
I've been a full vegetarian for over 22 years but before that I only ate meat that I hunted or fished myself. I didn't call myself a vegetarian then, but ordered vegetarian when eating out. I probably had similar ethos to some including a dislike of the commercial meat industry, while others would still abhor that I was harvesting my own meat from the forest.
So what I would say to your question is why do you worry about attaining the label of vegan? If you or someone else is sourcing animals in a way that you feel is ethical, then simply be a conscientious consumer who orders vegan when eating out. As a bonus, you sidestep all the confusion around the label and the different reasons people have for using it.
I think there's some information you don't know about milk and eggs: milk is produced by forcing a cow to be pregnant (they call the rack they tie them to for breeding the rape rack), and then forcibly removing her calves from her and stealing her milk. It's terrible. And eggs are forced to be produced by grinding up male chicks so that females produce more. It's honestly terrible.
You are intentionally ignoring what they said about hens on their own property.
How do you think the cow would get pregnant or where you'd get the eggs from?
I get eggs from our own chickens. Six chickens and a rooster. Hatched them myself, originally had two roosters. The other rooster went to a local petting zoo which had some hens, but their rooster had died.
By the way, six chickens lay a lot of eggs, more than a family of four eats.
But where did your chickens come from? They were sorted by sex and the males thrown in a grinder.
They just told you they hatched them themselves.
The chickens they hatched from did not appear out of thin air.
Do I need to promote my chicken's lineage back to before they were domesticated?
I'm referring more to small farm chickens or chickens that are basically pets (they still plop out tons of eggs). All of the factory farmed products are definitely terrible.
And to clarify I'm not against veganism at all, just curious where/why lines are drawn.
A cousin of mine literally owns chickens and won't eat their eggs. I don't get it.
What a weirdo. I know someone who's dog died at a prime age and they didn't even eat it.
Idk man eating eggs kinda weird ? You eat spider eggs?
Eating plants is kinda weird too. I mean, do you eat hard wood?
Back to 4chan with you
Don't forget to eat your beans with that meat.
Just so you know, you don't need the m if you're talking about grams. The abbreviation is g, so 100g would be 100 grams. The metric prefixes can be used to scale your number, so 100g = 0.1kg = 100,000 mg.
I know, was just humoring OP.
I'm 206 pounds. Realistically I should be closer to 190. So for soybean to provide 380g of protein I'd need to eat a little more than a 1.05 kilos, 2.3 pounds of soybeans per day. That's an unrealistic number, especially after figuring in its endocrine disrupter issues and that the vast majority of soybeans on the market are grown with unsustainable herbicide practices. Plus eating the same thing every day is the fast track to being extremely unhealthy.
I'm not trying to argue one needs to eat meat but I am strongly suggesting that before you ever make a similar comment in the future you include way more than soybeans as an alternative. Lentils, peas, different types of beans, anything more than one. I'd probably not look at true nuts because those have their own issues with water usage. Peanuts are not true nuts. They offer 25.8g of protein per 100g. Comparable with beef but a 10th the water needed of almonds.
I avoid soy whenever I can because of the environmental and endocrine disrupter issues.
Avoids soy because of the environmental and endocrine issues, but eats beef which is worse for the environment and contains actual mammalian oestrogen
We got a dumbass carnist over here
Did you see the part where I said I'm not recommending meat?
@FauxPseudo @jarfil You don't need 2g/lb of lean bw, though. The premise is *wildly* incorrect.
My comment was long enough so decided not to argue their premise on how much one needs, but just focus on the problems of eating as much soy as they said it would take using their numbers.
How much beef do you have to eat a day to hit the same goal?
Irrelevant. Because I specifically said I'm not recommending meat but advised they include some alternatives other than soy. Reread what I wrote. I wasn't saying meat is the way. I was saying that soy by itself is not the way. Other vegan options exist.
Okay, so what do you think are the best foods to eat for a normal amount of protein?
Protein isn't one thing. If you just look at the amount of total protein your body will fall apart. There are 21 amino acids that get counted in the total amount of protein you see on nutritional labels. Consume all the protein you want and it won't matter if those 21 amino acids aren't accounted for. Now the body can make more than half of them but there are 9 it can't and you must eat.
Lentils are the one of the few vegan source of all 21 amino acids. A variety of beans and rice also offer a complete protein profile. Peas are decently high in protein but you will end up deficient in methionine and cysteine if you used it as your main protein source. That can be made up with quinoa and sunflower seeds. Which might sound odd but a cold quinoa, pea salad with sunflower seeds and a vinaigrette is very tasty. Quinoa is also a complete protein but trying to live off it is a thing for the wealthy. The trick is verity. I've met too many vegans living off French fries, meets the minimum for everything but leucine, and end up very unhealthy. Don't look for one or even a couple of super protein sources. Eat a variety. It's healthier and less likely to result in burnout.
Just eat easy vegan meat replacements and you're fine. Especially eating soy is an easy way to get protein in. It's not hard anymore.
@SkyeStarfall @Dkarma It never was, especially if you don't swallow that 2g/lb bullshit.
@Dkarma @BonesOfTheMoon You don't need 2gm/lb of bw, though. First, it would be per lb of *lean* bw. Second, it's actually more like *1* g/lb of lean bw, or 2.2 g/kg of lean bw **as an upper max**, like if you're a super body builder. For *regular* people, something much more like 1.5 g/kg of lean bw is totally sufficient.
Oh, and I eat a ton of legumes, so I can (and *do*) easily exceed that 2.2 g/kg threshold on my workout days.
Two grams of protein per pound of bodyweight is way overkill and there is zero evidence it helps anything. Even for people doing rigorous strength training, muscle gains cap out at 0.8-1g. If you're not in the gym lifting heavy six days a week you don't need more than 0.4.
I'm not a vegan but this is a bad argument. You don't need back to get omega3s. Omnivore means you CAN eat meat, not that you NEED to eat meat. That would make you a carnivore.
Nobody cares about if you like eating those things, by the way. Not sure why you bothered to tell everyone about your food preferences with such detail except to get a rise out of Vegans, jeez. It's also pretty hilarious that you brought up your "concern" for them given the text in the screenshot lol
B12 would be a much better argument tbh. That said, modern vegan diets can have enough B12 if theyre fortified. IF being the key word.
they inject animals with b12 supplements. So yo may as well take the supplement yourself
Grain fed cattle are fed a Cobalt mineral supplement because grains do not have significant amounts of Cobalt. Grass fed cattle,fish and other animals typically do obtain enough B12 or Cobalt from their diet to not require supplementation i.e free range/organic farms/ranches.
So basically, the fact that factory farms need to supplement their cattle with Cobalt is something vegans should be talking more about because it is arguably another example of cruelty that vegans wish to avoid participating in.
Doesn't really matter what it is. There's healthy people and unhealthy people and the dividing line isn't vegan/non-vegan. The post is about veganism being a target of "concern" by on-lookers when other diets have equally real health concerns
I feel like you didn't even read what I wrote. Humans are CAPABLE of receiving energy through meat, they do not require it. I never claimed you thought humans were carnivores. Teeth aren't what makes it possible so I'm not sure why you brought it up. If you chop up a steak really tiny and feed it to a pure herbivore, they're gonna get sick or die. So quit citing "science" when you clearly don't understand it.
I'm dismissive of your unnecessary inclusion of your personal food preferences because it's completely unnecessary to the conversation. Yet you went into vivid details about meat on a VEGAN community. If you didn't write that specifically to bother people here then it's you who needs to work on their communication skills.
Do you go to the StopDrinking community and start talking about the things you like about alcohol, too? Get off your high horse, you're not fooling anyone.
Omnivores do not NEED energy from meat. Full stop. Teeth are just an indicator, not the definer.
No dude, I'm not dismissive of your food preferences. I am a meat eater as I pointed out in my first reply and it's pretty clear I was being dismissive of you describing eating meat in detail to get a rise out of people. Now I'll be truly rude: Learn to fuckin read.
Leave the last word if it will make you feel better but this is the end of my replies
Right, you can get plenty of fats from a vegan diet if you are smart about it. The tough part seems to be getting enough healthy fats and proteins. In both keto and vegan diets you can follow the diet and absolutely destroy your body if you don't also pay attention to essential fats, vitamins, etc.
Should be noted that you can actually do keto vegetarian but boy will it be hard. The more restrictive the diet, the more you need to pay attention to in terms of your nutrition.
You don't even need to be smart about it. French fries are vegan. As are Oreos, and probably a billion other things that can get you plenty of fats without trying.
People seem to have the misconception that vegans just eat raw fruits and veggies all day (as evidenced by the fact that the "vegan option" at my work Halloween party was just a Costco fruit bowl). Most of the cooked veggies I eat are tossed in olive or avocado oil, a great source of fats.
Sure, some of the vegans I know supplement D3 and B12 because plant based foods, unless fortified, are lacking in these nutrients, but guess what, those are super easy things to pick up at the grocery store vitamin aisle - a small price to pay for all of the other benefits of going vegan.
All of that said, I've never met a vegan who had any difficulty getting enough fat in their diet.
More people should be taking care of their vitamin D levels. It's a really common deficiency.
Getting enough fat is easy, but my vegan recipes are the only ones that I intentionally add extra oil to fix the macros. It's just easier to eat a reasonable amount of fat on a vegan diet compared to a constant excess in a non vegan diet.
You shouldnt be using vitamin pills for any dietary supplement. You uptake ~10-30% if youre lucky. The pill goes right through you. It needs to be in a food item with some mass, so it stays within the digestive tract.
..but you still get the 10-30%?
Yeah, it has worse uptake, just eat it with food.
Eating it with food doesnt change the uptake. It doesnt magically undissolve because there is food sitting beside it.
If youre only getting 10-30% of a supplemental nutrient, youre going to still be deficient. Youre just now spending money to be deficient, when before you got to keep the money.
..you do realize that if your body takes up too little, you just eat more, right?
I've taken blood tests. Nutrients in pill form work just fine.
Many medicines have low uptake efficiency. It just means you need to take 3-10 times the dose you need. Like if your body needs 10mg, you might need to take a 30 to 100mg pill.
These arent meds.
@wildginger @RvTV95XBeo Right, so you can just take it after a meal and uptake should be okay...
Not really, because the pill just dissolves and flushes out with your piss all the same.
Its not in the food. If you really are dedicated to using a pill form, you need to crush it and directly add it in with meal prep.
@wildginger Have there been actual tests on this? I'm sure there have, but I haven't looked into it too much.
Yeah but that's what the screenshot is talking about. People are so quick to express "concern" to vegans but not keto eaters
I think people are just addicted to meat, most people are convinced we need it in almost every meal. So they feel threatened, like threatening to take your last beer away threatened. Veganism aside, if the general population went to a much lower quantity of meat eating (like a couple times a week instead of a day) we would all be so much better off.
I stopped cooking meat at home and my consumption of it plummeted. For now, I will still eat it at restaurants or when my friends and family cook it....but I don't feel like I "need" it like I used to.
This was a big game changer for me - just learning how to cook delicious veggies/plant-based foods at home dropped my meat consumption dramatically. From there I started noticing which restaurants actually had good vegan/vegetarian options, and as my pallette shifted, so did my list of favorite restaurants.
That's how I picture it going going for me, too. Some people might say to just rip the band-aid off but I know myself too well - if I jump in fully, I'll eventually crack and feel so bad about it I'll give up the idea entirely. So I'm going slow and letting it happen naturally. I'm a few years in and I barely eat red meat but bacon and chicken are still obstacles to overcome
It is clearly possible to have healthy vegan diet, you do have to plan what you eat to have necessary nutrition. If you do not do that, then there is a rather high chance of malnutrition, especially in children. This chance is much less if you are not vegan. This is why people express concern.
Sure, but why is it socially acceptable to be "concerned" about vegans in general and not meat-eaters who eat like shit? It's fake concern 99% of the time. Just people pretending to be better than others because they don't agree with the life choices that don't affect them in any way.
The #1 reason for not going vegan isn't the health concerns, it's because you were raised eating meat and can't imagine not having it. I will fully admit that's why I haven't made the change but I'm not here spouting bullshit to vegans
Why do you say it is not socially acceptable to ask this question to meat eaters? I am on keto diet for many years and regularly receive questions about it. I would just object to the classification that “I eat like shit”, but other than that everything goes.
Bad phrasing, honestly. You just don't really see other diets getting "concerned citizens" chiming in every time
What world do you live in where only vegan diets are scrutinized? Because it isnt the real world.
literally this thread we're talking in wtf dude
My replies started because of a commenter "concerned" that vegans were malnourished.
Literally this thread has multiple people correcting OP for falsely stating vegans are singled out for diet based criticism wtf dude
If you think keto diets arent criticized, you arent living in the real world. This thread is a strawman.
Nah, I don't plan shit. I just listen to my body and it tells me if I'm missing something. It's been evolving to keep me alive for billions of years, it knows what's up. I just have to know how to listen.
Yeah that is strictly incorrect. Adding vegetables to your diet has been empirically proven to be good for gut health.
I'm not wasting my time reading the rest of this.
Your post started off weak and got weaker and weaker until you finally succumbed to your true thoughts: "eating animals feels good."
Omega 3 in bacon is virtually non-existent. It's a 1:10 ratio omega 3 to omega 6, versus 1:1 in fish. It's the ratio that matters, not the absolute amount.
The best source of Omega acids is plant oils such as as Olive, Rapeseed, Walnut or Linenseed oil.
nigella lawson stop pronouncing microwave wrong
stfu
"Rot" is kind of a loaded term. Our gut flora are an important part of digestion and essential to human health.
Even 100% grass fed (extremely rare) livestock products really don't have high quantities of omega 3s. Seeds are one of the best sources, and if you are concerned about ALA conversion then then algae is probably the best source, that's where the fish get it from.
Everything that's not a refined food has protein pretty much. And save a few categories like grains and fruits most have a good portion of protein relative to their macros and a good distribution of aminos. It would be difficult to not get enough protein eating WFPB, but even if you do include refined foods and more grains in your diet you likely just need to eat beans and veg to balance it out. Basically don't eat an exclusively bananas and rice diet and you'll probably be fine.
Bacon isn't very good
The way I see it, eating meat is an act of desperation akin to the Soviets eating human beings during the battle of Stalingrad. There used to be agricultural reasons for it but the way we practice it now is laced with corruption and suffering.
So you just mansplained exactly what this meme is about? Feel better about yourself?
LMAO who asked????
K