And Parler, which is just as dead as the other three.
See, that's the thing: there's a reason why all of the "free speech" (read: nazi safe space) services are either dead or dying. It's because the nazis don't actually want their own platform; instead, they specifically want to come infest everybody else's in order to spread their hate. They're less a community, and more a disease.
Man that's so true..it's like a virus, you can't put a bunch of viruses together, they won't last long. They can't exist without a host to infect with their hate.
You can't hope they stay out. Admins and moderators have to take active steps to push them out. I want to give some kudos to lemmy.world for getting out in front of this, and I want to name and shame sh.itjust.works for having a vote in their agora community almost a week ago and then proceeding to do nothing
It's why my primary instance of beehaw elected to just defederate and sort things out later instead of desperately trying to navigate a flood of scumbags. The key will be implementing better tools and getting more people on board for community curation
I received a modest amount of downvotes on the big R for saying something similar.
I also commented (well, asked a rhetorical question but definitely got answers) here a couple of days ago that places that claim to be for free thought and expression tend to be full of either harmful garbage or nonsense conspiracy theories.
All it's going to take is one instance that isn't defederated with a jailbait community or someone with a poorly trained militia planning an act of terrorism to get Lemmy or kbin painted with the "great place for pedos" or "Nazi haven" brush.
I think I saw a post about how punk bars have an absolute 0-nazi policy because there isn't a real between a bar with nazis and a nazi bar. Other people will leave, nazis will realize they're safe there.
I think the thing that makes lemmy and kbin difficult concepts for normies will also protect it from blanket association with nazis if one instance is infiltrated. Most people don't fully understand the distinction between the shared protocol and a site's domain.
People might think "lemmy is full of nazis", but it won't mean anything to them if I say i'm hanging out on midwest.social. To them it'll just sound like a regional blog website.
Thankfully we (by we I really mean the wonderful volunteers running these instances) seem to have largely dodged that bullet thus far, but we (and now I actually mean we) can't rely on luck forever.
There's a lemmy server where a lot of alt-right and more extreme views have sub-lemmys. It got defederated by Lemmy.World and others and now they're upset that most people on other servers don't get to see their hate-speech.
I know people are downvoting because we don't want to give Nazis publicity, and I agree, but honestly it is good to let people know.
On face value the name can be riot porn like and the tagline about holding elites responsible sounds great. I would have joined if not by a stroke of luck. I came here and afterward heard they were Nazis so I'm glad I missed them but not everyone is so lucky. People should know to be able to avoid Nazis.
You're right. Just call everybody the names you want regardless if they are accurate or not. If it's fashionable enough it will stick everytime, so who cares right?
Everybody in this post is calling the server nazis.
I went there and at least in the frontpage there were only edgy right wing memes and some normal posts. But no white supremacy stuff or something related to that.
So I asked if someone could show me the posts that made them call the server nazis.
And instead of a reply, I only got downvotes. Because god forbid you ask people why they consider others nazis.
I'm sorta embarrassed that it's on my instance. As you point out it's inactive. Also our community has been very much active in discussing removing them and what to do about them. We are definitely not complicit in it.
Yeah, I'm generally against quickly defederation... But there definitely nothing of value was lost.
All the random posts from that instance that somehow ended up in my "All" board were right-wing and transphobic garbage. And I mean like really low-quality "news" articles, like the shit your racist aunt shares on facebook.
Not to mention, every single user of theirs I saw comments from were just absolute jerks, not adding anything of value to discussions, and just making instances that were still federated with their nazi bar worse places to be. "But you can block them yourself" no. I don't have time to block 6,682 users. No one does. Saying the solution to dealing with poorly moderated instances is for individuals to individually block other users is the same as saying "let's respond to this rise in nazism in our forums by doing nothing at all"
Same shit as 2016, different venue. A naive implementation of free-speech values says that they should have a chance to talk, but bringing understanding to the mix reveals that they don't also value free speech, and their speech suppresses far more than it promotes.
Freedom to associate is part of freedom of expression. You are allowed to say and believe a lot of things. And everyone you try to say them to is allowed to say they would prefer you never interact with you ever again (blocking). Further, if you openly associate with people who express opinions that people find shitty, those peioke are allowed to say they don't ever want to interact with you or anyone you associate with ever again (defederation)
Yea my take on the whole paradox is that there are the people who are ignorant, naive, and just don't know what to think because they haven't been exposed to bigger ideas yet, then you have people who hate because they genuinely enjoy feeling hate.
I do not think absolurmte free speech is necessarily good. But I think we need to be mindful that some of the nazis are children in the process of becoming full on hate, and that there is a way to bring them back into the fold, but I don't know what the best way to go about it is.
For me, it's obvious when someone wants to hate for hate sake, and they should be ignored and worse. The other people I largely just pity for being caught up in the circumstance of their life.
He literally called referred to himself as Blackman in one of his responses to me. No not "black man", but "Blackman". Maybe just a typo but his responses were hilariously sad and I wish I screenshotted it.
I don't know if @[email protected] is actually black but if he is... good lord.
I've noticed this person multiple times making similar posts on various sh.itjust.works internal communities and constantly getting downvoted into oblivion. They're a disgrace.
There is! Browse by instances like lemmy.blahaj.zone/instances, beehaw.org/instances or lemmy.dbzer0.com/instances. They have the most up to date list of people-commonly-disagreed-with-by-lefties. You can start blocking right away 😊
The problem with these lists is that people sneak things on to them.
I’m an admin on (and owner of) lemmy.ninja. We have clear anti-harassment rules, up front, in bold, front page. We have zero bots (checked daily). We have users that are LGBTQIA+. I have zero tolerance for bigotry.
Yet our site is on the lists provided.
Apparently it doesn’t matter (the lists don’t work) because all of my cross posts (from my boomer shooter community) are available on beehaw.org in their gaming section.
So these lists can be used as weapons, if they work. When thy don’t work they are just an indictment without evidence.
you're wrong, the site is allowed by all the lists I mentioned.
So these lists can be used as weapons, if they work
These lists are not weapons, they are provided by the instances themselves. They are not false or artificial. They are current, and they display exactly what is real in the configuration of the servers.
The issue is if these lists end up being blindly copied based on trust, and instances that don't deserve to be banned end up being banned by dozens of instances just because they're copying lists.
Something similar happened with Twitter banlists. A lot of the accounts were trolls and fascists and whatnot, but oftentimes someone with progressive views who is just a little controversial ends up on a banlist and banned by half of Twitter because one guy decided to stick him on a widely used banlist.
While you did clarify for MrEUser. I will say that they could be weaponized if they are just taken by instances without understanding why they were blocked by the originating instance (especially if it is a larger one). It is obviously up to the instance creators to research things. So I am not saying that it is the same as Reddit outright banning links to sites.
But I think it is fair to consider that since many of the sites that are blocked are either linking possibly illegal or openly bigoted content. That plenty of others will think that all the blocked instances are doing those things. All because the more mainstream a site becomes with "normies", they just see it as black and white (like they do with lots of real world things). While the actual case is that the ones that aren't doing those things might just be blocked due to more nuanced reasons. Maybe it is simply differences in politics or maybe even just the creator trying to only federate with instances of the same language in order to make sure everyone can read the posts/comments.
That doesn't mean that instances being able to block other instances is automatically bad or anything. It is very helpful to be able to openly see which instances are and aren't allowed. Which is at least surface level transparent for users and potential users. And can be used for creators of instances that might have been blocked to reach out and work things out if it was blocked. Which is something that (to my knowledge) all the major social media sites do not offer and tend to hide. Preferring shadowbans and only openly admitting it if it is super problematic (like bigots or openly illegal stuff).
I can somehow agree with a few things you say, but overall I think the premise is wrong. The fact is not that most blocks or even half the blocks are due to having illegal or bad content. I also don't know any defederation based on language or any such matter (especially since languages seen is already solved by your profile selection of language). Most blocks are automated, especially for instances that have trouble handling bot sign-ups, or those that have moderation issues. I think that the assumptions that one can make are indeed dangerous but they're not based in reality, but in imaginary facts about what defederation means. Obviously, since we're growing very fast, I agree that newcomers and less technically minded people may believe this is the case and use blocklists to justify random assumptions. But in the end, they would be entirely wrong, and wrong assumptions can be made about practically anything, so I wouldn't put much value or thought into the possible wraponizationability of instance defederation lists.
There are 3 categories in settings on your server, as far as I know: Linked, Allowed and Blocked. I don't know the difference between Linked and Allowed, but yes, these links contain multiple lists on the same page. The format is the following: https://domain.tld/instances, you will normally find from 1 to 3 lists there, (the Linked, Allowed and Blocked lists)
Linked are servers that your server knows about (that have communicated with it)
Allowed, or the allow-list, if present means that the server can only federate with servers in the allow list. This is the most restrictive setting possible.
Block, or disallow-list, means that these servers may not federate with yours. This is where servers go generally when they are "defederated".
Thank you for the clarification. The problem I have is:
Note that dbzer0 on the federation-checker.vercel.app shows we are being blocked. fba.ryona.agency shows that too, and apparently we are edgelords,don’t moderate, and have done something wrong with free speech…
The problem with dbzer0 is the same we had talked about before (edit: I talked with someone else from lemmy.ninja about this topic, your instance was blocked before). It's old news. It's from when you had a bot problem. Ryona has a cache and doesn't clear it too often.
The problem with toot.foundation has nothing to do with that, though. I have no idea why they would block you. You can find the up to date list of blocked instances on a mastodon by going to the https://instance.tld/about. For example, for toot.foundation, which does block lemmy.ninja, here is the updated blocklist at the bottom, you have to click Moderated servers: https://toot.foundation/about
I run my own instance so that i can take a little control over the drivel that scrolls past my eyes. Far right ideologies don't deserve a platform or an audience.
Yeah, free speech simply means that you won't get arrested for being an asshole. It doesn't mean you're entitled to be bigoted on a service someone else is hosting. This could be a single person hosting a pet as a hobby, or a corporation at a large scale. It doesn't matter as long as it's a third-party that you don't own.
If people want to be jerks on purpose without others getting involved, they can find their own place to share ideas or host a service themselves. And if they don't like people challenging their ideas, they can block them too, because they have that right on their own stuff.
Some people believe that hate and discrimination is the new normal and should be condoned by everyone. If it's a religion thing, perhaps they should reconsider what aspects of "blind" is important in blind faith? Regardless, it's incredible how people find these unfounded hills to die on.
Besides, their hate is directed towards what's fashionable at the time. "Owning slaves" and "owning women" was once something people fought for. Later, when human rights started getting voted into law, their disagreement started to be expressed through bigotry.
But now that society doesn't have much room to be racist or sexist, they are migrating to other groups they don't like. Did they generally decide that they were wrong about their previously-targeted groups? And they're positive that the new groups are the right groups to hate? Or perhaps some people just have a chip on their shoulder and want to hate using whatever mental gymnastics are necessary to validate themselves?
Regardless, social media is just a way for people to talk to each other, hosted by a person or a group. In terms of what's allowed to be said, technology is irrelevant. If someone invites you to dinner for the first time, and you're blatantly racist, you'll probably get kicked out. Social media, hosted by others, presents exactly the same set of circumstances, no matter if your voice goes through a webserver and a database first or not.
Fascism isn’t an ideology that gets defeated in the marketplace of ideas. It’s core belief is enabling a small minority to violently destroy other lives. It’s not worth your consideration.
It’s the deciding which ones are worthless that gets dangerous
Not making a decision is in and of itself a decision. Saying 'Nazis deserve a voice because everyone deserves a voice' removes the voice of minorities because Nazis murder and oppress minorities. There is a decision that has to be made somewhere. Saying 'everyone deserves a voice and Nazis deserve a platform!' is limiting the voice of minorities.
Sure. In authoritarian states, it's common to outlaw "lies" about the government, where the government essentially gets to define what a lie is. The United States has its history with such laws in the Alien and Sedition Act in the late 18th century. In more modern times, you see things like Russia outlawing "lies" about the Russo-Ukraine War (including calling it a war). And by lies, I mean anything that does not match Russia's "everything is fine" narrative. There's also Poland banning discussion of Nazi collaboration by Poles in 2018.
I definitely separate that from things like deplatforming. Both people and companies should have freedom of association when it comes to political opinions. They should never be forced to support speech that they disagree with.
None of them. Lemmy instances defederating are the epitome of another freedom, freedom of association. People should be able to choose who and who not to associate with without interference from the government.
The problem is, this isn’t just a challenge to beliefs. This is the internet. The darkest most depraved shit that can exist… does. People forcing children to do things with animals… I’ll stop there…
The U.S. constitution supports free speech. Even it has limits. You can’t yell fire in a movie theater and not face the consequences of injuries your speech causes.
Idk, gonna be a very hot take, but I like my beliefs challenged and believe that everyone deserves a voice
Nazis had a voice once, and folks listened to them. And we ended up with the Holocaust.
Might be controversial but I don't believe that people who want to murder minorities deserve a voice. I feel like that's a pretty reasonable bar to set lol.
Might be controversial but I don't believe that people who want to murder minorities deserve a voice. I feel like that's a pretty reasonable bar to set lol.
It's not controversial at all. The only people making "controversy" out of it are the ones who are mad they can't spew hate
The world came together in WWII and decided that Nazis didn't deserve a place at the table. There's a difference between "let's decide whose economic policy is more useful now" and "hey I want everyone to have a nice life and these guys think a large chunk of the world doesn't deserve to live at all."
you like it when "other people should be treated as people as a bare minimum" is getting challenged? because that's the belief that your average xeno-/homo-/transphobic asshole challenges. Many beliefs I have ought to be challenged on the regular, but not THAT one
Blocking instances actually makes the lives of instance admins a lot easier. It not only reduces a whole chunk of problematic content for you to moderate, but it also encourages Nazis to go to the servers you block instead of yours. Nazis can't subscribe to the subs they want to on your server, and they get banned if they say Nazi shit, so they just leave and go to a Nazi server instead. It's like fly paper for Nazis lol.
As a Mastodon admin with a few thousand users, I rarely see Nazi content that I have to moderate. And that's because when I started I spent an enormous amount of time sifting through every server we federated with and blocking all of the Nazis and all the pedos and all the TERFs. And because I did that at the start, I only get maybe 10 reports a week, none of them are content that would traumatize me (almost always spam), and I also helped the servers that now use my list to do the same.
Blocking instances not only makes it easier for me to do my job, it encourages other admins to not tolerate these kinds of behaviors as well. Because if they don't moderate well, that attracts Nazis, and then we have to limit or ban them because we're volunteers. So everyone just ends up blocking the shittiest servers and moderates their user base well. It's a win/win for everyone.
Nazis are not entitled to access to minorities on my server. TERFs are not entitled to access to trans users on my server. Assholes are not entitled to have access to an audience on my server. There are tons of white supremacists or TERFs or other assholes hosting plenty of other servers where they can go and do that. But I don't want that on servers I host and my users don't want that on servers I host. If you truly believe free speech is such a big fucking deal, then you are welcome to leave and join one of those rotting servers as well. See how fun that is for you and how long it takes for you to come crawling back.
['Let me in' - a two panel image of a man standing outside a closed metal gate, and shaking it vigorously in the second panel. This variant has the face of a yelling Adolph Hitler placed over the usual face in the meme, and a Nazi symbol swastika is placed on the person's left arm in the first panel. The fediverse logo, a rainbow pentagram, is positioned over the gate in the first panel]
LET ME IN
LET ME INNNNNN!!!
^I'm a human volunteer transcribing posts in a format compatible with screen readers, for blind and visually impaired users!^
It's the internet, there's Nazis everywhere. I got to see how they work (on the internet) because they converted a long time acquaintance of mine. I'm going to start working on some mod tools to help shut their bullshit down once work stops being a shitnado.
Sorry to hear about your acquaintance. Fuck nazi and thank you we need people to make sure we keep them the fuck out. Fuck nazi and I believe it's only time punching someone wouldn't be considered violent since to me a nazi isn't a person our worth being considered human. But fucking monsters.
There's a difference between “I don't respect this person's humanity” based on traits they were born with versus active choices and decisions that person has made. I would define one of the core human traits as care and empathy for others, and I don't think Nazis demonstrate that trait
They don't. Neither do most CEO and all billionaires. They have no empathy and in some cases enjoy causing suffering. Especially on those they deem lesser than themselves.
To me that makes them not human. But nazis are whole other beast and I think it perfectly fine to shoot them into the sun.
Yes it's important to remember that humans are simple flawed creatures. Whether you are religious or not that should be everyone's basic understanding. And while it's important to remember that that doesn't justify the behavior. It doesn't make them any less human either.
We just need to remember the paradox of tolerance.
I'm not going to join your ride on the slippery slope of dehumanization. You need to get to grips with the reallity that your rosy fiction of what humans should be is not what humans are. Your jump to dehumanization is a perfect illustration of a not so nice human trait that enabled some of the most horrible episodes of human history. Be better than that.
Are we dicussing the same thing here? I am talking about Nazis and no one except for nazis should disagree with me on how they should be treated and dealt with. Thank you very much. I don't care if I hurt thier fucking fee fees. Fuck Nazis and only good one is a dead one. Punch a nazi in the face.
I think it's important to remember they're human because it reminds me that the problem isn't really the individual people, the problem is the material structure that created them. You can't just fix society by getting rid of the baddies, we need to tackle the systems that are turning people into Nazis.
That said? We are limited by our material conditions. I think it's better to put Nazis through deradicalization programs instead of The Alternative, but I won't idealistically insist on expensive and difficult deradicalization when they need to be stopped immediately.
I don't think Nazis demonstrate that trait
Actually they did. Calling anyone living today a Nazi is wrong to begin with. Nazi was the nickname for NSDAP members. The S there is for Sozialistisch (social) and was not just a hollow word in their name. They did alot for unemployed people and massively increased social welfare programs (though, obviously, not everyone profited from that). People seem to forget, that the Nazis were legally elected in 1933; And that was not because everyone hated Jews (many did, though). They were humans, and they were idealists. Despicible horrid ideals, but still. And they used those ideals to rationalize dehumanizing others. Your thought process, even if your ideals are opposing, is not that unsimilar to theirs.
People like to reduce their motives to racial bias, which is wrong. They incorporated race theory (originating from the USA, btw) but the antisemitism was the intensification and aggravation of a deeply rooted and centuries old Christian antisemitism and thus very much cultural and political and not based on traits people were born with.
But hey, if you think dehumanizing groups of humans is fine if it is done for the right reasons, be my guest. After all, everybody does it: Russians dehumanizing Ukranians and the other way around, back in the day the Nazis dehumanizing Jews, American farmers the black people, Turkey the Kurds, ..., and you everyone who's right of you and who you label a Nazi. What you all have in commen is, that you think you're doing it for the right reasons.
Calling anyone living today a Nazi is wrong to begin with.
I appreciate that you started off your post with the stupidest possible thing you could say so that everybody knows they don't need to waste time reading the rest.
You might want to look up the term neo-Nazi and learn why there is a distinction between it and the term Nazi. Your display of ignorance is indicative of that you really should read my "post" (it's a comment) in its entirety.
Nazis were a political movement and party in WW2 Germany. The people who hate black people and Jews these days do not align at all with that party. There's actual terms like Neonazi which is rare as well, or White Supremacist. The problem with using Nazi to define anybody currently is that in most online spaces a Nazi is not somebody who wants to exterminate the Jews and create a white world, but somebody you just disagree with and think is mean.
Oh I'm sorry, does it hurt the feelings of neonazis and white supremacists if I call them Nazis? Thank goodness someone told me. I'll be sure to keep calling them Nazis from now on
I will never tire of people who do not grasp linguistics trying to be pedantic about words.
In a living language, words mean whatever people currently use them to mean. This is how "literally" literally doesn't mean "literally" anymore. Most people use Nazi to refer to both 1930s German National Socialists and modern day white supremacists. Therefore, that's what it means. English is not a dead language like Latin, so stop trying to treat it like one with regards to this one word. It just makes you look like a Nazi.
And pro-Trump Republicans are neither of those things. There may be some white supremacists in their club but by no means is it a requirement. All I see from them is delusions and shitposting.
The entire republican party is currently lockstep saying all trans folk are trying to corrupt, if not molest, children. They're promising national legislation to oppress and punish them if they win. Before them, it was Mexicans and Muslims. They always have a group of "others" to scapegoat, and given enough time and power they always eventually act on it.
"Never again" means we're supposed to recognize and stop this behavior before it can harm anybody, not wait until it's too late as we disingenuously quibble over definitions.
Bah.. you can argue semantics all day long, I have no qualm calling these alt-right fucks nazis. Just look at the dumpsterfire that voat.co became. Nazis comes close enough to describe that.
I can tell you TheDonald didn't like it either. That's why they left. The free speech absolutist policies meant they got called out all the time and they couldn't handle it.
So when men march wearing black balaclava and waving actual nazi flags, calling themselves nazis and intimidating vulnerable minorities with violence, you don't call them Nazis? Really?
Edit: This is neither hypothetical nor a unique occurrence
More likely neo-Nazis than actual Nazis if not pure edge lords. I think the best way to refer to them is untermensch because the actual Nazis would have seen them as lesser which I find hilarious and should insult them thoroughly. They deserve mockery and derision.
They were a political party and movement in world war II Germany based upon politics and cultural norms of the United States. We got the OG Nazis. Yes they weren't named Nazis. That much like the term fascism was something coined by others. But refer to systems that were already prevalent here.
Most get fedederated. Once I got raided by Nazis on Mastodon who sent me a lot of dead threats and poorly made anti trans. I messaged my friend who manages the backend of our instance and we defederated like 20 instances that day.
If your instance defederates from another one both dont get updates of the other instance anymore which means that you cant interact with any community or user on that instance. I dont know if the content from before the defederation also gets made unavailable or if it is still up.
We're making fun of the people. They're welcome to use the fedi, and it's for everyone. But they're still dumbass Nazis lol. We defederate because we don't want to hear their same copy&paste racist talking points over and over.
Huge drama surrounding instances that have a major far-right presence and certain instances cutting connections (defederating), while others aren't (staying federated).
I like how someone put it in another thread. From the "defederaters," The argument most seen is: "if there's a nazi at the table and you say nothing, it's a table full of nazis." The most common counter-argument is "it's actually like a stadium full of people with some nazi's in the corner jerking themselves off." From the "federators," the most common argument is "defederation defeats decentralization," and the most common counter to this is simply: "fuck off nazi!"
I find the whole situation quite extraordinary to see unfold and be a part of.
Plus, I'd rather have those useless fuckers out in the open - it's easier to hit them that way. Hit them with legal charges is what I meant, of course.
What stadiums have these people been to where being a Nazi is okay? Stadium staff curate very specific atmospheres, and being a Nazi is an automatic disqualifier
Excellent example of why giant instances are bad ideas. Nazis love forcing you into a "throw the baby out with the bathwater" type choice because it means they can continue their hateful, destructive, genocidal behaviors without consequences. They're usually not stupid, they know what they're doing is wrong, they just want to keep getting away with it. So they'll go nuclear on anyone and everyone in order to maintain their comfy corner of hate.
Any moderator (or stadium owner) who doesn't give Nazis jerking off in a corner a lifetime ban is negligent, as you said.
Coming from ShitJustWorks, I never ever have seen a thread from exploding-heads. They simply do not make it into the feed. And the only reason I saw any posts from TheDonald community while it still existed was because sorting by active was broken and would randomly throw in threads with no traction whatsoever. I can get behind keeping a space hate-free. But currently, there simply is no hate being shown even on instances still federated with exploding-heads.
Stop running away from Nazi. Most of them are just trolls with a Nazi facemask to scare a reaction out of you. Don't cede power to them by acting as if their are dangerous. They are clowns, clown them.
They tried to overthrow the federal government last election and are responsible for countless hate crimes and fomenting prejudice and violence against marginalized people, including supporting new fascist laws in the past few years. They are dangerous, their ideology is dangerous, and their speech is used as a weapon to harm people. I'm not running away, I'm saying any "stadium" owner can and should be expected to ban such assholes from the premises. As the saying goes, if a bar owner lets Nazis congregate in the corner of their bar, it's a Nazi bar. "Not all Germans" physically committed a genocide, but all of them tolerated or endorsed Nazism to the point of allowing it to happen. When good people see evil rising, they get involved and disrupt it, they don't stay quiet and let it grow.
It isn't "running away", its preferring to go to bars where the bouncer will reliably throw nazis out. If these bouncers didn't toss a nazi, I'd find a bar where they would.
Main issue is that in a large enough group of people, there are bound to be a few Nazis that slip in and start causing shit.
Going nuclear (defederating) on the whole group before they are aware or can react to this revelation is completely unreasonable. Even more so when the instance owners, moderators and the community are aware and actively down-voting and removing comments and communities.
Word, I guess. I haven't thought about Facebook for about a decade or more. Glad to see they are still crashing and burning. Although...normally you'd burn up an evaporate by now. Can we get the MySpace treatment for Facebook already?
Also Allianz, Audi, BASF, Bayer, Zeiss, Siemens oh and Hugo Boss just to name a few. Were directly involved with Nazis using forced labor among other things. Oh and lets not forget Ford in the USA. Produced vehicles for the Nazis, and openly supported them. Lots of companies still around today got a lovely big kick start because of the Nazis.
They probably won’t ever stay fully out, since anyone can make an instance, just up to mods and individuals to block them and not federate with obvious natzi communities.
The instance at exploding-heads.com got defederated from by a lot of instances and among them the largest one lemmy.world
It happened due to them allowing hatespeech like "tranny faggot". Top post now is complaining about how the rest is sensitive libs and in the same breath call "Joe Biden is a pedo". They're throwing a tantrum about how they're getting cancelled because they can't smell the shit under their own shoe.
Sorry for hijacking your comment, it's the first one that popped up for me when I opened this thread.
If you're just discovering this post, trust me, it's not worth reading. The comments are 50% nazis and 50% morons. There is no discourse ahead, only name calling, denouncing, whataboutism, and some really fucked up thoughts and people. You don't need this in your day. You already know that nazis are bad, and nazis aren't the only bad people. Go to illegallysmolcats instead
Yeah extreme ideologies are bad, but instead of talking left vs right, which is pointless as you are trying to comp genocidal maniacs against eachother. They are all totalitarian evil, we put extra labels on so we can pick sides.
how about we consider why groups want control over your life. The left cares for society and group rights, the right cares for individual rights. I could argue the value of both, but we are overpopulated and the desires of the individual shouldn't be valued greater than that of a society, our environment, quality of life, right to health and security from violence and economic greed. Im not saying the left is good at what they do but at least they try to manage the mess instead of arrogantly assuming market forces, churches or the metaphysical can or will solve peoples unnecessary suffering.
Tankies aren't nearly as harmful as Nazis, they don't make communities unsafe. You can disagree with a tankie and that's the end of it. With Nazis, it's completely different.
I don't know there's lots of people in these ML Utopias that would big to differ with you on that. As someone who tends more LM myself. Marxist Leninists are a very real threat and shouldn't be simply brushed off. You're not wrong and saying that they are not the same type or intensity of threat as Nazis. But given enough control and power many of them are ready and eager to assassinate/slaughter etc those they disagree with. It's more a difference of numbers. In the United States we've been indoctrinated and miseducated about socialism for over 100 years. To where people reflexively recoil at any mention of socialists good or bad. They don't really differentiate. To them all socialists are bad. Whereas over the last 100 years Nazism was modeled over groups here in the United States. Who've been in power and existed throughout all that time. If that ratio changed we would be much more concerned about the ML.
Yes I am aware of what it stands for. That is exactly why I use the term and call it out. While I may have a good bit in common with them being socialist myself. That does not mean that I approve of authoritarianism or government suppression. Something that comes with every authoritarian ideology whether they are capitalist or socialist. I can waste my concerns and try to be respectful about it. If they decide they don't want it No they're free to block it.
Free speech is speech that is protected from government regulation or persecution. This is a private platform, and therefore Nazis and their speech can fuck right off.
So yeah, they are absolutely to spew their hateful speech without legal repercussions, but we absolutely do not have to let them do so here.
Their speech hinders the speech of others, particularly the minorities they are violent against. Therefore, allowing them to have a platform goes against free speech. Your right to swing your fist ends at my face.
What you guys over the pond really should learn sometime soon is that free speech doesn't mean that you can spew any random vile bullshit without repercussions.
In the Fediverse those repercussions are that your audience will be limited to the instance you chose, which honestly considering the content we are talking about is really mild.
Some of the stuff I've seen would definitely be illegal in Germany and Austria, and trust me, we have more experience with Nazis than we ever wanted. We have laws in place to at least try to prevent the resurgence of Nazis and this also affects servers like lemmy.world that are hosted at Hetzner in Germany I believe. Not defederating from these people could cause legal repercussions for the server owner and it's just not worth it, considering the content we are talking about.
Nazism is a process, and they're in the early stages trying to progress. How far along until I'm allowed to call them what they are?
Is calling an early-caught tumor cancer diluting the word cancer for terminal stages? Fundamentally they are the same, but one is further along in being bad.
Allowing actual Nazis to have a platform in a public space is Nazism.
You’re just salty because you don’t like when people call you out on it. Just go join their instance and be among your peers and leave everyone else alone.
They already have a platform It's called 4chan
And Voat and Gab and Truth
And Parler, which is just as dead as the other three.
See, that's the thing: there's a reason why all of the "free speech" (read: nazi safe space) services are either dead or dying. It's because the nazis don't actually want their own platform; instead, they specifically want to come infest everybody else's in order to spread their hate. They're less a community, and more a disease.
Man that's so true..it's like a virus, you can't put a bunch of viruses together, they won't last long. They can't exist without a host to infect with their hate.
Well, not Voat any more.
Didn't voat shut down?
Ahh, I wasn't aware
Fuck fascism mkay
I hope the nazis do stay out because I was really excited for voat for about a day until it became nazi town
You can't hope they stay out. Admins and moderators have to take active steps to push them out. I want to give some kudos to lemmy.world for getting out in front of this, and I want to name and shame sh.itjust.works for having a vote in their agora community almost a week ago and then proceeding to do nothing
Moderating is time consuming, tedious and done by volunteers. I'm not surprised that they get overrun after the latest influx of users.
It's why my primary instance of beehaw elected to just defederate and sort things out later instead of desperately trying to navigate a flood of scumbags. The key will be implementing better tools and getting more people on board for community curation
Which is why the very first question an instance admin or moderator needs to think about and answer for all to hear is "how will you handle Nazis?"
I received a modest amount of downvotes on the big R for saying something similar.
I also commented (well, asked a rhetorical question but definitely got answers) here a couple of days ago that places that claim to be for free thought and expression tend to be full of either harmful garbage or nonsense conspiracy theories.
All it's going to take is one instance that isn't defederated with a jailbait community or someone with a poorly trained militia planning an act of terrorism to get Lemmy or kbin painted with the "great place for pedos" or "Nazi haven" brush.
I think I saw a post about how punk bars have an absolute 0-nazi policy because there isn't a real between a bar with nazis and a nazi bar. Other people will leave, nazis will realize they're safe there.
I think the thing that makes lemmy and kbin difficult concepts for normies will also protect it from blanket association with nazis if one instance is infiltrated. Most people don't fully understand the distinction between the shared protocol and a site's domain.
People might think "lemmy is full of nazis", but it won't mean anything to them if I say i'm hanging out on midwest.social. To them it'll just sound like a regional blog website.
Thankfully we (by we I really mean the wonderful volunteers running these instances) seem to have largely dodged that bullet thus far, but we (and now I actually mean we) can't rely on luck forever.
I was looking forward to Voat but all the hateful/pedo subs migrating to it were bound to turn it into a cesspool.
Sounds a lot like Minds
How I felt about Gab until they did the same and quickly. Like the mods and administrators were nazi and racist too.
Wasn't voat created because reddit was banning hate subs?
No, it was just where the people from those subs decided to go and ruin.
Nazi leemings.... Go fuck yourself!
It was a play on "nazi punks fuck off" and "Russian Warship, Go Fuck Yourself". But have it you're way.
Just let them have their of naziverse. I don't want to see it.
I’m a bit out of loop, are there more info to share about?
There's a lemmy server where a lot of alt-right and more extreme views have sub-lemmys. It got defederated by Lemmy.World and others and now they're upset that most people on other servers don't get to see their hate-speech.
Oh I love more and more lemmy! Its just incredible they can create their own server full of stupid ideas and we stay away from that drama
W
What server?
Maybe better not say it, so we don’t give them attention
It's called exploding heads. You can find it through google, but I don't want to link to it.
This one. (Not a link to the defederated site, rather a link to one of the concern trolls whining about the defederation)
exploding-heads.com
I know people are downvoting because we don't want to give Nazis publicity, and I agree, but honestly it is good to let people know.
On face value the name can be riot porn like and the tagline about holding elites responsible sounds great. I would have joined if not by a stroke of luck. I came here and afterward heard they were Nazis so I'm glad I missed them but not everyone is so lucky. People should know to be able to avoid Nazis.
if we don't want to give Nazis publicity then people should downvote OP for making this meme
You don't just tell someone half of a story
Except that your downvotes are public and then you'll just be accused of being a Nazi.
Exploding heads
Ironic name
They’re called “communities”, not “sublemmys”. Lol.
Hey man I was barely awake.
So it was a sublemmynal mistake?
"sublemmys" is a great silly name, though
What's the URI of the defederated server? I want to know in order to stay away from it. Really.
I did a quick check of the frontpage of the server and didn't find anything that extreme. Can you show me some nazi related posts?
No. Why would I want to?
You're right. Just call everybody the names you want regardless if they are accurate or not. If it's fashionable enough it will stick everytime, so who cares right?
What are you referring to?
Everybody in this post is calling the server nazis.
I went there and at least in the frontpage there were only edgy right wing memes and some normal posts. But no white supremacy stuff or something related to that.
So I asked if someone could show me the posts that made them call the server nazis. And instead of a reply, I only got downvotes. Because god forbid you ask people why they consider others nazis.
All I've seen so far was that there was a (inactive) The_Donald community on one of the bigger instances, which sparked a bit of drama...
I'm sorta embarrassed that it's on my instance. As you point out it's inactive. Also our community has been very much active in discussing removing them and what to do about them. We are definitely not complicit in it.
and it closed down in 5 minutes
overreaction
Nah, there was another thing. Link here
Definitely a good move to defederate that cesspit
Yeah, I'm generally against quickly defederation... But there definitely nothing of value was lost.
All the random posts from that instance that somehow ended up in my "All" board were right-wing and transphobic garbage. And I mean like really low-quality "news" articles, like the shit your racist aunt shares on facebook.
Not to mention, every single user of theirs I saw comments from were just absolute jerks, not adding anything of value to discussions, and just making instances that were still federated with their nazi bar worse places to be. "But you can block them yourself" no. I don't have time to block 6,682 users. No one does. Saying the solution to dealing with poorly moderated instances is for individuals to individually block other users is the same as saying "let's respond to this rise in nazism in our forums by doing nothing at all"
I know of the other things, I just found it funny that that was the one you mentioned
If anyone is overreacting it's beehaw (change my mind)
Here's the link
Man, watching Nazis piss themselves over not getting the red carpet rolled out for them sure has been popcorn-worthy.
Lol thats perfect. Link for the uninitiated:
https://lemmy.world/post/694810
Same shit as 2016, different venue. A naive implementation of free-speech values says that they should have a chance to talk, but bringing understanding to the mix reveals that they don't also value free speech, and their speech suppresses far more than it promotes.
Freedom to associate is part of freedom of expression. You are allowed to say and believe a lot of things. And everyone you try to say them to is allowed to say they would prefer you never interact with you ever again (blocking). Further, if you openly associate with people who express opinions that people find shitty, those peioke are allowed to say they don't ever want to interact with you or anyone you associate with ever again (defederation)
Yea my take on the whole paradox is that there are the people who are ignorant, naive, and just don't know what to think because they haven't been exposed to bigger ideas yet, then you have people who hate because they genuinely enjoy feeling hate.
I do not think absolurmte free speech is necessarily good. But I think we need to be mindful that some of the nazis are children in the process of becoming full on hate, and that there is a way to bring them back into the fold, but I don't know what the best way to go about it is.
For me, it's obvious when someone wants to hate for hate sake, and they should be ignored and worse. The other people I largely just pity for being caught up in the circumstance of their life.
"blackconservative"
Does Lemmy have an "r/asablackman" sub yet? Because I'm getting that vibe.
If you're gonna make your username your political identity, I already don't want yo talk to you.
He literally called referred to himself as Blackman in one of his responses to me. No not "black man", but "Blackman". Maybe just a typo but his responses were hilariously sad and I wish I screenshotted it.
I don't know if @[email protected] is actually black but if he is... good lord.
I've noticed this person multiple times making similar posts on various sh.itjust.works internal communities and constantly getting downvoted into oblivion. They're a disgrace.
Hello!
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn
It says post not found
Is there a running list of bigot instances that I can block?
There is! Browse by instances like lemmy.blahaj.zone/instances, beehaw.org/instances or lemmy.dbzer0.com/instances. They have the most up to date list of people-commonly-disagreed-with-by-lefties. You can start blocking right away 😊
The problem with these lists is that people sneak things on to them.
I’m an admin on (and owner of) lemmy.ninja. We have clear anti-harassment rules, up front, in bold, front page. We have zero bots (checked daily). We have users that are LGBTQIA+. I have zero tolerance for bigotry.
Yet our site is on the lists provided.
Apparently it doesn’t matter (the lists don’t work) because all of my cross posts (from my boomer shooter community) are available on beehaw.org in their gaming section.
So these lists can be used as weapons, if they work. When thy don’t work they are just an indictment without evidence.
That sucks to be you. Enjoy being seen as a right-wing extremist no matter your personal or professional actions.
P.S. asking for evidence is racist and enables harassment (they genuinely believe this)
you're wrong, the site is allowed by all the lists I mentioned.
These lists are not weapons, they are provided by the instances themselves. They are not false or artificial. They are current, and they display exactly what is real in the configuration of the servers.
The issue is if these lists end up being blindly copied based on trust, and instances that don't deserve to be banned end up being banned by dozens of instances just because they're copying lists.
Something similar happened with Twitter banlists. A lot of the accounts were trolls and fascists and whatnot, but oftentimes someone with progressive views who is just a little controversial ends up on a banlist and banned by half of Twitter because one guy decided to stick him on a widely used banlist.
While you did clarify for MrEUser. I will say that they could be weaponized if they are just taken by instances without understanding why they were blocked by the originating instance (especially if it is a larger one). It is obviously up to the instance creators to research things. So I am not saying that it is the same as Reddit outright banning links to sites.
But I think it is fair to consider that since many of the sites that are blocked are either linking possibly illegal or openly bigoted content. That plenty of others will think that all the blocked instances are doing those things. All because the more mainstream a site becomes with "normies", they just see it as black and white (like they do with lots of real world things). While the actual case is that the ones that aren't doing those things might just be blocked due to more nuanced reasons. Maybe it is simply differences in politics or maybe even just the creator trying to only federate with instances of the same language in order to make sure everyone can read the posts/comments.
That doesn't mean that instances being able to block other instances is automatically bad or anything. It is very helpful to be able to openly see which instances are and aren't allowed. Which is at least surface level transparent for users and potential users. And can be used for creators of instances that might have been blocked to reach out and work things out if it was blocked. Which is something that (to my knowledge) all the major social media sites do not offer and tend to hide. Preferring shadowbans and only openly admitting it if it is super problematic (like bigots or openly illegal stuff).
I can somehow agree with a few things you say, but overall I think the premise is wrong. The fact is not that most blocks or even half the blocks are due to having illegal or bad content. I also don't know any defederation based on language or any such matter (especially since languages seen is already solved by your profile selection of language). Most blocks are automated, especially for instances that have trouble handling bot sign-ups, or those that have moderation issues. I think that the assumptions that one can make are indeed dangerous but they're not based in reality, but in imaginary facts about what defederation means. Obviously, since we're growing very fast, I agree that newcomers and less technically minded people may believe this is the case and use blocklists to justify random assumptions. But in the end, they would be entirely wrong, and wrong assumptions can be made about practically anything, so I wouldn't put much value or thought into the possible wraponizationability of instance defederation lists.
So these lists are both block AND allow lists? Or are they just allow lists?
There are 3 categories in settings on your server, as far as I know: Linked, Allowed and Blocked. I don't know the difference between Linked and Allowed, but yes, these links contain multiple lists on the same page. The format is the following: https://domain.tld/instances, you will normally find from 1 to 3 lists there, (the Linked, Allowed and Blocked lists)
Linked are servers that your server knows about (that have communicated with it)
Allowed, or the allow-list, if present means that the server can only federate with servers in the allow list. This is the most restrictive setting possible.
Block, or disallow-list, means that these servers may not federate with yours. This is where servers go generally when they are "defederated".
Damn I think beehaw is there? I think they have an allow list.
Thank you for the clarification. The problem I have is:
Note that dbzer0 on the federation-checker.vercel.app shows we are being blocked. fba.ryona.agency shows that too, and apparently we are edgelords,don’t moderate, and have done something wrong with free speech…
So something somewhere is broken…
The problem with dbzer0 is the same we had talked about before (edit: I talked with someone else from lemmy.ninja about this topic, your instance was blocked before). It's old news. It's from when you had a bot problem. Ryona has a cache and doesn't clear it too often.
The problem with toot.foundation has nothing to do with that, though. I have no idea why they would block you. You can find the up to date list of blocked instances on a mastodon by going to the https://instance.tld/about. For example, for toot.foundation, which does block lemmy.ninja, here is the updated blocklist at the bottom, you have to click Moderated servers: https://toot.foundation/about
beehaw? the instance that blocked lemmy.world
yup, they block many things, so if u wanna block many many things, why not start looking at what ppl who block many many things block?
I run my own instance so that i can take a little control over the drivel that scrolls past my eyes. Far right ideologies don't deserve a platform or an audience.
Yeah, free speech simply means that you won't get arrested for being an asshole. It doesn't mean you're entitled to be bigoted on a service someone else is hosting. This could be a single person hosting a pet as a hobby, or a corporation at a large scale. It doesn't matter as long as it's a third-party that you don't own.
If people want to be jerks on purpose without others getting involved, they can find their own place to share ideas or host a service themselves. And if they don't like people challenging their ideas, they can block them too, because they have that right on their own stuff.
Some people believe that hate and discrimination is the new normal and should be condoned by everyone. If it's a religion thing, perhaps they should reconsider what aspects of "blind" is important in blind faith? Regardless, it's incredible how people find these unfounded hills to die on.
Besides, their hate is directed towards what's fashionable at the time. "Owning slaves" and "owning women" was once something people fought for. Later, when human rights started getting voted into law, their disagreement started to be expressed through bigotry.
But now that society doesn't have much room to be racist or sexist, they are migrating to other groups they don't like. Did they generally decide that they were wrong about their previously-targeted groups? And they're positive that the new groups are the right groups to hate? Or perhaps some people just have a chip on their shoulder and want to hate using whatever mental gymnastics are necessary to validate themselves?
Regardless, social media is just a way for people to talk to each other, hosted by a person or a group. In terms of what's allowed to be said, technology is irrelevant. If someone invites you to dinner for the first time, and you're blatantly racist, you'll probably get kicked out. Social media, hosted by others, presents exactly the same set of circumstances, no matter if your voice goes through a webserver and a database first or not.
How do yoy feel about far left ideologies?
Evergreen meme:
Considering it's their own instance, it doesn't matter.
Love ‘em!
Imagine thinking far left and far right are equivalent.
Right wing extremists burn people alive, while left wing extremists burn cars.
Obviously the latter is far worse as it could be my car but I don't own any humans.
pretty based ngl
Deserving a voice is in no way the same as deserving an audience.
Fascism isn’t an ideology that gets defeated in the marketplace of ideas. It’s core belief is enabling a small minority to violently destroy other lives. It’s not worth your consideration.
I agree with this, but some beliefs are well... utterly stupid and not worth reconsidering. It's a waste of time really.
It's the deciding which ones are worthless that gets dangerous, particularly when "worthless" involves prison sentences.
Not making a decision is in and of itself a decision. Saying 'Nazis deserve a voice because everyone deserves a voice' removes the voice of minorities because Nazis murder and oppress minorities. There is a decision that has to be made somewhere. Saying 'everyone deserves a voice and Nazis deserve a platform!' is limiting the voice of minorities.
Could you clarify?
Sure. In authoritarian states, it's common to outlaw "lies" about the government, where the government essentially gets to define what a lie is. The United States has its history with such laws in the Alien and Sedition Act in the late 18th century. In more modern times, you see things like Russia outlawing "lies" about the Russo-Ukraine War (including calling it a war). And by lies, I mean anything that does not match Russia's "everything is fine" narrative. There's also Poland banning discussion of Nazi collaboration by Poles in 2018.
I definitely separate that from things like deplatforming. Both people and companies should have freedom of association when it comes to political opinions. They should never be forced to support speech that they disagree with.
Which Lemmy instance was it that suspended Habeas Corpus?
None of them. Lemmy instances defederating are the epitome of another freedom, freedom of association. People should be able to choose who and who not to associate with without interference from the government.
The problem is, this isn’t just a challenge to beliefs. This is the internet. The darkest most depraved shit that can exist… does. People forcing children to do things with animals… I’ll stop there…
The U.S. constitution supports free speech. Even it has limits. You can’t yell fire in a movie theater and not face the consequences of injuries your speech causes.
You in fact can yell fire in a theater without being arrested. It depends on the context (and weather or not there where injuries)
If the play calls for it and an actor says it. Or more simply if the theater is on fire.
With speech laws it matters more what the context is to the intended audience than what is specifically said.
Did I not mention being responsible for injuries? Your absolutely right, but you’re not correct…
Go test your theory out, I'll be waiting for a reply.
I will next time I'm in a theater that is on fire.
It's actually a limp ice cold take that's been debated to death
Nazis had a voice once, and folks listened to them. And we ended up with the Holocaust.
Might be controversial but I don't believe that people who want to murder minorities deserve a voice. I feel like that's a pretty reasonable bar to set lol.
It's not controversial at all. The only people making "controversy" out of it are the ones who are mad they can't spew hate
The world came together in WWII and decided that Nazis didn't deserve a place at the table. There's a difference between "let's decide whose economic policy is more useful now" and "hey I want everyone to have a nice life and these guys think a large chunk of the world doesn't deserve to live at all."
@kityr @borlax on the fediverse we ban the "nazis deserve a voice" types
you like it when "other people should be treated as people as a bare minimum" is getting challenged? because that's the belief that your average xeno-/homo-/transphobic asshole challenges. Many beliefs I have ought to be challenged on the regular, but not THAT one
Nazi's deserve to be named, shamed, and ignored.
Blocking instances actually makes the lives of instance admins a lot easier. It not only reduces a whole chunk of problematic content for you to moderate, but it also encourages Nazis to go to the servers you block instead of yours. Nazis can't subscribe to the subs they want to on your server, and they get banned if they say Nazi shit, so they just leave and go to a Nazi server instead. It's like fly paper for Nazis lol.
As a Mastodon admin with a few thousand users, I rarely see Nazi content that I have to moderate. And that's because when I started I spent an enormous amount of time sifting through every server we federated with and blocking all of the Nazis and all the pedos and all the TERFs. And because I did that at the start, I only get maybe 10 reports a week, none of them are content that would traumatize me (almost always spam), and I also helped the servers that now use my list to do the same.
Blocking instances not only makes it easier for me to do my job, it encourages other admins to not tolerate these kinds of behaviors as well. Because if they don't moderate well, that attracts Nazis, and then we have to limit or ban them because we're volunteers. So everyone just ends up blocking the shittiest servers and moderates their user base well. It's a win/win for everyone.
Nazis are not entitled to access to minorities on my server. TERFs are not entitled to access to trans users on my server. Assholes are not entitled to have access to an audience on my server. There are tons of white supremacists or TERFs or other assholes hosting plenty of other servers where they can go and do that. But I don't want that on servers I host and my users don't want that on servers I host. If you truly believe free speech is such a big fucking deal, then you are welcome to leave and join one of those rotting servers as well. See how fun that is for you and how long it takes for you to come crawling back.
Lemmy in!
Please Lemmy off Mr. Huffman's wild ride!...
Image Transcription: Meme
['Let me in' - a two panel image of a man standing outside a closed metal gate, and shaking it vigorously in the second panel. This variant has the face of a yelling Adolph Hitler placed over the usual face in the meme, and a Nazi symbol swastika is placed on the person's left arm in the first panel. The fediverse logo, a rainbow pentagram, is positioned over the gate in the first panel]
LET ME IN
LET ME INNNNNN!!!
^I'm a human volunteer transcribing posts in a format compatible with screen readers, for blind and visually impaired users!^
Good human
I love that this is being continued here. Where are y'all organizing?
As of right now, I'm transcribing freelance. I'm not sure if or when an organized effort will move to Lemmy.
as a jewish person.. all i have to say is what the fuc
It's the internet, there's Nazis everywhere. I got to see how they work (on the internet) because they converted a long time acquaintance of mine. I'm going to start working on some mod tools to help shut their bullshit down once work stops being a shitnado.
Sorry to hear about your acquaintance. Fuck nazi and thank you we need people to make sure we keep them the fuck out. Fuck nazi and I believe it's only time punching someone wouldn't be considered violent since to me a nazi isn't a person our worth being considered human. But fucking monsters.
Fyi: Dehumanizing humans was a core feature of the Nazi ideology.
There's a difference between “I don't respect this person's humanity” based on traits they were born with versus active choices and decisions that person has made. I would define one of the core human traits as care and empathy for others, and I don't think Nazis demonstrate that trait
They don't. Neither do most CEO and all billionaires. They have no empathy and in some cases enjoy causing suffering. Especially on those they deem lesser than themselves.
To me that makes them not human. But nazis are whole other beast and I think it perfectly fine to shoot them into the sun.
I think it's important to remember that these monsters are all too human.
It's still good to shoot them into the Sun.
Yes it's important to remember that humans are simple flawed creatures. Whether you are religious or not that should be everyone's basic understanding. And while it's important to remember that that doesn't justify the behavior. It doesn't make them any less human either.
We just need to remember the paradox of tolerance.
I'm not going to join your ride on the slippery slope of dehumanization. You need to get to grips with the reallity that your rosy fiction of what humans should be is not what humans are. Your jump to dehumanization is a perfect illustration of a not so nice human trait that enabled some of the most horrible episodes of human history. Be better than that.
Are we dicussing the same thing here? I am talking about Nazis and no one except for nazis should disagree with me on how they should be treated and dealt with. Thank you very much. I don't care if I hurt thier fucking fee fees. Fuck Nazis and only good one is a dead one. Punch a nazi in the face.
I think it's important to remember they're human because it reminds me that the problem isn't really the individual people, the problem is the material structure that created them. You can't just fix society by getting rid of the baddies, we need to tackle the systems that are turning people into Nazis.
That said? We are limited by our material conditions. I think it's better to put Nazis through deradicalization programs instead of The Alternative, but I won't idealistically insist on expensive and difficult deradicalization when they need to be stopped immediately.
Nazis believe it's okay to hurt certain people. I believe it's okay to fuck up Nazis. Thus, Nazis and I agree it's okay to hurt Nazis.
I appreciate that you started off your post with the stupidest possible thing you could say so that everybody knows they don't need to waste time reading the rest.
You might want to look up the term neo-Nazi and learn why there is a distinction between it and the term Nazi. Your display of ignorance is indicative of that you really should read my "post" (it's a comment) in its entirety.
Good job using the bullshit "Nazis are socialists" lie, that way it's easy to ignore you.
But it's ok to dehumanize someone who I disagree with. /s.
FYI: if their ideology is based on hurting people, we can punch them freely - they AGREE that violence is fine.
There's not really nazis, at least not many. People on the internet view right leaning views as literal nazis these days.
Except they are
they really are not
Agree to disagree
Nazis were a political movement and party in WW2 Germany. The people who hate black people and Jews these days do not align at all with that party. There's actual terms like Neonazi which is rare as well, or White Supremacist. The problem with using Nazi to define anybody currently is that in most online spaces a Nazi is not somebody who wants to exterminate the Jews and create a white world, but somebody you just disagree with and think is mean.
Oh I'm sorry, does it hurt the feelings of neonazis and white supremacists if I call them Nazis? Thank goodness someone told me. I'll be sure to keep calling them Nazis from now on
It hurts the power of labeling something as Nazis when it's just somebody you don't like.
I will never tire of people who do not grasp linguistics trying to be pedantic about words.
In a living language, words mean whatever people currently use them to mean. This is how "literally" literally doesn't mean "literally" anymore. Most people use Nazi to refer to both 1930s German National Socialists and modern day white supremacists. Therefore, that's what it means. English is not a dead language like Latin, so stop trying to treat it like one with regards to this one word. It just makes you look like a Nazi.
And pro-Trump Republicans are neither of those things. There may be some white supremacists in their club but by no means is it a requirement. All I see from them is delusions and shitposting.
The entire republican party is currently lockstep saying all trans folk are trying to corrupt, if not molest, children. They're promising national legislation to oppress and punish them if they win. Before them, it was Mexicans and Muslims. They always have a group of "others" to scapegoat, and given enough time and power they always eventually act on it.
"Never again" means we're supposed to recognize and stop this behavior before it can harm anybody, not wait until it's too late as we disingenuously quibble over definitions.
Bah.. you can argue semantics all day long, I have no qualm calling these alt-right fucks nazis. Just look at the dumpsterfire that voat.co became. Nazis comes close enough to describe that.
I can tell you TheDonald didn't like it either. That's why they left. The free speech absolutist policies meant they got called out all the time and they couldn't handle it.
Incorrect
So when men march wearing black balaclava and waving actual nazi flags, calling themselves nazis and intimidating vulnerable minorities with violence, you don't call them Nazis? Really?
Edit: This is neither hypothetical nor a unique occurrence
More likely neo-Nazis than actual Nazis if not pure edge lords. I think the best way to refer to them is untermensch because the actual Nazis would have seen them as lesser which I find hilarious and should insult them thoroughly. They deserve mockery and derision.
They were a political party and movement in world war II Germany based upon politics and cultural norms of the United States. We got the OG Nazis. Yes they weren't named Nazis. That much like the term fascism was something coined by others. But refer to systems that were already prevalent here.
Agree to disagree
Found the Nazi. Get the fuck out of here.
What are you, retarded?
Good
Fuck the nazis
NEIN!
Who knew distributed social media would be such a good idea
Put all the Nazis in one Instance. Then, defederate them.
Love to "defederate" Nazis
:)
But only after reporting them to the legal authorities.
Depends on the country, it's not illegal to be a Nazi in the USA or Canada for example.
But it's still a damn good indicator they're up to no good, and probably can be caught by other laws.
Provide the URL to the hate crimes division and the January 6th panel
Dinner Party!
That sounds like a good plot for this series I had an idea about two nerdy gaming professionals who try to start their own company.
Gab users be like
unfortunately there are a ton of fascists and fascist instances on fedi
Most get fedederated. Once I got raided by Nazis on Mastodon who sent me a lot of dead threats and poorly made anti trans. I messaged my friend who manages the backend of our instance and we defederated like 20 instances that day.
"fe-dead-erated"
LOL, now that's a spicy malapropism!
Is defederation the ban of a server from interacting with yours?
If your instance defederates from another one both dont get updates of the other instance anymore which means that you cant interact with any community or user on that instance. I dont know if the content from before the defederation also gets made unavailable or if it is still up.
We're making fun of the people. They're welcome to use the fedi, and it's for everyone. But they're still dumbass Nazis lol. We defederate because we don't want to hear their same copy&paste racist talking points over and over.
Can I just say, I love the immediate response by admins. I didn't even see the other posts before this one.
Huge drama surrounding instances that have a major far-right presence and certain instances cutting connections (defederating), while others aren't (staying federated).
I like how someone put it in another thread. From the "defederaters," The argument most seen is: "if there's a nazi at the table and you say nothing, it's a table full of nazis." The most common counter-argument is "it's actually like a stadium full of people with some nazi's in the corner jerking themselves off." From the "federators," the most common argument is "defederation defeats decentralization," and the most common counter to this is simply: "fuck off nazi!"
I find the whole situation quite extraordinary to see unfold and be a part of.
And the beauty of the fediverse is if you are a Nazi sympathizer, you can pick an instance that federates with assholes!
Plus, I'd rather have those useless fuckers out in the open - it's easier to hit them that way. Hit them with legal charges is what I meant, of course.
What stadiums have these people been to where being a Nazi is okay? Stadium staff curate very specific atmospheres, and being a Nazi is an automatic disqualifier
Excellent example of why giant instances are bad ideas. Nazis love forcing you into a "throw the baby out with the bathwater" type choice because it means they can continue their hateful, destructive, genocidal behaviors without consequences. They're usually not stupid, they know what they're doing is wrong, they just want to keep getting away with it. So they'll go nuclear on anyone and everyone in order to maintain their comfy corner of hate.
Any moderator (or stadium owner) who doesn't give Nazis jerking off in a corner a lifetime ban is negligent, as you said.
Yes but instead of a comfy corner of hate, it's a comfy corner without nazis
Coming from ShitJustWorks, I never ever have seen a thread from exploding-heads. They simply do not make it into the feed. And the only reason I saw any posts from TheDonald community while it still existed was because sorting by active was broken and would randomly throw in threads with no traction whatsoever. I can get behind keeping a space hate-free. But currently, there simply is no hate being shown even on instances still federated with exploding-heads.
Stop running away from Nazi. Most of them are just trolls with a Nazi facemask to scare a reaction out of you. Don't cede power to them by acting as if their are dangerous. They are clowns, clown them.
They tried to overthrow the federal government last election and are responsible for countless hate crimes and fomenting prejudice and violence against marginalized people, including supporting new fascist laws in the past few years. They are dangerous, their ideology is dangerous, and their speech is used as a weapon to harm people. I'm not running away, I'm saying any "stadium" owner can and should be expected to ban such assholes from the premises. As the saying goes, if a bar owner lets Nazis congregate in the corner of their bar, it's a Nazi bar. "Not all Germans" physically committed a genocide, but all of them tolerated or endorsed Nazism to the point of allowing it to happen. When good people see evil rising, they get involved and disrupt it, they don't stay quiet and let it grow.
I don't think they're real. Pet theory, they're actually bigtech henchmen here to fuck shit up so competitors get poisoned and die.
The answer is a more sophisticated user led moderation system that can wipe them off Lemmy like bugs on the windshield. Use wipers, not nuclear bombs.
I don't think they're real. Pet theory, they're actually bigtech henchmen here to fuck shit up so competitors get poisoned and die.
The answer is a more sophisticated user led moderation system that can wipe them off Lemmy like bugs on the windshield. Use wipers, not nuclear bombs.
It isn't "running away", its preferring to go to bars where the bouncer will reliably throw nazis out. If these bouncers didn't toss a nazi, I'd find a bar where they would.
Don't be surprised when you or one of your friend gets thrown out as well
I don't know about where you guys live, but where I am, a Nazi in a stadium would get trampled to death.
Main issue is that in a large enough group of people, there are bound to be a few Nazis that slip in and start causing shit.
Going nuclear (defederating) on the whole group before they are aware or can react to this revelation is completely unreasonable. Even more so when the instance owners, moderators and the community are aware and actively down-voting and removing comments and communities.
Ahh, the fine line between "must cut all contact with the bad people" and "oh, are we an insular cult now?"
Literally anyone who isn't a bigot/Nazi is welcome. I'm so sorry if that's an 'insular cult' to you, but to most people that's just decent company.
As the old and wise George Carlin used to say..."fuck the ducking fuckers". Use the word! It literally can be every word in a full sentence.
It's not a fine line. More like an 8-lane highway
We have both extremes actually, both ultra left and right. Both got defederated by some major instances.
Except instead of Nazis (?!?!) it's corporations.
That's frequently the same thing.
Seriously, it's ridiculous. Why is nobody holding Google accountable for the Holocaust?
More like why aren't more people holding Facebook accountable for the genocide they aided and abetted. They're murderously incompetent at best, and global enablers of fascism at worst. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2021/dec/06/rohingya-sue-facebook-myanmar-genocide-us-uk-legal-action-social-media-violence
Word, I guess. I haven't thought about Facebook for about a decade or more. Glad to see they are still crashing and burning. Although...normally you'd burn up an evaporate by now. Can we get the MySpace treatment for Facebook already?
i believe IBM actually did play a part in the holocaust. Google wasn’t around then
Also Allianz, Audi, BASF, Bayer, Zeiss, Siemens oh and Hugo Boss just to name a few. Were directly involved with Nazis using forced labor among other things. Oh and lets not forget Ford in the USA. Produced vehicles for the Nazis, and openly supported them. Lots of companies still around today got a lovely big kick start because of the Nazis.
And those same companies, plus a bunch more, are getting even more Nazi cash today attempting to reinstate fascists into power.
Appropriate nickname, I guess... whispering nonsense and trying to corrupt good people.
Did you put a lot of thought into that one?
It's both
Blending of corporate and state power is one of the 14 characteristics
Where is the state power in the fediverse?
They probably won’t ever stay fully out, since anyone can make an instance, just up to mods and individuals to block them and not federate with obvious natzi communities.
Obligatory Dead Kennedys post
Furthremore, The Muslims
Out of the loop. Can someone give me a short explanation?
The instance at exploding-heads.com got defederated from by a lot of instances and among them the largest one lemmy.world
It happened due to them allowing hatespeech like "tranny faggot". Top post now is complaining about how the rest is sensitive libs and in the same breath call "Joe Biden is a pedo". They're throwing a tantrum about how they're getting cancelled because they can't smell the shit under their own shoe.
It's not necessary to repeat the hate speech they got defederated over, you can just say "transphobic/homophobic slurs".
Sorry for hijacking your comment, it's the first one that popped up for me when I opened this thread.
If you're just discovering this post, trust me, it's not worth reading. The comments are 50% nazis and 50% morons. There is no discourse ahead, only name calling, denouncing, whataboutism, and some really fucked up thoughts and people. You don't need this in your day. You already know that nazis are bad, and nazis aren't the only bad people. Go to illegallysmolcats instead
Like always, the intolerant people expect to be tolerated, and when they aren't they bitch about free speech
I leave for like two days and shit’s going on without me
***Without me? ***
What mastodon instance do you moderate? Asking for myself as someone who isn't into Nazis and hate speech.
I like the mythic quest approach
Steiner!
Good, they can go back to WW2 GMOD RP like the rest of the edge lords
Lol
Let me innn
Nein!
tja
Nein du
Keep the Nazis out. with flames and force is necessary. Both online & in real life.
May I
activitypub is bad and dumb
Neither of those are denied by anyone here, shoo
Yeah extreme ideologies are bad, but instead of talking left vs right, which is pointless as you are trying to comp genocidal maniacs against eachother. They are all totalitarian evil, we put extra labels on so we can pick sides.
how about we consider why groups want control over your life. The left cares for society and group rights, the right cares for individual rights. I could argue the value of both, but we are overpopulated and the desires of the individual shouldn't be valued greater than that of a society, our environment, quality of life, right to health and security from violence and economic greed. Im not saying the left is good at what they do but at least they try to manage the mess instead of arrogantly assuming market forces, churches or the metaphysical can or will solve peoples unnecessary suffering.
@ekZepp Funny how clueless OP is.
@coin @ekZepp made this thing earlier today, feel like it's somewhat relevant here lol
On an unrelated note how did you get that little goofy ahh dancin guy to animate? Does lemmy support gif avatars?
The tankies have been here for a while so it's only a matter of time.
Tankies aren't nearly as harmful as Nazis, they don't make communities unsafe. You can disagree with a tankie and that's the end of it. With Nazis, it's completely different.
I don't know there's lots of people in these ML Utopias that would big to differ with you on that. As someone who tends more LM myself. Marxist Leninists are a very real threat and shouldn't be simply brushed off. You're not wrong and saying that they are not the same type or intensity of threat as Nazis. But given enough control and power many of them are ready and eager to assassinate/slaughter etc those they disagree with. It's more a difference of numbers. In the United States we've been indoctrinated and miseducated about socialism for over 100 years. To where people reflexively recoil at any mention of socialists good or bad. They don't really differentiate. To them all socialists are bad. Whereas over the last 100 years Nazism was modeled over groups here in the United States. Who've been in power and existed throughout all that time. If that ratio changed we would be much more concerned about the ML.
You know what the ML in lemmy.ml stands for right
Yes I am aware of what it stands for. That is exactly why I use the term and call it out. While I may have a good bit in common with them being socialist myself. That does not mean that I approve of authoritarianism or government suppression. Something that comes with every authoritarian ideology whether they are capitalist or socialist. I can waste my concerns and try to be respectful about it. If they decide they don't want it No they're free to block it.
it's all socialism to me
You seem to have a very small and limited world view
the world is much more simple when your head isn't filled with garbage propaganda
and how do you know what you're spouting isn't propaganda?
the comments, man. you people are a bunch of maoists
some of you need to stop calling everything you don't like a nazi
Pretty bold comment considering many of the people are actual swastika-waving Nazis. Stop defending them.
i don't think any of you have so much as peeked over there
Oh I have, actually, and I got to see endless slurs, nazi propaganda images, people calling for the death of minorities, and more. But go off
I'll defend anyone's right to free speech. Doesn't mean I agree with them.
Free speech is speech that is protected from government regulation or persecution. This is a private platform, and therefore Nazis and their speech can fuck right off.
So yeah, they are absolutely to spew their hateful speech without legal repercussions, but we absolutely do not have to let them do so here.
Preach my man
Their free speech is not being violated, just access to a captive audience.
Their speech hinders the speech of others, particularly the minorities they are violent against. Therefore, allowing them to have a platform goes against free speech. Your right to swing your fist ends at my face.
What you guys over the pond really should learn sometime soon is that free speech doesn't mean that you can spew any random vile bullshit without repercussions.
In the Fediverse those repercussions are that your audience will be limited to the instance you chose, which honestly considering the content we are talking about is really mild.
Some of the stuff I've seen would definitely be illegal in Germany and Austria, and trust me, we have more experience with Nazis than we ever wanted. We have laws in place to at least try to prevent the resurgence of Nazis and this also affects servers like lemmy.world that are hosted at Hetzner in Germany I believe. Not defederating from these people could cause legal repercussions for the server owner and it's just not worth it, considering the content we are talking about.
What if I don't like Nazis?
Some of you need to get away from the Nazis before they start burning.
oh i'm sorry... you're actually a patriot and january 6th was a peaceful protest.
Nazism is a process, and they're in the early stages trying to progress. How far along until I'm allowed to call them what they are?
Is calling an early-caught tumor cancer diluting the word cancer for terminal stages? Fundamentally they are the same, but one is further along in being bad.
It's weird that everyone is just calling everyone else Nazis nowadays, what happened to neo-nazi?
Consider this-the majority of people aren't using it incorrectly , just to describe people you like?
A lot of the ones I've seen defederrated were straight up white supremacists/anti-LGBQT/etc and deserved it.
Okay, we'll call it "woke" instead.
B-but my disagreement is big! They're clearly fascists.
What was removed by mod?
it's a picture of an anime girl with a stylized nazi armband
Glad that was removed
Yeah it either wasn't removed for me or because I'm an admin of my own instance I could still see it anyway
Left wingers and calling everyone that slightly disagrees with them "literally hitler" name a better duo.
"We want to kill minorities" is not a difference of opinion.
Allowing actual Nazis to have a platform in a public space is Nazism.
You’re just salty because you don’t like when people call you out on it. Just go join their instance and be among your peers and leave everyone else alone.
Exaclty. "If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor.” - Desmond Tutu
Right wingers/"centrists" regarding disinformation, populism, fear-mongering, and hatred as mere different opinions?