Most of us hate Microsoft, and yet many of us use VSCode
I get that it's open source provided you use codium not code but I still find that interesting
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Comments434View original on lemm.ee
I get that it's open source provided you use codium not code but I still find that interesting
Because the hate is based on their shitty OS. They did a fairly good job with VSCode. Our hate isn't blind.
VScode is the epitome of the EEE strategy. The core product is open-source, but it's filled to the brim with tracking and the official extensions have DRM. Yes, there's DRM on your python LSP.
Anyone who gives a shit should look for alternatives right away. The problem is just that there aren't any that are as easy to set up.
I think, I should switch to Codium for personal projects. Let's hope there is a binary package on Gentoo.
I mean, you probably already have electron compiled, no?
No, I don't. I saw it on Flathub; will install it from there.
Shouldn't using VSCodium solve the telemetry problem?
Aren't there FOSS linters which work for VSCodium?
And what would that DRM do?
Make sure that the addons can only be used by VScode. There's vscodium for now, but microsoft could easily shut that down.
Thank god I do not use python.
Not hate in my case, but I don't like ms and it's because of the shit they have done in 90s and 2000s. Their current support of linux is not something I trust.
@tomten @snek is linux your son or something?
My baby actually. Look, MS is a powerful company and they're making a lot of desperate strategic purchases as their main business corrodes. Their brand is more based on gaming. Their infrastructure? The cloud and github. They've got the butter and they're looking for bread to slap it across.
Yeah, I have a deep seated fear for the future of GitHub in the long run. Seems too ripe for eventual enshitification.
Well, this seems inevitable. But on the other hand, Github is really unique in the business and labor market too.
Now if you can enshittify Github in a way that doesn't fuck with how important people use it too much, it will be after changes to how the tech hiring environment works - worldwide.
Apparently in OP's case it is.
I hate Google but they gave us Go, Kubernetes. I hate Amazon but they gave us AWS. I plainly hate those companies, but adore the brilliant engineers that work there.
Yet most project uses GitHub too you know...
This one is a bigger issue. One of the projects I used to contribute to moved to Gitlab, and saw a significant decrease in organic contributors. GitHub simply has more users, better SEO, and a better ecosystem
Personally, I'd like for everything to be on Codeberg or something but I guess that's far away.
True but GitHub wasn't always Microsoft and at least in my experience moving between git providers is a pain
GitHub has been recognized as harmful to the free software community at least as early as 2015, years before the Microsoft acquisition. See RMS email on GitHub.
There is more than enough freedom in GitHub to set a license as you see fit. Stallman is being obtuse.
GitHub allows you to select any license (including a proprietary license) or no license at all. This does not mean that GitHub encourages one to select a free software license or any license at all.
In 2014, John Sullivan, then Executive Director of FSF, also asserted that GitHub's choosealicense.com was anti-copyleft.
Anti-copyleft bias noted by Stallman and Sullivan is evident from the very beginning, from the founder Tom Preston-Werner himself. In 2011, Preston-Werner wrote that one should "open source (almost) everything" under a permissive license, because the GPL is "too dogmatic," but keep "anything that represents business value" proprietary.
How is it a pain? You just change the origin on your existing project, and new projects you just use the new one to start with.
The pain is with the migration of a ci/cd template to another
You gotta change the origin on every deployment you have. Update environment vars, reconfigure tools. You have to port all your PRs over somehow. Your issues. Your documentation. All the access keys. Etc.
With Gitlab embracing activitypub, at least the issues can bei easily migrated now/soon.
Are they embracing activity pub? I read it is just one guy in the community working in it.
And the vast majority of users are on GitHub, looking for code on there. Having activity pub on other forges will not change that big time:-(
Ony saw this vid about it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v68NFdZIMKI
Yeah, github is currently the big cheese. But other forges are still out there and are being used. And since git is an open format, the infrastructure is (a bit) more resilient towards enshittyfication.
Oh, the repository are easy to move.
The bug reports, PRs, wikis, CI/CD are stuck in github though. There is a huge lock in.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://www.piped.video/watch?v=v68NFdZIMKI
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I'm open-source; check me out at GitHub.
I only use vim.
i have been trapped for 2 years now... hope seems pointlessyou get trapped in Vim because you dont know how to exit.
i get trapped because ive sunk so much time configuring
May your vimrc be passed down through the ages
Its all I'm leaving my kids
Agreed to the latter point. The only reason why I might not use vim is to copy-paste some code in and out of the file, in which case I prefer plain text editors.
With that said, I'm a purist who uses vim without any external plug-ins (other than the files I wrote myself in
ftplugin). Use vim on a remote machine whilst SSHed into it from a windows machine and wanting to copy-paste stuff in and out is a major pain which is why I downloaded Vscode in the first place. This piece of cancer is not touching my linux machine.based asl for using vim without plugins. although what is difficult about copy/pasting? i think u can get vim to use the system clipboard with a command
Indeed, however I'm using Windows as the host, whilst SSHed into my development machine.
Yes, integration with the system clipboard does make things somewhat easy. I would still use a simple GUI text editor if I was using my mouse though (like copying from a website using a mouse).
I feel like this is backwards and
netrwis The Way.I use
treeon the terminal if I want a tree view. I do all of my file management directly, it just feels more intuitive. I understand the point ofnetrwthoughVSCode is the only Electron program I know of that does not feel like using McDonald's kiosk on virtual machine over remote desktop.
Over dailup
I'm thinking of making an Android app with electron (NC I don't know Java Kotlin whatever lmao) is performance that bad?
Electron is for desktops OSes, so I think SE are talking about different things.
And it's not only about performance, even when that programs are running on best machines it still looks like alien and not fit.
At least use VSCodium which is VSCode without telemetry/tracking ...
Unfortunately it's not a drop in replacement. The biggest issue was certain extensions are not available on codium.
No remote SSH extension which I need
Maybe the one suggested in this thread might work for you?
https://github.com/VSCodium/vscodium/discussions/693
Some people just want to get their work done, instead of jumping through hoops.
If you want to support Microsoft then at least give them your personal data too. Don't tease the poor corpo :-(
My bigger problem is many swear on FLOSS, but using Apple is OK. Go to a FLOSS conference and there are Macs everywhere.
It's undeniable that Microsoft has had positive influences on the opensource world with language servers, debug adapter protocol, an inbrowser editor that is seemingly embedded in any website with a code editor, cross-platform C# (maybe that's a curse though, I dunno), linux contributions, and probably more I'm not aware of. Apple... I dunno. Vendor lock-in and more electronic trash?
VSCode isn't even that good, idk why people are obsessed with it.
For anything compiled, Jetbrains beats it 100:1, and for anything interpreted it's a couple tiers better than Kate.
Personally, I won't be losing sleep if I have to stop using VSCode.
If jetbrains is that much better really depends on the language. Also, jetbrains shit is damn expensive, so not a fair comparison.
They have free 'community editions', I haven't really found a need for a licence. I've only used IntelliJ, PyCharm, and
ReSharperthough.Edit: I meant rider but I was using a student licence for it anyway.
IntelliJ and PyCharm are the only JetBrains IDEs with community editions. If you want to use CLion for example, you'll either have to be a student or you have to pay.
or the project being opensource(it's i read right now) don't know how it work tho
Your project needs to be at least 3 months old with regular commits of code files (text files, readmes, or any other non code don't count). That's pretty much it.
I just went through the process, but since my project is only a month old, I got rejected. They told me to apply again in 2 months. My project is in Python, so I'm just using the community edition in the meantime, which is fine. I just really want the test code coverage feature of the paid version.
Is it though? Considering the amount of time you spent in it and the potential productivity increase it might give you I'd consider it very fairly priced.
Expensiveness does not have to mean it isn't priced fairly. Not everyone has the money to drop on tools like it, or is able to get their work to pay for it, even it is worth it.
For some time now I mostly write rust and I'm actually very satisfied with VS Code and rust-analyzer. I tried intelliJ-rust but didn't find it better. To be fair, I haven't tried the new jetbrains rust IDE though.
The thing is the VS code handles everything (with extensions). If I want to use pandoc, or CSV to markdown table, python linting, Go,, whatever, there's extensions that can handle all of these equally well and consistently, for example format on save.
If I want to use jetbrains then the pycharm for python, intelliJ for Java, Goland for golang... Then there's licencing depending on whether I'm using a personal licence or corporate laptop, whether I have to get a licence from my employer etc.
For me it's not so much that it's so good, but that it works with everything in a consistent and obvious way plus I can install it on any machine I might be using.
The Intellij plugin ecosystem is pretty good. Granted my day job is 80% Java/Kotlin but I also need python and ruby and go and the plug-ins have never let me down. I don’t have pycharm or Ruby Mine or Goland installed.
The license also explicitly lets you use your work license for personal stuff or your personal license for work stuff. The only difference is who pays. You also don’t need a license to use the community edition.
It’s also pretty good at CSV and markdown files. I might be biased because I spend probably 60 hours a week using Intellij but I don’t find any of your points against it to be accurate.
The freemium and constant "are you sure you dont want to pay?" from some intellij plugins is insulting enough that it's hard to believe any developer would praise it. Presumably this doesnt happen in vscode because it cant happen in vscode, not because people arent shameless enough to do it there.
There are definitely VSCode extensions which ask you to pay for them, like GitLens.
Ick. At the very least, i've seen it a LOT less in VSC. The fact that something as simple as rainbow brackets uses the freemium model in intellij sucks. I mean the fact that it's not a builtin setting is dumb too but that's beside the point
Their licensing is pretty easy to work with IMHO. You can even get it for free if you contribute to GitHub enough.
And if my work use gitlab and I don't code at weekends?
I mean if you don't contribute to any open source stuff online then you won't qualify. 😐
https://www.jetbrains.com/shop/eform/opensource
Their pricing for hobby licenses is pretty cheap, and they offer both their Python and Java IDE for free as well.
Jetbrains IDEs are not free though are they?
I also quite like the light touch feel you get from code, I can use it for any language and am not going to have to navigate through hundreds of language specific features I don't need unless I install them myself
Kate might do similar but I can't imagine the extension pool is big enough to compete and I think at that point I'd just use a commandline editor instead
Some are, the intellij java community edition is even open source. The paid ones are not too expensive, I pay around 200€ yearly for the all products pack and that's definitely worth it for a professional developer. If you are a student or open source developer, you can apply for free versions also.
I use vscode because I do a lot of embedded.
Used to be that you had to jump through some hoops to make it work - make your own makefiles and stuff. Now, all the major vendors of MCUs are starting to develop vscode plugins as their "IDE" instead of those horrible ultramodified eclipse installs.
VSCode is a modern emacs. Similar concept, a single editor to do everything via extensions. That's the selling point. "young people" never had the chance to work with a similar concept, this is why they found it so revolutionary (despite being a concept from the 70s).
I use it because I am forced to use a windows laptop at work, and emacs on windows is a painful experience
How dare you! Emacs is modern emacs!
Ahahah, emacs is immortal
Young people don't want to spend precious time learning lisp just to configure their editor. I don't blame them.
Me neither, tbf. Although for vscode they use typescript and json. It is not so different, just more modern
The plugins are also more modern/user friendly and integrate better out of the box.
All these things make a difference.
Absolutely. It is a modern emacs. Emacs is from the 70s, vscode is 4 years old maybe.
VSCode integrates easily all new web technologies, although emacs still remains cleaner in some areas. For instance everything is a buffer completely customizable, while in vscode terminals, debuggers, left panels are "something else". In emacs everything is easily navigable in a coherent way with only keyboard. Vscode is not there yet. And creating plugins in lisp is surprisingly powerful.
The big advantage of vscode is chromium that is well integrated with all operating systems, and nowadays it is very easy to find people who know typescript (while almost impossible to find someone who knows lisp).
At the end, vscode is the successor of emacs, as any successor it tries to replicate the best features adding new and more modern
Exactly. Jetbrains stuff is great.
With one notble exception: Android Studio, but it only sucks only because of the way Android is. And there is no alternative anyway...
Right tool for the right job. Like I use VSCode for PowerShell on AWS Windows boxes over SSH, works great. But for Python or Terraform, JetBrains Suite is just better in everyway.
Your daily reminder that VSCode is shit not because of telemetry (take your time foil hat off for one second and hear me out and I say that jokingly with love) but because the extension marketplace is not allowed to be accessed by third party tools (INCLUDING CODIUM) and even then many of the extensions are proprietary, closed source. You're not even allowed to distribute compiled VSIX files. It's disgusting. Reading about the troubles gitpod faced that led to the (now) Eclipse Marketplace (idk the name, but it's for VS Code plugins, don't be tricked, it's just owned by Eclipse foundation) is disheartening.
Those that truly dislike MS and telemetry won't.
If I'm using non-free it is Jet Brains.
I tend to use Kate, KDevelop.
MS still slurping code into Copilot from Github and telemetry in VSCode.
Would you happen to have a source for that? At a cursory glance, it looks like VSCode only does that if you're using Copilot, but if you don't have the extension installed they aren't.
VScode is proprietary and is a black box. The scary think for me is that you don't know what the program is doing
Time to run VSCodium
Unless Quake was made with Copilot, that seems very unlikely:
https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/oc9qj1/copilot_regurgitating_quake_code_including_sweary/
Could you get Kate to work with LSP for say svelte or vuejs ?
Kate has native LSP support, which by default uses "typescript-language-server" for JavaScript. As I don't really do much JavaScript stuff I can't say how well it works, or if it works with those particular frameworks.
https://docs.kde.org/stable5/en/kate/kate/kate-application-plugin-lspclient.html
Its not only Microsoft crap, its also an Electron app!
Neovim user here. Granted it takes some time to setup properly but it’s really fast with navigating through files, lsp functions and doing a search in thousands of files.
I found vscode too slow and bloated for my taste.
Having come from full fat visual studio and using fairly fast machines VS code is a breeze to use.
Though I can't imagine it can compare to commandline stuff in that regard obviously
Is there much reason to learn vim nowadays? I was under the impression it's mostly around for people who got used to it back in the day
Knowing vim is pretty essential for working on servers. My usual setup is ssh + tmux + vim. I suppose you could substitute nano for vim if it's installed.
I know I couldn't.
I've not run into a server without nano installed yet and it's perfectly serviceable if all I need is to edit one value in a config file
I have the exact same setup.
Do you use
tmuxon your main computer, especially if you're using a WM? I can't imagine the need fortmuxwith tiling window managers if you have workspaces and can partition windows how you like.Not the GP but I also use tmux (or screen in a pinch) for almost any SSH session, if only as insurance against dropped connections. I occasionally use it for local terminals if there is a chance I might want a command to outlive the current graphical session or migrate to SSH later.
Occasionally it's nice to be able to control the session from the command line, e.g. splitting a window from a script. I've also noticed that wrapping a program in tmux can avoid slowdowns when a command generates a lot of output, depending on the terminal emulator. Some emulators will try to render every update even if it means blocking the output from the program for the GUI to catch up, rather than just updating the state of the terminal in memory and rendering the latest version.
I would definitely use
tmuxon my servers, but I'm wondering about why I'd use it for the desktop. Your use-case of needing commands/output beyond the need of a graphical interface is interesting (would like to know a couple of examples), I should probably consider that.I can do the splitting with a window manager though, wouldn't need
tmuxfor that. I agree with the program GUI part.Examples of local commands I might run in
tmuxcould include anything long-running which is started from the command line. A virtual machine (qemu), perhaps, or a video encode (ffmpeg). Then if I need to log out or restart my GUI session for any reason—or something goes wrong with the session manager—it won't take the long-running process with it. While the same could be done withnohuporsystemd-run, usingtmuxallows me to interact with the process after it's started.I also have systems which are accessed both locally and remotely, so sometimes (not often) I'll start a program on a local terminal through
tmuxso I can later interact with it through SSH without resorting tox11vnc.Thanks for the comment. Long-running commands make a lot of sense.
Do you happen to run your GUI session inside of a
tmuxsession? If you log in and out, wouldn't thetmuxsession inside of the user-session terminate?If you have to ask, maybe not. But if you're mostly "keyboard driven", code and edit files a lot, it's (vim or neovim) very much worth trying out.
It’s great if you get used to it and put in the time to set it the way you want it. I find IDE’s very bloated.
For me personally I am most productive in Neovim. But if you can’t be arsed to fiddle around with config files to get things set up it’s probably not worth the effort.
Use what works best for you.
I think I'll probably end up doing it regardless because I have a weird urge to make everything as difficult and custom as possible
Got used to gnome, finally got it just how I liked it then threw it out for hyprland
I'm in my 6th semester and use neovim so no it's not mostly around for people who got used to it back in the day. A lot of my fellow students use it as well. It's the only editor I use because you can use it to edit a single file as well as a whole project and everything is always how I want it to be. Also once you get used to it I guarantee you, you will wonder how people navigate code only using mouse and the arrow keys. It is just a beauty to quickly copy a code block or change a word with 3 keystrokes.
I've been using VIM for 7 years or so, at this point. I've configured it the way I like.
The point of using it is that there is simply no other text editor which lets you edit text in such a manner. Granted, the keyword shortcuts can seem strange and obtuse in the beginning, but get used to it and you wouldn't want to use anything else anymore. I'm using the VIM extension in VSCode right now and dearly miss my
.vimrcwhich I configured so carefully on my Linux machine.As noted by others, if you do work on remote hosts, it's priceless. That's how I got used to it and I now find VSCode slow and unintuitive.
Vscode can actually run over ssh but you need to install the Vscode server which is not ideal for some
Just the matter of taste. For some users who want to get to code quickly, they use VSCode without the hassle. For some power users who want to have extreme extensibility, they use Emacs/Vim.
"Most of us hate microsoft" is honestly a pretty bold claim. They're just a company that makes software. The vast majority of the world's Linux users--which is to say, professionals who build or manage software that runs in Linux--don't care about them one way or another.
This sub might have an ideological skew, but you still don't know what people in here think about Microsoft.
You csn hate a company and like a product. They aren't mutually exclusive.
VSCode is an open source IDE. Its biggest rival is the JetBrains suite. When the alternatives are proprietary, VSCode is a win.
VScode isn't foss. It just contains some open source code.
Remote SSH is the one that I need.
Aren't those features just telemtry and the plugin store (for which there is an open source replacement btw)
Most of Jetbrain's tools have community editions as well.
The community editions are still proprietary, and they put the most useful tools behind the paywall.
VScode is proprietary as well.
Let me google that for you, Jetbrains provides a convenient list: https://www.jetbrains.com/products/compare/?product=pycharm&product=pycharm-ce
From the link you shared:
PyCharm community is amazing.
Have you tried any of the JetBrains products, they are great.
This reminds me of when my dad holds an ideological belief about something based on politicians he doesn't like who support it.
"Climate change isn't real because Al Gore..."
"Supply Side Jesus isn't valid because Al Franken..."
"Affirmative Action is racist because Al Sharpton..."
Actually now that I think about it, maybe he just doesn't like people named Al...🤔
But anyway, if it's open source, and the source is sufficiently audited by third parties, and I'm able to compile and run it myself, and running it doesn't have undesired behavior (telemetry etc) then I don't care who wrote it, because it does exactly what I need it to.
Don't use vscode, use vsCodium, all the goodness of vscpde with none of the sleezy ms tracking
Choosing not to use good software from the same company just because another software they offer is subpar would be an unreasonable decision.
Kind of the conclusion I'd come to.
Would you use excel if it were on Linux? It's one of the other few Microsoft products I think is actually pretty good.
Obviously not foss but still
Microsoft Office suite is obviously superior to its concurrents. If it were available on linux I'd use it, despite being about FOSS ideology. Sometimes, non-FOSS can be better alternatives. However, OnlyOffice is still neat and gets the job done.
It's a battle they are going to lose in the long run. When you write closed sourge code, you make a bet that you're better than all available FOSS developers in the field.
Didn't Excel make a big fuss about python integration when Libreoofice has had that for years?
Ohh can you do Exel-Style arithmetics in Word tables? You can in LibreOffice. Maybe it's just so widely used no one really knows other Office programs are basically on par with MS Office or even better.
LibreOffice UI is really... well... old. UX is really bad : it's on par with GIMP's ideology of "make it as hard as possible to get things done"
I disagree. I actually like the LibreOffice, non-tabbed, UI. It's a UI/UX that I'm used to from Office 2003 and honestly prefer. The 2007+ ribbon interface makes things harder for me to find.
Like I'm used to GIMP and can't do shit in photoshop. That doesn't mean the UX is good though, just that you got used to it and are not willing to change.
You know there are like 7 different layouts built in and you can create custom ones. You can even make it look like world if you like.
No, and it never was. There are/were always equal alternatives. It has always been their marketing power that made them (seemingly) win.
Whoops
Excel is def the mkt leader for a reason
I loathe Ms Access but have to admit there is no peer that even comes close.
Vs code is relatively reliable, cross platform and gets the job done. When there are a lot of people “one way that works for all” is a quality as well.
That said, I wish open offices were better. Even Apple numbers isn’t a realistic excel alt yet (though it is super decent). And I agree there are plenty of editors that work in many situations.
I would use Markdown editors for literally all office tasks if I could.
Ok but most people only use very basic features of Excel and would be fine with a version from the early 2000's. The spreadsheet market has caught up and they'd be fine with basically any product at this point. The only thing propping up Microsoft Office is the subtle incompatibilities they've slipped into their file formats, that people don't want to deal with. That and the fact most people get to use their Office free one way or another, and "it's what I'm used to".
I don't think I've touched actual desktop Office in more than a decade now. Even in a corporate environment it's mostly their online version that gets used 90% of time by 90% of people.
Everybody needs just a small subset of that excel does, but everybody needs a different subset.
If you do not have all the features, most of your users will be missing something that is critical to their use case.
That may be but it doesn't mean those subsets put together amount to more than just basic functionality.
What basic functionality does Excel have that can't you can't find in other spreadsheet products?
I prefer google docs because it’s accessible through a browser wherever I want.
You can use cryptdrive, it's on par with google docs spreadsheet.
Is it better than google docs spreadsheet?
Try it, it is free. It is the online implementation of OnlyOffice
It's a tool. You use the best tool available. Getting your day job done is your bottom line, you can't afford to be any less productive. If you're a foss coder doing it on your own time, go crazy. Using the most efficient tool isn't the same thing as supporting a company's bad practices, the real world isn't black and white.
I don't use VSCode for the exact reason. I used VSCodium but switched to Neovim. I see this problem more with GitHub (also owned by Microsoft). I was not able to get off GitHub yet, but I'm planning to switch to Codeberg probably. I heard that GitLab is also closed source?
My hate for Microsoft is based on the Embrace-Extend-Extinguish business tactics they use since the 80's instead of competing on product quality.
Take a look at the recent computing history and you'll find plenty of examples of great software killed by MS shitty alternatives that were the default because of the stranglehold on the OS market.
Not even sure it's EEE, they just clone and provide the clone of a good product for free and/or as part of windows.
Their products are usually only second best, but kill the market leader anyway.
Which goes to show that we don't blindly hate Microsoft, and that it's not that we refuse to use Windows because it's made by them, but because it's shit.
Well it's really noob friendly. The introductory courses in programming all tell you to use it and it takes some time and experience to find alternative editors that 1. you like better, and 2. won't confuse you more than the course itself does.
I used to use VSCodium and the Vim extension. Then I downloaded Neovim and started configuring it, but I was never really satisfied with the config. Then I found Doom Emacs. It was pretty much the thing I tried turning Neovim into.
But I wouldn't recommend Doom Emacs to a first-year student that is still learning the fundamentals.
Edit: typos
ITT people having their minds blown by the fact the creator and the creation are two different things.
I don't
If you like vscode you can always use vscodium
It’s hard to separate yourself from it when the company you work for uses it heavily and leans on some of the extensions for things like containers.
I used to be a hardcore Sublime Text user until it started formatting all of my code like garbage. I had plugins conflicting with each other and couldn’t find alternatives that did what I needed without clashes happening. Plus, barely anything is alive over on the Sublime side.
It’s hard to say no to an editor with that big of a community. You can find 100 plugins for your one need, vs 2 on the Sublime side (and you end up finding that those 2 plugins haven’t been updated in years).
You can always fallback to VSCodium.
The ability to open gigabytes of log files though, vscode will kill your machine while sublime text can do it without sweating. Also, vscode sometimes used a lot of memory after running for a while, compared to sublime text's minimal memory usage. Still, the killer feature of vscode is the remote development IMO, super useful when using a laptop and working outside. Microsoft seems to refuse opensourcing that part so can't use it on vscodium.
If Windows was open source it wouldn’t be as bad
I just want Atom back, or anything that works like it. I want a text editor with a folder tree browser. Syntax highlighting is nice. And decent full project text search.
I use vim for writing code, and atom for taking notes, or just reading code. Then they shut down atom and it sucks.
I hate that I need to dedicate so much time to finding new tools in tech. It’s nice that vim doesn’t change.
Pulsar is the continuation of Atom
Really? That’s awesome thank you!
what about sublime? it has projects, folder file trees...
I switched from Sublime to Textmate and then to Vim a long time ago then added Atom back in because everybody else used it. I’m not so good at retracing my steps decision wise.
I’ve been using sublime.
I guess something about the “your code as a thumbnail” navigation feature kinda bothers me. Seems to go against the idea of small, readable files.
Back when I loved that feature, I was still writing 1000-line files.
I use NeoVim, but I don't hate Microsoft (they contribute a lot to Linux kernel). What is wrong with me?
most of us hate the government and yet we use the roads
I feel like microsoft's gameplan is less "everyone must use windows" these days and more "we want to gatekeep tech on as many levels as possible". I'm wary of relying on anything they put out. I think we've all recently seen what big tech companies do when they decide its time to monetize more aggressively.
Right now helix is pretty good for what I do with it.
I use vscodium and ms office 2016, fight me
I'll be interested to see how JetBrains's Fleet works out. I like Rider a lot more than full Visual Studio (also Rider is actually available on Linux).
And Mac. MS just sunset VS for MacOS.
You use whatever works best for you. Microsoft Lens, on Android, is still unmatched for scanning, correcting perspective, and cleaning up whiteboards. No OSS tool comes close - and, believe me, I tried to use others (or, other; I think OpenScan is the only thing that attempts something similar). It would be foolish to not use a tool that you like using and doesn't have any hidden consequences, merely because of on opinion.
I don't think VSCode is particularly good, myself, but the point remains: it's free, I haven't heard anything about it surreptitiously sending info to MS, and if it works for people, then great.
I agree with being pragmatic, but the opinion of hating Microsoft isn't unfounded. There are pragmatic reasons to avoid building up and entrenching yourself in tooling that doesn't respect you as a user or is controlled by companies that has interests that don't align with yours.
I didn't say iy was wrong to hate Microsoft. I said that it's silly to ignore the best tool on only principle. You might not want it because it costs money, or collects telemetry, or because you want to avoid vendor lock-in; these are all reasons that have a grounded cost, even if the yool is best in class. But just because you don't like the company itself?
If MS took VS Code away tomorrow, devs would switch to something else. That's a cost I'm not willing to pay, but if they are... eh. If Microsoft took Lens away, well, we're fucked, because the OSS community has not offered any solution that works better than just taking a picture and cleaning it up in GIMP.
I think the proprietary version MS distributes does send telemetry data to them but I personally just use VSCodium, which is based on the open source VS Code version.
Probably. I have no doubt that Lens (the aforementioned tool I used to use) does. In the career I had, I had to give up the telemetry, because I had to use Lens. There is literally no practical alternative. Sometimes, you just have to pay that cost. Heck, I'd have bought a telemetry-free alternative from someone else if it worked as well, and if anyone offered one. Which they don't.
I'm beating that dead horse because it baffles me everytime I think about it that, in a veritable app ocean of calculator, chat, and everything else, Lens is apparently unique.
Is Lens just an app to scan documents using only your phone camera or does it something else that makes it so useful? I sometimes need to scan stuff like that too but haven't find something good that's open source.
Lens is, among other things, a camera app that recognizes whiteboards, auto-crops to the whiteboard, and auto-corrects the perspective. It can also clean the image, removing smudges and dry-erase dirt, and do basic color adjustment and B/W conversion. It's designed specifically for whiteboards, but works on documents. And then, when the image is cleaned, it makes sharing via email directly from the app particularly easy - sure, it only removes 2 or 3 clicks, but it does streamline the process.
It's pretty amazing at what it does. When you're in a tight space and have to take a picture of a whiteboard at some absurdly acute angle, it works miracles. I've never had it not impress a coworker who's never seen it do its thing.
I don't know who MS acquired to get it, but it's simply a fantastic program with no competition.
I don't like using proprietary software but this does sound really useful. In school I take my notes on a laptop but oftentimes I need to take pictures of sheets or the whiteboard to put it in my notes, which always looks really bad. I might check this out for that purpose. I tried to find something open source that could do this but haven't found anything either.
Believe me, I've tried many times over the years to find an alternative; no dice. However, if you do find something, please try to remember me!
I was using Atom, but that died. I work with both Python and Fortran, and VSCode works for my usecase, but I'm open to suggestions.
Pulsar was forked from Atom and lives on!
https://github.com/pulsar-edit/pulsar
Didn't know about this, will definitely give this a shot. There's also Lapce, which doesn't use Electron and looks promising.
I almost see Pulsar as the anti-VSCode/Microsoft in a way. Microsoft slowed development and killed Atom in order to promote use of VSCode. Instead of letting it die we decided to keep it alive and offer it as a viable alternative. So in some sense it almost exists just to spite Microsoft's attempts to kill it.
Nice! I used atom for about a year before it was discontinued and switched to just using Kate. Definitely going to have to checkout pulsar, thanks for dropping it here.
I switched to Kate eventually myself. Using the KDE defaults where possible to reduce size encouraged me to do it
I switched to neovim. You can also use a text editor for more basic stuff
I wouldn't say I "hate" Microsoft (or Apple, or Google), but I recognize the harm they do to the free software movement and to the technology world in general. I wouldn't avoid a good quality free software just because it's made by a GAFAM company (as long as I stick with the free parts and avoid proprietary extensions), just like I wouldn't use proprietary software just because it's not made by GAFAM.
The point isn't to hate GAFAM but to seek freedom and control over your computing.
Emacs will be there for you, once vscode gets abandoned.
We are talking about a code editor, not a whole operating system!
/s
You will be delighted to read about Evil mode, which is a vim-like editor for the Emacs operating system. 😁
Emacs will be there for you, once
vscodeWindows gets abandoned.FTFY.
Free software doesn't have owners, that is kinda the point.
Make something better and I'll switch to it
Neovim
Neovim works well. I also use just a generic text editor sometimes
nano! Covers 99% of my coding and config needs, it works remotely and it's available nearly everywhere!
I also use nano for smaller things
I rather use notepad++ masterpiece
Do you run it though bottles?
I use vscodium btw.
@flashgnash
VSCodium: https://vscodium.com/
Agreed, I share the same frustration (including for Chromium) as if developers were somehow blissfully ignorant of the political and economical power they give away to company that use and abuse their work, truly self flagellating.
I was using Sublime Text for many years. Even after Atom came out I still used ST3. However, ST development is understandably slow compared to VSCode and it is now so far behind that loyalty isn't enough of a reason to continue using it.
I don't use it.
Which is why I said many and not all
Sure. Just wanted to say this in case the hypothesis is skewed. I use Github, which also belongs to Microsoft. But I guess if you're looking for a proper IDE and something that's widely adapted and has lots of plugins available... There aren't many alternatives to choose from...
Vim. viiiiiiiiim
Developing in C# in Corporate, so C# debugger only works on VS Code sadly
I need to use VSCode at university because their version of neovim is too outdated for my config...
Vscode, the chrome browser with a ide suit. No thanks
And vscode doesn't even work properly. The amount of colleagues I have using it for C++ and they can't even get intellisense working with the f-ing thing. It's bonkers they work that way. It takes them ages to do anything, and its not a case of them being super experienced and not needing those aides.
Playing the devil's advocate here, even IDEs like Visual Studio and IntelliJ have multiple times crashed on me or taken ages to update a single line on intellisense. C++ is simply a language where a dynamic LSP is everything but easy to make.
I have nothing to say about CLion. I have been using it for large codebases, rust and C++, for ages. Even with neovim+LSP I get better results than vscode
Well, given the C projects I've worked on take hours just to compile, I think I can cut some slack for any IDE for being slow. Though I haven't used CLion a lot so I can't really speak from experience about it. Though VSCode is fast enough most of the times, and it usually only gets slower with nested macro fuckery and/or external library headers.
Because it's one of the few good microsoft products
I honestly don't get it. I had to use it on a job until recently and needed a few plugins for it to be useful. Every major plugin either got worse over time or never fully functioned to begin with. On top of that, it was sometimes slow as fuck despite me having a rather strong machine.
It borrowed the concept from old editor such emacs. It is a modern emacs. A single editor to do literally everything via plugins. The idea is that one needs to learn a single editor to master everything.
It is very powerful for people who do multiple things. It's not worthy if the whole job is to simply writing java or c#. In that case a dedicated ide is better
Not me, i use and like a lot QtCreator... Granted, i work with C/C++ so... But its Open Source, cross-platform, has tons of integeations with analyzers debuggers and various tools.
Kdevelop never triggered my bells and CodeBlocks just doesnt feels right for me, but thats me.
For everyrhing else vim or kate depending on how i feel.
I love vscode. But this thread made me want to learn neovim just so I don't have all my eggs on a single basket.
I use neovim for the vast majority of the programming I do but I do still have VSCode installed. Maybe I should just delete it? I opened it after I saw this post and there was a whole bunch of extension updates just sitting there.
Kinda wish GNOME builder was a bit better at being a general purpose editor. That's just because I'm a bit of a GNOME/GTK pervert though and I would love to use a sexy looking app for dev work.
I use na-no :3
I get confused by non-modal text editors.
I keep trying to switch to Micro but my fingers are too used to the bonkers keyboard shortcuts
It's definitely one of those "a broken clock is still right twice a day" situations. It's a good product and I find it invaluable for PowerShell scripting. I have, however, been trying to dial in emacs for PowerShell.
baby steps. ill be on neovim one day i swear!
i use sublime instead
Intellisense is the reason
Even Codium is pretty bloated though since it's still electron.
Also Sublime Text supremacy
Isn't it proprietary?
Just learned about zed and helix yesterday.
whhats that
I have helix, but how's zed?
For helix, plugins are on the way
Tried Kakoune? It's not bad.
I actually do not use it, not out of any kind of moral stance but it just runs slow for me.
Y’all use VSCode??? Whatever happened to good ol’ Sublime Text?
Both are text editors, but VSCode's plugin system and various config options can turn it a fully fledged IDE for the languages of your choice.
Besides, Sublime is exactly that: good, old.
But this is a Linux community. What about doing one thing well?
So you don't like GNU Emacs. Got it.
"Do one thing well" doesn't mean the sum of the parts only does one thing. The larger system can be complex, it's the individual parts that need to be simple, specialized and interchangeable.
Does one thing well refers to apps in the unix philosophy
There are simpler and better solutions than Sublime for that use case, IMO.
Still checks out I'd say, each plugin does one thing well.
Besides, I think we're past that dogmatic way of thinking, it often doesn't work as well for user facing applications where we want things to just work and that is easier to get right when an app is all-in-one
It’s easier for me when each function is represented by a different icon in my alt-tab app switching. If I want to edit code I switch to my editor. If I want to run commands I switch to my terminal.
Having multiple functions within each app means I need to learn and memorize the navigation between functions within the app. It might be ctrl- or shift-alt-x or whatever.
When each app does one thing, navigating between them is standardized.
Sublime Text is proprietary, which makes it a non-starter for many including myself. VS Code, on the other hand, might be developed by Microsoft but there is a liberated version called VSCodium that has none of the telemetry and such.
That being said, on GNU/Linux I prefer Kate.
I hate Windows. I'm too young for all that Microsoft drama, so they're fine in my books.
It's quite common knowledge, Microsoft does horrible operating systems but great dev tools. Visual Studio (not vscode) was amazing to develop software.
And thanks god we don't have to deal with Eclipse anymore.
The real question would be why the open source community cannot create a better dev tool that's not outmatched by a glorified text editor.
Vim and screen have always met my coding needs
For all their faults, Microsoft are rather good at languages and the tooling around them.
I'm not sure why people are surprised by that. I mean they are a software company. Their procedures, tools, methodology etc. for software development have been refined over the past 50 years. You don't take over the world with just evil tendencies, you also need to put out decent software in a competent manner.
I don't hate Microsoft that much. But I do hate that remote ssh for a while didn't work on codium resulting in having no choice but to use vscode and getting used to it.
Have you had a merge conflict yet? A breeze to manage with GH Desktop + VSC
A merge conflict is a breeze to handle in the terminal. I haven’t seen any tools that improve on that substantially.
5 years of merging conflicts, I still don't know when to use --theirs or --ours
This is the first I’m hearing of those flags. Is it a way of specifying commits without knowing the hash?
I've done it with vsc, haven't used GH desktop do you use it alongside vsc or does it just do a similar thing?
I use Linux on my home desktop and my work desktop but I also keep a Windows install on my work machine when I need to test Windows things there. On Windows, I haven't found a better Git GUI than fork.dev. It's not open-source but it is what one of my favorite creators calls "organic software": Ukrainian husband and wife duo that warms my heart. The evaluation period is unlimited without nags. I've found it to be the perfect Git teaching tool and the best merge conflict resolver I've ever seen.
I still use TortiseGit just for merge conflicts. The editor is more intuitive to me.
And one tought: i do despise microsoft and i dont care if any of its products seems good. They re there to infiltrate and destroy, they have always been from msdos times, and rest assured thats what they will do also with vscode/codium.
Do not fall into this trick, make good products better, dont piggy back on who showed to stick it in your rear end again and again over time.
What's interesting about it?
I'm not sure why people even use vscode over vim
Definitely dislike MS, generations of my workstations have small, yellow "Microsoft Free Workstation" stickers on their monitors, but VSCodium (in my case) is not really bad.
Also I really like the Xbox360 console and (as a hacker and maker) still love the first Kinnect. The Kinnect is an excellent piece of sensor-hardware, was rather cheap when purchased in used condition and it works very well with Linux.
I also use Bing. I hate big companies in general, but I will use their products if they're good. Google is an exception, because to use their products I'd have to sign into my phone, and give them even more access, which I don't want to do.
honestly, after atom died and vscode announced it would stop supporting mac, i knew i needed a change. i found i could replace 80% of it with tmux and vim plugins, and some bash tricks. so thats where i am now. it takes commitment for sure
When did vs code announce they would stop supporting Mac?
They are mistaken. Visual Studio for Mac is being retired next year, not vscode. Not the same program...
Good good good good. We just wrote a huge batch of quick start on boarding scripts to set up new devs with a good baseline vs code configuration
It's not. It's Visual Studio that will stop supporting Mac, not VSCode.
eli5, but isn't visual studio code a part of visual studio? or why is it not? or is this like a java/javascript thing where they are named similar because of popularity but have no codebase in common?
Those two are completely different products.
Visual Studio is a full IDE which include full microsoft SDK (C++, .net, etc), while VSCode is a text editor forked from Github's Atom text editor (which was the precursor of the Electron framework), with a javacript editor core called Monaco.
The line is getting blurrier these days, but in general:
with visual studio, you don't need to install anything else in order to build a windows app or a .net app. In comparison, with VSCode, in addition to installing various extensions in order to reach feature parity, you'll need to install the compilers and various libraries separately.
using VSCode as a default text editor is no brainer as it launches in a few seconds. On the other hand, if you set visual studio as a default text editor, merely opening a text file can take significantly long time due to waiting for the ide to initialize.
https://devblogs.microsoft.com/visualstudio/visual-studio-for-mac-retirement-announcement/
kibi master race
@flashgnash also edge is a great browser we just hate it because of the way they force you to use it
Netbeans for the win(at least for Java, I don't know how good it is for other languages)
https://thenib.com/mister-gotcha/
I hate Windows and dislike a lot of Microsoft products, but I think we're way past Microsoft being the bad guy. They kinda like Linux now, and probably do more good than bad for it. There are much worse companies in tech, I think Microsoft's worst crimes as of late is creating Teams and being boring.
Please look up "Embrace, extend, extinguish". VScode is open-source for now, but all the microsoft extensions you need to turn it into an IDE have DRM on them and microsoft puts work into trying to make those extensions not work with VScode forks.
WSL is the same thing. They start by embracing linux and soon they'll start installing MS crap into the guest system or shipping their own distro that's filled with it. This is the extend part. The final goal is to extinguish desktop linux and make everything WSL to be able to track it all and harvest shitloads of data.
I'm well familiar with EEE, I've used Linux off and on for something like 20 years, back when Microsoft really was the boogeyman. I don't think VS code qualifies for this category since it was originally (ish, has roots in Atom I think) open source and Microsoft. It was never embraced/extended, and extinguishing their own product makes no sense. (btw I don't even use VS Code, shit vim plugins in my experience, jetbrains all the way)
WSL IMO is a concession on Microsoft's part, because most dev tools nowadays are being made primarily with Linux in mind. It's what makes Windows at all usable as a development platform in many situations. And pretty much nothing developed specifically for WSL. All WSL has on a normal Linux distro is integration with the host system AFAIK.
Speaking of crimes, Wsl2 is GUILTY and shall be judged INSUFFICIENT
We got to be mature. Microsoft (and many other corporations) are a problem due to their unfair practices. But this is not a moral war against them, when we are not the problem. If we have vscodium, which is opensource and it has telemetry removed, which is the problem?
I would be happy if they didn't made the internet a worse place, if they weren't greedy billionaire assholes, if they didn't have a monopoly, but vscode does not affect my sleep.
Run three flavours of Linux at home and love Microsoft. Why does everything have to be in opposition?
On the first we can agree. But that certainly isn’t how they behave now.
On the second, I dare say that’s “what if” conjecture. You could easily argue that the de facto monopoly of Windows allowed computers to be on every desk which lead to the world today. I’m not sure that’s the case, but the argument stands on no less flimsy ground than yours IMHO.
I hated Microsoft in the 90's and 00's but today's MS is not that bad. VSCode in particular is a good example of MS now being a good citizen of Open Source.
And as other said, if you don't like the telemetry in VSCode there are forks without it.
Why would anyone on Linux use VSCode??????
Because it's a good editor, it's open source and have Linux binaries.
The MS extensions are quite convenient, like Live Share and the MS C/C++ extension. There are equivalent free versions, but those are more work to setup and might not have the full feature set.
Best LSP client list outside of NeoVim. If you want to be productive, NeoVim and VSCode are the top choices right now
Because VS Code is the best code editor. What else could I use? It's neither too basic nor too heavy like Jetbrains IDEs.
nope, I deeply hate microsoft and I don't use their products. Millennials don't know the history.
Most of this thread reminds me how unbearable the open source community can be.
The FOSS absolutism is exhausting.