Microsoft Needs So Much Power to Train AI That It's Considering Small Nuclear Reactors
https://futurism.com/the-byte/microsoft-power-train-ai-small-nuclear-reactorsOpen linkView original on lemmy.world1141
Comments398https://futurism.com/the-byte/microsoft-power-train-ai-small-nuclear-reactorsOpen linkView original on lemmy.world
The thought of a nuclear reactor running on Windows is terrifying.
They’re going to build it in 2026 but it’ll still somehow be running on XP.
If they make it Windows ME then we ARE ALL DEAD!
Have you tried turning it off and back on again?
XP is still a solid OS as long as you don't connect to the internet.
A nuclear reactor connected to the internet sounds like a bad idea.
I mean it’s fine so long as someone remembers to pay the Mcafee bill right????
„Your reactor has been temporarily disabled due to license payment issues. Please consult [email protected]“
Not that you're safe even if it's not connected to the internet (stuxnet comes to mind)
I'm not sure why you think it would be connected to the internet.
They'll probably not use Windows, instead opting for an OS that is proven to work with already running reactors, like QNX
They should run Arch, btw
Even Microsoft does not trust Windows on Azure 🤣
Modern nuclear reactors are designed to fail safely, so Windows couldn’t actually create a Chernobyl. Everything wrong with nuclear in our world is with old-gen plants. It’s a technology that got ahead of itself by 50 years.
Yeah, there's very little information in the article on what type of reactor they plan to use, but I hope they're able to go with something like a molten salt reactor with a thorium fuel cycle.
Getting half a dozen of those built and in use would be exactly the kind of thing that tech billionaires are actually good for.
Fuck that. Take all the government grants and subsidies that would surely exist, and then use it for their own good/profit/power hoarding? No thanks.
Putting billionaires in control of our nuclear power infrastructure after "building" them with mostly taxpayer money, when it's all said and done, is an absolutely bone chilling thought. Terrifying.
I don’t know why you think government subsidies exist - so impoverished single moms can build power plants? No. They’re pork for billionaires by design, to get them off their asses and steer them into directions we want to go. Like venture capital, they are also high risk. Our federal budget can support some level of this and it’s frankly needed to drive change in new or stalled industries where the motive for immediate profit isn’t strong enough to overcome the cold start problem. If your hatred of billionaires keeps you from making smart energy choices to address climate change, then your priorities are wrong.
The picture they show is from terrapower, the company Bill Gates funded, which is a thorium reactor. Thorium liquid salt reactors are still difficult because of the metallurgy. I believe they were supposed to fit the small modular concept though.
Hm… risk of nuclear disaster? Or more expense? Hm… I’ll have to think about this one.
Your logic is fallacious: the solution is not to build a nuclear reactor but seek an alternative.
Yes I understand. It was a cheeky reply. But alternatives are actually limited if you consider all the benefits of nuclear: high energy output, limited land use, no dependence on weather or time of day, no massive subsidy to Chinese manufacturing, no carbon, all resources mineable in the US, waste all physically contained…
Got alternatives to that?
The best alternative is probably a diversified system of sustainable energy sources, along with batteries.
Hm.. invest into your companies cybersecurity before or after you get hacked?
Companies don't care enough about risks if they are not forced to account for them.
Lol, even Microsoft wouldn't use Windows to train AI.
Like Microsoft uses Windows for anything that matters since they got rid of Balmer.
But... Developers!... /s
A lot of them do IIRC, windows 98 is popping into my mind as an instance I've read of
Windows NT or 2000. Not 98.
Ah yes you're correct, Windows 98 is (was?) the British nuclear submarines
Now THAT is wild as hell.
Could be worse, could be running MacOS. Surely nothing bad can happen while the entire system freezes for no reason for 15 minutes or more without any possible input from the user. It will always fix it self... (hopefully before the reactor achieves a run away meltdown chain.)
What are you running? I’ve never had an issue like that at all
Reminds me of that time the technodork ran his minecraft reactor with opencomputers and lost his base because the computer blue screened. Almost as funny as that time the entire city lit up because they were using raw radio signals to control their reactor and a nearby thunderstrike instructed the reactor to drop all the fuel and go supercritical. This is why you add realism to video games, it leads to hilarious stuff like this.
EDIT: That was actually the same server where they sabotaged the entire electrical grid to blow up everyone's base as a send-off and mine was the only one standing at the end because I was the only one who bothered to set up a surge protector under OHSA (Omega Haxors? Safety!? AHAHAHAH!) it just so happened that the system designed to save the grid from my many exploits just so happened to work in reverse.
A corporation running a nuclear reactor to train AIs might just be the most cyberpunk news headline I've ever seen.
This gave me an idea for some level design I might want to use in a video game.
I just like element-based levels in video games. Even water levels. Some even can present some time-based challenges, like saving a nuclear reactor from meltdown, or retrieving something from an area like that.
I wanna play your game lol
Better than coal or oil, it might even result in more R&D into reactor designs.
Yeah, I don't understand why building a relatively clean energy source is a bad thing. Reactors are now like 3+ generations past the versions that were super dangerous. Hell, they even have reactors that can use spent fuel from other reactors.
Oil lobby and other interests. Follow the money. Plus it's easy to play on people's fears about radioactive waste.
Oh well, countries that know what's what just quietly build and use their reactors and go about their business. Finland for example is set for a while now.
Environmental groups are the biggest opposition to new nuclear builds.
Which is ironic because they like electric vehicles, and spent car batteries will soon become just as big of a problem as nuclear waste.
It's a bit of "not seeing the forest for the trees" situation, we have an immediate climate problem we're trying to stave off, if these are the things that will wean us off fossil energy than that's what we have to do for now and we'll cross that other bridge when we come to it.
The fallacy here is that any reactor that you initiate for planning even immediately at this very moment will come years or decades too late to affect our power composition and keep us under 1.5°C, which means that such projects distract society from the importance of green/renewable energy solutions like wind or solar, which we CAN expand very quickly and which WILL have a measurable effect on mitigating the effects of climate change. Solar and wind are the only things that can replace fossil in time.
True, but let's not forget that there are lots of perfectly good reactors sitting around unused, who could be brought back online within a practical time frame. Existing reactors is really what the debate is about, not those that don't exist.
You can recycle lithium batteries.
Someone on here made an interesting argument showing how conservative politicians are actually pushing nuclear hard. They do this to steer interest away from other renewables, but also because they know nuclear will go nowhere. It’s politically unviable with voters and regulatory bodies. The point is that the bottommost issue is public perception and bias against it. If we could overcome that, we’d at least have a fighting chance.
There’s no shortage of modern reactor designs. We have amazing stuff designed and even prototyped and proven - low waste, safely-failing reactors that basically can’t melt down. All we really lack is funding and regulatory clearance to build more.
Cortana, can you design a nuclear reactor to train you better?
Searching “Design a nuclear reactor to train you better” on Bing…
Yes daddy
This is what corporations mean when they say "reduce carbon emissions"
You say that like it's a bad thing
It is, because corporate greenwashing will tell you that they reduced their emissions when all they did was scale up production using green energy. Their actual emissions didn't go down they just went down relative to their growth.
I thought this was a generic nuclear bad response, but in that case I definitely agree.
I thought this crazy energy consumption shit would cool off a bit after assholes stopped bitcoin mining.
Glad AI stepped up so we can generate bad art and prose while buttfucking the planet
So we finally get thorium power, but its only used to make celebrity porn for incels.
Hey, whatever keeps them out of Walmart parking lots at 1am.
Like there's somewhere better to buy celebrity porn at 1am. Psh. I'll believe it when I see it.
Nice!
Honestly getting Thorium power AND never having Incels leave their home or interact with society again sounds like a win-win.
Maybe we should focus on the collapsing ecosystem then instead of training AI datasets.
Nuclear power means they can do both.
Hear me out:
What if we used that nuclear power only to fix the environment?
Ok, find someone willing to pay for one for that purpose.
Microsoft isn't 'we'
You're free to invest in nuclear power for that purpose if you want.
Microsoft is investing in nuclear power to run their AI projects. They likely wouldn't be investing in nuclear power if they didn't have projects that needed it like this.
And the U.S. government wouldn't have invested in all of the development that went into the Apollo program if they didn't want to beat the Russians, but we still all benefitted from the science and the research and the development.
No. Nuclear power is not anti climate like the other fossil fuels, but still anti ecosytems.
How exactly is a nuke plant antiecosystems? Under that guise, pretty much anything humans do is as such.
Uran mining & nuclear waste.
Nuclear power still requires huge front costs (goal of SMR is to reduce that, but first generations will not solve it), so it could be better to use them for every day life needs rather than a prospective commercial venture.
Only if there's a meltdown, and that's near-impossible with current reactor designs. Just don't build in very disaster-prone areas like Florida or Japan.
I think you have misread the comment you replied to.
Indeed. Using nuclear power avoids causing trouble to the ecosystem.
AI might be a fantastic tool to help fix the environment, though.
People aren't listening to human scientists and you think they'll be happy with an scary AI saving the planet?
If they're not listening to humans or AI, then they're not going to be happy with anything and should probably be ignored.
Unfortunately it's hard to ignore the people running your country.
I doubt the people running the country are worried about a "scary AI saving the planet." Their main concern is ignorant masses of voters who are scared of it.
It will be used to drive more consumption.
It will be used for both. The way out of global warming is going forward in technology, not backward.
We already use AI in climate change models. This is a large language model that honestly, we don't need.
bold of you to assume microsoft is interested in that
We already know how well Microsoft optimizes code, so this comes as no surprise.
Building and maintaining one isn't really the concern I have with this one, nuclear reactors are incredibly safe these days. What are they going to do with the nuclear waste? That's the real issue here. Governments can barely figure that out, how's a megacorp going to do that in an ethical way? I already see them dumping it in a cave in some poor country in africa.
If they're actually using a new type nuclear reactor, the small portable ones, then the waste is both incredibly small and recyclable. Nuclear technology has come a long way since the decades old reactors, we just haven't built very many new ones to showcase that.
It's a shame we aren't seemingly taking them into consideration in the whole energy transition crisis we are in.
But rather let's just keep sending people into hazardous coal mines while ignoring nuclear energy until the solution to all our problems magically comes to us.
What do you mean by this, nuclear of all things is supposed to be the solution? Maybe fusion some day, but definitely not fission. But that's fine, because we already have a perfectly capable and renewable solution, and that is called wind and solar. The sun is doing fusion every day for us and irradiates the surface of the Earth so much that we could support many multiples of our civilisation.
I'm not trying to say nuclear is the definitive solution, but it's certainly a step in the right direction. Progress is progress, we don't have to find the final solution in one go.
Solution already magically arrived. It's called nuclear
As noted elsewhere, these don't create the same kind of spent fuel as a PWR. So that helps.
But also, the people who designed the PWRs didn't just say "and then we'll make shitloads of unmanageable waste lol!" Up until the Carter Administration, we ran a system called "reprocessing" that essentially shredded and dissolved the old fuel rods, isolated the metals chemically, and packed out separately.
France does this. Finland does this. Japan does this. Their waste concerns are negligible compared to ours.
Meanwhile Carter, bless his heart, determined that reprocessing was a proliferation risk, and shut down the US industry, saying "y'all will figure out a way to dispose of these things".
So now we are using circular saws to hack these things apart, cramming them into barrels stuffed with kitty litter (you read that right), and hoping that nothing will happen to the barrels for 50 million years?
Long-term waste disposal became an impossible problem to solve in the US because our one and only allegedly nuclear-savvy president made the solution to the problem illegal. It became one immediately, and has never stopped being one.
How much nuclear waste are we talking about? Every time I've seen any actual quantity mentioned, it's tiny.
I'm generally against nuclear--or more accurately, think the economics of it no longer make sense--but there's one thing I think we should do: subsidize reactors that process waste. It's better and more useful than tossing it in a cave and hoping for the best. Or the current plan of letting it sit around.
I mean you say that as if just burying it isn't actually the proven safest option.
Startups are already beginning to explore using old oil drilling equipment to sink nuclear waste below where it'll pose a threat, after it's been suffused into a shitton of concrete of course.
Very rarely is nuclear waste of the corium toothpaste variety, more often it's the old hazmat suits that are getting replaced and need to be disposed of with special care, or expired rods you can still have limited contact with without many issues.
Weird thing is, I'd trust them to not abandon the reactor during a budget shutdown...
Nuclear waste is a technically solved issue with long term geological storage, long term dangerous waste which requires more tech is a very small mass. The problems are political, uneducated people are irrationally scared of those waste that they associate with Chernobyl so they oppose any kind of geological storage, and politicians don't have the balls to openly contradict them.
They'll ship it to India/Thailand
Governments aren't exactly known for efficiency. A corporation is less likely to bogged down by just the mere fallacy that "other entities can't figure it out, why should they do it?"
The human body produces a lot of electrical impulses. What if they just took all their workers and put them in some type of "work pod" and harnessed the energy to run the large scale AI?
They might get bored though. Maybe hook them up to some kind of virtual reality world.
Yes, and they could just live in the virtual reality so they never have to stop providing power. It'd be perfect
Imagine spending chunks of time in there hooked up to a device set to lose weight. Essentially just setting your intake to -300 calories a day and spending a month in there.
It's called meth.
I mean you could have the AI make interesting scenarios for them!
this is the matrix
wooshNO, this is Patrick
That's the joke. The Wachowskis both ended up being trans sometime after they made The Matrix.
This is lemmy but it's cool you can access it from matrix.
It would cost more energy to feed them then they would produce. /s
That's just energy conversion. Loss is expected.
This is what happens when you don't teach your kids the Laws of Thermodynamics in school...
The reason is ultimately irrelevant, but I welcome more nuclear energy.
They could just invest in a solar farm or something, they are just a lot more economical.
Nuclear is okay, but the costs compared to renewables are very high, and you have to put a lot of effort and security into building a reactor, compared to a solar panel that you can basically just put up and replace if it snaps.
You probably know this discussion already through.
Edit: Glad to see a nice instance of the discussion going here.
In their specific use case that won't really work.
They want to use all of their available property for server racks. Covering the roof with solar won't give enough power/area for them. A small reactor would use a tiny fraction of the space, and generate several times the power. That's why it'd be worth the extra cost.
For those who haven't seen this discussion before, I feel like doing the next step in the dance. Cheers Plex.
It's important to note that nuclear is capable of satisfying baseload demand, which is particularly important for things like a commercial AI model training facility, which will be scheduled to run at full blast for multiple nines.
Solar+storage is considerably more unreliable than a local power plant (be it coal, gas, hydro, or nuclear). I have solar panels in an area that gets wildfire smoke (i.e. soon to be the entire planet), and visible smoke in the air effectively nullifies solar.
Solar is fantastic for covering the amount of load that is correlated with insolation: for example colocated with facilities that use air-conditioning (which do include data centers, but the processing is driving the power there).
While you are right about baseload being more satisfiable through nuclear, you are wrong that it's in any way important for AI model training. This is one of the best uses for solar energy: you train while you have lots of energy, and you pause training while you don't. Baseload is important for things that absolutely need to get done (e.g. powering machines in hospitals), or for things that have a high startup cost (e.g. furnaces). AI model training is the opposite of both, so baseload isn't relevant at all.
It's not life-critical but it is financially-critical to the company. You aren't going to build a project on the scale of a data center that is capable of running 24/7 and not run it as much as possible.
That equipment is expensive, and has a relatively short useful lifespan even if not running.
This is why tire factories and refineries run three shifts, this isn't a phenomenon unique to data centers.
Sorry, but that's wrong. You'll run it as much as is profitable. If electricity cost goes up, there is a point where you'll stop running it, since it becomes too expensive. Even more so considering that AI models don't have a set goal to reach - you train them as long as you want and can, but training a little bit extra will have diminishing returns after a while.
Not really, the limiting factors in AI training are mostly supply of cards. The cards already in use will stay in use until they fail, they won't be replaced with newer cards the second they get released.
This is comparing apples and oranges, since tire factories:
have long-term planning and production goals to reach
have employees who must be planned
have resource input costs that are higher than electricity
Of course you want the highest utilisation that you can economically reach, but a better comparison would be crypto mining - which also has expensive equipment that has a relatively short useful lifespan even if not running, and yet they stop mining when electricity is too expensive.
"And you pause training while you dont." lmao I don't know why people keep giving advice in spaces they've never worked in.
What are you trying to imply? That training Transformer models necessarily needs to be a continuous process? You know it's pretty easy to stop and continue training, right?
I don't know why people keep commenting in spaces they've never worked in.
No datacenter is shutting off of a leg, hall, row, or rack because "We have enough data, guys." Maybe at your university server room where CS majors are interning. These things are running 24/7/365 with UU tracking specifically to keep them up.
What are you talking about? Who said anything close to "we have enough data, guys"?
Are you ok? You came in with a very snippy and completely wrong comment, and you're continuing with something completely random.
The more people who invest the better the tech becomes the more the price comes down. Nuclear is excellent base energy
This is false. Nuclear has a very competitive levelized cost of energy (LCOE). Nuclear has high upfront costs but fuel is cheap and the reactor can last much longer than solar panels. The big picture matters not just upfront costs.
Source: https://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2015/08/f25/LCOE.pdf
Yo better check your fuel prices: https://www.economist.com/finance-and-economics/2023/09/21/why-uranium-prices-are-soaring
Plus imagine how expensive uranium will get once we start relying on nuclear. It'll be the new oil.
Raw material is usually a small fraction of the cost of refueling. I would also argue that the Russian-Ukrainian conflict is a small blip in the lifetime of a reactor, ~80 years. Transient pricing will have a negligible effect on the LCOE.
Not only that, imagine how thrilled nature and the environment will be at massive extraction efforts ripping apart landscapes to provide fuel for a method of generating power that is obsolete since at least three decades by now.
Don’t need to, just down-blend from the available fuel used from weapons put out of commission as a result of disarmament treaties.
Now, about those materials used to construct solar panels…
Sucks to wait for the sun to come out to make Bing answer though. "Disclaimer: Answer dependent on cloud cover or night time".
Do you seriously think that Bing trains an AI model when you send a request? Why would they do that?
Oh, they're working on it. It's dumb, but it's happening.
I can't imagine they are. What would the training data of those models be? Why would you train the model when the user sent a request? Why would you wait responding to the request until the model is trained?
Often, these models are a feedback loop. The input from one search query is itself training data that affects the result of the next query.
Sure, but that's not done with the kind of model this thread is about (separate training and inference). You're talking about classical ML models with continuous updates, which you wouldn't run on this kind of GPU infrastructure.
You'd get used to it awfully fast though.
are you arguing solar is more economical than nucleae cause if so youre wrong by a longshot
That was true 20 years ago. You are working off extremely outdated information.
No, you are. Solar is much cheaper than nuclear is.
Yeah, I don't know where nuclear advocates got the idea that their preferred method is the cheapest. It's ludicrously untrue. Just a bunch of talking points that were designed to take on Greenpeace in the 90s, but were never updated with changing economics of energy.
I can see why Microsoft would go for it in this use case. It's a steady load of power all the time. Their use case is also of questionable benefit to the rest of humanity, but I see why they'd go for it.
The people who actually put money into energy projects are signalling their preferences quite clearly. They took a look at nuclear's long history of cost and schedule overruns, and then invested in the one that can be up and running in six months. The US government has been willing to issue licenses for new nuclear if companies have their shit in order. Nobody is buying.
The article here is literally talking about a company that wants to.
Invest in a next generation technology that is yet unproven, but hopes to solve the financial problems that have plagued traditional reactor projects. And years away from actual implementation, if it happens at all.
Yes, because humans in a capitalist society are always well known for making the best decisions possible based on the good of humankind. Nothing else factors in whatsoever.
For anyone too thick, profit. Profit factors in above literally everything else. And short term profit at that. We shouldn't make decisions of what's best for society based on what massive corporations decide is best for their bottom line.
If you're implying nuclear would be the better option outside of profit motive, please stop. We have better options now.
If we cleared every hurdle and started building reactors en mass, it would be at least five years before a single GW came online. Often more like ten. Solar and wind will use that time to run the table.
Edit: Also, this is a thread about a company dedicating a nuclear reactor to training AI models to sell people shit. This isn't the anti-capitalist hill to die on.
Right, let's welcome throwing millions or billions of dollars at wasting enormous quantities of concrete and water and at generating highly toxic waste that will irradiate its environment for millennia, and at ripping apart landscapes to extract uranium, I mean that's such a nice thing, we need much more of it! It's not like we already have perfectly renewable solutions to providing power...
This seems kind of ideal though, computers provide a near constant load (relatively speaking) that combines very well with nuclear energy.
Perhaps we should be asking why we haven’t already been doing this for the past decade?
Tell me more about how capitalists efficiently allocate resources.
This may actually be one of those things where it turns out to be worth it (for them anyway), if they can get some major technological advancements out of it.
There are so many other things in the world that are way more wasteful and way more pointless.
Or you get an overlord ai that isn't dependent on the larger power grid so it doesn't have any reason not to launch the nukes. You know they're going to harden these things.
One of the important skills you learn as a science fiction fan is the ability to understand what fiction means.
Then please learn what a facetious joke is.
God pls send the singularity I tire of this meat 🙏
This comment was a joke right? "Launch the nukes"? What nukes?!? Do you not know the difference between nuclear power generation and nuclear bombs?
Yes. It's just a joke about Skynet and AM. People are really quick to jump to dogpile without realizing it's a joke. The idea wasn't that it would use its reactor as a weapon, but it would access the military's weapons. Without needing outside power, it have no reason not to.
You misread that comment, they are saying that the power generation will be detached from the grid if they go this way and then if the AI gains control of nuclear bombs (separate thing from what the article is about) like shown in fictional stories they'll not have a reason to not use it as they won't be afraid of affecting their own power generation
Yeah, being ruled over by something without any accountability or oversight is a terrible thing. I'm so glad we don't live in a world like that. /s
Honestly, I'm not sure an AI could fuck it up any worse than humans are.
It definitely could because AI can only reflect what it's trained off of and the only sapience to train off of is humans.
Allocative efficiency in economics just means that you can't make someone better off without making someone else worse off.
An efficient allocation isn't necessarily equitable.
And the first welfare theorem of economics only claims that the market will produce an allocatively efficient result if its complete, in perfect competition, and everyone has complete information. Which has the obvious problems of those preconditions not matching reality.
I predict that within 10 years, computers will be twice as powerful, ten thousand times larger, and so expensive that only the 5 richest kings of Europe will own them
I guess history does repeat itself. Next you’ll be telling me that 640GB of RAM is enough.
Someone let me know when personal computers need TB of RAM
Windows 13 isn't that far away.
!Remindthem 6 years
Will the LLMs be useful for dating?
Hi bing. How do I stop a nuclear reactor from going critical?
For those correcting my error It was just a joke. The only things I know about nuclear power I learned from the simpsons and Kyle hill
you turn it off.
"critical" is the normal operating state of reactor when it's working. what you want to avoid is supercriticality, which means that power is rising. if it's delayed supercritical but prompt subcritical, power rises and may or may not stop on its own at some point. when it's prompt supercritical, you don't even have time to ask https://www.nuclear-power.com/nuclear-power/reactor-physics/nuclear-fission-chain-reaction/reactor-criticality/
Modern reactor design also pretty much makes runaway reactions nearly impossible, as in, you have to actually try to fuck it up.
Even Fukushima didn't have a runaway reaction, it just lost coolant.
Don't turn it on? Critical means a reaction that is exactly self sustaining, i.e. a constant power level.
Buy MS office subscription.
LLM seemed really impressive at first, but it made it to “this year’s NFTs” in record time.
Fusion won’t be ready by then
Energy should be public
energy, water, food and housing should not be used for profit. Everything else is fair game.
Nah, not everything else. You can add healthcare to the list.
Agreed! Idk why that didn't come to mind.
The irony is very funny considering your username :)
And healthcare. You know, all the stuff to keep us alive.
But there's so much profit to be made in things required to survive.
There isn't a price point at which I'll choose to quit using food and water.
Max Planck seems to have learned from the Fraunhofer mp3 thing and is getting their hands dirty with commercialising Stellerators. "In the 2030s", right now they're drafting, maybe simulating. Awfully short on details right now if you understand anything about fusion.
Just fill the Country with Solar, Wind and Water... won't take 10 years and will be cheaper too.
I can't handle this . i'm going to sleep.
that's what the operating system running the reactor would say
At least we hope that it will do that when it can’t handle the reactor - it puts reactor to sleep.
I guess the rich don’t have an energy crisis.
Imagine if it ends up requiring the achieving of ignition for Microsoft to launch a version of clippy that is able to reliably comprehend English grammar enough to make writing recommendations.
Burning 3 continents worth of coal to steal artwork at maximum efficiency.
Do nuclear reactors use coal?
sorta does tho
It's only stealing if you make it generate the copyrighted art and claim it as yours. Otherwise, it's not any different than artists being inspired by existing art.
literally, no finding or law supports the claim you have made, but there are several cases that have been ruled contrary to your statement. now sure, these didn't pertain directly to AI, but they did pertain to the argument of an artist "being inspired by existing art"
Tell me u know nothing about AI without telling me you know nothing about AI...lol
Yes, thanks for pointing out that you know nothing about "AI", and by "AI" I assume you mean the iterative learning models.
Maybe for you, buddy.
Seek help.
🙄😚
Does it matter what they claim they’re going to do differently in the future when they’re burning indefensible amounts of coal right now?
Let's not bring that X/Twitter shit to Lemmy.
I'm genuinely floored this is the comment you were replying to. What does that even mean??!
Saying training generative AI models on artists' work as stealing artwork.
Because it literally is. If you knew the exact terms to get the the AI to recreate something in its training data, it could, 1:1. And if you ask it to create you something new, no matter what parameters you use it will look like a mess of garbage data. Generative AI is literally just art laundering just like how Language Models are writing laundering. We tend to use humanizing language but ultimately it's a machine which uses a bunch of dials and levers to determine how much % a work should resemble one piece in its training at a particular point of the work and how much it should resemble another in another. There's a reason why a lot of modern image bots have literal fucking watermarks all over their outputs. Because the images were flat out stolen.
The tech itself is pretty neat, you're essentially making a virtual brain and having it do useful work, but ultimately all the capitalists running these tools see it as is another method to bring the public under their exclusive and totalitarian control. We could have had a cool roboartist putting out new and unique works but instead we get people losing their job because an inept system hyped up by silicon valley fart huffers claimed it could do their work for free and it only gets worse as these AIs use their own garbage outputs as training data.
That's because you told it to. Don't make it recreate existing art then.
This is not always true. You can train it on a certain style and a photo of a random object, then have it generate an image of the random object in that style. It will "understand" the concept of a style and an object.
Exactly why I'm not supporting the closed source paid services (Midjourney, ChatGPT, Bing Chat, DALL-E etc.) and instead advocate for open source projects like Stable Diffusion and LLaMA.
If you took a random concept and explained it to a person they could using their existing knowledge set, draw it somewhat competently. That is because people are able to apply knowledge to make something new. If you told someone to recreate something that already exists, even if they're a professional, would never be able to recreate it no matter how much time and effort the put into it. AI can do the latter because it's basically copying, and it can't do the former because there's nothing to copy from.
Theoretically it can, but it would involve meticulous and proper labeling of each training data. Currently most of the trained data are automatically labeled and they're not descriptive/verbose enough. I believe the improvements from the latest version of DALL-E is due to OpenAI's use of a more advanced image labeler.
This is the way.
Coal? Did you miss the nuclear part?
AI needs that's much power?
Fuck you, ditch it like a Zune and make some more video games.
Or make some more Zunes.
I miss my Zune. Oddly enough, every person I've met who had a Zune had it stolen, including me.
And they only ever made one.
Mine was never stolen, to break your streak. I had one of the little 4GB ones.
Technically he didn't meet you so the streak is still on.
So you're saying I need to stalk them down and introduce myself? Seems like a lot of work to avoid being incorrect, but since this is the internet I am obliged to do what I must to be correct.
More Zunes, please. My Zune 30 has dead pixels and the battery is on its way out.
Damn thing lasted longer than my marriage and an 8 year relationship after that.
The power consumption is factored into the cost of AI. It's still profitable after that, or they wouldn't be doing it.
It's the biggest buzzword right now, it doesn't matter if it's profitable. I doubt most uses are directly profitable right now. It'd more of a FOMO situation - if we don't use AI, we're OBSOLETE! AHHH!
If it turns out not to be profitable in the long run then people will stop.
Should we never even experiment?
That's basically exactly my point. Seems we agree lol. I was just poking fun at the fact that it feels like just about every large tech company is doing it, just like when the metaverse was all the rage... Or crypto, or...
Or Windows Phones 📱
Windows phones were nice, except Microsoft made them even more locked-down than iPhones...
Here's a nice video of a guy training an AI to do a relatively simple task (driving a Trackmania trac) with a very limited amount of inputs with low variability, 2-3 outputs and very hardset restraints.
Compared to what he does, a rather narrow defined re-enforcement training scheme, Microsofts AI takes many more inputs and has many more outputs and all the inputs are highly variable (massive amounts of data like dictionaries, images, movies, entire texts, speech, etc compared to a handful of parameters with values from -1 to 1) and also is a mix between re-enforcement, supervised and unsupervised training. With different subnetworks trained for different things eventually working together to do the master task they have in mind.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dw3BZ6O_8LY
What is shown in the video is what you'd do for a tiny subsystem of the AI Microsoft, Google, Apple and the like develop.
Kinda like if you watched a video about "this is what it takes to make the bolt that keeps your wheels on your car" you'd only have seen a fraction of what it takes to make the whole car.
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I don't get why a train AI would need so much power, how hard is it to drive a train?
Will the nuclear reactors be on the train with the AI, or will it be some sort of wired transfer?
AI's going to kill us off by doing what we do better than us. Consuming resources and producing waste. And we're already pretty good at it.
I’m not opposed to new nuclear energy in principle. However Microsoft, an unrelentingly bad organization that consistently acts in bad faith to its customers, employees and businesses parters, and is seemingly dedicated to making awful products that never meaningfully improve, is not something I would trust to do nuclear safely.
Thankfully, any actual new type using modern tech have self-limiting reactions. Thorium ones, for example, can't meltdown because the high heat in that process kills the reaction itself.
VSCode is cool, no ?
I will never forgive them for telling Microsoft Games to stop developing Freelancer 2.
Microsoft has invested in several fusion projects too.
Yesssss
I don't give a shit about training AI but the idea of Microsoft running nuclear reactors is hilarious to me. Either they do it well and we all benefit from the knowledge, or Windows goes out with a bang
Small Modular Reactor technology is the future, and it's really promising.
Self-contained (no onsite refueling), mass produced (cheap, higher quality), and modular (add more for more power, or small enough to power a data center).
Here's some quick videos from a professor of Nuclear Energy covering topic:
Small Modular Tractors:
Micro-Modular Rectors:
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I guess the nuclear power people are gonna become Microsoft fans... powered by nuclear power.
Mega corporations should not be allowed to use nuclear power plants purely for themselves.
Also, if you need that much power to do something bthat a human brain does with under 100 watts, I really think you're doing it wrong
If you're so smart why don't you come up with a way to do it under 100 watts???
Also this is training them not using them. Using an ai consumes significantly less power than the process to train it sort of like how humans take more to learn than to put something in practice.
People tend to forgot the millions of years of horribly inefficient evolution it took to develop the human brain.
Don't think the point that's being made is "smarturr" but rather that stay within the margins of available power.
I think his point is that the person he responded to is proposing well meaning feeling based policies without having any real knowledge of any of the negative impacts his policy would have.
I feel like I'm in that butterfly meme, going like is this what reasonable conversation is like.
<3
Organic technology is hard. If you can figure out how to grow a compute system you will take human technology hundreds of years into the future. Silicon tech is the stone age of compute.
The brain has a slow clock rate to keep within its power limitations, but it is a parallel computational beast compared to current models.
It takes around ten years for new hardware to really take shape in our current age. AI hasn't really established what direction it is going in yet. The open source offline model is the likely winner, meaning the hardware design and scaling factors are still unknown. We probably won't see a good solution for years. We are patching video hardware as a solution until AI specific hardware is readily available.
I am so excited for the advances that neuromorphic processors will bring, which is not exactly my field, but adjacent to it. The concept of modelling chips after the human brain instead of traditional computing doctrines sounds extremely promising, and I would love to get to work on systems like Intel's Loihi or IBM's TrueNorth! If you think about it, it's a bit ridiculous how corporations like Nvidia are currently approaching AI with graphics processors. I mean, it makes more sense than general-purpose CPUs, but it is at the very least a subideal solution.
I bet it'd be a whole lot easier to grow and organic computer if you didn't have to worry about pesky things like people thinking you grew genetically engineered slaves.
The whole language model scene system started with "we accidently found something that kinda works" and is now in full "somebody please accidently find a way so it uses less power" mode.
Why should they not be allowed? Nuclear power plants are great options and will mean less demand on worse energy providing sources
Because safety and profits aren't going in the same direction. They would cut corner for reduce the costs. Which is how you end with a nuclear accident. And then it would be to the tax payer to kick the bill.
SMRs are pretty safe. That's not the issue. It's that they're thinking about using a whole fucking nuclear reactor to train AI to sell you shit.
Microsoft is big enough that government would force them to pay up. There is just too much public pressure for that kind of disaster to get waved away.
Also, there are nuclear options that are far safer than water-based reactors. WCRs are literally the worst possible design for a nuclear reactor, and we were stupid enough to choose that over dry material reactors in the 60s.
Lmao
Just like they made the banks pay up? Like how they make oil companies pay up?
Right now it's commonplace for oil rigs and nuclear plants to be decommissioned on the taxpayer, sometimes entirely funded by them even, rather than by the company.
Almost all nuclear power plants in the US are privately owned and operated. Regardless of whether you agree with it or not, this isn't new
Not a terrible argument. How do we limit compute vs. output?
I would take longer, but I bet I could do it. All ChatGPT does it's basically regurgitate StackOverflow answers at you, and I've been doing that for years in my professional life
I'm not one to be all doom and gloom about ai, but giving one its own small nuclear reactor, presumably one that's in close proximity to it and separate from the local power grid... that's obviously going to have substantial security measures around it... and be that much more difficult to cut off if need be....
I mean, it's starting to sound a lot like an unbelievable plot hole in a bad sci fi movie isn't it?
people need lots of energy for life as well, now what??
Its going to be all for nothing at the end of the day.
I've played this game and know where it's headed. They've decided to create Vega. Prepare for them to announce Argent Energy soon.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
Training large language models is an incredibly power-intensive process that has an immense carbon footprint.
Now, The Verge reports, Microsoft is betting so big on AI that its pushing forward with a plan to power them using nuclear reactors.
Yes, you read that right; a recent job listing suggests the company is planning to grow its energy infrastructure with the use of small modular reactors (SMR.)
But before Microsoft can start relying on nuclear power to train its AIs, it'll have plenty of other hurdles to overcome.
Then, it'll have to figure out how to get its hands on a highly enriched uranium fuel that these small reactors typically require, as The Verge points out.
Nevertheless, the company signed a power purchase agreement with Helion, a fusion startup founded by OpenAI CEO Sam Altman earlier this year, with the hopes of buying electricity from it as soon as 2028.
The original article contains 346 words, the summary contains 147 words. Saved 58%. I'm a bot and I'm open source!
That’s pretty cool. I would have guessed it would be cheaper to use wind energy.
Cheaper but unreliable.
While I appreciate them going a greener route, if these chat AIs are still this inefficient to simply train, maybe it is best left to return them back to the research phrase.
You say "simply train," but really, the training of these models is The most intensive part. Once they are trained, they require less power (relatively) to actually run for inference.
So it sounds like they need a shitload of GPU power. You know what also costs a shitload of GPU power crypto mining? Could they not outsource the work to all those GPUs that stopped mining crypto once it plummeted?
I am surprised this hasn't become a community project already. I assume there is some limitation that I am unaware of.
The limitation is intellectual property. You need to model to train it, and no for-profit company is going to just give that away.
But they (MS) are planning on doing it either way, why not crowdsource and even pay a small pittance for the GPU power? I think it would be popular... there are a lot of sad people with extra GPUs sitting around not being used for much.
There's tradeoffs. If training LLMs (and similar systems that feed on pure physics data) can improve nuclear processes, then overall it could be a net benefit. Fusion energy research takes a huge amount of power to trigger every test ignition and we do them all the time, learning little by little.
The real question is if the LLMs are even capable of revealing those kinds of insights to us. If they are, nuclear is hardly the worst path to go down.
That makes zero sense
Oh my Gwyn, this comment section is just amazing.
Yeah, every time AI or nuclear energy is mentioned the quality of the comments plummets. Since we have the two combined in this story, the results are tragically predictable.
Capitalism will make humans extinct at this rate.
We've probably got about 10yrs of normalcy left. Economically, we're already deviating. Greed is what destroyed us all.
Is this the new crypto mining is bad story?
Only if you think developing small nuclear reactors is a bad thing. I think it's a good thing.
Yeah, there's definitely some parallels between how people negatively reacted to crypto and the current wave of reactions towards AI. My personal theory is that a lot of people are becoming hostile towards big tech, and anything that's seen as the next big thing in tech will quickly get negative reactions.
I honestly think crypto (as a currency, not an investment opportunity) has real useful potential. A non-government controlled form of money that can be used internationally and privately is actually really useful. Problem is everyone started buying into it as a pyramid scheme investment instead of buying into it for its value as a form of currency. Blockchain has some other uses too, I know some privacy focused apps use it for syncing user privately.
AI also has great potential, it can do things that were otherwise not possible with modern tech. It's definitely not as efficient as the other methods, but that's a moot point when regular computer systems aren't capable of something and an AI system can.
Biggest issue with both is that they're a technology that's suited to specific things, but the "all-in on crypto" or "all-in-on-ai" approach is wasteful and causes a lot of problems along the way.
It's grim to think the driver for renewable energy will be the demand for endless AI synthesized child porn.
Just go to Chernobyl and build there. Deal with the aftermarch now instead of later. The order matter because then they will understand there is a big problem with nuclear power.
Yes, it have even happened in modern time. Look at what happened at Japan 2011 fukushima. It will happen again. Political/economic/misstakes will happen again. Just look at Russia firing at nuclear plants... we are doomed.