I think what the manosphere misses completely is that we're all human before we're man or woman. Yes, im a man, but first and foremost Im a human, and humans cry, take care of babies, cook, clean and everything else that some might see as "feminine."
I am completely devoid of any experience of this manosphere. When I grew up, I'd ask for help from girls because I was crying all the time and I didn't want to be crying all the time. Later learned it was from trauma. But most of the girls and women I talked to would say some variation of "why are men so afraid to cry?" like lady I'm not afraid, I just don't want to, because being sad sucks. I want to stop being sad.
Or the doing the dishes, or taking care of babies, that was something that all the men did in my family, equally, going back to 1940's Detroit.
And this kind of culture was the only one I ever experienced in school, partly because almost all of my teachers were women.
So to me, these memes about men being afraid to cry or do things seen as "feminine" are not just frustrating, they're downright upsetting.
I'm not saying it doesn't exist, but are you sure it exists to the degree you think it does? Like have you taken a survey and checked the numbers, and if you did, are you sure you're not confusing somewhere like NYC with somewhere like Birmingham, Alabama?
My experience is totally different. Growing up in Australia in a single-sex school, men cooking or cleaning were laughed at by teenagers, unless it was the barbeque since it's manly. "Get back in the kitchen" jokes and "make me a sandwich" jokes were everywhere and amplified once our classes became co-ed.
The invisibility of toxic masculinity at that age was the most damaging thing. Nobody wanted to be seen as weak, so there was never a chance to understand what being strong truly meant. I think single-sex schools are unfortunately breeding grounds for the manosphere.
I always hated crying , hated feeling emotions, never wanted to be seen as weak emotionally. I'm still suffering the consequences of that environment, as suppressing sadness impacted everything else.
Edit: apologies, did not realise what community this post was in. Did not mean to ignore the rules.
Grew up in South America. Crying was treated with violence in many occasions. But it was more systematic and dependant on context... Like if the male kid having the tears was a popular one or after a lost football match, then was okay-ish or met with some surprise. If it was any other kid with "lower maleness" (e.g. other sport than football, or a kid that also happened to be sigma, or beta) then there was a high correlation of violence. This was excercised by other males, as part of a ritual to their own maleness. Yeah. Crazy stupid.
The terms sigma and beta are just made up bullshit. Even the original wolf study was about captive wolves and was subsequently disproven by studies of wild wolves.
Human relationships and hierarchies are far too complex to be explained this way.
First, the "alpha male" in a wolf pack is a myth. Not entirely the same thing you just said. Also, I'm not writing a sociological study. I am just saying "alpha", and "sigma/ beta" to make a distinction among kids, with a term that people use. So, even if the basis was wrong, the terms are used and we can't deny their existence. The guy that wants to be "alpha male" may be very well pursuing a myth. sure. unfortunately, he's still behaving like that: punching the other kids (to whom he may be categorizing as "sigma/ beta male" even if it were not using the words) for not being male enough. Exercising their desire for a hierarchy. Based on a myth, yes.
There's a quote about Bell Hooks that says... something something. I won't use it. Maybe the context is not entirely right.
No i haven't studied it, but just from seeing random social media posts by people with millions of followers, it's definitely a thing. Of course it's probably a minority but even if it's 1% of Americans that 4 million Americans bathing in this fucked up sexist ideology.
I don't want to come off as rude, because this is awesome and should be shared more. However, I know this is a community for women, and men technically aren't allowed to post. Is that waived for this thread?
I think this should have been posted to a different community probably, so men are open to discuss it. That's the point of it, isn't it? It sucks that the first time I'm seeing it on All is a community that is explicitly not who this is helpful to.
Anyway, I love this post! I hope it's shown everywhere.
That's not my intent. This community specifically has a rule banning men from commenting. (This is not a criticism of this rule either.) I was curious if that's waived for this post. It's specifically a post about and for men, but men aren't supposed to be allowed to comment here.
Sure. But if the point is to try to "fix" masculinity, which is seemingly the point of the post, that needs to involve men. You're allowed to discuss anything you want.
I will point out, the comments seem to fit my point where it seems it's mostly men discussing it. I also assume the rule is waived, for this reason. I have seen no removed comments or warnings about the rule. I'm literally the only person who has brought it up. If there's no official response, the rule is de facto waived for this post.
If the point of the post is to say "men should act like this, not that" then yes, the point is fixing. Sure, it might not actively be aimed to externally influence, but it is trying to point to a solution to a problem, aka a fix.
Why are women not allowed to discuss masculinity without men?
I clearly said they are. The point of the post seems to be aimed more towards a solution to a problem though, as I stated. If you want it to happen, it needs to reach men. I guess you can just not want things to change, but I don't think most people do, and I'd wager the OP doesn't want that.
Anway, again, the moderators of the community seem to agree that men are allowed on this post since I'm the only one who has discussed this rule. Usually they're pretty quick on asking men not to comment (which is fine and good), but they haven't here. I noticed this so I asked. I guess I could just not ask and assume it's allowed.
I'm aware. The point is this is where the discussion is already happening. Making a new post doesn't inherit the attention.
The discussion here is with both men and women, so the rule is at least not enforced for this post. Personally, I think this is the right call. Its not my community though so it isn't my call to make. That's why I was asking.
I meant more vaguely I hope to see it around, because the OP didn't create this. People from this community don't have to be the people doing it, obviously. Hell, most of the people commenting on it don't seem to be from this community. I'm sure it is posted elsewhere, but this is the place I saw it.
I apologize. I came across this post while browsing "all" on my phone app. I didn't know there were specific rules excluding men from sharing. Thank you for the heads-up. I'll delete my post and leave the community.
Ok, but you have to understand that being able to cry because you named a moon crater (after a loved one) while in space is... not really something everyone can do.
On a more serious note, yes, I agree. What many want to make us believe to be peak masculinity is actually peak fragility. You have to be a special kind of fragile man to believe that crying makes you less masculine.
So any time I listen to music that’s honestly beautiful. I instantly get teary eyed. It’s from brain damage from concussions. But anymore when I get moved by music. I can’t control my emotions. It’s a curse.
meh. I can’t even walk down to my kitchen and remember why I went down the stairs. I can’t remember people’s names seconds after we talk. I can’t keep up a conversation because I forget what we are talking about. It’s pretty bad plus ADHD on top of that. Probably on the spectrum but I’ve never been tested.
The masculine part is that a man saw a need that a member of his group had, a need for support and empathy, and he provided it despite the possible cost to his own ego.
A toxic male builds himself up, a real man builds up his community.
A toxic male displays his strength for show, a real man uses his strength to protect those weaker than them.
Fixing isn't masculine, women can fix things and not be manly.
Sports aren't masculine, women play sports for fun and competition
Kind of a high bar.
They said peak, not entry level. This is advanced masculinity.
A pro-masc move, if you will.
Start with just sharing your feelings with the bros and go from there
It's a peak not a bar. Go hug your bros.
A bar so high it’s on the far side of the moon.
I think what the manosphere misses completely is that we're all human before we're man or woman. Yes, im a man, but first and foremost Im a human, and humans cry, take care of babies, cook, clean and everything else that some might see as "feminine."
I am completely devoid of any experience of this manosphere. When I grew up, I'd ask for help from girls because I was crying all the time and I didn't want to be crying all the time. Later learned it was from trauma. But most of the girls and women I talked to would say some variation of "why are men so afraid to cry?" like lady I'm not afraid, I just don't want to, because being sad sucks. I want to stop being sad.
Or the doing the dishes, or taking care of babies, that was something that all the men did in my family, equally, going back to 1940's Detroit.
And this kind of culture was the only one I ever experienced in school, partly because almost all of my teachers were women.
So to me, these memes about men being afraid to cry or do things seen as "feminine" are not just frustrating, they're downright upsetting.
I'm not saying it doesn't exist, but are you sure it exists to the degree you think it does? Like have you taken a survey and checked the numbers, and if you did, are you sure you're not confusing somewhere like NYC with somewhere like Birmingham, Alabama?
My experience is totally different. Growing up in Australia in a single-sex school, men cooking or cleaning were laughed at by teenagers, unless it was the barbeque since it's manly. "Get back in the kitchen" jokes and "make me a sandwich" jokes were everywhere and amplified once our classes became co-ed.
The invisibility of toxic masculinity at that age was the most damaging thing. Nobody wanted to be seen as weak, so there was never a chance to understand what being strong truly meant. I think single-sex schools are unfortunately breeding grounds for the manosphere.
I always hated crying , hated feeling emotions, never wanted to be seen as weak emotionally. I'm still suffering the consequences of that environment, as suppressing sadness impacted everything else.
Edit: apologies, did not realise what community this post was in. Did not mean to ignore the rules.
That was a powerful sentence. Too busy not to look weak, so you can’t understand what being strong truly means.
Well put!
Grew up in South America. Crying was treated with violence in many occasions. But it was more systematic and dependant on context... Like if the male kid having the tears was a popular one or after a lost football match, then was okay-ish or met with some surprise. If it was any other kid with "lower maleness" (e.g. other sport than football, or a kid that also happened to be sigma, or beta) then there was a high correlation of violence. This was excercised by other males, as part of a ritual to their own maleness. Yeah. Crazy stupid.
The terms sigma and beta are just made up bullshit. Even the original wolf study was about captive wolves and was subsequently disproven by studies of wild wolves.
Human relationships and hierarchies are far too complex to be explained this way.
First, the "alpha male" in a wolf pack is a myth. Not entirely the same thing you just said. Also, I'm not writing a sociological study. I am just saying "alpha", and "sigma/ beta" to make a distinction among kids, with a term that people use. So, even if the basis was wrong, the terms are used and we can't deny their existence. The guy that wants to be "alpha male" may be very well pursuing a myth. sure. unfortunately, he's still behaving like that: punching the other kids (to whom he may be categorizing as "sigma/ beta male" even if it were not using the words) for not being male enough. Exercising their desire for a hierarchy. Based on a myth, yes.
There's a quote about Bell Hooks that says... something something. I won't use it. Maybe the context is not entirely right.
No i haven't studied it, but just from seeing random social media posts by people with millions of followers, it's definitely a thing. Of course it's probably a minority but even if it's 1% of Americans that 4 million Americans bathing in this fucked up sexist ideology.
Hu... Oh... Oops.
My mom died from cancer 5 months ago and watching this live had me ugly crying on my partner's shirt.
I don't want to come off as rude, because this is awesome and should be shared more. However, I know this is a community for women, and men technically aren't allowed to post. Is that waived for this thread?
I think this should have been posted to a different community probably, so men are open to discuss it. That's the point of it, isn't it? It sucks that the first time I'm seeing it on All is a community that is explicitly not who this is helpful to.
Anyway, I love this post! I hope it's shown everywhere.
Seriously? Of all posts this is the one you want to "um acktually"?
they didnt do that.
they asked if they (men) could dicuss this post here since its not posted anywhere else.
can we do that? post it elsewhere too, so men can? I love this post too
That's not my intent. This community specifically has a rule banning men from commenting. (This is not a criticism of this rule either.) I was curious if that's waived for this post. It's specifically a post about and for men, but men aren't supposed to be allowed to comment here.
Sure. But if the point is to try to "fix" masculinity, which is seemingly the point of the post, that needs to involve men. You're allowed to discuss anything you want.
I will point out, the comments seem to fit my point where it seems it's mostly men discussing it. I also assume the rule is waived, for this reason. I have seen no removed comments or warnings about the rule. I'm literally the only person who has brought it up. If there's no official response, the rule is de facto waived for this post.
If the point of the post is to say "men should act like this, not that" then yes, the point is fixing. Sure, it might not actively be aimed to externally influence, but it is trying to point to a solution to a problem, aka a fix.
I clearly said they are. The point of the post seems to be aimed more towards a solution to a problem though, as I stated. If you want it to happen, it needs to reach men. I guess you can just not want things to change, but I don't think most people do, and I'd wager the OP doesn't want that.
Anway, again, the moderators of the community seem to agree that men are allowed on this post since I'm the only one who has discussed this rule. Usually they're pretty quick on asking men not to comment (which is fine and good), but they haven't here. I noticed this so I asked. I guess I could just not ask and assume it's allowed.
I'm aware. The point is this is where the discussion is already happening. Making a new post doesn't inherit the attention.
The discussion here is with both men and women, so the rule is at least not enforced for this post. Personally, I think this is the right call. Its not my community though so it isn't my call to make. That's why I was asking.
I meant more vaguely I hope to see it around, because the OP didn't create this. People from this community don't have to be the people doing it, obviously. Hell, most of the people commenting on it don't seem to be from this community. I'm sure it is posted elsewhere, but this is the place I saw it.
I don't really post. I should, but I don't.
No.
I've got to be honest, I watched this live and it made me shed a sneaky tear... I'm 54 this year.
No need to be sneaky about it, be open with your emotions! You'll be enjoying life a lot more friend!
Aragorn, son of Arathorn, cries. You tell me you're more manly than Isildur's heir then I call you a liar sir
Okay, ChatGPT
Do you read as well?
I apologize. I came across this post while browsing "all" on my phone app. I didn't know there were specific rules excluding men from sharing. Thank you for the heads-up. I'll delete my post and leave the community.
you dont have to delete your post the mods will do it for you at some point 👍
Ok, but you have to understand that being able to cry because you named a moon crater (after a loved one) while in space is... not really something everyone can do.
On a more serious note, yes, I agree. What many want to make us believe to be peak masculinity is actually peak fragility. You have to be a special kind of fragile man to believe that crying makes you less masculine.
Friendly reminder that this absolute fucking loser is what people are basing all the "sigma" bullshit on:
I'd be bawling like a baby
Cuz we lost everything...
We had to pay the priiiiiice...
Fuck yeah! Crying feels good sometimes!
So any time I listen to music that’s honestly beautiful. I instantly get teary eyed. It’s from brain damage from concussions. But anymore when I get moved by music. I can’t control my emotions. It’s a curse.
I don't think that's from brain damage.
meh. I can’t even walk down to my kitchen and remember why I went down the stairs. I can’t remember people’s names seconds after we talk. I can’t keep up a conversation because I forget what we are talking about. It’s pretty bad plus ADHD on top of that. Probably on the spectrum but I’ve never been tested.
I just meant to say beautiful music making you tear up is a pretty normal thing. I do it all the time.
All the best to you, I hope your condition improves over time. :)
American cringe at its best
Real women hold me down by my weak little bee wings in order to repopulate the hive
I'm confused what is masculine about this. Did the man fix the moon crater while the other man played sports in it?
The masculine part is that a man saw a need that a member of his group had, a need for support and empathy, and he provided it despite the possible cost to his own ego.
A toxic male builds himself up, a real man builds up his community. A toxic male displays his strength for show, a real man uses his strength to protect those weaker than them.
Fixing isn't masculine, women can fix things and not be manly. Sports aren't masculine, women play sports for fun and competition
Thank you. Is real man the natural parallel with toxic male?