Why is everyone so giddy about the flooding thay happened at burning man?
Social media seems to be laughing its ass off about this tragedy, is it because the folks at burning man are perceived as frivolous hippies or something? Everyone I’ve ever met who was a regular burning man attendee has been a solid human being with strong morals, personally and financially responsible, a career. Upstanding members of society for sure. I guess all some people know is the sensationalized drugs and sex. A person died. This is a tragedy for an event that brings positivity into the world. Kind of annoyed.
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It's also because Burning Man, at least in the last decade or more, just turned into another affluent, rich white people and influencer event. Whatever it was to start, it's effectively glamping now.
Sure, there are definitely some genuinely good people there, lower middle class, saved up and took their only vacation time they get all year to spend a few days there, and it sucks this happened to them. If those people end up in the hospital and the shitty insurance they get from work does fuck all to help mitigate the expenses, I'll even get angry on their behalf.
But the majority of them? They spent a lot of money, money most people don't have the luxury of getting to spend, on a pointless self-indulgent festival in the fucking desert, and this time it's come back to bite them. My sympathy is extremely limited.
They'll be miserable for a few days, get out, dry off, and go back to their easy lives. Their affairs are taken care of back home, they can miss days of work, their hospital stays will be covered, etc.
It's kind of like the Fyre Festival. Those people got fucked over hard, but those people were also not the kind I particularly pitty. Spending a lot of money on an experience only to be miserable for a few days is not a tragedy. What happened to the poor people that lived there is the tragedy.
Edit: Also just want to point out OP is trying to call this a "tragedy" when there's only been one suspected death, the cause of which is unknown as it hasn't even been confirmed yet, but the overall mood is positive, and by all accounts everything is being managed. They're trapped, not dying.
https://apnews.com/article/burning-man-festival-flooding-entrance-closed-d6cd88ee009c6e1f6d2d92739ec1ca18
I'm pretty sure it's been that way for at least 20 years...
The only people I've personally known to go to Burning Man was a rich kid in high school who went with his dad who was a marketing high-up at a very big tech company. Always came back talking about trying drugs and seeing some crazy shit, but then on Tuesday it's right back to full days of pointless meetings I guess. I've never been and I frankly don't ever care to, but that alone gave me the feeling that Burning Man is where tech suits go to play hippie for the weekend, and that always felt lame as fuck.
I went a couple of times years ago when it was just starting to turn into what you describe. Had a great time, but it quickly priced me out. Now, it sounds like an influencer-laden hellscape. The addition of premium plug and play sites was the nail in the coffin. That said, a lot of the old time Burners are fucking amazing, creative, resourceful, and helpful people.
Blame sensationalist media on this one, but it's a misconception. Very few victims spent a lot of money on Fyre Festival. Most got tickets which were purported to be "all inclusive" for <$1500 USD (a pretty good deal, had it not been fraudulent). A handful of tickets sold for the $12K price which ended up in the headlines, but the standard price was a fraction of that. There's a good summary of this discrepancy here: https://youtu.be/UBPg5ftCMv8
One of the things I've learned over time is people can have vastly different perceptions of what being "poor" is, and I suspect that's what's happening here.
I think there are those who could not afford to put down the 1.5k you're quoting.
Well yes of course, but there are lots of "poor" people who have maybe been saving up for a vacation and could make $1500 appear for an opportunity if the value seemed good enough. My family wasn't rich growing up, but we would still go on one frugal vacation a year, which probably ended up costing a similar amount. It's definitely not a demographic that I would feel "deserved" getting defrauded and left in a FEMA tent with no food and water for a weekend.
That's not poor at all. I was one of eight kids growing up, and we never, ever, went on a vacation of any kind. It just wasn't possible at all.
completely agree with this take, also OP screams american excepcionalism.
Wouldn’t every event or festival be an exercise in waste and excess? May be e we should just stay at home forever and work
I’ve heard smaller, local burns are better experiences now and are less wasteful. Just like most things, the original spirit and intent of an event gets lost when it becomes bigger and commercialized.
Well it being in the middle of a desert makes it more wasteful.
But yes giant festivals that encourage a lot of travel and needlessly burning things are in general wasteful and potentially excessive. There are other leisure activities, so discouraging festivals is not equivalent to working nonstop.
Isn't unnecessarily lighting stuff on fire kind of the point?
Fireworks?
They build and set ablaze a giant man! It's eponymous!
small local burns are more true to form in that endeavor. people clean up after themselves and are generally respectful.
some bad actors, but it's a nice disconnect from technology.
I like to go and host a alternate dimension themed arcade with silly obscure games.
Ive heard of this lol
haha come on. what are you talking about?
ohhh. I thought you were roleplaying at first!
Ooh, what games? Where?
local burns, whatever seems whimsical and trippy
Burning Man 'promotes' anti-consumerism and communal effort, however attending requires significant financial resources and costs that can and do exclude (most) people, it's living hyprocracy, and an excellent example of capitalism corrupting grass roots ideals. honestly is an absolute joke of a festival.
There is a similar thing not far from where I live. Through an unlucky friend, then the neighbour of their festival grounds, I got to discover the organizers' 'ideals' and 'ethical and ecological approach' first hand. In short: it was about money. And more money. And they managed to turn a large reservoir into a dying punch bowl of acid, piss and shit within only a decade. I suspect Burning Man to be the same, considering the ticket prices. The fact that some poor fools with their heart and soul intact save their little money to visit this monstrosity just makes it more sad.
I don't actively engage in Schadenfreude much, but I do carry a little of it in my heart. If people think flying or driving very far away for Entertainment, and bringing thousands of people into an otherwise quiet place is okay for the wildlife there, and can be in any way an ecological thing, they have understood very little about ecology. And now also ignored by most: the destruction that happens by the thousands of 'poor humans who just wanted to have fun' trampling through the last remnants of life in a drought stricken place.
We are not alone on this planet. Invading a place with our idea of fun is very damaging. We can party perfectly well at home. If home happens to be bleak and sad maybe we should work on that first before invading quiet places.
Just as a counterpoint, the area burning man is held in is one of the most ecologically inert places you could go. There's no vegetation and the only life to speak of is brine shrimp eggs, which are about as threatened as mosquito larvae.
There's still a lot of trash that gets left behind which can travel with wind, but as far as impact on the land goes, it's likely significantly less invasive than your local county fair. There's just nothing out there for them to damage.
No it doesn't. Poor as dirt and go almost every year. So many idiots in this thread have no idea what they're talking about. Just parroting the media.
And yet you spend like Bilbo Baggins?
What if I told you you could be less poor than dirt if you didn't buy overpriced festival tickets?
Clearly, people who classify themselves as "poor as dirt" should not be allowed to spend money on anything they consider fun.
Clearly, if you can afford $400 for a ticket you aren't "poor as dirt". But you go on ahead and decide what my message was :]
the people I knew who went in the past would usually pool money together in order to get all the camping supplies and gas money.
Because I can go camp somewhere for less than $100?
Lmao I've camped for free just by pitching a tent off the side of a secluded road.
I was calculating in gear costs too tbh.
You wouldn't be at burning man then. It's obviously a very different experience.
check again it was up to $575 this year
Ive never been to burning man. I went to Coachella a LLOOONNGG time ago when it was hippies rolling around in the dust. Coachella ain't that anymore, it's instagram rich kids and tech bros. I assume the same thing has happened to burning man.
Some of the worst people I've worked with are "burners".
There's apparently a private jet at burning man this year that was taking off and landing constantly so that people could fuck on the jet - it's fall of Rome style excess in a broken world where most people's basic needs are not met on an enormous scale.
Your statement is fairly tone deaf to the basic objective reality of the "party", OP. The frustrated people at the bottom are feeling a bit of catharsis in the money burning factory closing for a day while they starve and watch.
So like "let's fly on private jets to a nice swiss resort to discuss climate change"
So you think it's okay to laugh at people dying?
Burners by and large are dipshits, but no one reasonable is laughing at anyone dying.
Hot take: fundamentally, yes. The simple fact that people are dying does not render something unfunny.
That said, no one has died yet (well, one person, but that was ruled unrelated to the flooding).
The fact only one person has died speaks pretty well of their community, actually.
How the fuck do you die because it rained and there's mud? Hows that make their community look good?
Did you miss all the memes about the billionaire dying in the submarine a couple months back? People like laughing at dark humor.
Generally no, but this episode of tough hippie mudder has been great.
Way to confirm you're actually as bad or worse than any of them morally. 👍
Judge not least. Splinter and timber. Yeah you do you.
If someone falls asleep inside the giant puppet and they burn him alive with everyone gathered around, I'm sorry but that's just very funny. Dark, but funny.
Why wouldn't it be?
aside from the obvious "rich people exploiting the environment with their hippy party that costs $200 for their cheapest tickets," I saw a video online that brought up a good point that I never considered. The cost of lumber has increased exponentially in the past 3 years alone, jumping to nearly $1700 per 1000 feet at its peak in 2021, but staying between $400 and $600 per 1000 feet in recent months (still high compared to say 10 years ago.) And these people are buying tens of thousands of feet of lumber solely to burn it away in the middle of nowhere where there's little vegetation to absorb the excess CO2 waste. That, along with the climate change protesters being police brutalized just before the event, really puts a sour taste in people's mouths. Especially in a time where "once in a lifetime" weather events seem to be back-to-back.
economic data from: https://tradingeconomics.com/commodity/lumber
Tickets cost about 10x that. I was interested back when it was a cool art exchange, freedom event. But SO many people flock to it as a giant party that it's become restrictive unless your volunteering or bringing an exhibit.
From old burners I have talked to, the entire experience has completely changed. Alcohol used to be frowned upon, now it's common place.
Sincerely with rocket launches now being a daily thing i'm not very worried by that burning lumber.
Rockets mostly use hydrogen as fuel, burning wood is way more polluting than burning hydrogren.
Also John Wilson tried to go shoot at the event and after compiling hours of footage was told that he couldn't use any of it because there was some exclusive licensed coverage provider for the event.
That's not really how plants work.
Photosynthesis turns co2 + water into sugar + oxygen. Cellular respiration turns sugar + oxygen into co2 + water.
The total co2 absorbed by a plant is exactly equal to the amount of co2 used to make all the sugar, cellulose, etc. the plant currently has. Digestion, decomposition, fires etc. undo that.
A mature forest or lawn is carbon neutral: new growth is balanced out by decomposition of old growth.
Distance to plants doesn't matter. What matters is if and how the trees they're burning are being replanted or replaced. .
Thanks for the correction. That helps me better understand how counteracting pollution works
Yesterday in the US it was labour day, 100 of millions of Americans has a BBQ many using coal and wood the impact of burning man is insignificant in comparison
Burning wood just releases the co2 absorbed when growing it.
What are fossil fuels other than captured carbon from plants and animals from long ago?
Rereleasing carbon is the problem now. Wood being sustainable needs a non-surplus in carbon emissions to begin with.
Everything is "carbon neutral" on a long enough timescale. One of many reasons why that expression is 100% unadulterated bollocks. If you're an airline, you can't just offset the damage you do by paying a Bangladeshi farmer two dollars to throw some tree seeds on the ground.
Burning man should become Burried man. Everybody should dig a hole and burry the wood. That is carbon capture.
I am not an expert. So this could just be a naive take. I wouldn't be surprised burying wood actually amplifies the carbon emissions due to some reactions with soil, or something.
I mean, decomposition releases methane over time, slower than burning does, but buried wood in the desert is more likely to petrify than rot. There's a lot to be said for burying wood in certain situations. Hugelkultur (making agricultural/garden mounds out of wood and soil) if done right can do amazing things (everything from creating microclimates that increase biodiversity to supercharging the soil with beneficial fungi/bacteria, to increasing water retention).
I would think the biggest pollutant there would be all the fuel.
Getting there and back (and the location could be charitably described as the arse end of nowhere), all the rented RVs with the air con running... Burning a wooden effigy wouldn't even come close.
Burning Man may be the epitome of the many optimistic and maybe naive qualities of the 90s that were co-opted and exploited in the early 2000s, and turned into the very things they were built to protest against - another being the free and open internet
Yes. I watched it happen. The large number of people that go now pay thousands $$ for a plug-n-play camp and don't contribute their own art (if they even have art). They are not what the festival once stood for.
Hot take
You know what isnt a hot take? Think how much pollution the event generated, how much greenhouse gases.
Seems worth it for a party lol.
Ha. When I said hot take I meant that you were dead-on with that take. But I’m downvoted all over this thread for suggestion nuance and compassion…so fuck hipsters they deserve it.
Because it's a festival in the middle of the fucking desert. It's an utterly ridiculous place to have it and totally extravagant.
They'll go there claiming there to be going I to some kind of getting away from civilisation, hippie commune thing but the amount of effort and infrastructure to make that environment survivable is ridiculous they actually doing more damage to the environment by being there than if they just stayed in the city.
No one's glad someone died but their death has nothing to do with the ultimate problem of them all being there, and without being too macabre, people die music festivals all of the time, usually because of drugs. Most music festivals are held in a field, where it's at least reasonably possible to have basic infrastructure without huge expenses of money and effort.
Well put. I've been twice, 25 years ago and 8 years ago. Some aspects are really cool. Burners can also be insufferable, especially when they make it their entire identity IMO. I will never go back either. Also too old for that shit.
Yeah my SOs mom took us and still goes. We aren't wealthy and usually get discounts. His mom saves up every year for it. The only thing about it I don't like is how dirty it is and how hot otherwise it's really fun and I don't do drugs or alcohol. Fire shooting giant metal flowerbeds and moving castles.
Thanks for your comment, I appreciate it
Aren't there smaller burning man festivals?
There are many copycats and smaller local versions of the same idea. The idea that it's the most unique event in the world is marketing BS form the organizers.
there's definitely a few different ones in Oregon.
Most people don’t even think about burning man at all.
And well, the people of the internet tend to be less fond of more wealthy people, like those that can afford to spend thousands to party in the desert. I may not want them to die just because they went to burning man, but I will laugh at the world essentially raining on their parade.
I don’t get it but ok.
I dislike stupid shit that wealthy people do. People generally also do not sympathize with a nameless faceless entity. "70k people" is not something I can personally relate to. (As opposed to headlines like "kid with cancer" that normally gets sympathy.)
Additionally, there was all the warning signs this festival was going to be a disaster and people spent thousands of dollars on tickets anyway. Much like the submarine these people have to have someone come help them, which yet again, takes for the form of state resources. Once again, the American taxpayer is footing the bill helping save rich people of all ages from their own hubris.
you dont get why people would not be fans of people that exploit other people and the capitalist system to hoard resources that they then waste in rich people gatherings while normal people arent paying rent?
really?you dont get it?
Most people at burning man aren’t wealthy business owners. They’re middle class professionals who can afford to take a vacation.
LOL
A lot of the time, people hear about Burning Man in the context of which privileged asshole grifter attended it. Elizabeth Holmes, Mark Zuckerberg, Elon Musk, etc other billionaires or influencers... And it is described as "tech bros' favorite party" in the media.
So, given that impression of it, I can see how the default reaction to it failing is unsympathetic.
All these people making piles of assumptions that if Elon Musk went once, everyone there must be a rich piece of shit, just makes me want to go even more just to spite them.
I know there's a lot I don't know about it, but what I do know is that for most who go it's about art and being free to express themselves. Really strange how much hate people have for something they likely haven't the first goddamned clue about
So strange to me. I have never been but the people I have met who have gone multiple times and loved it have made me think it’s a force for good.
My first exposure was a wedding I DJ’d, most of the people there were friends of the bride and groom from burning man and they are burned (ha) in my memory as the type of people who go. Even the “pastor” who performed the ceremony. Bride is a travel writer, husband is a doctor. All of the bridal party. Extremely intelligent, kind, funny humble humans all. I played EDM music. Best wedding I ever did.
I think a lot of people who dislike burning man are envious of the glamour and money being flaunted there. Lots of beautiful people, nudity, drugs, money, and partying.
Which I can definitely understand. A lot of people would love to be able to just drop what they're doing and go walk around a desert playing at steampunk dress-up.
Jealousy isn’t the only reason to feel that way. I don’t trust most rich people, not because I grew up poor, but because I didn’t. And the last thing I want is to watch them cosplay as radical artists, because I know actual radical artists.
Ha… I guess that is what people see. I’ve never seen any firsthand evidence that that’s what it’s like. And there are a lot of dumb frivolous events based around motorcycles, airplanes, firearms, super heroes. I think they are dumb but would never laugh if their event got ruined.
Well far be it from me to judge anyone at a music festival but I think for many burning man has some bourgeoisie, fake hippie sorta connotations?
Yep, exactly my confusion…this makes it ok to take joy at what happened? I think the perception is wrong but even if not…it’s fucked up.
When leftists say eat the rich they don't mean it in a nice way.
Are burning man people rich? Not being a smartass, I’m just trying to understand the perception.
Higher up you were talking about a travel writer marrying a doctor. Those motherfuckers are rich.
I don’t take joy in suffering of anyone. My only experience of the Burning man festival is on the hilarious episode of “Malcom in the Middle.” Also, rain in the desert is often a mixed blessing
I always think of the Reno 911 episode, that was hilarious as well.
Generally, they're not. I'd say it's an inclusive crowd that likes to backbite each other. I don't particularly love burners, but this level of distain is ridiculous. A lot of art collective types and their patrons.
who me? i'm just a poor lower class fine art patron.
Not really what I'm saying. If you don't know the type, you don't know the type. Bunch of fire spinners and Etsy sellers working middle class jobs.
Appreciate the reminder
You should have your mom check your house for lead paint.
Oh look, I see you gettin a little sass there now 😚 Don't make me come over there and spank you
Nuance is a dead concept to an online leftist.
Catch em at a bar and they're generally better versions of themselves.
I think - correctly or incorrectly - a lot of people perceive the typical Burning Man attendee nowadays as being a rich and/or famous person who is somewhere between indifferent to + amused by the suffering of other people less fortunate than they. And - again, not saying this is correct - they perceive this as being more of an annoying/inconvenient/uncomfortable thing (lots of wallowing in filth, but only 1 death AFAIK) than a bona fide natural disaster; totally different order of magnitude from what just happened in Florida, for example, or Hawaii.
So it's less serious than a hurricane or flood or whatever in a populated area, and affects much more deserving people; if, heaven forbid, a bomb went off and hundreds of Burning Man attendees died it would be a very different story, and certainly in that case I don't think any decent person would laugh about it, but a bunch of rich assholes stuck in the mud playing "Survivor" for a week is much more farce than tragedy.
I actually think a lot is the opposite. If you think an event like this, attended by the likes of Bezos and Musk, is countercultural, or even “brings positivity into the world”, I have a beautiful bridge in Brooklyn to sell you. Of course most Burners have jobs, it’s a techbro’s dream. Plus, tickets are more expensive than they were in the old days, so real hippies can’t go. If people want to laugh at the suffering of rich people who cosplay as revolutionary, I’m generally ok with that. One big caveat: I’m very sorry someone died, and I don’t think mocking that’s cool, especially if we don’t know anything about them.
The richest people on earth attending doesn't actually mean a single goddamned thing about it. Other than they want to be seen as "cool"...
Well, I guess we strongly disagree.
I'm sure billionaires have once enjoyed every activity you love, which if you were to be consistent, somehow taints all the things you enjoy. Very weird to think that way
An event isn’t an activity. And yes, if an event I loved turned into a meeting place for those people, I’d find a new event.
If Elon Musk and I both enjoyed cycling, for instance, fine. That doesn’t put me in the same space as him. Which is fundamentally different than going to a weeklong party he’s attending. Have your fun, just don’t pretend it’s revolutionary or creating a better world.
It’s just a playground for the riche to do a music and drug festival pretend poor style. Or maybe it has something to do with a bunch of those hippies that nearly killed climate protestors blocking the road on their way in.
Every Burner I’ve ever met has been one of the most entitled, out of touch, morons I’ve ever had the displeasure of talking to. Let’s see where their “radical self reliance” gets them now.
I guess I grew up some next level poor, the only person I’ve known that went to burning man was the son of the owner at a place I worked. He wasn’t that entitled and moronic.
The CEO of one of my companies clients goes there and he's an awful awful person.
Completely unprompted he once said that he was a liberal, but he had to vote conservative because the poorer people in society need the conservatives. So he wasn't even prepared to actually own being an asshole.
And then he goes to a place like that and claims he's going back to nature or some shit, all so he can morally self-justified having a stick up his arse the rest of the time.
I was unemployed both times I went lol. Do people not know about low income discounts?
Low income discounts for festivals, definitely not. I’ve never been aware of anything like that.
The principles are a solid foundation but can be taken for granted depending on income or association. The community is spurred from the principles but still has entitled participants :/ Interesting exercise
Fuck these rich twats
Apparently middle class Americans are now "rich twats"?
It's mostly rich twats with a few upper middle class twats.
Not a thing
Say it louder for the libs in the back
Something 'middle class' Americans may want to notice:
When people are living in abject poverty, you are comparatively 'rich'.
Anger at the 'rich' is at an all time high.
The 'true rich' are out of reach of the poor.
As income inequality grows, this will get worse.
i dont care what happens to rich people
Most of them aren’t rich. They’re middle class. The only reason you think most of them are rich is because of how a lot of the middle class has fallen into poverty. Don’t tear down the people that are still truly middle class.
The truly wealthy are a problem, but they’re a minority at burning man.
It's all relative. If the poor have gotten poorer, then the "almost rich", just by virtue of hanging on to their wealth, have edged up into "rich" territory
Sure, if you want the extremely rich people who actually made you poor to write your narrative for them. Save your anger for the people who actually suppress wages and equity. Not people who just managed to carve out a middle class life by doing some job. Middle class people and poor people are much much closer in wealth to each other than middle class and the truly wealthy who rule this country.
I have plenty of anger to go around, there's no danger of it running out.
Might want to seek professional help for that bud.
It's a rational response to an unjust world, but more importantly I couldn't afford professional help in any case. Which is, again, the point.
Rational... yup. No you are just a sad little child that can't grow up
Why not be angry at other poor people too then? They deserve it as much as the middle class.
No, they don't.
They do though. Neither one of them deserves your anger. Be angry at the people who actually set up the system that makes you poor. Not the middle class who has as much to blame as the poor.
If you're spending upwards of $1000 on a few days you're probably rich.
Or it's very important to you and you saved all year. What a weird assumption
What the hell. That classifies almost anyone who goes on vacation as rich.
Like a 3rd of the world live in near starvation, objectively if you can afford a vacation you are in the richest 25% in the world.
Have you considered that the majority of people can't afford to go on vacations? Heck, in the US most people aren't even entitled to vacations by law. If they want to rest they have to stop working altogether and pray they are accepted back at their workplace when they return and to not have any emergency and their meager savings last for the entire short break from the grind.
Really, some people have no notion of privilege.
It means you’re not poor if you can afford to go on a vacation that costs a few thousand dollars. That’s middle class. People have normalized lowering the standard of living associates with middle class, but being able to spend a few thousand dollars on a vacation is where the middle class should be and used to be.
I'm sure some middle class people can afford to go to burning man. But you're being wilfully ignorant if you think burning man isn't catered to the rich. It's almost purely a status symbol event. It's definitely where people go to show off their lavish wealth and take pictures for Instagram. I'm pretty sure if they took a survey 80%+ would be wealthy people.
I'm middle class, and I'm spending a couple hundred dollars on my holiday this week, I almost can't fathom spending thousands living in a tent in a desert.
But you're right, the middle class has been eroded. What was considered middle class in 1970 would be rich today. That's just because most people are worse off financially.
Spoken like someone who has no fucking idea what they're talking about.
Okay, how about this. My anarchist punk middle aged friend who used to go to Burning Man every year stopped going because it was becoming a wealthy shit-show. Not even the orgy dome was enough of a draw to make it worth going.EDIT: I’m not hating on burners, just noting that he observed a change.
Ever heard of budgeting? Saving? Yeah, that's what people do when they want to take a vacation. Anybody with half a brain can do it. Just takes discipline. Something you clearly don't have.
If you can afford to set aside such a sum you are part of a group that, going by worldwide averages, is among the richest in the world.
or you could be dumb like me and go into debt to take a trip
Well, how do you define middle class? Is there a certain income bracket that needs to be met? Or is it the middle slice of 3 equally sliced segments of the US population?
The way I always thought about it is if you have to do work for a living you are not rich.
What about those of us who are one step below that?
I'm not salary yet but they're talking about promotion where I would be required as salary which means -less work but I get paid the same and if there is suddenly more work, no over time.
But it pays more over all. And would even put me in a different tax bracket. I'm not there yet. So am I like, teetering on the edge of rich?
What about the cost of living? My rent keeps going up. I can't be rich if my rent is taking most of my paycheck can I?
Your blatant classism and lack of normal empathy aside, can you provide evidence that most people at burning man are "rich"?
Because it's a festival in the middle of the desert that's celebrating being in the middle of the fucking desert.
In high school I remember some of us were actually very taken with the concept, including myself. But as time progressed, it became obvious that it wasn't about connecting with nature and self reliance.
Yeah if you can afford $400 tickets, camping supplies, and transportation you're absolutely a part of the 1% /s
All that you're doing here is contributing to infighting within your own class, which is what actual rich people want -- for you to focus your attention anywhere but on them. Hate the 1% if you want but more importantly demand they be treated like the rest of us.
Like let them live with constant financial stress?
No like paying taxes. Like going to jail when they break the law. Like levying income-based fines.
Like being gunned down if you're a person of color
what are you trying to do here? get to the point or go away
I got shit for this in another thread, but I will stand by it- you do not go into the desert without checking the weather report, and if it says rain, light rain, heavy rain, sprinkles, doesn't matter, you do not go into the desert. These people did not do the most basic bit of safety you could do.
Ok and people rebuild their homes in flood zones, it’s not the criticism that bothers me but when people take joy in it. The posts I’ve seen are just cheap.
Rebuilding a home in a flood zone is a little different. That's a permanent situation people decide not to change for infrequent floods. Some people might not have the means to uproot their lives to get out of a flood zone. This current situation is a temporary choice for fun. If you do something that involves being outside, understanding the weather is necessary.
By the same token, would you criticize the organizers for holding the festival in a place that can flood, even if in years past it didn't?
I agree, I don't take joy in it. I just don't have much sympathy for them.
If you thoroughly understand the situation and feel that way I respect it.
I've been out in the desert on more than one film/TV shoot in my life and we were always really diligent to make sure we were going out there when there was absolutely no risk of rain, because you could be in a wash or a dry lake bed and never even know it.
And I'm pretty sure Burning Man is in a dry lake bed.
It's such highly irresponsible behavior that, like I said, my sympathy is minimal. Also, pretty much everyone is fine. It's just very unpleasant for them. Someone did die, but they didn't say why they died. It could very easily have just been ODing considering it's Burning Man.
I'm just surprised at the sheer stupidity of those people. There have been pictures on the net, showing the festival area completely submerged just a few days before the start. Yet, they still moved there.
At that point, when they noticed that the mud was knee deep, they could have left. They decided to stay.
Now there is an emergency involving 70k idiots who put themselves wilfully in a dangerous place without thinking.
Bunch of people here are talking about who goes to burning man. So just to be a bit objective, here's a burning man census they've been doing for the past decade
https://blackrockcitycensus.org/
Census data does kinda prove the healthy wealth gap between attendees and the average American
So it seems like just since 2015 the amount of people making over $100,000 has literally doubled and people who are poorer having the sharpest decline in attendance. Just shy of half of attendees in 2021 where making over 6 figures and that has likely grown...
Yeah I don't care what happens to the rich people cause they will find their way out and have a ghost writer write a book for them about their experience that will be a top seller before they even release it. The world has become a playground for the rich.
That census just confirms the stereotype of the average burner being the most annoying person ever. Overwhelmingly non-religious but also overwhelmingly 'spiritual'.
The second largest political group behind democrats (~50%) are non-politicals (only double digit percentage), aka people who are disinterested in politics cause it doesn't affect them, so they don't care (let's be real cause they are overwhelmingly rich, college-educated, white, cis, and straight).
It's definitely the group easiest to judge negatively, and being stuck at burning man is likely the greatest challenge they've encountered in their life and the cherry on top is that they've paid thousands for it.
Yeah God forbid an atheist turns elsewhere for making sense of life. Anyone who does that is scum worthy of a gas chamber or something /s
TIL if you make enough to save a bit of money in a medium size city, you're rich scum, morally equivalent to people who make 1,000,000 your salary and give none of it to charity.
I didn't say that and if that was your internal monologue reading what I wrote you have your own internal issues to deal with
That's what $100K is. This thread is fucking trash.
Are you ok mate?
You’re not traveling in the wrong circles. Come to a VC fund dinner in September where junior VCs and 28-year-old “mortgage disrupter” CEOs brag about the air-conditioned plug-and-play camps they spent tens of thousands on, and play wink-wink with each other about all of the fun they had.
I’m a multiple-time BM vet, but it’s mostly an expensive, bureaucratized drug party for tourists now.
It’s perfectly fine to goof on it as it sinks into a physical and moral quagmire. Forgive a poorly scaled analogy, but your logic is the NRA’s logic when there’s a mass shooting: “Now, when everyone’s attention is focused, is not the time to highlight the underlying issues.”
No one hates the luxury plug-n-play campers more than other burners. And the org has even taken steps to crack down on them.
But the only thing older than non-burners hating on burners is burners saying “it was cooler back in the times when I went. It sucks now.”
What years were you there?
You’re not allowed to vend anything at Burning Man. No commercial transactions permitted.
However, there are “adventure travel” companies that will take thousands of dollars of your money, weeks before the event, and then take you there and keep you in luxury the whole time. There are people who set up tents and prepare food and do all the cleaning for you, etc.
This has never been a significant proportion of the people attending. Not even 1%. If nothing else, it’s just too expensive for most people. So if you hear people shitting on this practice, just know that it isn’t broadly representative, and every single other burner out there who is pulling their own weight also hates these camps.
They’re strictly against the values of the community. Self reliance and decommodification are declared expectations. And while there have always been moochers and lameasses to be found, having companies make a business out of this was beyond the pale. The org began taking steps to ensure that these operations don’t get tickets and don’t get into the gate.
Self reliance in the desert, by bringing in all you need for your totally natural camping experience.
Yes you bring what you need. How do you think camping is supposed to work?
This thread is wild. I suspect most of you who seem completely positive you're right to judge thousands of people and what they deserve would be very indignant and angry if someone lumped you in with a category of people you somehow are tangentially related to.
It's kind of depressing. I thought Lemmy wasn't a wasteland of humanity like reddit was, but if I was only going by this thread I'd have to conclude it definitely is not a damned bit better than reddit.
People are children and repeat what they hear. 15 years ago, I would spout the same nonsense about burning man because of what I read on digg/Reddit from the same voices you hear now. I then met a friend who convinced me to go and I had an absolute blast.
For the vast majority of people in the US, let alone the world, attending the event is almost impossible due to cost, time, materials, etc. - it’s much easier for people that live nearby and most people within driving distance, the views of burning man will be more in line with your views - nuanced and reasonable. If you have no experience and no contact with the regular folks who attend, it’s super easy to bucket people into all these groups.
The reasoning about waste and frivolity is total bullshit — don’t tel me your bullshit vacation to Murtle Beach is anymore eco friendly. Or your plane ride to Bangkok to become more worldly is “green”. Burning man is an event, a vacation. I went many times as a student, spending only about $2000 all in. It’s a relatively economical way to have a blast for a week.
Well that’s the thing though isn’t it? Nobody’s saying their Bangkok or Myrtle Beach vacay is eco anything, nor are they vaunting some ethos, sustainability, life altering experimental way to live, Drugs, costumes, art, sex, whatever…an unattainable experience for the vast majority people.
You might see a selfie in Myrtle beach with a drink or a pic in front of Wat Pho.
If you’re gonna engage in appeals to hypocrisy, maybe you should try to find actual hypocrisy.
See, though, this is the ignorance that stems from not knowing real life burners. The vast majority (actually none) that I know do not claim anything eco about the event. These people understand what the event is. Don’t lump every one of the 100s of thousands of those who have attended over the years with the handful of social media starlets posting bullshit online. I promise many many people at burning man hate those who post anything about the event on social media.
Huh, so you’re saying we should ignore the people who were there and said what happens in favor of your criticism of people going to Myrtle Beach?
It's basically this IMO
People are free to do what they want. It's this self assured BS they use to justify doing drugs in the desert that the majority of the criticism comes from.
Had a close friend who became a burner. She compared her fund raising for a party to my wife's political organizing. I can't even wrap my head around how self delusional it is.
Yes, idiots exist in all contexts. If you gather enough people in one spot, a nice, countable handful will be dumb.
Holy crap, I just checked the actual numbers and their mortality rate is lower than the average in the population, they're doing fine
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/products/databriefs/db456.htm#:~:text=Age%2Dspecific%20rates%20increased%2010.1,44%20(248.0%20to%20287.9).
So as long as Event Organisers stay below the average mortality rate, they hold no liability? They are doing fine?
OP: One person died! It's a tragedy!
Turns out that's a better mortality rate than outside the event, not much of a tragedy, more of them would have died if they hadn't went to the event!
Outside the event includes people in their 90s dying of old age in hospitals
Generally the demographic that attends burning man skews younger which is inherently less likely to die
It's a much higher mortality rate than the average event. More people died at this event then most events.
Strong MORALS?!?!?
These are extremely generic platitudes that could apply to just about anyone.
Which morals specifically?
What's your definition of "financially responsible"? Because that's frequently a watered down way of saying "well-off" while trying to attribute it their character and not their situation.
"Upstanding member of society" is outright meaningless without context. That's an argument you hear from the defense in criminal trial.
So why are we supposed to take these hypothetical friends as evidence of anything?
Not to mention… at least for me… I don’t really think of it as a drug ridden orgy… more of an instagram hotspot.
In any case… it’s not like they can’t get people out if they really need to. Or food and supplies in. Worst case? The event people helicopter water and food and they spend a few extra days getting tench foot.
And the loudest participants outside the burn are tech bros and influencers.
He says unironically.
This but all the people shitting on burning man
it's just an us based festival, why do you make it sound as if its a larger than life event.
Entirely ignoring who is at burning man or why, I honestly think there needs to be a line somewhere for sympathy. If you truck yourself out into the desert and things go tits up, well, shit happens. That's the risk you took.
I say this as a person who used to ride motorcycles, rock climb, and go backpacking. If shit ever went down I wouldn't have expected any sympathy. I put myself in those risky situations, and there's just plain gotta be a line for personal responsibility.
With all that being said, when such a massive group of people continuely take the same risk over and over, it's kinda funny when they finally get bit. It's the same reason COVID denires getting COVID is funny.
You’re right. Also burners want no sympathy. Self sufficiency is a core value and an expectation of all attendees. People fail at it and other burners hate them for it. No one there is asking for anyone’s sympathy.
I appreciate your honesty but this sort of boggles my mind…like well they were asking for it. Ok then.
When people have no power to improve their lives, and some of the people who do have that power suffer, a little schadenfreude is natural. Only the death gives me pause, personally.
Overly inflated ego and sense of self-importance narcissism dude. They have no sympathy for anybody but themselves.
It used to be about spirituality and the rest including hard drugs, alcohol, and social media bringing in that crowd has ruined it permanently.
A person died. This is a tragedy for an event that brings positivity into the world. Kind of annoyed.They could take all the money it costs them and bring a whole lot more positivity into the world but instead choose sex drugs and rock'n'roll in the middle of the desert. If you want to see tragedies these people could prevent just go spend some time in the poorest parts of the city you live in.
By your logic, if you're a good person but you spend your disposable income on a form of recreation that inefficiently brings positivity to the world, you deserve to be ridiculed and your suffering is justly celebrated.
So you truly believe that all the resources they're wasting vs the fun they have as a group is a net positive to the world? I hope this year's fuck up is enough to shut down the event for the foreseeable future and I won't shed a single tear or have any pity for any of them that gets hurt because of their ridiculous recreation.
Do you know how much money is wasted on the Super Bowl? If there was an earthquake at the Super Bowl and it killed someone would you be there saying "Shouldn't have wasted that money, serves you right!"
Is the Superbowl happening in the middle of the desert in already muddy conditions even though people were warned it's not a good idea to go? Sorry I don't follow football.
You better go find out so you know if they deserve to die or not.
My point is, it doesn't matter how much you know about a subject. It's somebody's life. Somebody lost a loved one that day, and it was a tragedy regardless of how much smarter you are than them.
Do you know how many people in the world die because of the North American lavish lifestyle? A whole fucking lot.
That's strangely irrelevant to the conversation, but thanks for the fun fact, I guess.
Would a resort in the Virgin Islands be more respectable? Sorry their vacation doesn't look like yours.
Just pointing out that saying they bring positivity in the world is a load of BS as the resource wasted alone means their overall impact is negative to the world.
Are you bringing enough positivity to the world to deserve to be mourned of you were to die in a tragic accident? I would like to know where the line is, whose deaths are worth enough and is it only determined by what they do for fun, or does bringing positivity add to your score?
We're talking about a specific event and it's impact, talking about it bringing positivity to the world wasn't my choice, I'm just pointing out that no it's not something positive if you think about more than just the event itself.
Reminds me of the hippy drum circle episode of south park where they all get stoned and listen to jam bands and declare they are changing the world.
Maybe also because there were protesters blockading the road towards it because of climate change and festival goers were furious about it, so this is kinda ironic
The only people who go to that dumb crap in the first place are wealthy whites, the poor and working class don't have all the money and time in the world to spend $1000's of dollars on hard drugs and time off work and traveling half way across the country to attend some "hippy" festival that hasn't actually had hippies at it since the 12th Century BC
That's why I'm happy when people aren't able to make it to Cons and Ren Fairs. Bunch of losers with more money than me spending on things I don't care about.
How dare they. I hope anyone who spends money to have fun has a bad time instead.
In defense of Ren fairs, the best part of them is the camping, and that's as cheap as you want it to be.
There are certainly weathly people who go, but there are also poor people who work multiple jobs and save up for a year to go as well.
More just schadenfreude, I expect, since Burning Man has long seemed dumb and idiotic to many. So something dumb and idiotic like this happening to them feels appropriate.
Yes… I guess I am used to finding places on the internet that value nuance. There is no nuance to that perception. I guess there isn’t much when it comes to burning man. Hippies are dumb, rich hippies are dumber, so bad things happening to them is hilarious.
I love poor hippies. I hate when rich people pretend to be something they’re not and expect us to play along.
I think it's like the difference between Van Lifers depicted in Close Zhao's Nomadland who work real jobs to get by, who got into it by necessity, and continue for the love of the freedom and community vs Instagram van lifers in 100K Vans, with nebulous but seemingly unlimited sources of money, whose only job seems to be influencer marketing, and selling a blatantly Disney version of Van Life to the masses.
And this dichotomy exists in so many atypical lifestyle categories. On sailing YouTube you have people go about in new and luxurious sail boats they bought outright which they learned to sail at sailing camp, vs some person in a smaller boat from the 60s, that they just figured it out how to sail, who does their own repairs the best they can and doesnt spend 2 grand a night for a marina spot and doesn't ship their boat across the atlantic and instead struggles across the passage on their own.
Maggie Mae Fish did a whole video on the same phenomenon amongst off grid influencers. One group flies in supplies by helicopter and the other built their own cabin and upgraded it with money they scrounged up from what's left over from their actual jobs.
I’ve never liked that at all.
I’m not exactly rich, but compared to some starving people in third-world countries yes I am.
I hate to think that because I have it worlds better than them by an accident of birth, I must be stupid and deserve every bad thing that happened to me. After all, I’m just an overprivileged first-worlder, therefore I purposely tried to step on everyone to get my way. Because you suffered in ways that I never have, I must suffer like that and you get to laugh at the “rich person” flailing and generally being miserable. I wasn’t born into poverty, therefore if I experience misfortune I clearly deserve it somehow. If I happen to catch cancer, well, everyone dies someday, should have gotten used to the concept of unexpectedly dying by disease like us real folk, cry harder you privileged bitch, nobody cares and nobody should. That’s just what you get for being out of touch with how real people live. Should have been prepared for that.
This is why I stick to /sub. To avoid this kind of post. And I somehow find these posts anyway (didn’t even seek out stuff outside of /sub, not sure how I landed here, going to find out how it happened so it won’t happen again) and get angry.
Lovely outrage bait. Never change, internet.
I don’t reality understand what you’re upset about but sorry my post hurt you
I think of two people in my past when I think of Burning Man.
One being my ex who got in trouble for punching his ex girlfriend AT burning man. He had to go to court and she got a restraining order against him. There were also witnesses and he almost got kicked out of school for it. He should have been kicked out of school in my opinion.
Anyway. Him and his friends were super trashy. All people who went to Burning Man.
Then there is this girl I use to work with. She was nice. She was extremely pretty. 10/10 instagram model type, not even exaggerated. She was also super late to everything. I waited two hours for her and her friend to meet up at a cafe. That was the last time we hung out. She really came off as someone who gets away with shit just because she's considered hot.
Because we live in a society devoid of empathy.
@[email protected] YMMV. 90% of the people I’ve met who have gone to BM are jerks 🤷♂️
Fuck your burn!
It’s not a tragedy, it’s life on the playa. Every participant knows this. The back of the ticket states that you could die out there. Part of it is survival. Radical self reliance.
These aren’t opinions, these are facts. Radical self reliance is one of the 10 principals of burning man.
Hating burners is a perpetual pastime. I’ve never understood it. If you don’t want to go, don’t go. Folks form their own weird ideas about what Burning Man “means” and then bat down that straw man with misperceptions about what actually happens there. If you’ve never been: just STFU.
As a many time attendee, I’m concerned for the safety of everyone out there.
However I am also hoping that this might help lead to smaller events in the future. When I began attending, it was 12-15k people. It grew over time until it was 50k people and that really felt too big. Crazy crowds. Unsafe density of people whizzing around by night. And a greater feeling of anonymity / being able to disappear into the crowd definitely led to more irresponsible and shifty behavior by some. Once upon a time it was considered really bad behavior to just stop and piss on the ground but as the festival grew things like that became commonplace and fighting back against them was futile.
Now the festival is 70k people and I’ve stayed away for years over that. It would be great to get it under 50k again. I keep hearing about things like a full day wait during exodus and thinking maybe this will finally cause fewer people to return but it keeps not working. This probably won’t help either.
Lemmy has inherited some of the best parts of reddit... and the worst.
This place turned more negative than reddit fast
I found it funny in so far as just the other day, some of those burning man goers were blocked on the road in by climate protestors. The fact it rained and they are stuck there again, due to the climate, is pretty god damn hilarious.
Remember Burning Man 2020-2022 when shit happened?
Remember Fyre festival?
How many times do people have to learn that going out into the middle of nowhere, shit is going to happen?
Because they love the smell of their own farts?
These people could have checked a weather forecast and had a lot of advance warning to GTFO. If you go out to the desert without doing anything to ensure your safety, it is mostly your fault if you get screwed. Same reason it's funny when antivaxxers get measles and when COVID deniers get COVID. Of course it is still sad and the people responsible for spreading those theories should be punished, but it is sort of funny.
I'm just appalled at these comments!
Why does it matter what the festival represents or not?
Why does it matter if you stamd for or against it?
There was a flood, people got hurt, someone even died.
And people are laughing at it?
And ridiculing it‽
Where is the respect?
Is anyone dead?
Edit:
https://apnews.com/article/burning-man-festival-flooding-entrance-closed-d6cd88ee009c6e1f6d2d92739ec1ca18
Yes
They are investigating a possible death. You're out here making it sound like people are suffering. By all accounts, spirits remain high.
https://apnews.com/article/burning-man-festival-flooding-entrance-closed-d6cd88ee009c6e1f6d2d92739ec1ca18
there is a regional burn they have every year in my state, i went for like 6 years straight in the 2010s .. my fav part was walking around nekkid lol. i also participated in the fire performance ceremony before the burn. but then they modified the rules to allow children to attend and i haven't gone since. :<
it only cost $30 and was a great fun and awesome time, as long as you took care of your MOOP!!!! (and stay hydrated!)
the big burning man festival from what i understand lost the true spirit a long ass time ago.
Theres a book/movie that explains this pretty well...It's called "How the Grinch Stole Christmas". Online most people are like the Grinch and they believe others are silly/stupid/wrong or immoral for doing fun things. Seeing them suffer instinctively sounds good.
They are likely to be super surprised when the burners return and talk about how it changed their life...After all the best burns are when shit goes sideways.
Because they’ve never been.
I love these posts. Yes everyone on the internet has a short, pithy take. Yes it looks cool to have no empathy.
Obviously everyone has their reasons, but why are we shocked that someone somewhere said something online that seems heartless or at odds with our version of the world?
And then when everyone explains that the event has a stereotype and there is a reason for that stereotype, and OP explains that, well, plenty of nice people participate in that activity, why would strangers on the internet shit on the nice ones too? And it's like, yeah, this is what the internet does. Things get 2-dimensional.
🙄
That’s about right and I think we should do better.
The internet could use more empathy, I suppose. Part of navigating it, unfortunately, it understanding that shortcoming.
Boomers and authoritarian fascists don't like to see people enjoying themselves, so watching people at a festival of joy, equality and happiness suffer is basically their favourite thing to do.
I don't think that's the flex you think it is.
It just rich boomers. I've never met anyone under 50 who talked about burning man.
You pretty much got it, there are marginalized parts of society you're allowed to berate, and people who want to feel better about themselves make fun of the groups they are allowed to when they are allowed to.
Are you claiming tech bros are a marginalized part of society?!
Are you claiming every attendee at burning Man is a tech bro and that people are specifically only making fun of tech bros?
No, I am trying to understand your statement of "marginalized parts of society".
Which word are you having trouble with?
Marginalized in the context of burning man.
You're asking "is the population of burning man marginalized in the context of burning Man".
No, once you are referring to the entirety of a defined population, that group is not a margin, but the entire population.
Ok I understand the context of your original message now. It was completely nonsensical.
Oh yeah. The poor, marginalized Burner community…🙄
Ffs.
Nobody said they were poor. Marginalized? You're proving it with your comment.
Appreciated.
I meant poor as in pitiable, not as in impoverished. Don’t purposely misread my statements.
Nobody said they were impoverished.
By casting burners as pitiable, you're marginalizing them. How pitiable.
I can’t debate a point with someone who either doesn’t know how words work or is deliberately arguing in bad faith. Have a good day.
You clearly can't debate a point, period. Scamper away.
Yeah I guess hipsters are still fine to laugh at, even when they drown, because driving to the desert to blow of some steam is frivolous. I’m disappointed.
Who drowned?
Rich fuck yuppies deserve every iota of suffering that can be visited upon them, up to and surpassing death.
Wow.
100%
I was gunna customize one special for you. But just like your life, it's not worth the effort.
"miserable and disgusting creatures who hate their lives" describes the majority of the Human Race.
🤣 have a little bit of hope though lol
I guess maybe I thought we were past this…or at least most social media has enough sensible people that things like this are properly shouted down…
We may be. Sadly, those sensible people are not on social media.
Try asking any question on !vegan or similarly culty forum. 🤷🏼♂️ This species will always behave like crabs in a fuckin' bucket. Right up to the very end we all had a hand in.
That’s a good connection. Vegans are also popularly perceived as being condescending douchebags but I think most of them are probably humble, chill people who are doing their thing. I don’t have any evidence of this. People laugh like idiots when studies come out that vegan diets are bad for babies or proven to cause ______ deficiency…ok. I know a Native American guy who owns a bbq place and sells tshirts with a cartoon of Indians sitting around a campfire saying “vegan is ____ tribe’s word for village idiot.” Seems like cheap larry the cable guy laughs and anyone who uses this as an excuse to laugh at suffering is a piece of shit…but you do you, folks.
To put a finer point on it: Larry the Cable Guy is an act that the vast majority of his audience don't/won't realize that the joke is, in fact, them. 🤦🏼♂️
And I see your true colors Shining through. - Anna Kendrick and Justin Timberlake
Much older: Cyndi Lauper, 1986, songwriters Billy Steinberg and Tom Kelly.
I was misled by a remake.
I know, and i hope it isn't seen as rude when i make such corrections "at everyone's service".
Accuracy is never rude despite fools taking umbrage. You're cool dude.
Can you really blame them? I can't.
The fact is that we are living in societies with an increasing wealth gap between the richest and the poorest people. While the rich can afford basically anything, including to fuck around in death trap submarines at the bottom of the sea or peyote orgies in the desert, the average people are finding it hard to afford a house, a family, pets, a car, groceries and basic needs, etc. Everything is a rental, the average person owns very little, some people own nothing at all, and that creates a society where people feel they have been abandoned and have no stake in anything. Meanwhile governments and corporations that influence them are leading us towards a future odd climate catastrophe, AI generated bullshit, and economic collapse.
So is it any surprise the poor majority resents the rich minority? The worse the wealth gap gets, the stronger the resentment grows. And it has been that way throughout human history, leading to example after example of social unrest and violent revolution. A stable and healthy society demands an economy with a strong middle class that can afford the things they need and some of the things they want.
Finally. Someone cleverer than me found a good way to put it. Burning Man fiddles while it’s everything else, ironically, that burns.
Yup, the internet is very much a place to commiserate and where being negative towards anything not in the hivemind is 1000% A-OK. Like ffs, you even see it in this thread - some other poster literally said that rich people deserve more than just death.
I’m angry at how fucked up the system is in the US and how politicians basically became the interference between the ruling class and the working class, but when I see people cheering for the death of rich people like with this and that sub that was going to the Titanic recently, that’s not ok. It’s just as bad, if not worse, than either talking about the underlying issues or doing something about them because they allowed themselves to be ok with the death of another human being that doesn’t contribute to either side of the real issue of corporate entities controlling the US - and since that satiated them, then they don’t feel the need to actually go about change.
Yup. Those kind of people are the scum of the earth