Just as a friendly reminder. Here in Germany, BMW would have to provide access to the required tools. After all, we have a right to repair over here in Europe.
And if you are american: fucking fix your government
And if you are american: fucking fix your government
I try everyday and I will not give up until it's fixed.
Your government could end up more like mine if the AfD takes power so I urge you and all Germans to fight that with everything you got. It's terrifying here and I really don't want other people to have to go through what we're going through so please take action now.
One threat that I believe people in Europe are not taking seriously enough is foreign interference in your elections from our Oligarchs like Elon Musk and our government. Trump's so-called National Security Strategy explicitly calls for interfering in EU countries and the Heritage Foundation (the organization who planned much of Trump's second term) has explicitly called for eliminating the EU.
Please consider these actions to immunize yourself and your country from us:
Stop using Twitter, Meta products, TikTok and Reddit. These companies all have owners who are sympathetic to the Trump regime or in the case of Twitter it's way worse. I'm personally a big advocate for Bluesky for replacing Twitter and of course goes without saying I really hope Lemmy can fully replace Reddit.
Educate people on how to recognize disinformation and propaganda. This should be taught in school along with classes to mitigate the harmful effects caused by social media. Classes should hopefully cultivate skills like emotional regulation, critical thinking and conflict resolution because cognitive warfare is more successful against people who are weak in these skills.
Try resolving people's frustrations and social differences without them turning towards the far-right. This is part of how Trump got into power some people feel unhappy and vulnerable so the far-right takes advantage of them. I don't understand this well but I've read that part of the AfD's popularity has to do with unresolved differences between East and West Germany. If I'm wrong here or misunderstanding I apologize.
If applicable campaign finance reform especially to restrict foreign money. I suspect Germany is way better than America here but if this is a risk please fix as soon as possible.
Consider simulating what would happen if the AfD were to take power almost like the way a pentester tests software. Figure out what vulnerabilities in your government the AfD could exploit and solve them before they take power. This is really important because for Trump you can think of him almost like a hacker except he's not breaking into computer systems, he's exploiting vulnerabilities in both humans and our government doing things like declaring fake emergencies.
Obviously this is by no means a complete list. I'm sure there's a lot to do.
Also, kill some fucking Nazis. They go outside just like everybody else, and I don't think the us or Russian militaries will be helping you clean up if you fuck up again.
And if you are american: fucking fix your government
I live in a red state where our last two Attorney Generals used the position as a ladder to go to the senate. The first one on the whole Jan 6 attack ran like a coward after fist pumping to the crowd of rioters. The state loved it so much they elected his clone.
Some states are just choke holded by a cult. This isn't a top down thing, no matter how much the President thinks he is. No, down to the grass roots we are fucked to a level that I don't see how we come back from.
The worst part, the state I'm in now is an improvement from the last one I escaped.
Someone will just make the required tools. You can buy the keys for TSA locks on Amazon. I think we're past fixing this country. Once the American empire falls, hopefully we'll fall in line with the rest of the world. Though I'd like for someone to fix this country.
Pardon the circlejerk interruption, and believe me I hate BMW just as much as the next person, but this is just a patent application. Like, if you realize your logo has the potential to be a screw head, why would you not patent it to prevent others from using the design.
It’s not made it into any cars, and so far as I’ve seen there are no plans. Even if it does I’d think it’d only be used in some customer-facing application; interior maybe, or decorative attachments in the engine like valve covers etc. Slightly asshole that you’d need a different tool, but not exactly the end of the world unless they actively prevented the tool from being made.
Used to be called patent trolling, but now that all the big corporations that own the politicians deciding patent law are doing it, it's considered "prudent business practice"
IBM alone files more patents that they'll never use (except for lawsuits in case someone else does something useful with something similar) in a year than most companies file IN TOTAL for several decades.
How? In this specific case it's about brand identity, so I don't think anyone else would make BMW-shaped screws. But in general, how is "I had this idea, I don't want to make it, but want to stop others from making it" good?
how is "I had this idea, I don't want to make it, but want to stop others from making it" good?
It isn't under ANY circumstances and to think so without being the patent trolling asshole yourself is some Stockholm syndrome level simping for the overlords.
Yeah the patent doesn't mention anything about it being a security screw as far as I can tell, it just looks like they patented a dumbass design that's only useful for the aesthetics and people are making some sensational headlines. Like, yeah, we'd just get or make the bits to undo them - they also know that?
Honestly, it doesn't look like a dumbass screw to me. Phillips heads are dumbass screws. It is a shit design. This actually looks quite solid as a screw head.
... What are you talking about? The design ensures you can't be anything but perpendicular to it in order to have any positive engagement, and Phillips screws are so notoriously bad about camming out at even ideal angles that it's been popularly believed that was an intentional design feature (it wasn't phillips screws just suck) for almost as long as they've existed.
They will have the patent on the corresponding driver for the screw, and i doubt they will allow third party shops to purchase the drivers for anything resembling a reasonable price. Meaning that you will be forced to take the car to a BMW authorized mechanic. It's taking away the consumer's right to repair.
Did you see the Rossman video about this? The patent explicitly calls out that the reason for this design is to prevent people from using it without the proper "authorization" or told or whatever. It is not about branding or better functionality or anything else
So it's just another pattern of tamper resistant screw, this time with tacky branding. Those have been used for decades on cars, idk this feels very blown out of proportion. People are acting like it's evil when it's just a normal thing but cosmetically way uglier.
Nerd talk: (putting aside the ethics of the article), would that be a good or bad screw design compared to screws we currently have available?
Manufacturing the screwdriver/bit would be super easy, one pass with a flat bottom cutter to remove each quarter from the end.
The two remaining quarters of the bit being separated could maybe be more of a problem than if they were joined together.
You would get the same contact area as a flathead screw, but with only half the material behind it. But the bit would set so much better than a flathead and would not slide around.
I'm curious how something like this would compare to a hex or star screw. I would imagine a little bit worse, but the potentially easier manufacturing might make up for it.
The surface that takes the pressure would be very similar to a flat screwdriver. Looks like it has no taper, so it would be harder to put in place but harder for it to skip when applying torque. It's not a good design, but not horrible.
Just as a side note: According to the patent application, BMW plans to use this special screw for parts of the vehicle that are not for regular service, e.g. airbags and seat mountings.
Examples include seat attachment points and joints between the cockpit and the load-bearing structure of the body.
These are IMO not the kind of screws you need to use to carry out regular maintainance or repair tasks.
I can see closing up non-serviceable components like an airbag module or ECU, like in place of rivets or potting, as it can make forensics easier in a failure. But, people swap out car seats all the time, and even sometimes the steering wheel too.
Also, for the first 5 or 10 years. No. You may not normally need to touch those parts, but as the car ages and wears, those parts may need to get swapped or removed to get at the failing part. (Similar to how you need to pull the entire engine just to change the water pump on some Toyotas)
Just because the parts aren't on the roster of regular maintenance, doesn't mean that an experienced DIYer wouldn't want to swap the part themselves for whatever reason somewhere down the road.
Sure, and any experienced DIYer is gonna be able to get the right $5 bit from any of the random bootleg company that makes them. This isn't a true security bit (it doesn't require destructive methods to open once installed) its at best just tamper resistant, which is fine and completely normal to use on critical parts (my Subaru needs security torx to access the airbags, for example)
This is frustrating but anyone dumb enough to let this be a major hinderance to them working on their own cars deserves to get scammed by the dealership. $30 on a knock off set of these screw heads vs thousands of dollars at the dealership. The main problem with BMW cars is that they're designed to be difficult to work on even in spite of stuff like this. You have to take the whole car apart to do basic maintenance.
Sweet. I just invented a screwdriver that fits that design! I’ll make sure I farm out the product creation to china so I can sell these for cheap on anmazin and make sure there’s a need for multiples due to the shitty quality of the material. I’m thinking built in faults in the handle that slowly snaps if you tap the end or drop the product.
I’ll make millions!!!!!
/s seriously, how does this help humanity? What the fuck does this do other than make sure I can’t choose where or how I repair my car?
There's the illusion that capitalism breeds innovation but ultimately it's just that the only gatekeeper to innovation in a Capitalist society is money while in all the attempted socialist societies, workers can be locked out of attempting innovation by party committees.
They do free software now? I thought their software was proprietary. Bad sign for right to repair hardware if not even having right to repair software. And their software facilitates many other proprietary softwares, is my understanding.
I asked an LLM which computer companies do... and it gave some dodgy answers (admittedly caveated). For example, I know Lenovo are increasingly locking up their thinkpads, preventing right to repair. So take this list with a pinch of scrutiny:
Here are some companies that sell computers with Linux pre-installed and actively support the right to repair:
LaptopWithLinux
Offers laptops with Linux pre-installed and emphasizes the Right to Repair, making replacement parts available for up to five years after release. Customers can also purchase their own RAM and SSD for easy assembly and customization. The warranty remains valid even if you open the laptop yourself laptopwithlinux.com.
System76
Known for its Linux-focused laptops and desktops, System76 designs its hardware to be easily repairable and upgradeable. They provide lifetime support and free shipping for repairs during the warranty period techradar.com.
TUXEDO Computers
Manufactures Linux laptops and desktops in Germany, offering a 5-year guarantee and lifetime support. Their hardware is designed for easy maintenance and upgrades itsfoss.com.
Framework
While not exclusively Linux-focused, Framework is renowned for its modular, user-repairable laptops. They offer Linux compatibility and support, and their design philosophy aligns strongly with the right to repair movement reddit.com.
ThinkPenguin
Specializes in computers pre-installed with fully free GNU/Linux distributions and is committed to software freedom and user control. Their products are designed to be repairable and upgradeable linuxpreloaded.com+1.
Dell and Lenovo
Both companies occasionally sell laptops and workstations with Ubuntu pre-installed, though their commitment to right to repair varies by model. Some lines, like Dell’s XPS Developer Edition, are popular among Linux users linuxpreloaded.com+1.
Juno Computers
Offers a simple lineup of computers shipped with Ubuntu, with branches in the US and UK linuxpreloaded.com.
Purism (Librem)
Focuses on privacy and freedom, offering laptops with Linux pre-installed and a strong emphasis on user control and repairability cyberciti.biz.
Slimbook
A Spanish vendor shipping notebooks with pre-installed Linux, known for supporting user freedom and repairability cyberciti.biz.
These companies are recognized for their commitment to both Linux and the right to repair, making them strong choices for users who value openness, customization, and sustainability. Would you like more details on any specific brand or model?
Reminds of when I compared Microsoft's various licenses and end user agreements to the GNU GPL version 1, when I was switching to GNU+Linux and Free Software over 20 years ago.
A search for the word "change" in the Steam subscriber agreement reveals "deal with the devil" clauses, where they can change the agreement after you agree.
Meh. Every car manufacturer has brand specific tools. A Ford mechanic has tools that a Toyota mechanic doesn't, and vice versa. This won't require some special $200 tool, it'll take a socket or screwdriver bit.
Two days until the screwdriver for this appears on AliExpress if they start using it...
I have a set of spanner drive screwdrivers, I'd walk right over this design
My spanner broke ):
Just as a friendly reminder. Here in Germany, BMW would have to provide access to the required tools. After all, we have a right to repair over here in Europe.
And if you are american: fucking fix your government
I try everyday and I will not give up until it's fixed.
Your government could end up more like mine if the AfD takes power so I urge you and all Germans to fight that with everything you got. It's terrifying here and I really don't want other people to have to go through what we're going through so please take action now.
One threat that I believe people in Europe are not taking seriously enough is foreign interference in your elections from our Oligarchs like Elon Musk and our government. Trump's so-called National Security Strategy explicitly calls for interfering in EU countries and the Heritage Foundation (the organization who planned much of Trump's second term) has explicitly called for eliminating the EU.
Please consider these actions to immunize yourself and your country from us:
Stop using Twitter, Meta products, TikTok and Reddit. These companies all have owners who are sympathetic to the Trump regime or in the case of Twitter it's way worse. I'm personally a big advocate for Bluesky for replacing Twitter and of course goes without saying I really hope Lemmy can fully replace Reddit.
Educate people on how to recognize disinformation and propaganda. This should be taught in school along with classes to mitigate the harmful effects caused by social media. Classes should hopefully cultivate skills like emotional regulation, critical thinking and conflict resolution because cognitive warfare is more successful against people who are weak in these skills.
Try resolving people's frustrations and social differences without them turning towards the far-right. This is part of how Trump got into power some people feel unhappy and vulnerable so the far-right takes advantage of them. I don't understand this well but I've read that part of the AfD's popularity has to do with unresolved differences between East and West Germany. If I'm wrong here or misunderstanding I apologize.
If applicable campaign finance reform especially to restrict foreign money. I suspect Germany is way better than America here but if this is a risk please fix as soon as possible.
Consider simulating what would happen if the AfD were to take power almost like the way a pentester tests software. Figure out what vulnerabilities in your government the AfD could exploit and solve them before they take power. This is really important because for Trump you can think of him almost like a hacker except he's not breaking into computer systems, he's exploiting vulnerabilities in both humans and our government doing things like declaring fake emergencies.
Obviously this is by no means a complete list. I'm sure there's a lot to do.
Amen sister or brother. Amen
Also, kill some fucking Nazis. They go outside just like everybody else, and I don't think the us or Russian militaries will be helping you clean up if you fuck up again.
P.R.Ü.F.
I live in a red state where our last two Attorney Generals used the position as a ladder to go to the senate. The first one on the whole Jan 6 attack ran like a coward after fist pumping to the crowd of rioters. The state loved it so much they elected his clone.
Some states are just choke holded by a cult. This isn't a top down thing, no matter how much the President thinks he is. No, down to the grass roots we are fucked to a level that I don't see how we come back from.
The worst part, the state I'm in now is an improvement from the last one I escaped.
choke the cult that is choke holding?
we just take the piss and moan approach then vote back in the assholes.
How's that working out for you?
It is confirming the long-held belief that there are two Americas.
about as well as expected
Someone will just make the required tools. You can buy the keys for TSA locks on Amazon. I think we're past fixing this country. Once the American empire falls, hopefully we'll fall in line with the rest of the world. Though I'd like for someone to fix this country.
Slotted spanner would handle this, I've got several sizes in my toolbox right now.
Ftfy
Pardon the circlejerk interruption, and believe me I hate BMW just as much as the next person, but this is just a patent application. Like, if you realize your logo has the potential to be a screw head, why would you not patent it to prevent others from using the design.
It’s not made it into any cars, and so far as I’ve seen there are no plans. Even if it does I’d think it’d only be used in some customer-facing application; interior maybe, or decorative attachments in the engine like valve covers etc. Slightly asshole that you’d need a different tool, but not exactly the end of the world unless they actively prevented the tool from being made.
My two cents
That’s a fair point.
Patenting things you don't have intention of actually doing, "just in case", is just shit tbh.
Used to be called patent trolling, but now that all the big corporations that own the politicians deciding patent law are doing it, it's considered "prudent business practice"
IBM alone files more patents that they'll never use (except for lawsuits in case someone else does something useful with something similar) in a year than most companies file IN TOTAL for several decades.
That is such fucking bullshit.
Please elaborate.
Bad phrasing, that they do that is such fucking bullshit, that’s fucked. Fuck IBM is what I was saying.
It can prevent others from doing it, which can be a net good.
How? In this specific case it's about brand identity, so I don't think anyone else would make BMW-shaped screws. But in general, how is "I had this idea, I don't want to make it, but want to stop others from making it" good?
It isn't under ANY circumstances and to think so without being the patent trolling asshole yourself is some Stockholm syndrome level simping for the overlords.
Design patents only last 15 years max. Unless they intend to use it, its just purely a publicity stunt.
It's likely that they filled this as a utility patent which would last 20 years.
No, there is no way for that to be a net good. That is brainwashed propaganda shit.
Yeah the patent doesn't mention anything about it being a security screw as far as I can tell, it just looks like they patented a dumbass design that's only useful for the aesthetics and people are making some sensational headlines. Like, yeah, we'd just get or make the bits to undo them - they also know that?
Honestly, it doesn't look like a dumbass screw to me. Phillips heads are dumbass screws. It is a shit design. This actually looks quite solid as a screw head.
It will cam out and chowder if you're not 100% perpendicular to it, I would say it's actually worse than a phillips screw
... What are you talking about? The design ensures you can't be anything but perpendicular to it in order to have any positive engagement, and Phillips screws are so notoriously bad about camming out at even ideal angles that it's been popularly believed that was an intentional design feature (it wasn't phillips screws just suck) for almost as long as they've existed.
Seriously. Why the hell aren't star heads the standard by now? Is it spite? It feels like spite.
They will have the patent on the corresponding driver for the screw, and i doubt they will allow third party shops to purchase the drivers for anything resembling a reasonable price. Meaning that you will be forced to take the car to a BMW authorized mechanic. It's taking away the consumer's right to repair.
It’s all conjecture at this point. The patent alone on the screw head I understand, because companies are obligated to protect their logo.
You dont need a patent to protect a trademark.
fortunately i shop internationally and from vendors located outside their patent coverage.
Did you see the Rossman video about this? The patent explicitly calls out that the reason for this design is to prevent people from using it without the proper "authorization" or told or whatever. It is not about branding or better functionality or anything else
Idk what a rossman video is, but bmw, being a german company, is beholden to Right to Repair. They need to make the tool available
Here you go
https://youtu.be/oM0W1li-a7g
That's fair, an on brand for BMW.
So it's just another pattern of tamper resistant screw, this time with tacky branding. Those have been used for decades on cars, idk this feels very blown out of proportion. People are acting like it's evil when it's just a normal thing but cosmetically way uglier.
Not to mention the odds of it having a better torque rating then any standard screw is low.
You would need a dedicated factory to build these at great expense for fancy looking screw heads.
the alleged application was critical fasteners that people shouldn't be working with, like frame connections
of course, this is bullshit, because it's been fine for the past half century, so why wouldn't it be now?
We've used tamper resistant screws as critical fasteners for that entire half a century, this is just a new and uglier version.
Naivete manifested in comment form.
You know, I think one can drill out a bit in the centre and it'll work with a flathead.
Not that I'd buy a bmw, or a car for that matter.
You‘re onto something there. Another approach would be to use a Dremel tool to grind a narrow slot.
Yeah that usually works, just depends on where it is and if it's flush.
I would guess that voids the warranty. After five years I guess they have planned obsolescence and brick the car
Oh, but you could buy a subscription for the "car keeps working" feature
Capitalism breeds the kind of innovation that benefits capital. And that’s it
Capitalism breeds innovation to make more and more profit sometimes that accidentally benefits people but rarely.
Nerd talk: (putting aside the ethics of the article), would that be a good or bad screw design compared to screws we currently have available?
Manufacturing the screwdriver/bit would be super easy, one pass with a flat bottom cutter to remove each quarter from the end.
The two remaining quarters of the bit being separated could maybe be more of a problem than if they were joined together.
You would get the same contact area as a flathead screw, but with only half the material behind it. But the bit would set so much better than a flathead and would not slide around.
I'm curious how something like this would compare to a hex or star screw. I would imagine a little bit worse, but the potentially easier manufacturing might make up for it.
The surface that takes the pressure would be very similar to a flat screwdriver. Looks like it has no taper, so it would be harder to put in place but harder for it to skip when applying torque. It's not a good design, but not horrible.
Flathead is superior save for torx in small head situations.
Flathead?? The one design that doesn't self-center? No thanks, I like my surfaces without extra scratches.
only benefits of flathead screws are:
ezpz to make if you have to make a custom screw
when you strip a (better headed) screw, you can just cut a single channel and you’re ready to try again
i guess maybe they’re cheaper? idk i really think it’s just the two things
A lot of screw driver heads started like this.
https://xkcd.com/927/
It’ll take about 30 seconds for the aftermarket to have a screwdriver that will fit it.
And it'll just be different size spanner-type heads, more durable ones likely using the bi-metal ones (like in the second pic)
see that's kind of what i was thinking. choose a sacrificial flathead and grind out the center
Just as a side note: According to the patent application, BMW plans to use this special screw for parts of the vehicle that are not for regular service, e.g. airbags and seat mountings.
These are IMO not the kind of screws you need to use to carry out regular maintainance or repair tasks.
I can see closing up non-serviceable components like an airbag module or ECU, like in place of rivets or potting, as it can make forensics easier in a failure. But, people swap out car seats all the time, and even sometimes the steering wheel too.
Also, for the first 5 or 10 years. No. You may not normally need to touch those parts, but as the car ages and wears, those parts may need to get swapped or removed to get at the failing part. (Similar to how you need to pull the entire engine just to change the water pump on some Toyotas)
Just because the parts aren't on the roster of regular maintenance, doesn't mean that an experienced DIYer wouldn't want to swap the part themselves for whatever reason somewhere down the road.
Sure, and any experienced DIYer is gonna be able to get the right $5 bit from any of the random bootleg company that makes them. This isn't a true security bit (it doesn't require destructive methods to open once installed) its at best just tamper resistant, which is fine and completely normal to use on critical parts (my Subaru needs security torx to access the airbags, for example)
This is frustrating but anyone dumb enough to let this be a major hinderance to them working on their own cars deserves to get scammed by the dealership. $30 on a knock off set of these screw heads vs thousands of dollars at the dealership. The main problem with BMW cars is that they're designed to be difficult to work on even in spite of stuff like this. You have to take the whole car apart to do basic maintenance.
Nono, thats corporatism. Capitalism free market is perfect and this would never happen.
Sweet. I just invented a screwdriver that fits that design! I’ll make sure I farm out the product creation to china so I can sell these for cheap on anmazin and make sure there’s a need for multiples due to the shitty quality of the material. I’m thinking built in faults in the handle that slowly snaps if you tap the end or drop the product.
I’ll make millions!!!!!
/s seriously, how does this help humanity? What the fuck does this do other than make sure I can’t choose where or how I repair my car?
Oooh wow sure would be a shame if someone replaced all those proprietary screws with torx or something 😏
People who buy BMW’s aren’t doing their own repairs most of the time anyway because they suck at it.
There's the illusion that capitalism breeds innovation but ultimately it's just that the only gatekeeper to innovation in a Capitalist society is money while in all the attempted socialist societies, workers can be locked out of attempting innovation by party committees.
One reason Anarchy is superior.
I don't know anyone who owns a BMW who would even consider working on their own car
That looks like a striped screw nightmare waiting to happen
it is innovation. corporations find innovative way to screw the customer and possibly extract rent from them
Free markets breed innovation, not capitalism. Different things.
laziness and necessity breed innovation, not market structures
Those also do, but in the context of market structures - which is what was being referred to in the post - my previous comment stands.
Is this not just a slotted one-way with a BMW logo?
Which companies avowedly still support right to repair?
I only want to buy from those.
I think steam does 🤔
They do free software now? I thought their software was proprietary. Bad sign for right to repair hardware if not even having right to repair software. And their software facilitates many other proprietary softwares, is my understanding.
I asked an LLM which computer companies do... and it gave some dodgy answers (admittedly caveated). For example, I know Lenovo are increasingly locking up their thinkpads, preventing right to repair. So take this list with a pinch of scrutiny:
I was thinking about the steam deck which runs linux out of box, is designed repairable and even replacement parts are available.
Ahh, and Lenovo has option to ship with fedora, not ubuntu, last I checked.
Oh. Well, that's better than I presumed.
Steam itself's still proprietary though, right?
... Oh, yeah, and then some. Way short of the 4 freedoms of Free Software's philosophy. Steam's https://partner.steamgames.com/steamdirect & https://store.steampowered.com/subscriber_agreement/ makes quite a contrasting read to Free Software licenses (e.g. WTFPL or GNU GPL 2).
Reminds of when I compared Microsoft's various licenses and end user agreements to the GNU GPL version 1, when I was switching to GNU+Linux and Free Software over 20 years ago.
A search for the word "change" in the Steam subscriber agreement reveals "deal with the devil" clauses, where they can change the agreement after you agree.
Meh. Every car manufacturer has brand specific tools. A Ford mechanic has tools that a Toyota mechanic doesn't, and vice versa. This won't require some special $200 tool, it'll take a socket or screwdriver bit.