It's so funny that the libs are downvoting this. So much for the 'you have to look past her flaws for now, she's our only chance against Trump' rhetoric.
The campaign is over. She lost. What's the excuse for still supporting her now?
Blue MAGA are doing their best to live up to the epithet. It was never about ideology or morality. Kamala is OUR TEAM and OUR TEAM GOOD.
The point isn't to defend her now, it's to point out that it would have been much better if she won over trump. It's to point out that If you didn't vote for her, you are at fault for Trump's win. It's to point out that unless enough people figure out that concept real soon, we will lose the ability to gain some control in the midterms and we will probably lose our democracy for the foreseeable future.
The KHIVE is here to correct the record on her prison slave labor scandals, defense of white supremacist cops, disproportionate jailing of black people, and staunch support for Israel.
The Trump term has literally seen a truce to the genocide in Palestine. This isn't an endorsement of Trump, he's a fascist piece of shit, but to those constantly bickering about genocide being worse under Trump, where are you now?!
There is no war, there is an ongoing genocide of Palestinians by the settler colony of Israel.
And yes, the genocide very much didn't end unfortunately, and it won't end until Isntreal is driven out of the region. But it has been ameliorated. By all accounts, dem supporters constantly were ranting about how "not voting for Kamala worsens the genocide", and this is, factually, not what we're seeing.
Trump has purposefully made the genocide in Ukraine far worse
There isn't genocide in Ukraine, there is an inter-imperialist war going on in Ukraine. Using the label "genocide" to every conflict is very harmful to people like Palestinians who are actively being starved en-masse and kept out of reach of basic medicine, healthcare and even fucking drinking water.
Some of the countries that have officially labeled Russia's brutal invasion as a genocide include [list of geopolitical enemies of Russia]
France can't even fucking recognize the state of Palestine until like a week ago, and now they're authorities in genocide? Fuck them.
As for your points list:
#1 goes mostly from claims by the Ukrainian government. It is true that Russia has extracted children from the warzone and it is true that in some cases these children have been sent to adoptive families in Russia, which I heavily condemn, but it's not a generalized thing and most confirmed extracted children have been returned eventually. The official numbers by the Ukrainian government aren't confirmed by any investigative journalism and the invaded Ukrainian state has obvious motivations to claim abduction of Ukrainian children and violations of human rights. The Russian government makes similar claims of forced de-Russification of ethnic Russians in Donbas to justify its invasion of Ukraine, which I hope you don't take seriously because it's obviously state propaganda.
#2 A statement doesn't make a genocide.
#3 Civilian deaths in the Ukrainian war, by any metric you want to use, are contained compared to any imperialist war carried out by the west. Civilian death ratio in the unlawful and horrifying invasion of Iraq was comparably much higher and it wasn't a genocide in my opinion (probably not in yours either). However horrifying the invasion of Ukraine is, it responds to patterns of war between nations, not of genocide attempts against a population.
#4 Isolated instances of war crimes don't imply a generalized intent to massacre civilians of a given ethnicity. War crimes are horrible and the perpetrators should be brought to justice, but again, the scale you bring of "hundreds" doesn't respond to genocidal goals. Massacres of civilians take place in many wars (see Vietnam, Libya...) and are war crimes, but not every war crime is genocide.
Please, do not dillute the meaning of the word "genocide". It's meant to carry an extremely heavy connotation of attempt of total extermination of an ethnicity and culture, and throwing it around lightly is an injury to people suffering from it.
When Russia started relocating Ukrainian children into Russian families, that made it a coordinated effort to eliminate a people, which makes it a genocide.
After 2 years of insisting, Ukraine provided list of 339 names of missing children of which 161 were found living with parents in Germany. The entire "kidnapped children" take is pure atrocity propaganda.
On the other side, in 2014-2022 Ukraine killed 15000 people in Donbas and forced millions more to migrate. THIS is considtent with UN definition of genocide.
Most of the claims of relocation of Ukrainian children to Russian families come from the government of Ukraine, not from independent investigative journalism. The Ukrainian government has obvious reasons to do this atrocity propaganda. The Russian government itself justified the start of the war on similar grounds, arguing that Russian ethnics in eastern Ukraine were being genocided by Ukraine through forced Ukrainization and the banning of Russian language. I don't take the Russian government seriously when it makes such claims because I haven't seen much independent journalism confirming it, I apply the same reasoning to the claim of Ukrainian children being kidnapped en-masse and forcibly Russified.
As far as I know, there are only a handful of independently confirmed cases of Ukrainian children being sent to adoptive families in Russia, and most children evacuated by the Russian military have been returned to their families in Ukraine. There aren't many cases of either because, as you may expect, in an attrition war in which the movements of the frontline are slow, there are very few children near the frontlines.
If there's one lesson to be learned this year, it's that politicians who compromise with fascists are still miles better than just uncompromised fascism.
Exactly. They fund genocide because it's politically expedient. The opposition funds genocide because they love killing brown people
It's conceivable to convince one side that genocide is no longer politically favorable. You're never going to convince the other side to stop wanting to kill brown people. There is no third option with prospects to win.
This feels like trying to explain to someone that you can have 2 different infinities, and one is larger than the other. Both are bad, but one is clearly worse.
"What's the difference if you end up at the same place?"
The difference is that 2 genocides is not the same place as 1 genocide. It is reasonable to criticize the people supporting a genocide while at the same time recognizing that the people wanting more genocides are not the same.
I don't live in the US, there are no consequences for me as a result of Trump being president. Significantly more people are being harmed under Trump and I actually give a shit about other people instead of putting some idealized moral high ground above actual human lives.
People were being harmed under Biden, our foreign and domestic policy has consequences for the vast majority of the world, you're either a moron or lying
Hell yeah brother. Personally I think Hitler was fucking great and would vote for him in a heartbeat if it meant stopping Himmler from being in charge. /s
I'd say that's a ridiculous choice and it's time to organize with the masses against the system that presented it to us; rather than undermine that effort by treating the system as legitimate and shaming others for not seeing the candidates and their futures the way I did.
Hand me two cups of shit, I still have free will to throw them back in your face. The system can force feed if it wants but you won't see me voluntarily picking a shit cup and eating shit.
I'd say that's a ridiculous choice and it's time to organize with the masses against the system that presented it to us
Agreed
rather than undermine that effort by treating the system as legitimate and shaming others for not seeing the candidates and their futures the way I did.
Nah that's dumb. I don't give a shit about "treating the system as legitimate". The system is what it is, and it will continue to be the system until it isn't anymore. That's gonna take more than a handful of people refusing to acknowledge the system's "legitimacy".
Hand me two cups of shit, I still have free will to throw them back in your face. The system can force feed if it wants but you won't see me voluntarily picking a shit cup and eating shit.
It is doing that though. You get the option to vote for which of the two cups they force feed you, and everyone else. We are not presently in a position to throw anything back right now. When we are, I'm all for it. But part of that is choosing the smaller cup of shit while we gather strength.
The point is I'm not going to lend you any legitimacy by picking up the shit and eating it myself, then turning at the people around me and asking why they aren't eating it yet. I'm going to make it impossible for the shit peddler to hide their willingness and ability to abuse their power. If I'm eating shit either way, why would I do it in a way that makes it apparent to outsiders that I'm choosing to eat shit?
And no, when you scold people for not participating in a system, you are not just not "refusing to acknowledge its legitimacy". You are promoting it, whether you care to or not. You are promoting the idea that everyone is choosing these options out of complete and true support of complete and unbiased information. This is especially true when people like you misrepresent and refuse to understand the arguments of those who choose to abstain or vote third party.
You are saying, "if you participate in this system, you could change the way things are going; and if you don't, then you implicitly consent to it", which is simply not true. Interestingly enough, you know how little power a person has when acting as an individual, which is why you minimize the reach of individuals when it comes to forms of political action other than voting, but you never apply it to the situation of voting where the ruling class has vast numbers of ways to influence people's behaviors in whatever direction they want.
The change can only come when we have built the ability to move cohesively as a class, or a voting bloc if you will, that can either take power for itself or force our leaders to come to our table if they want our compliance. We can only build this by overcoming the resentment we hold for other members of our class, and putting one foot in front of the other; turning one person at a time towards the inner workings of the machine that the ruling class works so hard to hide. Not by stoking resentment and wasting our energy trying to manipulate an illegitimate system while we wait around for the movement to build itself.
The world cares about what they do to other nations, not to themselves. Crazy gun policies? Slave labour in prisons? Your problem. Military expansionism, cripling economic sanctions, political inference? Very much our problem. That did't change.
I'm sympathetic to your argument, but ultimately they absolutely are fascist. If you doubt me, then to ask a Palestinian. There is very little that the Trump regime is doing that the Democrats weren't doing less obnoxiously and on a much slower timescale.
We can't keep accepting the lesser evil indefinitely. When you brush off the serious issues in the Democratic party with language like "no saints" you make it look like that's exactly what you intend for the country to do. I mean "politicians will be politicians". That's not convincing anymore.
There is very little that the Trump regime is doing that the Democrats weren't doing less obnoxiously and on a much slower timescale.
That part is important. I hear you about "the lesser evil" but if you're response to resisting a lesser evil results in a faster, accelerated evil then you have contributed to a much greater harm. If you doubt me, ask a Palestinian if they are better off with Democrats not having any power.
That's the part where I'm sympathetic to your argument. I think anyone not voting for Harris made a mistake. I also think the arguments people like you made for people to vote for Harris were really really bad and that you are enabling the Democrats to continue down a terrible path of failure.
I also think the arguments people like you made for people to vote for Harris were really really bad and that you are enabling the Democrats to continue down a terrible path of failure.
The argument I made for people to vote for Harris was that this is exactly what will happen if Trump wins, and 3 months before an election is not the time to try to get a viable alternative. Harris sucked, her campaign was shit, but the alternative is running the predictable course.
Now is an excellent time to work on a viable alternative, but saying "both are the same" is disingenuous, and is not actually putting an alternative forward.
To put it differently, if they are the proximate cause of the Trump presidency, then you are the ultimate cause. I throw up my hands at trying to decide which matters more.
I don't give a shit about " bankrupting the US!". It literally prints it's own money. But I sure as shit do remember Democrats going full fascist and participating in the modern Holocaust.
I'll just tell that to my brother in law who just got released from ICE custody. Like I know this picture is probably true for Gaza, but it isn't for many of my neighbors and family.
Wait until you find out Obama deported twice as many immigrants(could be just Mexicans, I can't remember) as Trump did. Or when you find out Obama dropped more bombs on Muslim countries than Trump. Or that Hillary raised twice as much money from corporations in '16 than Trump (same with Harris in' 24)
It went over your head didn't it. When he is taking about ice he is talking about erosion of law and norms. Ice has always been a thing but they were not like this.
The main purposes of DACA was to get immigrants to "come out of the shadows" and have individuals self-report and turn themselves in, in exchange for temporary benifits to, primarily, their children. As stated at the time:
“Deferred action is not a pathway to citizenship. It is not legal status. It simply says that for three years, you are not a law enforcement priority and are not going to go after you, It is temporary and it is revocable.”
It was part of a series of incredibly smart, effective and efficient moves which resulted in record high deportations without needing a bunch of jackbooted thugs cracking skulls in the street.
For a while. Now we're in the "jackbooted thugs" phase which is less efficient, but plays better with the base it's trying to appease. It's less efficient and less people are getting deported overall, which is good. But the majority of those are switching from self-deportations to direct expulsions which are getting increasingly violent, a process that started back in 2021.
Like when Obama drone struck that 16 year old American kid, and when someone in his administration was asked about it, he said that he should've had a better father? Yes, he was the son of a known terrorist. But to be fair, Trumps first military raid as president killed his sister, an 8 year old American girl, which Obama refused that mission(maybe twice, don't quote me on that). Or when Jim Carry had that drawing of a school bus full of children that were bombed and killed, and it was under Obama. Those terrorists?
Obama drone struck that 16 year old American kid, and when someone in his administration was asked about it, he said that he should’ve had a better father
Hmm I also don't remember anything offensive? To be clear, I didn't report, but at least it's good to know if/when I decide to switch instances, won't be to that one.
OK nvm, I just looked at the post. Seems like somebody on their side went a little haywire and removed a ton of comments. Now I'm offended that mine stayed up. I'm always such a ray of fucking sunshine.
Hmm, red makes it go faster so you kill more people faster but they don't suffer as long but blue gives you better team mates in matches... wait is this competitive trolley slaughter? I wasn't expecting to need a team I guess I'll choose blue because they will be carrying.
The only reason there is a “truce” is cause the Trump regime causes so much chaos they think they can get away with a hypernormalized fake truce.
Also Trump does not care one bit about what happens in reality as long as he believes that people believe him to be successful.
Towards BN he is nothing but a useful fool.
Most media channels are happy to stop reporting about this cause it was getting old but the war and famine are going on unchanged.
Can you explain you reasoning because It just sounds like you fell for hypernormalization big time.
Just to make things clear. The
Genocide is still ongoing. Trump won last time and the biggest difference it made is a classic trick got deployed to manage public perception of what the media thinks is going on.
I repeat voting against democracts does not remove any of the issues, we are just more
Frequently gaslighted against forming resistanc under Trump
The best strategy to move away from capitalism with the least bloodshed is to have people need to vote democrat during elections and then instantaneously organize mass protest against them after they win.
How are we more gaslighted against resistance with Trump? People are mobilizing in much higher numbers now, and they were quite literally shutting their ears during the Kamala campaign not to hear the names of genocide victims.
Part of why Trump won is because the majority of people loath the democrats for their blatant support of Israel. Even Bernie took a big popularity hit because of it. I am not sure where you get the perception that the people mobilising now were somehow ignorant of genocide before.
We are gaslighted against resistance because media is getting flooded with scandals and misinformation to be upset about, making it harder to unite because everyone has a different priority issue.
The no kings protest is getting people outside because many people are realising there is a major issue which deserves priority, getting the dictator out the peoples house.
You seem to confuse these people as belonging to the same groups as the weirdo democrat fans that show up to their events but its a feature by design of a two party system that the majority of voters dislike and loath the party they vote for.
Verifiably Reality is AIPAC funds both parties and both support muslim genocide, towards the Palestinian people there is no effective difference.
Also verifiable, the gop created a blueprint for turning the US in a literal fascist dictatorship, which they have been executing.
The supposed democracy advocates within the democratic party continue to refuse to fix the First-past-the-post voting system.
Dont worry, you can count on them to point out all the flaws of the voting system during the midterm while doing nothing to fix it before or afterwards.
Trump was inevitable under such conditions. If you capture one (or more) political parties in a two party system, clearly you can undo every single check and balance. Wake up blue MAGA, your continued use of the FPTP crutch is a national security threat and will cause the nation to crumble.
Was it worth it keeping those safe blue states? Was it worth the easy elections against the worst of us all?
Hey OP, you wanna go ahead and go to any neighborhood that’s been raided by ICE and tell them how the Dems are exactly just as bad as the GOP?
I'll tell you.
This shit was already happening. Yes, it's taken another step under Trump, but the incrementalism occurred with Democratic fascists as well. What Trump is able to do now would be impossible if Democrats hadn't seized on the illegal powers dreamed up by Clinton and Dubya and ran with them.
Clinton, while fucking his interns, invented 'Don't Ask Don't Tell' and did nothing about persecution of gay people, and in fact, he was the one who signed DOMA. He invented "peacekeeping actions" so he could make war without calling it that, and he did just that. He cut the social safety net wholesale, making Americans poorer, and doubled down on poverty with his 'free trade' policies that helped usher in the era of companies moving offshore and killing US jobs. Oh, and he was a regular on Epstein's island and the Lolita Express.
Obama let police run roughshod in Ferguson and New York City, brutalizing victims of police violence and people who lost their homes and decided to participate in Occupy. He appointed Tom Homan and put kids in cages. He made torture explicitly extra-legal. He walked into Flint and performatively drank a glass of water. He dropped 26,000 bombs in the last year of his presidency and left office with American wars brewing in seven countries. We also learned under Obama that police departments in the US have black sites and his presidency was kidnapping renditioning people to black sites in foreign countries. He also ordered drone bombings that killed American citizens.
We knew Biden was going to be shit when, in a time people wanted federal police reform, he mocked the change people wanted in his State of the Union address by calling for greater police militarization, and his presidency gave rise to 'cop cities'. Even worse, it's now possible for cops to hang out in a school that's getting shot up, on camera, with zero consequences. After January 6 he did nothing meaningful to slow the evident rise of domestic fascism, showing a greater interest in keeping his scumbag son out of prison. He deported undocumented immigrants by the millions and continued the policy of caging kids. Biden earned the moniker 'Genocide Joe' for aiding and abetting the genocide in Israel, even when Israel escalated it into a manufactured famine, which is a war crime. Then he ran for president knowing he had dementia, paving the way for Trump's second term, prioritizing his own ego over the country's well-being.
This isn't a 'Democrats are better' scenario. Most people just haven't really paid attention to what Democrats do or have the short-term memory of a goldfish.
And before you try to argue they were powerless, consider that all three of these men had the presidency and control of Congress, just like Trump. They had all the power they needed to make real change. They just didn't care.
Democrats tried so fucking hard to outflank the Republicans from the Right for eight long years. But as soon as they lost, its those damned leftists at fault for not voting harder.
Hell, go tell a bunch of drag queens and trans people.
I've got a trans friend who has more rotten things to say about Joe Biden than your eardrums can handle.
wanna go ahead and go to any neighborhood that's been raided by ICE and tell them how the Dems are exactly just as bad as the GOP?
Those neighborhoors will tell you that ICE had been around since 2002 and while happy you're finally getting with the program, despite the current administration's best attempts, 2012 was the worst year so far right after the democrats had their governmental trifecta and with the dreamers bait and switch.
So yes, while different flavors, they have been equally bad.
go tell a bunch of drag queens and trans people.
Republicans despise them, Democrats love to use them. That isn't necessarily better.
go find some under aged girls who've been impregnated by adult men and tell them the Dems are just as bad as the GOP.
It's relieving to see common sense on the internet, have upvote.
It's very interesting how the uniparty seems to get majority vote every single election.
Those neighborhoors will tell you that ICE had been around since 2002 and while happy you're finally getting with the program, despite the current administration's best attempts, 2012 was the worst year so far right after the democrats had their governmental trifecta and with the dreamers bait and switch.
So yes, while different flavors, they have been equally bad.
You are fucking delusional to the extreme.
While ICE has been attacking immigrants for decades, you got to be a god damn idiot to equate ICE operating under Dems compared to Trump where ICE NOW HAS A BUDGET LARGER THAN THE MARINES, IS COMPLETELY EXEMPT FROM ANY LEGAL ACTION BECAUSE TRUMP HAS THROWN OUT THE CONSTITUTION, RAMPIDLY BUILT CONCENTRATION CAMPS AT A RECORD PASTETHAT ARE MORE RESTRICTED TO THE PUBLIC THAN EVER, AND NOW ARE MASS ARRESTING LEGAL IMMIGRANTS AND CITIZENS ALIKE.
All while the rule of law has been entirely abandoned.
It was bad for immigrants before, it's actual Hell for everyone now.
Not to mention it's gotten so much worse that you can actually observe it on national economic data.
Republicans despise them, Democrats love to use them. That isn't necessarily better.
I think any marginalized community would prefer having the wiggle room of being able to exist and organize under hollow virtue signals than ACTIVE AND RAPIDLY EXPANDING GENOCIDE.
Call me crazy, but one seems a bit better than the other.
Fucking yes, the big Epstein reveal is that it's all of them. The Trumps and the Clinton's.
Completely avoiding the point. Are you playing stupid or is this just how you are?
REPUBLICANS BANNED ABORTION
REPUBLICANS WANT TO BAN CONTRACEPTIVES
Dems, believe it or not, fucking didn't.
The only people you are helping by spreading this "both sides" BULLSHIT is the fascists. Take Trump's tiny cock out of your mouth and smell the shit around you.
ICE NOW HAS A BUDGET LARGER THAN THE MARINES, IS COMPLETELY EXEMPT FROM ANY LEGAL ACTION BECAUSE TRUMP HAS THROWN OUT THE CONSTITUTION, RAMPIDLY BUILT CONCENTRATION CAMPS AT A RECORD PASTETHAT ARE MORE RESTRICTED TO THE PUBLIC THAN EVER, AND NOW ARE MASS ARRESTING LEGAL IMMIGRANTS AND CITIZENS ALIKE.
The same can be said between Trump's first term and Biden' presidency. The level of funding and militancy isn't a function of R vs D, but a function of time as they because increasingly less cost effective and require increasing force to attempt to maintain/increase the level of eliminations.
All while the rule of law has been entirely abandoned.
You're delusional if you believe in the "rule of law", that's never been how the justice system has worked in the US.
It was bad for immigrants before, it's actual Hell for everyone now.
Sorry you can no longer sleep through brunch and now have to face the realities that immigrants and others have been facing for decades.
Not to mention it's gotten so much worse that you can actually observe it on national economic data.
... What? Can you clarify what you mean by this and what data? This feels like Facebook level finger pointing and not based on any actual data or proper analysis, but I'm happy to be proven wrong there.
I think any marginalized community would prefer having the wiggle room of being able to exist and organize under hollow virtue signals than ACTIVE AND RAPIDLY EXPANDING GENOCIDE.
Your "group" being spared genocide as a tool to influct genocide on others is not the "easy moral dilemma" you make it out to be.
REPUBLICANS BANNED ABORTION
The bipartisan nominated supreme court banned abortion during a democratic party trifecta.
Blaming the Republicans primarily for that is as asinine as blaming the Democrats primarily for the current government shutdown.
Dems, believe it or not, fucking didn't.
No? So they're just completely powerless and their votes were forced even though they really, really didn't want to?
The only people you are helping by spreading this "both sides" BULLSHIT is the fascists.
The difference is who we say are fascists. Yes, the Republicans are fascist, but so are the Democrats.
Take Trump's tiny cock out of your mouth and smell the shit around you.
If there's one thing we can agree on it's that the elephant in the room is absolutely covered in shit. However, I'm busy trying to take the fucking animals outside and am currently begging for you to please, please stop sucking donkey cock, realize the problems, and help.
Hey hypocrite.
Want to tell all the deported and kids in cages under Genocide Joe how that was much better?
Or that bombing brown people everywhere in the world, droning weddings or aiding genocide of Palestinians is better bcs it's under those Dems who have those famous 'democratic values' they're always crying about?
Just say it like it is, libs only care about themselves.
You all didn't give a fuck about what you did to the world since forever.
And you probably also don't give a fuck about trans people either.
The problem is now the fascism you supported has come home, and the libs don't like the taste of their own medicine.
That's ALL that bothering you.
The GOP is full of fascists, KKK, white supremacists, religious fundamentalists and anti-science pieces of shit. There is no way to redeem them.
The Democrats are a mixture of economic conservative socialists liberals, and socialists. There is a chance to fix it.
The socialists are the minority because the economic conservatives are corrupt and very well funded by billionaire Democrats and Republicans making them an effective controlled opposition.
They have to win elections and they have to fight from within. AOC and the squad have been dealing with that since day one.
That’s my point. People that actually believe in fighting corruption can win elections in the Democratic Party. We need more people around the country to primary the centrists everywhere and work hard for the people.
We already have socialism in the US. We have a mixed system. The issue is how mixed we want it to be and what specific policies would be the most effective at improving the lives of Americans.
Examples- Social Security, Medicare, Infrastructure, Fire protection, Police, national parks
Yes exactly! Socialism is when government does stuff, anarchism is when it does nothing, fascism is when he does but shouting and communism is when we do it all together holding hands.
Here's one: study insurgencies that managed to hold off and/or beat the US and get ready to apply those tactics because that time is coming. Best get to networking too.
This thread is being targeted by a lot of no-content "correct the record" fediverse accounts, upvoting pro-genocide US democratic party and Israeli talking points. Please report them so we can ban them ASAP.
Thank you to all the posters below doing great work debunking them.
This assumes the USA is a democracy at the federal level. Where votes by people matter.
Many states use election machines, owned by oligarchs, whose operations are a closed book and are not regulated. Coincidentally those states, both red and blue, fail tests approved by the United Nations to detect tampering of votes.
Those states make the other states, that actually pass the tests, irrelevant.
What makes democracy, in the USA, unable to curb the even the very gross problems today is not the people doing the cheating.
But it is the people who refuse to call the cheating out (by addressing the real issues), and more important the majority of citizens who absolutely do not see this as a problem. It’s only when this is addressed can the actual issues of a real democracy be looked at.
Even then, real reform is hard to do in a democracy. Especially one so large and out of control as the nation we see now. So any reform has to be not using the ballot box.
They do not care if you do not vote. Actually getting you not to vote is their stated goal and they have spent decades and millions of dollars specifically trying to make it harder for you to vote.
¨Between 2009 and 2016, the Barack Obama administration oversaw the deporting of a record 2.4 million undocumented immigrants who had entered the United States, earning him the nickname "Deporter-In-Chief" by Janet Murguía, the president of National Council of La Raza. According to ICE data, about 40% of those deported by ICE in 2015 had no criminal conviction, while a majority of those convicted were guilty of minor charges. Statistics of record deportations were partly due to a change in how deportations were counted that began during the Bush administration and continued under the Obama administration.¨.
Guys you need to understand that Americans are only capable to see what is front of them. If happens in front of them is nasty stuff but if is under the radar? Is alright (Unless is a evil foreign country, they don't need to see anything to believe they are evil)
Furthermore: how many different parties are in the EU? How many EU countries are rising GDP expenditure in military to 5%? Democracy under capitalism is an illusion
Kinda crazy how democrats now are just like: "Yeah, I eat a plate of shit. I don't like it, but they told me that was the only option. So I did it, I'm proud of it, and anyone else should be ashamed to not be eating shit like me."
It's kind of funny, that democrats would rather eat bug infested cereals over a shit sandwich, when they could also push for cereals to be actually clean.
Tells you a lot about those people.
If you make me eat shit or cockroaches, I'd rather leave, thanks.
Nah it is more like. We all have been eating shit but majority thought it is steak. Lets all eat super mega shit so that majority will start to recognize.
This kind of false equivalency is how you end up with Trump.
The fact that there's no discernible difference between the parties (or, worse, that Trump rhetorically can outflank Dems from the popular left) should cause Democrats to soul-search and come back with a better political strategy. Instead, we just get this dogmatic insistence that Liz Cheney and Michael Bloomberg are better options than Donald Trump, so you have to go pound pavement in the 100° weather knocking doors, begging friends and neighbors over the phone, and dipping into your kids' college funds to "donate till it hurts" in an effort to get them elected.
It’s perfectly fine to dislike both
It clearly is not. That's the fucking problem. Telling people "go eat dogshit because its tastier than horseshit" and then bitching when your shit stand can't break even is the root of the problem.
Time and time and time again, liberal Democrats run away from the popular candidates in favor of the candidates that can raise the most money. Time and time and time again, these candidates lose to Republicans who are raising money from the exact same evil assholes.
if you think Kamala Harris and Trump were equivalent
Obviously they're different. One's got a big "D" next to her name and climbed into her California Senate seat through Jerry Brown's bed sheets. The other one was a billionaire mega-donor to Hillary Clinton's Senatorial and Presidential Primary campaigns, and hung out with her husband on trips down to Epstein Island. Also he became a Republican a few weeks after Obama won the Presidency.
What you're doing is called "Denialism". You don't want to accept that Donald Trump was a staunch friend, financial supporter, and NYC powerbroker working on behalf of the Democratic Party for decades. So instead of facing this reality and what it means about the state of the party, you're going to cover your ears and pretend it didn't happen.
If Harris were president right now, would we have gestapo roaming the streets, Nazi ghouls mentioning plenary authority, or giant corporations settling with the FCC to curry favor?
As she seemed intent on continuing the policies of the prior administrations, the answer is clearly "Yes". We had gestapo doing their dirty work all through the American Southwest going back to the Polk Administration. Bush created ICE, Obama expanded ICE, Trump expanded ICE, Biden expanded ICE, and Kamala Harris campaigned on a platform of anti-immigration that would require her to expand ICE.
Would we have goons like Steven Miller and Curtis Yarvin ranting about unitary executives and divine right of kings under a Harris Administration? Absolutely. Would they be operating in friendly Republican gubernatorial cabinets and think tanks and Congressional offices? Absolutely. Would they be setting national policy through the courts and the legislature and red state executive offices? Absolutely. If Republicans still commanded Congress, would they be authoring national policy that President Harris eventually signed into law? Abso-fucking-lutely.
Would Larry Ellison and Bob Iger and Satya Nadella be kicking back tens of millions of dollars to Republican allies via "settlements"? Would Citadel and JP Morgan be bribing politicians with large purchases of shitcoins to get around campaign contribution limits and other anti-corruption laws? 100% guaranteed. They were doing this shit before Trump took office. Why would they stop now?
Your problem isn't that these fascist policies exist. Your problem is that they've breached "containment" in Red States. Now it's not just a Texas problem or a Florida problem. Its an Everybody problem. You can't just ignore the fascism anymore. You can't say "Those fuckers down south are getting what they deserve".
Now you're down in the shit here with the rest of us. Welcome to hell, asshole.
Both are shit sandwiches. Trying to use analogy to obfuscate willing participation in genocide, perpetuation of imperialism, brutalization of immigrants, etc doesn't actually erase material reality.
Libs are almost pathologically reliant on analogies even in the simplest of scenarios because talking about things as they really are is often indefensible and would necessitate saying the most ghoulish and monstrous shit
I'm not ignoring everything except one aspect, though. Both are genocidal, and both serve the interests of the US Empire above all-else, and as such they share far more in common than not. I'm not ignorant, and you can take your faux-superiority back. I've been here far longer than you have, telling me to go back to Reddit doesn't make any sense. I'm a communist, the devs are communists, and a lot of communists are on Lemmy after various subreddits like r/GenZedong, r/TheDeprogram, and r/ChapoTrapHouse got banned. What I say fits in here.
I’m not pretending America is the best country, or Harris would be the best for the world.
I have 0 interest in Defending her, but claiming they’re the same with a straight face is fucking laughable. America would be a better country internally and on the global stage with her in charge, by any metric that isn’t “burn all capitalism down”.
Here’s an easy one - would Harris have sent a citizen to CECOT without a trial? Obviously not, because she’s demonstrably different from Trump, like any 3 year old could determine.
The US Empire is the world's worst country. It's the biggest exporter of genocide and terror, and the world's biggest plunderer. Harris would maintain that exact same brutal system, domestically and internationally. It's not hard to be better than them. Yes, Harris would send people to CECOT without trial, every imperialist president has done acts like that.
Chill out with the calling everyone to your left a child or a Russian bot, etc. It's the peak of liberalism.
She sent a transwoman to mens prison, who got raped and joked about it.
You're pathetically trying to defend this evil ghoul:
Under her jurisdiction, in "progressive" San Francisco, 56% of all inmates in SF jails were black, along with 40% of all arrests (Only 5.8% of the population is black). Ignores police brutality, protected 14 of her officers who were caught sending extremely racist text messages. Oversaw San Francisco’s felony conviction rate rising from 52% to 67% in only 3 years.
As part of her tough on crime approach she assigned senior prosecutors to misdemeanors like graffiti and vandalism, tripling the number of cases brought to trial.
After a federal judge orders California to expand prison releases to reduce crowding, her office argued in court that if forced to release these inmates early, prisons would lose an important labor pool.
Spent years jailing disproportionately black nonviolent cannabis users while opposing taking cannabis off DEA’s list of most dangerous substances and literally laughing at the idea of legalizing it multiple times, even as her Republican opponent ran to the left of her on the issue. She then tried to pander by admitting to smoking herself despite prosecuting others, but got her story all wrong. Drug convictions under her office soared, convicting more people of marijuana possession than her predecessor (she also admitted to smoking marijuana) 2
Laughs about threatening parents with jailtime for truancy. 2. The stories of several mothers she jailed.
Pushed a law that forced schools to turn over undocumented students to ICE.
Opposed reforming California’s three-strikes law, which is the only one in the country to impose life sentences for minor felonies and incarcerates black people at 12x the rate as white people, three different times, even while her Republican opponent supported reform.
Tried to deny a transgender inmate healthcare and endangered trans women by forcing them into mens prisons, leading to the rape and torture of at least one trans inmate.
Appealed a judge ruling that the death penalty was unconstitutional and won on a technicality, resulting in continued executions.
Supports the controversial DNA search technique that can be used on people even if they’ve not been charged with a crime.
Supported the discriminatory practice of cash bail in court, until 2016.
Protected serial child rapists by refusing to prosecute in the Catholic Church sex abuse scandal.
Lied about her state’s solitary confinement to block a suit by inmates, claiming there was none in California when there were about 6,400 victims of the practice, which is considered torture.
Opposed legislation that would require independent investigation of fatal police shootings despite criticism from many civil rights advocates including California’s Legislative Black Caucus.
Opposed statewide implementation of police body cameras and ignored police brutality, multiple officers raping a teenager, and other officers sharing racist and homophobic messages, despite multiple requests from the public defender.
Stood by silently as $730 million was spent on moving inmates to for-profit private prisons.
And as cherry on the cake fully complicit in a horrible genocide, and you want to claim she would hypothetically be better in the future? LOL
You really disgust me.
You are not better but worse.
It's the hypocrisy that bothers me most, at least one side has the balls to say they're fascists.
Unlike you cowardly worms pretending to be good while being absolute scum.
Hope you all get slow cancer.
You're not "forced" to do anything.
There are 3rd parties as always.
You can find reasons and excuses not to vote for them but that's all on you.
Glad you ended up with Trump.
Fascists and fascist-lite voters deserve it.
The problem here is structural. For president especially a 3rd party candidate is nothing more than a spoiler. It’s less so if they can win for the house or senate. I would whole heartedly agree with you if the Us had a parliamentary or ranked choice. But we don’t and until we do; with the demo crates it’s a slightly more likely, then just vote for the least fascist that has a chance to win. Use your 3rd party vote in the primaries.
The US Empire will never pass ranked choice voting in a manner that allows for systemic change. The point of the political system is to perpetuate the economic system, and fixing the problems with society requires advancing to socialism and leaving capitalism behind.
a 3rd party candidate is nothing more than a spoiler.
And there we go with the excuses.
In non-banana republics with a normal political landscape and populations with spines there have been parties and candidates scoring 1-2 percent, then 10, then 60. Or the other way.
That's how elections work, and nobody of those initial 1-2% voters gave up.
Since outside the US, nobody propagates that defeatist BS.
But OC, this election is “the most important election in history and in our lifetime” so now is not the time to rdo such crazy things as not vote for a duopoly you supposedly don't like but have since the beginning of your miserable country.
You have only yourself to blame and deserve zero sympathy.
On the contrary.
You're like an arsonist that constantly burns houses and now cries because he managed to set his own home on fire.
Well burn baby burn.
This kind of false equivalency is how you end up with Trump.
Democrats needed to do more to differentiate themselves. But they're still stuck in 1992 and think that if they just triangulate with fascists and treat their own base as hostages, that they're entitled to victory.
The relationship of the revolutionary workers’ party to the petty-bourgeois democrats is this: it cooperates with them against the party which they aim to overthrow; it opposes them wherever they wish to secure their own position.
What that means in the American system is we vote against liberals in the primaries, and we vote for them against the fascists. America doesn't have ranked choice voting, but voting socialist in the primaries and left (out of the two candidates presented) in the generals is the closest approximation. This is the Karl Marx approved strategy, as you can see from his speech to the Communist League.
Now let's talk about this meme. It's fake news. There was no Alligator Auschwitz under the Democrats. Guantanamo Bay wasn't a concentration camp for immigrants under the Democrats. I submit that the Democrats are at least 1% better than the Republicans, and that this proves the meme is fake news. And if anyone replies to this comment and says well 1% isn't good enough, I'm going to accuse you of moving the goalposts, because this meme says colour is the only difference. The meme doesn't say 1% less people get run over by the trolley, and I think there are at least 1% fewer state caused deaths under the Democrats.
In the present day, ICE (U.S._Immigration_and_Customs_Enforcement), the police tasked with immigration enforcement, operates over 500 prison camps, holding over 34,000 undocumented people deemed "aliens", 20,000 of which have no criminal convictions, in the US system of immigration detention. The camps include forced labor (often with contracts from private companies), poor conditions, lack of rights (since the undocumented aren't considered citizens), and forced deportations, often splitting up families. Detainees are often held for a year without trial, with antiquated court procedures pushing back court dates for months, encouraging many to accept immediate deportation in the hopes of being able to return faster than the court can reach a decision, but forfeiting legal status, in a cruel system of coercion. After the creation of DHS and ICE, the budget for immigration enforcement doubled from $6.2 billion in 2002 to $12.5 billion in 2006 under Obama.1, 2,3
Guantanamo Bay wasn't a concentration camp for immigrants under the Democrats.
The democrats didn't close their torture camp in Cuba either.
If you go to university and do any kind of field that involves essay writing, you'll learn to use a thesis statement to summarise your argument so people know what you're arguing for. You've provided some evidence, but it's entirely unclear what your position is in this conversation other than "the democrats do bad things sometimes". If your entire position is "the democrats do bad things sometimes", then great job! We're all very proud of you for proving the democrats do bad things sometimes. Now go do your fucking job developing the Lemmy software, because this software is full of issues and the grownups are talking about important issues that actually have a point.
Now go do your fucking job developing the Lemmy software, because this software is full of issues and the grownups are talking about important issues that actually have a point.
Leaving this comment up to show the titanic levels of entitlement and arrogance from the anti-communist crowd.
Even open source devs only exist to do free labor for them, we're not people to them.
I submit that the Democrats are at least 1% better than the Republicans, and that this proves the meme is fake news.
You can't just state something as fact and not show your work. You are making a claim it's up to you to support it. You can't just go around saying "I'm right unless you prove the negative".
You have not placed any goalposts to begin with, what is your definition of "better"? By what metric are you using? What do you mean by "under the Democrats"?
How about we define "better" as "death rate per capita within immigration detention centers"? And "under the Democrats/Republicans" as "who holds the executive branch"? We should see an increase during the Bush years, when ICE was first created, a decrease during the Obama years, followed by an increase during Trump's first term, decrease during Biden, and increase under Trump's second term right?
Is that what happened?
If you don't like my attempt at making your claim falsifiable, which I suspect you won't; especially when you see the results, feel free to redefine your lose language into something else rigid and falsifiable. Set those goalposts.
yes she prosecuted and jailed so many innocent innocent kids in her past, and then continued under her vice presidency with her decisions and under direct administration to get so many people raped and genocided. so is your question, did we prefer to vote to get little raped rather than super raped? some would argue the latter because it'd cause a crisis to the system that would get the people to wake up and do something about it while little rape would be just as painful and last forever without change.
so remimd me, do you prefer little rape and prosection for your immediate family only that lasts forever without any hope or anyone fighting for you? or would you rather all your city get raped and prosecuted but with hundrends of millions of people nationwide and globally fighting the system to end it and free you?
You win! How should I have handled the 2024 election differently to save my country, they who have all the answers?
Also, please explain, when my choices were ONLY a little rape and a lot of rape how stamping my feet and loudly explaining that rape is bad would accomplish…. What?
You can do what you like, what I wouldn’t bother do is pointing out the difference in the two main USA political parties, cause there’s no point. One does fascism and mistreats the working class with a smile, one does it with an angry face.
Just tell me this first, would a casually fascist president really make you feel that much better than an overtly fascist one?
It’s something I’m really struggling to get my head round…cause I can’t believe how far right USA parties are compared to U.K. ones….and we are fucked.
“Just let me avoid answering your question and… “
No. They’re demonstrably not the same, as evidenced by you inability to answer the question. Also basic common sense.
If you have to vote between a candidate who wants to build 5 concentration camps and another candidate who wants to build one. You vote for the candidate that only wants to build only one concentration camp. Sure, both candidates are really bad, but one is considerably worse.
Therefore, we must still vote for the lesser of two evils. Not voting at all because both sides bad is how democracy dies, especially when democracy itself is under attack right now.
If you have to vote between a candidate who wants to build 5 concentration camps and another candidate who wants to build one. You vote for the candidate that only wants to build only one concentration camp.
Well it's a good thing that we didn't have that binary choice then. My ballot had a few options, some of them even opposing concentration camps, so I got to vote against them.
I would vote a third party if it doesn't just help the right win. If only we had ranked choice voting instead of the electrol college, then we could crub the 2 party system. Unfortunately, in the US, it's either red team or blue team because until you can change the hearts and minds of millions of people, then it's always going to be one of them.
I mean, I believe nixus was talking about voting third party, which here in America is just another way of abstaining to vote. The concentration camp example was just to point out that to say one bad candidate against an objectively worse candidate doesn't automatically mean they're both equally as bad. I regret using concentration camps as an example though. Perhaps a better example would be if you had the choice of voting for either Benito Mussolini or Bill Clinton. Both candidates are bad, but if I vote for one of them, am I in the wrong to make sure Mussolini doesn't win by voting for Bill Clinton?
The concentration camps are a perfect example. No one's saying both sides are the exact same. They're saying they both serve US imperialism. Case and point: one side wants 5 concentration camps, the other thinks that's a little too much and we should settle for 1.
If you want to build concentration camps you're a fascist. If you're okay with a party wanting to build concentration camps or can look past it you're a fascist. You wouldn't accept someone in the 1930s saying "yeah what the nazis are doing with the Jews is bad but have you seen their treatment of animals? I'll vote for them but I'm no Nazi."
So, what do you suggest I do then as an alternative to voting in this scenario? I suppose I could spill the blood of the politicians that want to build concentration camps, but once again unless I change the minds of millions of people and start a full blown civil war, then the bloodshed will be pointless. I could also move away from America, but that's assuming I could even afford to do that let alone be able to do it legally. The only power I have as an American citizen as of now is to vote. That's the only power I have. Protesting will eventually just get me arrested or murdered once Trump completes his power grab.
You have more power than just voting every 4 years lmao. Get organised and start interacting with like minded people and get other people on your side. Every 4 years there's 1540 days where you could be fighting fascism and you're only doing it for 1.
If you have to vote between a candidate who wants to build 5 concentration camps and another candidate who wants to build one
So you support China in their liberation of Tibet from feudal serfdom? You support the Soviet Union destroying Nazism despite the excesses made in the gulag years? Or do you only extend this courtesy to capitalist imperialist regimes?
Obviously not. I don't support building concentration camps in general, and China is a bad example since there's no opposing party in Chinq. Admittedly, the example I gave was a bit on the extreme side. Regardless, I still disagree that if both sides are bad then they automatically are equalivent and thus voting is pointless as the meme seems to imply.
If Harris had won the 2024 election, do you honestly think she would be mass deporting immigrants without a trial, starting a trade war with China, attempt to cut funding for FEMA, etc? Sure, I'll give you that she would have been content with the genocide in Gaza and would have been propping up the capitalist status quo. However, is that truly equilvent to what Trump has done in just his first year of his second term?
If Harris had won the 2024 election, do you honestly think she would be mass deporting immigrants without a trial, starting a trade war with China, attempt to cut funding for FEMA, etc?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the senate controlled by the right? Wasn't it them that pushed for mass deportations?
I suppose you do have a point though, Harris wouldn't need to be the only one who wins to make an actual difference, even if she would have just upheld the status quo that led to the rise in fascism. Still would have preferred that over what Trump is doing atm
Sadly, western genocide will happen REGARDLESS of who I vote for, yeah. So, what do you propose I do about it other than protest and likely get arrested by ICE in a couple years for it? Attempt to sail aid to the people in Gaza and die along with them? I suppose it would preferable to get shot and die than live in a fascist America where my friends and family have to suffer, not to undermine what Gaza is going through though.
I suggest you don't engage in lesser evilism with the west if you're not willing to do with with geopolitics. Or if you're willing to do it, then supoort China in the international geopolitics.
Yeah democrats really care about the poor.
And they totally wouldn't increase the ICE budget, and deportations.
edit: By the way, you might want want to be a little less transparent with vote manipulation. I just banned 3 of your no-content alts.
She has her own list of atrocities to account for, but most importantly, she's pro-israel, and pro-genocide.
It's so funny that the libs are downvoting this. So much for the 'you have to look past her flaws for now, she's our only chance against Trump' rhetoric.
The campaign is over. She lost. What's the excuse for still supporting her now?
Blue MAGA are doing their best to live up to the epithet. It was never about ideology or morality. Kamala is OUR TEAM and OUR TEAM GOOD.
The point isn't to defend her now, it's to point out that it would have been much better if she won over trump. It's to point out that If you didn't vote for her, you are at fault for Trump's win. It's to point out that unless enough people figure out that concept real soon, we will lose the ability to gain some control in the midterms and we will probably lose our democracy for the foreseeable future.
The KHIVE is here to correct the record on her prison slave labor scandals, defense of white supremacist cops, disproportionate jailing of black people, and staunch support for Israel.
"Let me mention a few negligeable differences like crypto and ignore all the blatant similarities which actually matter"
A genocide is not when Russia kills mostly soldiers. War crimes sure, but not everything is genocide.
Also long range missiles are not "defensive weapons"
Those are small differences to you? Wow.
Anyway, this infighting is exactly what the shit-ass gop wants. Nice.
You advocating that people should vote for the duopoly is exactly what the duopoly wants.
Notice I didn't say that either. Good reading skills, chump.
You mean champ. Or chimp?
The Trump term has literally seen a truce to the genocide in Palestine. This isn't an endorsement of Trump, he's a fascist piece of shit, but to those constantly bickering about genocide being worse under Trump, where are you now?!
There is no war, there is an ongoing genocide of Palestinians by the settler colony of Israel.
And yes, the genocide very much didn't end unfortunately, and it won't end until Isntreal is driven out of the region. But it has been ameliorated. By all accounts, dem supporters constantly were ranting about how "not voting for Kamala worsens the genocide", and this is, factually, not what we're seeing.
There isn't genocide in Ukraine, there is an inter-imperialist war going on in Ukraine. Using the label "genocide" to every conflict is very harmful to people like Palestinians who are actively being starved en-masse and kept out of reach of basic medicine, healthcare and even fucking drinking water.
France can't even fucking recognize the state of Palestine until like a week ago, and now they're authorities in genocide? Fuck them.
As for your points list:
#1 goes mostly from claims by the Ukrainian government. It is true that Russia has extracted children from the warzone and it is true that in some cases these children have been sent to adoptive families in Russia, which I heavily condemn, but it's not a generalized thing and most confirmed extracted children have been returned eventually. The official numbers by the Ukrainian government aren't confirmed by any investigative journalism and the invaded Ukrainian state has obvious motivations to claim abduction of Ukrainian children and violations of human rights. The Russian government makes similar claims of forced de-Russification of ethnic Russians in Donbas to justify its invasion of Ukraine, which I hope you don't take seriously because it's obviously state propaganda.
#2 A statement doesn't make a genocide.
#3 Civilian deaths in the Ukrainian war, by any metric you want to use, are contained compared to any imperialist war carried out by the west. Civilian death ratio in the unlawful and horrifying invasion of Iraq was comparably much higher and it wasn't a genocide in my opinion (probably not in yours either). However horrifying the invasion of Ukraine is, it responds to patterns of war between nations, not of genocide attempts against a population.
#4 Isolated instances of war crimes don't imply a generalized intent to massacre civilians of a given ethnicity. War crimes are horrible and the perpetrators should be brought to justice, but again, the scale you bring of "hundreds" doesn't respond to genocidal goals. Massacres of civilians take place in many wars (see Vietnam, Libya...) and are war crimes, but not every war crime is genocide.
Please, do not dillute the meaning of the word "genocide". It's meant to carry an extremely heavy connotation of attempt of total extermination of an ethnicity and culture, and throwing it around lightly is an injury to people suffering from it.
When Russia started relocating Ukrainian children into Russian families, that made it a coordinated effort to eliminate a people, which makes it a genocide.
After 2 years of insisting, Ukraine provided list of 339 names of missing children of which 161 were found living with parents in Germany. The entire "kidnapped children" take is pure atrocity propaganda.
On the other side, in 2014-2022 Ukraine killed 15000 people in Donbas and forced millions more to migrate. THIS is considtent with UN definition of genocide.
Yeah sure everything you don't like is Putin personal propaganda, i wish you swift and hard crash with reality.
You mean when they fulfilled their obligations under international law to move children away from active war zones?
Fucking monsters, they didn't even put a wall of them in front of their weapons like true humanitarians in Ukraine.
Most of the claims of relocation of Ukrainian children to Russian families come from the government of Ukraine, not from independent investigative journalism. The Ukrainian government has obvious reasons to do this atrocity propaganda. The Russian government itself justified the start of the war on similar grounds, arguing that Russian ethnics in eastern Ukraine were being genocided by Ukraine through forced Ukrainization and the banning of Russian language. I don't take the Russian government seriously when it makes such claims because I haven't seen much independent journalism confirming it, I apply the same reasoning to the claim of Ukrainian children being kidnapped en-masse and forcibly Russified.
As far as I know, there are only a handful of independently confirmed cases of Ukrainian children being sent to adoptive families in Russia, and most children evacuated by the Russian military have been returned to their families in Ukraine. There aren't many cases of either because, as you may expect, in an attrition war in which the movements of the frontline are slow, there are very few children near the frontlines.
They just do nothing to stop the fascists when they have power and do everything they can to compromise with them.
If there's one lesson to be learned this year, it's that politicians who compromise with fascists are still miles better than just uncompromised fascism.
What's the actual difference? You end up at the same place with either one.
Says who? Yeah, the Dems are filthy neolibs, but all they really care about is money and influence. They're rainbow capitalists.
The other is literally based on hate and fear, they might actually care about building a christo-nationalist ethnostate more than money.
They certainly have some goals in common, but even compromise isn't going to the same place.
Correct.
That is why they maintain American imperialism.
Such as funding a genocide in the middle east.
Exactly. They fund genocide because it's politically expedient. The opposition funds genocide because they love killing brown people
It's conceivable to convince one side that genocide is no longer politically favorable. You're never going to convince the other side to stop wanting to kill brown people. There is no third option with prospects to win.
You cannot convince the rich and powerful that it's politically unfavourable when it's economically favourable to do genocide.
They don't care about what people want. They care about what they want, and that's US imperialism.
This feels like trying to explain to someone that you can have 2 different infinities, and one is larger than the other. Both are bad, but one is clearly worse.
"What's the difference if you end up at the same place?"
The difference is that 2 genocides is not the same place as 1 genocide. It is reasonable to criticize the people supporting a genocide while at the same time recognizing that the people wanting more genocides are not the same.
The only real difference is that there are consequences for you at home in the US and that's the only part you actually care about
I don't live in the US, there are no consequences for me as a result of Trump being president. Significantly more people are being harmed under Trump and I actually give a shit about other people instead of putting some idealized moral high ground above actual human lives.
Zero genocide isn't an idealised moral high ground and it's incredibly telling to see someone excuse it.
People were being harmed under Biden, our foreign and domestic policy has consequences for the vast majority of the world, you're either a moron or lying
And a million dead kids because Trump killed usaid but go off I guess.
"But what about the american children" like I said
How do you find yourself typing something like this and not pause for thought?
What's worse than genocide?
2 genocides.
I don't know how to make this any more clear.
Hell yeah brother. Personally I think Hitler was fucking great and would vote for him in a heartbeat if it meant stopping Himmler from being in charge. /s
Seriously, how do you not pause for thought typing that out?
the paradox of tolerance, ever heard of it?
Yup. Ever heard of Duverger"s Law?
Great hero of the people: Neville Chamberlain
If you had to choose between Neville Chamberlain and Hitler?
I'd say that's a ridiculous choice and it's time to organize with the masses against the system that presented it to us; rather than undermine that effort by treating the system as legitimate and shaming others for not seeing the candidates and their futures the way I did.
Hand me two cups of shit, I still have free will to throw them back in your face. The system can force feed if it wants but you won't see me voluntarily picking a shit cup and eating shit.
Agreed
Nah that's dumb. I don't give a shit about "treating the system as legitimate". The system is what it is, and it will continue to be the system until it isn't anymore. That's gonna take more than a handful of people refusing to acknowledge the system's "legitimacy".
It is doing that though. You get the option to vote for which of the two cups they force feed you, and everyone else. We are not presently in a position to throw anything back right now. When we are, I'm all for it. But part of that is choosing the smaller cup of shit while we gather strength.
The point is I'm not going to lend you any legitimacy by picking up the shit and eating it myself, then turning at the people around me and asking why they aren't eating it yet. I'm going to make it impossible for the shit peddler to hide their willingness and ability to abuse their power. If I'm eating shit either way, why would I do it in a way that makes it apparent to outsiders that I'm choosing to eat shit?
And no, when you scold people for not participating in a system, you are not just not "refusing to acknowledge its legitimacy". You are promoting it, whether you care to or not. You are promoting the idea that everyone is choosing these options out of complete and true support of complete and unbiased information. This is especially true when people like you misrepresent and refuse to understand the arguments of those who choose to abstain or vote third party.
You are saying, "if you participate in this system, you could change the way things are going; and if you don't, then you implicitly consent to it", which is simply not true. Interestingly enough, you know how little power a person has when acting as an individual, which is why you minimize the reach of individuals when it comes to forms of political action other than voting, but you never apply it to the situation of voting where the ruling class has vast numbers of ways to influence people's behaviors in whatever direction they want.
The change can only come when we have built the ability to move cohesively as a class, or a voting bloc if you will, that can either take power for itself or force our leaders to come to our table if they want our compliance. We can only build this by overcoming the resentment we hold for other members of our class, and putting one foot in front of the other; turning one person at a time towards the inner workings of the machine that the ruling class works so hard to hide. Not by stoking resentment and wasting our energy trying to manipulate an illegitimate system while we wait around for the movement to build itself.
More like choosing between Hindenburg and Hitler.
The world cares about what they do to other nations, not to themselves. Crazy gun policies? Slave labour in prisons? Your problem. Military expansionism, cripling economic sanctions, political inference? Very much our problem. That did't change.
They aren't fascists, yet they're committing a genocide:
Democrats: against every genocide except the current one.
I'm sympathetic to your argument, but ultimately they absolutely are fascist. If you doubt me, then to ask a Palestinian. There is very little that the Trump regime is doing that the Democrats weren't doing less obnoxiously and on a much slower timescale.
We can't keep accepting the lesser evil indefinitely. When you brush off the serious issues in the Democratic party with language like "no saints" you make it look like that's exactly what you intend for the country to do. I mean "politicians will be politicians". That's not convincing anymore.
Just to clarify this to others:
That part is important. I hear you about "the lesser evil" but if you're response to resisting a lesser evil results in a faster, accelerated evil then you have contributed to a much greater harm. If you doubt me, ask a Palestinian if they are better off with Democrats not having any power.
They're certainly no worse off.
OP just said that under Trump the genocide is happening faster and you don't consider that worse off?
Because they're lying; the genocide was just as bad under Biden
That's the part where I'm sympathetic to your argument. I think anyone not voting for Harris made a mistake. I also think the arguments people like you made for people to vote for Harris were really really bad and that you are enabling the Democrats to continue down a terrible path of failure.
The argument I made for people to vote for Harris was that this is exactly what will happen if Trump wins, and 3 months before an election is not the time to try to get a viable alternative. Harris sucked, her campaign was shit, but the alternative is running the predictable course.
Now is an excellent time to work on a viable alternative, but saying "both are the same" is disingenuous, and is not actually putting an alternative forward.
To put it differently, if they are the proximate cause of the Trump presidency, then you are the ultimate cause. I throw up my hands at trying to decide which matters more.
I don't give a shit about " bankrupting the US!". It literally prints it's own money. But I sure as shit do remember Democrats going full fascist and participating in the modern Holocaust.
By which you mean they're genocidal monsters.
I'll just tell that to my brother in law who just got released from ICE custody. Like I know this picture is probably true for Gaza, but it isn't for many of my neighbors and family.
Wait until you find out Obama deported twice as many immigrants(could be just Mexicans, I can't remember) as Trump did. Or when you find out Obama dropped more bombs on Muslim countries than Trump. Or that Hillary raised twice as much money from corporations in '16 than Trump (same with Harris in' 24)
It went over your head didn't it. When he is taking about ice he is talking about erosion of law and norms. Ice has always been a thing but they were not like this.
But go on.
Always is a stretch. Since 2003 during the Patriot Act days.
It is also true people benefited from Obama's DACA program. This isn't a simple trolley problem let alone a single track
The difference is method, not end result.
The main purposes of DACA was to get immigrants to "come out of the shadows" and have individuals self-report and turn themselves in, in exchange for temporary benifits to, primarily, their children. As stated at the time:
It was part of a series of incredibly smart, effective and efficient moves which resulted in record high deportations without needing a bunch of jackbooted thugs cracking skulls in the street.
For a while. Now we're in the "jackbooted thugs" phase which is less efficient, but plays better with the base it's trying to appease. It's less efficient and less people are getting deported overall, which is good. But the majority of those are switching from self-deportations to direct expulsions which are getting increasingly violent, a process that started back in 2021.
Like when Obama drone struck that 16 year old American kid, and when someone in his administration was asked about it, he said that he should've had a better father? Yes, he was the son of a known terrorist. But to be fair, Trumps first military raid as president killed his sister, an 8 year old American girl, which Obama refused that mission(maybe twice, don't quote me on that). Or when Jim Carry had that drawing of a school bus full of children that were bombed and killed, and it was under Obama. Those terrorists?
Oh boy the irony
Really takes you back to the outrage when Trump said "We have to take out their families"
To mods:
How my comment was breaking this rule: "1. Be civil and nice"? Who did I insult?
Perhaps you need a third rule: "3. Don't post anything that goes against Russian and Chinese propaganda"
Hmm I also don't remember anything offensive? To be clear, I didn't report, but at least it's good to know if/when I decide to switch instances, won't be to that one.
OK nvm, I just looked at the post. Seems like somebody on their side went a little haywire and removed a ton of comments. Now I'm offended that mine stayed up. I'm always such a ray of fucking sunshine.
The Democrats have consistently expanded ICE
Hmm, red makes it go faster so you kill more people faster but they don't suffer as long but blue gives you better team mates in matches... wait is this competitive trolley slaughter? I wasn't expecting to need a team I guess I'll choose blue because they will be carrying.
With democrats at the (wheel?). Its the same trolley, the same track and the same people on it.
But they mostly abide by a legal speed limit and in general go much slower.
Sometimes they get to a full stopt and get out to clear some people manually to get back going.
The gop sees this and cries out that these slow speed limits are the problem. Go fast, get there quicker.
Neither party wants to talk seriously about where we’re going.
Neither wants to stop.
Shit none of them talk about where theyre at. The bleeding edge of late stage capitalism.
And they're only going slower so they can keep going longer
Tell that to Palestinians, the truce has been implemented famously not during democrat rule.
The only reason there is a “truce” is cause the Trump regime causes so much chaos they think they can get away with a hypernormalized fake truce.
Also Trump does not care one bit about what happens in reality as long as he believes that people believe him to be successful. Towards BN he is nothing but a useful fool.
Most media channels are happy to stop reporting about this cause it was getting old but the war and famine are going on unchanged.
So an amelioration of genocide is insufficient to you? Good, it's insufficient to me too, that's why I suggest voting against democrats too
Can you explain you reasoning because It just sounds like you fell for hypernormalization big time.
Just to make things clear. The Genocide is still ongoing. Trump won last time and the biggest difference it made is a classic trick got deployed to manage public perception of what the media thinks is going on.
I repeat voting against democracts does not remove any of the issues, we are just more Frequently gaslighted against forming resistanc under Trump
The best strategy to move away from capitalism with the least bloodshed is to have people need to vote democrat during elections and then instantaneously organize mass protest against them after they win.
How are we more gaslighted against resistance with Trump? People are mobilizing in much higher numbers now, and they were quite literally shutting their ears during the Kamala campaign not to hear the names of genocide victims.
FIY
Part of why Trump won is because the majority of people loath the democrats for their blatant support of Israel. Even Bernie took a big popularity hit because of it. I am not sure where you get the perception that the people mobilising now were somehow ignorant of genocide before.
We are gaslighted against resistance because media is getting flooded with scandals and misinformation to be upset about, making it harder to unite because everyone has a different priority issue.
The no kings protest is getting people outside because many people are realising there is a major issue which deserves priority, getting the dictator out the peoples house.
You seem to confuse these people as belonging to the same groups as the weirdo democrat fans that show up to their events but its a feature by design of a two party system that the majority of voters dislike and loath the party they vote for.
Verifiably Reality is AIPAC funds both parties and both support muslim genocide, towards the Palestinian people there is no effective difference.
Also verifiable, the gop created a blueprint for turning the US in a literal fascist dictatorship, which they have been executing.
What are you talking about? How is the genocide under Trump any worse than it was during Democrats??
what?
I touch grass for one full day and miss this thread? Oh well...
Hey hey don't start with excuses. Russian/CCP bots don't need to touch grass!
Oof, you caught me! lol
The supposed democracy advocates within the democratic party continue to refuse to fix the First-past-the-post voting system.
Dont worry, you can count on them to point out all the flaws of the voting system during the midterm while doing nothing to fix it before or afterwards.
Trump was inevitable under such conditions. If you capture one (or more) political parties in a two party system, clearly you can undo every single check and balance. Wake up blue MAGA, your continued use of the FPTP crutch is a national security threat and will cause the nation to crumble.
Was it worth it keeping those safe blue states? Was it worth the easy elections against the worst of us all?
America last, party over country at all costs.
::: spoiler Electoral Reform Videos
First Past The Post voting (What most states use now)
Videos on alternative electoral systems
STAR voting
Alternative vote
Ranked Choice voting
Range Voting
Single Transferable Vote
Mixed Member Proportional representation :::
Don't threaten me with a good time
Hey OP, you wanna go ahead and go to any neighborhood that's been raided by ICE and tell them how the Dems are exactly just as bad as the GOP?
Hell, go tell a bunch of drag queens and trans people.
While you're at it, go find some under aged girls who've been impregnated by adult men and tell them the Dems are just as bad as the GOP.
I'm sure it'll resonate with all of them /s
I'll tell you.
This shit was already happening. Yes, it's taken another step under Trump, but the incrementalism occurred with Democratic fascists as well. What Trump is able to do now would be impossible if Democrats hadn't seized on the illegal powers dreamed up by Clinton and Dubya and ran with them.
Clinton, while fucking his interns, invented 'Don't Ask Don't Tell' and did nothing about persecution of gay people, and in fact, he was the one who signed DOMA. He invented "peacekeeping actions" so he could make war without calling it that, and he did just that. He cut the social safety net wholesale, making Americans poorer, and doubled down on poverty with his 'free trade' policies that helped usher in the era of companies moving offshore and killing US jobs. Oh, and he was a regular on Epstein's island and the Lolita Express.
Obama let police run roughshod in Ferguson and New York City, brutalizing victims of police violence and people who lost their homes and decided to participate in Occupy. He appointed Tom Homan and put kids in cages. He made torture explicitly extra-legal. He walked into Flint and performatively drank a glass of water. He dropped 26,000 bombs in the last year of his presidency and left office with American wars brewing in seven countries. We also learned under Obama that police departments in the US have black sites and his presidency was
kidnappingrenditioning people to black sites in foreign countries. He also ordered drone bombings that killed American citizens.We knew Biden was going to be shit when, in a time people wanted federal police reform, he mocked the change people wanted in his State of the Union address by calling for greater police militarization, and his presidency gave rise to 'cop cities'. Even worse, it's now possible for cops to hang out in a school that's getting shot up, on camera, with zero consequences. After January 6 he did nothing meaningful to slow the evident rise of domestic fascism, showing a greater interest in keeping his scumbag son out of prison. He deported undocumented immigrants by the millions and continued the policy of caging kids. Biden earned the moniker 'Genocide Joe' for aiding and abetting the genocide in Israel, even when Israel escalated it into a manufactured famine, which is a war crime. Then he ran for president knowing he had dementia, paving the way for Trump's second term, prioritizing his own ego over the country's well-being.
This isn't a 'Democrats are better' scenario. Most people just haven't really paid attention to what Democrats do or have the short-term memory of a goldfish.
And before you try to argue they were powerless, consider that all three of these men had the presidency and control of Congress, just like Trump. They had all the power they needed to make real change. They just didn't care.
Obama Leaves Office As 'Deporter-In-Chief'
Democrats tried so fucking hard to outflank the Republicans from the Right for eight long years. But as soon as they lost, its those damned leftists at fault for not voting harder.
I've got a trans friend who has more rotten things to say about Joe Biden than your eardrums can handle.
Sure, which victim of Clinton's should we start with?
Those neighborhoors will tell you that ICE had been around since 2002 and while happy you're finally getting with the program, despite the current administration's best attempts, 2012 was the worst year so far right after the democrats had their governmental trifecta and with the dreamers bait and switch.
So yes, while different flavors, they have been equally bad.
Republicans despise them, Democrats love to use them. That isn't necessarily better.
Fucking yes, the big Epstein reveal is that it's all of them. The Trumps and the Clinton's.
It's relieving to see common sense on the internet, have upvote. It's very interesting how the uniparty seems to get majority vote every single election.
You are fucking delusional to the extreme.
While ICE has been attacking immigrants for decades, you got to be a god damn idiot to equate ICE operating under Dems compared to Trump where ICE NOW HAS A BUDGET LARGER THAN THE MARINES, IS COMPLETELY EXEMPT FROM ANY LEGAL ACTION BECAUSE TRUMP HAS THROWN OUT THE CONSTITUTION, RAMPIDLY BUILT CONCENTRATION CAMPS AT A RECORD PASTETHAT ARE MORE RESTRICTED TO THE PUBLIC THAN EVER, AND NOW ARE MASS ARRESTING LEGAL IMMIGRANTS AND CITIZENS ALIKE.
All while the rule of law has been entirely abandoned.
It was bad for immigrants before, it's actual Hell for everyone now.
Not to mention it's gotten so much worse that you can actually observe it on national economic data.
I think any marginalized community would prefer having the wiggle room of being able to exist and organize under hollow virtue signals than ACTIVE AND RAPIDLY EXPANDING GENOCIDE.
Call me crazy, but one seems a bit better than the other.
Completely avoiding the point. Are you playing stupid or is this just how you are?
REPUBLICANS BANNED ABORTION
REPUBLICANS WANT TO BAN CONTRACEPTIVES
Dems, believe it or not, fucking didn't.
The only people you are helping by spreading this "both sides" BULLSHIT is the fascists. Take Trump's tiny cock out of your mouth and smell the shit around you.
The same can be said between Trump's first term and Biden' presidency. The level of funding and militancy isn't a function of R vs D, but a function of time as they because increasingly less cost effective and require increasing force to attempt to maintain/increase the level of eliminations.
You're delusional if you believe in the "rule of law", that's never been how the justice system has worked in the US.
Sorry you can no longer sleep through brunch and now have to face the realities that immigrants and others have been facing for decades.
... What? Can you clarify what you mean by this and what data? This feels like Facebook level finger pointing and not based on any actual data or proper analysis, but I'm happy to be proven wrong there.
Your "group" being spared genocide as a tool to influct genocide on others is not the "easy moral dilemma" you make it out to be.
The bipartisan nominated supreme court banned abortion during a democratic party trifecta.
Blaming the Republicans primarily for that is as asinine as blaming the Democrats primarily for the current government shutdown.
No? So they're just completely powerless and their votes were forced even though they really, really didn't want to?
The difference is who we say are fascists. Yes, the Republicans are fascist, but so are the Democrats.
If there's one thing we can agree on it's that the elephant in the room is absolutely covered in shit. However, I'm busy trying to take the fucking animals outside and am currently begging for you to please, please stop sucking donkey cock, realize the problems, and help.
Hey hypocrite.
Want to tell all the deported and kids in cages under Genocide Joe how that was much better?
Or that bombing brown people everywhere in the world, droning weddings or aiding genocide of Palestinians is better bcs it's under those Dems who have those famous 'democratic values' they're always crying about?
Just say it like it is, libs only care about themselves.
You all didn't give a fuck about what you did to the world since forever.
And you probably also don't give a fuck about trans people either.
The problem is now the fascism you supported has come home, and the libs don't like the taste of their own medicine.
That's ALL that bothering you.
Enjoy your karma, hope you get a lot of it.
"This is the problem with you Amerikkkan imperialists, you only care about your own people and don't give a shit about anyone outside your country"
~(a paraphrase of) an actual reply I got one time when I shared this sentiment
That would be me, and it is truth
There is, you can go back to reddit you crybaby
no thanks. i was banned there for saying the word nakba when talking about history.
“Both sides” idiocy.
The GOP is full of fascists, KKK, white supremacists, religious fundamentalists and anti-science pieces of shit. There is no way to redeem them.
The Democrats are a mixture of economic conservative socialists liberals, and socialists. There is a chance to fix it.
The socialists are the minority because the economic conservatives are corrupt and very well funded by billionaire Democrats and Republicans making them an effective controlled opposition.
There are no socialists in any position of power in the democratic party, you are delusional
People that believe in socialism are socialists. They don’t have to label themselves that way.
Americans are so brainwashed to be afraid of certain labels that they will do everything that the label is but will still claim that the label is bad.
People that believe in socialism are not given positions of power by the democratic party
I agree.
They have to win elections and they have to fight from within. AOC and the squad have been dealing with that since day one.
That’s my point. People that actually believe in fighting corruption can win elections in the Democratic Party. We need more people around the country to primary the centrists everywhere and work hard for the people.
I think It is hard for elections to push any reform. And that is for countries with actual democracy.
Socialism can only be achieved by non democratic methods
We already have socialism in the US. We have a mixed system. The issue is how mixed we want it to be and what specific policies would be the most effective at improving the lives of Americans.
Examples- Social Security, Medicare, Infrastructure, Fire protection, Police, national parks
Yes exactly! Socialism is when government does stuff, anarchism is when it does nothing, fascism is when he does but shouting and communism is when we do it all together holding hands.
Wait everyone! Don't you see? If we join the Nazis we can change them from within!
All I see is goofy smug trolling and zero solutions. Give us some solutions.
Here's one: study insurgencies that managed to hold off and/or beat the US and get ready to apply those tactics because that time is coming. Best get to networking too.
Death to USA.
There are no people who believe in socialism in any positions of post in the democratic party.
Genocide denier
So much focus on the lever that nobody is trying to derail or cut power to the trolly
This.
Well I voted for it to be green
This thread is being targeted by a lot of no-content "correct the record" fediverse accounts, upvoting pro-genocide US democratic party and Israeli talking points. Please report them so we can ban them ASAP.
Thank you to all the posters below doing great work debunking them.
"YOURE A BOT!!!!"
Some mf whose only posts are US corporate news and comments are 95% spreading the reddit lib bullet points
Your opinion is not shared by all, which should be obvious.
Ah, but the great thing about Communist jokes is that everyone gets them.
I'm here for the comments 🍿
Ok then, what should people do? Easy to criticize, but hard to find answers.
Edit: I'll stick to what actually works: punch a nazi.
Join PSL and DSA and do not vote until they follow through with demands, both sides continue genocide and war on a grand scale
This does nothing but help the GOP, who are openly bragging about installing a dictator.
This assumes the USA is a democracy at the federal level. Where votes by people matter.
Many states use election machines, owned by oligarchs, whose operations are a closed book and are not regulated. Coincidentally those states, both red and blue, fail tests approved by the United Nations to detect tampering of votes.
Those states make the other states, that actually pass the tests, irrelevant.
What makes democracy, in the USA, unable to curb the even the very gross problems today is not the people doing the cheating.
But it is the people who refuse to call the cheating out (by addressing the real issues), and more important the majority of citizens who absolutely do not see this as a problem. It’s only when this is addressed can the actual issues of a real democracy be looked at.
Even then, real reform is hard to do in a democracy. Especially one so large and out of control as the nation we see now. So any reform has to be not using the ballot box.
A boycott actually could help.
They do not care if you do not vote. Actually getting you not to vote is their stated goal and they have spent decades and millions of dollars specifically trying to make it harder for you to vote.
Republican efforts to suppress voting and the democrat “get out the vote” initiatives have much in common.
In some states voting matters, in most it does not. And federally it does not.
Seen in this context both efforts are a type of grifting and scam. No different than other political rabble rousing.
Pretensions USA is a democracy makes reform that much harder. And both parties do this well
And yet, still true.
¨Between 2009 and 2016, the Barack Obama administration oversaw the deporting of a record 2.4 million undocumented immigrants who had entered the United States, earning him the nickname "Deporter-In-Chief" by Janet Murguía, the president of National Council of La Raza. According to ICE data, about 40% of those deported by ICE in 2015 had no criminal conviction, while a majority of those convicted were guilty of minor charges. Statistics of record deportations were partly due to a change in how deportations were counted that began during the Bush administration and continued under the Obama administration.¨.
Guys you need to understand that Americans are only capable to see what is front of them. If happens in front of them is nasty stuff but if is under the radar? Is alright (Unless is a evil foreign country, they don't need to see anything to believe they are evil)
We have three mainstream parties. Works with that too.
You don't give a shit about anyone but yourself
Yeah! Let's all vote mauve! That's an option right? Teal? Aquamarine? So many choices!
In Poland last election saw 17 parties and 43 independents in sejm, but all of them are neoliberal fash ghouls.
Furthermore: how many different parties are in the EU? How many EU countries are rising GDP expenditure in military to 5%? Democracy under capitalism is an illusion
Kinda crazy how democrats now are just like: "Yeah, I eat a plate of shit. I don't like it, but they told me that was the only option. So I did it, I'm proud of it, and anyone else should be ashamed to not be eating shit like me."
And they're only pretending that they don't like the taste.
It's kind of funny, that democrats would rather eat bug infested cereals over a shit sandwich, when they could also push for cereals to be actually clean.
Tells you a lot about those people.
If you make me eat shit or cockroaches, I'd rather leave, thanks.
Nah it is more like. We all have been eating shit but majority thought it is steak. Lets all eat super mega shit so that majority will start to recognize.
not everyone wants to me a Marxist
The fact that there's no discernible difference between the parties (or, worse, that Trump rhetorically can outflank Dems from the popular left) should cause Democrats to soul-search and come back with a better political strategy. Instead, we just get this dogmatic insistence that Liz Cheney and Michael Bloomberg are better options than Donald Trump, so you have to go pound pavement in the 100° weather knocking doors, begging friends and neighbors over the phone, and dipping into your kids' college funds to "donate till it hurts" in an effort to get them elected.
It clearly is not. That's the fucking problem. Telling people "go eat dogshit because its tastier than horseshit" and then bitching when your shit stand can't break even is the root of the problem.
Time and time and time again, liberal Democrats run away from the popular candidates in favor of the candidates that can raise the most money. Time and time and time again, these candidates lose to Republicans who are raising money from the exact same evil assholes.
And when we finally fucking see a populist start winning in a bright blue city like NYC, you get the liberal media leadership saying this shit on national television.
It's Birtherism all over again.
Obviously they're different. One's got a big "D" next to her name and climbed into her California Senate seat through Jerry Brown's bed sheets. The other one was a billionaire mega-donor to Hillary Clinton's Senatorial and Presidential Primary campaigns, and hung out with her husband on trips down to Epstein Island. Also he became a Republican a few weeks after Obama won the Presidency.
What you're doing is called "Denialism". You don't want to accept that Donald Trump was a staunch friend, financial supporter, and NYC powerbroker working on behalf of the Democratic Party for decades. So instead of facing this reality and what it means about the state of the party, you're going to cover your ears and pretend it didn't happen.
As she seemed intent on continuing the policies of the prior administrations, the answer is clearly "Yes". We had gestapo doing their dirty work all through the American Southwest going back to the Polk Administration. Bush created ICE, Obama expanded ICE, Trump expanded ICE, Biden expanded ICE, and Kamala Harris campaigned on a platform of anti-immigration that would require her to expand ICE.
Would we have goons like Steven Miller and Curtis Yarvin ranting about unitary executives and divine right of kings under a Harris Administration? Absolutely. Would they be operating in friendly Republican gubernatorial cabinets and think tanks and Congressional offices? Absolutely. Would they be setting national policy through the courts and the legislature and red state executive offices? Absolutely. If Republicans still commanded Congress, would they be authoring national policy that President Harris eventually signed into law? Abso-fucking-lutely.
Would Larry Ellison and Bob Iger and Satya Nadella be kicking back tens of millions of dollars to Republican allies via "settlements"? Would Citadel and JP Morgan be bribing politicians with large purchases of shitcoins to get around campaign contribution limits and other anti-corruption laws? 100% guaranteed. They were doing this shit before Trump took office. Why would they stop now?
Your problem isn't that these fascist policies exist. Your problem is that they've breached "containment" in Red States. Now it's not just a Texas problem or a Florida problem. Its an Everybody problem. You can't just ignore the fascism anymore. You can't say "Those fuckers down south are getting what they deserve".
Now you're down in the shit here with the rest of us. Welcome to hell, asshole.
Brother, you've got a worse case of brain worms than some Kennedys I could name.
Both are shit sandwiches. Trying to use analogy to obfuscate willing participation in genocide, perpetuation of imperialism, brutalization of immigrants, etc doesn't actually erase material reality.
Organize.
Libs are almost pathologically reliant on analogies even in the simplest of scenarios because talking about things as they really are is often indefensible and would necessitate saying the most ghoulish and monstrous shit
Yep, it's all smoke and mirrors.
Yup, they’re both the same thing, as long as you ignore the evidence of your eyes, ears and heart.
Jesus Christ it’s like you’ve never hear the expression that the perfect is the enemy of the good.
It's almost like 2 genocidal fascists can't be considered "good" to begin with.
It’s almost like ignoring everything about a person except 1 aspect of them makes you too ignorant to talk about it.
Go back to Reddit where your lack of critical thinking skills will help you fit in.
I'm not ignoring everything except one aspect, though. Both are genocidal, and both serve the interests of the US Empire above all-else, and as such they share far more in common than not. I'm not ignorant, and you can take your faux-superiority back. I've been here far longer than you have, telling me to go back to Reddit doesn't make any sense. I'm a communist, the devs are communists, and a lot of communists are on Lemmy after various subreddits like r/GenZedong, r/TheDeprogram, and r/ChapoTrapHouse got banned. What I say fits in here.
Hardly. Democrats made it clear that they care about netanyahu's political career above all else.
The purpose of supporting Israel is so that it secures US interests in the region.
I’m not pretending America is the best country, or Harris would be the best for the world.
I have 0 interest in Defending her, but claiming they’re the same with a straight face is fucking laughable. America would be a better country internally and on the global stage with her in charge, by any metric that isn’t “burn all capitalism down”.
Here’s an easy one - would Harris have sent a citizen to CECOT without a trial? Obviously not, because she’s demonstrably different from Trump, like any 3 year old could determine.
The US Empire is the world's worst country. It's the biggest exporter of genocide and terror, and the world's biggest plunderer. Harris would maintain that exact same brutal system, domestically and internationally. It's not hard to be better than them. Yes, Harris would send people to CECOT without trial, every imperialist president has done acts like that.
Chill out with the calling everyone to your left a child or a Russian bot, etc. It's the peak of liberalism.
She sent a transwoman to mens prison, who got raped and joked about it.
You're pathetically trying to defend this evil ghoul:
Under her jurisdiction, in "progressive" San Francisco, 56% of all inmates in SF jails were black, along with 40% of all arrests (Only 5.8% of the population is black). Ignores police brutality, protected 14 of her officers who were caught sending extremely racist text messages. Oversaw San Francisco’s felony conviction rate rising from 52% to 67% in only 3 years.
And as cherry on the cake fully complicit in a horrible genocide, and you want to claim she would hypothetically be better in the future? LOL
You really disgust me. You are not better but worse.
It's the hypocrisy that bothers me most, at least one side has the balls to say they're fascists.
Unlike you cowardly worms pretending to be good while being absolute scum.
Hope you all get slow cancer.
No one's buying that democrats are "the good" anymore. They're not even "the adequate."
You're not "forced" to do anything.
There are 3rd parties as always. You can find reasons and excuses not to vote for them but that's all on you.
Glad you ended up with Trump.
Fascists and fascist-lite voters deserve it.
The problem here is structural. For president especially a 3rd party candidate is nothing more than a spoiler. It’s less so if they can win for the house or senate. I would whole heartedly agree with you if the Us had a parliamentary or ranked choice. But we don’t and until we do; with the demo crates it’s a slightly more likely, then just vote for the least fascist that has a chance to win. Use your 3rd party vote in the primaries.
The US Empire will never pass ranked choice voting in a manner that allows for systemic change. The point of the political system is to perpetuate the economic system, and fixing the problems with society requires advancing to socialism and leaving capitalism behind.
And there we go with the excuses.
In non-banana republics with a normal political landscape and populations with spines there have been parties and candidates scoring 1-2 percent, then 10, then 60. Or the other way.
That's how elections work, and nobody of those initial 1-2% voters gave up.
Since outside the US, nobody propagates that defeatist BS.
But OC, this election is “the most important election in history and in our lifetime” so now is not the time to rdo such crazy things as not vote for a duopoly you supposedly don't like but have since the beginning of your miserable country.
You have only yourself to blame and deserve zero sympathy.
On the contrary.
You're like an arsonist that constantly burns houses and now cries because he managed to set his own home on fire.
Well burn baby burn.
What a juvenile take that doesn’t take into account reality at all. From Reddit are you? Go back.
right simpleton.
Go back to your interpretative dance with kibbutz Bernie
Democrats needed to do more to differentiate themselves. But they're still stuck in 1992 and think that if they just triangulate with fascists and treat their own base as hostages, that they're entitled to victory.
Karl Marx said:
What that means in the American system is we vote against liberals in the primaries, and we vote for them against the fascists. America doesn't have ranked choice voting, but voting socialist in the primaries and left (out of the two candidates presented) in the generals is the closest approximation. This is the Karl Marx approved strategy, as you can see from his speech to the Communist League.
Now let's talk about this meme. It's fake news. There was no Alligator Auschwitz under the Democrats. Guantanamo Bay wasn't a concentration camp for immigrants under the Democrats. I submit that the Democrats are at least 1% better than the Republicans, and that this proves the meme is fake news. And if anyone replies to this comment and says well 1% isn't good enough, I'm going to accuse you of moving the goalposts, because this meme says colour is the only difference. The meme doesn't say 1% less people get run over by the trolley, and I think there are at least 1% fewer state caused deaths under the Democrats.
The democrats are also funding this genocide:
The democrats expanded these immigrant prison camps. Some stats from the Obama era:
The democrats didn't close their torture camp in Cuba either.
If you go to university and do any kind of field that involves essay writing, you'll learn to use a thesis statement to summarise your argument so people know what you're arguing for. You've provided some evidence, but it's entirely unclear what your position is in this conversation other than "the democrats do bad things sometimes". If your entire position is "the democrats do bad things sometimes", then great job! We're all very proud of you for proving the democrats do bad things sometimes. Now go do your fucking job developing the Lemmy software, because this software is full of issues and the grownups are talking about important issues that actually have a point.
Leaving this comment up to show the titanic levels of entitlement and arrogance from the anti-communist crowd.
Even open source devs only exist to do free labor for them, we're not people to them.
How dare you develop software which won't automatically ban communists
You can't just state something as fact and not show your work. You are making a claim it's up to you to support it. You can't just go around saying "I'm right unless you prove the negative".
You have not placed any goalposts to begin with, what is your definition of "better"? By what metric are you using? What do you mean by "under the Democrats"?
How about we define "better" as "death rate per capita within immigration detention centers"? And "under the Democrats/Republicans" as "who holds the executive branch"? We should see an increase during the Bush years, when ICE was first created, a decrease during the Obama years, followed by an increase during Trump's first term, decrease during Biden, and increase under Trump's second term right?
Is that what happened?
If you don't like my attempt at making your claim falsifiable, which I suspect you won't; especially when you see the results, feel free to redefine your lose language into something else rigid and falsifiable. Set those goalposts.
More like...
The lever can reduce the speed of the trolley depending on which way you turn it, but regardless the trolley will gradually accelerate either way.
Now that's some aggressive debateme
Okay, I'll bite. Let's fight.
Harris would be worse. Reasons:
bluemaga is more pro genocide when dem is prez.
Separating europe from usa is more likely when trump is prez. (euro rulers hate him somehow, even though he's just as dumb and evil as them)
yes she prosecuted and jailed so many innocent innocent kids in her past, and then continued under her vice presidency with her decisions and under direct administration to get so many people raped and genocided. so is your question, did we prefer to vote to get little raped rather than super raped? some would argue the latter because it'd cause a crisis to the system that would get the people to wake up and do something about it while little rape would be just as painful and last forever without change.
so remimd me, do you prefer little rape and prosection for your immediate family only that lasts forever without any hope or anyone fighting for you? or would you rather all your city get raped and prosecuted but with hundrends of millions of people nationwide and globally fighting the system to end it and free you?
You win! How should I have handled the 2024 election differently to save my country, they who have all the answers?
Also, please explain, when my choices were ONLY a little rape and a lot of rape how stamping my feet and loudly explaining that rape is bad would accomplish…. What?
so many people stamping their feet and loudly explaining that rape is bad is what would help bring this raping system down
Cause, broadly speaking, both parties are very similar. Both sit way to the right of the main parties in most countries.
Do I need to pull up the Webster definitions of similar and same for you?
You can do what you like, what I wouldn’t bother do is pointing out the difference in the two main USA political parties, cause there’s no point. One does fascism and mistreats the working class with a smile, one does it with an angry face.
Counting felonies under the law of evil? Makes sense for a harris (cop) supporter.
ACAB
ACAB 100%.
Harris is not my first, second, or 100th choice. She’s demonstrably better than Temu Hitler though.
Just tell me this first, would a casually fascist president really make you feel that much better than an overtly fascist one?
It’s something I’m really struggling to get my head round…cause I can’t believe how far right USA parties are compared to U.K. ones….and we are fucked.
“Just let me avoid answering your question and… “ No. They’re demonstrably not the same, as evidenced by you inability to answer the question. Also basic common sense.
No, I don’t think Harris would have ICE roaming the streets.
But then I don’t see the point in differentiating between casual and overt fascism. Both are way to the right of me.
I’ll ask again…are you ok with casual fascism?
How out of touch do you have to be.
We get 30 mana for every time we rile up a lib, and 1 dragonscale if the lib gets steam coming out of the ears.
lol fascist
Tell your handlers to give you a different script for Lemmy than the one they gave you for reddit, read the room
Most intelligible lib
Terminally online leftist type shit
If you have to vote between a candidate who wants to build 5 concentration camps and another candidate who wants to build one. You vote for the candidate that only wants to build only one concentration camp. Sure, both candidates are really bad, but one is considerably worse.
Therefore, we must still vote for the lesser of two evils. Not voting at all because both sides bad is how democracy dies, especially when democracy itself is under attack right now.
Well it's a good thing that we didn't have that binary choice then. My ballot had a few options, some of them even opposing concentration camps, so I got to vote against them.
I would vote a third party if it doesn't just help the right win. If only we had ranked choice voting instead of the electrol college, then we could crub the 2 party system. Unfortunately, in the US, it's either red team or blue team because until you can change the hearts and minds of millions of people, then it's always going to be one of them.
You're admitting to being one of the millions of people that votes and therefore legitimises the construction of concentration camps.
You're a fascist.
I mean, I believe nixus was talking about voting third party, which here in America is just another way of abstaining to vote. The concentration camp example was just to point out that to say one bad candidate against an objectively worse candidate doesn't automatically mean they're both equally as bad. I regret using concentration camps as an example though. Perhaps a better example would be if you had the choice of voting for either Benito Mussolini or Bill Clinton. Both candidates are bad, but if I vote for one of them, am I in the wrong to make sure Mussolini doesn't win by voting for Bill Clinton?
The concentration camps are a perfect example. No one's saying both sides are the exact same. They're saying they both serve US imperialism. Case and point: one side wants 5 concentration camps, the other thinks that's a little too much and we should settle for 1.
If you want to build concentration camps you're a fascist. If you're okay with a party wanting to build concentration camps or can look past it you're a fascist. You wouldn't accept someone in the 1930s saying "yeah what the nazis are doing with the Jews is bad but have you seen their treatment of animals? I'll vote for them but I'm no Nazi."
So, what do you suggest I do then as an alternative to voting in this scenario? I suppose I could spill the blood of the politicians that want to build concentration camps, but once again unless I change the minds of millions of people and start a full blown civil war, then the bloodshed will be pointless. I could also move away from America, but that's assuming I could even afford to do that let alone be able to do it legally. The only power I have as an American citizen as of now is to vote. That's the only power I have. Protesting will eventually just get me arrested or murdered once Trump completes his power grab.
You have more power than just voting every 4 years lmao. Get organised and start interacting with like minded people and get other people on your side. Every 4 years there's 1540 days where you could be fighting fascism and you're only doing it for 1.
So you support China in their liberation of Tibet from feudal serfdom? You support the Soviet Union destroying Nazism despite the excesses made in the gulag years? Or do you only extend this courtesy to capitalist imperialist regimes?
Obviously not. I don't support building concentration camps in general, and China is a bad example since there's no opposing party in Chinq. Admittedly, the example I gave was a bit on the extreme side. Regardless, I still disagree that if both sides are bad then they automatically are equalivent and thus voting is pointless as the meme seems to imply.
If Harris had won the 2024 election, do you honestly think she would be mass deporting immigrants without a trial, starting a trade war with China, attempt to cut funding for FEMA, etc? Sure, I'll give you that she would have been content with the genocide in Gaza and would have been propping up the capitalist status quo. However, is that truly equilvent to what Trump has done in just his first year of his second term?
Of course, look at her predecessor. Obama massively increased ICE, deportations, and did a pivot to asia.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the senate controlled by the right? Wasn't it them that pushed for mass deportations?
I suppose you do have a point though, Harris wouldn't need to be the only one who wins to make an actual difference, even if she would have just upheld the status quo that led to the rise in fascism. Still would have preferred that over what Trump is doing atm
Your willingness to only engage in lesser-evilism with western genocidal regimes is very telling.
I think that's a very reductionist opinion that ignores @[email protected] trying to honestly interact with you.
Stop being a prick, it doesn't get you anywhere.
Sadly, western genocide will happen REGARDLESS of who I vote for, yeah. So, what do you propose I do about it other than protest and likely get arrested by ICE in a couple years for it? Attempt to sail aid to the people in Gaza and die along with them? I suppose it would preferable to get shot and die than live in a fascist America where my friends and family have to suffer, not to undermine what Gaza is going through though.
I suggest you don't engage in lesser evilism with the west if you're not willing to do with with geopolitics. Or if you're willing to do it, then supoort China in the international geopolitics.
The US is not and has never been a democracy
Oh, you're right. My mistake. I guess I'll just stop voting or even protesting then :/
Lol cry about it