Hail Corporate!
I respect people's right to use apple products, but please stop asserting "privacy", big corps doesn't give a shit.
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I respect people's right to use apple products, but please stop asserting "privacy", big corps doesn't give a shit.
I hate the term sideloading. It's a made-up propaganda word to make it seem scary or wrong to install software on your device. All in the name of corporate profits.
Yea, who are google and apple to tell us what to do with OUR devices that WE OWN anyways?
I will never buy a smartphone(or a computer) that I can't replace the stock OS on, because the transaction for me and the device maker should end when I buy their device, period.
The entire business model of selling me a device only to then extract the maximum possible amount of data points, sell that data to fuck-knows-who(compromising my privacy, and possibly safety), and maximizing targeted ads to attempt to manipulate me is beyond absurd.
Ironically I own a Google device, but only to use an operating system that respects me and my choices. If Google was just providing device trees for their new phones...
Due to our favourite kind of software (banking apps) I am unable to use another kind of operating system at this point.
Also I don't sideload. I install software on a computer that I own, because I paid actual money for it.
GraphenenOs?
Exactly.
It's like "jaywalking" oooh oh no don't "jay" walk, don't "side" load; conform to our business machines! Your natural existence and free movements are an inconvenience to us therefore you have to change.
Or whatever bullshit--however they couch it.
Very good point!
Both cars and smartphones are products that actively exploit us, increasingly lock themselves down with black box hardware and software, and have societal dependence practically enforced by law at this point.
I want a future where they're cool again, and not 100% necessary for day to day existence.
"Warning: If you unlock your phone, it might explode or you might become a terrorist. Also we won't pay your money back even if there is faulty hardware because there is non zero chance you might have caused it while unlocking"
I like the term sideloading. It describes an installation method we don't otherwise have a word for.
I'm loading a software package from the side -- from a system running parallel to the target system.
I do hate the use of the term to try to demonize a completely standard practice. Like when using wget to request files from a fileserver was described as hacking.
Apple does give a shit about privacy… in the same way that companies care about gay pride. Right now privacy is still a selling point for Apple compared to other companies. This is why they are still so loud about on device AI and pretty much silent when any of their features require cloud processing. But am under no illusions that will remain the case forever.
As far as “dumb phones” are concerned; they don’t exist anymore. It’s still a device with an OS, GPS (as required by the law that created the Amber Alert here in the US), and an Internet connection, that makes calls using VoLTE or similar. Most of the ones you can buy today run things like KaiOS which has an App Store and comes with Google Maps preinstalled.
If you want real privacy you need to disconnect from the Internet which pretty much means no phones at all now that everything is VoIP.
Apple has 2x very publicly resisted government demands for user data and campaigned against laws to institute backdoors into their software and services. They’re not perfect by any means but they are by far a lesser evil.
A fully capable Linux phone is the dream, but most people aren’t going to use one. For the majority of people, I would recommend the company that refused to listen to the US and EU about weakening the security of their products over the one with the business model of relying on advertising to you and selling your data.
And they have proven if the government makes a law requiring access they'll do it. They have done it for China and Russia.
That’s literally any company though. If you want to legally operate in a certain country, you need to abide by the country’s laws. Sure, pirate FOSS projects could exist. But that’s not the kind of shit that will be sold in retail, because it would literally be illegal to sell.
This is like complaining that Japanese phones can’t disable the camera shutter sound. It’s because Japan regulated the shutter sound, because upskirting was a major issue. So phones legally sold in Japan are required to have the shutter sound permanently set at a high volume, even when the ringer is silenced. That isn’t the phone maker’s fault.
Apple campaigned against regulation like what you’re complaining about. It isn’t Apple’s fault that the regulation was passed anyways.
Well yeah they kinda have to at that point in order to continue conducting business in that country. What about this is specific to Apple?
They just do that for brand optics. Because researchers found the apple privacy settings off/on made no difference to the packet of info sent to apple. Their privacy is a facade.
The issue in one of the cases (San Bernardino) had nothing to do with iCloud data, and everything to do with the data on the device itself. The FBI request was a backdoor into the device. Apple (rightly) refused to add a backdoor to access the phone.
You are referencing data that goes to Apple’s iCloud servers, which Apple was happy to provide because they held the encryption keys. Since then, they have enabled an E2E encryption feature for iCloud data.
I am happy to discuss Apple’s shortcomings, but let’s be clear on which ones we’re discussing
Its the don't track privacy type settings where you opt out, research found it was a toggle button that did nothing.
They only tout privacy to gain market, they would sell us out for a dollar
Is this separate from Advanced Data Protection, which is E2E encrypted data on iCloud?
“Don’t track privacy type settings” isn’t very descriptive, so apologies if I’m sounding any way I’m just trying to be clear about what the complaint here is.
And to be clear, is this a privacy concern exclusive to Apple?
Totally unrelated to the E2E, I will have to search for it. It was a year or two ago. Apple claimed turning off the data collection kept your use private to you, but was just a lie, they collected all your data anyway.
And yes, its an IPhone setting not an android setting. Google is another issue.
Ok please let me know when you have more information I am very interested to know.
I can believe this. Apple loves to talk big about privacy but their source for it is "trust me bro."
Was giving literal gold to Donald Trump part of that campaign to save the users?
No that was Tim Apple kissing the ring to minimize tariffs. And it worked.
Indeed.
They also immediately folded in China after being given the ultimatum of comply or die.
All it would take is Trump to give the same ultimatum...
Yeah I would expect the same of any company. They have to comply with the laws of the country they do business in. This same requirement compelled them to finally add USB-C to iPhones and allow alternate app stores.
I wouldn’t blame Google for doing the same, so I’m not going to blame Apple for it either. Do you actually expect any company their size to do any different?
To the extent they’re legally able to, Apple has absolutely resisted compromising their device security features to aid law enforcement.
Good thing Trump’s distracted by gold baubles.
You’re saying the same thing as the top of the thread. All of this is for now. At some point it could be advantageous for Apple to stop resisting US demands. It is important to understand and prepare for that while also accepting, for now, Apple provides the most corporate privacy of the corporate privacy options in the US.
The three of us are in agreement.
Mostly agree except about disconnecting from the internet, classic SMS/voice calls aren't any more private than VoIP.
Your best bet for location privacy is E2E encrypted services like Signal over wifi, plus MAC randomization and a VPN on untrusted networks. I'd say GrapheneOS is good enough for most people, but mobile Linux has also come a long way.
Encryption doesn’t stop them from knowing what tower you are attached to. Simply having a phone on you even with the GPS and WiFi off (or with the newer phones even the whole phone off) would still be enough to get your location to within a few hundred feet. The original iPhone used triangulation exclusively for location.
Honestly haven't heard that one. I've only heard "I used android for freedom. If android is becoming a shitty apple, I'll just use the better apple"
That's sort of where I'm at right now to be honest. Google has removed or plan to remove basically everything that gave Android an edge over iOS. Meanwhile Apple, for all their flaws, has actually put out some pretty compelling offerings with the iPhone 17 line both hardware- and software-wise, and has made meaningful improvements in the realm of repairability and side-loading, albeit under regulatory pressure. At this point, it's looking like going to be harder than I'd like to choose between the two when I go to replace my phone in 3-5 years - provided both companies stay on their current trajectories.
Here’s how I think about it:
Google’s business model involves advertising to you, tracking your activity, mining your data, and selling that information to other entities while also using it to advertise to you more. It’s their main profit-driver. You are the product.
Apple’s business model is to sell you the hardware, give you the software and make it (mostly) depend on the services to keep you locked in. You (the user) are not the product, their devices and services are.
Of the two, which is the lesser evil?
Normies are not going to fully convert to Linux phones and open-source software any time soon. In the meantime as far as privacy is concerned, Apple can do much worse and Google can do much better.
Apple's transitioning to a services based company, which includes ad tech. They're better than Google only for now. The enshittification of their OS's has been ongoing, and will only get worse. macOS has had so many super user features removed, and so many iOS walled-garden regressions added.
I’m not going to argue this point, but am more interested in discussing issues they currently have than issues we think they’ll have eventually. If we’re gonna vilify a company let’s make sure we’re doing it based on stuff that’s actually happened so we know they deserve it.
To be fair, a lot of those features have been getting added back, a lot of walled-garden regressions removed as well. I guess this part is more subjective and based on your workflow. The feature churn itself is the only true constant.
That's been my reason to switch. When Android 12 removed or hid a lot of the functionality and customization that I used daily on my Pixel 4a5g, I switched to an iPhone. It's a shame I had to sell back my iphone 14 pro to my provider (due to the plan I had chosen), otherwise I'd have kept that one, but I'm currently running the 16 Pro, and intend to keep that for another 4 or 5 years.
There is no word called sideloding it's called installing software
"Sideloading" means "defeating a walled garden to install software"
Comparatively they are better. Its a duopoly in terms of mobile OSs and one is made by a company who mines data and sells ads as its core. The other sells hardware and subscriptions.
I use linux and I wish for a full featured marketable linux phone someday that can compete but with privacy they absolutely beat google.
I have never owned an iphone amd I am currently debating on getting a pixel to move to gOS.
I'm all for linux, I miss the market before iPhone domination. Weird ass symbian phones, windows phones, nokia taco phones, there was all sorts of stuff. I wish we could have a market like that with lots of diverse phones that all run different operating systems. I also wish we could step away from app stores and we could just start building websites again, phones are fast enough now
The problem is not with Android its with Google But apparently android is from Google even though its open source. Sure, linux phones are nice but they are nowhere near stable.
The problem is we do everything with mobile phones now even banking and security is a big lead here The Banking apps may need to make sure each and every linux phones are secure and may not have any loopholes Which is tedious Even installing a custom rom can hinder the default security sometimes. If any problems arise neither linux phones nor banks can give any warranty As of now android is more secure and stable and theres a lot of time ahead of linux phones to succeed
Yeah I find it hilarious that anyone thinks apple cares about privacy. They clearly have been cultivating that image but it rings pretty hollow to me. They just chose something that would be easy to say they care about that an ad company clearly also doesn't care about.
They care about privacy as they consider themselves the owner of your data.
Like all of this is untrue? You can have you iPhone or whatever at to encrypt shit locally and Apple has no ownership of the data? This obviously comes with tradeoffs, but people are so effing uninformed and apparently riding the dick of google as hard as they can.
It's better than that. Encryption is always enabled for anything stored on icloud. Like you can't turn it off
Yes, but normally Apple has keys to that, you can enable further encryption, so you own your own keys. This has some additional considerations, but if you want to make is very very hard for anyone to access your data, that’s what you do. Or I guess get an android and load in to google cliud, I’m sure that will be fine!
I’m so so so so soooooooo over the what phone do you have debate, and now apparently we’ve entered a new one where people who seemingly don’t know anything are making trash memes. Joy.
Meanwhile the rest of the world is a burning pile of shit. Congrats, ‘dumb’ phone people and whoever else thinks they are hot shit. You’re not, and this is all pointless.
Apple has the keys though I less you use advanced data protection.
They have the keys for your account, yes. The data is another story if you turn on Advanced Data Protection. In that case, they could access your account but the data would be useless.
They do not have encryption keys or a backdoor (that we know of) for your physical device. So if you don’t use iCloud and adjust privacy settings you can stay reasonably private on an iPhone. At least more so than on Android.
Yeah, you can go with a Linux phone but forget about:
If you're already a luddite that's awesome, you're free to move to Linux phones. If you like modern tech and the convenience it gave us it will be really fucking sad to lose all of it because or corporate greed.
Agreed, but is a chicken and egg problem. People won't use Linux because the apps they want don't support it and apps won't support it because most people don't use Linux. Someone will have to cave in if we want to break this stupid proprietary duopoly.
The best way is freeing Android. Android should be the "Mobile Linux". What should happen is that EU should ensure that people are allowed to side load and unlock bootloaders and that all apps are compatible with alternative ROMs. All dependencies on google play services should simply be made illegal and all apps should be fully compatible with AOSP.
If we can't get this we will spend the next 10-15 years in mobile dark ages. Mobile Linux may never get enough tracking to be supported the way desktop Linux is.
I don’t think it’ll play out that way. Manufacturers aren’t going to ditch Google. Play Store and Google certification are too valuable for them. And for small developers, most of them rely on Google’s infrastructure. If the EU decides to take that away, only big players with resources could handle their own systems, which ironically makes things less open because indies get squeezed out.
If we skip the Play Services part, the EU might push for sideloading and more openness, but realistically Play Services will remain dominant simply because it’s the easiest and most convenient option for developers. So we’ll probably end up with a halfway solution: technically more open, but practically still dependent on Google.
If we really want change, proper GNU/Linux phones need to catch up or at least run Android apps (APKs) reliably. That alone would solve 70% of the problem. The remaining 30% comes down to infrastructure and right now Google Play Services is just too polished and convenient (especially for indies who don’t care about FOSS ideals) for devs to walk away from.
If legislation is made such that eg.: in the EU phones can not be registered in the cellular network unless they are open to both normal installation of apps (sIdElOaDiNg) and being able to fully install or remove Google Services, then Google will have to deal with who would want to work and pay to get a certification that effectively blocks you from selling and operating in one or more continents.
And such legislation would be not without precedent: open phones and custom ROMs are already suffering from it.
What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
I will admit I'm ignorant here. What do companies use Google Play Services for? I developed some Android app and I never had to rely on Google. I just used F-Droid. Other than play store for distribution, which services provided by Google would be so hard to replace?
Location services, geofencing, connectivity sign in, banking services... basically the walls of the garden
Honestly that's not a chicken-and-egg problem. Only one party of the two in this example has the power to create or change apps, whereas people in this example, even if they would use Linux, they effectively are prevented from.
The "someone" who has to cave in is obvious.
I used to run an LTE-enabled nettop instead of a phone during the app-only craze, can't get any worse than that. Recently removed bank apps, taxi, delivery, maps, youtube, email and all social media apps off my phone in favour of using websites instead. They're still a bit of an afterthought compared to apps so the experience is a bit clunky, but the option is available for most things nowadays.
Some things yes. I don't have any social media apps (not even lemmy) or YT but my car charger requires an app, my AC has an app I use from time to time, my Garmin GPS has an app, I have to use MS Authenticator at work, my car has an app and Android Auto and 90% of public car charges require an app. None of this has website alternative. Can I live without them? Well, not without work obviously and where I live electric car infrastructure is so tied to mobile phones I'm seriously considering just giving up and going back to a normal car.
Most of this i don't use my phone for anyway. I'll use my current android phone for the rest, if needed.
Still going to wait and see if the Eu makes a move, but i won't go back to fascist enabling corps.
Yeah, sadly I don't see a way around it other than having spare Android/iOS phone.
For some time GrapheneOS should work just fine but when Google kills it we're fucked.
Don't they have functioning Android app support now?
In theory yes but most non open source apps require google play services. Hard to tell how long those will work with waydroid and similar. Also running android apps this ways destroys battery apparently.
Does anyone remember r/hailcorporate and its brief moment of fame before the popular subs banned mention of it and its own mods started running a crypto scam?
It was annoying. Couldn't mention any brand name in any context without getting an "/r/hailcorporate" comment.
I liked that part of it anyway
Google: app developers use the zygote loading system to create an everpresent preloaded bedroom on your device with access to whatever they want in sensor hardware access and monitoring. It is essentially like a full equivalent computer user in parallel. This is how it just works while the (exploited-mark) human user is ignorant about operating systems, networking, and security. They have full equivalent access because you do not understand the details. Again these are full equivalent users. They are likely intimately preset with you more than any other partner... If they are there for stalkerware digital slavery, to sell your digital person for exploitation and manipulation, such a transaction is much like prostitution. The motivations of developers that are not whoring people out are mostly benevolent, altruistic, or taking a stand to support liberal democratic freedom. So in essence google is a digital slaver running a loose coalition of independent developer pimps that collectively enslave your digital person for manipulation and exploitation.
Apple: is a central fascist neo feudal lord that centralizes the exploitation and slavery under a single market forum where they directly manipulate and extort every developer and slave. Apple is the stalkerware data salver selling the exact same data to manipulate and extort users just like google.
The difference has been an open market free for all of privateer piracy raiding the coast of Africa to fuel the Southern plantations and flying the Jolly Roger of google, versus the matrix growing humans in a vast vat field with the Jolly Roger of Apple on the side of the buildings. To call one different than the other in terms of privacy is a joke as sour as US politics represents a balanced spectrum of interests. It is all stalkerware data slavery ownership of a part of an individual's physical person for exploitation and manipulation. Open Source software is the last bastion fortress of real citizens in a democracy fighting off zombie pirates flying a Jolly Roger. This is a choice between Apple vanishing people and Google abducting them from the fortress.
ROMs are the red pill, a revolver, and a place to stay for fightimg for freedom from the 21st century digital slavery phase of neo fascism, and its coming total war 3.
It's really funny seeing people who defend capitalism trying to avoid capitalism problems with individual actions instead of organizing themselves and fighting for the interest of their own class
Thia guy i know to a tee. He'll defend capitalism to the death and say how the left is evil and anarchy capitalism is the only way.
Idiot. And he pitches about everything in life capitalism causes. I point this out and he says well yeah but thats just bad capitalism not good capitalism. Also he loves fElon, so there's that.
Idk what I'm gonna do if the F-Store stops working.
Yoink from github via Obtainium.
Also, obtainium can also yoink from gitlab, selfhisted forgejo, codeberg and also fdroid.
I'm so glad someone else is seeing this.
Watching people say "I'll just use an iphone because android is too locked down" really reinforces my opinion of the average person.
Listen. I’ll be the first to pirate and the first to ditch giving companies like Amazon or Google my money.
But I draw the line at my phone. I tried GrapheneOS and had so many issues with things like banking that it’s just not viable for most people.
I love my iPhone for what I use it for and it works as intended. I listened to yall and removed windows for Linux and that was a shit show too. Nvidia drivers ugh. WiFi just stopping etc. easier to use windows to load the one app of stream I use and do some dev work.
I understand. When my Win10 PC was approaching End Of Life, I switched to Linux instead of buying a new computer. I’m fairly familiar with Linux since all my servers are Debian, and it’s been great. I tried three distros and they all were unstable due to my hardware. When I asked what I should do, I was told I should buy a new computer that was compatible with Linux. ¯_(ツ)_/¯
I’m using Ubuntu now on that computer, and it’s more stable, but I’ve still had to use a boot drive to roll back TimeShift after a hard crash.
And this is my man issue. Time. Time is precious and I don’t want headaches where I don’t need them. That is phone and pc.
Sure I’ll make life harder and more expensive by not shopping at massive companies. Or not using Netflix or Disney so I have to shop elsewhere and build a media server, on Linux, but most people just want to turn on a pc open stream and play Factorio.
Honestly? Skill issue.
It takes some time and effort to get up to speed on community driven operating systems but it's a much happier life once you do.
I’m a software engineer mate. It’s not a skill issue, it’s a time issue. The last thing I want when I’ve finished debugging for clients is to come home and debug my own machine or phone.
Maybe it’s a young man’s game. I have the same issue with my media server, I was happy to sink a few weeks into setting it up but it fills me with dread that something goes down and I need to spend more time fixing things. But I’ll do it with piracy as I see the benefit of not giving money to streaming services.
Edit: all I want from this community is a little nuance in that Linux or Privacy centric phones are not for everybody and they should respect others peoples choices. I’d rather spend my time rock climbing and running these days than sat near a computer outside of work. Although it’s winter coming so I game more then.
I'm also a SWE and pretty old. I also spend time outside hiking and rock climbing.
I run Linux on all my machines aside from a couple macs but Linux is my daily driver.
It doesn't have to be a hobby.
Its been like 5+ years since I've run into a major problem that couldn't be resolved quickly. I have much more serious problems trying to use windows at this point.
If it's not a skill issue, it's a mindset issue.
To me, using an OS that isn't hostile and actively making itself worse for profit is worth the time investment.
It helps a lot to use popular, well supported distros like Mint or Fedora but even on Arch basically every problem I have is my own fault for breaking something.
I literally told you it’s a time issue.
Listen if that’s the hill you want to die on then crack on pal, but I’m just saying it’s not for everybody.
In the grand scheme of things I’ve more important things I can channel by hatred of the current world than on what Operating System I use. Every minute I spend debugging is a minute I’m not doing something else.
For what it’s worth it was Fedora that I tried and it sucked, as I said. The WiFi would just die randomly and even if it takes 5 mins to fix ive never had to do that on windows. It’s literally plug and play.
I respect where you're coming from, But the mentality of Linux users to say "skill issue" in these situations is the #1 reason why Linux isn't more adopted. Is it a skill issue on the user's end or is it a skill issue on the Linux developers' end? Maybe they should make more automatically functional out of the box software. Doesn't feel too nice to be told that does it?
Not everyone has time to become skilled in computing. Additionally, Linux users are so deep in the computing rabbit hole that they don't even appreciate how deep in it they really are. What strikes them as basic or fundamental is really confusing for a lot of people.
It is not acceptable to just blame the user and say that the problem is that the user is a fool. That could maybe be a reasonable standpoint if 99% of people were using the software without issue, but we all know that isn't the case with Linux.
Someone wants to boot up their computer and get on Wi-Fi and play games with their updated drivers. Windows provides that out of the box, without them needing to do anything. That is factually a better experience than needing to screw around reading a bunch of guides and forums and running commands that you don't understand for potentially multiple hours. Blaming that on the user just means that the users continue to have a bad experience. If that's the view the community wants to take, fine - But then don't complain when the majority of people don't want to use your thing.
Exactly this.
HeThey told me, a software engineer, it’s a skill issue. For me it’s a time issue. Time is precious, in fact my most precious asset and gone are my days of playing with operating systems. I just want to load steam and play Factorio.The other thing these people don’t realise is a lot of engineers are using windows at work too. Our tiny company of engineers is all in on Windows and does exactly what we want. I’d prefer Mac but windows is fine.
I'm in the same boat. That said I was able to play Factorio on steam out of the box with Bazzite on my laptop. Other things were not as straightforward though so I'm still not daily driving it.
People are saying this?
Are they idiots?
Someone actually said that to me the other day. (I am no longer friends with that person). I think its because people (especially americans) see that almost everyone is using iPhone so their tiny social media influenced brains say “If EveRy oNe USes ipHonE it beTteR”. Meanwhile us sensible people just sit here internally screaming.
Bizarre thing to end a friendship over?
We weren’t the closest friends, and we fought too much anyways.
Yes
Hardware really needs to be opened. So many issues are caused by people being unable to get away from large company control due to them beinf the only ones able to get decent hardware.
The Librem 5 is a Linux phone and already has open board design files, available here.
@jcs Librem 5 has a fully closed source SoC, which means System on a Chip as opposed to a traditional desktop where the components would be part of a motherboard. The board schematics are for a basic PCB. It's a nearly entirely closed source device in terms of where the actual complexity is. The SoC is the core component providing nearly all the base functionality. The SSD, memory, touchscreen, battery, Wi-Fi, Bluetooth, cellular, etc. are all closed source, as are various other chips, etc.
@jcs Librem 5 has atrocious privacy and security due to using a bunch of low security and outdated components, which are not open and do not have open firmware. Many components including the radios lack proper security updates. Purism does not provide the firmware updates through their OS and has set up a bunch of it in a way where it can't be updated. They even went out of the way to move things to a locked down secondary processor to block updates. They claim if you can't update it, it's open.
@jcs The definition of openness used by Librem 5 is that a fully closed source device with closed source firmware and software would be open and freedom respecting as long as none of the firmware/software can be updated.
Purism prevents updating firmware for the SoC and calls it open even though the SoC is fully closed source hardware and does have closed source firmware, which just can't be updated. They don't count secondary components like radios. 99.999% closed source hardware isn't open.
And it sucks last I heard. And the hardware is very outdated. I wish Ubuntu would try again.
If we wish to change the status quo yet ignore the ones actively challenging it, what are we left with? I can almost guarantee you that a Canonical-produced phone would certainly progress mobile Linux but would not be released as OSHW.
I've been using one as my daily-driver since March 2023. It's not a phone for everyone; I wouldn't recommend it to my parents, but it doesn't suck as long as you are not expecting feature parity with flagship proprietary options in a trillion-dollar market. Bugs get squashed over time, and there is power in numbers. Even the iPhone started out somewhere.
I'm sure that Purism would appreciate ideas you may have for an OSHW/FOSS-friendly processor unencumbered by NDA, that's well-documented, has long-term market availability, doesn't take half the real estate of the L5's PCB, would allow more than 2 hr of runtime, that...... you get the idea. Available processor options are limited if the device should be even remotely open. Spinning one from scratch is prohibitively expensive.
@Auli @jcs I'm daily driving a #Librem5 with #postmarketOS and everything really important works for my use case, including legacy unencrypted phone calls (VoLTE), SMS messages, 4G data, Wi-Fi, web browsing, email, #e2ee comms with #SignalApp, #DeltaChat, #Matrix, #XMPP, latest apps from #Flathub, etc.
Even running many Android apps with #Fdroid and #Obtainium work via #Waydroid although I tested that on #PureOS, not #postmarketOS.
Sure it's nowhere as fast as mainstream Android phones and has only basic camera support, but then those aren't my priorities when looking at #freedomtech.
@Auli @jcs sucks is a relative term.
The fact that there are only two operating systems and both are locked down is a major problem. Unless a company like Valve invests heavily in a linux phone it is unlikely to ever go mainstream enough for developer or device support.
We need governments and legislators to force these systems open. To enshrine the right to control the things you own and criminalize any attempt to curb people’s ownership or control. That is the first step. Once that’s in place, the environment for a third option to exist will be in place.
There are more than these 2, they are just ubiquitous.
Sailfish is another one, UBPorts, Danctnix, ... They have no marketshare worth considering for companies so they lock their services down to the 2 big ones and everything else in their eyes is "unsupported" at best and "not secure" at worst.
First of all: writing this from my iPhone. I’ve been on various android phones, including flashed to Sailfish and alternative ROMs, and I kinda hate being on an iPhone now. But - it works.
Look at the incentives of Google and Apple. Google sells ads. That’s it. Any operation at Google other than that is just a small side hustle. Apple sells hardware and 30% commission on apps/media. Apple’s incentives to fuck over the privacy of individuals is far smaller than Google’s incentives. That’s it.
Let’s go through the list:
Apple are anti-consumer assholes with a clear objective of creating lock-in under the guise of ”privacy” and ”security”, and they really want to force people into buying more hardware. Agreed. But they are the only major phone vendor that doesn’t have incentives to actively screw you over.
Is a flashed ROM ”better” for ”privacy”? Probably. Should you get your mother an iPhone? Yes.
Both Tim and Pinchai paid Donald Trump money to attend his inauguration and lick his ass on a daily basis. They both have one very big incentive to invade their user's privacy: American fascism.
Yes. It would be nice if the Americans got their shit together.
Meanwhile, what phone should my mother buy in a store?
Someone else already said it. Old style flip phone. Can text and make calls; can't serve ads or collect any more data than your contact list.
Yeah, but my mom can’t do banking on a flip phone.
This is the issue. Everything sucks. Don’t complain that people make a determination to take the least fucky normal option instead of flashing privacy ROM of the week onto an old Nokia N95. Be happy they thought about privacy it at all.
You can’t participate in normal society without a smartphone. There are two options for normal people. Pick the least shitty one.
You don't need a phone to do banking.
Don't be facetious. Granny has a landline for calling - this is about a phone as we mean it today; a smartphone if you insist. Or how else is granny going to operate Netflix or whatever other service is only convenient on phones where they are?
You don't need a phone for any of that.
Do you actually not know of any services that are only convenient with a smartphone or are you just being annoying?
From the security standpoint and the patching standpoint, you are 100% straight on accurate.
Unfortunately, Apple Microsoft and Google all sell ads. They are also all working on training AI with your data.
The upside is, as far as ad companies go, they're not just handing over the data that "[email protected] likes red squirrels to be vendors" They sell client code where the client pulls the ads directly from apple's platform.
They're all collecting dossiers on you. They have all identified you and their systems with whatever emails, payment cards, what have you that you use on their systems. And they have a database with all of your intimate desires and wishes and wants and how much money you make.
When Google started doing this, they threw up the don't be evil banner. You can't just give all this information to a company and then trust them not to use it forever.
So where can my mother buy this excellent non-tracking phone?
She can’t. No one sells it.
Of course everyone is collecting a shitton of data. Out of the two (realistic) alternatives we have today, Apple has, by far, a better track record. Still bad, but they have far fewer incentives to be shitty than Google. Googles only incentive is to be shitty and sell ads. Pick your poison.
There's always a flip phone, they're coming back I hear.
Google had a better track record till then didn't.
Apple and google are in the same market, selling the same stuff, both selling ads. Google's hardware being somewhat cheaper hardly makes their ads a more significant incentive.
Don't fall for Apple PR, they sell you out like everyone else does: https://ads.apple.com/
Of course they do.
But they have recurring revenue streams other than just ads, unlike the Android vendors. Meaning - they probably won’t fuck me over as hard as Google.
Edit: also, note that the ads they sell via your link are on their own platform, i.e. within their own ecosystem. The revenue here is most likely peanuts compared to the AppStore commissions.
Alternatively, get your mother an android phone and chuck /e/OS on it and tell her it's an iPhone. She won't know.
Try it. I dare you. And I want you to succeed.
People have been saying this about linux for the past two decades. Gamers are only now looking at moving over to Linux, after Valve invested a shitton of money into compatibility and usability, fixing the edge cases. And that’s the small subset of people who actively care about their computer. Normal people moving to Linux won’t happen the next few years.
Preserving usability while locking down a system is a really fucking hard problem, especially when you need to do it for normal people and not only us nerds. And you really need the normal people there in order to inject funding.
Ever used /e/OS? I've managed to fool iPhone users into thinking I've got a custom iPhone build lol. No I'm not kidding.
Linux Phone with waydroid is the way
Probably excellent. Can my mother buy it over the shelf, in a store?
If not, what’s the best alternative currently available over the shelf, in a physical brick and mortar store, for my mother?
Mothers use iPhones anyways. For now iPhone might be okay but someday it will start to suck so hard that you can't stand using it, just like what's happening to Windows. That's why we need to consider start using Linux phones so your mother can ditch iPhone for it.
The last panel could also say “muh iPhone! I was never allowed to sideload anyway!” [I say this as an iPhone user]
The humble IPA file:
I hear Linux phones are close for daily driver stuff. Gonna try one when I am ready for a phone.
Pretty disappointed in my 2 year old pixel, regardless of Googles continued enshitification
Have you looked into GrapheneOS support for your device?
Sucks that it only works on Pixels for the most part. I've never paid that much for a phone, and I ain't starting now lol
FYI, I just got LineageOS on a cheap Motorola phone ($140 USD, but you need a PC to do the install)
Nice! I have a PC! I'm just very cheap!
Maybe get used? That way you don't support Google and it doesn't cost too much. Not sure how much mine cost, I got it as a gift from my mother who's pretty good about finding sales for things, although it was brand-new.
If not that then people seem to see CalyxOS as a decent alternative.
Not CalyxOS right now.
https://calyxos.org/news/2025/08/01/a-letter-to-our-community/
I went with /e/OS, and it works well, even bank apps.
Let me put this here:
Murena (the ppl behind /e/ OS) feed your data to LLMs, and there's also telemetry.
Stop exaggerating. The OpenAI speech-to-text service is a paid extra you don't accidentally switch on, and telemetry is off by default and hidden in the developer options menu.
(But yeah, OpenAI was a disgusting choice. The default should have been local, even if it's worse.)
I got to expense mine, wouldn't pay that much if i had to actually pay lol
@chocrates @DeathByBigSad If you're already used to Linux desktop, I'd even venture to say that Linux phones are daily drivable for you in this order: #FLX1s from @furilabs, #JollaC2, #LibertyPhone, #Librem5, #Pinephone.
I'm daily driving a #Librem 5 with #postmarketOS and everything critical actually works for my use case.
Awesome! Yeah I run Ubuntu at home for years. Sadly back to Mac at work
you can make your point without ableism, you know
also, has anyone (at least here on lemmy) said "well at least apple cares about privacy!!"? the most ive seen is "apple is less atrocious with privacy than google", which is demonstrably true (tho if you care about maximum privacy, using an iphone is obviously not a good idea)
This is only ableist if you believe the drooling idiot at the bottom has a disability and is not just a drooling idiot.
he has facial deformity which is usually accompanied by other developmental issues, and is being used to stand in for exactly that here
yeah maybe theyre the ableist ones if they think that is a depiction of someone with a disability lmao
Apple is kicking and screaming all the way on this side loading path.
As soon as Google got away with it, Apple will refer to Google and happily claim an even playfield and everyone is left holding the shortest stick.
Maybe China will bring out a cheap, affordable and degoogled phone lol.
Idk man, PRC isn't exactly FOSS friendly. I mean they are pushing their corporate platform called "WeChat" which requires a smartphone. Many of mainland China's services require a phone number verification, and phone service require Identification. They've started developing things like "HarmonyOS" and started going Closed Source and blocking .apk installs (allegedly, I can't confirm). Bootloader unlocking has become a pain in devices like Xiaomi. Etc...
I'm more wiling to bet on the Europeans to develop FOSS stuff.
Wechat and Alipay are really convenient though. I could see them enshittifying in the future, but right now they're great.
Some work with foreign numbers. Some require a passport photo.
Meituan works if you verify a foreign number the first time you scan a bike. Which is a problem if you don't want to catch roaming charges. I had to drag a bike into wifi range so I could get the SMS verification via wifi the first time.
when you install western apps on a modern chinese phone, it will complain that it doesn't have a license from the ICP. For now there's a "install anyway" button to bypass it, but for how long?
Um…who actually thinks #3? Apple tells you they sell your stuff and makes app devs tell you. They still sell it, mine it, tailor it for ads, all the same stuff as Google…but just not as pervasive.
The GrapheneOS people. Everyone in their IRC unironically thinks Iphones are highly secure, in part BECAUSE they are proprietary. But they also don't tolerate any criticism of Google, especially if you criticize Google for being proprietary.
I saw one person saying basically that yesterday, but it was heavily downvoted.
Yeah, I use lineage with microg..and it's been tough.. I had to deal with several government apps in order to start a new job and guess what? None of them work..I had to use my wife's phone to get my new ID.. I'm a teacher and I have to use government apps to deal with student's absences..that Does not work either..basically anything that relys on Brazilian government app to authenticate something is not going to work. I tried to use the website..guess again..it does not work! One can't export an ID from the website..I had been dealing with banking apps without much trouble..but this ID thing is terrible! How come you can only do stuff using an app and not using the website!?
How are devs supposed to test their apps on devices before they publish?
They can upload their ID to google, pay $25 USD, and then sign their apps using their own signing key which was pre-approved by Google.
Its the same for apple, but I think their fees are like $99 per year.
There are also reports of Google potentially leaving in a ADB bypass for it.
It’s less that Apple cares about privacy, and more that it’s easier for them to control within a walled garden. If you control all of the levers, the rest naturally falls into place. That doesn’t mean it’s better; it’s just different.
Apple is secure in the same way a prison is secure. It is great at stopping attackers from entering but also great at stopping you from getting out if you don't do it the approved way.
It’s even more than that. They don’t want the liability of responsibility handling/securing your data in the event their systems are breached.
I used to work for a company that did a lot of business with Apple and have friends who have worked at Apple proper, they’re paranoid about mishandling sensitive data.
My biggest issue with the alternative phones is I'm not paying a massively inflated price for bad hardware just because it's using free software, sorry. Same goes for Framework laptops. I will tolerate paying a premium, but everything about the device must match the price tag.
Buy more so that their economics and capabilities can be improved so they can sell better for cheaper.
That's how economics work, right? Someone will have to buy phones enough that it becomes financially viable to pursue the needed improvement (including eg.: getting better open hardware or even getting patents on already existing hardware released).
So you do that and I buy when the price makes sense, thanks. Sorry, not paying a 60% premium for three year old hardware so "in the future it can become cheaper for others"
What are the consequences for Lineage OS?
It won't affect you in any way directly. The issue is it very well may affect what apps are available and regularly updated on Fdroid and other app stores or repos.
It will, unfortunately.
I get it, it's bad for the ecosystem in general.
Dire, from what I gathered
That's a damn shame.
Installing non-approved apps on custom roms will still work.
I'm sorry I'm not buying a Linux phone or similar for the same reason I'm not going to become a mechanic to drive a car. I want to activate my SIM card and go. Out of the box. I don't want to have to know about kernel access side booting in dev mode. People like me are the primary user base for most devices.
Yeah honestly, while I do think that part of the issue with Linux popularity is that it doesn't have some big corporate marketing sponsor, I truly believe that the bigger part of it is just the absolute roughness of the user experience and the still dominant mentality of wanting it to be some kind of prestige flex club. Linux needs to become as brain dead simple and out of the box usable as iOS or Windows. Linux folks love to say that it already is. It isn't. I use Linux, and I really like it. But if you think it's as straightforward as the big two, you're lost in the sauce. You're like the math professor who says "Come on guys double integrals are NOT that complicated, it's basically just addition and multiplication. Don't you know how to add and multiply?"
The big problem is that the intersection of people who are not lost in the sauce and who want to and are capable of actively making contributions to Linux, is very very small.
I'd have to take your word.for it.
I just want smart tube to keep working on my shield
Just use the device mobile security researchers use.
You’re gonna hate it when you discover which one it is.
Yeah, just hating on iPhones because they're iPhones is stupid. I use GrapheneOS, and their official statement is "Graphene is your best option for security, but if you don't want to fiddle with things and be in an open source ecosystem, your #2 best choice is an iPhone"
I’d love to use graphene if it didn’t require me to buy a Pixel
I genuinely don't understand this mindset. they work fine and the security seems unmatched.
I specifically don’t want to give Google (Alphabet inc) a single cent I don’t have to.
So, idealism over pragmatism. I disagree but I respect it.
In any case, you could always buy one secondhand.
It's not hard to understand for me.
I don't have a Pixel. GrapheneOS now costs me hundreds of dollars. I'd like to be able to flash a custom ROM, but I literally don't have the option without buying into it. I'm sure the Pixel is fine, but so is my current phone that also already cost me hundreds of dollars. This is a ridiculous problem to have.
I don't think it's all that ridiculous that you can't install a security focused OS on a device that lacks the security required by the OS.
That's not what makes it ridiculous to me. I think it's ridiculous that Google locking down android now costs me hundreds of dollars to deal with for no real benefit to myself. No shade being thrown towards Pixel or GrapheneOS. The circumstances are the problem. Google is the problem...which does place quite a bit of irony on the solution being a Google Pixel.
Oh yeah, totally agreed on all points. Google is the bad guy here, but at the end of the day that doesn't change the fact that a degoogled google device is actually the best current option. I wish more folks could handle that nuance.
Nothing wrong with not wanting to or not being able to make an expensive new hardware purchase to work around some bullshit like Google is pulling though, of course.
Excuse me Sir/Ma'am is it socially acceptable to dislike walled gardens and horrendous UI design at the price of more than a new laptop computer
I’ll never use an android device again knowing what I know about them.
I begrudgingly use an iPhone, knowing what I know about them.
Baseband will always be against you, no matter what choice you make.
Just use the device pedophiles use.
Survivorship bias: don't use the phone they get caught on.
I wanna run away to live with dogs like Diogenes. I'll live in a basket and piss and shit in the streets. No spyware phone required.
Honestly though what should I switch to. I have a lot of apps that need side loading.
There are many custom ROMs based on AOSP: GrapheneOS (for security against hacking and confiscation), LineageOS and its descendants /e/OS, iodéOS, and crDroid, etc. CalyxOS is not doing well right now, but it should be back in a few months.
Make sure you can relock the bootloader after installing to protect against attacks through the USB connector.
Murena ships /e/OS preinstalled on the European Fairphone and Shiftphone. Iodé similarly.
Then there's Volla phone which can have Linux (Ubuntu Touch) and and VollaOS (AOSP-based) on the same phone. There are other Linux phones, but nobody recommends them for normal consumers.
I'll use smoke signals
No joke, you can use a bright lamp and a shutter to send morse code. If you layer One-Time-Pad encryption on top of it, voila, you get secure, offgrid communications.
Perhaps there's scope to have a phone be just a dumb 'viewer' and all the processing and apps run on a suitably configured Linux pc or virtual environment at home. The internet in general is getting fast enough that the latency might not be an issue, and it would not need a powerful phone.
Poor example below, controlling an old phone using Rustdesk.
it doesn’t matter if apple cares about privacy. corpos shouldn’t have this data in the first place.
Can I use my work shit on a Linux phone or custom Rom. Also what are my hardware options with those.
Linux phones aren't quite there yet, and one of the big problems from what I understand is simply that the hardware is locked down. Firmware and drivers aren't readily available, and so supporting handsets is just really hard.
How much money would be needed to build an open source linux phone from the ground up?
I don't know if they'd even be up for it but at this point I think the best option would be Framework getting into it as theyre already trusted by the community.
But even if we get the hardware down there's another issue - we need an open source, government approved, bank approved Wallet app. There's only Google or Apple wallet to store important documents on Mobile at the moment. Frustratingly, some governments are using only those two as a source for national verification which is obviously a problem.
would it not be theoretically possible to run a virtual OS to use an app like that on a linux phone?
Yes, but that it can be temperamental and finicky. If you have a rooted phone currently you need to trick a different service called play protect into thinking that your device is kosher, so to speak; different updates from Google can and have broken the processes that have worked in the past.
Needless to say a solution needs to be robust, the possibility to not access your gov id because a private company changed a process and decides you don't get to use the same loophole you've used till now isn't great from a technical or security standpoint. I would imagine it's even more frustrating for non-US citizens as their government is relying on a foreign company with a notably bad track record of keeping services available.
It's not that such a technology is hard to make, it's more about adoption. Even better than a particular product we could gather around would be a set of standards that the community could build various products around (so long as they meet those standards). That however feels unlikely from the current US administration and based on the EU's recent GitHub proclamation on their age verification act.
I'm pretty sure there's still products like that. I bought a PinePhone once upon a time.
I would say that completely FOSS Linux OS won't ever be as smooth experience as business solution. Jolla has developed SailfishOS which is mostly open decade now and it is quite stable. Also has android emulator where you can use most android apps, but not all. In my opinion we should support that as much as possible to have true alternative. Also EU should start supporting ita development
If it's designed for Android, not a phone using desktop Linux, but you can on a custom ROM which is probably a variant of AOSP.
Incredibly specific and restrictive, do your homework carefully. Pixels are usually (always?) good, which is ironic, while certian manufacturers like Samsung are right out.
I found a model that works secondhand and I'm as happy as a pig in shit with it, FYI.
Yea, pixels don't have an SD slot so that's out.
Here's the list for LineageOS.
Isn't work supposed to provide you with a phone?
They don't deem it necessary and it's not really but it helps me to not be chained to my desk all day when I can check Teams and Email on the go.
I wish but then I've been told by manager bro that no one wants to carry around two phones
What Linux based phones are actually worth trying? Something not built on old hardware, and can actually install apps, messages people and work as a phone. And that I won’t have to chase issues and bug fixes on nonstop to keep it working. Something stable for daily use, works in multiple countries, and not just something to play around with.
Are the fair phones really that bad on Ubuntu? I was sizing those up for my next phone
So far there's this company: https://furilabs.com/shop/flx1s/
The phones actually seem really neat, they're running real Linux, with Waydroid for sandboxed android apps. But it's got... quirks. It's very GNOMEy and there's still a lot of battery issues and it can be a bit awkward to use.
Also, since apps are sandboxed, something like sending pictures over Signal can be tedious without extra steps.
But it's an exciting step forward and the devs are really involved with the community!
Alternatively I imagine there's something like PostMarket on a Fairphone. Even with their issues, I appreciate what they're trying to do.
Week 4 on GrapheneOS:
This is the best. I should have done this years ago.
Even IF all you care about is performance, this is the option. Fastest pocket derputer I've used in my life.
I’ve been planning to switch to GrapheneOS soon, though my carrier (Verizon) makes it kinda difficult.
How so? I'm on Verizon. Swapped my sim and off I went. Upgrade credit issue with them or something?
They told me they couldn't get the 256GB model so I said @#^ them and bought myself one
I have an eSIM which my research showed is a little difficult to get working on GrapheneOS. Also the fact that Verizon sells them locked and doesn't provide support for non stock OSes. I would have to switch out for a regular SIM, though I simply haven't found the time. Also I haven't fully paid off my current phone.
if you already have an esim on the phone it will not be wiped during installation - esims reside on a completely separate chip.
all "difficult to set up" information is exactly about that - setting up, that, in any case, is just about enabling specific google services that you can disable afterwards.
my phone has about 5 esims installed, I regularly wipe my phone, they are unaffected.
My current phone is a Samsung. Got it before i knew about all this. To get GrapheneOS I’d need to get a Pixel
Without defending one or the other, as long as you have proprietary closed software running on the device itself or on the backend of the services it syncs with, all you can have is assumptions and reasonable doubt about how the data is used. We're trading convenience for someone knowing something about us.
After using GrapheneOS on a gigantic fucking Android pixel model, I think I'm gravitating back towards the third option and the iphone mini I haven't dared to sell yet. I think I'll just do the things that needs privacy on my computer in the future.
https://www.privacyguides.org/en/mobile-phones/
I don't think PG has updated yet to take into account that F-Droid is saying they might shut down if Google proceeds with the app verification stuff
The "means above" that I see are:
I don't see any mean "below" F-Droid.
I don't think that privacyguides.org will have to be updated significantly if something related to F-Droid happens since it already documents that "there are some security-related downsides to how F-Droid builds, signs, and delivers packages". It's clear to me that using F-Droid should only be used when it's clear that all other means will fail to produce suitable results.
Once my GrapheneOS phone goes out of service, I may just go back to flip phones. I actually kind of hate smartphones and their corrosive effect on the world. The convenience isn't worth the loss of privacy, empowerment of bad actors, and psychological/societal damage. I can live without it. I'll just do computery stuff on real computers on my own schedule.
I'm just saying that you can uninstall stuff from your smart phone.
Use it for phone stuff, not computer stuff.
But hey, don't let me tell you what to do. Have fun.
I use an iPhone simply because I refuse to use google services any longer, not because I’m delusional about apple caring about privacy.
I don't quite get the hierarchy, Linux phones have FOSS software, and greater device capability and software support compared to dumb phones. They should be ranked above dumb phones.
Unfortunately Linux phones are not that mature yet. Often they lack basic functions like "calling".
Yeah but at at least they never sell information about who you have been calling!
You've had "security though obscurity" now try "security though inability"!
Who needs to do that in this day and age?? ha ha!
So if they can’t call then they aren’t really a phone then. Which is kinda wild that that’s missing, that’s literally the basic functionality of a phone.
Yes, but I want to emphasize that it's not a lack of skill or focus of the Linux phone developers. Calling is exceptionally complex to implement if you have to reverse engineer all drivers and the used hardware is closed. Most of the other stuff on the software level such as menus, apps, browsing etc. is "basic computer stuff".
I get that it’s hard to make, but it is the bare minimum anyone expects from a phone. Not having it is a bad look.
If I bought a phone that was literally incapable of calling people I don’t know a way to describe that other than fraud.
It’s a scam, by being called a phone it implies that it can call people or receive calls.
It also could become quite detrimental to Linux phones in general if the idea that some of these phones can’t call reaches the public eye. Because you just know that the stigma against Linux phones will be that they can’t call anyone. Which like how bad Linux used to be for general users has left it with the stigma that it’s just not functional.
Calling is being used less and less. I think the main feature required is to run apps and connect to the internet.
Can you imagine explaining to a normie that you can't make phone calls on your phone because you're running an operating system they've never heard of?
They'd think you're the dumbest person they've ever met.
Basically just a tablet lmao
@Ilovethebomb @Fizz Depends on your circle but in my experience, these are the same people who completely locked into WhatsApp, Facebook, Gmail, etc and only use SMS/calls when you don't answer their WA messages : )
I think its not hard to explain that I just use whatsapp for calls(I dont use whatsapp but you get rhe point). Most Normies stop using SMS and cell calling a long time ago.
If I really cared I could just say that I had no phone credit and they would accept that.
@Fizz @oxysis Agreed, after #SaltTyphoon, no one should be using legacy unencrypted calls and SMS for personal communication. A data-only SIM with instant messaging apps for calls and messages can work in 2025.
Isn't that just a tablet?
They are. Look at the meme, Linux phones get the tux.
Well of course they do. It's their mascot.
ITT
"I give up"
The dropped Chromecast for a new device. I was sideloading apps on that. I wonder how long before we have a "fix"
Dumb phones, has anyone tried: https://sunbeamwireless.com/ ?
Interesting. Looks to be based on Android AOSP which kind of puts you in the same boat. Th price tag kind of hurts as well at $250 give or take depending on features.
Volla doesn’t ship to Canada :c
"My iphone battery died again!? I guess I'll have to buy another new phone. Why does this keep happening?" /s
This is a terribly non technical and hugely misinformed post
@DeathByBigSad Big corpus care about MARKETING privacy as a sizeable portion of the market makes purchases based on perception of security. Personally security isn't very important to me. If anything I might be more likely to purchase something if I believe it to be insecure thereby making it easier for me to hack it and do what I want with it.
Assuming there will still be a way for devs to run apps without store BS. Won't this just push users to run the apps the same way? All they're threatening with is that they will no longer provide updates or security screening or something, which will be even better for backward compatibility. If this forces enough users to learn enough devops just this once to enter the paradise that is free from corporate security theatre you bet your ass they're not going back
You forgot
🤔
Aka: Custom ROMs, or at the very least, root access (which requires bootloader unlocking)
Yes, but unless you've done the aforementioned, stock roms with locked bootloaders still require Google to approve your signing keys, which requires you upload your government issued ID (and $25 payment).
Nah, only "certified Android devices", ie, those certified for and that ship with Play Protect, will block apps unsigned by a verified developer, and Play Protect can be disabled. Standard.
Nope on cost: free for personal use.
Moreover, installs over Android Debug Bridge bypass verification entirely.
Enabling developer mode for that isn't a big deal.
This all seems like a huge nothingburger by people who don't read.
Wow, that’s so cool OP that you think we should be allowed to use apple products
What a weird strawman
Google literally copied this from Apple.
This meme brought to you by people who have made android part of their personality. People who if they knew how to asset security, wouldn't be android users.
the only people making a mobile os their whole personality i know of are apple users
I can't wait for "linux phones", I bet it's going to be "great"!
LInUx IsNt ReAdY
@TrickDacy @DrDystopia Try #FLX1s from @furilabs
Any specific reason they're good? I mean in this case "trying" means dropping $550
what are you implying?
That it's not "optimal" to use quotation "marks". What do you "think"?
You're misreading that "Linux phone" panel.
Not "non-approved apps", unsigned apps. They're not running approval on the software itself. And technically you can still sideload signed software. And you can sideload unsigned software in non-Google certified Android devices, too.
Hey, I hate their stupid power grab, it sucks and I hope regulators intervene, but if you're gonna get all pretentious and uppity about everybody else's responses you're gonna get fact checked. I don't make the rules.
Say, I wanna run an F-Droid app, I trust F-Droid's signature, but Google doesn't, therefore, I can't run it. Tell me: How is that not an "approval process".
And how about izzyondroid or The Guardian? What if they don't wanna show their IDs or if Google deems them "untrustworthy". (They are more safe than the "Play Store" btw, Google can't even keep their own stores free of malware lol, which a bunch of volunteers have much safer apps)
I can already tell this is going to be one of those conversations you get online where people are just itching for somebody to defend the position they want to argue against and will just have that argument regardless of what the other side says.
But because I'm a very flawed person I'll still go for it and note that technically if F-Droid is the one signing all the apps and Google doesn't like one of them, they'd have to ban F-Droid's entire account, not just the one app. Anything else would require them to look at the apps in the first place, which in this scenario they are not doing.
But it's certainly possible that they'll ban a specific developer (or a store if the store is doing the signing), and that's one of the reasons why this scheme is unacceptable.
What it is not is an approval process, since... you know, they're not looking at the apps themselves. Words mean things.
Presumably, at least nominally, Google wants the signatures to be able to tie an app to a developer. Whether they are going to ban people proactively or not we simply don't know because their stupid policy is barely communicated and they seem to intend to get it rolling before addressing any of these because Apple already used this loophole successfully so why the hell not, I suppose.