Republican says Charlie Kirk would have been Jesus' "13th disciple"
https://www.newsweek.com/charlie-kirk-republican-troy-nehls-jesus-13-disciple-2131492Open linkView original on lemmy.world544
Comments143https://www.newsweek.com/charlie-kirk-republican-troy-nehls-jesus-13-disciple-2131492Open linkView original on lemmy.world
Have these people just never actually read the Bible, or something?
No but they thump it all the time
Acquaintance from high school married a preacher man, "met" him on FaceBook. Very intelligent and well educated man. His doctorate in divinity is real, he worked for it, absolute expert. His arguments were well crafted and we loved poking each other. Plus, we were both hot pepper fanatics and growers. :)
Here's the point: That's the only Christian I've met in life that could actually debate Biblical views. I can turn most of them into a raging, spitting, cursing mess with a dozen questions, and they almost never engage for the whole dozen.
Guess I should include my best friend. He was a conservative Southern Baptist, very angry when I announced I had turned to atheism, though he was fine with me as a deist. LOL, I corrupted that fucker. Now he's an atheist, liberal, and supports gay rights. But again, he's an exception. His best traits are that he's intelligent, way more so than I, and best yet, he can admit he's wrong and is willing to examine his beliefs. Exceptions proving rules and whatnot.
Oooo, can you give us a list of your 12 questions? Or a bunch of them?
LOL, no list. I just grew up in a white-bread Presbyterian church, know the Bible well enough to argue, if not exact chapter and verse.
Dang, I was hoping you could give us some good ammo.
My sister-in-law's step dad and grandfather are both preachers with doctorates in theology. I can talk religion with them all day, and we all can recognize the issues with modern Christians. The people who actually understand the Bible are generally great people in my experience.
They aren't the issue. It's the people who use it as a tool/weapon who are the issue. They don't care what it says, nor do they even know what it says usually. They might know a handful of passages that can be mangled to fit their hateful ideology, but it doesn't really matter as long as they fell righteous.
Have you asked them about the bibles internal inconsistencies?
Start with something uncontroversial like; what's the name of Joseph's father?
Being intelligent but believing in a sky papa. I don't see those two going together.
Read?
If they had, they'd know there was a 13th disciple named Matthias. I'm not even kidding, it's in the Book of Acts. He was selected to replace Judas, and is described as having been with them since the beginning.
No. They wait for people on TV/Facebook to tell them what it says.
Very likely not. It's not an easy book to get through. Even the most devout will usually tap out at the begats.
Jesus already had a 13th apostle... Dude doesn't know about Matthias.
While Matthias was only taking the chair left by Judas, Charlie would have really continued with the true legacy of Judas. 🙏
Or Paul, apparently.
There's a handful of others, but it all depends on what one considers a canonical source. Like the Dead Sea scrolls vs a King James Bible.
Can’t read it , it’s not held upside down
Correct; early Christianity was far from monolithic, but the ultimate point is that this person very obviously doesn't know what the fuck they're talking about.
yeah i'm not much of a biblical scholar and that's what i was leading with.
Why the fuck are they riding this dead dick so hard? He was a horrible debater, held repulsive beliefs even to some people on the right, and wasn't even really that popular. He was a laughing stock to the majority of people and a perfect poster child for ignorant racist idiots the world over. Like, if you're going to martyr someone, pick someone who stands up to scrutiny.
If the beliefs held up to scrutiny they wouldn't be associated with the modern Republican party
touche'
Well he did a good job of upholding his PR for those who are dumb enough to believe it because he deceptively edited his videos for them.
They are using his strong religious beliefs as a lighting rod. If you slam Charlie Kirk, you're basically slamming Christianity. It is easily used as a weapon.
oh that's pretty easy. i'm against genocide.
What Christianity? Americans are not Christians they're some weird capitalists me me me version of religion.
I agree. It's also worse than any religion out there. Sheep.
This is why the fascists are winning. They know how to play the propaganda game. Libs would have shit bricks if we tried to politicize the murder and attempted murder of the Minnesota state lawmakers.
We're beyond playing fair and taking the high road, Democrats still playing the game from a decade past. And fucking losing.
This isn't a propaganda win. Its simply a pretext for what they wanted and had the power to do anyway. Propaganda win would be if there was universal popular support for Kirk, and there wasn't before and simply isn't now. Most people didn't even know who Kirk was before this.
I really wish they'd show more clips of him. Maybe people unfamiliar with him with a couple of brain cells to rub together might realise 'wait, we're deifying that idiot?'
And your point? Of course they needed a pretext and this turned out to fit the bill. Roll the propaganda machine!
I guess I thought my point was clear in my first sentence. "This isn’t a propaganda win."
They don't need a pretext either. They've already enacted draconian policies against monitory groups based upon race and against LGBTQ folks. They needed no rational pretext for those. They didn't need one for any other horrible things they're going to do in the future. They would do those things anyway.
Some dead people become martyrs and that has happened here.
That dumb fucking shooter.
doesnt seem like kirk is the martyr, but more like the shooter is sorta becoming one, because MSM and the gop cant afford to blame one of tier own.
Apparently that's what they respect. Make of that what you will.
Social effect, easy martyr. Fascism loves this.
they seem to be doubling down the fact the shooter was even further right than he is, the gop ,trump and MSM cant afford to alienate the right by blaming a right winger. its simple they cant blame thier own people. so they have make something up like tying obscure reference of the shooter associating with the "trans" people.
Because of his position on social issues?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Kirk
If you haven't read his wiki, now is a great time.
American Far-Right Evangelicalism is the biggest heresy in 21st century Christianity and possibly the most wide spread heresy in the history of the religion.
Technically Islam is, since it has roots in the arianism heresy
I reckon being heretical involves at least claiming to be part of the religion. You might have a better argument for LDS
Eh, Muslims claim to worship "The god of Adam, Moses, Abraham, and Jesus".
JWs claim to be Christian but not the same religion as Christians.
I think Mormons do claim to be a Christian debomination somehow. They even sing Christian hymns. Although I had a Mormon missionary reject monotheism to my face. But again, that's probably why we'd measure them as heretics here.
I think the Mormons have the number of people that will go to heaven down to a set number and it is not very large like several thousand. That is of all time. Which makes it kind of funny when they are trying to recruit you in their minds you were predestined never to go to heaven.
Those are Jehovah's Witnesses.
They believe that there is a two tier system, that there are 144,000 people who will go to heaven and the rest will remain on earth.
Mormons believe you become a god and get your own planet
Well, sure, but that's not enough for them to be considered "Christian" in any useful sense of the word. We certainly wouldn't consider Christians to be Jewish by that standard and they have a much deeper foundation in Judaism than Islam has in Christianity.
Mormons cannot really be considered Christians either
they self-identify as christian though, whereas Muslims do not self-ID as Christians.
To be fair, any garden variety conservative could be an disciple. Judas, specifically.
They openly ignore and even violate Jesus' words and values regularly. Just the other day someone in the senate shouted "silent prayers bring silent results" and forced everyone to pray aloud.
I immediately thought of Matthew 6:5. If you're going to believe in fairy tales, maybe you should read the whole book first.
Strongly disagree. Judas felt shame, and hung himself. Conservatives feel no shame and would never repent.
(Unless of course you read the other chapter of the fairy tale that says he didn’t kill himself but instead fell into a hole and exploded or something)
🤣 man "he felt shame and at least hung himself" never thought I'd LoL to the betrayal of Jesus.
He hung himself in a field he bought, his body baked in the sun, the rope broke and he was found exploded on the ground.
Well no, that’s what I was saying.
In Matthew 27:3–7 he is filled with remorse, tries to give the silver back, the priests don’t want it, he throws it on the ground and goes and hangs himself, and the priests buy a potters field with it.
But in Acts 1:18 it merely says he buys used the money to buys a field, falls in it, and “burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.”
It’s a famous discrepancy among biblical scholars, and the general belief is that it is a discrepancy. Some try to justify it figuratively, but the better explanation is it’s all nonsense.
The full quote.
I read that article the other day. Excellent characterization of Kirk.
Lol, these fucking people. How can they not just get completely sick of themselves. I guess it takes having a monkey's level of self-awareness. I wonder if when they look in the mirror they get confused and aggressive at the thing staring back at them.
edit: I was very harsh on monkeys in this comment and I want to apologize to monkeys everywhere
"Dead guys wife is hot. Kids, too."
Holy fuck, I am so sick of this.
"I tell you again, it is easier for a camel to fit through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of Heaven." -Christ
Come on, a Palestinian man preaching love and compassion ? The whole lot of them would call him a communist terrorist...
If Jesus came back and came to America, he would be shot within 10 minutes of opening his mouth and 100 years later a new religion would be started with a Glock as it's symbol.
Who says their God hasn't already tried to come back dozens of times but he keeps getting bombed because he's middle eastern
What if the Messiah is like the avatar cycle and every generation the Messiah comes back to teach the world shit.
If you think Jesus got pissed with the money lenders at the temple he would have completely lost his shit with Charlie Kirk. Even Judas would have been grossed out.
Nah Judas was literally stealing from charity
children with cancer charity? if so, he is president material
LOL
And lo, Charles did look down upon the leper, and he did pronounce "ugh, get a job!"
Only with "Republican Jesus". You know, the white guy wearing a toga, a cross, and an AR15.
Don't drag poor togas into this!
They can't brown nose hard enough. Fucking cowardly sycophants.
It's even worse: he's dead, so that makes it necrophilia.
Are they just going around trying to one up each other? What a ridiculous thing to say.
That is how fascism works. You must constantly increase your loyalty and worship or else you're at risk of being the next one attacked.
Charlie "Empathy is Evil" Kirk?
Yes. Remember, they worship Supply Side Jesus, not the one described in the Bible.
Angry Jesus. He is out beating up the gays right now.
"13th Disciple" is code for "2nd Judas"
Charlie would be wrestling that guy for the bag of silver coins.
I grew up religious and don't think I'd heard that. Is it a Catholic thing?
The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.
I forgot Jesus said to love thy neighbor, but only if they’re white so you know they’re not a DEI hire.
Reality is meaningless to these people. They just make up whatever, it’s a massive circlejerk.
Republicans pretending to be "Christians" never ceases to amuse
There is a non-zero chance that the second coming of Jesus DID happen, but it happened in rural America and he got killed by fascists again.
Contrary to what a lot of people think, I see this as a good sign. This right here is proof that MAGA has no future and that its days are numbered. A movement needs to be practical, flexible, coherent for it to last, and MAGA doesn't have any of these. MAGA currently has no morals, no values, no platform, no leadership outside of Trump, nothing. Everything starts and stops with Trump. Anything he says goes no matter how contradictory, insane, or nonsensical. He has purged the GOP and his own movement of anyone and anything that is capable of independent thought. He has made sure that MAGA and the GOP are exclusively made up of of yes men, which happen to be either slimy opportunists or blind loyalists.
This means that the moment Trump dies, MAGA will die with him. Without Trump serving as the de facto prophet, the movement will immediately fracture and the different factions will start fighting each other. This will lead them to be ineffective, which in turn will make them irrelevant with time. As for the GOP, it will become a blank slate as it will stand for nothing. It that will either collapse or reform to completely change from the top down. Because of this, I don't think MAGA is going to last long, but we just have to brace for the all the damage that they will cause in the little time they will be in power.
This is what I thought in 2016.
I think there's a distinct difference between now and 2016, back then MAGA was rather diverse in its makeup. There were libertarians, fiscal conservatives, moderate Republicans, neocons, evangelists, and so on. The point is that this diversity allowed for an internal discourse to exist to keep the party somewhat balanced. This stopped being case during the pandemic, and I mark Jan 6th as the official turning point. That's when Trump's purges reached their peak and the only people who were left were blind loyalists, grifters, or corrupt career politicians. Now? There's no balance anymore, it's entirely just Trump growing ever more demented and insane, and his flock of yes men cheering on whatever he says. That's not a sustainable movement or ideology, it will collapse in on itself sooner or later.
Even if you’re right, the damage they’ve done to the US government, journalism, and the Earth is immeasurable and will take decades to repair if we even can anymore.
I think people really underestimate just how much valuable work various branches of the US Government does, and MAGA has destroyed generations of work within a year.
I don't disagree with you, but I am optimistic that damage control will begin the moment MAGA is out of power. The moment the next non-MAGA government gets into power, they will immediately start reversing as many of the damaging policies as they could. Will things go back to the way they were? Probably not. Will things be fixed quickly? Definitely not. However, I do think that we will at least be put back on the right track as a country.
The only way they have no future is if we stand up to them and deprive them of it.
One down already!
True, but I'm also optimistic that MAGA will collapse in on itself. History has shown that movement that lack balance, principles, internal discourse, coherency, and flexibility don't last long. The only thing keeping MAGA together is Trump, and he has no successor. Once he dies, MAGA WILL shatter like broken glass. I see a lot of parallels between MAGA and the know nothings from the mid 1800s.
At what point do you admit that you're just licking assholes?
What a dumbass thing to say.
LOL wut? It's the perfect thing to say. They're playing this for all the propaganda they can squeeze. Meanwhile, liberals be like, "But this is obvious bullshit!"
They've created a perfect "us vs. them" litmus test. If I wore a "Charlie Kirk: Single shot through the engine block!" T-shirt in my little hick town, I would be challenged, escalating to threat. And it would end with someone getting shot.
We're playing fair while they cheat their ass off, in front of god and everyone. Calling out the hypocrisy is useless. We need propaganda of our own. Problem is, people like me, and presumably you, have a hard time lying for social or economic gain.
Well if we're doing that then:
George Floyd died for our sins thus he was Christ reborn!!!
Well, we did get worldwide protests out of that event. And now "woke" is a bad word. Go figure.
It would be more fun if these people weren’t running the US government.
Nothing, apparently.
I don't know. But it is here and it is weird. Ugh.
more like mass hysteria, which these men claim women always having. looks like these men are having hysteria.
No, he would have just replaced Judas
Judas at least showed some remorse.
Charlie "Tiny Face" Kirk would collect his silver and be smug about it.
These Nazis are truly disgusting.
Hell, surprisingly, still has room for these fuckers.
wut
Judas 2: Electric Bugaloo
...I mean, Judas was a disciple too if you believe in that kind of thing. Not high praise or anything.
i like the line of thought that judas was commanded to betray joshie boy, because he was the most diligent and faithful of the apostles.
Yep, and Lucifer an angel.
At what point are they just trolling and taking our attention away from what matters when voting
I've seen it already today. Quoting John 12:23 (because they claim CK died at 12:23pm) and applying it to CK. It's disgusting.
Disciple? No. Maybe Saul's partner in crime before Saul became Paul.
Or maybe one of Voldemort's minions, or a band of orcs assaulting Helm's Deep, or a stormtrooper in- wait, that one's a little too close. They can imagine him as anything they want, he's worm food now.
have you seen what white statesians eat? too many preservatives for the worms to want him.
Worms are almost as dumb as Republicans, they'll eat his poison up just like his listeners did.
RFK jr heard worms.
He definitely would have debated him and every point he lost to Jesus, he just would have brought up some shit from the Old Testament as proof that Jesus is wrong.
Much like Judas.
He wouldn't have needed 30 pieces of silver.
We need a parody book of the Bible like a Gospel of Charlie Kirk where he preaches empathy is bullshit, school shootings are totally worth right to own guns, and great replacement theory. It'd be as consistent as the rest of the Bible.
You'd be unironically compiling the New Bible. Conservatives love that kind of condescending, unfiltered hate
It's as hard for a rich man to get into heaven. He would have been the rich guy who wanted in on it, but wanted his money more.
Let them write another fantasy book
I can only dream Christianity to have stopped at 12 people!
People who believe this nonsense are mentally ill.
Get out of here with your religious nonsense.
Actually, correct me if I'm wrong but that was Matthias who replaced Judas Iscariot after he gave himself a neck stretch.
Yup. He brought the total living disciples back up to 12, but was the 13th to be chosen.
MAGA is a bad book club.
Wasn't Judas the 13th disciple?
No, he was one of the twelve disciples.
Not hardly
Imagine being Steven Crowder right now.
Hear me out in this one, if by disciple they mean Peter who cut off a Romans ear, or Judas who sold out Jesus, or Thomas who doubted Jesus return, then yeah I get it.
The goal of Christianity is to convince Indo-Europeans that they have a divine right to use the entire world and universe as their frontier for the endless pursuit of personal sovereignty. It's a scam to convince a large portion of the population that they're in on being a "chosen one" so they'll coerce themselves into expanding the tax base of whatever the major empire of the time is.
one of the DEMONS apostate.
Real Christian Jesus "Bitch, please! Take your cracker ass and get the fuck out of here."
Supply Side Jesus "Come my child, I welcome you to my flock."
Lol nice rage bite try
So true, such a pillar of the community, really an example for everyone to live by. Of course the fucking Libs won't tell you that cuz they hate freedom but we're going to fix it. /s
Preferably the one that had nails driven through his body and was left hanging on the upside down cross.
St. Peter's cross?