Linux phones are more important now than ever
E: apparently it needs to be said that I am not suggesting you switch to Linux on your phone today; just that development needs to accelerate. Please don't be one of the 34 people that replied to tell me Linux is not ready.
Android has always been a fairly open platform, especially if you were deliberate about getting it that way, but we've seen in recent months an extremely rapid devolution of the Android ecosystem:
- The closing of development of an increasing number of components in AOSP.
- Samsung, Xiaomi and OnePlus have removed the option of bootloader unlocking on all of their devices. I suspect Google is not far behind.
- Google implementing Play Integrity API and encouraging developers to implement it, which prevents apps from the Google Play Store from being downloaded without a system-wide OS-level account login. Notably the EU's own identity verification wallet requires this, in stark contrast to their own laws and policies, despite the protest of hundreds on Github.
- And finally, the mandatory implementation of developer verification across Android systems. Yes, if you're running a 3rd-party OS like GOS you won't be directly affected by this, but it will impact 99.9% of devices, and I foresee many open source developers just opting out of developing apps for Android entirely as a result. We've already seen SyncThing simply discontinue development for this reason, citing issues with Google Play Store. They've also repeatedly denied updates for NextCloud with no explanation, only restoring it after mass outcry. And we've already seen Google targeting any software intended to circumvent ads, labeling them in the system as "dangerous" and "untrusted". This will most certainly carry into their new "verification" system.
Google once competed with Apple for customers. But in a world where Google walks away from the biggest antitrust trial since 1998 with yet another slap on the wrist, competition is dead, and Google is taking notes from Apple about what they can legally get away with.
Android as we know it is dead. And/or will be dead very soon. We need an open replacement.
E2: thank you to everyone stopping by from Hacker News, Reddit, etc. to check out the threadiverse. I hope you'll stick around for a while. Check out https://phtn.app/ and the Voyager and Blorp apps for a nicer UI. Fuck Spez!
My next phone will run Linux, even if it is inconvenient.
As soon as this phone is paid off, I'll be changing from Google Fi as well. Which sucks because it's hella cheap.
I’m with you, I’ve switched all my computers to Linux for similar reasons. I bought an android phone recently and put Linux on that, although still some things to iron out such as sound and microphone input but it’s working well otherwise. Looking forward to when I can ditch my iPhone.
same. There is one windows computer still in this house and it's unplugged. Everything else is Linux, Android, or FreeBSD based.
There are several distros. You do need to ensure (as listed in the OP) that your bootloader is unlockable (listed as "OEM unlock" in Android).
Take a look into PostMarketOS, they are the bleeding edge for Linux mobile development. You can search on their wiki if your phone is supported.
The other solutions listed might be more turn key but not close to mainline Linux. (Custom kernel, etc)
They don't seem to have any supported devices apart from community contributions?
"These are the most supported devices, maintained by at least 2 people and have the functions you expect from the device running its normal OS, such as calling on a phone, working audio, and a functional UI. Besides QEMU devices, this is currently empty."
Yeah I wasn’t kidding about bleeding edge. It’s a double edged sword. You get more compatibility across a wide range of devices but it might not be 100% polished, yet.
To be fair, as most things in Linux, they are community developed. The community supported devices are supported by people who are taking their personal time to develop Linux to support these devices. You can view each individual device in the wiki to see how much support they have.
It’s all what you’re comfortable with, I still daily drive my iPhone as I need a very reliable device for my work. But I definitely rock my Linux phone when I can.
I think they are very device specific. Like only a handful of specific phones have builds for these OS.
Is it true that the top 2 in your list have the most features?
what phone and os do you have? im currently shopping and have always been on android; im looking for recommendations on both phones and os <3
I have the Nothing Phone 1, running my fork of Mobile NixOS. I bought it because I wanted a bit of a challenge to get it running Linux and it’s relatively newer then other better supported Linux phones. I don’t recommend it for anyone who is new to Linux.
If you’re relatively new to Linux and want something that’s more compatible, I recommend looking at the OnePlus 6 or 6T. They have pretty good support for multiple different distros.
What options are you looking into as far as a Fi replacement? I'm also on Fi and want to ditch them, and the Pixel soon.
I'm on Mint.
T-Mobile acquired them, per the usual bullshit, but I get 15GB a month with unlimited talk and text for "$20" a month. The catch is that you pay yearly in bulk for that price. Had it a year and change. Been solid.
I'm likely going to go to t-mobile as they're cheap from what I understand and they make up a big part of the network that google leases, along with (i think) US Cellular, or something similar.
That said, I've got about a year to decide, unless someone decides to hire me and then I can pay my phone off early.
As someone dailying a Linux phone, I will say that there were no issues getting it to work on T-Mobile. The only thing I did was manually enter the APN details, but that was an OS thing.
From what I have seen on forums Verizon won't let you at all, and AT&T might take a bit of work to get them to whitelist the IMEI on their network.
at&t collects any and all data they can and sells it directly to law enforcment and the government btw. im pretty sure they all sell your data, but at&t has illegal deals with the government
Good luck! Hope you get hired soon.
thanks! me too lol
go w an mvno; they're usually cheaper and it rob the carriers of profit.
and the carriers deserve it for blacklisting chinese smartphones from their networks in collusion with the us gov't in order to prevent chinese tech from entering the us like they're doing with EV's and solar panels using tariffs.
My family just switched from T-Mobile, as they've been jacking up prices lately, and without good reason, considering other carriers have better reception anyway.
What'd you switch to?
apparently it needs to be said that I am not suggesting you switch to Linux on your phone today; just that development needs to accelerate.I switched to Visible Wireless for now.
They're asking what provider you switched to, not what phone.
Duh, thank you. Photon makes it hard to see context now.
I like us mobile alot. Well priced too
Worth noting that some services will reject VoIP phone numbers.
JMP also explicitly states that it doesn't work for emergency calls.
Do you need a phone plan at all for emergency calling? It's required for all carriers to take 911 calls in Canada.
That's a good question. You don't need a phone plan but I think you do still need some way to communicate with the towers. If you do like jevans (data plan only), I suspect there will be no calling functionality at all. Emergency or otherwise. But I could be wrong. Take out your SIM card and call 911 and let me know haha.
It works in Canada without a SIM. I know because my son did it on his "wifi-only" tablet.
I'll have to look into it. 30GB isn't bad at all. I think I have unlimited now with text and phone for only like $10 more a month. I'd have to look, it's been a while since i've dealt with it.
On linux it's just called running an executable
Edit: As a less snarky answer, you can run Android apps natively on linux by installing Android OS in a container using something like
AnboxWaydroid.Mint and US Mobile are both good alternatives to Fi. US Mobile is a bit more flexible since you can use any of the major US carriers.
What? People finance phones? 🤣
Yes, some of us have good credit.
I don't but it doesn't mean I'm better than other people who do
My next phone is definitely going to be a Linux phone. I don't care if it's ready. I'm ready.
Same here.
My feelings on point.
Unfortunately there's a lot(!) to do to make Linux enjoyable on a phone. I bought a Pinephone some years ago. And in addition to the slow hardware, the entire software/desktop experience isn't great. While everyone else has instant messengers, Linux doesn't have connected standby and emails and messages just don't arrive unless the screen is on. It wastes quite some power, and there are a bazillion small little quirks and annoyances and it's barely usable if compared to a regular smartphone. I think someone needs to invest quite some more time and money until this becomes a thing. I mean don't get me wrong, Linux and the low-level system is awesome. And it's brilliant on any server/laptop/desktop computer. It's just that there's so many things missing for a proper phone experience. And it's not just mildly inconvenient, but like people expect instant messages to be delivered...
It seems like you read the title as "everyone needs to switch to Linux mobile right now" but that's not what it says.
The point is, as you said, there's a lot of work that needs to be done, and that work is more important now than ever.
Sure. It's just that the timeframe is a bit disheartening. To me... so all of this is highly subjective. We had the Nokia N900 in like 2009. And I was expecting to live the full Linux experience within a few years and those things to become a bit more affordable. And today it's almost 16 years later and it doesn't feel like we've come substantially closer. More recently we had Librem and Pine64 put some effort and publicity into it, and that's also been 5 years. The mobile/touch desktops made some good progress. PostmarketOS is kind of nice. But there are entire layers missing like the app framework in Android which enables such app lifecycles, connected standby... Sandboxing and a fine-granular permission system for proprietary apps (or just modern mainstream usage) is kind of in its infancy. And I'm not even sure if everyone is going to use Flatpak for everything. And all of those missing things are huge undertakings.
So I'm not sure when to expect such an every-day phone... Maybe in 2030 or 2035? But that's kind of late if the headline is "more important now, than ever". Because all the while Google is moving more and more stuff from AOSP into their proprietary Play services and it's getting uncomfortable for me. We have a deadline with the Google messes with the allowed apps on a phone starting 2027. And my life includes more and more mandatory apps, or I have to forfeit taking part in society, culture, convenience or riding a train... This year, Google started giving the GrapheneOS devs a hard time... Now they're making it even more complicated.
So of course not everyone has to use it, and I'm first of all concerned with my own wellbeing. But I really don't see a solution in the near future which is going to address the important issues if today and the next few years. So I'm a bit unsure if a Linux phone will come around and help me before it's too late, or if I need to find other ways to deal with it.
True but I also never even considered it before because honestly open source Android works really great on most devices already. Now that that's all basically disappearing, hopefully more people will be more dedicated to creating an alternative.
Can you help me understand why Linux phones are the answer rather than a community maintained android fork?
Android is already fully featured and has a solid ecosystem so it's usable now, not in 5-10 years with less of a need for adjustment for the people who want to switch.
Basically, why take several steps backwards and start from scratch?
Because a community maintained fork wont solve the problems in the OP?
I strongly disagree with this comment. I'll answer your numbered points from the original post one by one with my perspective:
Do you disagree with any of these? Would love to hear your thoughts
Wow. Ok.
All "community driven forks" are based on Google's AOSP. None of them have the resources to develop this stuff from the ground up.
No but someone would sell Linux devices if they were commercially viable, and no one would buy a Linux device with a locked bootloader.
You wouldn't need it on Linux mobile because...it's not Android.
I already addressed this in OP.
So which is the best project to back?
I dunno! It will really require the participation of the entire community.
Gnome has been making great progress on the graphical front.
Notifications should be pretty simple, and probably should be provided by hardware manufacturers. But the support will need to be implemented into the apps that need them. That can potentially also fix the battery issue.
PostmarketOS I think is probably the most mature Linux mobile package currently but I'm no expert on the subject.
I'd argue that Ubuntu Touch and Sailfish are the most mature offerings. Both OSs are (or at least were at some point) developed as commercially viable alternatives to the duopoly. That gives them a headstart in terms of apps and overall pollish.
The postmarket shells are catching up, but you still get instructions like "drag and drop a file from your file manager to open it", which doesn't work on a phone. Phone UX still seems like an afterthought in many cases.
Postmarket OS is a desktop Linux system, but for phones. UT and Sailfish on the other hand are mobile OSs, that happen to use much of the same tech as desktop Linux. They are therefore much closer to the duopoly (for bettet or for worse).
Great, thanks! The next step would be to figure out if either is compatible with Syncthing and GPS-guided nav...
Syncthing:
Navigation:
Woohoo!! Now I can't decide between the two...
How cool would it be to out of nowhere see Valve come out with a SteamPhone based on Arch which does everything you ever hoped for and runs on high quality hardware including all the features that others took away (colour alert pixel, 3,5mm jack, replaceable battery), complete with dual boot or a containerised Android-mode for running apps that would never work like banking or eID. Would buy instantly.
comparison is the thief of joy and it's unrealistic to expect a product of grass roots community effort to compare to a product that benefits from deep pockets that can afford the finest talent and a considerably long head start.
I'm not sure. A phone is kind of a tool, same for a computer. Ideally we weigh our options (aka compare them) and pick which suits us best. And this grass roots effort isn't doing a half-assed job. I have almost everything available. I can do regular tasks, edit videos, do computer aided design, do heavy database stuff, run the bookkeeping for an entire mid-sized company, a server farm or almost anything I like with Free Software and Linux. I don't think a phone is fundamentally different and I kind of have the same high expectations for that niche. We're already doing great with lots of other things, both more niche and more ordinary stuff. And oftentimes it does not include money from tech giants.
Smart phones are simultaneously such a wonder of human engineering and have become such a disappointment of human greed.
This whole situation has made me just care less about my phone, and use it less in my life while I use Linux PCs much more.
I don't see my phone as a "computer" at this point, really. It's more of a communication appliance. If I'm launching an app that's not texting, calling, GPS, or music, it's probably a replacement for a website I'd normally use on a PC.
Linux phones could change this though. The idea of your PC being your docked phone would work great for most use cases. Unfortunately though, even though I would love it I don't really see the general public jumping at the chance to get back to the desktop experience. I could maybe see a little traction in the business world.
I found myself using my phone less and less too, and to be honest, I'm even feeling healthier mentally. Portable devices were supposed to improve our life, not make it worse. Big tech did something really terrible to phones :(
Oh same here! My reduced phone usage has been part of a much larger overall improvement in my well being and being able to live in the moment and be content.
I recently saw a video from a harvard dude talking about how we NEED to be bored. It's when we fall into our baseline mental state and start thinking through shit and figuring life out. And not doing that can lead to anxiety and depression and other bad shit. Given my experiences, I certainly cannot disagree.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=orQKfIXMiA8
I love hearing the individual specifics. All the variety and niches that make life interesting.
It's funny you mention getting back into Japanese, because my big focus this year has been rebuilding and upgrading my koi pond. It would be neat to learn the language, but knowing how I function I don't think it's in the cards for me.
Then for my more physical activities, that was carpentry and construction driven by the damn pond. :D
It's perfect for me though. I am a builder and creator to my core, and my career is in software and electronics, so outdoor wood working perfectly offsets that.
I hope you have fun as well, whether your account is deleted or not!
One note about the complaints and drama in response to your suggestions though: I see your instance is lemmy.ml and that fact alone will make a lot of people respond to you with hostility, regardless of what your personal political beliefs actually are.
And I don't know the latest of who is defederated with who, but you may also not even see some of the more decent communities.
This is pretty much how I am. Use my desktop for important things. On weekends I try to not even have my phone on my person and I check it a couple times a day while it stays in the bedroom like a house phone. Life is so much better without it.
I unfortunately still do like to take it with if walking/biking/driving but I wish I didn't. Id like to have another phone that only makes phone calls for that but has my same number. Its funny. When I was a kid we didn't even think about it because none of us had phones. Going on a random dirt bike ride miles away with nothing. Better (also unsafe) times.
Im tired of smartphones consuming everyone's minds.
Resisting the standard smartphone addiction just makes the addiction of some others so much more apparent. My own wife is still pretty badly shackled to hers.
My one friend cant stop staring at his when driving. He lives near me and sometimes I wave at him driving by and hes like I never even saw you. Like dude, youre a fucking idiot.
Anywhere there is freedom and thoughtful development there are corporations waiting to capitalize on it and ruin it.
the vast majority of commenters here either have no direct experience with a Linux phone or have seen some shallow youtube "review" of a dude swiping the same two screens left/right and extrapolate a buncha shit that has no contact with reality.
presently, and in the foreseeable future, linux phones aren't an android alternative, they are just linux on the phone, i.e. they allow you to do linux shit on a handheld device.
like, the bleeding edge version of any variant (plasma mobile, gnome, phosh) isn't even close to an Android phone from like 2015, let alone a modern one.
and that's before we touch on the pillars of mobile tech like fluidity, battery efficiency, reliability, etc., none of those things are even in a remotely passable state, not to mention - using the thing to make calls. you are better off forgetting about the camera, as well.
and the reason is simple, not only is there a gargantuan discrepancy between evil corp's resources and the predominantly unpaid enthusiasts, each dev team's reimplementing shit that's already solved on another platform. apple doesn't have to do that. google as well.
then there's the idea that the javascript-backed Gnome - that has issues running fluidly on super-capable hardware - is the basis on a low-power device on which the linux mobile phone experience is built. reinventing solved shit, but in a stupid way - THREE FINGER swipe on a phone, really?
although there's a solid app base, the apps that are supposedly mobile friendly are few and far between, most are just downright unusable on a vertical screen and dog help you if launch an electron app. firefox, even with pmOS patches (useless without) is tiresome to use. you can forget about dating, ubering, banking, or even just using a messenger everybody else does.
if you're squeamish about flashing custom recoveries and ROMs, the e.g. pmOS install process is way, way, way more involved and failure prone. if you go with ubuntu touch or mobian, even more so.
finally, if you're talking about a device that you've grown accustomed to to the extent that you're using it subconsciously, swiping and multitasking and such whilst walking and dodging other pedestrians - no such thing exists over here.
I'm just tying this up because I keep reading about "switching", people are either delusional or misinformed, there's nothing (yet) to switch to.
get a couple of $50 ex-flaghips to play with, flash lineageOS on one and pmOS on the other and that should hold you over for a coupla years.
I'll consider a Linux phone as long as the following are met:
If these are met, I'll buy whatever is available in a year or two.
This one requirement I believe to be already met. Mobile kde, for one, is pretty nice. I believe the bottleneck of linux phones are really in the hardware
UX is more than the UI, it's the entire User Experience (UX). That means scaled down desktop apps are not good substitutes for proper Mobile apps.
Google and Facebook will cooperate. WhatsApp will never work reliably.
Use the web version, although you'll need a phone to authenticate.
Better yet, move out of whatsapp (i know, network effect).
There's also some whatsapp clients on flathub that claim to support linux mobile. Matrix bridges are also available.
Yeah, I wish the Pine phone battery life was a bit better. Who knows, maybe it's improved since I last tried it
Send me back to the 90s with the flip phone. Old Nokia with a changeable battery, no malicious firmware that has spyware built in. It's just a phone.
Yep, I tried going the dumbphone route and lasted about a month. I travel a fair bit for work, and it's almost impossible now without a smartphone.
I get by alright without a smart phone. Over the years I've seen more and more "just scan this QR code to do such-and-such", and I ignore them. I think you're right that it is a lot of added friction compared to using a phone. A lot of stuff is instantly at your fingertips with your phone.
But to be honest, I really truly think that a bit of friction is a good thing. Without it, we just slide helplessly into oblivion. Or, less metaphorically speaking, the friction turns an automatic decision into a deliberate one. The friction pushes people to think about their actions and choices a little bit. And that's generally a good thing - even if its a little bit harder.
Sure about that?
spyware in a 90s phone ? Where it was even a miracle to be able to connect to Internet ? Yeah, they were able to pinpoint your position using the cell towers (which were less than today so not that precise) and the telecom know who and when you were calling but other than that...
Trust devices that are open and run open firmwares not old devices
True but I was only pointing out that what is a problem in modern smartphone was not a problem in older dumb phone since they lack the functionalities (and the supporting infrastructure)
You are assuming it wasn't a problem back then
It is a little difficult to spy on phone owner (except knowing where the phone is located) when everything you have is SMS and a memory measured in Kb, leaving aside that every phone had its own firmware incompatible with everyone else.
Of course telecom companies always know where you were and who you call, like today, but at most they can tap and read the SMS.
For context, GPRS was rolled out around 2001, before that you basically have not any data connection if not plugging to the phone an external modem.
That's just all electronics outside of Linux at this point.
My next phone will be a ThinkPad because it has a SIM card slot.
You didn't solve any problems, you just opted out of a whole bunch of features.
Walking away does not solve the problem. It just makes it no longer your problem. Everyone else still has to deal with it. Not everyone has that privilege.
If we all stopped the world would adapt. The council let the street signs rot because everyone is on gmaps, restaurants stopped having menus just qr codes, places in England were you get kicked out if you insist to pay by cash.
All of it would be reversed if.. we reversed A pipe dream but weirder things happened
Okay well let me know when you get everyone to stop. Until then...
They did reverse the cash ting at the pub, every day a different customer would have a proper argument about it. Don't ask why I was there everyday tho
It's a pub. I think there should be no questions 🤣
Yes and no. Some of us actually need our phones to accomplish things. Work, primarily. As people mentioned elsewhere, simple things like accessing their banking accounts. I wish we didn't, but we do.
They're not doing it by choice. The phone is used as mandatory authentication to access the account.
...and how do you suppose your laptop is immune from this? Or your desktop, even?
I'm not avoiding anything. What you fail to understand is that not everyone's situation is the same as yours. For some of us, these things are outside of our control.
He did solve a problem, his problem. What's the deal with thinking everything that applies to you applies to others?
No problems were solved.
That's your best answer? "No problems we're solved because I said so"? 🤣🤣🤣
No wonder you sound so angry here, lol.
No problems were solved because they weren't solved. I know that may be hard for you to wrap your head around.
It is, very.
2 weeks? That's awesome. SM6115 and 2300mAh. My Lenovo P11 with LineageOS(GSI) also has a SM6115 with much bigger battery and only gives about 4 days idle.. Are you using some technique for longer battery time?
Cool, not sure why it doesn't work for me :/ I only turn on wifi about once a week to sync new books from my server since I use it as an offline ebook reader.
Haven't had a pixel 3, but do have a pixel 2. Running stock rom because verizon and degoogled with adb and wifi off, only used for occasional quick photo shoots. The battery also only goes for about 3 days.
😬 I'm writing this on my pixel 3... What happened??
My wife's pixel 3 just busted without any warning a few years ago. PLEASE be sure to have backups of your things and passwords. At the time they didn't remember their password and was only logged in on their phone. We were able to recover through my email but it wasn't a recovery address so it was really scary.
The worst part is we already had a family password manager they weren't using, so it was very difficult to not make it seem like an "I told you so" moment, but they're on it now and have backups and stuff.
But yeah. We took it to some phone repair guy and he tried a bunch of different stuff. The motherboard just failed or something. No way to extract anything. He said it happened a lot with that model (well, he's only seeing the bad ones but still).
Ubuntu Touch has a planned release for September 24th! Eager to see what devices have a full compatibility rating to know what I'll buy next
Check out postmarketOS, a real Linux distro for phones with a 10-year life cycle goal and mainline kernel support. It’s not daily-driver ready for everyone, but it frees you from Google and OEM lockdowns. If we want an open mobile future, this is the project worth supporting.
Framework has the chance to do something really funny...
Would love to see it but that sounds significantly more difficult.
I wonder what a SIM modem expansion card would look like
I've seen them before but so far none first-party.
Hold up, there are third-party SIM card expansions‽
I don't have a Framework laptop (yet) but once I've got the money together I really want one!
Looking it up, there's a discussion on Framework's Discourse, but nothing shipping yet.
The best hope at the moment is to buy and connect an LTE M.2 key card that connects over USB-A, which would work on any laptop, come to think of it.
Yeah there's nothing shipping. The ones I've seen were DIY.
Yeah I wish Framework, Tuxedo or Stillbook produced a Linux phone🤞
They'd have a better chance banding together with other companies and communities and pool resources into one device/os combo.
I have a Pixel 9 Pro which is supposed to get security updates until 2031 but at the pace Google is closing Android down I wonder if it will even be viable to stay on an AOSP degoogled ROM until then.
I feel like the future is leading us to a place where we will have to reduce our mobile computing to a trusted but slow and unreliable main phone while keeping a secondary mainstream device for banking/government apps.
I also think disconnecting the concepts of "pocket computer" and "always-on two way radio with location tracking and internet connectivity" are things you could put in different physical devices.
Just gotta work out how to get internet on the pocket computer, so I can do mobile banking and cab bookings on the go.
Currently i am looking for a Jolla phone https://commerce.jolla.com/products/jolla-community-phone
They are private company but seems to be very user friendly and carefull with their dev community. What do you think about them folks?
I’m about a tech zero skill but I am at Lemmy for THIS news. Thank you for resisting complete shitification hegemony. Resist!
Got me worried (bc i have a newish oneplus phone) but apparently OnePlus is only doing that in China for now. Still not a good sign for the future...
The main problem is that mobile OS is simply not useful without banking or government apps and they won't ever appear on FOSS systems because giving control to user is exactly the opposite of what's in their interest.
I don't understand why people need banking apps on their phone. I only ever access my banking info from the PC...
2fa with a banking app, a lot of banks work that way
That's insane. They don't have TOTP? Or Passkeys? Or (God forbid) SMS or email verification? The only 2FA option is using their shitty app? I think I'd rather switch banks...
It became hard to do that in my country. I changed banks twice in a year because they became shit but even the third one uses its app as 2fa. At least it is a better bank...
None of my banks (a couple French and Belgian ones) seem to support anything but auth via app. Can't log in on my computer without my phone.
I know Credit Mutuel can provide you a physical card with a bunch of codes of which one is selected at random at auth time
Had family use it because they had a Huawei phone
Interesting! Maybe it's worth switching banks, at least once I get the courage to move to Linux mobile.
Vancity credit union uses standard TOTP. But RBC uses their stupid app where I live.
and you can do it from your phone too using a browser other than android-chrome or ios-safari.
In Sweden many parts of society requires an app called BankID. We authenticate getting mail packages, sign contracts, book a time in health care, etc with this app. It's needed everywhere. Buying a bus ticket. A phone without this app is not sufficient to function in swedish society.
Sounds a bit dystopian
A little bit yes, since the BankID is owned by private companies. There are those who are working on a free software version and some people think that the government should have an official authentication app free from private interests. But it's been hard to make people aware and care about these issues. It's like the xkcd worlds smallest open source violin. At the same time, many things that relate to proving that I am me has become very convenient in this society. For example I moved to a new apartment and they just sent a link to the contract and I signed it with the app and that was that, I did my taxes by just checking that the info they had was correct and signed it on my phone, etc.
Aren't you able to get a dongle for 2fa like in Denmark? We have MitID but you can easily get a dongle so you don't need a phone
Yes, true. But then you need to carry an extra device. I know it's just inconvenience.
Interesting. I'm an online notary. I sign papers with essentially an encrypted certificate from my Linux PC.
I had nothing but problems with banking apps. Can't do anything if location is off, or it doesn't like your IP, or if it thinks you have rooting software installed. And if it doesn't work right, no one at the bank knows how to help. I just stopped using them, eventually.
If only banks could figure out how security works...
In my country, for all the banks I use, I need to have an app on my phone to access their website with my Linux computer.
So a Linux phone would need to provide this as I can’t be without access to my accounts.
Wat.
thats pretty common, in my country as well.
like a two factor authentication. but without TOTP. but with a proprietary app by the bank provided.
Ohhh right. Yeah that's weird. Like I said elsewhere, I would find a new bank if I had that problem.
Yeah it’s part of the 2 factors authentification process.
Back in the days you received some card reader generating a code, but that ain’t the case anymore..
So Linux would need to have a native version of these apps or a way to efficiently emulate Android or iOS.
Those card readers are called TOTP and we can do that with apps now. Not like the specific app in question but just like a standard password manager that stores all your TOTPs.
I didn’t know this. But I guess the bank has to allow it.
Last time I checked my banks were only allowing you to do such things through an app or at the bank (which is far from my village).
If it is what the user wants, then it is a factor for adoption. It is a hard sell to say "yes it can only perform half the stuff you usually do with a phone, but you don't need that anyways". It comes across as condescending, too.
My intent is not to be condescending. It is to make people aware of the fact that they have a choice: They can choose to subject themselves to increasingly-closed and exploitative platforms, or they can choose the extremely minor (I would argue non) inconvenience of using the browser or another computer to access their banking information.
it's not really a need, it's more an imposition. we're forced to do everything via the app
Convenience and the ability to back outside the comforts of my own home.
Many cheaper online banks rely on their mobile app. Your debit card will not work wirhout an in-app confirmation. There's no web interface ("not secure enough").
Can I switch banks and make my life less convenient? Sure. Would I do it just to stick it to google? No.
Which is an odd take as when I statted using "smart phones" not a singke.one supported apps from banks or government,.yet here we arw.
I'll switch away from Android when there's a good alternative, but I'm not very technical and need something with a nice GUI and an easy installation process. Hopefully Linux will offer something like that someday, but I don't think it's there yet.
My next phone will be a Linux phone.
I was on board the Fairphone hype, and while I think they have a good message, I actually think Pine64 does exactly what they do - just without the flashy marketing. Fairphone still uses AOSP as the basis for their OSes, so there is still a risk of hardware lockout by Google. This is leaving alone other issues like no headphone jack and USB 2.0 for the latest generation's USB-C.
This is actually the same reason I think Ecosia won't succeed in the long term unless they build their own search engine. Luckily it looks like they've already started delivering results as of last month.
I should also mention that the PinePhone isn't Scott free from criticism either. Think I read somewhere that the camera is borked because the latest firmware or software update messed with the camera module functionality. No real fix for that soon, which sucks.
I don't get it. I've never been addicted to my phone. It's just something I can look stuff up on listen to music and maybe remote to my server. Oh also navigation I used that every day when working.
Is funny, if you talk about an iPod or even cds nowadays people think youre about 10,000 years old. There was literally nothing wrong with that tech and it kept us away from corpo prying eyes and social media addiction.
Realistically, i think this idea might work well in tandem with a sort of PDA built off a Pi. I use my phone as a computer, because its a computer. The parts of my phone that i need to be a phone are calls and text, as i dont take photos almost ever. Data is nice, but im fairly certain i had seen recently a sim module for Pi devices, so i can just bake it into that instead so i still have a mobile computer.
Someone will eventually make a better phone OS, but in the short term it seems smart to move to a dumb phone and offset everything else to a device tou can actually control.
Exactly what they do, except it's not a functional product. "Overpriced, underpowered, and half-finished" is the motto of pine64.
I'm in the same exact boat.
At some point when Google kills custom ROMs, everyone working on customs ROMs won't have anywhere else to go other than a Linux phone.
More than the camera : 24hrs of battery life tops is what you should expect.
I don't agree!
A linux phone, or any other open source alternative, has ALWAYS been more important than the ones we've got. Being locked into an eco-system, has always been bad for the regular user. It's about companies controlling people and the market, and it should never have to be a choice between a rock and a hard place.
I really wish that the Firefox phone had gained more support. And I wish that there will soon be a linux-phone for the regular person, all over the world.
But I guess people in general keep choosing to lock themselves in, by using Google and Apple...
There's still hope with AOSP. I could see something coming out of that before a Linux platform is ready.
Like what?
Like a fully open source Android ROM.
We already have it (LineageOS etc), the problem is that the hardware they run on (reflashed unlocked android phones) are disappearing and the whole android ecosystem with proprietary 3rd party software is getting more restrictive.
That wouldn't solve 2, 3, or 4.
for 4 Linux would also kind have the same problem as a 3rd party ROM, (almost) no one is making mobile apps for Linux
Sure, there are a lot of desktop apps, but most don't have a mobile UI in mind
Linux has all kinds of problems but none of them are fundamental the same way that Android is.
You're saying that an Android without any Google/Samsung/Xiaomi/OnePlus interference wouldn't solve the problems introduced by Google/Samsung/Xiaomi/OnePlus?
No that's not what I said. I'm saying there is no Android without Google.
I thought they already gutted much of AOSP. Like removing the dialer or contacts and stuff.
My first thought was that a hard-fork of AOSP would be a much better solution than a Linux phone. But when you have locked down hardware, it doesn't matter, because you simply can't install it.
I still think a community fork of AOSP would be more efficient than Linux mobile.
I just hope that this time we go Free Software and not committing the mistake of going Open Source for a 3rd time (BSD/UNIX AT&T; Android/Google). Unless we want to fall with the same stone yet once more.
Android going Open Source allowed Google to close Android once it got mature. It's a Trojan Horse, yet people still go Open Source and then complain when some company closes their source.
Definitely going to be trying for some kind of linux phone for my next one.
Debating biting the bullet on the ~$800 cost of a fairphone.
I was looking into Fairphone and got sketched out, they do not really seem particularly trustworthy or competent.
For example: https://discuss.grapheneos.org/d/24134-devices-lacking-standard-privacysecurity-patches-and-protections-arent-private
Oof
i know it is still google, but i just started searching ebay for a used pixel 9 - looks like they are around $400-500 (pixel 10 came out last month). i figure getting graphene os on one of these may be an inexpensive path forward... still looking for good options, tho.
i'll have to check out fairphone. i remember something about them not being available in the US, but that may be old news.
There's a distributor, Murena, selling the Fairphone 4 and Fairphone 6 in the U.S. now. The Fairphone isn't fully usable with Linux yet, though. Calls, camera, and GPS all still apparently aren't working 100% with postmarket OS. I'm not aware of any other distribution that does any better. https://wiki.postmarketos.org/wiki/Category:Fairphone
oof, no wifi is kind of a dealbreaker for me; i have a home server and really dont want to have to be VPN'd into my home all the time :(
looks like fairphone 6 doesnt have much support on postmarket yet, but i'll keep an eye on it - ty <3
Yeah, I don't think the Fairphone 6 is quite ready. In fact, since none of the previous Fairphone models ever got to full Linux usability, I don't really expect it to happen.
I think the best option -- and really the only option -- right now is the Furilabs FLX1. I'm planning on getting one soon.
I want one, too, as soon as the second batch is available. I hope there are some left after all the pre-orders are sent out.
Ubuntu Touch supports the FP4 & FP5 quite well: https://devices.ubuntu-touch.io/
Oh nice! That is very encouraging.
tl;dr: buy a second hand pixel 8 and install GrapheneOS. It's Android, but it will get you through a few years while you wait for postmarketOS to become viable as a daily driver.
Imagine if vendors like Anbernic started shipping devices that had phone hardware supported with open software. That would be so rad. They already run android and Linux and have a vibrant community.
This thing looks like it has all the hardware you need to make a cheap cell phone...
I think the biggest thing lacking in this kind of hardware is displays. Where can you find a phone-sized 1080p display that doesn't require signing some NDA or reverse engineering the specs? OLED would be even better for battery life.
I don't see that probably 360p black-or-white e-ink display is going to be a good experience unless you're comparing it to a flip phone.
Flip phone would be a similar market. But this would be better.
I mean, you could approximate a phone with a lot of SBCs out there right now, if you stuck a screen onto it. A lot of them even have SIM modules. If somebody wanted to go full hacker you could probably 3D print a case for something like a Banana Pi, stick a cheap touchscreen OLED panel in there and Frankenstein up a battery. Would be a lot of work though and I’m sure getting all the shit working would be nontrivial.
Many people on r/cyberdeck had made something similar. Now I'm wondering if there's one on lemmy too..
Yeah and it'd be thicc as fuck and completely ridiculous to carry around. Wouldn't even fit in your pocket. At least this is compact and doesn't have sharp edges and wires hanging out trying to unalive itself.
But think of the street cred!
Lol. Even this $100 phone can get a headphone jack but the massively-funded Android OEMs aside Sony can’t offer this feature.
I would like to move away from Android and iOS. But I'm not sure it's really feasible. Hell, I might even have to move fully to iOS, because that's what the wife uses. That's the challenge with Linux or alternative OSes on mobile. It goes against the purpose of the device - it needs to be able to interact with the people in your life.
Because I have Android and she has an iPhone, we can't easily share headphones (her AirPods or my generic ones) or some of the other accessories. For instance, I don't want a device without a 3.5mm jack, so none of my headphones work for her. About the only thing we can share is the USB-C cable, and it's less efficient on my device. We have to use Google Maps to share location, the built-in functions don't talk. We have to use regular SMS and calls or Discord to talk, because FaceTime and iMessage don't have compatible Android software. I love her with all my heart - and frankly speaking she's worth more to me than software advocacy.
That's what causes ecosystem lock-in. As Sartre said, Hell is other people.
That's not a "challenge" that linux can ever overcome. The only way to overcome that is to ask your wife to switch to a device that's respectful of you and her and everyone else.
I find it extremely irritating that so many people see other devices and "well I can't interact with them the way I want to so I'd better join them and contribute to the problems so I can also not interact with other people on free systems".
Okay. Give me a Linux phone that works out of the box that suits the following dealbreakers:
Compatibility with iMessage and FaceTime. This is essential because my wife, my MIL, and other family members all use it. I can't be expected to change everyone over, I need to be compatible with the majority. I might be able to convert them over time, but it's going to be gradual.
Always-on location information sharing with location data pulled from both GPS & terrestrial sources.
Full support for Bluetooth devices, especially the ANC function of AirPods or similar (oh, and support for my mother's hearing aid app).
OS-level support for telephony and SMS + MMS + RTC messaging. With software that has an instantly usable UI.
A deep repository of trusted software with clear and easy UX that doesn't require adjustment - it all needs to "just work".
Those are the dealbreakers for me.
Wait, aren't we on here due to privacy?
Privacy is relative. I need my wife to know where I am and vice-versa.
Interesting, you must have quite the mobile work or something.
She does. And I can't drive, so I take mass transit, which makes her worry for my safety.
Dang, yeah, that makes sense!
Yes, thank you for laying out a great roadmap for the future.
That's the issue. It's a great set of goals, but I need to be able to make my wife happy today. Long-term plans for the future are all well and good, but we live in the present. So at the moment, Android is the most open compromise I can make.
Listen, if you want to continue to contribute value to companies that want to fuck you at every turn because you can't be bothered to find other ways to overcome minor inconveniences, that's your prerogative. You're just like most people.
Once again, this is never going to happen. And this is NOT essential. To anyone. Not even a little bit. Ask your family members to use a different platform. There are HUNDREDS of messaging apps that all do the same fucking thing but aren't behind Apple's Walled Garden. If they can't be bothered, then it must not be important. I ask my friends and family to message me on Signal and most of them don't have a problem with it.
True, there are many ways to make video calls these days that already work on Linux.
Are any of them as user-friendly and accessible as FaceTime? The people in my life (myself included most days) value good UX over technical genius.
Wait make ur wife happy because of these devices? That insane how u guys were living 20 years ago let not pretend that this devices bring something really important that was not possible to do in old way in the past ,they gave just some alternative way to do stuff including all ur things u said.I am so glad that my family don't understand anything in tech in such things and using just usual phone calls and for video they using something like telegram
We were teenagers 20 years ago, is how.
Like you, I value my relationships and by extension my mental health more than which messaging app I use.
I hate Meta with a passion and them acquiring Whatsapp is probably the most disappointing acquisition of all time to me, but I'm going to continue using it because my wife, family in Latin America, and world friends all use it. And being lonely and out of touch isn't worth the satisfaction of knowing my data isn't being scraped to me. Others in these threads always seems to disagree here, and they're free to do that but it's not a lifestyle I'm interested in.
I'm making changes where I can; I self host a server for my media, photos, files. I'm going to install Graphene on my phone soon. I'm interested in picking up a cheaper older phone to try a Linux mobile OS on. I have my phone auto connect to my pihole to block trackers when I'm out of the house, etc. But I know as soon as it's something I have to inconvenience others with, it's not going to work.
Pick your battles.
I might be a dick for pointing it out, but the willingness to switch tech ecosystems for a spouse should really go both ways
You're not a dick for saying it. But switching and losing daily driven features isn't really something I think is fair. And that's why I would be the one to change. I'd probably just keep the apple device on hotspot mode and use the Android as a tablet and VOIP call/text device.
By the way, outside of our brawl down below, I do agree with you 100% that having a fully functional and modern Linux phone would be an amazing thing to have.
At this point, the "best" solution might be buying one of those SBC (single board computers) that also has an android image, like orangePi or ODroid and "build" the rest of the phone on top of it. Might be the only way people can get a screen smaller than 6" as well. I say Android in this case because it has access to all the apps without needing emulation or Waydroid
OOOOORRRRR, just buy an used older phone that you know is easy to unlock and install a custom rom. Did that with a motorola G6, am happy with lineage. Not the fastest phone by a long shot, especially as newer versions of many apps just introduce more bloat because fuck you, but perfectly usable for messaging and video watching. Also has a headphone jack!
Lets just load a e sim on the steamdeck and call it a day
Yes. Need the kind of love desktop hardware got for Linux with mobile hardware. I don't need tap to pay and mobile deposit. That can come when the ball really gets rolling and the user base is too large to not service. For now I'd be happy with consistent phone/text support, signal application, a mobile Firefox, and the phone dockable to run full desktop applications. Strong enough hardware. Google are a bunch of jackasses. Need more phones to support PostmarketOS or something
Most apps I can replace with a web browser but the mass market has shown it's preference for an app store. Got to get payments integrated into Flathub
I'm in a similar position. My next phone will be a Linux device I just hope I can install Signal everything else I can do on my pc instead even if it's less convenient
I have been wanting a Linux phone for ages but I can't afford a librem and pine seems to have stalled out. Just found out about Furi and now I'm wondering if it really is that good. It's still expensive but it at least doesn't look like it'd choke on running a calculator app.
Have you looked at the state of how open source smartphone os projects are funded? Seems like not enough people think it is currently important. i saw no bump in funding since the announcement. I would say the best bet is trying to help one of these projects with fundraising and trying to educate or convince enough people it is worth investing in. and obviously donate if you can. Although to be honest even i don't do that (i think i invest enough in FOSS).
Once i bought a phone i tried to pick one that is friendly for FOSS projects and went with a pixel (which grapheneos recommended). so voting or signaling with your wallet is an option.
I also think something like codeberg. where anyone can be a member if he pays fees that help fund the organisation and democratically elect a board that decides what to fund could be helpful. codeberg has a pretty good organic growth so that is encouraging but i don't know if there is enough interest in that.
Right there’s too many people shooting down the Linux phone concept within this thread 😔
indeed, android has been a shit show for the last couple of months and its not looking good
Are there any Linux mobile OSs that do not use a compatibility layer with Android underneath it?
I tried Ubuntu Touch a couple of years ago and couldn't get mobile data working with UK provider but apart from that it was very cool.
Yes, Ubuntu Touch is one of them. I listed more elsewhere.
I just bought the Fairphone 6 with /e/os. I am pleasantly surprised with how many apps work just fine.
I've been a mobile dev for many years, I fell in love with the Nokia 810 with maemo which kinda got me started, but I never had one myself. I moved to OpenMoko and saved to buy a Neo. But then Android became big with Google's support and all companies rushing to have an alternative to iOS with the iPhone. Back then when Android meant openness. As much as I loved the openmoko project it had plenty of issues as a daily driver, so eventually I cracked and moved to Android with a Galaxy S2, ah, the innocence back then when one could think Google was actually different... Actually doing good and creating a great Linux phone.
I absolutely agree on all your points. It is time to kill Android as a free/open source idea if it is not dead yet. And you know what, Linux is absolutely ready to substitute anything as a mobile platform. It needs more polishing in terms of UI but Maemo nearly 20 years ago already offered a great UX IMO. Thank you Microsoft and all Nokia management for destroying it.
Now, I say Linux as a mobile platform is ready... But we all know it doesn't lack problems. What are those? The problems come from anticompetitive practices, locked hardware for chips, drivers and so on, specially all related to phone networking. The other main problem is apps which is only a small issue with all the ways there are available to make android apps run on Linux, that is... Until google comes to fuck things up with the points #3 and #4 you make. Those are the biggest threats right now, and it's no wonder Google is doing that. They are preventing the possibility of competition arising. Like I said, I have been a dev for many years, it absolutely sucks the path all tech is taking. But there are solutions, just need to have proper anticompetitive practices and protections... At least in Europe we kinda do, but more needs to be done.
The main point is, Linux as an alternative is kinda ready, if only there was a real posible competition to be had outside of being incredibly rich.
I really want one but I dont think I can live with it daily. Too much shit relies on phones now. Linux is perfect for my desktop and I never need windows, but I dont think a linux phone is gonna work for my banking or investment apps
Banks allow me to login via their web interface, send money to a BSB + Account Number or even a PayID (email / phone number) but using their app to do just the same is too far?
It's total rubbish, honestly I've resurrected my OG ridge wallet and am planning on installing Graphene on my P7P to skirt the phone payment trap.
I was one of the few in Australia to test Google wallet (thanks for the free cash google) and thought it was the bees knees. It's a fucking long con and fuck I feel dumb for falling into it.
Worst still my drivers licence is a phone app, so are my work certificates and probably a bunch of other shit that I'll only realize later.
I guess fuck around and find out shows its ugly face eventually.
Phone apps are a pet peeve of mine. Most apps are just websites wrapped up in the ASAR archive format. Instead of spending all this extra money to build an app, just make your original website responsive.
I switched back to banking at a branch years ago, and I love it. Money gets into my account so much faster when I deposit a check at a bank vs online.
Ahh we don't really use cheques here in Aus. Payments being electronic doesn't worry me, pay lands in my account the same day it's processed, sometimes the following day if the accountants miss the deadline.
Sending someone money is generally instant using PayID, without fees too.
I use neobanks (no physical branches) so as long as their web interface works well enough for me, and I can use my own 2FA (not SMS based) ill be happy as a pig in mud.
Just wait and see if the climate turns to no physical cards in the next 5 - 10 years...
That sounds nice. Banking in the US is slow. Do you have something like shared ATMs for physical currency deposits, or is that also not used anymore?I can't imagine us going no-card, but it sounds like your system is already most of the way there.
Not around here but the major banks in my area still allow for note / change deposits into accounts. They even have coin hoppers in some still, great for cleaning out the glovebox / centre console.
Been a while since I've used one as I generally take my change into work and convert it into notes there :D
It's crazy to see the downturn in cash going through pubs, I've been in the industry for 20 years and remember when I'd started most transactions were physical money, these days on a busy night I'll count the 7 tills we have and maybe end up with 3k in cash takings. (not including the pokies for obvious reasons).
Hi, I've just registered here to bring an addition to the conversation that hasn't been mentioned yet: Droidian.
It's a Debian-based distro that can run on a number of Android phones, and it uses Halium technology to utilize the Android device drivers, but on top of those, it provides a complete Debian+Phosh experience!
On well-supported devices the performance is just like native Android, with camera support and almost everything seems to work. Waydroid also provides a full Android system if needed, again, with good performance.
In my view, this project can pave the way for Linux development for smartphones, as the user interacts with a standard Phosh desktop environment, so new apps can also be developed for the platform without the need of specialized hardware such as the Pinephone.
A good option for this could be the Thinkphone by Motorola device (codename bronco), as it is officially supported, has a good battery and a pretty recent SoC (SD8+Gen1) compared to most devices supported by Droidian/Ubuntu Touch/PostmarketOS. In my region it can be had for ~€250 brand new. When most other supported devices are Poco F1/Pixel 3a era, this is can be huge for smartphone Linux enthusiasts. Also, it's officialy supported by LineageOS as well.
Another device, that's even better supported by Droidian but pricier, is the Furilabs FLX1.
What I really hope for is a way to install linux on any mobile device, be it Samsung, Google, One Plus or whatever, like we do with Linux… with linux it doesn’t matter which brand is your laptop… it always works, and if we can replicate that it means true freedom and also it means linux mobile phones are gonna be more fun and broader than desktop computers… cuz everyone uses smart phones.
I'm probably going to spam this around a bit, since most people don't seem to know about it, but a reminder that FuriLabs has a (GNU+)Linux phone with decent spec.s and the ability to run Android app.s (from what I've heard) pretty decently: https://furilabs.com/
Biggest drawback is it's based on Halium. Usual growing pains of a new product/company apply but apparently the company is pretty responsive and their dev.s have worked with customers to get things like calling working with the carrier and bands of their country where it hasn't worked before so improvements move pretty quickly.
Collection of different experiences I've variously seen online over the last year or so:
I don't own one, myself, so I can't give any personal experience but I've seen it around for a few years now but most people don't seem to even know about it. Maybe there's a reason for that? But none I've ever seen anyone say.
Valve could do it. I imagine they would make a gaming tablet first though
Haha yeah, probably. Honestly I'm shocked they don't have an Android store like Epic. But I digress.
Make a beefy gaming phone with the steam store!
I got a Sailfish OS last year seeing the writing on the wall already with all the bootloader locking. It’s been bumpy to put it lightly, but at least it has Android apps to help get over the gaping holes of basic missing apps like a halfway decent XMPP client. …But at least native WhisperFish lets you get around the lack of Signal on most non-duopoly platforms.
What phones do you recommend for linux then?
It would be cool to see people move beyond the standard smartphone and into some sort of hotspot and linux based palmtop or umpc like setup
I had something like that in the early 2000s with a nokia n800 and it worked well enough I'm sure it would be even better now
Would a pixel phone running GOS be future proofed, or one day Google can just push out some hidden updates that prevent you from running it at all?
So what is our alternative? I get that we need to start working on an actual viable open platform, but it seems like the difficulty is mostly hardware and device manufacturers locking the bootloader at this point, isn't it? So is that where we need to go? To make the "Raspberry Pi" of mobile phones?
I'm happy to help, I just don't have the free time to spearhead a whole project.
The problem with them is that they're only available on their respective site. And so they have limited exposure. If they were available at a local store, then the people would notice them. Same with Fairphones, Frameworks and with any brand that is pro-environment.
I should probably go get a replacement screen for my old OnePlus 3T, while I still can...
I wholeheartedly agree. More so: I do not only think, we will need a new, open mobile platform, but also feel such a great urge for it myself, that I will migrate to something alternative as soon as my mobile phone reached its EOL. I don't know how exactly that will look like, but I am eager to accept every inconvenience to escape un-free big tech.
Is it possible to have my normal shitty samsung for stuff that wont work on a linux phone, and have like a pinephone for simple calls and stuff, but have them both use the same phone # ? I doubt.
Cuz when hiking or something I like a phone for safety but I dont want distractions.
There are already some very cool-looking Linux cyberdecks.
What does this have to do with this discussion?
Cyberdecks are 1) pocketable 2) computing devices 3) often wireless, and 4) run Linux.
That's what people want from phones, so I figured it was a valid contribution to the discussion.
I guess not...
That does not look remotely pocketable...
Yes it does.
Oh ok, sorry
Not relevant to this thread. However, I didn't know what a cyberdeck was and there are indeed some very cool-looking ones. :)
The discussions here are quite passionate so a bit of a reality check :
"PineStore has also discontinued the PinePhone Pro which was talked about in the last recent blog post. TLDR, sales were low". https://pine64.org/2025/08/16/august_2025/#pinephone-pro-discontinuation
So... people here say they do want one, but clearly not like that one.
Also recently the crowd funding of https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/liberux-nexx--3 barely reached 10% of €1,434,375 Fixed Goal with just 135 backers.
So... also clearly not that one either.
So what accelerated development do people not just want to claim they do want, but actually pay for?
Is identity verification for publishing android apps that bad? Both the app store and play store already have your billing information since you have to pay to publish an app anyway right?
I’ve been thinking about this and I wonder if Linux can have more success if we have pocket computers that gradually add phone functions instead of trying to have phone hardware work with a system that isn’t made for phone-like experience in general.
I'm also owner of SailfishOS phone there are some issues though but OS is great :)
While I support the continued progress of real Linux phones, have a Pinephone, and even wasted all of yesterday trying to make a working build of Armbian for retro handheld I have; I think it's more practical to focus on open Android distributions, getting more phones out that can support multi os's and buying those, and growing a robust app market system that can compete with Google Play.
F-Droid is almost there, but being open-source doesn't mean something has to be free of charge. F-Droid should be extended, or possibly an additional app manager be established, that still promotes software freedom and privacy, but allows for devs to charge for their apps as well.
i still think that the Linux Mobile ecosystem is bad(even worse then Desktop Linux), i want it to happen and become as good as Desktop Linux.
also i am pretty sure Google cannot fully get rid of AOSP, especially Android is put on any phone that isn't Google.
tho even before the Goolog fuckery these things where there.
Samsung required a a leaked program to Unlock its bootloader(Odin which is proprietary), and would trip Knox.
Xiaomi required a wait time to unlock its bootloader, and the unlocking bootloader thingy is proprietary.
Banking apps wouldnt work with root and stuff, even before the Play Integrity API forcing thingy.
Meh, this will just push more people to not install gapps. None of these issues affect folks who don't install gapps.
The best apps are on fdroid, anyway. If I was a Dev I wouldn't bother putting it on Google play, anyway
Buy Nothing Phones.... Un-lockable bootloader without need to even ask for it, very lite and clean AOSP derivate android flavour.
That doesn't solve any of the problems I listed.
It does. Unlock bootliader, flash lineage or just uninstall all Google apps and services.
Sure doesn't.
Got a link? Buy Nothing is a national upcycling program in the US, haha.
There you go:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nothing_(company)
Oh, I thought the phrase here was "Buy Nothing."
Ill address your issues with Android and then ill give my issues with mobile Linux:
::: spoiler 1
Yeah this is bad but not even devastating for custom roms like GOS or LineageOS ::: ::: spoiler 2
I highly doubt Google would lock the bootloader, they still make the most friendly devices for custom roms (yes even after all they have done). Also Samsung hasnt acturally allowed custom roms for a while now while Xiaomi doesn't either. ::: ::: spoiler 3
Even if a developer used the Play Integrity API it doesn't mean custom roms or other operating systems like GOS arent supported. I use GOS and have had no issues with play integrity, there are no incentives to require a certified Android device. ::: ::: spoiler 4
Sideloading isnt going anywhere and tbh I doubt this will be strongly enforced, Google will always have the threat of root resurfacing. You dont even need root to get rid of Google Play services and install MicroG. ::: ::: spoiler Conclusion
That seems highly unlikely, even with everything Google has done the fact is AOSP is the only mature open source mobile project. ::: Now ill get to my issues with mobile Linux: ::: spoiler Hardware As of now there is no good hardware and no plans by any company to make good hardware in the future. ::: ::: spoiler UI Mobile Linux interfaces are at least a decade behind Android, clunky and bearly usable. Btw yes I have tried them recently, they suck. For the most part mobile Linux interfaces are made by developers who would never acturally daily drive them. ::: ::: spoiler Software support Not a lot of Linux software supports arm and those that do either don't work with touchscreens or have them as an afterthought. ::: ::: spoiler UX The software that does work generals isnt designed with small screens in mind and are very often scaled down desktop apps ::: ::: spoiler Basic functionality Basic functionality is absolutely not there on Linux phones, things like calling and texing either require commands or outright dont work at all. For example according to the Postmarketos Wiki in order to change volume on a Pixel 3a during a call you need to manually change it with commands. Genuenly what the fuck, if im on an important call the other person isnt going to wait several hours for me to fiddle with the terminal. If I need to send a text now im not waiting several hours until it works. ::: ::: spoiler Security Mobile Linux has all the security issues as Linux with no mitigations, except phones contain a lot more personal information and are more likley to be a target for data extraction. :::
Android is Linux. It uses a Linux kernel paired with a BSD based user land. Also there is an AOSP version of Android which is Android without all the Google bits. LineageOS and some other security oriented firmwares derive from it. That isn't to say Google are necessarily happy about this entirely but at the same time, they open sourced most of Android and probably see it as a useful antitrust defence and the impact of flashed devices barely more than background noise.
The issue of bootloaders is an orthogonal matter since Linux or not does not mean bootloader or not - many black box devices use Linux but you won't be flashing them any time soon - TVs, set top boxes etc. I would argue that regardless of OS, there should be a right to repair law (e.g. in Europe) that allows people to maintain devices beyond their warranty. And if Samsung et al don't want to do it, then they should have an obligation to unlock devices upon request.