I could tell from mthe outset that this was going to be sexist, probably the fact it took the stance of "men do x" over "men also do x", but I didn't anticipate the final line being outright misogyny.
There is less pre-modern art by women because women were either censored or indoctrinated into roles where they couldn't create, which is the primary sin of the patriarchy.
There is a myth of men knowing love because the myth of the powerful, rational man doesn't accommodate for this, and what perpetuates that myth? That's right, the patriarchy again.
It's heartbreaking to see someone see through the patriarchal myth of masculinity and arrive at the conclusion that men are objectively better at creation and love than women
Bro you are functionally illiterate. That wasn't a coherent criticism of a specific tendency within online feminism that dickhead made, it was a broad and concavebrained generalisation.
No, you're just knee-jerking. I only said that assuming someone criticizing feminism "can't get a date" is a very stupid take and that it's broadly applied to every critique on every level.
And as a punchline, it's way past its expiration date.
I'd say it's representative of humanity thanks to its neutrality.
You're not banned left and right for having a "wrong" opinion, as Internet's greatest ruled out. You're out of a bubble, as much as it is possible on Lemmy as a whole.
Mind you: I support women's rights, I simply refuse the hate train and circlejerk that comes with a particular flavor of chronically online feminists.
Indeed, most feminists are not that. It's just that this particular flavor of it grew to be increasingly toxic, and any sort of approach to it (granted, OP went too far to go for generalizations themselves) is treated with forks.
That's a small group of people. Not feminism as a whole. Feminism in general aims at overcoming the patriarchy and therefore creating true equality between the genders. Overcoming the patriarchy also means, that men are liberated from its chains. This means, that men are allowed to cry and show feelings without being judged.
Feminism is not something, that aims at dragging men down, but eleveting society as a whole.
I didn’t think that this needed to be specified, but since anon is talking about men’s love for women, we’re looking for love songs written by women about men here. Sorry, but Sappho doesn’t count.
I submit, for your consideration, 'I will always love you' by Dolly Parton, as one example; the many works of Emily Dickinson; and probably a non-zero number of works attributed to men (Such as the Brönte Sisters) since women have not been socially allowed to benefit from the arts until reletively recently.
Name one fucking song that anyone would recognize. Something like Bon Jovi’s Always or Meat Loaf’s I Would Do Anything For Love, Aerosmith’s I Don’t Want to Miss A Thing, or Elvis Presley’s I Can’t Help Falling In Love With You. Just one gut-wrenching, tear duct triggering love song written by a woman.
I find it so interesting, that you seem to be under the impression that men are framed as evil by supposed feminists, yet denounce the work of a women if they worked with a man, as if the man being in the picture delegitemises the women's sincerity and work. Isn't cooperation regardless of gender what brings equality? Isn't it unrealistic to expect anyone from never interacting with someone of the male gender in their career? I don't think we should denounce the work of women for doing that, especially when looking at music from the past century, when women didn't have the right to choose a career without a man's permission
This isn’t as puzzling as you make it out to be. The whole point of feminism is claiming that women are just as capable and competent as men. So why do most of them seem to need help from men to write successful songs?
Now I’m certainly not saying that women lack talent as a whole (Whitney Houston’s I Will Always Love You was written by Dolly Parton originally, so clearly is possible for women to produce a megahit love song), it’s just that extreme talent seems to be more common in men. What seems to be lacking is women’s ability to recognize and appreciate that in men, and that’s the point I believe anon was trying to make.
Well Emmylou wrote the lyrics to it. And OMG it is a tearjerker so full of emotion.
I personally wouldn't argue the main point (men are way more into the trappings of "romance" than women are) because that's been my experience too. But there have been historical barriers to entry for women in the arts.
Kacey Muskgraves writes some sweet love songs (also more country like the other 2) .
Maybe cultural too, Spanish chanteuses sing a lot about love, more than I hear in other American pop music.
Literally anything by Violeta Parra. Lhasa de Sela is another favorite. You gotta break out of only English-language songs. (But also people are just giving you some basic-ass examples.)
OP doesn’t want to learn, just wants to confirm his preconceived notions. I’m actually pretty sure he’s the anon who composed the green text, and if not he wishes he had. Note his examples are not only exclusively English language but most are from the 80s or later.
Who are these people? Guy asked you for legendary and you went niche. There are plenty of talented women that have written and performed legendary songs that you could have chosen.
But I am sorry for defending him. He seems like an incel himself and kind of a dick.
You're incorrect. If it's actually felt, shame is the most powerful motivator for change. The personal satisfaction comes not from what the effort might accomplish, but from defending the ground you walk on when invaders try to tarnish its value. I will not let them enter every space I occupy and bloviate unchallenged.
IDC how old or important it is, I’m not inspired by this drivel. “I would rather see the shape of a lovely woman than a bunch of soldiers and war chariots”? Pfft, you and everyone else. Get in line.
You might be right but you also come across as a pedantic snobby culture bro asshole. Shove up your Greek knowledge up your giant ass.. if you want to share knowledge do it kindly.. arrogance is not a good method to share knowledge you muppet.
Not true at all. I’ve even suggested a song of the caliber I’m looking for (I Will Always Love You, originally by Dolly Parton but made famous by Whitney Houston).
I’m merely defending anon’s assertion that the vast majority of great love songs are written by men.
Yep. And no one cared. Why any of the many women who asked me out, I've no clue. I can tame hummingbirds, crows, and coyotes accidentally. No one cares.
Okay but sometimes Anon is actually right. Which is kinda crazy, but a broken clock can be correct twice a day. Not all Anon says is true, but you get my point.
I'd say this Anon is partly correct. Men do feel emotions. And women definitely have very high levels of consumption of the romantic genre of recreational media. Maybe the only thing Anon got wrong is "men created/invented love," which is obviously not true.
I think Anon might mean that men create a lot of romantic media, which is true. I don't know if it is more than the amount of romatic media created by women. Probably about equal, I would imagine. But I suppose it could be imbalances, I am not an expert on romance media, after all.
Also, given how people act these days, I honestly don't blame Anon for actually believing women would rather try to talk to a bear than the average man. Not that that is right, or even real. But I get why someone would feel that way.
Part of me feels like I am seen as a dangerous person in public (Being 6'3 and Autistic and all that), despite the fact there is evidence against that, so I do understand Anon to that extent.
Although I do see (at least parts of) feminism as having solutions to this dilemma, not the problem like Anon thinks.
The impression someone gives in public is based on a lot more than height, and although autism does factor in its not usually a physical danger. Body language and facial expressions are more important, you can tell if someone's stressed, or in a rush, or calm. There was a guy who was crazy tall at my last job, like nearly 7 feet tall, but he was always very polite and made funny jokes, and not once did I feel afraid of him.
Fake: Anon almost manages to question whether there's a problem with predatory culture, but fails at it.
Gay: literally the post, anon worships men
Real answer, up until the last parts Anon was doing so well. The issue is that a lot of women fear men because unlike bears, a lot of them have bad apples who can manipulate well, and they are also likely to harass for longer.. a bear will just maul you or chill, much simpler, more predictable.
Imo, women would prefer the bear because we've reached a level in our wildlife education where women realize that bears are generally passive towards humans, and are an interesting thing to encounter in the woods. While a man is pretty ho-hum.
The point is, if you're in the woods with a bear, you're probably never going to see it. The bear will actively leave you be. The human... You don't know. They could be actively seeking you out for the sole purpose of hurting you for fun.
138 replies
So very close to identifying the patriarchy and that men are victims of it too, and then wild miss at the end. sigh so, so close.
I could tell from mthe outset that this was going to be sexist, probably the fact it took the stance of "men do x" over "men also do x", but I didn't anticipate the final line being outright misogyny.
There is less pre-modern art by women because women were either censored or indoctrinated into roles where they couldn't create, which is the primary sin of the patriarchy.
There is a myth of men knowing love because the myth of the powerful, rational man doesn't accommodate for this, and what perpetuates that myth? That's right, the patriarchy again.
It's heartbreaking to see someone see through the patriarchal myth of masculinity and arrive at the conclusion that men are objectively better at creation and love than women
Anon is still an incel :O
Replace “women bad” with “men bad” and you’ve just described feminism.
someone criticizes any aspect of modern online feminism
Everyone: incel detected
Any other option is automatically dismissed.
Bro you are functionally illiterate. That wasn't a coherent criticism of a specific tendency within online feminism that dickhead made, it was a broad and concavebrained generalisation.
No, you're just knee-jerking. I only said that assuming someone criticizing feminism "can't get a date" is a very stupid take and that it's broadly applied to every critique on every level.
And as a punchline, it's way past its expiration date.
And I'm telling you that bro wasn't criticising shit so your point is completely irrelevant to this thread 🤷♀️
The fuck would you know about dates, anyway? Seeing as how you're clearly upset you don't get any 😎👉👉
I'd say it's representative of humanity thanks to its neutrality.
You're not banned left and right for having a "wrong" opinion, as Internet's greatest ruled out. You're out of a bubble, as much as it is possible on Lemmy as a whole.
Mind you: I support women's rights, I simply refuse the hate train and circlejerk that comes with a particular flavor of chronically online feminists.
Fair on that one!
Indeed, most feminists are not that. It's just that this particular flavor of it grew to be increasingly toxic, and any sort of approach to it (granted, OP went too far to go for generalizations themselves) is treated with forks.
That's a small group of people. Not feminism as a whole. Feminism in general aims at overcoming the patriarchy and therefore creating true equality between the genders. Overcoming the patriarchy also means, that men are liberated from its chains. This means, that men are allowed to cry and show feelings without being judged.
Feminism is not something, that aims at dragging men down, but eleveting society as a whole.
Don't even say it is a small group. You don't have to be truthful to these kinds of people.
Make exaggerated statements just like them if you want to talk to them. Stay on the same level. They don't understand anything more.
So no there are no feminists who say that.
As I said…
Not all men are part of the patriarchy, because some of them are victims of it
Therefore all men should become feminists
But men are still the cause of all the evil in the world
That isn't feminism.
And I should know, I am a feminist and I don't hate myself.
That false stereotype is equally as dumb as saying men don't have emotions.
Source: trust me, bro.
https://lemmy.today/comment/18331316
Take your Incel garbage and get the fuck out
Well. Not all men wrote a legendary love song.
#YES ALL MEN
How many women have written a legendary love song?
ahem Call Me Maybe?
Whitney Houston was right there, man
Well she is every woman...
That was Ashford and Simpson, who wrote it for Chaka Khan. One of whom is a man.
wasnt she produced though? lot of these pop artists have the same 3-4 guys write all their shit
Co-written with a man, sadly.
Always preferred Guitar String from CRJ.
Someone quoted Sappho earlier, love poetry written by a woman that has lasted 2500 years, and you shat on that.
There’s plenty of work written by women using male pseudonyms because women were forbidden to write.
There’s a lot of other writing by women that was simply suppressed for the same reason.
I didn’t think that this needed to be specified, but since anon is talking about men’s love for women, we’re looking for love songs written by women about men here. Sorry, but Sappho doesn’t count.
I submit, for your consideration, 'I will always love you' by Dolly Parton, as one example; the many works of Emily Dickinson; and probably a non-zero number of works attributed to men (Such as the Brönte Sisters) since women have not been socially allowed to benefit from the arts until reletively recently.
Edit: see below comment, updated with Dolly.
At Last was written by two men and originally performed by a man.
You got me. Fortunately, I don't need to look very hard to find a replacement.
Dido, Thank you.
Good song, but made famous by a man. Also co-written by a man.
Also, Beyoncé Taylor Swift Joan Baez Stevie Nicks Joni Mitchell Carole King Dolly Parton
I could list more but it seems clear from your comments you don’t actually want an answer to the question.
Name one fucking song that anyone would recognize. Something like Bon Jovi’s Always or Meat Loaf’s I Would Do Anything For Love, Aerosmith’s I Don’t Want to Miss A Thing, or Elvis Presley’s I Can’t Help Falling In Love With You. Just one gut-wrenching, tear duct triggering love song written by a woman.
Jonie Mitchell Case of You
Emmylou Harris Boulder to Birmingham
ETA holy crap how did I forget Christine McVie of Fleetwood Mac? She wrote a lot of their more poignant love songs.
Never heard of either, and the second song was co-written by a man, but I’ll say Joni Mitchell counts.
Those goalposts are like ten miles from where your started eh?
Not really. Anon claimed 99% of love songs were WRITTEN by men, didn’t he?
I find it so interesting, that you seem to be under the impression that men are framed as evil by supposed feminists, yet denounce the work of a women if they worked with a man, as if the man being in the picture delegitemises the women's sincerity and work. Isn't cooperation regardless of gender what brings equality? Isn't it unrealistic to expect anyone from never interacting with someone of the male gender in their career? I don't think we should denounce the work of women for doing that, especially when looking at music from the past century, when women didn't have the right to choose a career without a man's permission
This isn’t as puzzling as you make it out to be. The whole point of feminism is claiming that women are just as capable and competent as men. So why do most of them seem to need help from men to write successful songs?
Now I’m certainly not saying that women lack talent as a whole (Whitney Houston’s I Will Always Love You was written by Dolly Parton originally, so clearly is possible for women to produce a megahit love song), it’s just that extreme talent seems to be more common in men. What seems to be lacking is women’s ability to recognize and appreciate that in men, and that’s the point I believe anon was trying to make.
Well Emmylou wrote the lyrics to it. And OMG it is a tearjerker so full of emotion.
I personally wouldn't argue the main point (men are way more into the trappings of "romance" than women are) because that's been my experience too. But there have been historical barriers to entry for women in the arts.
Kacey Muskgraves writes some sweet love songs (also more country like the other 2) .
Maybe cultural too, Spanish chanteuses sing a lot about love, more than I hear in other American pop music.
Literally anything by Violeta Parra. Lhasa de Sela is another favorite. You gotta break out of only English-language songs. (But also people are just giving you some basic-ass examples.)
OP doesn’t want to learn, just wants to confirm his preconceived notions. I’m actually pretty sure he’s the anon who composed the green text, and if not he wishes he had. Note his examples are not only exclusively English language but most are from the 80s or later.
Who are these people? Guy asked you for legendary and you went niche. There are plenty of talented women that have written and performed legendary songs that you could have chosen.
But I am sorry for defending him. He seems like an incel himself and kind of a dick.
Those are not songs, those are just names. And I’ve never heard of them before.
Hayley Williams (Frontwoman of Paramore)
I couldn’t name one of their songs if my life depended on it.
Your ignorance does not make a convincing argument.
It does when it comes down to popularity.
Just keep swimming
Among others
Which of these is supposed to be a love song?
All of them
Imo, Bad Romance is pretty fuckin legendary.
Co-written by a man. Also, do I really need to explain what’s wrong with it?
What? That it's too much of a banger?
Ra, ra, ah-ah-ah Roma, roma-ma Gaga, ooh-la-la
Need I say more?
This is a love song a cockroach would write to bait.
Someone isn't getting enough leather-studded kisses in the sand 😘
Now playing No Doubt - It’s my life
A legendary song about loving yourself.
Tswift?
I thought she made breakup songs
Breakup songs are love songs
I assumed if you make enough breakup songs eventually you got to make one about the "love" part of a relationship
Same
He was so close…
So close and yet so far...
What is this Lemcel shit?
were on lemmy but it's 4chan posting, to be expected sadly
I thought we post and discuss greentext to make fun of them, not to agree with them.
Yeah, that is the impression I got as well
from the comments op made here it doesn't seem like that
Oh that's why I'm making fun of him in this thread too.
No more time for sorrow. Efforts to not live in a cesspool are futile in an oligarchy. Let's shame some people who deserve it.
try to never loose hope, and shaming people never brings anything other than personal satisfaction
You're incorrect. If it's actually felt, shame is the most powerful motivator for change. The personal satisfaction comes not from what the effort might accomplish, but from defending the ground you walk on when invaders try to tarnish its value. I will not let them enter every space I occupy and bloviate unchallenged.
that's fair, I was a bit shocked to see a post like this here, might block 4chan...
Shaming people is how we got were we are. It doesn't seem to be working.
The person who loves shame, sounds like they've been hurt. Consider the speaker might be biased.
Yes everyone; consider that every speaker might be biased.
I am using Lemcel from now on when I see incel shit on this platform, thank you!
Aww, what a lovely thing to write about your best friend!
/s
Of course they haven't read Sappho, they only read Shaprio of some Ben.
That doesn’t even rhyme. Garbage.
IDC how old or important it is, I’m not inspired by this drivel. “I would rather see the shape of a lovely woman than a bunch of soldiers and war chariots”? Pfft, you and everyone else. Get in line.
So her claim to fame is that she is more gay than the rest of ancient Greece?
IDK man, let’s see the poems men wrote about those soldiers and their glistening biceps before making a call here, shall we?
You might be right but you also come across as a pedantic snobby culture bro asshole. Shove up your Greek knowledge up your giant ass.. if you want to share knowledge do it kindly.. arrogance is not a good method to share knowledge you muppet.
The guy he answered is showing a worse persona than your description throughout this whole thread and you haven't really shown any kindness yourself.
Also you being insecure and uncultured doesn't automatically make others around you pedantic and snobby.
This was a funny joke until I realized it wasnt a joke
What makes you say that? I'm fully reading his replies as jokes
OP is spending the whole thread trying to argue that no woman has ever written a good love song. It's honestly a really weird hill to die on.
Not true at all. I’ve even suggested a song of the caliber I’m looking for (I Will Always Love You, originally by Dolly Parton but made famous by Whitney Houston).
I’m merely defending anon’s assertion that the vast majority of great love songs are written by men.
Have YOU written any songs or sonnets?
Have YOU made any sculptures?
Have YOU created poetry or plays?
Any generalization of this kind, positive or negative, struggles to capture individuality.
It's stupid to argue "men are deeply emotional as a group, because some poet was male"
It's equally stupid to argue "men are dangerous as a group, because some rapist was male"
Men, and women, are all different, and there is so much more variability within each gender than between them.
Sort of hard to reconcile how similar humans are to each other while exclaiming we are all snowflakes too.
Yeah, I understand that gender goes beyond this pink and blue "men are like this, women are like this" bullshit.
Yep. And no one cared. Why any of the many women who asked me out, I've no clue. I can tame hummingbirds, crows, and coyotes accidentally. No one cares.
In 1989 I translated Sweet Child of Mine into French for my girlfriend. Poetry! So stick that in your pipe and smoke it.
Does a fanfic count?
at this point...
Yes to sculptures and poetry. It didn’t get me laid with new people though.
I've never met a woman who was worth all that effort.
Sounds like a "no" to me.
Stop trying to take credit for the accomplishments of other men and try making some art yourself. I promise you won't regret it.
username checks out
I think a few people here have to remind themselves:
Okay but sometimes Anon is actually right. Which is kinda crazy, but a broken clock can be correct twice a day. Not all Anon says is true, but you get my point.
Maybe at times, but holy shit not this Anon!
I'd say this Anon is partly correct. Men do feel emotions. And women definitely have very high levels of consumption of the romantic genre of recreational media. Maybe the only thing Anon got wrong is "men created/invented love," which is obviously not true.
I think Anon might mean that men create a lot of romantic media, which is true. I don't know if it is more than the amount of romatic media created by women. Probably about equal, I would imagine. But I suppose it could be imbalances, I am not an expert on romance media, after all.
Also, given how people act these days, I honestly don't blame Anon for actually believing women would rather try to talk to a bear than the average man. Not that that is right, or even real. But I get why someone would feel that way.
Okay, okay, I see your point.
Part of me feels like I am seen as a dangerous person in public (Being 6'3 and Autistic and all that), despite the fact there is evidence against that, so I do understand Anon to that extent.
Although I do see (at least parts of) feminism as having solutions to this dilemma, not the problem like Anon thinks.
The impression someone gives in public is based on a lot more than height, and although autism does factor in its not usually a physical danger. Body language and facial expressions are more important, you can tell if someone's stressed, or in a rush, or calm. There was a guy who was crazy tall at my last job, like nearly 7 feet tall, but he was always very polite and made funny jokes, and not once did I feel afraid of him.
Fake: Anon almost manages to question whether there's a problem with predatory culture, but fails at it.
Gay: literally the post, anon worships men
Real answer, up until the last parts Anon was doing so well. The issue is that a lot of women fear men because unlike bears, a lot of them have bad apples who can manipulate well, and they are also likely to harass for longer.. a bear will just maul you or chill, much simpler, more predictable.
No matter what bear, you know what you are getting, a fucking bear.
No matter what man, you have no idea what you are getting, they could be a saint or a monster or both.
Imo, women would prefer the bear because we've reached a level in our wildlife education where women realize that bears are generally passive towards humans, and are an interesting thing to encounter in the woods. While a man is pretty ho-hum.
negative, it was a stupid meme that does not translate into real life AT ALL and now autistics are trying to make it make sense
lol. i was making a joke. But also that
oh… have an updoot my friend
The point is, if you're in the woods with a bear, you're probably never going to see it. The bear will actively leave you be. The human... You don't know. They could be actively seeking you out for the sole purpose of hurting you for fun.
Yes, that's what feminists mean when we speak of toxic masculinity. Societal enforcement of rigid gender roles are bad for women and men.
This is basic, foundational stuff in modern feminism.
So why is it the self-proclaimed feminists in here who are pushing back the hardest on anon’s claims?
You’d think they would embrace this as evidence that #NotAllMen are violent and sexist, yet they’re fighting me tooth and nail on it.
Explain how feminism helps men achieve positive behavioral change if it systematically discards any evidence of their capacity for such.
There's plenty of feminist literature about raising compassionate, empathetic, loving sons.
And here you are accusing me of strawmanning…
Damn, all I'm seeing here is hella moid coping and seething 💅
> try dunking on someone online
> can't even use escape characters
> mfw
how will I cope, I am bad at formatting lemmy posts! Ive truly failed as a human being
👍
This is the worst 4chan space I've ever seen. It's like Reddit's r/Politics. There's a comment decrying the patriarchy with 55 upvotes.
Lol. Lmao, even
Usually this is the BEST 4chan space, but unfortunately, I have to agree with you on this post
He's right. He's out of line, but he's right.
Are we promoting incel ideology on lemmy? I’d rather have tankies.
Me, running over lemmy incels, in my tank