In 6 hours it will be illegal to say "I support Palestine Action" in the UK, with a sentence of up to 14 years in prison.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/jul/04/ban-on-palestine-action-to-take-effect-after-legal-challenge-failsOpen linkView original on lemmy.blahaj.zone1252
Comments281
Codifying your genocide support into law. Nice.
If there is ever justice for Palestine the trials will be short. These bastards are so proud of their support for genocide.
if they promise to only paint things orange on military bases i think that's ok
we'll take their word for it
Nonviolent direct action has earned them the label "terrorists."
Grrrrr, he very likely didn't say that.
The closest to it I could find is “The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws” by Tacitus (The Annals of Imperial Rome).
Cicero lived at the end of the republic, his problem wasn't too many laws...
Bang on mate. It's here in the "Misattributed" section https://en.m.wikiquote.org/wiki/Cicero
Cicero was world class complainer after all.
When the sentence is the same for non-violent protest and for actual terrorism, don't be surprised if things get more extreme quickly.
Just more newspeak, like Trump calling everything he posts online "truths" while being nothing but lie after lie.
The harder they push their pro-Israel agenda, the more anti-Israel everyone is going to get.
You can't bully us into supporting a genocidal regime.
My fucking brain is so fried.
Both my parents were in World War II. They fought against fascism. I was brought up to feel for what happened to the Jews during that war. Now all I see is that they seem to be being worse than the actual Nazis.
Israel =/= the “Jews”.
Israel’s founders were actually very prejudiced against Jews that survived the holocaust. And much more against the ones that didn’t actually…
Louder for the people in the back!
Zionists = religious nationalists / colonialists / fascists
Anti-zionists = anti-all-of-the-above
The Jewish ethnic/religious part is completely irrelevant. There are many thousands of non-jews who support Israel's genocide, as evidenced by this batshit draconian illegitimate law. The UK/USA likely created Israel solely to destabilize the region and have an ally in the middle of the oil they needed. Within the next decade they then overthrew Irans democratically elected socialist leader because he wanted to expel British Petroleum and nationalise production (like Norway has been doing for decades).
If you just hate jews you're some flavor of fascist or religious nationalist, so no better than zionists or any of the criminals who created this mess.
Do not conflate Jewish people with Israel
That is a very important distinction
I guess I am ignorant in that respect. When I was taught back in the 60’s it was taught as the Jewish people and all dissidents, disabled and whoever else the nazi’s wanted out of the way.
I said what I did because in today's world the labeling matters between Jewish people and zionists. Not because of anything that happened in WWII, but rather because you can condemn what the people in Israel are doing in Palestine and it has nothing to do with their faith.
However, there are people who will call you anti semetic for doing that and it's just not true.
And neglected to mention that it wasn't just jews but anyone the nazis didn't like, such as gays, communists, other races, etc.
I did not intentionally not mention them. I was just talking about them because they were the specific topic of discussion. Of course there were others.
I have a feeling they can. If all discourse over social media is anti Palestine and no one can refute it, I give it 10 years max before it would just be a frothing hate for Palestinians with a significant amount of the population.
They are already trying to do this and failing miserably at it. Censorship itself is an admission of guilt and is something that people are really starting to understand. That's basically the point of my original comment: the harder they try to stop dissent, the more guilty they look.
Information can also be spread offline.
This is why the Fediverse and VPNs/Tor etc. are so important.
Just to be clear because everybody seems to be missing this point.
Palestinian Action, is an organisation. Membership of that group is banned, it is not illegal to support Palestinians or to call out Israel's genocide. The government doesn't like it when you do, but it's not actually illegal for you to do it.
This organisation broke into a UK air force base in order to protest. They are not being charged because they protested, they're being charged for breaking in and damaging a lot of military equipment. I think it's a bit far to call them terrorists, but you can sort of see the government's point, if you squint.
The UK government does however absolutely deserve to get it in the neck for their support of Israel. Labour have had a pretty awkward relationship with Israel in particular and anti-Semitism in general for a long time, and they're now keen to be seen as supporters, but there are limits.
Thank you for this clarification. This is an extremely important context. "Palestine Action" is the particular name of a very specific organization, so the title of the article is obviously a bit misleading.
Still very worrying and more than a bit concerning, though. Here's to hoping for a future strengthening of UK speech laws. Though, frankly, I'm not so sure about US speech laws anymore. Cheers.
Yes and I support that particular organization and the actions they perform. From what it sounds like reading the article, this very comment makes me a criminal in the UK
God bless the first amendment 🦅🇺🇲
Did you mean "a bit unfair"? Because I don't see how anybody would be terrorized by this. It's clearly illegal but using terrorism here is very problematic, especially since what the military does to people in the middle easy is actual terrorism but not called that.
Afaik the "anti-Semitism in Labour" was basically a made up smear by the Labour Party themselves to prevent Jeremy Corbyn getting elected. Not sure about other instances though.
https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/going+a+bit+far
Really? Oh so is the USA and Israel a terrorist country too and any organization they support terrorists as well?
No, it's "Reductio ad Absurdum" showing how your argument is fallacious.
What anti-Semitism where they accused of?
I don't think it was ever anything concrete. Some members of the Labour Party made some comments that could potentially have been interpreted as being anti-semitic. Everyone went absolutely crazy, without anything in the way of evidence, and it caused a major political scandal. Labour themselves made the whole situation infinitely worse by not properly investigating the allegations, which made it look like they were trying to protect people. In reality I think it was just incompetence.
It was the very definition of a storm in a teacup, essentially nothing had happened but the opposition parties reacted as if it was some major scandal for the sole purpose of political point scoring.
Labour subsequently lost the 2019 elections and the suggestion was it was because of this scandal.
So when Starmer became leader one of the things he said he was going to do was root out anti-Semitism within the party (no matter how much he had to dig for it), this was around 2020 but he had been campaigning about it since around 2018. Anyway when he became leader there was a big bust up where he got rid of anyone he thought was being anti-semitic (again there was a lot of doubt about whether or not they were being). Then in 2024 they won the election. So ever since then they've been very careful to not appear anti-semitic to the point at which they are refusing to even acknowledge Israel's war crimes.
This is all especially annoying since they would have won the 2024 general election no matter what because the Conservatives were polling so badly. So this big arguement about anti-Semitism was completely unnecessary. Had it not happened Labour would still be in power, but would be less inclined to shy away from criticism of Israel.
::: spoiler TLDR Accusing Labour of been anti-semitic has been the default position of the opposition for a while because it works. Who cares about the truth anymore? :::
The bit you've skimmed over is that it happened under Corbyn, who was hugely popular with Labour members for being actually Left Wing, and hugely unpopular amongst the entire rest of the political and media establishments (including Labour MPs) for exactly the same reason. Pretty much everyone on all sides who'd never given a toss about antisemitism before were suddenly pearl-clutching over the tiniest statement made by a backbencher's assistant's brother's gibbon because it was a handy way to bring Corbyn down without having to give any airtime to debating his (very popular) policies.
And that's how you completely conflate the meaning of a word.
Thanks for clarifying, I've heard about the accusations before but never really understood what they were accused of.. But I think the last couple of years of "anti-Semitism" left and right accusations aimed at individuals who are simply against the murder of innocent people help explain it. My guess is that some members of labour saw the Israeli regime for the terrorists they are ages ago and didn't shut up about it.. The Zionist lobby in the UK is obscene.. Shame on these crooks!
Yeah, they lost an election over an antisemitism row a few years ago and have chosen the worst possible moment in history to start overcompensating for it.
It should be noted that it was the "please stop murdering children" kind of "antisemitism", not real antisemitism.
The worst kind of antisemitismn, according to Isreal.
Out of curiosity, I looked up the US Federal definition of terrorism ::: spoiler definition
Due to the element danger to human life, their definition wouldn't fit.
However, the UK legal definition ::: spoiler definition
Footnotes
Words in s. 1(1)(2) inserted (13.4.2006) by Terrorism Act 2006 (c. 11), s. 34; S.I. 2006/1013, art. 2 ↩
Words in s. 1(1)(3) inserted (16.2.2009) by Counter-Terrorism Act 2008 (c. 28), ss. 75(1)(2)(a), 100(5) (with s. 101(2)); S.I. 2009/58, art. 2(a) ↩
Wow, so the very act of peaceful protest is now defined as 'terrorism' because the below can be very loosely interpreted in whatever way necessary:
I don't know: it's possible. If legal definitions & case law (which I don't know enough about) don't settle their meaning, then they could mean anything. A lawyer could clarify.
For sure. e.g. Block the road, you block emergency vehicles / assault on emergency workers = terrorism.
https://www.bailii.org/
Plain old traffic jams and collisions block emergency vehicles all the time. Doesn't seem to be a problem during these very normal things that happen all the time ... but protestors block a road and suddenly it's a huge problem.
I see: that technically could.
The UK definition isn’t that wild - the ‘ra used to plant bombs and then phone it in. There’s still terror seeing a building explode - knowing the only reason there aren’t casualties is because the bombers, this time, called it in with 15 minutes on the fuse.
Acts dangerous to human life don't require actual casualties: if people need to leave to avoid death or injury, then that's an act dangerous to human life.
They even forbid the playing of "Don't cry for me Argentina" during the wer to protect their Malvinas colony.
That would have been the Conservatives though. The Conservatives under Thatcher were in power during the Falklands war.
Same as in the US, that doesn't matter.
They will always support their regime wars.
R/D in the US or Labour/Cons in the UK.
Warcriminal Blair is a good example.
The actions one political party are irrelevant to the actions of another political party. Especially over the course of such time.
If you want to make the arguement that the labour party are warmongering then there's much that you can do to make that arguement but to equate the current situation to the Falklands war is disingenuous at absolute best.
you are wrong
Yeah which is damaging.
I am simply providing information here I am not providing my personal opinion. Please stop trying togenerate arguement where non-exists the waters are already muddied enough.
Looks like the UK is going down the American road here. It's time for all those UK citizens that said, "Rise up now!" to Americans months ago....time to rise up! Give us a great example!
Oh, you can't because you have to work for a living? How about that....
There is also legislation that can be used to arrest most protestors. And you can face a multi-year prison sentence if you say something wrong on social media.
The UK is actually further along the dystopian path than the USA in some ways, but as is tradition they are trying to pretend it's not happening.
During the Korean war a British unit was being overrun by the Chinese. The American general asked the British Colonel how things where and the Colonel said its a bit hairy. While the American general took this to mean they are ok. They got overrun and everyone in the unit was killed or captured.
I love these kinds of stories, but I think that specific example is just a misunderstanding of idioms, rather than an example of pretending something isn't happening, though.
It is representative of how British people often avoid the truth or confrontations and instead use sarcasm, idioms, etc. that understate the situation.
The English are also a worldwide example of people who go "Oh no, everything is fine." when everything is wrong.
There are even famous British comedies like Fawlty Towers, that have a lot of jokes about how they don't like to be honest or confrontational.
UK has always had that 1984/Brazil (the movie, not the not-movie) vibe; it wasn’t all just pulled out of Orwell’s magic butt.
Going down?
They are doing this because Palestine Action has been incredibly effective. They have already forced the closure of two factories in England that produce arms for Israeli defense company Elbit and forced Barclays Bank to divest through sustained sabotage campaigns. No person has been hurt by their actions, yet these actions have cost the genocide supporters millions of pounds and caused months-long disruptions to the production of weapons used in ethnic clean songs around the globe (Elbit weapons are fueling not just the Palestine ethnic cleaning, but Kashmir and DRC, too).
Wow protestors these days will stoop to the level of wisely putting pressure on major companies supporting genocide?!?
First property damage and now this??
clutches plastic pearls
Mossad has insane control over the world
In a “broken clock is right twice a day” type of thing, all the conspiracy theorists talking about how Jews secretly run the world have a bit of a point, although it’s specifically the Israeli govt/military and not Judaism as a whole. We, the most powerful military in human history, just hand them shit that goes bang for ethical (religious and lobbying) reasons and to actually hopefully bring about Armageddon. It’s disgusting
I think Jewish people were effectively invited into that position across much of Europe, back when the Catholic church forbade usury but the people still wanted banks.
Unfortunately for many Jewish people , some of their number became a major driving force for capitalism.
I support Palestine action
Righto chap, hop in the prison lorry then!
I'm calling the rozzers
The Fingers noticed, the Nose is after you.
I hate evil.
Not only is the ruling wrong - it is the very thing it claims to be opposing. It is itself an act of terrorism, carried out with the intention of inspiring fear in the British public to further a political agenda.
In every way, the British government is replicating the actions it accuses PA of - except that the scale of harm to British society and the terror inspired is magnitudes greater, and performed in service of the opposite political goal.
This is a terror attack by the government against the British people.
The British people's opinion and will are the thing from which the goverment gains it's only source of legitimacy - and they do not line up with the government on this issue.
But evidently the government believes in a different model of legitimacy: they believe that legitimacy is derived from the mere fact that they hold power. In the mind of the government and it's supporters, the difference between a terrorist organisation and a legitimate government is just power and only power. To them, right and wrong has absolutely nothing to do with it. They think that they are winning, and that they are going to get away with it. Nothing else matters.
*Macht macht Recht"
I support Palestinian action in the UK
I'm more shocked it hasn't already happened to Extinction Rebellion, Insulate Britain or Just Stop Oil.
But I guess blockading motorways and rocking up to art museums dressed like extras from a Wham music video and defacing paintings makes you less of a threat than wanting Netanyahu to stop his genocide of the Palestinian people.
Still, calling blocking motorways and defacing painting terrorism is a stretch.
And that's pretty much what Palestine Action did.
Not quite.
They did proper sabotage as well.
I think it's also worth noting that this is the stupidest possible way of protesting against Israel and pro-Palestine. There are SO MANY weapons suppliers all over the place... But more importantly, Israel can do fine with domestic production when fighting Hamas/Hezbollah. They need external supplies for fighting Iran, sure, but this was all before that happened.
Yes alongside damaging historical artifacts
They get too much money from it. The things you listed are visible and awful, But, money....
We're also losing our freedom of speech in America, so we Americans can sympathize a bit.
You've actually lost your citizenship for that Thoughtcrime. Have fun in El Salvador. -people who will only stop when met with violent force
They just passed an “assault weapons ban” in my stare that has super low gun violence rates, and bans anything with a magazine, picatinny rails, forward grips, just ridiculous shit. Only 10 Republicans (the party pretending to be all for gun rights) voted against it which shows this is a concerted effort to disarm leftists and prevent us from arming ourselves while fascism breaks out in the usa and the two largest growing groups of gun owners are currently LGBTQ people and women of color. So yeah let’s concentrate weapons in the hands of police who are involved in every 1 Of twenty firearm homicides. As well as rich people and their paid mercenaries (thugs) it’s a great time to be an American
Again? These three videos are a few years old and still very accurate.
Good watch, thanks for that. Unfortunately neoliberalism has spread a metastasizing wave of anti intellectual virtue signaling conservatism cosplaying as progressivism. I need tk get myself some cash asap to grab a couple weapons that will be banned in a year
Labour are class traitors.
So said Orwell many, many decades ago and people still vote for theae shitstains. There was some slight chance under Corbin but people want more Tory, so here we are.
Well Corbyn has just started a new party...
Has he actually because I keep hearing conflicting reports. A Labour MP left and claimed that she was joining a new party with Corbin, however I don't think Corbin himself has actually confirmed this, and I thought he was done with politics anyway.
So this new party seemed to be carrying on the fine old tradition of the left being utterly useless at communications.
Well yes you are technically correct.
Zarah has quit Labour and Corbyn has said they will create something new. At this moment they are intending to create something new.
I wonder if any others in Labour or if any of the independants will join them. There should be a few and maybe they'll have more than five members.
That's good reason to remind people, that law is written by particular people, mostly to protect those people interests.
Is it Illegal to say
"It is illegal to say...
I support Palestine Action."
?
Flashback to...
(couldn't get piped to load search results :( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmiKenqLVAU )
In the US don’t judges get to put on their reasonable person hat and see through little loopholes sometimes (obviously not always)?
Wonder about the UK, point is I’d only play around if I weren’t afraid of prison (I’m not strong enough to become a martyr for much of anything, pretty weak)
Back in the time after 9:11 they (the red coloured torys) passed some draconian anti-terror laws in the UK (well at least in England and Wales, I'm not so sure about Scotland and Norniron), basically no habeas corpus if the word "terrorism" is involved.
They were exactly worried that judges might put on a 'reasonable person' wig, or do something even more damaging to the free world like ask to see some evidence.
Dangerous and many voted against it. We already had politicians dead across both sides of the pond. Shouldn't be encouraging this BS.
As long as you don't touch Corbyn
Bah, he can get in the sea as well, he supported brexit
Save some room for the American politicians though please too.
Yeah but that's been the opinion of the British public since the 1960s. Calling every British politician a useless skidmark (preferably to their face) is as close as we get to patriotism.
Feeding, housing and guarding someone for 14 years has got to be ridiculously expensive. All for uttering a few words.
Do prisoners in the UK do slave labor like in the US?
Not yet
So the UK is now officially pro-genocide?
Good to know.
:gestures broadly at history:
Bro. Great Britain is responsible for this whole mess: it’s called the Balfour Declaration.
Well, yes and no. It's true we started it. But then we had bigger fish to fry and handed it off to the UN. Who could have dissolved the whole thing and returned it to the previous state, but chose not to.
If I set fire to your house, and then I turn to you saying "ooh boy this is a hairy problem, you better take care of it", I am entirely responsible for your house being on fire.
For that to be a useful simile you'd need to use some kind of reversible fire.
What about the nakba massacres strikes you as reversible? Do you know what the word reversible means?
Ever heard of the East India Company?
It the Irish potato famine?
Haven't they always been pro genocide?
Ever heard of Churchill and what he (and other British people) did in India? He starved millions to death. Look up Bengali famine.
It's important to remember that the headline refers to the group Palestine action, which has carried out vandalisation of historical pieces, occupations of property, destruction etc (see here). So it's a group that fits the UK definition of an extremist group.
Some political groups (or even branches of them) can be political cults trapping members with coercive control It's not always idealistic well meaning people. The court that decreed them an unlawful group will have seen a lot of info we didn't.
I think we need to look deeper than the headline
The most widely celebrated circumstance in the world is being rid of the British government. It’s spawned many holidays.
It is of course somewhat disingenuous to equate the empire to the modern British government. In much the same way that it makes no sense to say that Japan in its current form has any relation to feudal Japan.
Only difference is that they now only have a fraction of their power.
OTOH they 100% have the same horrible attitude.
Like the declining US now doesn't realise they aren't top dog anymore, the Brits who have been surpassed by them for a century still delude themselves and think they can and should dictate what the world should do.
Glad we had Brexit.
Always causing trouble and wanting it their way.
Embarrassing.
checks post, 9h
sets VPN to UK
I support Palestine Action
Just to be clear as much as this is an abhorrent thing for them to do, it won't result in anything. The people who they have arrested have already been charged, so this changing the law doesn't have any effect on that legal decision and pretty much no one else is associated with them.
They're a very small very vocal activist group. The general feeling is that they actually did go too far on this. They are not banning protests in general just this particular organisation, which in fairness, did break into a military base so I don't know what they expect it to happen.
So you're probably safe from oppression, even if you were actually in the UK.
Vandalizing military equipment to protest against a genocide doesn't strike me as "too far".
What does the UK military have to do with a private company sending weapons to Israel? All the protesters are asking for is the weapon companies not to be allowed to send weapons from Israel from UK soil, I'm sure they would just send them from the US but at least it's a stance.
The UK military isn't doing anything in Israel so they are weird target
Prejudicial language much?
If you want to make some kind of point then absolutely make it, I'm simply providing informational context with zero political opinion. The truth is that what they did is against the law. You can disagree with the law as much as you want but the fact still remains that what they did was a crime under the law.
I do not appreciate the interpretation of some kind of Draconian and imperialist government here. That's absolutely not what is happening
Did they know? If you say so...
Breaking into a military base is basically the opposite of terrorism
I suppose an arguement could be made that terrorists might want to break into a military base and might use this group as a vehicle through which to do that. It would be an absurd arguement but it wouldn't be totally irrational.
I don't support this action by the UK government, but quite a few people in this thread seem to be of the opinion that the UK government is banning all protest which isn't happening here. So I just wanted to set the record straight.
Didn't we functionally ban all protests under Borris? something about them not being allowed if they inconvenience anyone in any way real or imagined so really you can only have them if you do it alone in a dark closet very quietly, or get permission in which case its not a protest.
Best to add a "yet" to the end of that sentence. This is just one more rung to the ladder.
Let me refine: "Fuck the Israeli government!" I have no beef with the country / people insofar as they hate their genocidal government.
Brainwash is real. However, I am disappointed that you completely ignored the "insofar" limitation to my statement.
"So far" has a different meaning and is incorrect here. "insofar" is the correct word, meaning "to the extent"
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/insofar
Recent polling shows only 19% of the Israeli population don't support the genocide
More than what i'd've thought.
So what? You're gonna lump them in with the rest just because they were born there?
No, nothing like that, just wanting to clarify that it's not a case of a rogue government going against popular opinion. Genocide is very popular in Israeli society, to the point that, if you ever talk to an anti-genocide Israeli, they tend to feel like political outcasts.
IMO, Israel is unusual because a disproportionate amount of the population are migrants who moved there specifically because they support the genocidal project, and people who were born there but oppose the project are far more likely than average to be able to move to another country and get out.
I think you are mixing the early stages of the state of Israel - certainly involving displacement and violence against Palestinian natives - with the recurring outbursts of Apartheid and crimes against humanity. There were calm phases in Israel, and many people moved there without genocidal actions ever being part of the public perception.
There was never a time where Israel was not an colonialist and implicitly genocidal project. There also haven't been "outbursts" of apartheid and crimes against humanity; those have been a constant at all times.
and this is now where you are bordering hard if not delving into antisemitism :/ I have no desire to speak with you any further.
Really important distinction
Oh 99% (quite a bit less of course) of Israelis support genocide, then fuck Israel! No, you don’t throw babies out with bath water, even when they’re the worst and you’re mad as you should be.
Fuck any genocidal Israeli assholes, but Israel is too big to go blanket on them like this.
Why aren’t we antisemitic, b/c we know what words mean and we’re not antisemitic. Let’s talk like both those are true too.
Netanyahu should lick my pickled taint until he stops murdering kids
Judging by the mixed reactions my comment got, sadly half the people either don't get it or they are anti-semites :(
Do they though? They're brainwashed since kids at school and serving in the military is mandatory (both genders, very egalitarian), so i wonder what percentage is actually against and what are they doing.
As you say - brainwashing is effective. And I wouldn't be so quick to condemn everyone for having been brainwashed, especially because attacks against a country as a whole is only going to strengthen populists and nationalists therein.
A new activist group has popped up and called itself Yvette Cooper. Amazing stuff
Probably not, since that's the name of the awful UK Home Secretary who nominated Palestine Action to be designation as a terrorist group in the first place..
Time to make a new group and to spite them call it "palestine 2 action"
2 Palestine 2 Action
There are few things I like about being an American, but one of them is the first amendment. It doesn't always work, and Trump is sure to try some shit like this soon, but at least I know for now I won't go to prison for saying that I do indeed support Palestine Action
You could absolutely go to prison for it. A group of people in an unmarked van can grab you, send you to a prison in your country or even somewhere else, where you will be tortured possibly to death, and even if there will be an international fuss about it, nobody will ever do anything about it.
There is no more laws in your country, none.
I could, because our rights are not bulletproof. That said, it's not a given that I will go to jail for being against genocide
It's not given in the UK either. At least they still have the ability to challenge that.
Do they have jury trials in the UK? This seems like a perfect use of jury nullification.
As long they can send people to torture prisons without due process or evidence, we do NOT have a First Amendment.
Or a 5th or 14th amendment
The Met statement (https://news.met.police.uk/news/update-on-policing-in-london-following-proscription-of-palestine-action-499157) includes a 'report your neighbour' statement; "If you see material supporting terrorism online report it – visit www.gov.uk/ACT
You can also report suspicious activity by contacting the police in confidence on 0800 789 321."
Use this information wisely.
And i thought police in the V for Vendetta movie was extreme. Reality is a bitch.
Death Death to the IDF!
Really? That's kinda fucked up. How did such a law actually get passed? Who assented to this shit?
There are terrorists in the Govt duh, that's how.
Look at the United Kingdom giving the United States a run for their money.
after brexit, nothing was ever the same, they fell for russian propaganda just like the US did, and us is basically going through the initial stages of "USEXIT"
After 1979 really, but more realistically the rot set in a bit earlier in the 70s when the banks were given the power to start cannibalising the economy and got away with blaming the damage on trade unions and OPEC.
Pretty similar timeline for US, i think more or less after JFK when they started destroying FDR legacy.
exit from what?
Sanity
The global economy.
hah, thats SLIGHTLY more drastic than the british comparison.
Dissolution of the Union I guess
Make signs that say "I support ________ ______" and let the media fill in the blanks for you.
Capitalism is genocidal. End capitalism!
Surely there is a typo in the headline, only Russia, land of the washing machine CPUs, puts people in jail for words.
Crazy. I thought Palestine Action was oddly capitalized. They're a fucking group. They're an organization- I thought they were banning supporting ending a genocide, but they're shutting down a based and vandal-pilled activist group.
Uh, I've never heard of them but fuck it. I support Palestine Action. You can't just censor people or opinions out of existence. wtf
Death to Pissrael!!!
I was following this and was sad to hear about this happening despite excellent counterarguments from people like Zarah Sultana. These are scary times, but I was encouraged there was at least this response yesterday (just watch the first ~45 seconds): Invidious |
YoutubeSultana somewhat marred that excellence earlier today by insisting on sticking to the line that the planes at Brize Norton were “connected” with flights over Gaza, which they were not. Sticking to that story makes it easier to discount their better reasoning.
Luckily I’m not from Terf island (although things aren’t looking so good around here either), but I support Palestine action
At risk of sounding like that dipshit Vance, you guys don’t have free speech, not really. The uk seems to exist in a “yes, but no” realm. The press can’t report on trials such that it might influence outcome. 1988 law iirc. That’s smart, but it’s still a guardrail on speech. Some of the arrests and even sentences over there, for speech and sometimes even ideology related infractions, are a bit wild. I remember reading something about a woman being fined for calling her ex a leprechaun on social media.
That said, I feel a need to reiterate how crazy this defense of war and slaughter is. I’ve been a casual observer at best but I do not understand why either government cares if a people across an ocean (who are not and never will be boots on the ground for either side of this war) say they don’t like a war. So what? The war will rage on regardless of wether or not college students in Michigan walk around outside on a nice day holding signs. Or if some guy in London posts an objection on social media. That’s not even a speed bump to this war or either government if either government even sees or hears any of it. So why does either government even care? Why even spend energy on that? For them, it’s like a volume setting that maybe can’t be turned to zero, but in the end it’s just a bit of noise to them. So why bother? The war will continue. As such, their reaction makes no sense whatsoever.
I think it makes sense when you consider there are many government workers who do not support the genocide of Palestinians, and would be more vocal about it if they the political capital that, say, a large protest nets you.
It's actually possible to end this with only the ingredients we have available right now.
home sectary put it with neo-Nazis. You don't want to back neo-Nazis, do you?
So, if they shut down and a new org called "Palestine Initiative" that happens to be coincidentally led by the same folks... all good?
If you’re serious, no, not all good. By UK law any organization led by the same people will automatically be labeled a terrorist organization.
change the name of your org, make them play wack-a-mole.
There appears to be something of a rebrand to "Yvette Cooper".
Rename it to "Israel Action" (as in, action against Israel)
Then call them antisemitic when they move to ban it.
I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action
Come and get me!!!
2020ish...Two Presidents team up to create a world without Palestinians.
1940ish...Two dictators team up to create a world without Jews.
UK , USA , who’s next ????????
Can someone explain why so many countries support what’s happening in Palestine? Whats going on behind the scenes here?
Most
westerncountries have committed genocide or invasion in very recent history. Either in the context of WWII, colonialism or economic interests.Countriespeople don't magically change over night. Wouldn't it be more surprising if they didn't support their ally?There. Fixed that for you. Dont have to thank me, its good.
Big Israeli lobby. Bribes and Epstein blackmail.
I do think the situation is more complicated than Lemmy would have you believe.
Both Iran and Hamas have been geopolitical issues for a long time. And it's worth remembering that all of this was kicked off by a large scale terrorist attack perpetrated by Hamas.
It's also worth noting that Iran is a Russian puppet, and Europe obviously has some "neighbor problems" with Russia at the moment, so there's a sort of baked in desire to oppose their vassal states.
And, while I think everyone would agree that the loss of civilian life is terrible, there is a huge amount of misinformation that makes it hard to be sure what's going on. Hamas does have a long history of screwing over the civilian Palestinian population to further it's political goals, and so people are willing to give Israel a little more credence than they deserve when they claim things like "Hamas was hiding in that hospital" or "we're blocking aid because Hamas is hoarding it all to drive up tensions" or "it was Hamas who shot those civilians," because it actually wouldn't be the first time any of that had credibly happened. Something of a boy-cried-wolf scenario.
Add into that genuine desire to combat real anti-Semitism that's been a fallout of this whole situation (a problem that hits pretty close to home in Europe due to events of the past century), and you can see why some people might be a bit over-eager to support Israel in this conflict.
It's worth noting there are no good guys here. Israel is obviously in the wrong, and are committing horrible atrocities. I think that much is plain on its face. But Hamas and Iran have both had "the destruction of the state of Israel" as stated policy goals for the past 80 years. The reason Israel has the Iron Dome is because they've been getting missiles lobbed at them non-stop for decades.
And when there are no good guys, people tend to just align themselves with who they like more, or who they owe more to.
This is insane when Israel was killing Palestinians years before Hamas even existed.
The Nakba happened 40 years before they existed.
Israel has commited genocide and ethnic cleansing since the first day it was conceived and reducing this to "both sides are bad" because the Palestinian way of resisting is not perfect is not an fair assessment of the situation.
This is a great example why we should be really careful discussing history here. Yes, the Nakba did happen. But what did happen before the Nakba? The arab attack on Israel right after it was founded. What did happen before that? The arab revolt from 1936-1939. What did happen after the Nakba? The deportation of Jews from nearly all arab countries. What did happen after that? Several wars, intifadas, terror acts from both sides and so on. There can't be peace when you use history like that. Both sides can point to atrocities of the other side and continue fighting - to take your words, palestinians were killing Jews even before Israel was founded and Israel was attacked several times with a clear genocidal intention and there are people living in Israel who were ethnical cleansed out of arab states.
I feel like the saying "an eye for an eye makes the while world blind" fits here.
However, also,
— Desmond Tutu
Yeah and you´re totally sane when you ignore what happened before that, of course. Extremists from both sides have been trying to put a genocide on the other to claim the soon-to-be-independent territory for more than a hundred years
Propaganda is deeply effective because most people's world events attention span is like a dog that sees a squirrel. History starts at the chosen squirrel event, and of course, geopolitics is viewed as "Us the good guys" vs. "those who fail to obey us".
Your rant was praised as balanced, but is simply the official justification for colonial apartheid turned genocide our rulers, in submission to our own colonial masters, dictate upon us.
That's a really balanced comment and I'm sorry you're getting downvoted for it.
The idea that the actions of world powers are in any way governed by morality is largely a myth. Politicians will try to twist reality and use morality to justify killing people abroad and sometimes morality does align with their interests by coincidence.
But the motivations are always about furthering financial and strategic interests. See the overthrow of the Iranian regime in 1953 to protect oil interests, CIA coups and supporting murderous dictators in countless South American and other countries around the world, the recent Iraq war etc. If a government gets elected somewhere that would threaten our business interests (by taxing or nationalising them for example), we have historically supported bloody coups to remove them and install murderous facist regimes that enable us to keep making money at the cost of countless innocent lives.
Strategic in the sense that we prevent other powers in a region from becoming strong enough to challenge us. Keeping ourselves on top and in charge by keeping others down. Israel is a valuable ally in this regard - they maintain power in the region by keeping others down and keep them focused more on destroying Israel than attacking us.
Palestinian lives aren't important to our governments. They have no real power and there's no real profit to be made from them. Our strategic interest in supporting Israel will always trump any humanitarian interest in preventing genocide.
Let's be honest: No country would act different from Israel when facing a situation as with Gaza. No country could tolerate an attack like Oct 7th on its territory, esp with everything that happened before with all the rocket and suicide attacks. Just think about how the Americans reacted to 9/11. They started bombing Afghanistan and Iraq even if both countries really didn't have much to do with 9/11. In this case it would be a scenario like "9/11 was done by a narco cartel in a small part of Mexico where central authority lost control" or something like that.
Combine it with the fact that all western states have no sympathies for islamist extremists like Hamas, because they are not muslim and also because most western states suffered from islamist attacks. Most states also see Hamas (an Hezbollah) as an Iranian proxy militia (which they are) and have also no sympathies to Iran, its theocratic dictatorship, its nuclear program and its military alliance with Russia.
It may also be illegal to refuse to give over passwords for your devices. For trivial stuff this doesn't apply but a terrorist group it likely does.
So remember to practice good data security.
SHOULD CHANT IT WHILE LOOTING LONDON
They can take it to EU court. oops haha. This is why the elites pushed for Brexit. It wasn’t just to repatriate their money from Cayman Islands tax free. It’s so they can suppress anyone that doesn’t bend the knee.
The UK is still a party to the European Convention on Human Rights.
Any major difference to the universal declaration on human rights?
Funnily enough the rights themselves are broadly similar, but the European Convention on Human Rights established the European Court of Human Rights, so being a party to the treaty means we are still within ECtHR's jurisdiction.
Edit: for anyone who may be confused, the Court of Justice of the European Union [CJEU] - sometimes called the European Court of Justice [ECJ] is the court that enforces the law of the European Union [EU]. This includes the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union [CFR]. On the other hand, the European Convention on Human Rights [ECHR] is a treaty drafted by the Council of Europe [CoE] that provides for the European Court of Human Rights [ECtHR].
So when the United Kingdom [UK] was a member of the EU, then the UK was still subject to the CFR, enforced by the ECJ (except not really because the UK opted out of the CFR (except yes really because the opt out was worded in a way such that it was essentially only symbolic)), and also subject to the ECHR, enforced by the ECtHR. After the UK left the EU, the UK was no longer bound by the CFR or the ECJ (except insofar as it still is, because of Northern Ireland [NI]), but it still is a member of the CoE and bound by the ECHR and the ECtHR.
Theoretically, the Equality and Human Rights Commission [EHRC] in the UK is responsible for promoting the rights of the ECHR, in addition to rights of the Equality Acts of 2006 and 2010.
I hope that clears everything up for people.
Sorry what
It was bad enough when Boris made protests illegal (did that ever go through) but this? This is disgusting.
How can Labour just do own goals day after day I do not know. At this point they’re just a continuation of the sad fucking state of Tory cabinets. From A team to B to D (was Rishi D? ) to fucking a big capital F with Starmer. I had such high hopes for them in the first week. Such lofty promises. But they’ve consistently let me down on an actual weekly basis.
It’s incredible really.
(I’ve now read the article) Ah ok it’s an actual activist group not just a blanket law applied to everyone….
Still…
Yes I foresaw Reforms rise during the election and discussed at length how it’s highly likely they will win the next one.
It’s incredible how they’re able to pull the wool over everyone’s eyes. There’s a flag on someone’s fence round the corner from me. A giant union flag with a reform banner underneath saying make Britain great again or something to that effect. A play on the words of Great Britain.
I feel like I need to deface it but like how a teacher would mark wrong work. They will not do anything of the sort. They’re liars, charlatans and grifters pretending to be about the people.
They will reform government alright, but not in the way the people would want or need.
I grew up in the 90s and to me everything was truly great until 2012. And then Nick Clegg personally fucked me over with university fees, and that’s when I realised the current political landscape isn’t for us. It’s just for them.
I hear Corbyn is starting a party
They tried and succeeded with BS antisemitism.
while I generally have zero faith in people I think they might be conscious enough to grasp this over used excuse.
Besides that, it's also not hard to see the Labours are/were not left these days.
I give them more credit than the hopeless US dems who eternally believe in their fake left party and think they can fix it.
Maybe they can link him to Russia, as bad as being antisemite these days.
BTW why do you say the BBC is 'the other hand'.
They are just as bad and shamelessly pushing whatever the regime tells them.
It's literally the purpose they were invented for.
OK, and true
Perfectly described. I am so ashamed that my vote gave us this. I did not expect greatness, just not Tory evil. How wrong I was.
The Tories would have done the exact same thing, so we're not in any worse situation than we would have been.
15 minutes to go! If you're gonna say it, be quick!
I'm tired, boss
Ah it's referring to a particular organization, Palestine Action
and they are already jailing people
You cheer for censorship when it aligns with your beliefs. Yet call the slippery slope a "fallacy."
See what happens?
Now that's a good looking straw man.
I can sort of see the point you’re trying to make (as I too in a comment have called for censorship but in a different and very specific context), but I feel that you’re not exactly acknowledging the issue being discussed in this thread which is that people won’t be able to state their thoughts about the government of a country that is killing people en masse.
It’s a moral position that should be easy to support: it’s wrong to ethnically cleanse a population of people.
When I commented that certain speech should be punished, it was in the context of speech that is easy to fact-check and speech that directly harms people. The expression of being against the current government of Israel doesn’t harm anyone (other than the masters behind the scenes, but even then it’s just their money/control being targeted).
Just because your argument is fallacious doesn't mean the conclusion is wrong.
"Black people are hot therefore they should be treated equally" is an example that I can immediately come up with.
This really is a big part of it. A lot of Democrats weren't upset about authoritarianism & fascism, they were upset it wasn't their version.
Can you give an example of what you mean?
I can think of people saying those who post misinformation that promote hate crimes should be held accountable. Aimlessly claiming trans people are pedophiles or saying you should lock up all 62,000,000 Latinos because of their ethnicity means they are automatically criminal shouldnt be promoted.
Those wants are for the same reason sites like Lemmy have rules. Is it because Lemmy is pro Authoritarians and Fascists? I don't think so.
Freedom of speech was never the liberty to say anything, it was the ability to speak out against your government. If someone is publishing that lead paint can cause harm to the populace, it is in the best interest of the population and shouldn't be censored, but if I am publishing that water based paints are causing cancer with no scientific backing of my claims because I run a oil based paint company, that information should be refuted and be held liable for impacts caused on water based paint companies.
Freedom of speech anyone?
Nor an equivalent? For the press even?
Well. You'll just have to write it somewhere. In paint perhaps. Maybe on a government building.
Does the colonies have too much power over The Commonwealth?
There needs to be more discussion around separating the country of Israel from its dominant religion. So when people refer to the systematic murder organised by the country, it's understood that it doesn't make any reference to the Jewish people.
People who accuse anti israel occupation of being antisemitic know very well that it's not the case
Just for the record, I support Palestine action. I condemn the genocide being perpetrated on the Palestinian people by the state of Israel.
Does free speech or democracy exist if the oligarchs/states that buy your politicians/rulers force you to support those states? What would Idi Amin do (perhaps most self enriching open corrupt ruler, or the narrative that gets pinned on a ruler who shifts away from US empire)? Or as in history, UK first decided it was illegal to oppose Idi Amin (support his rivals) to later being illegal to support Idi Amin?
"To know who rules over you, notice who you are not allowed to criticize"
IIUC, it is only Palestine support that is illegal. You may still advocate for UK/NATO war on Israel or at least elimination of support, and elimination of politicians who support Israel. Limiting speech to support for all wars your rulers prefer is the most oppressive of democratic speech.
Isn't this the group that broke into a military airbase and damage several aircraft resulting in million of pounds worth of damages? I mean the security breach and the intent to maliciously damage the equipment is more than enough grounds to label the group as a terrorist group. If a right wing group or any other groups did this, everybody here would be calling them terrorists, and rightfully so. It makes sense for the UK to label this group as such, especially since they didn't disavow the attack that happened.
The people who are trying to frame this as an attack on free speech are either full of shit and intentionally spreading misinformation or they're ignorant enough to get their information from people who are full of shit and intentionally spreading misinformation. This is something that clearly has nothing to do with free speech.
No, damaging property doesn't amount to terrorism. What world do you live in?
What most people understand as terrorism is the spreading of terror in the general population. Last time I checked, no one felt terrorized because some planes got spray painted.
Yes it does. In the UK, terrorism is defined more broadly, and the actions of this groups fall firmly within their legal definitions, hence why they were so swift with this designation.
https://justice.org.uk/counter-terrorism-human-rights/
You sure seem to be right about the broader definition! But legal or not, it still seems absolutely crazy to classify this type of property damage as terrorism to me... I have a hard time to see how to justify that beyond, of course, the technicalities of the definition in the UK
I think it has less to do with the property damage and more to do with the implications of the incident and the intent behind it.
You have a group of people who premeditated a plan to sneak into a highly secured RAF airbase without proper authorization with the intention to damage military equipment owned by the state. This is a major breach of national security, it is an act of sabotage, and it causes direct harm to the British state as it's a direct attempt to undermine the country's military capabilities for political purposes.
That's very good grounds to label the organization responsible as terrorist group. Keep in mind, agreeing or disagreeing with the cause of the activists is irrelevant here. You have to think about things from the point of the view of the state. If an attack like this doesn't get properly punished, then what kind of precedent would that set? Does any self righteous group get a free pass to damage public property and undermine national security? The state cannot allow such avenues of instability to take hold. A red line has to be firmly set, and those who cross it have to face consquences.
Oh trust me, I get that the state wants to punish this and set a red line, no doubt about that. That doesn't make the label of terrorist appropriate, there is plenty of things other than terrorism that are illegal. My idea of terrorism doesn't include this form of property damage, and labeling it as such seems to be what sets a dangerous precedent here.
But this is your personal opinion, and I happen to disagree with it. Your only point of contention here is not the act itself, just the terrorism label. Personally, I think you're focusing on the wrong things. The UK is a democratic country and the people voted in politicians that established their terrorism laws. These laws have been established law for decades, and thus, these laws are reflection of what terrorism mean to the British people. It's their definition, their laws, their punishments. This groups intentionally violated them for a political cause, they know they were going to face consequences for doing so, and they are.
The only way this becomes an issue if this standard is not applied universally or equally, which doesn't appear to be the case. The UK is not using terrorism laws to wrongly accuse other groups who didn't do anything of terrorism, they're not censoring people who advocate for the Palestinian cause because of this incident, and both the punishment this group is facing fits the crime in accordance with their laws. I don't see an issue here tbh
Oh I can tell you disagree with it! I'm quite happy with what I'm focusing on, I can see that you want to have a different conversation than whether it is crazy or not to classify this as terrorism, but I'm afraid I'm not interested in that. I feel like I've made my point clear enough, hopefully you feel the same.
military target not civilians.
The UK isn't at war dingus.
Then you might have a tyrannical government. In that case, definitions should be the least of your concerns.
There's literally nothing tyrannical about this situation.
On one hand, you have a democratic country, the UK, that has voted in a set of well defined laws that clearly outline what terrorism means, what can be considered as terrorism, and what the consequences are for terrorist acts. These legal parameters have been established law for decades.
On the other hand, you have an activist group, Palestinian Action, that knowing and intentionally chose to violate these laws by illegally sneaking into an RAF base and intentionally damaging military equipment for political purposes.
Considering how this is a malicious act of sabotage, a breach of national security, and an attempt to undermine the British state, this organization fits the criteria to be designated as a terrorist group. Because of this British politicians, quickly employed the established terrorism laws to give them the designation. Not only because what they did is considered terrorism in the country, but also because they don't want to set a precedent that this type of action gets a pass. They wanted to make it clear that such actions are an unacceptable red line, and those who cross will be swiftly punished.
So in essence. There were laws established democratically, a group intentionally violated them, and they're now facing the consequences of doing so. The UK is not censoring their activism cause, they're going after other groups that didn't do anything wrong, and this group is not being punished over any free speech grounds. Calling this tyranny is ignorance.
The Nazis also came to power democratically. The US regime is also hunting down immigrants in a gestapo like fashion democratically. Just because something is a law doesn't mean anything. It's also quite telling if your national security is tied to genociding children.
That's not how it works. You can't scream Nazis any time any government does anything. That's not what fascism is nor is it what tyranny is. You're just devaluing the meaning of these terms and showcasing your ignorance.
On the contrary, it matters a lot. The very foundation of liberal democracies is based on the idea that laws are everything. Nobody is above the law, everybody is equal in the eyes of the law, and the law is the public's will. You can agree or disagree with individual laws, however, that doesn't change the facts that laws are the source of legitimacy.
The UK here isn't ignoring it's laws, it's not creating new laws to target specific groups, nor is it using these laws to wrongly punish people who did nothing wrong. Their terrorism laws have been created by democratically elected politicians who reflect the will of their people, the laws they created and voted upon are universal and well defined, and these laws have been established law for decades.
This groups intentionally violated these laws, they knew what they were doing, and now they're facing the consequences of their actions. This isn't tyranny, this is a normal society punishing criminals for breaking the law. This also law isn't immoral because it seeks to ban harmful behavior in a fair and universal manner, and the punishments for these violations are all reasonable.
You don't seem to get it. Being self righteous doesn't give a free pass to be a terrorist no matter how you noble you think your cause is. If you excuse terrorism based on your ideological biases, then you don't even have any ground to stand on because your position isn't a principled one. No country is dumb enough to excuse group seeking to undermine their authority, damage public property, threaten national security, violate their laws, and sabotage public property, and rightfully so because they'll be inviting chaos, violence, and instability into their societies.
If they gave this group a pass then they'll be setting a precedent that other self righteous groups can get away with terrorism if they act like their cause is noble enough to be above the law. What kind of disastrous future would that bring? Are Russian Sympathizers now excused to go bomb the parliament when it's out session because they don't like the UK supporting Ukraine? Are Chinese sympathizers now excused to damage the London Bridge because the UK supports Taiwan and Tibet? Are a far right groups excused to sabotage the PJHQ because the UK supports immigration? Of course not, because that would be really, really stupid. If you do something wrong, you're going face the consequences for it, simple as.
UK Democracy has been scrapped for Israel. Let that sink in.
Or at this point, 7 hours ago.
Doing extremistic things and being surprised to be classified as extremists... Ahm... Alright...
Just say "I support Palestine" instead. Problem solved.... Saves oxygen and could have prevented the Lemmy post.
Is this really to appease Trump (maybe as part of the 10% tariffs)?
It started during covid, but nobody cared because the people being locked up were anti vaxxers. It didn't stop there. It never does.
Give us literally one example of someone being thrown in prison for expressing anti vax views, we'll all wait.
these guys got arrested, but not sure if they served jail time.
Yeah? Do you think that should be punishable with jail time?
More that it's more than them merely being antivax
Yes, they also expressed those views...
Hey look again from your own article it wasn't because they were anti vax
Didn't you say you weren't sure they served jail time lol.
I mean didn't even take the time to see it wasn't from being antivax, it was because they were being assholes to others or the cops asking them to stop
I was asking if he thought they should
The UK arrested people for being anti vax??
here you go