Cybersecurity engineers and pentesters don't need Kali or Parrot. You don't need Proxmox to use LXC and KVM. You don't need OpenMediaVault to have Samba and NFS shares. You don't need Clonezilla to make use of the OCS toolkit. You don't need LMDE to have a Debian OS with Cinnamon and nonfree drivers installed, or Endeavour to have Arch with KDE Plasma.
But it's sure as shit good to have everything packed together and preconfigured by professionals.
I mean, bait aside, creating a new distro with an existing package manager allows you to set up a different set of default packages and even add your own new/updated ones. That's the value of it there.
Ubuntu, Knoppix and MEPIS? I first used Ubuntu in 2006, but it was still very immature then. I didn’t really know much about any other Debian derivatives.
The other big one that was popular was Mandrake but that was rpm based, and a bit later PClinuxOS which was Mandrake based. I didn’t think Debian derivatives were much of a thing then aside from Ubuntu.
There are at least a couple of distros that are based on Ubuntu. Mint is a popular example. I'd say that based on Ubuntu means it is also a Debian derivative.
Mint didn’t really see any sort of popularity until around 2010 as I remember.
I’m aware it’s initial release was earlier (surprised it was exist in 06!), but the reality of those times is that Ubuntu was still building itself up let alone Mint getting traction yet.
New distros get a lot of crap, but often they are solving a need for someone.
Take Windowmaker Live: ostensibly it's just Debian + Windowmaker. I have seen comments saying why not just install WM on Debian? By asking that question, it's clear the asker hasnt tried recently. There is a lot to configure, and there are lots of usability papercuts.
A custom distro allows someone to fix those problems for themself, and share those fixes with others. It's not fragmentation, it's just FOSS.
It would help more people to improve the installer for difficult-to-install software rather than creating an entire operating system around that software. Using the entire operating system as an installer is over the top
Don't know the case for this - but there are absolutely cases where the merger is blocked for some reason, and why not just fix it yourself with a distro? It hurts nobody.
Yeah I'm reading what they said and that kind of solution wouldn't be acceptable in any industry...
Imagine if you wanted to add AC to your central heating system and they told you they need to add a second furnace in parallel to the one you already have because it's possible to add AC to your current setup, but it's very complicated to do so...
If you improve the installer to the point it can install any combination of software together (including incompatible versions of deps) you end up with NixOS again
I'd say actually a bit of the opposite. Generally speaking we don't need a new package manager or init system, and better hardware support is almost entirely a kernel concern (one might make an argument that the loose bits of key management and tpm2 tools and authentication agents could be better integrated for "Windows Hello" type function I suppose, but I doubt that's what the meme had in mind.
Not really needing to reinvent the wheel on those, we got a variety of wheels, sometimes serving different sensibilities, sometimes any difference in capability went away long ago (rpm/dnf v. deb/apt).
The best motivation I can think of at this point is to make specialty distribution that is 'canned' toward a specific use case. Even then it's probably best to be an existing distribution under the covers. I think Proxmox is a good example, it's just Debian but installer made to just do Proxmox. You want to do automated installation? Just use Debian and then add Proxmox (the official recommendation), because they have no particular insight on automated deployment, so why not just defer to an existing facility?
The biggest conceptual change in packaging has been "waste as much disk as you like duplicating dependencies to avoid conflicting dependencies", maybe with "use namespace and cgroup isolation to better control app interactions" and we have snap, flatpak, appimage, and nix very well covering the gamut for that concept.
For init, we have the easy to modify sysv init, or the more capable but more inscrutable systemd. I don't see a whole lot of opportunity between those two sorts of options already.
It's usually easier to criticize something than to go through the effort of understanding it. Posts like the OP are an example of that.
... And ironically, your post is doing the same thing here with software packaging:
The biggest conceptual change in packaging has been “waste as much disk as you like duplicating dependencies to avoid conflicting dependencies”,
Nobody is perfect, so it's important to keep an open mind about things, especially when one don't understand them, and especially² when one thinks they understand them as it's always possible to be wrong (unless they don't care about going through life as an ignorant asshole. Plenty of people thrive like that.)
I understand it fine, and it's not just a packaging phenomonon, all sorts of software developers have stopped trying to have consensus on platform and instead 'just ship the box'. 99% of the time a python application will demand at least virtualenv. Golang, well, you are just going to staticly build (at least LTO means less unrelated stuff comes along for the ride). Of course docker style packaging is bring the whole distro. I'll give credit to snap and flatpak that at least allow packaging to have external dependency packages to mitigate it somewhat.
i like novel implementations of these things, it's the reason why linux as it is today is so good, people were willing to try novel methods of package management, and the repo worked great.
Every project eventually makes their own package manager. Its pretty insane if you stop and think about how routinely the package manager is re-invented.
Where is that comic about standards now that we need it? The one where they create a new standard that is going to solve all the problems, except for now there is just one more standard??
Back in 2000 I started using Linux with RedHat (That's what they were teaching us in college then.) and got to know RPMs before the automatic package dependency resolution tools. Then I moved to Ubuntu in 2004 and have been using that since, and even had a job where I built custom Linux distros based on Debian where I had to build DEB packages, so I got to know that system pretty well.
But, honestly, if there are better package managers out there I wouldn't mind changing if it means we all use the same thing.
Upgrade 22 LTS upgrade to Ubuntu 24 LTS failed and I forgot the upgrade didn't succeed when I rebooted. Unlike NixOS, it doesn't roll all the changes back when the upgrade is unsuccessful
I don't know if Flatpak can cover all the scenarios. It seems to be mostly for Desktop apps. I know Ubuntu was able to have system tools installed with Snaps though. However, having apps installed with their dependencies in one package is neat, but it takes a ton more in storage.
Flatpak is a great extra layer to have on top of a regular package manager, but I wouldn't use it as a sole package management system.
All the different distros are all about the vibe and not a lot else. The Linux kernel remains pretty much the same and we just choose different window dressings.
I suppose we could role it all back to Debian Stable and Slackware I guess. Do we need a "Distro Thanos?" Besides, without all those different distros, how you gonna surf?
After doing a quick search, I don't see enough differences for the Zen kernel to claim it's so special. The main line kernel has to be a "one size fits all" from servers to gaming and anything in between. Zen is just a recompiled mainline kernel with some chosen optimizations for better specific use cases-- mostly desktop/gaming. Which is nothing I can't do if I recompile my bog standard Fedora kernel for those optimizations.
Just a reminder that nix packages works on most any distro, and then they work like other universal packages, but without the sandboxing
NixOS is just when you take this to the logical conclusion and have every part of the distro packaged in Nix, including configuring your OS, and optionally your users configuration files as well.
Does my distro qualify for this? I already implemented my own package manager and init system in Rust, and the only thing to do is to port build scripts from Arch to my format and make an ISO.
So it is basically just like choosing which app to access reddit with, except that if i choose the wrong app i might be auto-banned from a lot of the subs?
Also, i won't see stuff i am searching for sometimes, because the distros sometimes make trouble if someone else hasn't already subscribed? Or is that only on mastodon?
I am using Voyager, and chose lemm.ee for no apparent reason. But so far, it just feels like a shittier version of reddit but with better mods? I dunno.
And you're on c/linux memes talking about "distros" (short for linux distributions) as if they were lemmy servers. You won't be banned anywhere just because you install the distro ubuntu, none of it has anything to do with reddit, lemmy, mastodon, nor voyager. To put it quite simply, it does indeed seem that you are confusing linux distros with lemmy servers. Otherwise you're purposefully off topic I suppose, which, ok I guess.
Cybersecurity engineers and pentesters don't need Kali or Parrot. You don't need Proxmox to use LXC and KVM. You don't need OpenMediaVault to have Samba and NFS shares. You don't need Clonezilla to make use of the OCS toolkit. You don't need LMDE to have a Debian OS with Cinnamon and nonfree drivers installed, or Endeavour to have Arch with KDE Plasma.
But it's sure as shit good to have everything packed together and preconfigured by professionals.
Or if not professionals at least someone who knows more about it than yourself.
And even if they don't, they know enough to do it to a level I am happy to not bother doing it myself.
Or at least willing to push whatever barely working bullshit they forgot to test.
Clonezilla is more like an app that comes with an OS on a liveCD for convenience, as it's troublesome to use the very OS you're cloning.
Yeah its a program that has a minimal OS. Its more about the program than the operating system.
I'm not sure I'd go to the lengths of using OMV just to have a samba share.
Maybe the existence of these distros (appliances) is a sign of the state of Linux.
May the next distro win.
Actually, create as many distros as you like and can!
Hannah Montana 2: Electric Boogaloo Distro Incoming!!!!!!
featuring Dante from Devil May Cry!
And Knuckles!
Except for distros like Apartheid Linux ... maybe uncreate those.
Musk has a distro???
Don't give him any ideas...
"Distro of Gaming Excellence"
I don't want to search this... Wth is it?
nazi distro
How? Why? I can't even
I mean, bait aside, creating a new distro with an existing package manager allows you to set up a different set of default packages and even add your own new/updated ones. That's the value of it there.
Eh I guess, but really just define your own meta packages and use arch 😄
This should be in c/ControversialOpinions.
Take it a step further and declaratively configure your entire installation with nixos
Literally tons of distros could be some
lib.mkDefaultnixos configs. And they would get a package manager improvement.btw
(it was implied 😜)
But that doesn't deserve to count as a separate distro. At best it's just a variant, like the relationship between Kubuntu and Ubuntu.
Ship of Theseus.
How much do you need to change to make a new distro? Is Linux Mint still Ubuntu? Or is Ubuntu still Debian?
Or do, that guy isn't your boss. If he is, what are you doing listening to him about non work stuff he seems like a gatekeeper kina guy.
But what if... I took Debian, and disguised it as my own distro? Ho ho ho! Delightfuly devilish, Seymore!
Ubuntu, Knoppix and MEPIS? I first used Ubuntu in 2006, but it was still very immature then. I didn’t really know much about any other Debian derivatives.
The other big one that was popular was Mandrake but that was rpm based, and a bit later PClinuxOS which was Mandrake based. I didn’t think Debian derivatives were much of a thing then aside from Ubuntu.
There are at least a couple of distros that are based on Ubuntu. Mint is a popular example. I'd say that based on Ubuntu means it is also a Debian derivative.
Mint didn’t really see any sort of popularity until around 2010 as I remember.
I’m aware it’s initial release was earlier (surprised it was exist in 06!), but the reality of those times is that Ubuntu was still building itself up let alone Mint getting traction yet.
Daring today, aren't we
Mmm, systemd clams.
I mean Linux wouldn't be as it is actually without Hannah Montana Linux and Justin Bieber Linux
Don't forget UwUntu!
Exactly!
I also forgot about the (in)famous AmogOS
I patiently await Christopher Walken Linux.
They can go ahead and create all they want. I just wont use any of them unless they give me a reason.
Exactly! Nobody has to listen to OP and change plans because OP doesn't approve! Like you, OP is free to NOT use the product!
Nah. Push them out like rabbits do with their babies. Let them fight and see which ones prevail!
Idk, it's a hobby. There's no problem with new distros. If they're good, they take off, if not, it's going to be a niche project. No issue at all.
It's more than a hobby. That's kinda the point.
We already have NixOS, why anything else?
(Guix is cool too).
A good wiki for it?
https://wiki.nixos.org/wiki/NixOS_Wiki
Still lacking a bit of information about specific stuff.
https://nixos.wiki/
Unofficial should have the same information, but sometimes there is a discrepancy.
https://search.nixos.org/options
For any option you might need the name of.
https://nixos.org/manual/nixos/stable/options.html
For basically anything else where you just have the implementation documentation
Gentoo with an external build server. (for storage ir performanceconstrained systems)
Does it use Systemd? If so, then we need something else.
Derive something from PCLinuxOS please, but with actual anaconda kick-starts.
Doesn't have too! You can just use nix as a package manager and install it to whatever distro you choose 😉
The services it installs are systemd, though
Uhhh, there are no alternatives to SystemD right now.
While different inits exists and they work just as well as SystemD, there is no replacement for the whole suite of programs.
See PostmarketOS, they ended up adding SystemD because it ends up being either thar or reinventing the wheel.
Imho SystemD gets a lot of hate for no reason at all. (Not saying it is perfect at all).
Choose a distro by the default wallpaper.
In that case uwuntu for life.
By logo openSUSE ftw
New distros get a lot of crap, but often they are solving a need for someone.
Take Windowmaker Live: ostensibly it's just Debian + Windowmaker. I have seen comments saying why not just install WM on Debian? By asking that question, it's clear the asker hasnt tried recently. There is a lot to configure, and there are lots of usability papercuts.
A custom distro allows someone to fix those problems for themself, and share those fixes with others. It's not fragmentation, it's just FOSS.
It would help more people to improve the installer for difficult-to-install software rather than creating an entire operating system around that software. Using the entire operating system as an installer is over the top
You're both right
Don't know the case for this - but there are absolutely cases where the merger is blocked for some reason, and why not just fix it yourself with a distro? It hurts nobody.
Maybe a script or deployment tool config would suffice
Maybe one you could just download and pipe to bash. /s
ansible-pull and kickstart was what I had in mind
I figured, I was playing on the number of github repos with instructions for curl pipe bash combos.
You're re-inventing the Nix tool which is exactly a script that sets up all the programs and services you want to install
Except no one really uses Nix outside of Nix OS. It is slow and complicated for little reason.
Just use Ansible and an answers file
Then how come we have more packages than the AUR?
And don't say it's because we packaged Python and Haskell stuff since we have more non-unique packages too
Isn't it just that though?
Yeah I'm reading what they said and that kind of solution wouldn't be acceptable in any industry...
Imagine if you wanted to add AC to your central heating system and they told you they need to add a second furnace in parallel to the one you already have because it's possible to add AC to your current setup, but it's very complicated to do so...
If you improve the installer to the point it can install any combination of software together (including incompatible versions of deps) you end up with NixOS again
Much like how crustaceans have repeatedly evolved into pseudo-crabs, Linux distros tend to evolve into pseudo-nix
+1, kubuntu was a lot simpler than installing KDE on Ubuntu and still having grub applications
Cat on a table.jpg says:
"I'm going to create a new distro by changing the name of Debian"
I too know how to run
sed -r!I'd say actually a bit of the opposite. Generally speaking we don't need a new package manager or init system, and better hardware support is almost entirely a kernel concern (one might make an argument that the loose bits of key management and tpm2 tools and authentication agents could be better integrated for "Windows Hello" type function I suppose, but I doubt that's what the meme had in mind.
Not really needing to reinvent the wheel on those, we got a variety of wheels, sometimes serving different sensibilities, sometimes any difference in capability went away long ago (rpm/dnf v. deb/apt).
The best motivation I can think of at this point is to make specialty distribution that is 'canned' toward a specific use case. Even then it's probably best to be an existing distribution under the covers. I think Proxmox is a good example, it's just Debian but installer made to just do Proxmox. You want to do automated installation? Just use Debian and then add Proxmox (the official recommendation), because they have no particular insight on automated deployment, so why not just defer to an existing facility?
The biggest conceptual change in packaging has been "waste as much disk as you like duplicating dependencies to avoid conflicting dependencies", maybe with "use namespace and cgroup isolation to better control app interactions" and we have snap, flatpak, appimage, and nix very well covering the gamut for that concept.
For init, we have the easy to modify sysv init, or the more capable but more inscrutable systemd. I don't see a whole lot of opportunity between those two sorts of options already.
It's usually easier to criticize something than to go through the effort of understanding it. Posts like the OP are an example of that.
... And ironically, your post is doing the same thing here with software packaging:
Nobody is perfect, so it's important to keep an open mind about things, especially when one don't understand them, and especially² when one thinks they understand them as it's always possible to be wrong (unless they don't care about going through life as an ignorant asshole. Plenty of people thrive like that.)
I understand it fine, and it's not just a packaging phenomonon, all sorts of software developers have stopped trying to have consensus on platform and instead 'just ship the box'. 99% of the time a python application will demand at least virtualenv. Golang, well, you are just going to staticly build (at least LTO means less unrelated stuff comes along for the ride). Of course docker style packaging is bring the whole distro. I'll give credit to snap and flatpak that at least allow packaging to have external dependency packages to mitigate it somewhat.
i like novel implementations of these things, it's the reason why linux as it is today is so good, people were willing to try novel methods of package management, and the repo worked great.
Every project eventually makes their own package manager. Its pretty insane if you stop and think about how routinely the package manager is re-invented.
For real. I don't mind the million distributions, but can we agree on one single package manager?
Where is that comic about standards now that we need it? The one where they create a new standard that is going to solve all the problems, except for now there is just one more standard??
Edit: https://xkcd.com/927
We don't even need a new standard. Let's just settle for one of the existing ones.
I'm okay with this, as long as it's the one I'm using
And which one is that?
Nix, if it's not obvious from my other posts
I have to check it out.
Every time someone complains, another package manager is created
Sure! As long as it's nixpkgs.
Apt+snap
No
I'm mildly impressed no-ones downvoted me to hell yet.
Your "no-ones" just caused me great internal confusion.
I just googled noone...
I've definitely missed an apostrophe there.
I'm reporting this for trolling. lol
the number of package managers went up by 1
There are only two options that fix dependency hell. Nix and Guix
Back in 2000 I started using Linux with RedHat (That's what they were teaching us in college then.) and got to know RPMs before the automatic package dependency resolution tools. Then I moved to Ubuntu in 2004 and have been using that since, and even had a job where I built custom Linux distros based on Debian where I had to build DEB packages, so I got to know that system pretty well.
But, honestly, if there are better package managers out there I wouldn't mind changing if it means we all use the same thing.
I've broken both Fedora and Ubuntu already, so I had to find better solutions. With NixOS I can roll back to a previous revision easily on boot
How do you break Ubuntu?
Upgrade 22 LTS upgrade to Ubuntu 24 LTS failed and I forgot the upgrade didn't succeed when I rebooted. Unlike NixOS, it doesn't roll all the changes back when the upgrade is unsuccessful
Aaah I see. Ok. I can see why Nix appeals so much to you.
As I said, I need to try it out. I'm gonna download it right now and try it in a VM.
Flatpak it is.
I don't know if Flatpak can cover all the scenarios. It seems to be mostly for Desktop apps. I know Ubuntu was able to have system tools installed with Snaps though. However, having apps installed with their dependencies in one package is neat, but it takes a ton more in storage.
Flatpak is a great extra layer to have on top of a regular package manager, but I wouldn't use it as a sole package management system.
I think an immutable system package manager like Nix is perfect to supplement Flatpak.
Not really
There are only a few mainstream package formats and ultimately you are going to probably be using distro packages or portable formats like Flatpak.
All the different distros are all about the vibe and not a lot else. The Linux kernel remains pretty much the same and we just choose different window dressings.
I suppose we could role it all back to Debian Stable and Slackware I guess. Do we need a "Distro Thanos?" Besides, without all those different distros, how you gonna surf?
So don't harsh the vibes man.
< Do we need a Distro Thanos? > Ubuntu has enough snaps for all the distros!
So you've never tried the Zen Kernel?
No I haven't bothered to surf that one up yet. But, if it's vastly different, then it's not Linux and not germane to this meme.
Is Linux, called linux-zen on some package managers.
But is different than the LTS Kernel, which is also different than the pre-release kernels, which are also different than the stable kernels.
So idk, "what is" Linux and what's not, according to you.
Maybe you thinking of GNU Hurd? Or the Darwin kernel?
After doing a quick search, I don't see enough differences for the Zen kernel to claim it's so special. The main line kernel has to be a "one size fits all" from servers to gaming and anything in between. Zen is just a recompiled mainline kernel with some chosen optimizations for better specific use cases-- mostly desktop/gaming. Which is nothing I can't do if I recompile my bog standard Fedora kernel for those optimizations.
I never said it was special, but I'm glad you searched bud!
FU I won't do what you tell me!
Do you have a minute to talk about GNU Guix?
May I introduce you to left parenthesis and right parenthesis? May I further introduce you to millions of parentheses?
Anti Commercial-AI license
Honestly I'm kind of excited for the infrastructure as code tools. I think it is only going to get easier to customize a install quickly.
Hardware support is not really the province of distro, to me. Which makes them even more ridiculous.
Lol no.
Or a new based DE, like with new libs and frameworks for making ui
At least own the libs
Make your own framework just to own the libs.
Owning libs in this economy? You'll have to settle for renting a few.
No need to make a new distro, just package it into NixOS
Just a reminder that nix packages works on most any distro, and then they work like other universal packages, but without the sandboxing
NixOS is just when you take this to the logical conclusion and have every part of the distro packaged in Nix, including configuring your OS, and optionally your users configuration files as well.
Good point
ALSO BRING BACK HANNAH MONTANA
Sorry, the best I can do is busybox as init.
Ah good, so
::: spoiler NSFW distro open at your own risk YiffOS :::
is okay
Well, it lacks a proper bootstrap and its documentation is basically empty trash.
hell live bootstrap has those and did it without requiring a file system or a kernel to get there https://github.com/fosslinux/live-bootstrap
What's so NSFW about it?
yiff is furry sex
Oh.
Does my distro qualify for this? I already implemented my own package manager and init system in Rust, and the only thing to do is to port build scripts from Arch to my format and make an ISO.
This post and comments create a whirlwind of emotion. What do I believe!?
Yep, your talent can be used elsewhere. Whether it's a new program or contributions to open spurce
I miss Pardus... Yali and Kaptan were the best
I wonder how many people genuinely used Pardus for just being Pardus until the Turkish government fucked it up
I knew at least 3, including me. It was the first distro that recognized my wacom tablet and could do adjustments on it
average yiffos distro experience really.
Only 5 distros exist: Debian, Ubuntu, Linux Mint, RHEL/Fedora, and built it yourself.
You listed Debian three times.
Debian or Debian based
Ubuntu based
Fedora and atomic distros
Arch
Bonus: Nix
Extra:
Linux Mint
Bazzite
Void? Alpine? Guix?
Alpine sort of used but it is pretty niche and is mostly using in containers.
Void and Guix both have tiny market share and lack a use case
Arch is basically Debian with extra steps. Doesn’t count.
It is basically Debian except for it is nothing like Debian.
Right!
I don't get it
Nor do I, and I use both Arch and Debian exclusively.
Eh ... Mint is Ubuntu based, Ubuntu is Debian based so they're all Debian ... Also Arch? ^I ^use ^Arch ^btw
And OpenSUSE?
Arch? Isn’t that just CRUX?
Do you count openSuSE as rhel? Also mint is just Ubuntu, and Ubuntu is not Debian because Ubuntu has more up to date drivers software and what not.
I don't really get this distro thing.
So it is basically just like choosing which app to access reddit with, except that if i choose the wrong app i might be auto-banned from a lot of the subs?
Also, i won't see stuff i am searching for sometimes, because the distros sometimes make trouble if someone else hasn't already subscribed? Or is that only on mastodon?
I am using Voyager, and chose lemm.ee for no apparent reason. But so far, it just feels like a shittier version of reddit but with better mods? I dunno.
Edit: turns out i was indeed confused.
I think you're confused between a Linux distro and a Lemmy server
Never touched linux
And you're on c/linux memes talking about "distros" (short for linux distributions) as if they were lemmy servers. You won't be banned anywhere just because you install the distro ubuntu, none of it has anything to do with reddit, lemmy, mastodon, nor voyager. To put it quite simply, it does indeed seem that you are confusing linux distros with lemmy servers. Otherwise you're purposefully off topic I suppose, which, ok I guess.
You're right, i was confused then 😂
Android is Linux
Okay yes thank you, but we both know what was meant.
I cringed so bad reading this.