Valve dev says SteamOS isn't about killing Windows: 'If a user has a good experience on Windows, there's no problem'
https://www.pcgamer.com/gaming-industry/valve-dev-says-steamos-isnt-about-killing-windows-if-a-user-has-a-good-experience-on-windows-theres-no-problem/Open linkView original on lemm.ee478
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For real, the “if” in that sentence could reasonably win an Olympic powerlifting competition
its honest a boon for gamers as microsoft now actually has to spend more effort making windows betters for gamers then spending all of its effort on windows for arm and AI. one of the things windows as an OS lacks is that the handheld experience is actually trash, and the OS is a resource hog for a handheld device
They tried to make the handheld experience better in windows 8... 🤣
imo the metro take of windows 8 wasn't the wrong approach for its intended market(tablets) it's just forcing it on desktop/laptop users as well as a boneheaded decision.
They need to stop forcing windows changes for ALL users, including to the users that can't use said features properly (as it was designed with touch screens in mind, and not everyone had touchscreens). Same idea with the more recent stuff involving Recall. not everyone has AI capable pcs, so its dumb to include the change to all users that will exist on the main branch of the OS, and would apply down the line to windows handhelds as well, who will likely not need recall as a feature as its using up resources. And im not like a person whose like fully Anti AI either, it just has its specific userbase that may need it, and there are others (like with a windows handheld case) that should not have it at all, as it is likely a detriment to battery if enabled by default.
That's what I was implying with the elipses, I just couldn't be bothered writing all that 😅
Microsoft keeps doing it, and I don't expect they'll do anything different this time. They'll shove handheld UI into work laptops and piss off a ton of people, and then 5 years down the line they'll tear out a lot of work that they did and leave behind some remnant bloat
Honestly the metro design language didn't look particularly attractive for touch screens either. I knew someone with a Nokia Windows Phone, the interface seemed... clunky. Quirky but not in the right ways.
It has to cater to mice and fingers, and so ends up with the lowest common denominator. Can't have information density because of the butter fingers, can't have neat swiping gestures because of the mice and especially trackpads. So, big squares and huge buttons, repeat ad nauseum. Like a DUPLO set.
Surely the UI/UX designers and Microsoft knew this, but I guess Ballmer had his way. Meanwhile Valve didn't have to contend with cranky executives, so they just slapped Big Picture on top of KDE and let use decide when to switch between console mode and desktop mode.
Competition is always great. To be fair, Windows wasn't really designed with a handheld game console in mind as its target distribution platform. SteamOS, at least its current version, was designed for that exact purpose. Would definitely welcome a more lightweight Windows to come from this though, not just for handhelds but just regular desktops too.
That "If" is doing some heavy lifting in that sentence. Really interested to see where SteamOS goes in the future.
I can't wait to try it
See that's how you get people to like you more. Not whatever the hell social media CEOs keep doing.
They don't care about being liked, they just want to prop up the oligarchy by controlling access to information.
The way that's worded implies that the only way it can hurt Windows is if Windows sucks. Subtle and true. Do better Microsoft. Or don't. We don't care, we're just doing our own thing.
Killing windows would just be a little happy accident
Windows 7 was the last time I had that experience lol
98 Good
ME Bad
XP Good
Vista Bad
7 Good
8 Bad
10 Good
11 Bad
Let me know when 12 is out I guess...
Remember when windows said 10 would be the last version of windows, and they’d just keep sending updates from then on? That lie didn’t last long…
And they’re EoLing it this coming October! Can’t they wait until 12 at least to do that? I can’t remember the last time the end of life came before two versions had gone by. Wtf!
They’re desperate to get people on to 11.
Pepperidge farm remembers
Windows 365 is next
Ohhh, I can't wait to pay a sub for my OS... that I will have no control over
As a computer os, it was great. Using it to play games not so much. I had quite a few that wouldn't work with 2000.
It really was. Super stable and no bullshit. Peak windows UI IMO.
Dunno bout 10 being good though. I can only stand it cuz i have Classic Shell
10 is tolerable at best. Still get annoying notifications about shit I haven't asked for and nag screens about how my PC isn't compatible with 11 and what I need to do to update. Also the settings menu is dogshit compared to 7.
Windows 11 is to Windows 10 what XP was to 2000. Stop it.
Not a perfect analogy, but it fits. 11 is literally 10 with a higher build number and a different shell. The same relation exists between 2000 and XP.
The problem is that the shell is what people interact with, and what they equate “Windows” with. Which is understandable and to some extent even correct.
I also think there’s a fair amount of memory bias. People complained about every new Windows version.
If the number is odd, then it'll be great.
Windows feels like a bit of a sinking ship. Not entirely, and it's slow, but the feeling is present and consistent. I don't want to keep having to rip apart the OS to remove shit they shoved onto my hardware without my consent. I just want an easyish experience that I can do my shit on, and they aren't really interested in that it feels.
In comparison to that, alternatives like steam os sounds great to your average user.
Well yeah... Windows users can still use Steam. They sell games. They don't want people to switch anything; they wanna sell more games.
And they want to hedge against Windows trying to monopolise the gaming market. You know, the kind of thing government oversight used to prevent in days gone by.
tbh i have more faith in Gabe and val e than the DoJ
Honestly it's not that Gabe or Valve is a FOSS champion, it's just that FOSS is the only viable alternative to a potential Windows walled garden, so it's what they used.
If SteamOS plays a significant role in killing Windows, the credit will still belong to the FOSS movement. They are the ones that laid the ground for SteamOS to stand on, and they are the ones who ensured it couldn't be fenced in once more.
good point!
Microsoft wants all future apps to go through their store. Basically like Apple does in Mac [ appears you can ]. I do believe this is the future for Windows apps. Once that happens, Valve running on Windows will be second fiddle. Valve's only choice is to migrate to another OS or end up like Mozilla.
Mac user here. I never use the App Store.
I recently thought I had to use it, dug up a 15 year old account, because some hardware utility for a mobile Brother printer was only available from the store. After installing the tool it turns out it didn't even have the function I needed (firmware update of the printer).
That was annoying. And merely having the account signed in also prevented our IT support department from copying my user folder over to the new laptop properly, so we had to do it twice.
Now I'm happily back to not having apple id signed in. (Well... as happy as I can be while still having to use macOS)
They'll never be able to force that.
It would instantly break compatibility with >99% of windows software.
They are trying with Windows S but i don't think it has much of a market.
Holy misinformation Batman! You don’t have to use the App store for anything on MacOS. Matter of fact many popular apps are not found in the AppStore at all.
iPhone and iPad may be walled gardens but I’ll go out on a limb here and say that MacOS is actually more open than Windows or at the very least it’s as open.
Thought Mac store was required. Guess not.
That's cheeky.
Windows: So you're saying there's a chance
I was saying death to Windows.
The killing is more a side effect than the actual goal. Got it.
It's about making more steam users. Windows is great, they can use steam. They're going after people who can't afford a pc. If people get a deck or steamos who already do own one, that's just gravy
The weird thing with this is i became a pc gamer precisely because it was the cheapest platform.
Most homes had/have a desktop pc. The hardware was mostly irrelevant because Low graphics settings where default and actually looked more readable then the dlss blurs of today.
Agree, depending on what you prefer it can be the cheapest or most expensive option. I remember playing left 4 dead windowed at 480p when it first came out
yup. valve makes a ton off windows users.
in the end, it's all about money. or rather, the endless pursuit of more.
I've finally banished Windows to a virtual machine, and am gearing up to fistfight Easy:
Anti-cheatRootkit AKA Fucking piece of shit that does precisely fuck-all to stop cheating despite having access to kernel space in order to get Sea of Thieves working on my virtual machine.Lemme know if you figure out how to get that working
Update: It's now working.
Oh nice, congrats! Could you share info about it? That's been my biggest barrier to dropping Windows as a gamer with many games that I enjoy using root access anti cheats.
I followed a tutorial meant to bypass Easy: Anticheat for VRchat. I manually defined the hardware names and versions of some of my computer's components in KVM's XML code. It wasn't very difficult and only took about 30 minutes in total, setting up GPU passthrough was difficult though.
Thanks so much for the info!
I need Windows to die because I'm tired of having to use it just to get proper HDR and Nvidia support. Or at the very least, AMD GPUs need to get better.
It's not about killing windows… but if it were to have an accident, y'know… I'm just sayin'…
Honestly almost everything works on my steam deck. The only things that don't work are online only games with anti-cheat, and I barely ever touch those. I could possibly make the leap on my main pc to be fully steamos
Make the switch to Linux, by all means but I don't think you should use SteamOS as a desktop OS.
Especially if SteamOS remains immutable when it lands, then I really won't be able to suggest it except for situations like "my kids have a habit of blowing up their computers" or something.
I actually like immutable OSes exactly because most people do have a habit of blowing up their computers.
All I want is for people to make informed choices when picking an OS for a machine. An immutable OS has value in the right circumstances, but if you weren't expecting that it would definitely be frustrating.
My kids play on my Steam Deck so I know all too well how useful it can be lol. I've done many Windows reinstallations in my time.
But have you tried to use one as a daily? Concept is great, but I wanted to erase kinoite from the face of the planet about 4 hous in.
Other than SteamOS on my SteamDeck, no but I was considering making the switch to Kinoite.
Maybe try vm first, make sure you want it.
Probably a good idea but I hate switching distros and generally try to avoid it until I break the one I'm using and then I go all in. I have a bunch of backups so it should be fine.
Yet or ever
Ever. It's not a desktop OS.
Darn, so you mean "We expect most SteamOS users to get SteamOS preinstalled on a Steam Machine" meaning handhelds?
Here I thought maybe they would go full fledged desktop OS 😞
I don't think they mean necessarily handhelds but definitely console-like machines. Like the OG steam machines.
Thank you
SteamOS is about Valve not paying Microsoft a license fee. It's not some egalitarian move by them but a cost saving. From a game dev's perspective it's additional cost and effort to port a game, or hope it runs under emulation with Proton.
I am surprised they haven't used it for cloud gaming yet since that's where the real cost savings kick in but I bet they're still saving on each Steam Deck they sell without Windows on it.
Shots fired!
Kill windows we must.
Windows is done. The only thing that can save it is if they turn it into a spy machine that can do your laundry. Then users will happily give them the keys to their lives and underwear.
the only one that can kill windows is microsoft
Big "if" these days
In other words, git gud scrub
git: 'gud' is not a git command. See 'git --help'.Sounds like a skill issue
What about Microsoft isn't a hollowed shell at this point? Maybe letting go of the gamers will let them find out a new way to make money.
Ouch, someone got roasted!
It's about making money and buy valve ceo a new mega yacht
it's about enabling the PC gaming ecosystem, removing barriers to people who want to create games.
The entirety of valve's motives post HL2 has been pushing this, from the steam OS to the steam workshop and how it worked with TF2
Their main product is a proprietary third party software launcher. Valve is a for profit company that goes as down as pushing gambling to kids in order to milk more billions for its ceo.
https://www.pcgamingwiki.com/wiki/The_big_list_of_DRM-free_games_on_Steam
How come they allow the sales of games that don't use their launcher?
It's not about killing Windows.
It's about slowing making G*mers comfortable with the idea of Valve's own closed off ecosystem.
They have already made G*mers comfortable with not owning their games, loot boxes, micro transactions.
This is just another example of Valve being the money grubbing, monopolistic, anti-consumer company that they've somehow got away with for years now.
I'm not sure that Valve working to making Linux gaming a smoother experience is a strong example of them being money grubbing and anti-consumer.
Of course, but that isn't what they're saying in response to the topic of the post: the question of what the point in making steamOS available for PC's is. Is it the main reason? I'm not sure it is, but you can be sure that if it isn't contributing to Valve's bottom line in some way, it wouldn't be happening.
I assume the primary reason for Valve supporting Linux is to protect themselves against possible hostility from Microsoft. So yeah, it's a business decision to protect Valve's profits; but frankly - it's also beneficial to everyone who isn't Microsoft.
Overall, I'm not a great fan of Steam. (And generally it's me talking down Steam; recommending itch.io and GOG; and sometimes even defending Epic against what I think are unfair attacks.) But here I'm just saying that I don't really see the negative of Valve creating Steam OS. Although I don't intend to use Steam OS, I think I'm already benefiting from the support Valve has given Linux to create Steam OS.
Just to be totally clear: Steam OS is a distro for the Steam Deck. It's great that they based their handheld's OS on Linux. There is pretty much universal agreement that is a net positive for gamers. Up until recently, there wasn't a way to install Steam OS on a device other than a Steam deck, except by using third party tools to hack together a bootable version of the Deck's recovery image. That's now changed - Valve have recently released generic install images of Steam OS. Hence this post about a Valve dev's comments about Steam OS competing more directly with Windows, which it previously did not on really any level.
I don't think anyone in the thread is positing that Valve creating Steam OS is a negative. I and the other poster are saying that regardless of whether the dev's comments are truthful, the reason Valve has now released Steam OS more widely is money-oriented, not some altruistic act toward gamers. The benefits to gamers generally associated with Steam OS are simply not related to this new development. Steam OS is not an especially useful distribution for PC gamers. For example, it doesn't include Nvidia drivers like other gaming-oriented Linux distros. But one feature it does have is that it's inseparable from the Steam ecosystem. And while you could describe Steam as "a games store", you could just as easily and accurately describe it as "a DRM platform". In other words, anti-consumer, money-grubbing, etc.
I won't say I told you so when in four years Valve starts offering exclusives to those using SteamOS.
Unless some major structural changes happen at Valve (Gabe leaves and/or the company goes public), I sincerely doubt they would ever do this.
Gabe. The same Gabe that has profited off micro transactions, lootboxes, and selling unfinished games. That Gabe?
You already have to use workarounds to get non-steam games to work on SteamOS.
Let's not forget that this started back ten years ago now with the failed Steam Machine concept.
Gabe needs to pay that fleet of Valkyries he has bought somehow.
Yep that same Gabe.
I get it, he's a billionaire and he's got yachts. Billionaires should not exist, I agree. That's a different discussion.
I'm not worshiping the dude, I'm just saying that it is unlikely that he would allow something like that. It is antithetical to Valve's ethos up to this point.
I usually think that gamers are by and large not critical enough when it comes to valve, but surely if they wanted to make a closed off ecosystem they wouldn't have based it on Linux and open sourced it
It is hilarious to me that Lemmy users, who seem to mostly be obsessed with Linux (borderline Arch users except slightly less annoying about it), talk like Windows is such a massively hated OS when it is literally still the most widely distributed and used OS in the world. Like yes, so many people globally hate Windows which is why everyone keeps using Windows and not switching to something they hate less. Of course.
I don't think it follows that a product having many users means it is not hated. Just look at health insurance in the US. I'm not saying everyone is secretly itching to ditch Windows and move to Linux as soon as possible but I do think the vast majority of people simply don't care and just use whatever the default option is provided that things work well enough. If it becomes just as easy to use Linux as Windows (including PC vendors offering Linux preinstalled and working with all appropriate drivers) I think we'd see more people switching because of the slightly cheaper cost alone.
i'm the only one in my friend group that uses linux, but everyone else has like one or two specific apps they need for work that keep them tied to windows, and if those apps were available on linux, they'd jump ship in a heartbeat.
i'm a fry cook, so my work doesn't care what OS i run.
Switching to Linux is literally free. It costs way more to get a license key for Windows than it does to just download Linux. People stick with what they know, and what they know is Windows is for PC, OSX is for Apple, and they may or may not even know anything about Linux at all. I would even go so far as to say most people would run Android for an OS instead of a traditional Linux distro.
Spending time on it, stops making it free. I've used Linux on off for more than 25 years now, but always switched back to Windows because in all those previous instances something weren't working well enough on Linux. I'm not blaming Linux for this and will at some point try again as I dislike what Windows does in the background.
But my time is not 'free'.
And practically I mostly find using Windows extremely easy. Being in IT specifically for my knowledge about Windows obviously helps there. I follow the notices they send out for my job, so know how to turn off or prevent many of the user annoyances quickly.
Switching costs. It's the same reason people keep using Facebook and X despite the fact both are widely hated.
If Linux was the dominant OS preinstalled on the majority of computers almost nobody would make the effort to install Windows.
There are a tremendous number of people out there who do dislike Windows, but have no idea what to do about it. They see their computer's operating system as an intrinsic part of it kind of how iOS is kind of immutably baked into an iPhone. They don't really have a grasp on what an operating system is or how to install one, and even if told they'd be paralyzed with fear over the risk of breaking something.
You described me pretty well.
And you're not alone, in fact I would guess you're part of the majority. But we tend to live in bubbles surrounded by tech savvy people so we forget about it sometimes. And the problem with not knowing something is possible is not realizing its limitations, someone who's eaten hot dogs every day of their life has no idea what a burguer is, is one intrinsically better than the other? Nope, but they're different, and different people might like different things.
In any case, just like the other comment, if you have any questions feel free to ask, there's a thriving community of people who use Linux and some of us were like you so we know where you're coming from.
Know what, I just might get a few questions together and ask them in one of the Linux subs.
I installed Ubuntu the other day on my laptop it took about 15 mins and it was even easier than trying to set up windows
You can try Linux from DVD or USB flash drive without installing. You will get a fully usable desktop with browser, media player and so on; and you will get a feel to whether things are working for you or not without altering anything on your PC.
I'm linking to Ubuntu's documentation on it, but many other Linux distributions support this feature https://ubuntu.com/tutorials/try-ubuntu-before-you-install
Well, if you would like to learn about and explore Linux as an alternative to Windows, I would be glad to answer any questions you have. I've been using Linux as my main or only operating system for all of my work and play for 12 years now.
Actually the most widely used OS worldwide is Android. Nearly ½ of all devices are Android while only ¼ of all devices are Windows.
Now if you want to adjust the scope and only look at "desktop" operating systems then yes, that is the majority. However over the past 10 years Windows has declined by ~15%, the majority going to macOS, but a small percentage going to Linux. Linux is generally on the rise, albeit slowly.
Also keep in mind the data I've referenced above applies to ALL devices. The landscape changes dramatically when you look at console vs "PC" gaming. Console gaming is roughly ~60% of the traditional gaming market. So while a Windows user may not become a Linux user, they may disappear and become a console user, decreasing the number of Windows users.
While I fully expect Windows to be around for a while, unless a change is made it will continue to lose market share. It would be a mistake to look at these numbers and think Windows is safe and beloved. By all metrics Windows is going away. It's not going to happen overnight, but 10 years from now?
The kind of people who came to Lemmy when Reddit enshittified are also the kind of people who went to Linux when Windows enshittified. Tech savvy enough to figure it out and zealous enough to stick with it, even if the FOSS solution objectively isn’t as great. (I’m that kind of people, it’s me.)
I mean... right now I'm using windows on my desktop computer because when I installed mint I encountered a bunch of problems (no Ethernet, no wifi, no HDMI out, crashes on steam games...)
I really wanted to use Linux, but the out of the box support just isn't always there. I'm not using windows because I like or prefer it.
That is unfortunate. I also installed Linux Mint last year, and although I've had weird little issues here and there, none of them were major, and overall I was able to use it exclusively for the last seven months. One issue I encountered when installing was actually because of Window's fault (during the drive partitioning portion), since I do dual-booting.
people can, and often do, use things that they hate.
This thread is fun too. Like valve is giving a wink and a nod when saying Windows is fine. Valve sells games. They don’t care if you play on steamOS, Windows, or a steam powered adding machine.
i think yes and no: they make their money from selling games, so they want more people to buy more games from them
… but, SteamOS achieves that in a multi-faceted way:
i think that last point in particular is critical: every $ valve spends on steamos is multiplied, because microsoft has to spend their own money to keep up, and it propels the whole ecosystem forward
Of course Windows is fine. Its the largest and most used gaming PC operating system. It couldn't ever reach that status if it was as bad as Lemmy users make it seem. Valve could care less what you play on as long as they can sell you games to play on it. Which is great, I think more game publishers/distributors should be this way.