Humanity loophole: you can pay people less if they're from prison.
So all we need to do is find a way to put people in prison!
Win-win!
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So all we need to do is find a way to put people in prison!
Win-win!
That's why homelessness is being criminalized.
The explicit goal is to recreate Victorian workhouses for the benefit of the new generation of robber barons.
Hey now, they won't be called Workhouses. They'll be called AI training data centers and Gig Opportunity Recruitment Points.
And if you don't support these amazing engines of economic development and industrial growth, you are clearly just throwing your support behind the concentration camps that the Bad Team wants to build.
Hell, I how do I even know you're not a Russian bot or a Chinese Wumao, trying to sow dissent in our glorious country, anyway?
I'm sure Elon will give the camps some dip shit meme name.
"Marginal Demographic, Mandatory Assistance" camps?
"Wage-Exempt Extradition & Deportation" camps?
"Temporary Unpaid Assistant Housing"?
Nah, he'll make it some dumbass acronym.
Like "MDMA", "WEED", or "TUAH"?
Yeah...
bachta tanks
Cyber-camps? Giga-gulags?
Hey, they're lucky not to be used as slaves!
Let's call for-profit prisons what they are - Plantations.
I always assume it's a European (or maybe Canadian) that makes posts like this. Last time I asked, I think they we're European - definitely not American.
But I really hope that Americans, at least, know that the right to enslave is enshrined in their constitution.
American here, been saying it's slavery for a while. Not all of us are clueless.
Oh, a bunch of us know, but because of gerrymandering and the ignorance of the larger populace, there's not a goddamn thing we can do about it.
While no legal system is perfect, I much prefer the way some countries prevent the public from hearing the actual names of criminals or someone’s criminal history. Not everyone needs to be branded for life with a scarlet letter. It would reduce recidivism as well.
Slavery is alive and well in the United States Of America.
(As a side note it's funny how, with a century of delay, the US pretty much followed the UK in making slavery "illegal" by just making chattel slavery illegal and, not long after, replacing it with indentured servitude. The non "funny" side is that Britain has already dropped indentured servitude but the US is busy actually expanding their variant of it with things like 3-strikes legislation)
The 13th Amendment to the US constitution makes slavery illegal except for prisoners.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_labor_in_the_United_States
Exactly my point.
The type of prisioners made to work like this in the US tend to be people who are in prison for crimes directly or indirectly related to poverty, not things like murder, making it it a lot like indentured servitude worked in Britain were people who couldn't pay their debts were used as slaves.
My wife was a journalist in SoCal a while back. She did a story on some women prisoners that were used to assist in firefighting.
They worked alongside Cal Fire. It was rough work, they were right there in the shit.
She can't recall if they were paid anything extra but she does remember that they ALL volunteered for it. They actually loved it.
It could lead to them getting job offers if/when they get released.
It does not.
They are banned (or they used to be, looks like there were some legal changes recently) from being firefighters after they're released, so...
Honestly if anything I think it would be easier than vetting someone with no background, you already have what they've been convicted of. Idk how many burglars or murderers like to dabble in arson.
If only there were more context and nuance available than "convict/not convict" when making such determinations and risk assessments about candidates...
I assume after being locked up long enough, people will agree to anything to go outside for a little while, and vary their routine.
In my job, I occasionally facilitate training for prisoner firefighters. Not only do they all love the job, they are also the best FD we train with. They read the material, study procedures, get it right when being observed. They get to stay at the firehouse instead of the prison itself, so both getting invited to do it and continuing to do it are huge for the inmates. They also love it. It burns my biscuit right up that they'll not be able to be a firefighter when they get out.
They allow them to become firefighters nowadays.
The law changed recently
Depends on the state I imagine. But I just looked mine up and it's "in the last 10 years" and not "ever" so that's good.
In the end we will all love our chains, the whip, and big brother.
Yeah but Lemmy said they are slaves.
Public work is one thing if we had a fair justice system (we don't)
Private work is absolutely indefensible.
Also keep in mind that they are getting charged by the day to be in prison and if ever released will owe a large bill. Usually this results in immediate bankruptcy which further increases chances of future incarceration. By design
Yo, what?? I need to do some research apparently, because I was under the impression that their stay was paid by for taxes. It can't be both, and if it is I may need to change careers.
Yeah I was very surprised when I heard this too. Absolutely despicable. https://www.npr.org/2022/03/04/1084452251/the-vast-majority-of-states-allow-people-to-be-charged-for-time-behind-bars
Ooof, that hurt to read.
A real -5* hotel experience
Ah yes, California's penal legion of
slaves"indentured servants" that we uh... voted to keep around in the last election.Man, CA politics are fucking bizarre. Sometimes the slam dunk no-brainer propositions fail and there never seems to be a really good reason why.
Money, and liberals.
California is liberal. Not left. Every once in a while some leftist proposition comes up that threatens money, and money always wins.
When they say liberals are wolves in sheep's clothing, this is kinda what they're talking about. They care, they really care about their fellow man, as far as their comfortable standard of living allows.
😌✊✊ Liberals 😫✊💦✊💦
Liberals huh? So where are the leftists in all this? Destitute in the streets?
Edit: oh yeah downvote me harder marx cucks 😫💦
Fighting the fires.
Oh, so only leftists fight fires huh?
For $6.80/hr before taxes.
Yeah for sure all of those prisoners are leftists. Yeah youre starting to sound about as smart as a leftist keep going
Oh, you're serious. I thought we were doing one of those fun bits.
Indentured servants would be college graduates and the loans they bear.
They're slaves, not incarcerated firefighters.
Important to add, once freed they will be ineligible to take a job as a firefighter in California.
Umm
The website for this program states the exact opposite
https://www.cdcr.ca.gov/facility-locator/conservation-camps/faq-conservation-fire-camp-program/
To my knowledge, this was only implemented recently and due to state budget cuts to firefighting services, fire departments in California are understaffed. Ex convicts can work as firefighters now, but it's unlikely they'll be able to do so. And as I said, this was only implemented recently so for many years they couldn't. And hiring culture takes time to change.
That's the first sensible advocacy point I've seen sense I started reading these threads. It really doesn't make sense to assign prisoners to jobs they're legally barred from.
From what I've heard this is actually an excellent job for many of them. It's good pay (for prison labor) doing valuable work with a lot of dignity. And it's work for their community that's valuable on the outside. It should always be truly voluntary else it be horrifying, but if they can't do it once they get out it's not job training and it's not reducing recidivism. These prisoners are doing heroic work, let them be heroic once freed.
All prison jobs should pay actual wages and be voluntary though. While the firefighting job is voluntary, many prison jobs are not. Including jobs making products for private companies.
They absolutely should not be allowed to work for private companies for less than a normal employee. That's infuriating. Those companies should be burned to the ground. Disgusting
That's not a bad idea. Like a student co-op to help get some job experience before leaving school. (and should be normal wages)
Fine by me - I've hired ex-cons to do work on my house and would hire them again. But there's a lot of vindictiveness about people's past deeds. An excellent computer programmer I worked with got fired when her background check turned up a prostitution arrest from when she had been a homeless 18-year-old. Then at age 32, after turning her life around, she found herself being abruptly escorted from the building by two security guards. The problem was that we worked in a school district headquarters - nowhere near away students, but rules are rules and bureaucrats gonna crat, right? I would have had her give talks in front of high school kids. But it isn't just misdirected authority - ordinary people social media will equally crucify somebody for Liking the wrong tweet. Maybe flinging shit is just a primate instinct, I dunno.
Grandmaster: Revolution? How did this happen?
Topaz: Don't know. But the Arena's mainframe for the Obedience Disks have been deactivated and the slaves have armed themselves.
Grandmaster: Ohhh! I don't like that word!
Topaz: Mainframe?
Grandmaster: No. Why would I not like "mainframe?" No, the "S" word!
Topaz: Sorry, the "prisoners with jobs" have armed themselves.
Grandmaster: Okay, that's better.
Definitely using this during my dnd session. The prison warden wardening prisoners with a job solely for their own benefit.
Thor Ragnarok is the only MCU movie I care to rewatch once in a while, along with Infinity War
I actually purchased Thor: Ragnarok so that I could watch it repeatedly. I love it so much. I'm pretty sure about 90% of that movie was ad-libbed by Taika just giving them a vague outline of what the scene is supposed to be about and then just setting the actors loose to improv to their heart's content.
Edit: Also, watching Galadriel (Cate Blanchett) absolutely kill it as the most exasperated evil queen is one of my favorite things in a movie ever.
Yo, its the private fire fighters the guy was asking on Twitter about.
"I will pay any amount"
1 dollar per hour and your soul is pretty cheap.
A large force of inexperienced indentured servants fighting the blaze, yet so much coverage about the horror of a handful of female hires.
A lot of them are experienced though. They’ve been using prison labor for wildfire fighting for years.
Maybe they should pay them the real wage the other firefighters get then? I'm cool with them working but not with them being taken advantage of. That lowers the salary of every fire fighter not just the prisoners. That means a real firefighter is out of a job if a slave can be forced to do it.
If they get wages then they'd be able to build a better life after being paroled and they wouldn't be getting sent back to prison on parole violations. So the system would lose its "human capital"......... it's sad. Never go to prison, especially not the first time.
¡Not if you commit arson!
I mean...if you've got a trained firefighter, someone who understands fire science...do they need to be the ones holding every hose? Why not just a bunch of muscle holding the hose (or digging the trenches) under the guidance of a pro?
No one is stopping that from happening they just don't want prison slaves used for it. Considering how much of our justice system is just made up bullshit that incentivizes bad people to keep prisons full so there's plenty of slaves to choose from instead of just making this a normal job that would require proper pay and benefits.
They mention how much money they're making but not that everything they have to spend it on comes from the institution imprisoning them and unconscionably price-gouged even by outside standards.
It could be worse: they could be insured by UHC :)
They'll probably need specialty pulmonology care later in life and a lot of public insurance plans either don't cover it, or the waiting lists for Medicaid patients are obscene. At least UHC would get you onto the shorter waiting list.
So no more "Delay, Deny, Defend"?
Oh, they'll absolutely still pull that shit, but there are a ton of medical practices that have a separate waiting list for Medicaid patients because they only accept a certain percentage of their patients being on Medicaid. UHC will still leave you with the bill, but having Medicaid can make it difficult to even see the specialist in the first place regardless of how much it will cost.
Slavery live and alive
Same with immigrants
Yup and Trump will do this to illegals.. Welcome to the concentration camps
Lol, he absolutely won't.
Da fuq? This is just plain wrong.
not legally. the constitution did not ban slavery completely. there is an explicit exception for prisoners.
I don't think that they meant legally wrong, but rather morally wrong.
I know; that's why I specified that this is legally allowed because it's fucked up and it needs to be said.
What is this...some kind of Suicide Squad?
The Inflammable Basterds.
I already thought this was bad when they were
askedmade to work fast food jobs.AskingMaking them to risk bodily harm is an entirely different idea. I think I want my first responders to feel fairly compensated when I call for help."Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction"
Oh I see, so Southern plantation owners just have to run individual prisons with open air detention centers for incarcerated individuals of color that happen to be lined with cotton plants and coincidentally they can sell that cotton for profit.
They did exactly that. Right up until the 1940's when FDR's Department of Justice went after them.
They're still doing it, like there are still prison plantations in Louisiana where they send black people for having half a joint on them.
The thing about peonage is they kept people forever. That was the big problem. Putting a definitive end date on a sentence made it magically better. I agree that forced labor is slavery, I'm just referencing the dying gasp of the actual plantation system. While we should eliminate prison slave labor, it's also nowhere near what the peonage system was.
Things being worse previously does not make what is now any better. Raise your standards.
That's not the point there.
You joke, but ... well, it is not a joke.
The 13th amendment
Any billionaire is free to step in and properly compensate these heroes, but they won’t
I don't think we have chain gang type prison programs in Canada. It's so archaic. Making license plates to have an occupation might be reasonable, but this chain gang shit is inhumane.
Wasn't this the thing as well where once they are released they cannot legally work as firefighters
No, I've spoken with CalFire guys about it. Apparently a bunch of departments actually will take note of prison crews they like working with and will hire out of that pool when their prison term is up. I think people who are ineligible to be firefighters due to their record are generally not permitted to be out on prison crews.
Also, many of them are ineligible to become actual firefighters after their release from prison due to their criminal record. I would be slightly more okay with this system if it translated into a guaranteed position as a firefighter following release if they agree to go to an area in need like in smaller communities that have trouble recruiting firefighters.
If someone lands on your property, you don't get paid if you are in prison. Though if the board is loaded up with hotels on orange and the other players aren't near your properties, you can stay in for a bit rolling doubles to avoid going broke.
Fire Country
Yes, that is a TV show.
The suicide squad 2025: No, you're not going to stop a criminal mastermind. You'll be risking your lives putting out the fires that we caused.
How 'well' a society is, is a function of whether going to prison is a choice or not (of the prisoner)?
I wonder if the Alethi pay their slaves better. What's the normal hourly rate for a firefighter?
I can confirm, Alethi slaves are better paid.
To play devil's advocate, and out of blind ignorancr, what's the alternative? Do nothing? Conscript the public?
Fund the bloody fire brigade
No no no no, that's too sensible
Did you see how much they had to increase the police budget? Sadly there simply is no way we can afford to pay firefighters.
Fluctuating demand makes the use of Volunteer firefighters more desirable
But reducing pollution and better environment management (controlled burns, removing dead brush, letting natural floods occur) will go further than any fire brigade
By the time they find volunteers it's probably too late but a proper fire brigade can get driving very soon after a call
Volunteer firefighters are gained ahead of time, they are just called upon as needed
Will their landlord volunteer the housing they hoard? Let this shit burn.
Not relevant to the conversation but the volunteers I’ve met have been good people so no
Who's going to wake the volunteers up and drag them to the fire truck?
Are you ignorant to the existence of volunteer firefighters?
They have a beeper and meet the fire engine at the call
Land value taxes to fund well-paid firefighters. Regulations on water usage, land use, and construction. Repeal Prop 13.
The country has plenty of able bodied and willing firefighters, just not enough willing to do it for poverty wages with a seasonal employment schedule. I used to work with a bunch of these crazy bastards in the off season when I was a line cook.
Have a corps of properly trained reservists, with laws requiring private companies and public institutions to make these firefighters available in case of critical emergency
Take all the subsidy tax dollars that go to big oil and spend them on firefighter salary.
Nah take it and put it in renewable energy to prevent fires in the first place. Stop imprisoning people for useless shit, wasting our money in that area. Invest more in education and reduce tuition costs and pay educators better.
You're out there, man. Far out; like fkn Pluto, man. You're gone!
No, pay the prisoners for fucks sake. Also, a lot of people would want that money but its extremely hard to get a job if youre, for example, homeless.
indentured servitude is "reasonable".
legal slavery is "reasonable"
you're on some good shit.
In some cases, slaves could earn money from their master if they performed tasks with particular skill. like putting out fires.
What are "perverse incentives"?
I was being rhetorical.
If you use prisoners for slave labor the state will make more things illegal with harsher prison sentences to increase the slave population. Involuntary servitude and slavery it prohibits, that's why they're giving drug offenders time in double digits.
Want to end the War on Drugs? End prison slavery and end the perverse incentives for making more prison slaves.
So you and people who get free room and board should get equal pay, or they're slaves, but you're not. Got it.
In most states it's not free. You have to pay room and board after you get out. Or they send you back, even if you served your full assigned time. The fees are legislated as part of your sentence and you're not clear of the system until you've paid it for imprisoning you.
My issue really isn't how fair it is or isn't, and you can always bring up the most unfavorable laws as if they're a universal standard. My issue is simply with calling prison labor "slavery", which not only is inaccurate but cheapens the experience of people who have endured actual slavery.
What are you thinking slavery actually was? American slavery ended up being the worst kind. But there were all kinds of other slaves throughout history. At the end of the day, forced labor is slavery. Even if it has an end date.
If by "at the end of the day" you mean "overdramatic words make my argument sound stronger."
Really living up to that name lovablesidekick
Thanks, I'm actually very cuddly!
How about everyone should be able to live somewhere without having to pay for it.
I totally agree with that and I believe the end of the scarcity economy is definitely on the horizon, but let's discuss current issues within the current real world if that's okay.
"Let's discuss current issues" while you try to pit prisoners against wage slaves?
Why didnt the leftists stop this measure?
California is not the Socialist state Fox News would have you believe it is.
Its what like 40% republican, %30 neoliberal(also republican)? Not a bastion for liberals or leftists
Other way around, 46 percent Democrat to 24 percent Republican. And no. We're not doing the whole, "all liberals are automatically actually neoliberal" thing. That's ridiculous.
If I was one of them, you bet I'd be doing everything in my power to get as many people to team up to run into the fire to avoid the indignity of modern slavery like that. Would rather burn to death.
You have clearly never burned to death then.
I have. I do not recommend it.
Well, I'm still alive, so I've obviously never burned to death.
Meh, jimmy down at the docks got burned to death twice last week, and Carol swears she was burned to life.
I ain't rushing to make no assumptions.
Just figured "talking like that? That's a person who ain't never burned to death before I can tell you that."
Na, I would be trying to the least amount of work possible.
Small easily contained/extinguished fire starts on a porch.
"I'm sorry ma'am we can't stop it. This is going to be a total loss."
Under most circumstances this seems like one of the less dystopian options*... because at least on the surface, this is a genuine everybody-problem and not something that drives profit.
Particularly if this actually gives them a career post-release, which seems to be the case in California for at least 4 years now. The alternative is dystopic again.
If this response is more pressured just because of where/who it effects, I could see that being an issue too. The context already dystopic though... like aside from the long-term heat and drought that will continue to be ignored, there was also the profit-over-safety of the PG&E hooks (from another article: PG&E knew old power line parts had ‘severe wear’ months before deadly Camp Fire).
*= Which is probably saying a lot, given that it involves an inferno. And yeah that pay is not great, but what they're being charged daily is likely even worse.
Federal Judge: Californians Who Fought Fires In Prison Can’t Become Career Firefighters
...
The system totally totally isn't designed to keep the poor down.
I was going off of this:
But you're right, I guess expungement is not a guarantee but it is something.
And I did say
It's only a guarantee if you've got lawyer friends or the money to hire a pro. But then how does that benefit unemployed felons?
The guy I quoted is the co-founder of a non-profit.
1:
2:
(from 2022)
Although my "not a guarantee" was with the context of a federal judge pushing back.
The article is from Feb 2021, though. Maybe something changed?
No
👍