I mean you have to buy it on your own accord, culture your own cells, and then successfully cook and eat them. As long as you aren't stealing other people's cells to eat them without their consent it seems more ethical than the current meat industry.
We have to draw some sort of line here though. Will this give you prions? Does this end the person's life like traditional cannibalism usually does? Theres a lot to unpack in these tiny man steaks. I'd still rather people be growing their own meat at home in a petri dish than having animals locked in cages for eternity.
So, if it were the original cells, then it would be autocannibalism, since these are cloned cells (from what I gather) it's technically not the same thing. [Edit: Personally, it's a bit of a tossup in my mind. I don't think it's unethical, but it's still a weird thing]
This is unironically one of my favourite questions to ask new friends. I've gotten a variety of answers, but my own response has always been yes, if the person was healthy and had clearly consented.
In my opinion, cannibalism is bad for two main reasons, 1) it can be unsafe if the person was ill, the meat has spoiled, or if it's done too often (this has been studied in cannibalistic rituals) and 2) it's unethical if the person doesn't consent to it.
Eating animal meat is non consensual and there can be diseases in there too - many people have died from it. Just because it's more socially acceptable, I don't really see it as an ethically better decision.
I would 100% at least try my own home grown meat cells.
Damn, I love your response, even though I don't know of I agree! Are you Vegan?
I personally see it as No, because I see us humans as special. Speaking as an atheist, end of day, we are special as humans.
I eat meat, I try to limit it to the ethically harvested. Hunted, family farm grown, it even tastes the best, any concerns aside. But eating a person is WRONG, consent or no.
It's interesting that you ask if they are vegan, as if understanding the ethical problems of eating meat would only be valid if you are also strictly vegan.
You evidently understand it is not completely ethically correct to eat animals in all circumstances, as you say you only eat ethically harvested meat. But you also say you believe humans to be special as a reason to eat animals, so why not eat all animals under all circumstances?
The main point though, why would it still be wrong to eat human meat if lab grown and consensual?
I'm not vegan or vegetarian anymore because I have a lot of allergies that prevent me from eating plant based anything. But I also try to limit it to locally and ethically harvested when I do eat meat.
I identify as agnostic and definitely don't believe that any one living being is better or more special than the others (except maybe cats).
I don't think you can generalize that. I'd love to have little me-steaks and I'd even share them with friends, especially if they can be a Möbius strip.
As long as the human chooses to grow their me-steaks themselves I see no issue.
I'd agree that taking the sample is unethical, but if you're growing the steak from a sample someone else got or fucking it the ethical lines get really blurry.
Idk, I don't think they're that blurry if we compare them to similar "conundrums" in other unethical circumstances.
Like, would you think the same of someone owning child porn? They don't distribute it, they don't film the children themselves, they just own the recordings. The law says they're a criminal, but it seems like a similar ethical conundrum - no? (To be clear, I think eating meat sourced from someone who did not consent is wrong. I hope that says enough about how I feel about CP.)
How about owning the schematics for a ghost gun? You haven't printed it, you haven't distributed the schematic - you just own the schematic (and, for the purpose of the example, a 3d printer capable of printing the parts needed).
Seems like the answer is "it's unethical". Gonna need a third party to weigh in.
So I think it's more like if u got a papermache piñata from some one that just so happened to be made of child porn and then u fucked that... Yeah seems unethical to me
Haha I've been saying for fucking years that boutique lab growing meat outlets will pop up selling exotic animal meats and celebrity human meat. We are getting close to that future
Palahnuik has written an auto cannibalism scene. In Haunted, girl passes out, other people decide to eat her (framing story is that it’s a reality tv show, but they all want it to go wrong and kill each other, it is extremely fucked up and is where “Guts” is from if you’ve ever been subjected to that). She wakes up to the smell of her own ass in the microwave.
What are the chances this doesn't result in a rise of (traditional) cannibalism? High profile cannibalism case where they tasted a sample of a celebrity and went for the real deal.
To me that's more ethical than killing of billions of animals, and the latter is considered ethical. I wouldn't do that because that would feel weird, but not unethical.
To me that's more ethical than killing of billions of animals, and the latter is considered ethical.
I think most people would actually consider factory farming unethical, they just put the blame on the producers for treating animals like shit. And the producers are locked into a race to the bottom for competitive prices, so they'd blame the customers/market conditions.
This is ethical despite it walking the line of taboo. It hurts no one, and if the tissue sample can be extracted at home without causing damage to the donor I see no issue with it.
Sure, but where's the upside? (ethically, not sure if consuming your own meat could have some sort of weird effect on you, even though afaik the usual cannibalism issues wouldn't apply). If anything it's more ethical to take it from yourself because you consent to it, the farm animal probably doesn't.
Unless you already have prions from CJD you can't catch Kuru by eating yourself. You have to actually eat someone who already has prions to catch it. Even then you have to eat nervous system tissue to be at a significant risk.
Yes and no. You get prions from eating a person that's also infected with prions. Basically if you eat cloned meat of yourself it should be fine as you either already have prions, or you don't already have prions. Prions manifest as either CJD if you got it naturally or Kuru if you got it through canibalism.
I think the brain is only where the concentration of prions is highest and therefore the most dangerous part of an infected person to eat, but you can also get it from other body parts. But I'm no expert... haven't eaten anyone in years actually.
Eating brain/spinal cord is not required to contract a prion disease; prions can also be spread through any biological medium where protein material is located, for instance, blood. This is the reason why those who have CJD or other TSEs in their family are unable to donate blood.
The reason for that actually makes sense. It's rarely clear how and when someone contracted a prion disease at time of diagnosis, and often it is unclear which specific prion disease a person has. While it may seem that a father contracted a prion disease after you were born, it could also be that the father has an inheritable prion disease that you too may have inherited.
It's unethical because you can't safely perform muscle biopsies at home, thus it is a violation of the duty of care, and culturing stratified squamous epithelium and calling it meat(and steak no less) is lying without any benefit to others, which is a fundamental ethical violation.
I think you would get the copy of a copy problem. DNA in cells degrade overtime. I think with lab grown meat this is much worse than normal human aging.
Fuck, I've always wanted to eat human meat anyway. I'd kill for a sample like this. I don't care about morals here. I'm a vegetarian. I just want to know. If my buddy was like "ayy we're eating Dan from accounting's arm tonight" I'd be there with no questions asked. The police can sort it out.
fetal bovine serum (FBS)... is derived from the blood of calf fetuses after their pregnant mothers are slaughtered by the meat or dairy industry.
I did not know this... and after reading the wiki, I found it rather disturbing...
The first stage of the production process for FBS is the harvesting of blood from the bovine fetus after the fetus is removed from the slaughtered cow. The fetus dies from the lack of oxygen by remaining in the protective environment of the uterus for a minimum of 15–20 minutes after the cow is dead...
The whole point of this art project is to suggest that using expired human blood serum is acceptable for growing lab meat btw. That's what they used to culture the cheek cells. Took them several months to grow that amount though and cheek cells have very different requirements to muscle cells, so I dunno why they were presenting it as an option. Guess that's why it was an art project and not a presentation at a conference.
I have read “The Immortal Life Of Henrietta Lacks” and absolutely find it appalling that her cells were taken without her consent, and she and her family was never properly compensated.
I’ve only worked with HeLa cells once, and they were super hardy and easy to grow. Even if you forget to check on them for a week, they’ll start growing on top of each other when the monolayer becomes fully confluent. Easy to transfect as well.
I don't think the people that came up with the word for cannibalism ever imagined it could come from a petri dish. I'd say it's undefined as or as not cannibalism
Then you have your starter meat and can start the age old tradition of passing it down from generation to generation so that they can keep making You Steaks forever.
Remember that guy on Reddit who claims he had to have his leg amputated and he somehow got to keep it, and he and his friends cooked and ate it?
That's weird, but as long as it remains their own, or consenting others, I think it's fine. The minute capitalism gets involved I think it becomes exploitative and unethical - long pork in the grocery store fundamentally should not be a thing.
God help me if I live in some commie zone where they take my amputated body parts to give to everyone. I grew those and they're mine! Fuck your science, I wanna eat my foot.
Which I would classify as pretty weird, but not really unethical. Besides, I think the comparison doesn't fully work - it's more like, growing a lump on your body somewhere, having it removed, and saying "hey, can I eat that?". Which I would also classify as weird, but not unethical.
auto cannibalism? %100 sure there will be tv shows about who has the best taste and the texture as well as onlyfans models selling cells from different parts of their body for astronomic prices
My hunch is that, as proposed, this is the most ethical form of meat consumption because the meat is being taken and consumed with consent from the donor. (Yourself) And there's no living creature that even suffers from the process
There's bacteria that grow in the roots of legumes that are capable of capturing gaseous nitrogen. That nitrogen makes its way to the soil, where the trees can suck it up to produce protein, like sunflower seeds. I eat those and by the time I urinate and die the nitrogen has been so concentrated within me that I burn a small hole in the ground for the fungus, sun, and time to decay and heal.
If I could photosynthesize the carbs needed to bootstrap this operation I would. If I could plant a piece of myself and feed it rainwater and atmospheric nitrogen to grow a steak I would. If I could leave behind shelter I wood.
the process still relies on fetal bovine serum (FBS) as a protein-rich growth supplement for animal cell cultures.
FBS, which costs around £300 to £700 per litre
That's a fancy serum made from cow blood
Also this all comes from a submission to an art museum in 2020, it's not supposed to be an actual product it's more of a proof of concept type of thing.
The kit likely is optimized for human muscle cells and might not perform as well with other human cells or muscle cells from another species or even not at all. The other question is where would you find livable cells from a cow or whatever that you wanted to cultivate. I doubt that your refrigerated steak has viable cells.
I don't think the requiernments for mammalian muscles cells are that different from each other. It might be optimized for a specific animal, but I'm pretty sure it will still work in general or it would only take very small adjustments to make it work for a different mammal.
The other question is where would you find livable cells from a cow or whatever that you wanted to cultivate
Yeah, you'd need a live or very recently deceased cow. But it should be easy enough to obtain some samples before or during regular slaughter. And once this method is viable and widespread enough there will probably "biopsy cows" that just get pricked for cell samples all day.
But it should be easy enough to obtain some samples before or during regular slaughter.
It's a DIY kit for layers to play around at home. I don't know where I would obtain samples before or during regular slaughter for my 49,99€ kit from Amazon tbh
But yeah, it's probalby more of a toy and I doubt that growning your own steak at home will catch on. You need industrial scale meat cultivation if you want to compete with the current convinence and price of meat.
Ok that makes sense. I live very urbanized and unfortunately without books and talks my kid would probably grow up thinking meat grows in plastic packaging, so a local farm or butcher is rather out of reach. I'm probably also approaching this more from a laboratory perspective than necessary.
I also hope lab grown meat catches on, but we need a) a really good cell line to not always have to take fresh cell samples from living animals and b) a sustainable and plant based alternative to FCS. I think scaling it up wouldn't even be such a huge problem eventually. What I am much more surprised by is that so many people have an ick with lab grown meat. How is this grosser than eating a dead animal or insects?
Can't speak for this specific kit but in general: A big problem with lab grown meat and cell tissue culture is that to grow cells in vitro you usually need fetal calf serum. That's a liquid from, well, cow abortions basically, that contains a plethora of different molecules like growth factors and mediators. As far as I know, there is no vegan alternative to this yet. We are talking about a liquid here whose composition is really complex, so it's a really big task to create a plant based FCS alternative that performs just as well.
Tldr: probably the set contains a liquid made from cows.
As vegan as it gets, I'd wager. You need to take an initial sample to cultivate the meat from, which obviously isn't vegan, but to my knowledge, the rest doesn't require any further samples
Yes it is, as no animal is harmed:
"Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals."
see guy posting right wing meme, check guy's profile, weird instance, comments supporting mike pillow and claiming Ukraine somehow started the war with Russia. heehoo
I am going to say that it’s unethical for someone to eat others or themselves, lab grown or not, because the community members in a society want to 1) curtail or reduce suffering and 2) increase ways to promote better judgment and impulse controls.
1 - We treat cattle and animals for food production with such contempt and disdain and cruelty, and if we were to start eating humans (lab grown, self-eating or otherwise) we’ll treat humans the same. Delegating some humans to be eaten, lab grown (by choice or not) or otherwise, is going to create a lot of societal strife and suffering. How does self-eating contribute to suffering? See reason 2.
2 - People who consume others or themselves cannot be guaranteed to be devoid of sociopathic characteristics. Even if someone is just eating themselves, it blurs the line between food source and community member.
I think it is the same as people who smoke or cut themselves to relieve stress—yes, whatever you’re doing is your choice and seemingly only affecting you. However, the second hand smoke/scarring in the case of the self-cannibal is their poor judgment and poor impulse control. We expect society members to exercise better judgment and impulse control because the way they think impacts everyone around them.
Why does self-cannibalism seem like poor judgment? Think again of someone who cuts themselves to relieve stress. The way you treat your yourself, including your body, is a reflection of your state of mind. Only a narcissist would say that they’re in complete control of their mind, including the subconscious part, and so their self-eating will be harmless and not result in any bad behavior towards others, ever. We already know vegetarians have more empathy than meat eaters: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/animal-emotions/201207/brain-scans-show-vegetarians-more-empathic-omnivores
As mentioned, we have historically always treated animal sources of nutrition with disdain, contempt and cruelty. If someone feels that it’s okay for them to eat themselves using lab grown meat, I worry what kind of psychological interplay justifies that decision for them. Do they hate themselves? Is this self-harm? What will their interactions with other people be like after doing this?
So, yes autonomy and self-actualization is an inherent right of cognitively advanced beings. But they lose that right the second it starts impacting someone else’s self-actualization.
In short, even self-cannibalism is unethical because society wants members who are not sociopaths and who won’t contribute to the suffering of other members.
How is this any way self-harm? To be clear we aren't talking about growing a whole person here as you seem to be confused. We are talking about a few cells in a petri dish or vat. This is all just psychobabble nonsense. You're the one here who shouldn't be in polite society.
How can you qualify that it’s not self harm? Maybe we need to do brain scan study of what it looks like for people who cut themselves vs those who eat meat grown from their cells.
Because it doesn't physically harm me to do so. Cutting yourself is physically painful and damaging to your body. Growing cells in a pitri dish to save on dinner is neither of those things.
So, if self-cannibalism of lab grown meat is allowed, then cannibalism of lab grown meat (so cells from other people) would also be allowed.
Think of how we treat other sources of animal derived foods, it’s pretty shitty and cruel treatment. In this case, the person chooses to eat self sourced or other person sourced lab grown meat because eating a real person would be murder, and cutting themselves up would be physical self harm.
The question is what is the underlying psychological justification for them deciding to eat lab grown human meat. Is it that they’re avoiding physical pain and murder? Lab grown animal meat is there to substitute for animal meat. But what’s the justification for lab grown human meat? Novelty? Taste? Psychological issues? How do we trust this persons judgement for themselves and others?
The issue is that human societies veered away from cannibalism for social issues, and so how do we trust those people who would engage in some form of cannibalism, even if it’s their own lab grown cells.
I fail to see how we treat meat animals as relevant. No ones going to be caged and mistreated because there's no reason to.
The fact you're eating human meat isn't enough to cause psychological issues when no one was harmed, and the idea that it does is fucking laughable.
Unless someone is actually mistreated, which again no practical reason to, as getting a microscopic sample to grow from is harmless. Where would this psychological damage come from? Because it would remind us of the animals we did kill and eat? That's fucking goofy. The psychological harm of cannibalism IS FROM THE PHYSICAL HARM BEING DONE TO THE OTHER PERSON. NOTHING ELSE. THATS IT.
Eating something that harmlessly grew from my body isn't going to impose psychological damage, nor does it imply I lack empathy for myself or those around me.
There's ethically no difference between eating your own lab grown meat, and eating your own boogers. There's ethically no difference between someone eating your own lab grown meat, and someone eating your boogers.
It doesn't automatically put me in the same class as livestock. I'm not undermining my humanity, nor does it mean I don't care for myself. Your hang ups are your own. Get the fuck over yourself.
This almost reminds me of the weird psychosexual hangups incels have but for vegans. Imposing meaning where there is none, Jesus fucking Christ dude.
People will eat meat if they want to, you can't stop them and at the end of the day brigading annoys people and disrupts social media
It's the exact same thing you and your group did on reddit
Just stop brigading posts and stop mass downvoting any posts that contain meat, I've looked at the vote ratios of posts in food subs enough to know that it is being done
It's just frustrating. Despite study after study showing that consumption of meat leads to poor health, people keep doing it. It just reminds me of being an addict. Other people saying this causes less harm to other sentient beings are right I'll conceded to that but based off everything I know, the consumption of meat isn't an act of self love. I may just be sensitive because my mother is dying of stomach disease. Beans and rice vegan steps off soap box
We're humans, we can do anything we put our minds to. I'm not a geneticist nor nutritionist so there's no way I could tell you for certain. But the more I think of this question the more Jeff Goldblum's line from Jurassic Park comes to mind.
“Your scientists were so preoccupied with whether they could, they didn't stop to think if they should."
Yeah and cocaine is fun to do too. Doesn't mean it's healthy.
It wouldn't end animal agriculture. It would just become the vinyl record collectors version of meat consumption.
It saddens me that you believe the only reason for cows existence is because of humans.
If I may suggest donating some time at your local animal sanctuary to meet a cow. Much like dogs or cats they each have very different personalities. They can be very cuddly if they get to know you. Like most herbivores they just want to have good vibes and enjoy their life.
Sorry that was a bit hyperbole it would never be an all or nothing. You'd always have limited grass fed animal husbandry for milk and cheese. But my thought was that there should be some sort of rewilding effort for cows or Buffaloes or whatever their wild form even is or was in Europe.
And I was thinking in the way of harm reduction which is a tactic for drug. You won't convince a majority of people to not want meant so the demand will be there. So practically artificial meat is the only way.
I mean you have to buy it on your own accord, culture your own cells, and then successfully cook and eat them. As long as you aren't stealing other people's cells to eat them without their consent it seems more ethical than the current meat industry.
This will become a sex thing for sure
I made a post about that a while ago: https://feddit.uk/post/14228639
Well if they combine that with 3D printed cell scaffolds they can eventually make a flesh fleshlight out of their own cells
The time is coming for the most involved "go fuck yourself" ever.
Streets ahead
There's a (pretty great) movie where cannibalism is treated as a substitute for sex. It's called Aamis.
3D printed cell scaffolds combined with this mean you can shape them
Now I wonder if someone has actually tried making a dildo from cultured flesh and skin
But it's still cannibalism, yeah? If someone consented to be eaten before they died or even wished for it, would you be OK with eating them?
We have to draw some sort of line here though. Will this give you prions? Does this end the person's life like traditional cannibalism usually does? Theres a lot to unpack in these tiny man steaks. I'd still rather people be growing their own meat at home in a petri dish than having animals locked in cages for eternity.
In the current hypothetical:
It's screened, you can't legally sell prion meat
It's taken nonlethally as a sample from a consenting human, possibly you
Ethical
are they yummy ?
Haven't tried it, you'll have to make your own judgement there!
So, if it were the original cells, then it would be autocannibalism, since these are cloned cells (from what I gather) it's technically not the same thing. [Edit: Personally, it's a bit of a tossup in my mind. I don't think it's unethical, but it's still a weird thing]
Yeah, I'm also unsure how I feel about it, I asked because it's such a strange thing to think about
Well your body technically canabalises itself if you starve to death
This is unironically one of my favourite questions to ask new friends. I've gotten a variety of answers, but my own response has always been yes, if the person was healthy and had clearly consented.
In my opinion, cannibalism is bad for two main reasons, 1) it can be unsafe if the person was ill, the meat has spoiled, or if it's done too often (this has been studied in cannibalistic rituals) and 2) it's unethical if the person doesn't consent to it.
Eating animal meat is non consensual and there can be diseases in there too - many people have died from it. Just because it's more socially acceptable, I don't really see it as an ethically better decision.
I would 100% at least try my own home grown meat cells.
Damn, I love your response, even though I don't know of I agree! Are you Vegan?
I personally see it as No, because I see us humans as special. Speaking as an atheist, end of day, we are special as humans.
I eat meat, I try to limit it to the ethically harvested. Hunted, family farm grown, it even tastes the best, any concerns aside. But eating a person is WRONG, consent or no.
Why is it wrong though? And why/how are people special? You didn't provide any reasoning to either.
It's interesting that you ask if they are vegan, as if understanding the ethical problems of eating meat would only be valid if you are also strictly vegan.
You evidently understand it is not completely ethically correct to eat animals in all circumstances, as you say you only eat ethically harvested meat. But you also say you believe humans to be special as a reason to eat animals, so why not eat all animals under all circumstances?
The main point though, why would it still be wrong to eat human meat if lab grown and consensual?
I'm not vegan or vegetarian anymore because I have a lot of allergies that prevent me from eating plant based anything. But I also try to limit it to locally and ethically harvested when I do eat meat.
I identify as agnostic and definitely don't believe that any one living being is better or more special than the others (except maybe cats).
If you're eating yourself I think it's autophagy
As long as it’s not coerced, yes (not the brain).
Even if you did, while super weird as long as you didn't get the cells through violence it's probably still more ethical than the meat industry.
You can probably use some violence and still come out ahead. I don't know how to do that math though.
And what if you don't own a Honda?
If we cultured cells from someone with an autocannibalism fetish, would it then be OK?
Like I take 1d4 psychic damage whenever I see furries at cons, but I don't think they should have to be banned
I don't think you can generalize that. I'd love to have little me-steaks and I'd even share them with friends, especially if they can be a Möbius strip.
As long as the human chooses to grow their me-steaks themselves I see no issue.
Just don't get psychic damage, skill issue ngl
Incoming: nonconsensual meat grown from samples illicitly taken against someone's will.
Imagine the network of Taylor Swift DNA trading.
And you know someone is going to fuck it.
What are the ethics of fucking a steak made from a non-consenting Taylor Swift's tissue sample?
Unethical??
I'd agree that taking the sample is unethical, but if you're growing the steak from a sample someone else got or fucking it the ethical lines get really blurry.
Idk, I don't think they're that blurry if we compare them to similar "conundrums" in other unethical circumstances.
Like, would you think the same of someone owning child porn? They don't distribute it, they don't film the children themselves, they just own the recordings. The law says they're a criminal, but it seems like a similar ethical conundrum - no? (To be clear, I think eating meat sourced from someone who did not consent is wrong. I hope that says enough about how I feel about CP.)
How about owning the schematics for a ghost gun? You haven't printed it, you haven't distributed the schematic - you just own the schematic (and, for the purpose of the example, a 3d printer capable of printing the parts needed).
Seems like the answer is "it's unethical". Gonna need a third party to weigh in.
The closest thing to this exact situation would be the HeLa immortal cell line and that situation is fuzzy as fuck.
TIL, thanks!
So I think it's more like if u got a papermache piñata from some one that just so happened to be made of child porn and then u fucked that... Yeah seems unethical to me
You aren't seeing the big picture here....hear me out:
TRUMP STEAKS, but the real deal this time!!!!
But how else will we know which neighbor tastes the best?
Meat is already produced without consent and much more violently then taking samples.
Wasn't there a short story about this?
I remember a magic school bus episode about kid flavored ice cream
Of course it's ethical, unless I'm seriously misunderstanding something you literally have to make the decision to buy it and then partake in it.
I guess you can use it unethically but by default intended usage it's fine
Haha I've been saying for fucking years that boutique lab growing meat outlets will pop up selling exotic animal meats and celebrity human meat. We are getting close to that future
Its not the 'eat the rich' that I was hoping for.... Might be the one we deserve.
Eat the rich (onlyfans celebrities).
Oh God, the amount of people lining up to buy an OF persons meat...
😬
They can include the bath water for half price so you can make soup!
“I’ll take a burger, mediums rare, & let’s do a 50/50 blend of Ground Chuck & Beyoncé on Sourdough.”
Palahniuk or Norris?
Republican meat is ewwh
Palahniuk it is then
Palahnuik has written an auto cannibalism scene. In Haunted, girl passes out, other people decide to eat her (framing story is that it’s a reality tv show, but they all want it to go wrong and kill each other, it is extremely fucked up and is where “Guts” is from if you’ve ever been subjected to that). She wakes up to the smell of her own ass in the microwave.
The former seems more appropriate.
Woolery. Dry aged, of course.
Wretched vore future unlocked.
What are the chances this doesn't result in a rise of (traditional) cannibalism? High profile cannibalism case where they tasted a sample of a celebrity and went for the real deal.
That wasn't on my bingo card...
To me that's more ethical than killing of billions of animals, and the latter is considered ethical. I wouldn't do that because that would feel weird, but not unethical.
I mean, it's basically homemade spam. It's kinda weird.
I think most people would actually consider factory farming unethical, they just put the blame on the producers for treating animals like shit. And the producers are locked into a race to the bottom for competitive prices, so they'd blame the customers/market conditions.
I bet I taste delicious!
This is ethical despite it walking the line of taboo. It hurts no one, and if the tissue sample can be extracted at home without causing damage to the donor I see no issue with it.
It's unethical because it's gross and I personally don't like it.
This guy understands the root of ethics
I mean it worked for gay sex!
Anyone who doesn't like gay sex hasn't tried it.
Meh, not everyone is good at sex no matter the proclivity
It's ethical relativism y'all!
Why not take the cells of farm animals and create steaks, etc?
Sure, but where's the upside? (ethically, not sure if consuming your own meat could have some sort of weird effect on you, even though afaik the usual cannibalism issues wouldn't apply). If anything it's more ethical to take it from yourself because you consent to it, the farm animal probably doesn't.
I would be worried about disease first, but if it's your own cells maybe there's less chance? Prions are terrifying
My second question would be taste
If there's no disease and it tastes good then fuck yeah all in
Those cannibals who got prions ate human brain.
Theoretically, if you don't consume any of spine or nervous system, you should be good.
I can't grow me a spine steak?
What even is the point then
Unless you already have prions from CJD you can't catch Kuru by eating yourself. You have to actually eat someone who already has prions to catch it. Even then you have to eat nervous system tissue to be at a significant risk.
What if I want to grow my steak into a hollow-cylinder shape, and also, not eat it, per-se?
I would try this in a fucking heartbeat
Fuck yeah, I might lose weight!
Ethically sourced human? Same. Sign me the fuck up. Not for a subscription or anything, but I really want to try it.
Don't you get prions from canibalism
Also if this costs less than supermarket meat I could buy some beef and clone it
Yes and no. You get prions from eating a person that's also infected with prions. Basically if you eat cloned meat of yourself it should be fine as you either already have prions, or you don't already have prions. Prions manifest as either CJD if you got it naturally or Kuru if you got it through canibalism.
Is muscle tissue even infectious? (Especially when grown from a few cells) Don't you need to eat some brain or spinal cord?
I think the brain is only where the concentration of prions is highest and therefore the most dangerous part of an infected person to eat, but you can also get it from other body parts. But I'm no expert... haven't eaten anyone in years actually.
Yes, it can pass through muscle/meat. That's what was getting people with CJD and possibly this zombie deer stuff.
Eating brain/spinal cord is not required to contract a prion disease; prions can also be spread through any biological medium where protein material is located, for instance, blood. This is the reason why those who have CJD or other TSEs in their family are unable to donate blood.
This is also how vampires became extinct.
The blood relative thing is kind of silly, it should be mothers only but it also bans you if your father contracted it after you were born.
The reason for that actually makes sense. It's rarely clear how and when someone contracted a prion disease at time of diagnosis, and often it is unclear which specific prion disease a person has. While it may seem that a father contracted a prion disease after you were born, it could also be that the father has an inheritable prion disease that you too may have inherited.
Yes, I think I was wrong with my assumption.
It's unethical because you can't safely perform muscle biopsies at home, thus it is a violation of the duty of care, and culturing stratified squamous epithelium and calling it meat(and steak no less) is lying without any benefit to others, which is a fundamental ethical violation.
But couldn't you just grow one steak and then take cells from it to grow more?
I think you would get the copy of a copy problem. DNA in cells degrade overtime. I think with lab grown meat this is much worse than normal human aging.
Good point, I don't know much about this sort of thing.
Cells were collected from a cheeck swab. And it's not a real product, it's an art project.
Yeah I know. Cheek cells are stratified squamous epithelium.
Fuck, I've always wanted to eat human meat anyway. I'd kill for a sample like this. I don't care about morals here. I'm a vegetarian. I just want to know. If my buddy was like "ayy we're eating Dan from accounting's arm tonight" I'd be there with no questions asked. The police can sort it out.
I mean, if you'd kill for that you don't need the kit.
oh boy do I have something to tell you
I don't want to eat human meat, but I don't mind if you kill that asshole from accounting.
Fun fact : Human meat is an excellent source of protein 🤓
Thats what im thinking- i rarely eat meat but how could i pass up ethical long pig? Im too curious
You can eat placenta, if you really want to eat human.
Madventures in New Guinea - Mad Cook meets the placenta
I did not know this... and after reading the wiki, I found it rather disturbing...
The whole point of this art project is to suggest that using expired human blood serum is acceptable for growing lab meat btw. That's what they used to culture the cheek cells. Took them several months to grow that amount though and cheek cells have very different requirements to muscle cells, so I dunno why they were presenting it as an option. Guess that's why it was an art project and not a presentation at a conference.
That sounds like some Dark Souls/Evangelion shit. “Harvest the blood of the fetus after pulling it from its dead mother”
Me in the lab needing to use FBS for routine cell culture media…
So what do you think when you work with HeLas?
I have read “The Immortal Life Of Henrietta Lacks” and absolutely find it appalling that her cells were taken without her consent, and she and her family was never properly compensated.
I’ve only worked with HeLa cells once, and they were super hardy and easy to grow. Even if you forget to check on them for a week, they’ll start growing on top of each other when the monolayer becomes fully confluent. Easy to transfect as well.
Man-made man-steaks beyond my comprehension
By what technicality this isn't cannibalism?
I would call it auto-cannibalism. I think it is a form of cannibalism.
Well it's not actually available yet (and perhaps won't ever be), so it's more cantibalism.
I don't think the people that came up with the word for cannibalism ever imagined it could come from a petri dish. I'd say it's undefined as or as not cannibalism
Yes. You consented. It's just more you.
I already have enough of me to go around.
Sounds like you don't need to eat for a while then.
Non-issue or skill issue. Pick your poison.
I'll pick not being a dick to strangers online, thanks.
The perfect gift for RimWorld players.
Hush, its so imperfect, it only makes meat, not Cowboy Hats made out of Cowboys
"Eat my ass!"
"Don't mind if I do."
It's not a toomah!
Then you have your starter meat and can start the age old tradition of passing it down from generation to generation so that they can keep making You Steaks forever.
"My great-great grandpa/ma sure is delicious!"
How do you know the cancer won't make it tastier?
I mean burnt shit from flame grilling tastes mysteriously excellent
soylent me?
is it made of meeple?
Remember that guy on Reddit who claims he had to have his leg amputated and he somehow got to keep it, and he and his friends cooked and ate it?
That's weird, but as long as it remains their own, or consenting others, I think it's fine. The minute capitalism gets involved I think it becomes exploitative and unethical - long pork in the grocery store fundamentally should not be a thing.
God help me if I live in some commie zone where they take my amputated body parts to give to everyone. I grew those and they're mine! Fuck your science, I wanna eat my foot.
Who gave a Resident Evil villager access to Lemmy 💀
I don't see why not. It hurts nobody, except maybe yourself. Not sure what the nutrition is on this thing.
Isn’t cannibalism a good way to get prion based diseases? Or is that only if you eat other people
If you're eating yourself, no. If you have a disease to pass on, you can't catch the disease, because you already have it.
You mean to say you can't get STDs if you fuck yourself?
Yeah, same principle.
Technically you can if your future self becomes a time traveller
You can't eat the brain. AFIK, never tried human.
Shouldn’t
Anyone who thinks this is okay can suck my lab grown dick
If you don't eat your meat, how can you have any pudding?
Careful. Might create a fetish here.
You don't wanna eat your own lab grown asshole?
Completely ethical why would it not be?
That' like losing a finger and go: yeah, i'll eat that.
Which I would classify as pretty weird, but not really unethical. Besides, I think the comparison doesn't fully work - it's more like, growing a lump on your body somewhere, having it removed, and saying "hey, can I eat that?". Which I would also classify as weird, but not unethical.
A little gross too, but not unethical. Like eating boogers.
This is fine. I probably taste good.
auto cannibalism? %100 sure there will be tv shows about who has the best taste and the texture as well as onlyfans models selling cells from different parts of their body for astronomic prices
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Food_of_the_Gods_(short_story)
My hunch is that, as proposed, this is the most ethical form of meat consumption because the meat is being taken and consumed with consent from the donor. (Yourself) And there's no living creature that even suffers from the process
"No living creature suffers"? You're wrong! Cells live, and they'll suffer death by consumption!
/j :P
Clearly you haven't been to Milliways, The Restaurant at the End of the Universe.
I was once but that was a long while ago. I don't remember much of that book lol
"Hey hon, get in here. I want you to try this"
Damn I just realized that guys will of course try to make dick meat
There's bacteria that grow in the roots of legumes that are capable of capturing gaseous nitrogen. That nitrogen makes its way to the soil, where the trees can suck it up to produce protein, like sunflower seeds. I eat those and by the time I urinate and die the nitrogen has been so concentrated within me that I burn a small hole in the ground for the fungus, sun, and time to decay and heal.
If I could photosynthesize the carbs needed to bootstrap this operation I would. If I could plant a piece of myself and feed it rainwater and atmospheric nitrogen to grow a steak I would. If I could leave behind shelter I wood.
Was this all an elaborate ruse to employ a shitty pun?!!
I wooden put it past them
urinate and die
So what do we feed the cells to allow them to grow?
That's a fancy serum made from cow blood
Also this all comes from a submission to an art museum in 2020, it's not supposed to be an actual product it's more of a proof of concept type of thing.
Right, I assumed we weren't about to see this on shelves or anything like that any time soon. But man that could do a lot for animal ethics
I'm putting ten in the bathtub and naming it Steve.
It's not like they can check what kinds of cells you put in. No need to made this weird by cultivating human meat.
The kit likely is optimized for human muscle cells and might not perform as well with other human cells or muscle cells from another species or even not at all. The other question is where would you find livable cells from a cow or whatever that you wanted to cultivate. I doubt that your refrigerated steak has viable cells.
I don't think the requiernments for mammalian muscles cells are that different from each other. It might be optimized for a specific animal, but I'm pretty sure it will still work in general or it would only take very small adjustments to make it work for a different mammal.
Yeah, you'd need a live or very recently deceased cow. But it should be easy enough to obtain some samples before or during regular slaughter. And once this method is viable and widespread enough there will probably "biopsy cows" that just get pricked for cell samples all day.
It's a DIY kit for layers to play around at home. I don't know where I would obtain samples before or during regular slaughter for my 49,99€ kit from Amazon tbh
Ask a local farm or butchers shop for example.
But yeah, it's probalby more of a toy and I doubt that growning your own steak at home will catch on. You need industrial scale meat cultivation if you want to compete with the current convinence and price of meat.
Ok that makes sense. I live very urbanized and unfortunately without books and talks my kid would probably grow up thinking meat grows in plastic packaging, so a local farm or butcher is rather out of reach. I'm probably also approaching this more from a laboratory perspective than necessary.
I also hope lab grown meat catches on, but we need a) a really good cell line to not always have to take fresh cell samples from living animals and b) a sustainable and plant based alternative to FCS. I think scaling it up wouldn't even be such a huge problem eventually. What I am much more surprised by is that so many people have an ick with lab grown meat. How is this grosser than eating a dead animal or insects?
Is this technically cannibalism?
This is by definition cannibalism
Full self cannibalism. Like consuming ones own various fluids
No, ethically more like chopping off a leg for dinner than eating boogers.
*growing a leg from boogers
It's worse, so much worse even though it shouldn't be
That could be useful at night during hayfever season
And eating people is useful during nofoodbigstarve season, but is it right though?
I mean you could also culture booger cells
Could make booger candy
Art project from 2020 - intended to provoke the conversations here for sure. Still involves some animal products in production it looks like.
I don’t think this could be feasibly upscaled to sustain a dystopia.
Looks cool. Will take a chance to try and grow my own steak, but i probably wont eat it.
Wait. Isnt this infinite food? Cut off 1cm2 of skin, grow a steak, and 'free' dinner? Lets actually read thw article.
You would have to "feed" it nutrition while it grows into the steak, so not infinite and not free unfortunately
hummm delicious cancer meet
Shades of Wendy meat from Rudy Rucker's "Ware" tetralogy
Is this considered vegan meat?
Can't speak for this specific kit but in general: A big problem with lab grown meat and cell tissue culture is that to grow cells in vitro you usually need fetal calf serum. That's a liquid from, well, cow abortions basically, that contains a plethora of different molecules like growth factors and mediators. As far as I know, there is no vegan alternative to this yet. We are talking about a liquid here whose composition is really complex, so it's a really big task to create a plant based FCS alternative that performs just as well.
Tldr: probably the set contains a liquid made from cows.
As vegan as it gets, I'd wager. You need to take an initial sample to cultivate the meat from, which obviously isn't vegan, but to my knowledge, the rest doesn't require any further samples
Likely depends on what's needed/used as feed
Yes it is, as no animal is harmed:
"Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals."
This one is considered vegan because it used expired human blood cells, but calling a cheek culture meat is beyond the pale.
What about this post has anything to do with vеgаnism BudgetBandit
Hate to break it to you, you’ve been drinking water made from something’s shit for as long as you’ve been alive.
it would both lose you weight and disprove perpetual energy people. plus, the more you eat the more you lose!
I'm kinda selling myself on it.
see guy posting right wing meme, check guy's profile, weird instance, comments supporting mike pillow and claiming Ukraine somehow started the war with Russia. heehoo
I've always wanted Antiviral to be real!
I mean... its definitely ethical, its just also freak behaviour 😅
This is kinda cool, but maybe make it plant-based instead?
We aren't made of plants, how could this be a man made horror if we ate nerd ass veggies at the end of this???
Maybe stop brigading posts about meat and keep to your self instead?
I have never done that. Maybe stop assuming things about strangers and keep to yourself instead?
I am going to say that it’s unethical for someone to eat others or themselves, lab grown or not, because the community members in a society want to 1) curtail or reduce suffering and 2) increase ways to promote better judgment and impulse controls.
1 - We treat cattle and animals for food production with such contempt and disdain and cruelty, and if we were to start eating humans (lab grown, self-eating or otherwise) we’ll treat humans the same. Delegating some humans to be eaten, lab grown (by choice or not) or otherwise, is going to create a lot of societal strife and suffering. How does self-eating contribute to suffering? See reason 2.
2 - People who consume others or themselves cannot be guaranteed to be devoid of sociopathic characteristics. Even if someone is just eating themselves, it blurs the line between food source and community member.
I think it is the same as people who smoke or cut themselves to relieve stress—yes, whatever you’re doing is your choice and seemingly only affecting you. However, the second hand smoke/scarring in the case of the self-cannibal is their poor judgment and poor impulse control. We expect society members to exercise better judgment and impulse control because the way they think impacts everyone around them.
Why does self-cannibalism seem like poor judgment? Think again of someone who cuts themselves to relieve stress. The way you treat your yourself, including your body, is a reflection of your state of mind. Only a narcissist would say that they’re in complete control of their mind, including the subconscious part, and so their self-eating will be harmless and not result in any bad behavior towards others, ever. We already know vegetarians have more empathy than meat eaters: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/animal-emotions/201207/brain-scans-show-vegetarians-more-empathic-omnivores
As mentioned, we have historically always treated animal sources of nutrition with disdain, contempt and cruelty. If someone feels that it’s okay for them to eat themselves using lab grown meat, I worry what kind of psychological interplay justifies that decision for them. Do they hate themselves? Is this self-harm? What will their interactions with other people be like after doing this?
So, yes autonomy and self-actualization is an inherent right of cognitively advanced beings. But they lose that right the second it starts impacting someone else’s self-actualization.
In short, even self-cannibalism is unethical because society wants members who are not sociopaths and who won’t contribute to the suffering of other members.
How is this any way self-harm? To be clear we aren't talking about growing a whole person here as you seem to be confused. We are talking about a few cells in a petri dish or vat. This is all just psychobabble nonsense. You're the one here who shouldn't be in polite society.
How can you qualify that it’s not self harm? Maybe we need to do brain scan study of what it looks like for people who cut themselves vs those who eat meat grown from their cells.
Because it doesn't physically harm me to do so. Cutting yourself is physically painful and damaging to your body. Growing cells in a pitri dish to save on dinner is neither of those things.
Self harm isn’t just physical though, https://www.healthline.com/health/emotional-self-harm
Okay now you've really lost me? How in the hell is that emotional self harm? If anything I'd take it as a self-compliment that I taste good :p
So, if self-cannibalism of lab grown meat is allowed, then cannibalism of lab grown meat (so cells from other people) would also be allowed.
Think of how we treat other sources of animal derived foods, it’s pretty shitty and cruel treatment. In this case, the person chooses to eat self sourced or other person sourced lab grown meat because eating a real person would be murder, and cutting themselves up would be physical self harm.
The question is what is the underlying psychological justification for them deciding to eat lab grown human meat. Is it that they’re avoiding physical pain and murder? Lab grown animal meat is there to substitute for animal meat. But what’s the justification for lab grown human meat? Novelty? Taste? Psychological issues? How do we trust this persons judgement for themselves and others?
The issue is that human societies veered away from cannibalism for social issues, and so how do we trust those people who would engage in some form of cannibalism, even if it’s their own lab grown cells.
Some context which also gives European views on first encounters and how the social revulsion to this idea was established https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/making-of-an-imperial-polity/cannibalism-and-the-politics-of-bloodshed/D4D05AE81BBADD074FBCDC09504605D3
I fail to see how we treat meat animals as relevant. No ones going to be caged and mistreated because there's no reason to.
The fact you're eating human meat isn't enough to cause psychological issues when no one was harmed, and the idea that it does is fucking laughable.
Unless someone is actually mistreated, which again no practical reason to, as getting a microscopic sample to grow from is harmless. Where would this psychological damage come from? Because it would remind us of the animals we did kill and eat? That's fucking goofy. The psychological harm of cannibalism IS FROM THE PHYSICAL HARM BEING DONE TO THE OTHER PERSON. NOTHING ELSE. THATS IT.
Eating something that harmlessly grew from my body isn't going to impose psychological damage, nor does it imply I lack empathy for myself or those around me.
There's ethically no difference between eating your own lab grown meat, and eating your own boogers. There's ethically no difference between someone eating your own lab grown meat, and someone eating your boogers.
It doesn't automatically put me in the same class as livestock. I'm not undermining my humanity, nor does it mean I don't care for myself. Your hang ups are your own. Get the fuck over yourself.
This almost reminds me of the weird psychosexual hangups incels have but for vegans. Imposing meaning where there is none, Jesus fucking Christ dude.
Ladies and gentlemen, it appears we have a winner of the most braindead take award!
Stop brigading posts nifty
People will eat meat if they want to, you can't stop them and at the end of the day brigading annoys people and disrupts social media
It's the exact same thing you and your group did on reddit
Just stop brigading posts and stop mass downvoting any posts that contain meat, I've looked at the vote ratios of posts in food subs enough to know that it is being done
What the fuck are you on about? I am only on lemmy, and don’t use any other boards.
You’re the one lying about me and brigading.
Maybe you’re a stooge sent by big-Cannibalism to help make this tech popular? See, I can make baseless claims too 🙄
This is exactly what I tell people who want to drink their own cum. Like, how can society trust you, man.
Carnists well do anything to eat meat
Oh no, meat grown in a way that doesn't harm sentient beings! How awful!
Oh come on veggist, I eat you and you eat me, in a consensual lab grown way.
And I am just kidding, not even sure I am on board with this, i think eating lab grown cow meat would be less upsetting.
It's just frustrating. Despite study after study showing that consumption of meat leads to poor health, people keep doing it. It just reminds me of being an addict. Other people saying this causes less harm to other sentient beings are right I'll conceded to that but based off everything I know, the consumption of meat isn't an act of self love. I may just be sensitive because my mother is dying of stomach disease. Beans and rice vegan steps off soap box
Could we genetically engineer a synthetic meat cell line that is healthy enough to eat?
We're humans, we can do anything we put our minds to. I'm not a geneticist nor nutritionist so there's no way I could tell you for certain. But the more I think of this question the more Jeff Goldblum's line from Jurassic Park comes to mind.
Haha but it's yummy! This would be the easiest way to get rid of agricultural meat production for ethical and environmental reasons.
Of course for many species of cows it will be an extinction event.
Yeah and cocaine is fun to do too. Doesn't mean it's healthy.
It wouldn't end animal agriculture. It would just become the vinyl record collectors version of meat consumption.
It saddens me that you believe the only reason for cows existence is because of humans.
If I may suggest donating some time at your local animal sanctuary to meet a cow. Much like dogs or cats they each have very different personalities. They can be very cuddly if they get to know you. Like most herbivores they just want to have good vibes and enjoy their life.
Sorry that was a bit hyperbole it would never be an all or nothing. You'd always have limited grass fed animal husbandry for milk and cheese. But my thought was that there should be some sort of rewilding effort for cows or Buffaloes or whatever their wild form even is or was in Europe.
And I was thinking in the way of harm reduction which is a tactic for drug. You won't convince a majority of people to not want meant so the demand will be there. So practically artificial meat is the only way.
Oh look cherry picked studies
If you look hard enough you can find any study to support your claim with enough word crafting
You need to learn what cherry picking is. These are studies funded by governments. Not meat packing corporations.
But I'm sure I can post some PFAS studies you can deny too.
I knew one of you would show up in this post and make it all about you
This post isn't about you
Your right it's not. It's about your poor health.