Please, for the love of God, VOTE!
I don't like Biden either, but anyone with half a brain knows there are two choices in the 2020 election. If we had a sane voting system, voting third party might be worth it, but as it stands, no one but you knows your favorite candidate exists and unless you want to become their campaign manager that will still be true in November. Even if you did, and even if you convinced two thirds of the people who would otherwise have voted for Biden to vote for your chosen candidate instead, Trump would still win because half the country voted for him and your guy only got a third. If you vote third party you might as well stay home.
Not voting isn't going to stop the genocide in Gaza. The US will continue to funnel them arms no matter which candidate wins this November. Trump practically campaigns on how much he hates the Jews and he's publicly told Israel to "finish up their war". He'll also make life a living hell for anyone who isn't a straight cisgender male back here at home.
A vote for a candidate is not an endorsement of them or their policies, it's a statement that you like their policies more than the other guy's, and "sticking it to liberals" and "refusing to support genocide" (that's not what voting for Biden is doing, by the way -- a vote for either candidate is a vote for genocide and a vote for neither is an endorsement of both) is not more important than keeping the furthest right politician America has ever seen out of office.
How incredibly privileged do you have to be to see an entire national election as what will happen in the Middle East and ignore Trump's campaign promises to wipe transgender Americans off the map, and further, to not realize that the same thing will happen in the Middle East regardless of which candidate wins?
I hate Biden as much as every other leftist here. But I'll still vote for him because Trump is worse. If there's a single bone in your body that cares about the lives of your trans friends you will too.
Also, trump appointed 3 supreme court justices, who will be there FOR LIFE.
Assassinate'em, you say?No, just kidding.
I'm just someone watching from Europe, getting a little concerned 😔
Same here. Watching from Europe, and going "hmm, I think we had a few very bloody revolutions to solve these kinds of problems"
Do I hate the two party system? Yes. Do I hate the fact that centrists like Joe Liberman who literally killed universal healthcare in the US are revered and embraced by Biden's party? Yes. Do I hate the fact that Democrats are always dismissive of liberal ideas and often act like complete jackasses and can't admit that when Obama was running there were a ton of Clinton supporters that didn't vote for Obama in a blatant act of pure hypocrisy? Yes.
Do I fucking hate Nazis and Fascist? Fuck yes.
Hence why even if I don't like the Democrat running, I'll vote for them and honestly, Biden isn't too sucktastic. Except for kyrsten sinema, she can fuck right the hell off forever.
I hate how so many critics talk about they when criticising a political party. Get involved. Run for local office, become a part of the inside of the party. How can Democrats ever represent younger leftists, when so few of the younger leftists let their voice be heard outside of anonymous forums?
Yeah lemme get like $2,000,000 so I can go run for office.
All so a bunch of white Boomers can show up and vote against you for being "too radical".
Campaigns don’t tend to be self-funded.
Hey are you involved in your political party? Have you run for local office?
You aren't also being a hypocrite by telling other people to get involved while not doing it yourself right?
Do I hate everything going on in this country? Yes. Do I still keep voting to have the same shit happen over and over? Yes.
I mean if you want to vote in a bunch of fucking Nazis and fascists just for some change , well feel fucking free to do so, I'm just going to consider you stupid and a Nazi.
Joe Biden explicitly said he would veto any legislation involving universal healthcare. You oppose universal healthcare, but you're hiding behind the spectre of "centrists".
https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/mar/10/facebook-posts/when-biden-was-asked-if-he-would-veto-medicare-all/
And again, as a minority in America, I would take Biden over a Nazi any day. Doesn't mean I love him to death and would take him into my arms and give him a reach around but fuck anyone who would vote for a Nazi.
The party needs to start trying to win apathetic voters over if they’re as terrified as they claim to be of trump, not just spout vague platitudes, push out the most bare bones minimum viable policy possible and then shrug when it gets dismembered in committee.
democrats are fascist.
not literally everything that's bad is fascist
Okay they Billy Madison.
this doesnt change the truth of what i said
Sure. Very nice truthiness there Billy.
this is an appeal to ridicule. it is not a rebuttal
Indeed, you've spelled it out plainly: there is no vote option to end the U.S. funding of Israel's genocide in Gaza.
I can either make a vote that won't end it, or I can make a vote that won't end it (and may actually make it worse, as you alluded) and will also lead to significant negative consequences for many groups of people here.
Not just trans, but homosexual, non-white, non-religious, women.
Liberals would rather blame leftists than actually fight fascism.
Buddy, friend, gamer. It’s march. Can you bring this out in six months? There is no reason to fill everyone’s feed up like this and sow political division on the left over seven months before it’s relevant.
Plus, the pressure looks like it’s working, so a vote for Biden might be a lot more palatable then. A lot of your work might get done automatically
So many dumb Americans here not voting. Cutting off your legs so you can hold the moral high ground. Moronic.
Anyone that isn't voting for Biden is helping someone get into office that will implement wildly homophobic and transphobic policies. People in this thread are really showing their cards.
Step 1: defeat Trump Step 2: help reshape Democratic party
Because the fact is, if we don't do step 1 first, we'll have our work cut out for us the next four or more years just being back in 'The Resistance'. Which you know isn't going to make the Dems more liberal, it's going to pull them to the right as more dissatisfied Trump voters finally peel off.
On the other hand, the more resounding of a defeat we can dish out to the GQP and MAGA, the easier it will be to send them into the wilderness to regroup politically so we can focus all of our energies on the Democratic party.
We defeated Trump in 2020. Nothing changed and Biden spent his entire term catering to liberals and moderates.
And republicans and fascists and corporations and Wall Street.. hmmm but he did almost cancel a lot of student debt, but actual trying to cancel most people’s student debt was “too high”. No cracking down on predatory lending or anything. Plenty of other countries have free college, but its just too damn hard in the worlds richest country, you know jack.
Earn the vote Biden.
He can't do it because Congress is too divided because you didn't fucking vote.
Who didn't vote? What senate races were reasonably within reach that people didn't show up for? Same question for the house.
Me when I don't understand what the house and senate are.
Sorry if I am missing your point - did you think he'd cater to conservatives?
Lol! I expected him to make material compromises with the millions of progressives and leftists who held their nose and voted for him. The fact that you seem completely unaware of these factions Democrats depend on to win elections is just... a perfect example of how out of touch liberal and moderate voters are. They can't win elections without our votes. They need to start acting like it.
Okay so you're saying he isn't liberal enough I guess. I am pretty far left myself and would of course love more but I would argue that he's also gotten a lot of pretty great leftist stuff accomplished.
And while we should absolutely hold his feet to the fire to pull him further left, saying "earn my vote or else" with the 'or else' being Trump, is not a very practical threat. Like a cut off your nose to spite your face kind of stupid.
If you want to see the things you care about set back another four years OR MORE than sure, don't vote for Biden this year.
I'm not trying to tell you what to call yourself but if you spend all your time and energy arguing against leftists instead of moderates and liberals what exactly makes you left? Call yourself whatever you like but your actions are indistinguishable from a moderate or a liberal.
🙄Oh please, do tell me what material leftist victory was made by Biden. A bunch of corporate handouts? Not leftist. Passing the IRA? That was the BBB stripped of everything leftists and progressives were excited about. Maybe you're so delusional you think blocking a rail strike is a leftist victory. Or maybe you think shipping weapons to a country committing genocide is some kind of leftist victory. Or raising the defense budget. Or forcing federal workers back to the office. Or setting Yellen and Powell on a war path against American workers.
You clearly have no idea what you're talking about.
The stuff I care about was already held back four years with Biden.
Yeah I've heard this plenty. You realize this cuts both ways right? Moderate and liberal voters refusing to compromise with leftists and progressives is every bit the same. Why are you trying to hold progressives and leftists to a different standard?
I'm arguing with other leftists because I have hope that I can help them make the right choice strategically while countering the rampant rightwing disinfo which like it or not, that's what you're parroting.
Again, you're indistinguishable from a moderate or a liberal. You talk like one, you act like one, you vote like one. Regardless of what you believe you're not doing anything that would accomplish anything we're fighting for.
How has Biden meaningfully moved America towards some form of worker ownership of the Means of Production, and away from Capitalist ownership of the Means of Production?
When will the Democrats move to the left? Will it be next election? What about the one after that? Why has this same line been tossed for decades, prevent fascism now, leftism later?
I ask this as a leftist that will probably hold my nose and vote for Biden: why on Earth do you imagine the DNC will ever move leftwards, instead of remaining liberal right-wingers?
Not advocating for voting third party, but how do you genuinely plan on reshaping the democrat party, and how would this time be different, compared to the past?
Sorry I wasn't clear - I'm saying if you care about reshaping the Dems, you do it after we defeat Trump.
There is no guarantee it will be different this time, that's politics. But giving up on it isn't an option - politics happens to us whether we are active or not. But if you're hoping for change, it'll be a lot harder to see if Trump gets reelected. I promise you that.
That same line was told during 2020, 2016, 2008, 2000, and so forth. Where is the leftist concession? Where is the Democratic party being pushed? How are you planning on achieving change?
You're basically just repeating yourself now. Like it or not, you're parroting the played out lines that the Trumpist want us to repeat to strengthen their hand.
Politics isn't easy but 'burn it down because they're not catering to me' is not a responsible vote this year.
When will it be time? How do you plan on shaping dems? You're repeating yourself here.
I don't know what you're even asking - how do I personally plan to shape the party? If I could wave a magic wand I would but obviously it's something that is shaped by the collective and we all need to be engaged in the various areas we are passionate about.
This 'cater to me or else' sort of nihilism is the laziest sort of attitude and I get really tired of seeing it in liberal circles. I can tell you're passionate and are probably very politically active in your own ways, but so many people seem to think that withholding their vote will sove the problem and that it then somehow absolves them of having to do anything else.
You're wrong on quite a few things here.
How can a leftist meaninfully convince a liberal Capitalist party to move leftward, rather than continuing liberalism? Seriously speaking, if I am a leftist, and I want Leftist change, how do you think I should go about doing that?
It's not nihilism, it's not liberalism, and it's not "cater to me or else," that's pure condescension. I am also not planning on witholding my vote, I want genuine leftist change.
Why does promising to vote for liberalism, a right wing ideology, help Leftists unless the DNC feels threatened by a lack of progressive support and thus concedes?
The moment Trump was defeated in 2020 liberal and moderates did exactly what they always do: demand priority over leftists and progressives in every policy disagreement and Biden was happy to oblige.
No. Moderate voters, liberal voters, the DNC, establishment Democrats and Biden will all reshape now or lose to Trump. Make a choice.
I'm sorry but this is basically the same argument that I got multiple others in this thread so instead of answering again, I'm going to ask you a question.
What exactly is y'alls game plan then? How do you think you'll benefit by punishing Biden and helping get Trump elected?
Your question attempts to hold progressives and leftists to a different standard than moderates and liberals.
What is the game plan of moderates, liberals, establishment Democrats and Biden? How do they think they'll benefit by refusing to make material compromises with leftists and progressives?
You told me this last fucking election and nothing has changed.
I lost my reproductive freedoms
I fear for my wife’s life whenever we have to travel out of state - she’s trans
Clarance fucking Thomas is threatening to undo gay marriage.
The democrats have done NOTHING for me. And instead i’m watching half of them cheerlead a fucking genocide of brown people in the middle east
How are they different from republicans? How is biden different than trump? He’s trying to pass trump’s immigration plan while letting Bibi murder his neighbors.
Nah fam. I’m officially giving up. People like you who refuse to hold democrats to account have made life worse for everyone.
I'm sorry but you are blaming the wrong people for all of this
no, no... i think they're onto something
It's clear y'all are trolls at this point
This is a really contrived hypothesis and probably wishful thinking considering the current state of the world, but hear me out:
You know how the Overton window gets shifted? Rightwing voters grew a lot in the US and Democrats had to get more to the right to appeal to them and not keep losing.
We just need to force the reverse. If Democrats keep winning elections Republicans will be forced to put out a candidate that’s more palatable to leftists sooner or later. Someone who isn’t a literal movie villain. At that point, Democrats will lose their only selling point (being the alternative to Satan himself), and they will have to actually push for leftist policies to get people to vote.
This can only happen if Democrats win a lot of times in a row though. Even one Republican win will ensure them that they can keep pushing fascists and have a chance to win.
The thing I generally disagree with is the idea that Democrats would move leftward, and not just further into Liberalism. Even Social Democracies in the Nordic countries are seeing a decrease in the welfare state, just like Reagan did with FDR-era policies.
Fuck that, pass electoral reform so people can vote 3rd party with no spoiler effect and leave these dinosaur political parties in the past where they belong.
Do you think it'll be easier or harder to get electoral reform passed if Trump is elected?
I think that the threat of losing to trump is the most powerful leverage progressives and leftists have at getting actual reformation of the party, and this election is the democrats race to lose.
So right now everyone who is pissed at Biden or the democrats, should be letting their anger known and be as loud as possible about it
Agreed.
Either moderate and liberal voters along with establishment Democrats and Biden make a big pivot or this will go down in history as a lesson: do not fuck with labor.
Except step one is repeated every. damn. time.
Its never time to reshape the Democratic Party. If the democrats win, it will be too early to fix the Democratic Party for millions of reasons. And four years pass and every campaign promise is ignored, and all of a sudden it’s back to 1. Beat the new threat to “democracy” 2. Fix the Democratic Party… ad nauseam forever.
It's never too early to help shape the Democratic party, absolutely do it now. But it's a long process and if you can't see how it has changed in the last 20 years already I don't know what to tell you. And beating Trump is priority #1 if we're going to continue on that path.
We can’t do that if people don’t vote actual leftist in the primaries because “commies won’t win the general”.
Bc boomers have strangeholded our govt for decades. Its convenient that now that theyre dying off this is the shit we get to try and elect the actual genocidal maniac and not the dinosaur keeping to the same foreign policy the US has kept for 70 yrs in order to keep our other allies from thinking we will abandon them the way we did the Kurds or Ukraine.
Anyone who doesn’t vote immediately loses the right to complain for the next 4 years.
Don’t like it? Should’ve done your duty and put in a vote.
Fuck you, fence sitters
Hey hi, it's me, your trans friend. And you need to put this energy towards protesting Biden instead of leftists. I honestly feel like you are low key getting trolled and missing the point?
Like, seriously, we all know "shithole countries" Trump would be worse on every single issue, including and especially Gaza. But it's six months till the election, PLENTLY of time for a course change by Biden. Absolutely a second Trump term scares the 💩 out of me. So i appreciate where you are coming from, but until it's November, I think pressing Dems and trusting leftists to do whats right day of is the most good y'all can do.
i can't trust leftists because leftists are stupid. look how they lost italy, the leftists splintered and refused to work together because of petty shit which allowed the right including literal fascists to take over the government. this is the same type of dumb stuff that happens everywhere with leftists, because of their "holier than thou" attitude.
i will not leave the election's outcome in the leftists' hands because they always fuck it up when that's the case. they always refuse to cooperate with the enemies of their enemy because they don't see them as left enough, despite it being the only option to not have their long-term goals permanently blocked off, and the country always devolves into diet fascism afterwards. it has lost us many nations throughout history, so no thanks.
This is actually straight up revisionism, it was the Liberals who sided with fascists, rather than working with Leftists to stop the fascists, that directly allowed for Hitler and Mussolini to come to power.
I'm not sure what you mean by "the Liberals" but I'm not referring to pre-WW2. I'm referring to right now. The current state of Italy. The one where leftists had the government, and then completely screwed up in the face of a rising right-wing threat because they decided they don't agree with some of the things the other leftists were doing.
Ah, fair. I am not as familiar with modern Italy, but it sounds like refusing to work together is a two-way street, though I would love to see an example of what you're specifically referring to.
The easiest (although not best) example for Italy is the PM. The previous center-left politicians in office were by no means perfect PMs, but the left's infighting and the ensuing breakup of the coalition of various left and center-left parties caused Draghi to resign, and the next (and current) PM is Giorgia Meloni who is an actual fascist who has on multiple occasions reminisced of the good old days with Mussolini in charge and a good economy. Nowadays with hindsight people miss the preceding leftist PMs and think they were actually pretty good after all, but it's too late for that. The country has already started a tumble towards the right and it'd be extremely hard to get it out, especially considering that the left still is refusing to work together.
There were other factors, such as the left in Italy generally tending anti-Ukraine and the population's concerns about immigration, as well as the right focusing a lot on anti-LGBTQ rhetoric/paranoia (Italy is a very catholic nation so this was an effective strategy), but the most important factor and the ultimate killing blow was the left breaking apart.
There's definitely a lot more to it, than that. I'd have to research more, because historically it's always the Liberals who refuse to work with Leftists against fascists.
Just like now with a bunch if liberals filling up my feed with vote blue no matter who bullshit.
Benjamin Netanyahu himself could be running as the democratic nominee and they’d tell me he’s better than trump.
He isn’t. Netanyahu and trump are two peas in a pod.
Wait, what do you mean? So far I think I’ve only seen some leftists be against sending weapons (which is still a stupid position to take considering the situation), but nothing explicitly anti-Ukraine and absolutely not the majority. Did I miss something?
Italy isn't real, it was made up by the House of Savoy to justify conquering adjacent city-states.
Demanding people vote for genocide as a lesser of two evils is where we are at now.
Let us not forget how much Trump hates environmental regulation. He will auction off America's treasures for whoever sticks enough money in his pocket. Biden has done a pretty decent job of maintaining the old guard mentality of preservation and conservation (as imperfect as that may be).
I wish more people cared about the environment.
This will be the most important election in the history of the united states. You have two choices, Dictator, or Democracy. A no vote is a vote AGAINST Democracy.
I hear this every single election.
Dems - "democracy is at stake! THIS IS THE SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT ELECTION IN YOUR LIFE"
Me - *Holds nose and votes for the lesser evil"
Dems - "thanks guys that was close" Proceeds to sit around with a thumb in their collective asshole for 4 years.
...
Dems - "Democracy is at stake! REALLY guys - THIS is the most important election ever!"
It's fucking exhausting. If the Dems really wanted people to come out and vote, they would spend less time begging for our votes, and more time representing our collective interests.
Every fucking election in my lifetime has been “the most important in history”
You all have cried wolf too many times. If you get eaten, it’s liberals fault.
Election of 1860: am i joke to u?
If it's so important then why isn't Biden doing everything he can to compromise with leftists and progressives? Dude should be standing at a podium begging us like "Please! I'm sorry I blocked the rail strike I won't do it again. Federal workers can continue working remotely. I won't raise the defense budget again. I will fight to block weapon shipments to Israel. Please help me."
Or is this democracy not worth that to him?
Lmao typical DNC advertisement regurgitation. This election is not 'the most important election in history'.
Third party of bust
Oh wow you're the guy from OPs meme
We looking at different memes, or should I clarify my stance further?
Vote for third party or bust. A vote for Democrats or Republicans is the same path we're already on, and nobody likes this path
You're gonna get Bust. Vote third party if you want, that's your right (assuming you're a U.S. citizen of course), but a vote for third party is lowering the bar of victory for the worst human alive to hold that office.
You don't have to understand the consequences of your actions, but that's what they are. More genocide, foot on the accelerator towards climate catastrophe, pouring gasoline on what's left of women's rights and setting them on fire.
It's easy to write "fuck literally everyone except the enemies of my enemies" on a piece of paper and throw it in the trash, I don't understand why you'd go through the trouble of voting if that's all you want to do. There are FAR more effective methods of protest.
Then tell Biden to stop being a dumbass.
If I had that kind of access I certainly would.
Sounds like U.S. democracy has already failed then.
You may as well be saying "MAGA or bust".
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vote_splitting
MAGA is "bust". OsrsNeedsF2P is saying he is ok with MAGA because he is personally wealthy enough to weather the storm.
Yeah that's projection. Hurt people, hurt people. They might just be downtrodden and view a change of suffering to be good enough to support.
The new suffering coming is just a concept and not real, so it's less painful in the now even if it might not be in the future. But that yearning for change is basic and people will support all kinds of stuff if they think it will change their current suffering.
How do you expect Trump to do as President if he wins?
You realize Trump is just the tip of the iceberg right? It's not like once he no longer runs the MAGA crowd will disappear. What's your plan for addressing it? Because we held our noses and elected Biden in 2020 and all he's done is fucked around for 3 years.
Oooh no you don't. You can't do the shitty Manager thing and try to toss this back at me. Answer your own question.
Now is the time to pressure Biden. This is the tender time where leftists can actually force consessions, and those won't happen if you "Vote Blue no matter who" the situation as Biden is actively facilitating a genocide. Even if you ultimately plan on voting for him, you must pressure him now as though you may not, or you will be spinelessly contributing to even more genocide.
Biden supports genocide because Israel is a valuable ally to the US empire as a foothold in the Middle East, and will only go against that if it looks like it may cost him the election. Do not assume Biden is a good person that just needs to "see reason," that's utter Utopianism. Biden has his interests, and we have ours, so to steer him we need to fight hard, now.
Please save this sentiment for after Leftists have successfully pressured Biden into ending the genocide, not while he is actively arming Israel.
But how do you actually press someone in that position? If Trump didn’t support genocide you could at least try and leverage on that, but he knows we have no alternative.
We’re in a situation where he knows every person with a brain that doesn’t want fascism will vote for him. He can only realistically be pressed to make changes that could appeal to Rightwing voters, and being pro-genocide might actually be a positive for those.
The "uncommited" movement is forcing concessions. It's a game of chicken, but it's our most valuable influence on elections.
People need to understand that it's possible to vote against genocide.
No, it doesn't matter that he's an active participant in the apparatus that's creating the genocide, because if he's in office there's less genocide. Which is the important part, and pretending otherwise is sophistry. If you abstain from voting, you are increasing the likelihood of more genocide and if you discourage others from voting, you are an active participant in the overall social apparatus that is probabilistically increasing the amount of genocide.
The utility calculation is dead simple: more votes for Biden in key states makes more genocide less likely, and discouraging people from voting for Biden makes more genocide more likely. Therefore, discouraging people from voting for Biden is a pro-genocide strategy and voting for Biden in battleground states is an anti-genocide strategy. I live in a solid blue state, so I reserve the right to vote third party, but I will also encourage other people to vote for Biden.
You should vote for Biden unless you live in a solid blue state, and even then it's not a bad idea.
Edit: grammar correction
Even if you're in a solid blue state, vote for Biden. Because you don't know if it's your vote that pushes your state over that line.
I think your stance on the issue is entirely reasonable.
The endgame of your utility calculation is genocidal. 30 years from now, I suspect you'll still be blasting this "vote blue no matter who" nonsense when the choice is between a dem supporting 5 genocides and a repub supporting 10 genocides. You've been anchor biased hard as fuck.
What's your plan that makes the endgame not genocidal? Remember to make it fit reality.
You say "make it fit reality", but why do I feel like what you really mean is "make sure it does not at all challenge US hegemony".
If your ecocidal political project whose institutions were devised a blink ago by 30 year old slavers starts going genocidal, your project has lost the right to exist. To put it plainly, I think we all have a duty to start thinking about what dismantling the genocidal US empire would look like: reading marx, getting armed, building networks, embracing anti-capitalism, and preparing for this country's undeniably inevitable backslide into fascism.
Voting Biden doesn’t prevent you from doing this, you know. Rather, it would probably make it easier.
Let's suppose there are going to be genocides, what's better, 5 or 10?
Thank you for defining anchor bias in such a succinct comment.
Thanks for not answering a very simple question.
In your hypothetical 30 years in the future scenario, this would still be a "more genocide" and "less genocide" pick. We should never have genocide but there's no way to express that in the US binary voting system, so the choice would have to be tactical.
What do you propose instead?
Wow how edgy. I don't like either candidate so I'll protest-stay-home. As if not voting is a form of protest.
Actually I'm legitimately curious. Where did that idea come from? Where did you get the idea that voting = endorsement.
If you were stranded in the wilderness and your options were to eat bug1 or bug2, would you choose to starve to death because "well, I just don't want people to think that I enjoy eating cockroach". Get over yourself and your childish mindset. Choosing not to participate is still making a choice.
Maybe when the maga fanatics come for your lgbt+ friends and family you'll think differently. Or maybe not. I don't know you or how comfortable you are with the maga end-game.
I'm a transhumanist; my endgame is the abolition of all hardships including involuntary death. I want as many as possible among the those alive today to experience the universe beyond the fading of the last stellar remnants. That means clawing and fighting in every way I can and know how to allow as many people alive now to continue living. That means less genocide is better than more genocide, which in turn means that the immediate goal is making a Biden victory as likely as possible as I prepare more long-term projects. The long-term projects eliminate genocide. The Short term projects mitigate genocide. More successful short term projects increases the likelihood of more successful long-term projects.
In short: it is incredibly small-minded, presumptuous, and uncharitable of you to assume that I think voting is the only part of this massive game. Fuck off.
None of them are voting for Trump. Some may be voting for a third party, some will vote for Biden.
I've never heard an actual human talk that way who wasn't deeeep into MAGA.
Have you ever spoken to a Leftist? The Left hates Liberals, especially because historically Liberals have sided with fascists against Leftists.
I’ve never heard an actual human talk that way who wasn’t deeeep into MAGA.
So you have never spoken to a Leftist, got it.
I know many. We would never, ever, advocate for the sorts of things you are. Obvious Trump supporter is obvious.
Never have I voted for Trump, nor have I considered it. You certainly aren't a leftist, lol. Hell, I voted for Biden last time, and probably will again, but I am not delusional and don't expect the DNC to ever move to the left via electoralism.
Then please go out and talk to any ppl other than your WoW clan lmao
WoW is the only 2-party system that rivals the US when it comes to which party did the most war crimes
haha lmao
Or the equivalent of voting for trump, anyway. And also note that they seem very angry over the notion that ppl will vote for biden while pursuing other forms of change or at the very least advocating for them.
It's a bad time to not be an American because that country holds far too much sway over the rest of the world and you can't even help picking the lesser poison.
Jill Stein and Cornel fucking West are also on the ballot.
I've had "leftists" here on lemmy act like Stein and West are legitimate candidates. She hasn't gotten any traction any other time she's run and I'm not sure why this time would be any different.
The traction she got in 2016 is the reason we're having this conversation.
Oh, I was having the conversation because of her failed run in 2012.
If you can get on enough ballots to win, you're a legitimate candidate.
I agree, unfortunately .036% isn't a winning percentage.
If I reply with STOP will these "please vote" memes go away? Because I'm gonna vote the way everybody wants me to and they're almost as annoying as the texts I get from the DNC.
If moderates really don’t want trump to win so bad, maybe they should make some real commitments to policy changes that the left want, not just half baked, watered down “market based” solutions that get shredded to a skeleton in committee.
Moderates can scream their lungs out all they want, but talk is cheap, and if they want the left on side they should earn that and not act so entitled to their support. Trump is bad, he shouldn’t win, but why is it on the left to keep him from winning? Why is it never the moderates fault for failing to hold up their end of the coalition?
I just can't believe it's gonna be these two losers again. This is our best and brightest?
Lame.
Let's be real, this isn't about people not voting anymore.
Those of us who have resolved to vote Biden despite much of our displeasure towards the handling of Israel/Gaze were going to do so anyways. You won't convince those who have decided not to vote this way either.
Screaming at people to vote will not make them want to vote. Worst case scenario you piss them off enough that the spite vote against you. People aren't puppets for you to control by telling them what's in their bests interests and demanding they follow through. You have to work with them in a pleasant manner if you genuinely want to convince them.
But again, I don't think this is about people not voting anymore. Some people are genuinely unhappy that others are unhappy with their options for candidates. So many people on the moderate left can't be satisfied with the fact that they have such a firm grip on intelligent voters who understand the status quo. It's not enough for them to know that our options are bleak and that we have to vote for someone supporting genocide, versus letting someone who would openly participate in genocide get in office. You genuinely want us to shut up and stop complaining and to stop criticizing the current administration.
Also, the amount of people I've seen discuss implementing mandatory voting as if it wasn't a trait of an authoritarian government is insane. Maybe if our voting process had more options it wouldn't be authoritarian, but as it stands now making voting mandatory would be little more than coercion.
I'm voting for a third party instead of the slightly less evil fascist. I recommend y'all do as well. Dr. West and Claudia La Cruz are good options.
If you're not in a swing state I recommend you do the same.
Why dont you pressure Biden to stop genociding people then? I have a hard and fast rule about genocide, sorry but present day me doesn't make the rules about who I vote for.
Do you believe Trump/Republicans will decrease, maintain, or increase the current genocide levels?
I mean Biden spent more on the immigrant wall than Trump, so prob less genocide somehow, seeing as how there is precedent. Funny how none of the presidents tackle the corporation side of the “immigrant problem” by going after people hiring the undocumented if that is such a big problem. You remove the incentive that would slow it down more than trying to torture people at the border no?
Why are you trying to pressure people to vote for the guy facilitating genocide, instead of for Biden to stop facilitating genocide?
The only explanations I can come up with are either that you support what he is doing, or on some level, you understand we have no influence on policy and so trying to get Biden to do things that will get people to vote for him is a waste of time.
This same shit happened when Obama did fuckall about Bush's policies and endlessly compromised. Of course, the voters were blamed when Obama lost the house and senate, and in 2016 too.
Do you honestly think Trump would even try to negotiate a ceasefire?
Trump will do whatever people pay him the most to do as long as it's not upholding his oath of office.
Fucking hell, the liberals are using trans people as an excuse to throw the palestinians under the bus.
Look, if you're going to disregard the palestinians' human rights, then there will come a time when you'll do the same for trans people, and they are amart enough to know that.
The queer people's greatest strength is solidarity so spoiler alert, this won't really fly, how about you use your vote as a bargaining chip instead of sTrATegIcALly voting no questions asked?
Neither are you.
Great comeback, I'm sure Trans people are lining up to thank you for your internet comments.
Same to you from the comment I replied to. Really added a lot there. Surely I wasn’t lambasting your idiotic retort.
Neither is voting blindly, which can be used as a justification for Biden doing nothing against the genocide. Being passive is making things worse.
Why do you think Trump will do anything other than make it worse?
https://www.politico.com/news/2024/03/25/trump-says-israel-should-finish-up-gaza-war-00148910
See what happens to the Palestinians when Trump gets elected you lazy piece of shit. I'm done with you self-serving assholes.
See what's happening to the Palestinians now under Biden.
Tell me why you think it would be different under Trump.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/donald-trump-urges-israel-to-finish-it-up-and-end-war-against-hamas-in-gaza/ar-BB1kyZr4
Edit: Did you even read the article you linked? That is Trump telling Israel's leader that he needs to stop attacking Palestinians. Do you think that's bad?
I never said or implied that it would be. It won't be different under Biden either. Which is my point.
Although there is a case to be made about Biden's long history of gleefully jumping at every chance he gets to murder Arabs over his entire political career.
I simply do not think that is true. Here's an article from Politico in which he describes himself as "the most pro-Israel president ever" and implies he endorses the continued use of force.
And your proposed alternative is what? Voting third party? Even if you convinced two thirds of the people who would otherwise have voted for Biden to vote for the same third party candidate instead, Trump would still win because half the country voted for him and your guy only got a third. It's not viable. Never will be as long as we use first-past-the-post.
Tell me more about that.
Advocating people put political pressure on a candidate to change policy = lazy.
Getting off your ass once every few years to vote, and do it unconditionally = the embodiment of activism.
ps. Calling me lazy for not voting in the americans' elections is a very smart move.
Tankies and their ilk don't understand the concept of "worse". They are only intelligent enough to understand "Biden means genocide, can't vote for him", anything outside that thought is beyond their capacity.
I mean, what do you expect from people who think that strategies that failed 100 years ago are somehow going to work now in a totally different world?
A bargaining chip backed by what? "Clean up your act or you'll lose one of your approximately 100 million votes?"
Oh, but no, we should get all our friends in on it too, so they'll lose maybe 10,000 of their 100 million votes if they don't clean up their act.
No one but you knows your favorite third-party candidate exists, and unless you want to become their campaign manager that will still be true in November. Even if you did, and even if you convinced two thirds of the people who would otherwise have voted for Biden to vote for your chosen candidate instead, Trump would still win because half the country voted for him and your guy only got a third. If you vote third party you might as well stay home.
Not voting isn’t going to stop the genocide in Gaza. The US will continue to funnel them arms no matter which candidate wins this November. Trump practically campaigns on how much he hates the Jews and he’s publicly told Israel to “finish up their war” so that life for Israelis can go back to normal. He’ll also make life a living hell for anyone who isn’t a straight cisgender male back here at home.
A vote for a candidate is not an endorsement of them or their policies, it’s a statement that you like their policies more than the other guy’s, and “sticking it to liberals” and “refusing to support genocide” (that’s not what voting for Biden is doing, by the way – a vote for either candidate is a vote for genocide and a vote for neither is an endorsement of both) is not more important than keeping the furthest right politician America has ever seen out of office.
Switching away from first past the post voting allows people to vote for who represents them best while still counting their vote against those they dont want to win. Just search for videos on FPTP voting if you want an explanation on how and why the spoilereffect exists that makes third parties not viable.
Electoral reform is possible in each individual state (for now), we dont need federal reform! Maine and Alaska have already passed electoral reform.
So what’s the hold up with the rest of the states? Consider starring a campaign to change how we vote in your own state! Force our representatives to compete with fresh outside ideas. We deserve the best representation, not excuses.
The whigs (conservative but more left relatively) and the democrats (conservative but more right relatively) back in the day were facing a similar moral issue. The whigs refused to answer the question of "what do we do about slavery" and a ton of whig and anti-slavery voters formed their own party (Lincoln's republicans) because they didn't want slavery anymore. This is how 3rd parties win- by another party dying. As far as I'm concerned, both republicans and democrats need to be replaced with something more representative, but if I were to make a guess, the Democratic Party will be the first to die.
It's crazy to me that you don't have a mandatory voting system. Hopefully enough on the left gets out and votes. I do have a feeling that due to tRump losing a portion of his base, he may lose simply because of a lack of votes.
maybe it will stop the next one though
if democrats learn that allowing a genocide to unfold on their watch is going to lose them elections, you can bet they'll put more effort into stopping it
if democrats learn that allowing genocide to unfold on their watch actually doesn't make that much difference, why would they bother themselves to stop it?
a vote for a candidate is an endorsement for all of their policies, whether you want it to be or not
your reluctant vote looks exactly the same on the tally as somebody else's wholehearted vote, and votes are what politicians base their platforms on.
this is just a misconception
if the democrats lose a million votes to a third party, then yeah, they're going to modify their policies next time around
Woah, calm down buddy. No reason why there should be a next time. Republicans are already creating projects as if there isn't.
if you think voting for biden this time is more important, then by all means do that
just understand the choice you're making, rather than pretending one doesn't exist
We understand we are voting for the candidate who realizes and disapproves of Israel's treatment of Gaza (the other one would triple down and encourage it harder) as well as the candidate who supports Ukraine (the other one would give it to putin for free) and also the candidate who won't genocide LGBT community within our own country.
Anyone who doesn't vote Biden does not care about Gaza. Not at all. They're just virtue signaling and afraid to admit they want to vote for Trump.
Biden has taken months to stop veto-ing UN votes on Gaza, and even when finally abstaining, his administration pulls its punches by claiming the vote is somehow "non-binding".
Israel is still bombing Gaza, even after the ceasefire vote.
Biden says he cares about Gaza. His actions say otherwise.
He's currently gambling that he can have his cake and eat it too, ie continue supporting Israel as a valuable foothold for the American Empire in the Middle East while also paying lip service to leftists.
We need to make sure he actually feels the heat of his actions and that they may cost him the election for him to meaningfully cease aid to Israel.
That's absolutely terrible analysis. Just because you personally believe something doesn't mean leftists that disagree with you want to vote directly for a fascist, and I say that as a leftist that is probably going to vote for Biden. I'm just not delusional about it, Biden hasn't stopped the genocide at all when everyone knew it was a genocide months ago.
Republicans trying to dismantle democracy and install an authoritarian government?
Sounds serious.
So when are democrats dropping gun control? Clearly there is a imminent existential threat to our nation!
SocialistRA.org
The United States won't be destroyed by a handful of people not getting off their collective ass on election day and 3rd parties aren't viable.
this is just a misconception
if the democrats lose a million votes to a third party, then yeah, they're going to modify their policies next time around
Yeah and meanwhile Trump wins and we’re all fucked. Just keep patting yourself on the back as we all sink. The OP is absolutely correct.
Don’t be fooled, this is absolutely the angle foreign disinformation agents are pushing. “Genocide Joe” is no different than “Bernie or Bist”, he’ll, or “Stop the steal”
Sounds like passing comprehensive electoral reform is not only the right thing to do, but it is also crucial to the stability of the country. Republicans obviously hate democracy, and have passed legislation trying to ban switching away from first past the post voting. Do you REALLY want to use the same voting system republicans want? What's the excuse blue states?
Consider watching a video on First Past the Post voting if you want to know more.
I don't think this has any proof.
Lol political threads at night on lemmy are good proof. So weird how at night, all of lemmy is suddenly not liking the idea of voting for Biden, or voting 3rd party, when during regular American hours it's not the case. You'd have to be pretty ignorant or even part of the disinformation to not notice
if this were true it would be trivial to provide links
Literally look at this comment section: people are discouraging voting for Joe biden. What could the result be if everybody listened except that Trump would win the election? How does that even make sense if you care for the people in Gaza to get a new president that wants Isreal to "hurry up and finish up in Gaza"?
"oh but Biden isn't perfect! The democratic party should only have a perfect candidate!" That's not how real life works, and especially not the crappy voting system the US has. Either you help Biden wins the presidency, where he is at least trying to discourage Israel from further violence, or where Trump wins and he will continue to give Israel a thumbs up.
"but Genocide!" Yeah these are shitting options, but do you want more Genocide or less? There's only one path with the potential for less genocide and not voting or voting for trump will only incur more of it.
Edit: Disregard. Previous comment broke site rules and I take it back. I apologize.
"Foreign oligarchs are taking over!" - US oligarchs probably
if you think voting for biden this time is more important, then by all means do that
just understand the choice you're making, rather than pretending one doesn't exist
People think we have lived in a world of Democrats vs. Republicans. However, it’s always been a case of the rich vs. the not rich. The rich always wins, the rich always supports the rich, and the rich doesn’t give a flying fuck about you if you’re not a millionaire or a billionaire. So we can argue over Trump vs. Biden until we’re blue in the face. And we all know Trump is a piece of shit, but if you think Biden will do anything in the next 4 years that he didn’t do the previous 4 years you are delusional. I will vote for Biden, but I understand the outcome. Anyone that thinks Biden will do shit for them is either rich or lying to themselves.
Anyone who isn't brainwashed by government propaganda and who is in good faith knows that supporting corrupted criminals is never the smart thing to do and that keeping voting for the "lesser evil" is exactly how sooner or later you end up with a dictator in power.
Not supporting these fueling the genocide is indeed a way to stop the genocide. The US will continue to do as it please them and aid israel government because they are confident that neither red or blue will lose the elections and they will not lose any power. Unsupporting these parties will force them to change their policies not to lose any votes and lose their monopoly on power.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_support_for_Israel_in_the_2023_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war
There's a genocide happening right now where thousand of kids already were murdered and keep getting murderer as we speak. For these innocent people and not for the love of any god people should overthrow and fight the corrupted criminals that are making it possible, not supporting scum is already the smallest thing you should do.
Do you have a source for this claim? The US has been voting this way for 250 years, and it's citizens have more rights than ever so forgive me for being a little bit skeptical.
How's those rights to bodily autonomy going?
That's not a source for your claim.
I'm a different user. I'm talking about your claim about the U.S. having more rights than ever, not the other claim.
Cool story new person, you still didn't provide a source.
Because I'm talking about a different thing, and I was asking a question.
And no response from them but it's people complaining who are wrong cause it makes them feel bad and it can be waived away with "but I'm sure it's better now, it's good for me"
Same argument every time. Sure harm reduction isn't working but maybe you haven't tried being up against a bad enough harm and also we need to not make a sound or else Mommy might come in and beat us for being upset.
Complaints about the system and setup we are in are more upsetting to those that can ignore it than the issues themselves.
I think these parties would sooner abandon no-voters who want change rather than actually change.
There aren't many people that call themselves leftist and elections are won for Democrats by getting disinterested voters to the polls.
This meme is trash and serves no purpose other than dividing people. Anyone worried about Biden to losing this election should hope he changes strategies and starts motivating voters like he did 2020.
I'm a trans person. Here's what I'm most concerned about: the dehumanization of Palestinians and immigrants. Biden has gone along 100% with the dehumanization of these groups
how the fuck am I supposed to trust Democrats that claim to support trans people when this is how they support Palestine? This is a president thats supporting an ongoing genocide while persuing draconian immigration policies. Am I supposed to just throw those groups under the bus for my own personal gain?
You've made it abundantly clear that if Biden was pushing anti-trans policies, you'd still support him. You've made it clear there is absolutely nothing Biden could do that would lose your support.
It's not about support. It's not about 100% agreement with Biden's policies. It's about using your vote as a tactical choice to influece the government as best you can.
Each US citizen has three options: vote for Trump, vote for Biden, or don't vote. For me it's clear what the only viable choice is.
By all means protest. By all means vote undecided in the primary. Of course we should use other means to put pressure on someone like Biden to change his policies. But at the end of the day he's playing the tactical game too. And so is Israel, btw. They know that the US is weakened by the election cycle, that Biden's hands are tied right now by the need to retain centrist votes.
It's a practical decision, that should be made not based on an ideal world, but based on the real world in which we currently live and the options we actually have.
How does commiting to voting for Biden this far out from the election influence his policy? If he knows he has the leftist vote, why would he change? Why would leftists give up the only leverage allowed to them to continue genocide and liberalism, rather than protest and force concessions from Biden?
I just want to add: this isn't only a leftists thing. This is a Michigan thing. It's Muslims and Arabs who are watching their brethren slaughtered.
This is a key point. Biden is playing a dangerous game if he is serious about winning this.
I have no stats to back this, but I'd wager that leftists are more willing to concede and vote for Biden than Muslims and Arabs.
It doesn't. We have limited options, the system is flawed.
So then protest against Biden as hard as you can, now.
Absolutely do that. But still vote against Trump in November. And due to the aforementioned flaws, in a tight race, abstaining or voting 3rd party may be ideologically superior, but tactically ill-advised.
Make up your mind, do you want people to protest or to make themselves safely ignorable by promising their votes six months in advance?
Agreed.
Yeah you're right, trump is better. /S Don't let perfect be the enemy of progress. Trump will ensure to help Israel, and he will look for more ways to hurt trans people.
Not just Israel. But Russia too.
Yeah you're right, genocide is not a deal breaker. /S
How is Trump who supports genocide abroad AND at home better?
In September 2023,, did you think you'd be supporting a candidate that you acknowledge is committing a genocide? Because my expectations for liberals in 2023 were already very low. But this is some Nazi Germany shit that we're living in now.
In September of 2023, I was prepared to vote blue in my State of Virginia, where we had a Red governor, a Blue Senate, and a Red House with the legislature seats all up for grabs. Now the legislative branch is Blue and the Governor is kept firmly in check and unlikely to run for President any longer.
And I never acknowledged Biden supported genocide; merely pointing out your fallacy in supporting actual genocide. In fact, the actions of the Biden administration to Palestinians in the US is contrary to your claims of the administration supporting genocide: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/biden-protects-palestinian-immigrants-in-u-s-from-deportation-israel-hamas-war/
Doing minor shit while paying lip service to the idea that maybe you'll actually do something about your closest ally committing a genocide is WEAK. Especially when it's almost 6 months after this shit already started.
It's very clear that Biden supports this genocide and is only now doing something about it because the commoners are actually reacting to it
This is an honestly insulting thing to say. We have eyes. We know where the missiles are made. We know that a convoy of trucks can deliver more aid than air drops and a dock built out of rubble and corpses. The Biden administration supports genocide in palestine. Full stop. No amount of gaslighting can change that fact.
There is no better time to make demands from the Democratic Party than right. now. as they need progressives and leftists to win. They have shown time and time again they are not willing to change their party in times of ease.
You want to change them? Get them to the white house. If Biden loses and becomes a perfect angel attempting to fulfill your every wish, want to know what you get? Whatever the fuck Trump wants to give you for 4 years. That's continued Genocide in Gaza, and more laws restricting Trans rights.
To say that Democrats have not changed party in all these years is ridiculous. The first US president to join a picket line is Joe Biden. The largest investment to fight global warming was signed by Joe Biden.
You want Democrats to pass more things? they need more than just a 1 vote lead in the senate. They need to control congress AND the presidency.
And i probably will, but this “you don’t have a choice, so shut up about criticizing Biden because in 6 months there will be an election” Is very much bull shit. Sounds like people who are happy with a right wing Democratic Party don’t want the disenfranchised to have a say. Right now is THE time to call out Biden for his horse shit. And if he loses the next election, that’s not on the disenfranchised voters, that’s on the democrats for disenfranchising their voters. If we ever get ranked choice voting i will most Likely never vote democrat again. And i wonder if that’s why they kill voting reform
Well I'm glad you live in a fantasy world where your abstinence doesn't have real world impact that is demonstrably worse, specifically in regards to the very genocide to which you refer, but unfortunately the rest of us live in the real world where sometimes we have to evaluate the weight of ideological purity vs real world harm impact.
Voting isn't a chess game. I just vote to my ideals. I hope more people do, because it's the only way things will ever change, sans revolution.
What, are liberals not willing to fight (physically) to get their democracy back from a dictatorship?
Or maybe Americans would be more successful than the Hotel Kaiserhof in Berlin was.
Lol, yeah I'm going to organize an armed rebellion against a country that can shoot me in the chest with a fucking rocket covered in swords from the other side of the world while I'm chilling on my deck with my family.
Just put on a red hat and you'll be fine.
Worked for the average German in the 1930s-40s
Are you? If so, give me a place and date! I'll be right there!
If not, then shut the fuck up!
You sound like a cop.
Saying "if I don't get my way entirely I'm taking the ball and going home" is the opposite of how progress happens.
And as a follow-up, aside from voting, what other real on-the-grounds steps have you taken to progress or legitimize real leftism in America?
Who says I'm left?
Sorry, I just assumed you were decent
I'm fairly moderate, and extremely moderate for a Lemmy user.
I'm sure you're decent, even though you try to make fun of me for having a distinct political ideology that doesn't conform to the leftist internet hivemind.
Most of my biggest priorities are left leaning, but outside the scope of common discourse. Such as independence from Chinese rare earth elements, prohibiting child marriage, and banning cigarettes and tobacco.
I don't subscribe to any specific version of ideology, I merely think leftist mentality is the foregone conclusion of reasoned thinking amongst decent people.
If you think I'm using "leftist" in the tribalist way popular online and not as colloquial shorthand, you are mistaken.
"Their answer is long and nuanced, while mine is short, simple, and makes me feel good about myself. Therefore I'm correct."
How childish. Get your head out of your own ass please.
excited to hear a feddit poster explain how refusing to endorse a genocide is childish 🍿
let me guess, good liberal democrat voters are just following orders, right?
What's childish is not acknowledging the 2 facts that
Trump will make the genocide worse. Abstaining from a UN security council vote is a pretty flaccid response, but it's the most any US President has done since since Israel's inception.
The US President has responsibilities and influence beyond whatever Israel is doing. Biden losing increases the chance of a 2nd genocide in Ukraine and potentially an expanding war in Europe. That's not even mentioning how much worse things are gonna get here for anyone who isn't a cishet white man.
Your thinking is no different than all the women who kept voting on the single issue of overturning Roe and are now shocked they have to carry dead fetuses to term or be charged with a crime.
You're just trying to get anti-Trump people to not vote so Trump can win. Anyone with half a brain knows that Joe Biden didn't do a genocide.
"My argument is simpler than my opponent's, therefore it is correct"
The point of examining the straightforward morals of not supporting genocide in opposition to the convoluted justifications people put forward as reasons to vote blue no matter who was not to say that the simplest reasoning is correct, but to shine some light on the assumptions, misunderstandings and vast overvaluation of an individuals voting impact that underpin that argument.
You have to build a fucking mind palace to not just look at the two major parties, say “no thanks, I’m a human being with a soul and heart that feels” and walk away. That’s the point.
I do not know how to tell you that not voting will not make neither candidate win.
At no point have I suggested that people abstain, although it’s better not to vote than to perpetuate either of the two major parties.
And how do you propose doing that?
Idk what you mean or are asking…
Not perpetuate either of the major parties. How do we do that, if not by abstaining?
The thing is, the game theorists aren't wrong. If you want to vote your feelings, that's your right. It's exactly what the ~1/3 of Trump supports are doing.
And much like them, you aren't even required to understand the consequences of your actions to do so! (Assuming you're privileged enough to never have to face them, of course)
For the game theorists to not be wrong, endorsing a genocide has to also not be wrong.
I’m voting for the people I most like on the ballot. Isn’t that what you’re supposed to do?
No, not in FPTP. You vote for the candidate who you least disagree with out of those with a reasonable chance of victory, or you waste your vote.
So… by voting my conscience I don’t get a vote? I was literally brought up with the idea that if enough people pressure one of the parties one way or the other they might start embracing your ideas. And that was supposed to be how this worked.
The time to advance your ideas is everywhen except the presidential election, basically. At this timing, voting your conscience will really only be contributing to the spoiler effect.
why on earth would any party listen to what you have to say if you preface everything you're campaigning for with "by the way, i'm still going to vote for you"
your vote is all they want in this scenario
it would be like opening a negotiation with "by the way, i'm absolutely going to pay whatever price you think is fair at the end of this, but i'd like you to consider giving me a discount anyway"
There are other elections, primaries, donations, and general social pressure. The sad part is you're right, committing to vote for the lesser evil every time does reduce pressure and influence. However, it's not a flaw in the voting strategy, it's a flaw in the voting system.
The alternative is to abstain or vote for someone with no chance, in which case you end up with the greater evil in office who has four years to inflict permanent damage on people and further corrupt the system. You may show the less-evil party that you don't agree with them and that they need to rethink some policies, but the point is moot if they aren't in power and now the greater evil can do things like appoint three SCOTUS justices, irreversibly damage the environment, and pass voting "reform" to lessen the impact of your future votes. Your message is sent, yes, but the overall impact is bad for everyone and reduces your future influence.
In a FPTP system, that's the sad reality we are given. There really is no better choice than to vote for the lesser evil in the presidential election. That's why ranked choice voting would be such a game changer, then you truly can vote for your favorite without helping your least favorite gain office.
You have more influence the smaller the election is, which is partly why it's so important to vote in every election, especially your local elections. Local elections also more directly impact your community and broad elections are impacted by them too! Nearly all higher-up politicians start local, and the larger parties look to local elections to see what gets people out to vote. Plus, if you hate all of your options in a local election, it's much more possible to run yourself and actually have a change at winning. You aren't just voting for candidates either, there's almost always projects, new laws, and funding allocations to vote for locally.
but those are both votes
ideally, yeah, if you wanted to exercise pressure on the biden administration, you wouldn't withhold your vote in this specific election, but those "other elections" have already passed
you could vote differently for the house and senate, but arguably that might actually lead to a worse outcome
if you're very rich, then maybe, but most people aren't
general social pressure means very little without votes to back it up
sanders has a tidal wave of social pressure behind him, but then lost the primary, so nothing changed
it's why every time a politician tries to campaign for young voters, they crash and burn, because while young voters often inflict the most social pressure, they never actually go and vote
the point isn't to vote for the person to get them into office
the point is to vote for the person whose policies you prefer, so that you shift the other candidates closer to that position
yeah, 4 years of a very bad candidate is worse than 4 years of a meh candidate, but if you vote that way forever your candidate will never be anything more than meh
if you think this outweighs the benefit of improving the democrat position going forward, and that's a perfectly reasonable position to have, then sure vote for them
but don't act like you never had any choice in the matter, or that voting for somebody else would be meaningless
I don’t have millions of dollars to advance my ideas, all I have is my vote. If they really want it they better buckle down and earn it.
I'm sorry, that is a ridiculous statement, but I'm not awake enough to go into it in detail. Hoping someone else can help if you were being sincere.
You were lied to. It should work that way but it doesn't, and that -really- sucks.
But now what do you do with that understanding? Do you continue to try and will the lie into being, or do you act according to the truth?
vote for the person you like the most
voting for the democrats come hell or high water is how you end up with two candidates nobody wants to vote for
FPTP stands for First Past The Post voting for anyone wondering what the acronym means.
In the primaries but not the general
I really don't see the point in voting when the executive and legislative branches are bought and paid for with candidates I don't approve of.
Bernie Sanders' constituents are incredibly fortunate. The candidates available for my districts oppose socialized medicine, returning stock market regulations (e.g. outlawing stock buybacks), and the 32 hour workweek mandate.
When I have someone I can vote for, then I'll vote. Otherwise fuck it, waste of my time.
Yo you kids can't behave, I will look this now, it's Easter and I don't want to have this burning here
I'm not okay with either of them having a second term right now.
you guys just dont want to get it do you?
i dont care about making you feel better with your right wing democrat. go actually do something about trump if you care so much.
But to be fair to some of us, who have voted for ~30 yrs of presidential elections, things are getting worse.
I worry what will happen if Trump wins or loses. If he wins, it will be terrible. If he loses, he will claim he won again and he will try another insurrection, but harder.
Yes, vote! The Green Party needs to get at least 5% to qualify for funding.
The Green Party and the Libertarian Party are how we got Trump the first time around. The stakes are too high.
That's a bit disingenuous, don't you think? Hillary won the popular vote, but herself was completely unwilling to concede to leftists, and as such she lost some of that vote.
Toeing the establishment line isn't a good thing, nor is blaming dissafected voters the right place to blame. Blame Hillary and the DNC for fighting against progressives instead of working with them.
Why blame the Green Party and the Libertarian Party for the DNC's failure? The DNC always says we have to vote for the lesser of two evils. The DNC always says next time we can get a better candidate.
The parties are the same. The Dems just pretend to be better. When real issues come around, they have the same policies.
Third party or bust.
Anyone who says "bust" is a viable option is showing their extreme privilege, imo.
If I am an American voting in the election I wouldn't have voted for either Hillary or Trump in 2016 but I will definitely vote for Biden then and now.
Hillary is full of baggage which is too many to ignore. Trump, in my view at the time, isn't a fascist but a fascist-adjacent and I thought his presence sets a dangerous precedence. After the first four years, that proved correct. He became drunk with power and became a full blown fascist.
Biden definitely is a better choice in any elections against Trump. He has less baggage and still did surprisingly well that is favourable with the left.
I've still never seen or heard of any leftists who won't vote in the generals. It's like ya'll are screaming fire because you saw the mist which was the noncommitted votes in the DNC Primary.
Not voting is not a statement that either or is okay. Not voting sends a clear signal that you don't want voting rights, you don't believe in people having voices in how they are ruled.
Well, it's fine as long as you're not voting for one of the genocidal candidates.
No.
I understand their frustrations given how Biden was brazenly treating Israel until lately (almost like he realized there was an election going on).
If i’m being realistic with myself the reason I won’t vote is because it’s futile. The USA like to give you the illusion of choice and “Democracy” while at the same time having the most undemocratic two-party system any civilized nation can have. Going through the process of voting for either a genocider or a fascist is a waste of my time, and that time can be spent playing another game of league or whatever, at least I’ll have some fun. America won’t change because of my vote, or any of your votes. America will change because of coordinated, collective action from unions and when people decide to eat the rich.
And i’d even argue that refusing to vote IS democratic and not necessarily evil. Biden committed a genocide, he needs to feel the consequences of a disinterested and conflicted democratic base.
I think we should stop rationalizing and proselytizing the act of voting. Choosing to vote for red, green or blue, or not choosing to vote at all, is a personal decision. Rationalizing it won’t do anyone any favors, and demonizing people that don’t vote or don’t vote for your personal candidate because it doesn’t fit in your ideology just makes you a bigot.
So what is “holding his feet to the fire” supposed to mean then
Who to vote for. Tweedledum or Tweedledee?
If the Democrats want left-wing votes they should appeal to left-wing voters rather than just take them for granted. The reality is that there's little difference between Biden and Trump. Just two sides of the same old corporatist coin.
So! Much!! This!!!
I agree with you but can we please leave "This!" behind us?
Point taken. Reddit habits die hard.
Hard pass there, votes are earned, and Biden has given us thousands of reasons why we shouldnt vote for him and none as to why.
I hope the closer we get to the election the miss obvious this becomes to everybody.
I refuse to make a choice between trash, garbage and shit. /S
P.s.: we need a hard reset of everything
God this namey, cookie-cutter teenage bullshit.
Go tell Biden to stop doing Genocide instead of trying to blackmail people into voting for Genocide.
Disgusting Genocide enablers.
Ok...so after we've all voted and Trump emerges from the dust of apathy over who's the oldest bitterest man in America ...what then?
I'll be voting for Kennedy.
Genocide Joe has done everything israel wanted to aid their Genocide so far. Aside from lip service no real action has been taken against israel.
Bidens administration just openly said they believe israel isn't committing war crimes after starving an entire population. And israel just announced a huge annexation of the west bank. And Biden secretly gave israel every single weapon they needed, and now refunded them their free Genocide money.
Trump cannot be worse than Biden if Biden already does everything israel wants.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/donald-trump-urges-israel-to-finish-it-up-and-end-war-against-hamas-in-gaza/ar-BB1kyZr4
Trump is not going to stop doing everything Israel tells him. He is, however, going to make sweeping policy changes here that will make every transgender and/or gay person here in America wish they'd never been born.
How incredibly privileged do you have to be to see this entire election through the lens of what will happen to Gazans, and further, to not realize that Trump and Biden want the exact same thing?
How privileged that you're willing to endorse Genocide brown people rather than trying to get a third party candidate to win. And then use gay people as a shield to defend Genocide. Absolutely disgusting.
After Biden wins in 2024 you're going to tell people to "vote dem again or it all ends" in 2028. And again in 2032. And again and again.
Genocide is the line people with any morals will not cross. Go tell the Blue Fascist that he stops the Genocide or he will 100% lose.
Did you read my original post?
Trying to do mental gymnastics on the definition on what you are voting for. Can't even defend it anymore so we're just reaching Republican logic of "Yeah but he's not the blue guy just vote for Trump".
By voting for Biden you are directly endorsing Genocide and you are part of the problem. If everyone stopped using your logic we would easily have a third party win already.
What part of this aren't you getting
I'm not saying we have to support Biden because he's blue and Trump is red. I'm saying we have to support Biden because Trump wants to make being trans illegal and thinks global warming is fake, and Biden doesn't.
And Biden is complicit in Genocide which is far far worse than any of the things you mentioned.
And the other things will happen anyway if you vote Biden. Albeit 4 year later when Biden shifts the country even further right.
DO YOU THINK TRUMP WON'T BE???????? Do you think he will not jump at the chance to give aid to America's allies?