The US auto industry is absolutely to blame for pushing gigantic gas guzzlers on people. But the people who buy those monstrosities and get hugely into debt to do it are very much to blame too.
DOT is in charge of CAFE regulations. The original law specified standards that were for "passenger vehicles" and "automobiles which are not passenger automobiles".
DOT interpreted that as trucks, which made sense back then. Unfortunately, every manufacturer just declared their cars to be trucks (invention of the SUV) and the DOT let them.
Then they made it worse by scaling fuel economy to vehicle size, so manufactures just made cars have a larger footprint to be allowed to have worse fuel economy.
They passed a fuel economy law that had to do with vehicle weight, auto industry response was make bigger heavier vehicles to get around new fuel economy requirements. That's the reason all of the reasonably sized personal trucks got massive like 15 years ago.
I've seen quite a few videos about "rolling negative equity" and didn't even know it was a thing. Also, you hear someone threatening the car dealer for suggesting they buy a car for ONLY $20K when he's never been seen something in less than a beamer and being in debt so they have to take a loan for the down payment (which doesn't even make sense to me)... I hope these videos are fake 😢
The first time I heard about rolling negative equity I gasped audibly.
Cars are a depreciating asset unless they’re very rare. They’re always going to have negative equity. This is financial flim-flammery disguised with fancy corpo words.
Negative equity just means you owe more on something than it's worth. So whether you have negative equity on a car loan is a "it depends". On a new car, probably yes because of the big deprecation hit as soon as the car is driven off the lot, but on a car where the loan is almost paid off probably not.
I did not ask for even more interesting times, but the car loans and car insurance industries have some pretty interesting interactions with rising oil prices and climate change.
Definitely look for that. I had a Rabbit before so the Alltrack was a tempting next step, but was able to get a new 2021 Crosstrek with a manual. It's somewhere between a lifted hatch and a wagon. Managed to fit some 8ft 2x2s in there so I'd say it's pretty functional.
I don't really like that I'm paying $15-20 more a tank than I did a couple years ago, but I have no sympathy for the price of diesel and the guys with dumb ass monster trucks.
The issue with shipping is that it could have been partially avoided with more reliance on rail and less on long-haul trucking, but that's a choice that was inflicted on us rather than one we made ourselves.
Unfortunately freight rail often uses diesel as well. It is more efficient of course pound for pound, but the cost is still felt. Even nations with better rail are feeling the price because of this
Yeah, but electrifying rail didn't require technological innovation the way batteries capable of long-haul trucking did. We could've had electric rail freight decades ago if the political will had been there.
We did, check out the Milwaukee Road Pacific Extension. About 2/3rds of the rail line between Chicago and Seattle was electrified from roughly the 30’s until the 70’s. It was slated to be closed down in 1973 and the oil crisis gave it another year or so.
It was always profitable, but the Milwaukee Road execs didn’t understand it, and didn’t like that it was different from the rest of the network using diesel. Real disappointing stuff.
a nice side effect of diesel prices on shipping is that I'm seeing a lot more electric delivery trucks on the road, it's gonna suck for long haul, but maybe that will move to rail.
I like this sentiment the most. I worked in the oil and gas industry for a long time. (Ethically opposed the entire time, but thats not my point here.) And drove a subaru, worked with guy that drove a prius. Lots of Honda and Toyota sedans... the people doing the "manly" work aren't even driving big personal vehicles because there is nothing to prove.
This is a funny part about being a carpenter. The new carpenters buy huge trucks to try and impress people. Meanwhile my boss who has been doing this for decades drives a Honda Civic to work lol
The poor person about to spend $100k+ on a truck, tearfully signing the papers at the dealership: sniffle And could you do that thing where you raise the truck up a few more feet and put monster truck wheels on it? I can’t believe you are making me do this.
lol This is exactly how some people picture it. Poor Americans. In hypercapitalist America, consumers just have no agency at all. Maybe your culture really is gullible and stupid?
Not sure why you're being downvoted, but judging by the replies it seems like everyone is assuming that by "people have no choice but to buy a personally-owned vehicle" you must have meant "people have no choice but to buy a giant gas-guzzling truck."
It's a crazy leap and a strawman and precisely the kind of lack of nuance that makes it all but impossible to have intelligent discussions about issues that matter. But then again, this is the internet...
I was specifically talking about gigantic gas guzzlers in my original comment. Not even in the US do all cars fall into that category. People do have choices and they choose the monstrosities. I was not in any way trying to blame people for owning a car.
Okay I get it, I was reading the comment in light of the post which talked about "mandatory expensive vehicle in order to be employable because we abandoned trains."
Like, you're right, nobody needs those giant trucks.
But also, even relying on smaller, more efficient POVs as a society is still a bad thing, and being required to buy something in that category is still an injustice that individual people don't have much agency in, at least if they want to be able to get a job without uprooting their lives (and usually living somewhere more expensive in order to have pedestrian access to public transit)
Yeah I mean I'm down with making fun of truck owners. Just not with blaming individual drivers for systemic urban planning issues that were deliberately ratfucked by industry to begin with
I mean, given the comment the reply is to it's not a crazy leap in logic or strawman considering the comment itself specifically was talking about gas guzzling vehicles and not having sympathy for people who bought them.
Perhaps as a reply to the original post it would be read differently but the context it's in makes it so it reads the way it does.
Ah, yeah, I read it as if it were a top-level comment. I see the connection now.
I'll still give her the benefit of the doubt and say she likely meant it in the broader sense, because her takes are usually fairly reasonable.
But yeah, the giant trucks are unnecessary in probably 98% of cases. Honestly even in the 2% where one is needed, a smaller one will do. But those are harder to find these days.
The problem of compulsory POV ownership more broadly though is systemic in the US, and people trapped in that situation don't really have an alternative option.
I have owned a car for 30 years, and never got close to $50,000. I once made the poor decision to buy a brand new $19,000 VW in 2009, never again. Only suckers buy new cars.
I had to get something to pull a small trailer (like 2,900 dry weight). The literal cheapest option in 2023 was a Jeep Grand Cherokee and it was 44k sticker. I wish I could find an older pickup but people realize what they have and are charging so damn much for them.
I know the used market can vary by region, but if you live in the US I find it hard to image not being able to find a running 90s f-150/250 for under 5k, or a mint condition one for under 10k
If I could buy a 90's F250 for that price I wouldn't have just purchased my 2011. It took me six weeks of 4+ hours a day of searching to find a truck that wasn't silly. The car market is bad, the truck market is worse and if you live in the Midwest you get a price bump too.
Been searching since I had to get that Jeep, most of them in my state (Georgia) are insanely priced because everyone is searching for them. It's probably just the rural nature of this state though.
I managed to find an '01 Tahoe before the pandemic, but my son adopted it as his first car.
What I'm reading there is that there's going to be a 2008-style Crash (this time on auto debt instead of realestate) alongside a 2000-style Crash (this time on Generative AI instead of a Net bubble).
Mind you, it will be centered in the US and other countries will mainly feel side effects.
2008-style Crash (this time on auto debt instead of realestate)
The 2008 crash was also an auto debt crash. That's why you had Cash-For-Clunkers rolled out in 2009 followed by Obama and Romney arguing over an automotive bailout in the 2012 election.
Combine that with a crash of the USD itself. Also commercial and industrial real estate never got the same protections as home loans post-2008 so there's a shit ton of 2008 style shenanigans concerning offices and industrial plots ready to also blow up.
There's no more road to kick our can down. We must face the can. The can is our reckoning.
Well, the supposedly "temporary" ultra-low interest rates that were the "solution" for the Crisis following the 2008 Crash only really postponned the day of reckonning.
Further, those and other government measures rewarding Asset Owners (read: the rich) on the backs of those whose Income comes from Work, caused inequality to explode, which means more "unused money" around (every additional €1 of income for the wealthy goes almost entirelly into savings, every additional €1 if income for the poor and working class goes almost entirelly into consumption) and all that extra money was seeking investments, any investments, which was visible in the markets by lower interest rates on treasuries (for example, the famous negative German bund interest rates), lower bond yields (meaning higher prices for the same level of risk), higher stocks and so on up the risk scale, a pumping up of lots and lots of extra investment money which ultimatelly inflated several bubbles at the same time.
Further, the ultra-low interest rates also made it cheaper to leverage one's investments (i.e. invest with loaned money alongside one's own money), further adding money to those bubbles given the way money is created in the modern monetary system (mainly created by banks when they give loans, with only a small percentage actually created by central banks).
This, by the way, also explains things like the crypto bubble.
I really only mentioned the biggest ones I'm aware off, but I bet we'll have a lot of bubbles of all sizes exploding as soon as the first big bubble blows and causes a credit crunch and investment retraction.
A crash into what alternative? If people are trading away their USDs, what are they trading them for?
There’s no more road to kick our can down.
I've been hearing people say this since Reagan. "This is the end of the road! The End of History, even!"
But what's the alternative? Does the US just pop out of existence? Do all those creditors take a massive inflationary haircut on their outstanding loans? Does the US suddenly shift to an export economy to get... Japanese Yen? Russian Rubbles? Mexican Pesos? Nigerian gold bars?
A crash into what alternative? If people are trading away their USDs, what are they trading them for?
Why does there have to be an alternative for the USD to implode? Why would a lack of an alternative sustain an unsustainable system which appears to be cracking under it's own weight right now? The US govt being forced to issue debt at unsustainable interest rates is the only cause of death you need if people don't think they'll get their money back. They will figure out an alternative in that situation.
USD's supremacy isn't just from being the "safest" asset you can hold but also that you need it to buy energy from the middle east, since they agreed to only trade in USD in exchange for US military protection. Also because everybody else uses it. I doubt BRICS will be the alternative though, even if it is a half hearted attempt to get around SWIFT and USD.
And right now it seems to be gold. China has been dumping US treasuries since 2020 and moving heavily into Gold. France did the same. Althought thats not a viable alternative... there simply isn't enough Gold. In an ideal world we would move towards a Keynsian basket of goods as the international unit of exchange instead of a domestic currency but we'll probably pick the dumbest, least painful in the short term, most painful and debilitating in the long term answer... nobody plants trees anymore.
Why does there have to be an alternative for the USD to implode?
Because value is relative. In order for the value of the USD to fall, the exchange rate has to rise. And that implies people are trading a surplus of USD for another thing.
The same goods and services but massively increasing amounts of USD diluting its own value because interest rates are so high for US treasuries they enter a death spiral borrowing more (printing) to pay for the borrowing they already did, especially as debt rolls over from 1-2% to 5%+?
It's not looking good... there's no debate that the debt is growing faster than the US economy. Trump blew up the tacit deal requiring USD for energy. Now UAE and others are willing to trade oil in chinese yuan or rubles. Their security agreements with the US apparently weren't worth the paper they were printed on considering the US did the exact opposite of what they promised to those OPEC nations, in fact they actively caused this dumb war with Iran that's destroying plants and infrastructure in the gulf. Thats worse than reneging on your security promises...
Do you think the USD is headed in a positive direction? What do you think is going to happen?
Lets stay on the topic of your original gripe with my comment, which implied that without an alternative the USD system can't collapse, and you've heard these complaints since the 80s. Why do you think that is? Why can the USD system only fail in one way? You never addressed that besides going "nu uh"
Who has a super abundance of USD that wants to purchase such enormous volumes of consumer goods
Historically that would be the US itself since they hollowed out domestic industry since they could import everything with their exorbitant priviledge. What would stop them from printing even more to keep doing that if it's also the expedient answer? Which is also the core of my whole point here... they're cutting down the trees planted for them by prior generations and we're at the can now.
Overall it seems to me that you're arguing swans can only be white as all swans are white, and there's no evidence of black swans existing. You don't make an alternative to the USD if the USD is working well... I think you have it backwards. An alternative will be made to get around the USD whicj will kill it. Not because of the alternative existing but because the USD failed in it's promises to those that use it. But thats not the only way it fails...
Besides, any time a reserve currency has been replaced historically there usually isn't anything waiting to take up the role right away. It develops after the global trade currency devalues so much it stops being useful for international trade. The pound failed progressively over decades and was replaced with domestic forex temporarily until Bretton Woods solidified the USD as the replacement post WWII.
But I would not quote "Unusual Whales" for economic advise. This is an AI account that posts "hot tips" for attention.
The deliquency rate for auto loans has been in headlines since at least March. This is a big show slow ship and it's bait to assume some AI account is going to tell you the day it goes down.
Someone not paying attention screenshotting a quote of a quote is not AI being good enough to evade detection, it's someone not bothering to check if it's AI.
And now the local wants to have to commuting tax.. Y'all better dig up the pavement and put those trolleys back in service. If I'm going to have to take transit it better be free of traffic
When I was in Almaty, Kazakhstan, they had disused trolly rails laid in the median during the USSR. And right next to them, chinese trolly buses with 2 pantagraphs.
Presumably this tells us its cheaper or faster or more politically feasible to steal the parking lane and build 2 pantagraphs on either side of the road and use rubber-tired, electric-overhead buses than to refurbish existing track in unused RoW and build 1 pantagraph.
I get super peeved that just 80 years ago we had the best transit options in the world then these diesel powered effigies roll up.. Like why bother at this point? Now buses barely go to Saratoga.
These threads are always full of people saying, "why don't you just..." The problem is you are suggesting coping methods for a plethora of problems, in a vacuum individually. You're failing to put all of the problems of cars, trucks, and their requisite infrastructure together as the awful, smothering whole that it is.
To the extent that we need cars (since our infrastructure would take years to change even if there was the political will to do it) we need to start copying the Cubans and learn to keep old cars on the road longer. Bonus: they don't spy on you like new cars do.
I have a short fun drive to work, enjoy it as a way to clear my head, and I even had a manual transmission WRX a long time ago. I have been checking up on the current models and there are some pretty good looking options whether manual + AWD or maybe a dual clutch setup, etc.
But right now I'm driving a basic car that we bought new like 14 years ago. It still looks good, it's fun to drive (the automatic is shiftable and has lockup clutches while in gear), and it seems mechanically sound with very low miles for the age.
Just the other day I made a conscious decision to stop reading and watching car reviews, and I have been getting back into working on my own car. I have some supplies on the way to change some fluids and shine up the exterior.
Having a fun car helps the drive as long as there’s not too much traffic. I almost don’t mind driving my kid to school (because there’s not enough buses) because my GTI is fun.
Yeah, and that is one of the big intangible benefits of my current job. I do a lot of work in-office even though I'm a software guy, and my "commute" is a 6 or 7 minute drive where the middle two miles is a twisty and hilly country road with very few houses on it. And, if the weather is really really bad, there is a slightly shorter alternate route through a much more populated area but it is perfectly flat roads the whole way.
A GTI would be an absolute blast. Does it have the DSG and if so, how do you like it?
My car is an old Mazda3 from when they first introduced their "Skyactiv" branded tech. The 6-speed auto transmission doesn't quickly snap through shifts like I imagine a dual clutch would, but since keeps the lockup clutch pack engaged as often as possible, when in gear it kind of feels like a manual. I can do the whole twisty road stretch of my commute in 3rd gear and have a pretty fun time hovering between 3k and 5k RPM.
The engine is a 2.0L 155hp, and every time I drive to or from work I think to myself that if I got a new "fun" car it would have roughly double the power and only be a few hundred pounds heavier (unless I went for an MX-5 or a BRZ/GR86 instead of a sedan). I would like it, sure, but the car I am currently sitting in is great fun and it is FREE versus $20K-$40K.
Mine has a manual but I owned one a while back with a DSG. Shifts are basically instant and it’s quicker than a stick, I just like feeling like a race car driver
What they need to do is go back to interchangeable parts and stop letting manufacturers make so many fucking different pieces that do the same shit. A car is a simple machine, stop adding gizmos and all kinda of shit to it to clog it down and bog the cost
'90s diesels can arguably be less polluting than modern "clean" diesels, depending on which pollutants you care about and if you're running bio-diesel instead of dino-diesel. (Old diesels can run B100, which is carbon-neutral and emits zero SOx, but it'll destroy the high-pressure fuel pump on a modern common-rail diesel.)
For simple(r) car designs, I anticipate that 3d scanning, 3d printing, and even mail order custom parts/manufacturing are going to be indespensible once available parts dry up. Until then, there's no end in sight for replacement Corolla parts.
I've spent only 9,000 so far on purchasing cars in my life. You do not need to spend 50k. I find the cheapest, most gas efficient beaten down used cars I can and ride them until I can't anymore.
People really fall into wanting a "nice" car, but if you treat it as a tool to take you from point A to point B and not a status symbol then you can actually find half affordable cars.
I'd love not to have a car, but public transit is nonexistent in my area. If I attempted to bike I would either get ran over or some asshole in a lifted truck would roll coal on me for fun
I've been driving for 9 years and one car was totaled in an accident otherwise I'd still have it.
So if we got technical and I count the insurance payout that reimbursed the first car I've spent 4,000 on purchasing cars. Second car was cheaper than the insurance payout.
My current car is from 2007, I've had it for 6 years. So far it's only had 1 major repair that costed about 1,000. Otherwise just the normal maintenance at appropriate intervals. It's sub-compact so the tires are small and quite cheap and it holds less oil than a standard sedan. When I do the oil changes myself this also saves me some money.
I expect the car to last at least 1-2 more years at least. At that point I either have to start pouring money into it or buy another.
I've been driving for 9 years and one car was totaled in an accident otherwise I'd still have it.
Yeah, that sounds 'bout right: short enough that you can still have an artificially-rosy impression based on luck that nothing major has broken yet, especially since the collision replacement reset the clock. For all you know, that car might've been destined to blow its engine the day after it was totaled.
I've been driving for over two decades, and even owning almost entirely old cars (with only one exception, and that was one I didn't pay for), I've spent much more than $9K on them. And that's despite both doing most of my own maintenance and being willing to just accept flaws that other people would pay to fix or scrap the car over.
I'm not saying it's a bad strategy, for those who must own a car. I'm just saying that even the optimal strategy still adds up eventually.
For all you know, that car might've been destined to blow its engine the day after it was totaled.
I 100% know that would not have have happened. I'm not a mechanic, but I know enough to assure you that is not the case.
Even still if it did die the next day that would be back to the 9k.
And I wouldn't call it pure luck, I did a ton of research and shopped around for a couple weeks before I found something acceptable. It's held up as expected
I 100% know that would not have have happened. I’m not a mechanic, but I know enough to assure you that is not the case.
I would also swear up and down that each of my old cars was reliable, until suddenly it was not.
I say that not to scare or discourage anybody from owning an old car instead of a new one, but just to have realistic expectations. And maybe encourage people to have a good roadside assistance policy.
The car that got totaled was in great condition and had absolutely no issues.
The car I'm driving today sure that one could go tomorrow or in a couple of years.
Cars definitely give you signs they are getting ready to give out. You just have to recognize them. Sometimes they are subtle and it can definitely be a waiting game, but once the signs appear it can be tomorrow or 2 years.
I haven't owned many cars personally, but my family has only ever driven clunkers. You learn the signs and which ones are worth the gamble to ignore.
wait so you paid x for car1 and got a y payout and paid z for the second car and your saying x+z-y is -$1000 because that is what im reading. Are you sure you did not come out 1k ahead on car one and then car2 cost that and more?
The payout on car 1 was 5k and the cost of car 2 was 4k.
The economy was doing weird shit to the used car market when I got the first car and it held it's value quite well.
I don't remember the exact numbers anymore and I know I'm rounding so maybe it's closer to -800, but I do remember coming out nicely ahead with the insurance payout.
ok I don't understand your negative numbers here. you paid 5000 and the insurance gave you 5000 back and then you paid 4000. So you paid 4000 in car buying. then you spent another grand in repairs. so cars have cost you 5k not counting gas and insurance and such. Don't get me wrong that is really cheap but its just confusing when you list negative numbers suggesting you have gotten more than you have paid for cars in your lifetime.
that market just doesn't exist anymore in my province, especially with the more thorough safety inspection standards.
they'll let you have lowbeam headlights so bright that they'll make a pedestrian in a crosswalk entirely invisible to oncoming traffic at a four way stop, but oh hell no you can't have a tiny rust hole that could cut somebody if they walked up and stuck their finger into it and wiggled it around.
the cheapest cars that will pass safety in my area will run you at least $3000, at absolute bare minimum, and you've still got $500 in tax and licensing, plus $500 for used tires soon enough. and then the maintenance for brakes and worn/broken suspension parts... rust is a killer up here. I wish they'd stop salting the roads
Honestly its possible to just keep a car going forever if you get the right one. Get someone with a reliable track record and just make sure to spray down the frame so it doesn't rust, keep up with maintenence, and you can drive it for 50 years. Even the big stuff that comes up (like rebuilding a trans) is cheaper than buying a new car.
I've taught car maintenance and repair to single soldiers for almost two decades. The issue with the Internet's default to buy used is unless you can repair it yourself or have someone that can work on your car cheaply it might not be the best call.
Oh and as someone who worked as the guy who told you all the stuff that needed to be done at a shady dealership, they will definitely recommend whatever they can. And then its $180 and hour for labor and its .5 hours of labor to change an air filter. I couldn't cut it in that world...
For soldiers? So Dodge chargers and Ford mustangs? Ya those will fall apart after a couple years. There are plenty of reliable brands, most of which are not American or European.
A lot of people choose a car even when it is just worse.
My bike ride to work is 8km and takes 20-25 mins. Yet I know people who live and work near me who drive the same route which takes almost twice as long mostly sat in traffic. They spend more on their car than I do on my mortgage and that is before maintenance, insurance, oh and fuel too because despite choosing such an expensive car and never driving over 10km, oh yeah gotta go for ICE.
Suppose at least with such short distances driven that fuel lasts a while. Doesn't stop them moaning about it though. I should start responding with the cost of Cornish pasties to power my bike.
This was kinda the reason I went back to cycling to work when I lived in London (I had lived in The Netherlands before and there it was pretty normal to do so) - it turns out that it was faster to just cycle through half of Zones 1 and 2 than to walk to an catch the tube (at least London actually has a subway, by car it would've been even worse because of traffic, not to mention parking).
This was back when cycling facilities there were a bit of a joke and there were but a few people doing the same as I did.
Further, even though I was doing it in a big city (so air polution was a consideration), my health actually improved from it (more so when I discovered a site with a polution map of London and switched to a route that minimized time in big avenues with lots of traffic and polution).
I would if i could. I hate driving, but I would get killed if i biked to work. Hell, I'd possibly die just trying to get to the nearest grocery store. I need a bike lane.
Used to cycle a lot, first in The Netherlands, later in London (Britain), but where I am now (Portugal) it's very dangerous because drivers here are in my experience some of the worst in Europe (let's just say that, for example, most won't signal their intention to change direction when turning right, which is very dangerous for cyclists), but in a way I'm in a priviledged position, so I chose to live in a small city close where I work, so I just walk to work (about 15 minutes each way) which even has the upside that I'm guaranteed my 30m+ exercise each day, which a study some years ago showed decreases the risk of cardio-vascular problems by 70%.
So a jacked up truck trying to go 80 behind me is bearing down on me, swearing and flailing their arms around? I have no problems with this in quiet residential streets, but bikes just are not compatible with most North American roads. They're too slow to play with cars, they're too fast for sidewalks and pedestrians, and too useful and fun to ignore, so bike lanes are the best answer we have.
Eisenhower interstate system in the US was the start of the downfall. It's a very cool system, but it cost us the trains. I dont know that it can be justified. I like driving and having the freedom to do so, but I would also like to not have to: plus there are a shit load more people who directly suffer because they simply can not drive.
I hope the next wave of logistical genius incorporates more mass public transit, while still supporting some highway network.
Hub style, like airport parking esque, but for bullet trains and light rail. New building would need to require parking as part of the footprint (incorporated decks) to save on space that can be used for public benefit.
Easy to expand on, the counter argument is always "but the cost?!" Like wtf do you think a highway costs per foot? The answer is up to $2,000 per god damn foot. You can buy a lot with that.
Honestly they just need to make car parking a real constraint in sim city games. That would do more to show people what a blight cars are than anything else.
Sounds like a lot of people were convinced to borrow way more than they could afford for a status symbol no one should care about. Financial literacy should be taught in middle school.
I have 20k in debt just buying a Toyota corolla. I think there is a lot of people who bought status symbols, but there are a lot of people who just need a car that isn't going to break. If I bought used and something happens that would cost me 5k, which can easily happen, Im screwed. I dont know what the answer is. A few years ago, I had a job two blocks away, now I have a job 50 min away. I have to get there somehow and its not like my job is going to be ok with me saying "I need a week off because my car broke"
Yes, there should be accounting and financial classes in middle/high school. However, then the (predatory) loan industry would have less prey. They "love the poorly educated."
The car I bought new in 2017 just ticked over 100k miles. I estimate I've spent $50k over these 9+ years on car payments, interest, gasoline, maintenance/wear items, mods, and insurance for something that is parked for 95+% of the time. Ride share cannot beat $0.50/mile yet, I'm hoping my current car can last until it does.
Nah. Cars are a tool that can be good or bad depending on how they are used. Prioritizing car infrastructure over any other form is what's bad.
I should be able to enjoy my daily life without a car. But being able to rent a car so I can go to the middle of nowhere on short notice is pretty great.
Having a single car requires car infrastructure which requires overproduction. The only reason we "need" cars today is that we have decided that society should revolve around it. We should strive to dismantle car infrastructure.
Your position is no less extreme and absurd than our current reality of using cars for everything. We would liberate ourselves of virtually all of the negative impacts of private car dominance well before we got to the point of banning ALL cars. Going that extra mile just for ideological purity would be self defeating and require authoritarian governance to pull off.
Well sure, it can just be left to fall apart instead, but the infrastructure to support any number of cars still requires masses of maintenance. You can have some kind of ATV to go off on adventures in, but we're not wasting resources on stuff like filling potholes or service stations.
What I think would be practical is not pitching a goddamn foot-stomping, screaming, NIMBY hissy fit every time your city wants to offer transportation options that are anything other than another lane for cars. But I'm apparently in the minority in the US.
PSA: if you have immigrant parents or grand parents you might qualify for citizenship in their countries of origin. Of course, this won’t apply to, nor help most people. In the cases where it does apply, you may need thousands of dollars for acquiring documentation and for application fees. I’m not in any way diminishing the luck or privilege needed to have a chance for a visa in a desireable country nor the resources and work needed to relocate.
Thanks I already talked to immigration lawyers for the country my mom was born in and don't qualify. It's impossible for me to get out unless I win the lottery to buy my way out. This country is a prison.
It's not trivial to leave. Finding work is hard. Housing is hard, especially if you're not physically there to look at places. Getting permanent status is difficult. For many people in the US, they only speak English. Maybe Spanish. So that's limiting.
Honestly name a single country that’s better than the US that takes in immigrants from totally normal countries without a specific degree or sponson from a company. You’re already living in the best country just not at a good time. Open your eyes.
The US barely takes in immigrants with degrees, I know 2 Filipino nurses who literally spent years waiting on a visa and eventually gave up and went to Germany and Abu Dabi.
"The best country" my ass. It's pretty good if you're a white dude but not better than Canada or New Zealand or Sweden (not exhaustive). And in many ways it's trending in the wrong direction.
Those are your only qualifications? And you're not worried about it being an obvious Russian puppet state with openly rigged elections? Or that they've been unwelcome in the Council of Europe for like thirty years because of the unabashed authoritarianism and human rights abuses?
I agree on the sponsorship part. Unless you're willing to take a hit on your standard of living, immigration within STEM or an information economy field requires moving somewhere that will employ you first. It's not impossible, but I imagine there's quite a lot of competition these days.
Unless you’re willing to take a hit on your standard of living,
I would argue that the "hit on your standard of living" is more perceived than real (e.g. considering an urban apartment lifestyle "lesser" than a suburban single-family house one even though it's actually better). However, I'd agree that immigrating is just flat-out difficult even without considering that aspect of it.
While I agree that buying used is the more prudent option, I don't think we should be distracted from the fact that there are new base model cars close to the 50k range, which is ridiculous
For less than $25k you can buy a new Nissan Sentra, Hyundai Elantra, Toyota Corolla, Volkswagen Jetta, Mazda 3, or a Subaru Impreza. I'm sure there are others.
People just don't seem that interested in buying cars anymore and consumers seem much more interested in projecting status
Nissan Sentra cost us 27k including the tax and interests. The marked price was 21k. That was 3 years ago. Made us feel very poor because we couldn't just pay for it, and had to pay more overall for not having that money outright. We didn't have any other debts.
So I don't think people with other debts can afford a car outright either, so end up paying more. Rich people can avoid all that. Or they can take that loan, make more money from the money they already have (higher returns than loan interest rate), and avoid taxes on loan money, and get richer
Indeed, the boots theory of poverty. So many things are cheaper even in absolute terms if you have enough money to get things cheaper or get better things for not much more money that will way outlast the cheap stuff. Also people are more excited to just give you money when you have money (higher interest rate, even for very safe savings accounts).
Oh, I am certainly not advocating for buying new. I'm just trying to say that cheaper options are out there, even if consumers aren't interested in them. It blows my mind that average transaction prices are north of $50k while everyone is seemingly broke.
People can't afford to own a car, that's why. It's not just public transportation infrastructure being fucked.
People can't find used cars because everyone wants a car that'll last a long time but then the job market is shit and people get high aprs and then ruin their credit, it's a lot of shit to get a car but people fuck themselves so hard buying one because they don't know how to navigate the financial aspect. ..... That's at least how I see it.
You also gotta make compromises with what you want vs what you can afford.
Too many people with bad credit bitch about high aprs that lock them down. I feel like if we had a better understanding of the financial demographics they're basing the research off of, we'd know who's not driving because they can't afford it vs lack of infrastructure by state.
The cheap used car market today was largely killed by cash for clunkers. Intentionally seized (literally, destroying perfectly running vehicles) engines to get them off the road. Near a quarter million perfectly running driving cars were intentionally destroyed. That had a short term affect on used car market sure, but more so it fucked people in this particular time for GOOD and CHEAPPP cars. I remember beating the shit out of 500$ bmws the night I got them off craigslist now I cant get a fucking civic for 3 grand that doesn't need another 2 in repairs
Well once there's a glut of cars they'll either shoot the price down and tell nobody, rich private sellers will scalp the cheap glut or they'll pull 👇
Intentionally seized (literally, destroying perfectly running vehicles) engines to get them off the road. Near a quarter million perfectly running driving cars were intentionally destroyed.
again and then we can all start complaining about public transportation twice as hard, with no results on our end but more profits on theirs......
Edit: holy shit they'll destroy the for insurance money if they're able to or they'll sell them back to their manufacturers and lose contracts potentially going out of business but it's more like the glut not being advertised is where it gets fucked and we need to put limits on how many vehicles someone can own. Rich people buying cars and selling them at scalping prices happens.
It's frivolous when you're buying a car to buy a car. When you're pissing away money just to do it. When you need a car for life purposes, it's not frivolous.
You can absolutely tell someone to fuck off if they don't like you for how much you spend on a vehicle. 😏 Anyone can.
But I don't want AI tokens.. Then again, if everyone else gets addicted to it, fuck me my life is going to be so easy in comparison. Another expense I won't have!
Already don't have a car which saves so much I can buy a house and have more money left over than some car owners I know. Wtf do I spend the AI token savings on? There isn't really anything I want. Maybe start a crack addiction? Not sure if its as addictive as Factorio though.
Dystopian novel: Workers compete for jobs, the only way to outwork the masses is to use AI, companies no longer buy* tokens and people have to BYOT, not far off the rideshare gig economy BYOC
Setting up and maintaining a few racks of graphics cards and network stuff for myself and some friends/customers in some cold place would be a great job for me. If it wasn't promoting something completely useless beyond tricking people into handing over their money that should crash the moment people realize this, I would have been one of the bitcoin miners since like 2006.
About 2.2% to 3.7% p.a., depend on bank. More often than not people will take the 7 years, but nowadays car is getting more and more pricier and people also trying to project their standard of living more, so 9 years is getting more and more common. 5 years is always rare.
Last time I considered buying a new car (in 2019), it turned out that the payment amount if financed over a reasonable number of years was going to be damn close to what I pay for my mortgage! That's partially because my house was cheap when I bought it (not so much, now), but it's also because new cars are ridiculously expensive these days, above and beyond normal inflation.
(I didn't go through with the purchase for other reasons, BTW. Namely, that Toyota was unable to find me a truck with a manual transmission and the other options I wanted, down to the color. If I'm buying a new car it should be exactly what I want, damn it!)
I need a job from about 6am to 2pm, monday-friday.
I need a car to find this magical work schedule job.
I dont have anything.
My mental health, is not well. It makes me really upset, I am actually trapped at home. I cannot walk anywhere. I cannot bike anywhere.
Im really not doing well, and im tired of playing fucking housewife. I want to work. Literally cannot even attempt to, because I live in car centric hell. And who the fuck has the schedule I must have? no one. bloody no one. Im stressed. Its bad. Idk what to do honestly.
Im so tired of every other vehicle being this giant metal heap of shit, and im tired of the people in em.
Used car market is kinda insane right now, even worse for trucks.
It's bad enough it's affecting bikes, but you can still get reliable used bikes for 2-5K.
Ultimately the used car market depends on people paying 50K for cars, the more people buy less reliable/cheaper or used cars, the more expensive it gets.
Motorbikes, I got my new commuter-style bicycle in the US for 600 USD in 2019, the same bike goes for 700 USD now. But you can't use a bicycle to commute in most of the US.
Motorcycle prices in the US are weird, new big bikes are similar to what the rest of the world pays, but small bikes, they only import the most expensive trims.
I got my used cb150 verza here in vietnam for 700, new they go for 1400 plus ~600 for import and other fees. They sell a bike with the same engine for 4-5000 USD in the US.
The effect of this is that young people and people who just need a bike to get around town either have to pay 3x more than they would over here for the same thing, or more likely, they buy a 20 year old liter bike for the same price, or simply never realize there's an alternative to cars.
I live in the US and I want to start riding a Vespa-style scooter for my local errands. It's crazy how difficult this is, and I live in a suburb of a major city (Philadelphia). There are only two scooter shops within 50 miles or so, and their cheapest scooters are over $6000. Used scooters are virtually non-existent, and even if I found one, the scooter shops won't service anything you didn't buy there. I could buy one on Amazon for $800 plus $400 shipping but I'd have to service it myself and I feel like that would be taking my life in own hands. I'd like an electric scooter but that's virtually non-existent as well.
Then I watch videos from Vietnam and China and scooters are fucking everywhere.
As Kestrel said, motorcycles aren't that much harder to learn, though I started on a semi-automatic Honda Wave.
What they said about why they're more expensive isn't quite accurate; a new Honda Wave is 800-1200 USD out the door here in Vietnam. The Honda Grom has the same engine in America, a little bit nicer trim. It costs 4000, plus dealer fees. The scooter isn't more expensive to manufacture in America, they just know since nobody else is selling an 800 dollar scooter, by increasing prices, they can force anybody who wants a basic scooter to pay 5x more.
That said, scooters and smaller motorbikes are dead simple to work on. Scooters are a little more complicated since the CVT usually has its own oil system you have to change periodically, but still very easy to work on.
As far as utility goes, a light-weight motorcycle with a rack will carry anything a scooter will and can weigh just as little. I can fit 2 medium suitcases in the side-racks of my bike (they fold outwards), and a large one on top, or just tie as many grocery bags as I like to the rear rack, plus I can hang a couple sandwiches from 1 mirror and a couple coffees from the other when I want to go have lunch in a nice place.
Maintaining 65+ on a highway literally requires me to pin the throttle and sit in an aerodynamic tuck, if you want the capability to go long distances on highways without doing that, you probably want more than 12 HP. But it's a moot point in America because for the same price as a new 13 hp vespa or Honda ADV160 or more-than-only-technically-highway-capable Yamaha xmax, you can get a much more capable machine.
Be super careful about unknown name amazon scooters and bikes. Often they have lawnmower engines and pretty much the worst suspension you can imagine.
If you're thinking about looking for a used bike, make a thread in a motorcycle comm, I'm sure some lemmings would be happy to look at the deals in your area and make some recommendations.
Here's my current bike, it's carried me across SEA twice:
I'm sure you've thought of this, but maybe just get a motorcycle? They're not that much harder to ride than a Vespa, and while they're a bit more dangerous, most of the danger either way is getting hit by a car...
A lot of what made Vespa-type scooters historically pretty cheap was the 2-stroke motors, which are being phased out because they're unreliable and bad for the environment. But, they were cheap. Unfortunately, as you've discovered, the 4-stroke scooters are now much more expensive. And for whatever reason we're not importing a lot of electric scooters (tho where I live people love renting those Lime scooters, but you can't like, buy an equivalent vehicle).
Random thought that may not be helpful: When I lived in NYC there were lots of delivery guys with electric scooters. Maybe try to find out where they're getting them?
Huh, just found a 2000 Whizzer Motorbike for sale for $800 on craigslist. That might be my speed. Apparently they top out at 40 mph but that would probably be OK.
I get the sense that you are making your choices based on how intimidating the aesthetics are rather than the actual way they ride.
There's a reason we moved away from that design a century ago. The suspension, wide tires, frame geometry, etc on a modern bike or scooter all make it easier to control.
A small-wheel scooter with a low rake angle sacrifices stability for convenience and compactness.
Stability in this case means how much the thing wants to stay up while under power, a scooter might lean over and start trying to turn if you just reach up to adjust your glasses with 1 hand without being careful to keep the it going straight. The benefit of low stability is that you can lean the scooter over with less effort and stand it back up quicker when you want to go around turns.
Maybe ask friends if you can just try out their bikes before you make any decisions.
I just don't see any electric scooters around here anywhere. I kind of have my eye on this thing called an Aventura-X which is a vespa-style electric scooter that can go 35 mph ($3K) or 50 mph ($5K). I feel like that price kind of defeats the idea in the first place, and I still couldn't get it serviced anywhere.
I'm straight-up afraid of motorcycles; somehow the sit-down style of a vespa seems more accommodating. You're of course right about the danger of being hit, but I'm already an avid bicyclist so I assume I'm going to die that way anyway. I could just ride my bike everywhere, but of course that's slower and the logistics of getting a bike ready for a ride is the big pain in the ass.
Motorcycles occupy a weird place culturally in America. Here in Vietnam, they're as mundane and scary as cars in the US. I uploaded an entirely unremarkable drive across town from last night, maybe seeing everyone from grandmas to children on bikes will help break that perception.
omg they have a sidecar for dogs, that's hilarious. And swappable batteries? I kinda love these, TBH. But yeah gotta go with what you can get a local shop to work on. If you already ride bicycles, I'm sure you've considered the e-bike thing. I have too but they're also really expensive, the one I wanted ended up being like $8K and I was like bruh that's used car prices.
The meme is overstating the price of a new car a bit, but the fact is that buying a used car can almost be just as much. You’re just paying for regular maintenance vs. a car payment
The upside is you "know the history" and can reasonably assume that if you do the maintenance the car will last a reasonable time. And if not the warranty and laws (lemon law) gives you some way out.
Buying used you do not have the knowledge of maintenance, nor the lemon law protections, nor the warranty protections (third party warranties are pretty much scam). So you're relying on the gamble that the car you are buying will last, or you can make it last.
People with knowledge of vehicles and ability to repair have a leg up in that gamble, but it's still a gamble.
Around COVID, the used market went insane because the supply of new cars got fucked up. People really liked that their well-used car was getting a high price and now new sellers want a piece of that. Kinda like how someone is told their house is only going to sell for 2x what they paid instead of 3x and they throw a hissy-fit.
So used cars are also really expensive, which is…fun. Couple that with the insanely toxic car culture of the US and you get a perfect recipe of sellers over-pricing and people who are FAR too eager to pay those prices. Market pressure almost doesn’t exist because that would imply people actually have choices(to own a car) or willpower(to maintain what they have).
In 2010, foreclosure activity reached a record high. RealtyTrac reported that foreclosure-related sales made up nearly 26 percent of all U.S. home sales, and that these properties sold for roughly 28% less than comparable non-foreclosed homes.[10] Nationally, about 1.2 million homes were repossessed that year, the highest annual total on record.[11] The crisis hit certain groups especially hard. Studies found that minority households and fast-growing housing markets suffered the heaviest losses.[12]
This created a negative feedback loop: falling home prices reduced household wealth, which in turn weakened consumer spending and led to further layoffs in construction, retail, and banking. At the community level, areas with concentrated foreclosures saw vacancies rise, property-tax revenues decline, and— in some places—higher crime rates. Local governments faced shrinking budgets that limited support for schools and public services. Commentators sometimes described the hardest-hit areas as “ghost towns.”
Well, there are some steps in between (e.g. your employer becoming unprofitable and you losing your job so you can't afford to make the payments anymore), but essentially, yes.
The only way you might benefit by having lots of debt when a crash happens is if it has no collateral, like credit card debt. Even then, this depends on how useful your credit score will be post-crash.
When I was car shopping last spring ( after totaling my 2013 mazda 3 😩) I saw that the most favorable financing seemed to be available for the larger and more expensive models. Like the Mazda 3 and CX 30 had no special incentives but the CX 5 and 90 had some zero 0 interest offers. I imagine that the financing incentives are similar at different credit levels, so there could be perverse incentive to spend more on a larger vehicle because it’s the only way to get a monthly payment that fits someone’s budget.
They’re also really expensive. When Covid shut down plants the price spiked and hasn’t recovered.
I don’t have any data on that though. My perception is that long loans give incentive to keep ised vehicle prices high - they’re almost interest-only payments for the first 1/3 of the loan so the owner of a 3 year old average car must sell it for almost MSRP or they’ll lose money, and unless there’s pressure to sell it at a loss, they won’t, in turn driving up used prices. Thats just my pet theory.
If you take a look at car YouTube and media this is something that been talked about since COVID.
Right now there is no value space for cars and if you're forced to purchase and can't pay cash interest rates are a thing too.
There are lots of models with 250 plus days of supply my concern is that the auto loan and AI bubbles pop at the same time, that would make '08 seem fun.
People are extremely financially illiterate it boggles my mind. I know some folks whose car payments are like fucking $800 - $1000 a month. My whole mortgage is $950.
Even if the vehicle itself were free, fuel, maintenance, insurance, taxes/registration, tolls, other taxes, and parking still end up being $1000's a year. $50k over the lifetime of a vehicle would probably be cheap. This seems to undersell the cost of a vehicle. Granted, some of that cost if paid by people who don't even own a vehicle. But there's also the indirect costs, such as increased cost of healthcare from more solitary and sedentary lifestyles, the cost of wars over fuel, etc.
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The US auto industry is absolutely to blame for pushing gigantic gas guzzlers on people. But the people who buy those monstrosities and get hugely into debt to do it are very much to blame too.
I think its the EPA for not regulating truck emissions as stringently as they do for normal cars.
DOT is in charge of CAFE regulations. The original law specified standards that were for "passenger vehicles" and "automobiles which are not passenger automobiles".
DOT interpreted that as trucks, which made sense back then. Unfortunately, every manufacturer just declared their cars to be trucks (invention of the SUV) and the DOT let them.
Then they made it worse by scaling fuel economy to vehicle size, so manufactures just made cars have a larger footprint to be allowed to have worse fuel economy.
It's also the auto industry for regulatory-capture of the EPA. It's an ouroboros of corruption with plenty of blame to go around.
They passed a fuel economy law that had to do with vehicle weight, auto industry response was make bigger heavier vehicles to get around new fuel economy requirements. That's the reason all of the reasonably sized personal trucks got massive like 15 years ago.
I've seen quite a few videos about "rolling negative equity" and didn't even know it was a thing. Also, you hear someone threatening the car dealer for suggesting they buy a car for ONLY $20K when he's never been seen something in less than a beamer and being in debt so they have to take a loan for the down payment (which doesn't even make sense to me)... I hope these videos are fake 😢
The first time I heard about rolling negative equity I gasped audibly.
Cars are a depreciating asset unless they’re very rare. They’re always going to have negative equity. This is financial flim-flammery disguised with fancy corpo words.
Negative equity just means you owe more on something than it's worth. So whether you have negative equity on a car loan is a "it depends". On a new car, probably yes because of the big deprecation hit as soon as the car is driven off the lot, but on a car where the loan is almost paid off probably not.
I did not ask for even more interesting times, but the car loans and car insurance industries have some pretty interesting interactions with rising oil prices and climate change.
I just want a manual awd wagon. But I'm not allowed. Wrx was the last one. America gets shit for cars.
But think about what we get instead: massive diesel trucks!
Expensive to own, ass to drive, impractical!
Dont forget road noise!
Look for a VW Alltrack they were made from 2017-2019
Definitely look for that. I had a Rabbit before so the Alltrack was a tempting next step, but was able to get a new 2021 Crosstrek with a manual. It's somewhere between a lifted hatch and a wagon. Managed to fit some 8ft 2x2s in there so I'd say it's pretty functional.
Shit how awesome didnt know this existed. May have to sell my car and get one
I've had mine for four or five years, its my forever car since you just can't get cars like it anymore
amazingly they seem to still be normally priced!
They weren't when I bought mine so act if you find one you like
I don't really like that I'm paying $15-20 more a tank than I did a couple years ago, but I have no sympathy for the price of diesel and the guys with dumb ass monster trucks.
The issue with diesel is farm equipment and shipping. Basically everything we need to survive is impacted.
I don't feel bad for the idiots that bought a lifted truck that gets 9 miles to the gallon though. They got what's coming
The issue with shipping is that it could have been partially avoided with more reliance on rail and less on long-haul trucking, but that's a choice that was inflicted on us rather than one we made ourselves.
Unfortunately freight rail often uses diesel as well. It is more efficient of course pound for pound, but the cost is still felt. Even nations with better rail are feeling the price because of this
Yeah, but electrifying rail didn't require technological innovation the way batteries capable of long-haul trucking did. We could've had electric rail freight decades ago if the political will had been there.
We did, check out the Milwaukee Road Pacific Extension. About 2/3rds of the rail line between Chicago and Seattle was electrified from roughly the 30’s until the 70’s. It was slated to be closed down in 1973 and the oil crisis gave it another year or so.
It was always profitable, but the Milwaukee Road execs didn’t understand it, and didn’t like that it was different from the rest of the network using diesel. Real disappointing stuff.
a nice side effect of diesel prices on shipping is that I'm seeing a lot more electric delivery trucks on the road, it's gonna suck for long haul, but maybe that will move to rail.
They're working on hybridization atm
Yes, it's the victim's faults! They had no choice but to buy these things thanks to lack of alternatives , therefore they are to blame!
The Hyundai Venue is $20k and can get 50mpg highway.
People have a choice of what vehicle they buy.
But how is that going to help with your petromasculinity?
I like this sentiment the most. I worked in the oil and gas industry for a long time. (Ethically opposed the entire time, but thats not my point here.) And drove a subaru, worked with guy that drove a prius. Lots of Honda and Toyota sedans... the people doing the "manly" work aren't even driving big personal vehicles because there is nothing to prove.
This is a funny part about being a carpenter. The new carpenters buy huge trucks to try and impress people. Meanwhile my boss who has been doing this for decades drives a Honda Civic to work lol
And abuse victims have the choice of leaving their abuser.
What a monumentally stupid comparison.
The poor person about to spend $100k+ on a truck, tearfully signing the papers at the dealership: sniffle And could you do that thing where you raise the truck up a few more feet and put monster truck wheels on it? I can’t believe you are making me do this.
lol This is exactly how some people picture it. Poor Americans. In hypercapitalist America, consumers just have no agency at all. Maybe your culture really is gullible and stupid?
Its not useful to blame systemic problems on individuals.
Aw, those poor people had no choice but to buy that F-150!
The other guys at the construction site will make fun of them if they aren't in six-figure debt for a truck that never tows or hauls anything!
The guy who buys a luxury RAM 1500 to pick up groceries definitely had alternatives.
Not sure why you're being downvoted, but judging by the replies it seems like everyone is assuming that by "people have no choice but to buy a personally-owned vehicle" you must have meant "people have no choice but to buy a giant gas-guzzling truck."
It's a crazy leap and a strawman and precisely the kind of lack of nuance that makes it all but impossible to have intelligent discussions about issues that matter. But then again, this is the internet...
I was specifically talking about gigantic gas guzzlers in my original comment. Not even in the US do all cars fall into that category. People do have choices and they choose the monstrosities. I was not in any way trying to blame people for owning a car.
Okay I get it, I was reading the comment in light of the post which talked about "mandatory expensive vehicle in order to be employable because we abandoned trains."
Like, you're right, nobody needs those giant trucks.
But also, even relying on smaller, more efficient POVs as a society is still a bad thing, and being required to buy something in that category is still an injustice that individual people don't have much agency in, at least if they want to be able to get a job without uprooting their lives (and usually living somewhere more expensive in order to have pedestrian access to public transit)
No argument there. I was just pointing out that people do have choices and unfortunately many people make dumb choices.
Yeah I mean I'm down with making fun of truck owners. Just not with blaming individual drivers for systemic urban planning issues that were deliberately ratfucked by industry to begin with
Yeah you can always just buy a civic
I mean, given the comment the reply is to it's not a crazy leap in logic or strawman considering the comment itself specifically was talking about gas guzzling vehicles and not having sympathy for people who bought them.
Perhaps as a reply to the original post it would be read differently but the context it's in makes it so it reads the way it does.
Ah, yeah, I read it as if it were a top-level comment. I see the connection now.
I'll still give her the benefit of the doubt and say she likely meant it in the broader sense, because her takes are usually fairly reasonable.
But yeah, the giant trucks are unnecessary in probably 98% of cases. Honestly even in the 2% where one is needed, a smaller one will do. But those are harder to find these days.
The problem of compulsory POV ownership more broadly though is systemic in the US, and people trapped in that situation don't really have an alternative option.
I have owned a car for 30 years, and never got close to $50,000. I once made the poor decision to buy a brand new $19,000 VW in 2009, never again. Only suckers buy new cars.
well you need them to or you'd not be able to buy used. Having no choice though ? that's what sucks.
How much have you spent on maintenance, repairs, fuel, insurance, fees, taxes etc for your cars in those 30 years?
Passat? My dad made the same mistake. German engineering lmao.
Meanwhile the 2006 toyota I inherited from him still runs fine, though the paint and the plastics are sad.
Toyota supremacy.
I say this as a German.
Maybe 10 years ago, these days I hear Hondas are more reliable
I had to get something to pull a small trailer (like 2,900 dry weight). The literal cheapest option in 2023 was a Jeep Grand Cherokee and it was 44k sticker. I wish I could find an older pickup but people realize what they have and are charging so damn much for them.
I know the used market can vary by region, but if you live in the US I find it hard to image not being able to find a running 90s f-150/250 for under 5k, or a mint condition one for under 10k
If I could buy a 90's F250 for that price I wouldn't have just purchased my 2011. It took me six weeks of 4+ hours a day of searching to find a truck that wasn't silly. The car market is bad, the truck market is worse and if you live in the Midwest you get a price bump too.
Been searching since I had to get that Jeep, most of them in my state (Georgia) are insanely priced because everyone is searching for them. It's probably just the rural nature of this state though.
I managed to find an '01 Tahoe before the pandemic, but my son adopted it as his first car.
What I'm reading there is that there's going to be a 2008-style Crash (this time on auto debt instead of realestate) alongside a 2000-style Crash (this time on Generative AI instead of a Net bubble).
Mind you, it will be centered in the US and other countries will mainly feel side effects.
The 2008 crash was also an auto debt crash. That's why you had Cash-For-Clunkers rolled out in 2009 followed by Obama and Romney arguing over an automotive bailout in the 2012 election.
Also the reason you can't buy a new Mercury/Pontiac
Combine that with a crash of the USD itself. Also commercial and industrial real estate never got the same protections as home loans post-2008 so there's a shit ton of 2008 style shenanigans concerning offices and industrial plots ready to also blow up.
There's no more road to kick our can down. We must face the can. The can is our reckoning.
Well, the supposedly "temporary" ultra-low interest rates that were the "solution" for the Crisis following the 2008 Crash only really postponned the day of reckonning.
Further, those and other government measures rewarding Asset Owners (read: the rich) on the backs of those whose Income comes from Work, caused inequality to explode, which means more "unused money" around (every additional €1 of income for the wealthy goes almost entirelly into savings, every additional €1 if income for the poor and working class goes almost entirelly into consumption) and all that extra money was seeking investments, any investments, which was visible in the markets by lower interest rates on treasuries (for example, the famous negative German bund interest rates), lower bond yields (meaning higher prices for the same level of risk), higher stocks and so on up the risk scale, a pumping up of lots and lots of extra investment money which ultimatelly inflated several bubbles at the same time.
Further, the ultra-low interest rates also made it cheaper to leverage one's investments (i.e. invest with loaned money alongside one's own money), further adding money to those bubbles given the way money is created in the modern monetary system (mainly created by banks when they give loans, with only a small percentage actually created by central banks).
This, by the way, also explains things like the crypto bubble.
I really only mentioned the biggest ones I'm aware off, but I bet we'll have a lot of bubbles of all sizes exploding as soon as the first big bubble blows and causes a credit crunch and investment retraction.
A crash into what alternative? If people are trading away their USDs, what are they trading them for?
I've been hearing people say this since Reagan. "This is the end of the road! The End of History, even!"
But what's the alternative? Does the US just pop out of existence? Do all those creditors take a massive inflationary haircut on their outstanding loans? Does the US suddenly shift to an export economy to get... Japanese Yen? Russian Rubbles? Mexican Pesos? Nigerian gold bars?
Why does there have to be an alternative for the USD to implode? Why would a lack of an alternative sustain an unsustainable system which appears to be cracking under it's own weight right now? The US govt being forced to issue debt at unsustainable interest rates is the only cause of death you need if people don't think they'll get their money back. They will figure out an alternative in that situation.
USD's supremacy isn't just from being the "safest" asset you can hold but also that you need it to buy energy from the middle east, since they agreed to only trade in USD in exchange for US military protection. Also because everybody else uses it. I doubt BRICS will be the alternative though, even if it is a half hearted attempt to get around SWIFT and USD.
And right now it seems to be gold. China has been dumping US treasuries since 2020 and moving heavily into Gold. France did the same. Althought thats not a viable alternative... there simply isn't enough Gold. In an ideal world we would move towards a Keynsian basket of goods as the international unit of exchange instead of a domestic currency but we'll probably pick the dumbest, least painful in the short term, most painful and debilitating in the long term answer... nobody plants trees anymore.
Because value is relative. In order for the value of the USD to fall, the exchange rate has to rise. And that implies people are trading a surplus of USD for another thing.
What is that thing?
The same goods and services but massively increasing amounts of USD diluting its own value because interest rates are so high for US treasuries they enter a death spiral borrowing more (printing) to pay for the borrowing they already did, especially as debt rolls over from 1-2% to 5%+?
It's not looking good... there's no debate that the debt is growing faster than the US economy. Trump blew up the tacit deal requiring USD for energy. Now UAE and others are willing to trade oil in chinese yuan or rubles. Their security agreements with the US apparently weren't worth the paper they were printed on considering the US did the exact opposite of what they promised to those OPEC nations, in fact they actively caused this dumb war with Iran that's destroying plants and infrastructure in the gulf. Thats worse than reneging on your security promises...
Do you think the USD is headed in a positive direction? What do you think is going to happen?
Who has a super abundance of USD that wants to purchase such enormous volumes of consumer goods?
Lets stay on the topic of your original gripe with my comment, which implied that without an alternative the USD system can't collapse, and you've heard these complaints since the 80s. Why do you think that is? Why can the USD system only fail in one way? You never addressed that besides going "nu uh"
Historically that would be the US itself since they hollowed out domestic industry since they could import everything with their exorbitant priviledge. What would stop them from printing even more to keep doing that if it's also the expedient answer? Which is also the core of my whole point here... they're cutting down the trees planted for them by prior generations and we're at the can now.
Overall it seems to me that you're arguing swans can only be white as all swans are white, and there's no evidence of black swans existing. You don't make an alternative to the USD if the USD is working well... I think you have it backwards. An alternative will be made to get around the USD whicj will kill it. Not because of the alternative existing but because the USD failed in it's promises to those that use it. But thats not the only way it fails...
Besides, any time a reserve currency has been replaced historically there usually isn't anything waiting to take up the role right away. It develops after the global trade currency devalues so much it stops being useful for international trade. The pound failed progressively over decades and was replaced with domestic forex temporarily until Bretton Woods solidified the USD as the replacement post WWII.
Indeed and that mofo is going to be steam roller too.
so the time to buy a car will be soon?
Listen, I agree in practice.
But I would not quote "Unusual Whales" for economic advise. This is an AI account that posts "hot tips" for attention.
The deliquency rate for auto loans has been in headlines since at least March. This is a big show slow ship and it's bait to assume some AI account is going to tell you the day it goes down.
yep AI has gotten so good that even people that hate it can't even detect that it's an AI account.
Someone not paying attention screenshotting a quote of a quote is not AI being good enough to evade detection, it's someone not bothering to check if it's AI.
And now the local wants to have to commuting tax.. Y'all better dig up the pavement and put those trolleys back in service. If I'm going to have to take transit it better be free of traffic
When I was in Almaty, Kazakhstan, they had disused trolly rails laid in the median during the USSR. And right next to them, chinese trolly buses with 2 pantagraphs.
Presumably this tells us its cheaper or faster or more politically feasible to steal the parking lane and build 2 pantagraphs on either side of the road and use rubber-tired, electric-overhead buses than to refurbish existing track in unused RoW and build 1 pantagraph.
cheaper... in the short term, endless tire replacement going foward
I get super peeved that just 80 years ago we had the best transit options in the world then these diesel powered effigies roll up.. Like why bother at this point? Now buses barely go to Saratoga.
These threads are always full of people saying, "why don't you just..." The problem is you are suggesting coping methods for a plethora of problems, in a vacuum individually. You're failing to put all of the problems of cars, trucks, and their requisite infrastructure together as the awful, smothering whole that it is.
To the extent that we need cars (since our infrastructure would take years to change even if there was the political will to do it) we need to start copying the Cubans and learn to keep old cars on the road longer. Bonus: they don't spy on you like new cars do.
I have just reached this point myself.
I have a short fun drive to work, enjoy it as a way to clear my head, and I even had a manual transmission WRX a long time ago. I have been checking up on the current models and there are some pretty good looking options whether manual + AWD or maybe a dual clutch setup, etc.
But right now I'm driving a basic car that we bought new like 14 years ago. It still looks good, it's fun to drive (the automatic is shiftable and has lockup clutches while in gear), and it seems mechanically sound with very low miles for the age.
Just the other day I made a conscious decision to stop reading and watching car reviews, and I have been getting back into working on my own car. I have some supplies on the way to change some fluids and shine up the exterior.
Having a fun car helps the drive as long as there’s not too much traffic. I almost don’t mind driving my kid to school (because there’s not enough buses) because my GTI is fun.
Yeah, and that is one of the big intangible benefits of my current job. I do a lot of work in-office even though I'm a software guy, and my "commute" is a 6 or 7 minute drive where the middle two miles is a twisty and hilly country road with very few houses on it. And, if the weather is really really bad, there is a slightly shorter alternate route through a much more populated area but it is perfectly flat roads the whole way.
A GTI would be an absolute blast. Does it have the DSG and if so, how do you like it?
My car is an old Mazda3 from when they first introduced their "Skyactiv" branded tech. The 6-speed auto transmission doesn't quickly snap through shifts like I imagine a dual clutch would, but since keeps the lockup clutch pack engaged as often as possible, when in gear it kind of feels like a manual. I can do the whole twisty road stretch of my commute in 3rd gear and have a pretty fun time hovering between 3k and 5k RPM.
The engine is a 2.0L 155hp, and every time I drive to or from work I think to myself that if I got a new "fun" car it would have roughly double the power and only be a few hundred pounds heavier (unless I went for an MX-5 or a BRZ/GR86 instead of a sedan). I would like it, sure, but the car I am currently sitting in is great fun and it is FREE versus $20K-$40K.
Mine has a manual but I owned one a while back with a DSG. Shifts are basically instant and it’s quicker than a stick, I just like feeling like a race car driver
What they need to do is go back to interchangeable parts and stop letting manufacturers make so many fucking different pieces that do the same shit. A car is a simple machine, stop adding gizmos and all kinda of shit to it to clog it down and bog the cost
Bring back standardized headlights
So you're saying we need to embargo ourselves.
We also need better public transport and to be promoting things like mopeds as a viable alternative to cars.
Amen!
If we did that you wouldn't be able to see a block through the smog in some places.
Depends on how far back you go. Cars from the late 90s and early 2000s are still pretty clean.
Also, a lot of cars can be converted to electric with some knowhow and welding. This could become a cottage industry.
In California, all cars newer than 1975 must pass a smog test.
Converting ICE vehicles to electric vehicles is a cottage industry. While looking for a mechanic recently I found two places that do it.
People power!
I remember watching a show on SPEED that was just one shop doing custom EV conversions.
Of course it was in Cali.
'90s diesels can arguably be less polluting than modern "clean" diesels, depending on which pollutants you care about and if you're running bio-diesel instead of dino-diesel. (Old diesels can run B100, which is carbon-neutral and emits zero SO
x, but it'll destroy the high-pressure fuel pump on a modern common-rail diesel.)This is the way.
For simple(r) car designs, I anticipate that 3d scanning, 3d printing, and even mail order custom parts/manufacturing are going to be indespensible once available parts dry up. Until then, there's no end in sight for replacement Corolla parts.
I've spent only 9,000 so far on purchasing cars in my life. You do not need to spend 50k. I find the cheapest, most gas efficient beaten down used cars I can and ride them until I can't anymore.
People really fall into wanting a "nice" car, but if you treat it as a tool to take you from point A to point B and not a status symbol then you can actually find half affordable cars.
I'd love not to have a car, but public transit is nonexistent in my area. If I attempted to bike I would either get ran over or some asshole in a lifted truck would roll coal on me for fun
On purchasing, sure, but how much have you spent on maintenance?
(And also, roughly how old are you? Having spent only $9k in your life if you're 20 is a very different claim than if you're 50.)
I've been driving for 9 years and one car was totaled in an accident otherwise I'd still have it.
So if we got technical and I count the insurance payout that reimbursed the first car I've spent 4,000 on purchasing cars. Second car was cheaper than the insurance payout.
My current car is from 2007, I've had it for 6 years. So far it's only had 1 major repair that costed about 1,000. Otherwise just the normal maintenance at appropriate intervals. It's sub-compact so the tires are small and quite cheap and it holds less oil than a standard sedan. When I do the oil changes myself this also saves me some money.
I expect the car to last at least 1-2 more years at least. At that point I either have to start pouring money into it or buy another.
Edit: Fixed a math error. Thanks /u/[email protected]
Yeah, that sounds 'bout right: short enough that you can still have an artificially-rosy impression based on luck that nothing major has broken yet, especially since the collision replacement reset the clock. For all you know, that car might've been destined to blow its engine the day after it was totaled.
I've been driving for over two decades, and even owning almost entirely old cars (with only one exception, and that was one I didn't pay for), I've spent much more than $9K on them. And that's despite both doing most of my own maintenance and being willing to just accept flaws that other people would pay to fix or scrap the car over.
I'm not saying it's a bad strategy, for those who must own a car. I'm just saying that even the optimal strategy still adds up eventually.
I 100% know that would not have have happened. I'm not a mechanic, but I know enough to assure you that is not the case.
Even still if it did die the next day that would be back to the 9k.
And I wouldn't call it pure luck, I did a ton of research and shopped around for a couple weeks before I found something acceptable. It's held up as expected
I would also swear up and down that each of my old cars was reliable, until suddenly it was not.
I say that not to scare or discourage anybody from owning an old car instead of a new one, but just to have realistic expectations. And maybe encourage people to have a good roadside assistance policy.
The car that got totaled was in great condition and had absolutely no issues.
The car I'm driving today sure that one could go tomorrow or in a couple of years.
Cars definitely give you signs they are getting ready to give out. You just have to recognize them. Sometimes they are subtle and it can definitely be a waiting game, but once the signs appear it can be tomorrow or 2 years.
I haven't owned many cars personally, but my family has only ever driven clunkers. You learn the signs and which ones are worth the gamble to ignore.
wait so you paid x for car1 and got a y payout and paid z for the second car and your saying x+z-y is -$1000 because that is what im reading. Are you sure you did not come out 1k ahead on car one and then car2 cost that and more?
The payout on car 1 was 5k and the cost of car 2 was 4k.
The economy was doing weird shit to the used car market when I got the first car and it held it's value quite well.
I don't remember the exact numbers anymore and I know I'm rounding so maybe it's closer to -800, but I do remember coming out nicely ahead with the insurance payout.
Either way car 2 was cheaper.
so you paid 200 for car 1 and it ran for years with no maintenance?
Ah wait, I see my math error now big time. God I'm tired. So 4k on cars as first car was fully paid off by insurance.
Thank you for pointing that out I'll fix my numbers
yeah sorry I replied fast to the last one but that makes more sense now.
ok I don't understand your negative numbers here. you paid 5000 and the insurance gave you 5000 back and then you paid 4000. So you paid 4000 in car buying. then you spent another grand in repairs. so cars have cost you 5k not counting gas and insurance and such. Don't get me wrong that is really cheap but its just confusing when you list negative numbers suggesting you have gotten more than you have paid for cars in your lifetime.
that market just doesn't exist anymore in my province, especially with the more thorough safety inspection standards.
they'll let you have lowbeam headlights so bright that they'll make a pedestrian in a crosswalk entirely invisible to oncoming traffic at a four way stop, but oh hell no you can't have a tiny rust hole that could cut somebody if they walked up and stuck their finger into it and wiggled it around.
the cheapest cars that will pass safety in my area will run you at least $3000, at absolute bare minimum, and you've still got $500 in tax and licensing, plus $500 for used tires soon enough. and then the maintenance for brakes and worn/broken suspension parts... rust is a killer up here. I wish they'd stop salting the roads
Honestly its possible to just keep a car going forever if you get the right one. Get someone with a reliable track record and just make sure to spray down the frame so it doesn't rust, keep up with maintenence, and you can drive it for 50 years. Even the big stuff that comes up (like rebuilding a trans) is cheaper than buying a new car.
Cries in state that needs, and applies, road salt 😭
You should be applying treatments to protect your frame. Regularly.
Unibody joys. It's very unrealistic to try to cost the inside of your doors and trunk/hatch.
That's not to say it's not worth doing anything - it absolutely is. It just slows the rust down though, it can't stop it.
I've taught car maintenance and repair to single soldiers for almost two decades. The issue with the Internet's default to buy used is unless you can repair it yourself or have someone that can work on your car cheaply it might not be the best call.
Hell, even being able to diagnose problems a bit can help avoid being scammed by places recommending unnecessary repairs or maintenance.
Oh and as someone who worked as the guy who told you all the stuff that needed to be done at a shady dealership, they will definitely recommend whatever they can. And then its $180 and hour for labor and its .5 hours of labor to change an air filter. I couldn't cut it in that world...
For soldiers? So Dodge chargers and Ford mustangs? Ya those will fall apart after a couple years. There are plenty of reliable brands, most of which are not American or European.
Shit, I won't buy a vehicle that's not Japanese. Kawasaki for my bike and Toyota/Subaru for my cars.
A lot of people choose a car even when it is just worse.
My bike ride to work is 8km and takes 20-25 mins. Yet I know people who live and work near me who drive the same route which takes almost twice as long mostly sat in traffic. They spend more on their car than I do on my mortgage and that is before maintenance, insurance, oh and fuel too because despite choosing such an expensive car and never driving over 10km, oh yeah gotta go for ICE.
Suppose at least with such short distances driven that fuel lasts a while. Doesn't stop them moaning about it though. I should start responding with the cost of Cornish pasties to power my bike.
This was kinda the reason I went back to cycling to work when I lived in London (I had lived in The Netherlands before and there it was pretty normal to do so) - it turns out that it was faster to just cycle through half of Zones 1 and 2 than to walk to an catch the tube (at least London actually has a subway, by car it would've been even worse because of traffic, not to mention parking).
This was back when cycling facilities there were a bit of a joke and there were but a few people doing the same as I did.
Further, even though I was doing it in a big city (so air polution was a consideration), my health actually improved from it (more so when I discovered a site with a polution map of London and switched to a route that minimized time in big avenues with lots of traffic and polution).
I would if i could. I hate driving, but I would get killed if i biked to work. Hell, I'd possibly die just trying to get to the nearest grocery store. I need a bike lane.
Used to cycle a lot, first in The Netherlands, later in London (Britain), but where I am now (Portugal) it's very dangerous because drivers here are in my experience some of the worst in Europe (let's just say that, for example, most won't signal their intention to change direction when turning right, which is very dangerous for cyclists), but in a way I'm in a priviledged position, so I chose to live in a small city close where I work, so I just walk to work (about 15 minutes each way) which even has the upside that I'm guaranteed my 30m+ exercise each day, which a study some years ago showed decreases the risk of cardio-vascular problems by 70%.
There’s the trick. Cyclists know that.
We’re just making our hate for existing on this planet a bit more honest.
Yeah, the car lobby really vetoed walkable and cyclable cities to... sell cars.
If they spend most of their time sitting in traffic then that gas tank won't last very long at all.
How are the bike lanes where you are?
Every lane is a bike lane, just ride in the middle of it and take the lane like you are supposed to.
So a jacked up truck trying to go 80 behind me is bearing down on me, swearing and flailing their arms around? I have no problems with this in quiet residential streets, but bikes just are not compatible with most North American roads. They're too slow to play with cars, they're too fast for sidewalks and pedestrians, and too useful and fun to ignore, so bike lanes are the best answer we have.
I'm not that brave.
"We destroyed?" - it was car industry, no? I remember there was something about car industry buying public transport just to shut them down late.r
That is indeed the case; I believe "we" here refers to society, and functions as a synecdoche for the auto industry
Synecdoche. Haven't come across a good new word in a while, thanks!
Eisenhower interstate system in the US was the start of the downfall. It's a very cool system, but it cost us the trains. I dont know that it can be justified. I like driving and having the freedom to do so, but I would also like to not have to: plus there are a shit load more people who directly suffer because they simply can not drive.
I hope the next wave of logistical genius incorporates more mass public transit, while still supporting some highway network.
Hub style, like airport parking esque, but for bullet trains and light rail. New building would need to require parking as part of the footprint (incorporated decks) to save on space that can be used for public benefit.
Easy to expand on, the counter argument is always "but the cost?!" Like wtf do you think a highway costs per foot? The answer is up to $2,000 per god damn foot. You can buy a lot with that.
Ban cars from populated areas? That is anti-freedom! This fantastic game lets you explore they joys and freedoms of car ownership: https://store.steampowered.com/app/3031880/Car_Park_Capital/
Honestly they just need to make car parking a real constraint in sim city games. That would do more to show people what a blight cars are than anything else.
Sounds like a lot of people were convinced to borrow way more than they could afford for a status symbol no one should care about. Financial literacy should be taught in middle school.
I have 20k in debt just buying a Toyota corolla. I think there is a lot of people who bought status symbols, but there are a lot of people who just need a car that isn't going to break. If I bought used and something happens that would cost me 5k, which can easily happen, Im screwed. I dont know what the answer is. A few years ago, I had a job two blocks away, now I have a job 50 min away. I have to get there somehow and its not like my job is going to be ok with me saying "I need a week off because my car broke"
Yes, there should be accounting and financial classes in middle/high school. However, then the (predatory) loan industry would have less prey. They "love the poorly educated."
Never in my live did I expect to live through an Economic Crash related to Penis Compensation Devices ...
Ban cars from
populatedareas.Or ban cars from Gaia.
The car I bought new in 2017 just ticked over 100k miles. I estimate I've spent $50k over these 9+ years on car payments, interest, gasoline, maintenance/wear items, mods, and insurance for something that is parked for 95+% of the time. Ride share cannot beat $0.50/mile yet, I'm hoping my current car can last until it does.
All Cars Are Bad 🦔
Nah. Cars are a tool that can be good or bad depending on how they are used. Prioritizing car infrastructure over any other form is what's bad.
I should be able to enjoy my daily life without a car. But being able to rent a car so I can go to the middle of nowhere on short notice is pretty great.
Having a single car requires car infrastructure which requires overproduction. The only reason we "need" cars today is that we have decided that society should revolve around it. We should strive to dismantle car infrastructure.
Your position is no less extreme and absurd than our current reality of using cars for everything. We would liberate ourselves of virtually all of the negative impacts of private car dominance well before we got to the point of banning ALL cars. Going that extra mile just for ideological purity would be self defeating and require authoritarian governance to pull off.
Well sure, it can just be left to fall apart instead, but the infrastructure to support any number of cars still requires masses of maintenance. You can have some kind of ATV to go off on adventures in, but we're not wasting resources on stuff like filling potholes or service stations.
Does this mean we'll finally get some decent cheaper used cars on the market? (Just kidding, we all know the answer.)
You can get a decent used car but it’s like $25k and up
It's why everything I own is 30 plus years old. Cash for clunckers was the biggest fucking scam.
Mine are both over 10 years old. One needed a new head gasket and the $8500 that cost was thousands cheaper than any car we’d consider.
This typifies how screwed up things are right now. It makes more sense to rebuild an engine than buy new - that was unheard of 20 years ago.
Holy shit, $8500 for a head gasket job?? We're on to a whole other problem here, good lord that's insane.
Went with the dealership since they give me a lifetime warranty on parts and labor.
My current car cost 4k in 2020. It was made in 2007 and has only costed 1k in repairs that weren't basic maintenance.
It's ugly as hell, and honestly sounds like shit too, but it runs. Still good gas mileage too
Reject modernity buy ugly ass cars or if you can buy no cars
The headliner on my shitbox has started falling off and honestly it adds character.
Staple it back up!
I want to find those sparkly pins my girlfriend had in her 91 Pontiac
When I was looking in 2011, it was still ~22k for several-years-old Corollas/Civics. They just don’t lose any value.
Edit: compared to the new ones, which were also ~22k.
You can buy an old EV for less than $20000, way less than that if you don't have a long commute
Feels pretty good living in one of the few parts of the US where you don't need a car. Just walk or take transit.
Moving to such a place isn't practical for everyone, sadly.
What I think would be practical is not pitching a goddamn foot-stomping, screaming, NIMBY hissy fit every time your city wants to offer transportation options that are anything other than another lane for cars. But I'm apparently in the minority in the US.
I am puzzled that not more people are fleeing the US.
Fleeing to where? Who will take us? Asking for me
PSA: if you have immigrant parents or grand parents you might qualify for citizenship in their countries of origin. Of course, this won’t apply to, nor help most people. In the cases where it does apply, you may need thousands of dollars for acquiring documentation and for application fees. I’m not in any way diminishing the luck or privilege needed to have a chance for a visa in a desireable country nor the resources and work needed to relocate.
Thanks I already talked to immigration lawyers for the country my mom was born in and don't qualify. It's impossible for me to get out unless I win the lottery to buy my way out. This country is a prison.
It's not trivial to leave. Finding work is hard. Housing is hard, especially if you're not physically there to look at places. Getting permanent status is difficult. For many people in the US, they only speak English. Maybe Spanish. So that's limiting.
I know someone who did a few years ago now because, well, you would, wouldn't you?
Honestly name a single country that’s better than the US that takes in immigrants from totally normal countries without a specific degree or sponson from a company. You’re already living in the best country just not at a good time. Open your eyes.
The US barely takes in immigrants with degrees, I know 2 Filipino nurses who literally spent years waiting on a visa and eventually gave up and went to Germany and Abu Dabi.
"The best country" my ass. It's pretty good if you're a white dude but not better than Canada or New Zealand or Sweden (not exhaustive). And in many ways it's trending in the wrong direction.
Have you lived in all of these countries? Because stats and life are completely different.
Or all of Europe
Belarus would not be an improvement.
Bullshit. They have healthcare, mandatory 24 days vacation, and stricter gun laws.
Those are your only qualifications? And you're not worried about it being an obvious Russian puppet state with openly rigged elections? Or that they've been unwelcome in the Council of Europe for like thirty years because of the unabashed authoritarianism and human rights abuses?
If you ask the daily heil, apparently the UK does and gives them a free house.
Hey, the US has been doing that for years too! Love seeing the same playbook in different accents.
I agree on the sponsorship part. Unless you're willing to take a hit on your standard of living, immigration within STEM or an information economy field requires moving somewhere that will employ you first. It's not impossible, but I imagine there's quite a lot of competition these days.
I would argue that the "hit on your standard of living" is more perceived than real (e.g. considering an urban apartment lifestyle "lesser" than a suburban single-family house one even though it's actually better). However, I'd agree that immigrating is just flat-out difficult even without considering that aspect of it.
Sucks to be you if you're spending 50k to buy a car, buy used.
While I agree that buying used is the more prudent option, I don't think we should be distracted from the fact that there are new base model cars close to the 50k range, which is ridiculous
For less than $25k you can buy a new Nissan Sentra, Hyundai Elantra, Toyota Corolla, Volkswagen Jetta, Mazda 3, or a Subaru Impreza. I'm sure there are others.
People just don't seem that interested in buying cars anymore and consumers seem much more interested in projecting status
Even 25k is ridiculous for those models though. You used to be able to get a base model Corolla for like half that
Nissan Sentra cost us 27k including the tax and interests. The marked price was 21k. That was 3 years ago. Made us feel very poor because we couldn't just pay for it, and had to pay more overall for not having that money outright. We didn't have any other debts.
So I don't think people with other debts can afford a car outright either, so end up paying more. Rich people can avoid all that. Or they can take that loan, make more money from the money they already have (higher returns than loan interest rate), and avoid taxes on loan money, and get richer
Indeed, the boots theory of poverty. So many things are cheaper even in absolute terms if you have enough money to get things cheaper or get better things for not much more money that will way outlast the cheap stuff. Also people are more excited to just give you money when you have money (higher interest rate, even for very safe savings accounts).
Oh, I am certainly not advocating for buying new. I'm just trying to say that cheaper options are out there, even if consumers aren't interested in them. It blows my mind that average transaction prices are north of $50k while everyone is seemingly broke.
People can't afford to own a car, that's why. It's not just public transportation infrastructure being fucked.
People can't find used cars because everyone wants a car that'll last a long time but then the job market is shit and people get high aprs and then ruin their credit, it's a lot of shit to get a car but people fuck themselves so hard buying one because they don't know how to navigate the financial aspect. ..... That's at least how I see it.
You also gotta make compromises with what you want vs what you can afford.
Too many people with bad credit bitch about high aprs that lock them down. I feel like if we had a better understanding of the financial demographics they're basing the research off of, we'd know who's not driving because they can't afford it vs lack of infrastructure by state.
The cheap used car market today was largely killed by cash for clunkers. Intentionally seized (literally, destroying perfectly running vehicles) engines to get them off the road. Near a quarter million perfectly running driving cars were intentionally destroyed. That had a short term affect on used car market sure, but more so it fucked people in this particular time for GOOD and CHEAPPP cars. I remember beating the shit out of 500$ bmws the night I got them off craigslist now I cant get a fucking civic for 3 grand that doesn't need another 2 in repairs
Well once there's a glut of cars they'll either shoot the price down and tell nobody, rich private sellers will scalp the cheap glut or they'll pull 👇
again and then we can all start complaining about public transportation twice as hard, with no results on our end but more profits on theirs......
Edit: holy shit they'll destroy the for insurance money if they're able to or they'll sell them back to their manufacturers and lose contracts potentially going out of business but it's more like the glut not being advertised is where it gets fucked and we need to put limits on how many vehicles someone can own. Rich people buying cars and selling them at scalping prices happens.
"But what if someone likes me less for not spending as much money (mostly) frivolously?"
... then you tell them to go fuck themselves?
It's frivolous when you're buying a car to buy a car. When you're pissing away money just to do it. When you need a car for life purposes, it's not frivolous.
You can absolutely tell someone to fuck off if they don't like you for how much you spend on a vehicle. 😏 Anyone can.
You completely misread my comment. I wasn't saying buying a car is frivolous.
I feel like they cost more than 50k now :( plus the crazy interest they're allowed to sucker people into. Criminal.
Wait till the AI token loans of 2045....
But I don't want AI tokens.. Then again, if everyone else gets addicted to it, fuck me my life is going to be so easy in comparison. Another expense I won't have!
Already don't have a car which saves so much I can buy a house and have more money left over than some car owners I know. Wtf do I spend the AI token savings on? There isn't really anything I want. Maybe start a crack addiction? Not sure if its as addictive as Factorio though.
Dystopian novel: Workers compete for jobs, the only way to outwork the masses is to use AI, companies no longer buy* tokens and people have to BYOT, not far off the rideshare gig economy BYOC
Setting up and maintaining a few racks of graphics cards and network stuff for myself and some friends/customers in some cold place would be a great job for me. If it wasn't promoting something completely useless beyond tricking people into handing over their money that should crash the moment people realize this, I would have been one of the bitcoin miners since like 2006.
I saw a commercial for a car lot advertising that they do seven year financing. Like that’s helpful.
7 and 9 years are very common in my country.
What are the interest rates like?
About 2.2% to 3.7% p.a., depend on bank. More often than not people will take the 7 years, but nowadays car is getting more and more pricier and people also trying to project their standard of living more, so 9 years is getting more and more common. 5 years is always rare.
I’ll have to wait for the commercial to reappear, but I think they were over 6% APR here.
Wow, that's really high
Last time I considered buying a new car (in 2019), it turned out that the payment amount if financed over a reasonable number of years was going to be damn close to what I pay for my mortgage! That's partially because my house was cheap when I bought it (not so much, now), but it's also because new cars are ridiculously expensive these days, above and beyond normal inflation.
(I didn't go through with the purchase for other reasons, BTW. Namely, that Toyota was unable to find me a truck with a manual transmission and the other options I wanted, down to the color. If I'm buying a new car it should be exactly what I want, damn it!)
I need a job from about 6am to 2pm, monday-friday.
I need a car to find this magical work schedule job.
I dont have anything.
My mental health, is not well. It makes me really upset, I am actually trapped at home. I cannot walk anywhere. I cannot bike anywhere.
Im really not doing well, and im tired of playing fucking housewife. I want to work. Literally cannot even attempt to, because I live in car centric hell. And who the fuck has the schedule I must have? no one. bloody no one. Im stressed. Its bad. Idk what to do honestly.
Im so tired of every other vehicle being this giant metal heap of shit, and im tired of the people in em.
I know some factories have a 6-2 shift.
All of my car purchases in my life were about 4k, 6k, 15k and 25k so far. All 4 collectively were about 50k Just saying.
I don't understand. Why don't people buy cheaper and/or second hand cars?
Used car market is kinda insane right now, even worse for trucks.
It's bad enough it's affecting bikes, but you can still get reliable used bikes for 2-5K.
Ultimately the used car market depends on people paying 50K for cars, the more people buy less reliable/cheaper or used cars, the more expensive it gets.
This is an insane thing to read as a dutch person
Motorbikes, I got my new commuter-style bicycle in the US for 600 USD in 2019, the same bike goes for 700 USD now. But you can't use a bicycle to commute in most of the US.
Motorcycle prices in the US are weird, new big bikes are similar to what the rest of the world pays, but small bikes, they only import the most expensive trims. I got my used cb150 verza here in vietnam for 700, new they go for 1400 plus ~600 for import and other fees. They sell a bike with the same engine for 4-5000 USD in the US.
The effect of this is that young people and people who just need a bike to get around town either have to pay 3x more than they would over here for the same thing, or more likely, they buy a 20 year old liter bike for the same price, or simply never realize there's an alternative to cars.
I live in the US and I want to start riding a Vespa-style scooter for my local errands. It's crazy how difficult this is, and I live in a suburb of a major city (Philadelphia). There are only two scooter shops within 50 miles or so, and their cheapest scooters are over $6000. Used scooters are virtually non-existent, and even if I found one, the scooter shops won't service anything you didn't buy there. I could buy one on Amazon for $800 plus $400 shipping but I'd have to service it myself and I feel like that would be taking my life in own hands. I'd like an electric scooter but that's virtually non-existent as well.
Then I watch videos from Vietnam and China and scooters are fucking everywhere.
As Kestrel said, motorcycles aren't that much harder to learn, though I started on a semi-automatic Honda Wave.
What they said about why they're more expensive isn't quite accurate; a new Honda Wave is 800-1200 USD out the door here in Vietnam. The Honda Grom has the same engine in America, a little bit nicer trim. It costs 4000, plus dealer fees. The scooter isn't more expensive to manufacture in America, they just know since nobody else is selling an 800 dollar scooter, by increasing prices, they can force anybody who wants a basic scooter to pay 5x more.
That said, scooters and smaller motorbikes are dead simple to work on. Scooters are a little more complicated since the CVT usually has its own oil system you have to change periodically, but still very easy to work on.
As far as utility goes, a light-weight motorcycle with a rack will carry anything a scooter will and can weigh just as little. I can fit 2 medium suitcases in the side-racks of my bike (they fold outwards), and a large one on top, or just tie as many grocery bags as I like to the rear rack, plus I can hang a couple sandwiches from 1 mirror and a couple coffees from the other when I want to go have lunch in a nice place.
Maintaining 65+ on a highway literally requires me to pin the throttle and sit in an aerodynamic tuck, if you want the capability to go long distances on highways without doing that, you probably want more than 12 HP. But it's a moot point in America because for the same price as a new 13 hp vespa or Honda ADV160 or more-than-only-technically-highway-capable Yamaha xmax, you can get a much more capable machine.
Be super careful about unknown name amazon scooters and bikes. Often they have lawnmower engines and pretty much the worst suspension you can imagine.
If you're thinking about looking for a used bike, make a thread in a motorcycle comm, I'm sure some lemmings would be happy to look at the deals in your area and make some recommendations.
Here's my current bike, it's carried me across SEA twice:
I'm sure you've thought of this, but maybe just get a motorcycle? They're not that much harder to ride than a Vespa, and while they're a bit more dangerous, most of the danger either way is getting hit by a car...
A lot of what made Vespa-type scooters historically pretty cheap was the 2-stroke motors, which are being phased out because they're unreliable and bad for the environment. But, they were cheap. Unfortunately, as you've discovered, the 4-stroke scooters are now much more expensive. And for whatever reason we're not importing a lot of electric scooters (tho where I live people love renting those Lime scooters, but you can't like, buy an equivalent vehicle).
Random thought that may not be helpful: When I lived in NYC there were lots of delivery guys with electric scooters. Maybe try to find out where they're getting them?
Huh, just found a 2000 Whizzer Motorbike for sale for $800 on craigslist. That might be my speed. Apparently they top out at 40 mph but that would probably be OK.
I get the sense that you are making your choices based on how intimidating the aesthetics are rather than the actual way they ride.
There's a reason we moved away from that design a century ago. The suspension, wide tires, frame geometry, etc on a modern bike or scooter all make it easier to control.
A small-wheel scooter with a low rake angle sacrifices stability for convenience and compactness.
Stability in this case means how much the thing wants to stay up while under power, a scooter might lean over and start trying to turn if you just reach up to adjust your glasses with 1 hand without being careful to keep the it going straight. The benefit of low stability is that you can lean the scooter over with less effort and stand it back up quicker when you want to go around turns.
Maybe ask friends if you can just try out their bikes before you make any decisions.
I just don't see any electric scooters around here anywhere. I kind of have my eye on this thing called an Aventura-X which is a vespa-style electric scooter that can go 35 mph ($3K) or 50 mph ($5K). I feel like that price kind of defeats the idea in the first place, and I still couldn't get it serviced anywhere.
I'm straight-up afraid of motorcycles; somehow the sit-down style of a vespa seems more accommodating. You're of course right about the danger of being hit, but I'm already an avid bicyclist so I assume I'm going to die that way anyway. I could just ride my bike everywhere, but of course that's slower and the logistics of getting a bike ready for a ride is the big pain in the ass.
Motorcycles occupy a weird place culturally in America. Here in Vietnam, they're as mundane and scary as cars in the US. I uploaded an entirely unremarkable drive across town from last night, maybe seeing everyone from grandmas to children on bikes will help break that perception.
omg they have a sidecar for dogs, that's hilarious. And swappable batteries? I kinda love these, TBH. But yeah gotta go with what you can get a local shop to work on. If you already ride bicycles, I'm sure you've considered the e-bike thing. I have too but they're also really expensive, the one I wanted ended up being like $8K and I was like bruh that's used car prices.
Aaaaah okay yeah that makes more sense
Why don’t poor people just buy more money?
The meme is overstating the price of a new car a bit, but the fact is that buying a used car can almost be just as much. You’re just paying for regular maintenance vs. a car payment
New cars need regular maintenance too.
The upside is you "know the history" and can reasonably assume that if you do the maintenance the car will last a reasonable time. And if not the warranty and laws (lemon law) gives you some way out.
Buying used you do not have the knowledge of maintenance, nor the lemon law protections, nor the warranty protections (third party warranties are pretty much scam). So you're relying on the gamble that the car you are buying will last, or you can make it last.
People with knowledge of vehicles and ability to repair have a leg up in that gamble, but it's still a gamble.
Around COVID, the used market went insane because the supply of new cars got fucked up. People really liked that their well-used car was getting a high price and now new sellers want a piece of that. Kinda like how someone is told their house is only going to sell for 2x what they paid instead of 3x and they throw a hissy-fit.
So used cars are also really expensive, which is…fun. Couple that with the insanely toxic car culture of the US and you get a perfect recipe of sellers over-pricing and people who are FAR too eager to pay those prices. Market pressure almost doesn’t exist because that would imply people actually have choices(to own a car) or willpower(to maintain what they have).
Wow poor Usians. I have a lovely new electric car, it does 200miles on a charge and costs me £105 a month. It costs me about £30 a month to charge..
Congratulations on owning an appliance. Tell me about your dishwasher next.
What’s a Usian?
Imagine getting a car loan. I get if you have to. But people get massive loans to get cars they don't need at all.
ASP for new cars in the US 50k average salary 66k roll a few grand into your new car and you get a 1k a month for 84 months
I refuse to own a car. Worthless in my opinion.
Yeah, I did the same. Though for a long time it was becuase I couldn't afford it even if I wanted one.
When you have £8k a year income and have to pay rent, learning to drive or getting a car is impossible.
So what happens to my current loan when the crash happens
What happened to people with home loans in 2008?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_United_States_foreclosure_crisis
Your car gets repossessed and you get screwed, while the rich profit off your misfortune.
So all the banks are just like "we fucked up our end so no car for you"?
Well, there are some steps in between (e.g. your employer becoming unprofitable and you losing your job so you can't afford to make the payments anymore), but essentially, yes.
The only way you might benefit by having lots of debt when a crash happens is if it has no collateral, like credit card debt. Even then, this depends on how useful your credit score will be post-crash.
https://www.kbb.com/car-news/average-new-car-price-in-july-hits-2026-high/
This is enabled by financial illiteracy and arguably predatory 8+ year loans on new vehicles.
When I was car shopping last spring ( after totaling my 2013 mazda 3 😩) I saw that the most favorable financing seemed to be available for the larger and more expensive models. Like the Mazda 3 and CX 30 had no special incentives but the CX 5 and 90 had some zero 0 interest offers. I imagine that the financing incentives are similar at different credit levels, so there could be perverse incentive to spend more on a larger vehicle because it’s the only way to get a monthly payment that fits someone’s budget.
I also got a car semi recently and hearing how people are stretching the terms from 5 years to 8 (for lower payments) was shocking
Too many people buying above their means
What does that calculation look like when also considering used cars?
They’re also really expensive. When Covid shut down plants the price spiked and hasn’t recovered.
I don’t have any data on that though. My perception is that long loans give incentive to keep ised vehicle prices high - they’re almost interest-only payments for the first 1/3 of the loan so the owner of a 3 year old average car must sell it for almost MSRP or they’ll lose money, and unless there’s pressure to sell it at a loss, they won’t, in turn driving up used prices. Thats just my pet theory.
"Cash for Clunkers" had already fucked the used car market; Covid just added to it.
If you take a look at car YouTube and media this is something that been talked about since COVID.
Right now there is no value space for cars and if you're forced to purchase and can't pay cash interest rates are a thing too.
There are lots of models with 250 plus days of supply my concern is that the auto loan and AI bubbles pop at the same time, that would make '08 seem fun.
People are extremely financially illiterate it boggles my mind. I know some folks whose car payments are like fucking $800 - $1000 a month. My whole mortgage is $950.
But that's only $200-250 a week!
That’s a great deal if you ask me. Let me go get me one.
Even if the vehicle itself were free, fuel, maintenance, insurance, taxes/registration, tolls, other taxes, and parking still end up being $1000's a year. $50k over the lifetime of a vehicle would probably be cheap. This seems to undersell the cost of a vehicle. Granted, some of that cost if paid by people who don't even own a vehicle. But there's also the indirect costs, such as increased cost of healthcare from more solitary and sedentary lifestyles, the cost of wars over fuel, etc.