A Japanese boy noticed his butterflies seemed to recognize him. He spent two years making an experiment and proved that metamorphosis does not remove memories made during the caterpillar stage.
Summary:
He took larvae (caterpillars), split them into two groups, and offered them sugar water and sugar water with lavender scent in it. The ones feeding on the lavender scent were then given a mild electric shock that make them vomit so they associated it with something bad. Then in their adult phase he offered the same two choices and the plain sugar water group went 50-50 to the choices whereas the shocked/lavender group went to the plain sugar water 80% of the time.
While looking into it I found references to studies on this dating back to at least 2008, studies on larval neural changes and fruit fly studies. They studied memory retention in moths also.
We knew this though. Still ..never a bad idea to confirm with your own findings..
The fascinating thing is the caterpillar turns into goo in the pupa and still retains memories.
I'm actually flabbergasted that insects (Or whatever butterflies are) having some kind of memory over a longer time span in the first place ..... So much for how much I know about animals....
He also did an experiment where he subjected butterflies to an unpleasant smell so they learned to avoid it. Not only did the butterflies avoid it but their offspring avoided it too. And those butterflies offspring, down several generations.
It's really groundbreaking science.
Is it inherited memory?
I don't think science has an explanation for how it could be possible.
The same thing happens with rodents. They gave lady rodents a lemon smell (citruis isn’t pleasant for them) and it caused them to have a kink for lemon smell for like 3 generations. Crazy stuff.
As for an explanation, Epigenetics is where you want to look. Its a fairly new field, few dozen years old, and it studies methylation of DNA. Methylation (addition of a methyl group to the exposed end of DNA) or demethylation (removal of a methyl group) happens in response to experiences while alive, and changes how genes are expressed. Doesn't change the DNA itself, but because the methyl groups are chemically bonded to the DNA some of them carry through the reproductive process. This means some of those changes are passed down. The epigenome isnt passed down completely, about half-2/3 of it is reset between generations, iirc, but what is passed down can cause stuff like this “inherited memory”.
The epigenome is really neat, and as far as we know, everything with DNA has one. In humans, for just one example tjat we know of, it can impact fat storage. If a person lives through starvation conditions, the bodies of their offspring will prefer to pack on weight because they think they are being born into famine. When researchers studied descendants of major famines (starting with those born during the famine), they found that those methylation points didn't reset for 3-4 generations. Thats insane! Thats a hundred years! Its also why as identical twins age, they can start to look more and more different, and they -can- actually be DNA matched if you have the tools to look at the epigenome, because no two adults will have the same lived experiences.
Imo, this was the coolest concept in the original Assassin's Creed. The idea that skills and memories were "embedded" into our DNA and could be unlocked.
Someone should tell Adrian Tchaikovsky because wasn't that one of the things in children of Time wasn't that one of the abilities of the spiders? Now I got to go reread that book.
It's not mentioned in the post. He didn't plan it as part of his original experiment. After his experiment was a success he noticed that his family all had migraines. He decided to try to test if memories could be inherited. It was a separate test the following year with new caterpillars.
Oh, its in the title... My mind automatically translated it to the second experiment cause thats the most interesting one. Why would the post not mention it?
I think people might assume you're a bot because your account is marked as a bot account. The constant reposting from reddit without adding any original thought just reinforces that appearance.
That's odd, there's a decent amount of it most places I look. Certainly not as much as reddit, but, quite frankly, I prefer the slower pace. It makes it feel more human and less like a soulless monstrosity designed entirely to capture my attention and sell it to the highest bidder.
Personally, I wouldn't mind the reposts if you, and the others who've taken it upon themselves to repost without having been asked, put a bit of effort into the posts. By all means find interesting content on reddit and bring it here, but take a monent to say why you think it's interesting or worthy of other's time.
Eh yeah, they basically become lifeform soup at some point, so I also would not have guessed they can retain memories. But apparently the soup remembers.
When the caterpillar goes into its cocoon, it basically liquifies itself into a soup, including the nervous system. So for a while scientists didn't know how much of the old caterpillar really remained in the new butterfly, or if it was essentially killing itself and birthing a new organism from the goop.
Unfortunately for the common misunderstanding, "basically" is doing too much heavy lifting there. Most of their cells are replaced or reconfigured during metamorphosis but the central nervous system is not reduced to an unconnected paste. Linking an ancient Reddit thread for an overview and terms to chase down if you're curious. https://www.reddit.com/r/askscience/comments/mpqu2/what_happens_to_a_caterpillars_brain_during/c32x1pc/
You should look up what happens during metamorphosis. Their whole body turns to liquid in the cacoon and then they reform as a butterfly. So where would the memories be stored?
I mean, that's science, innit? You form a reasonable hypothesis and then ruthlessly attack it.
I think it'd be perfectly reasonable to ask why a butterfly needs to remember anything at all about what it did as a caterpillar. It likely has a completely different diet (maybe it doesn't eat at all), it sees the world from a very different perspective, it is orders of magnitude faster, it has all that mating shit to figure out...
77 replies
Summary: He took larvae (caterpillars), split them into two groups, and offered them sugar water and sugar water with lavender scent in it. The ones feeding on the lavender scent were then given a mild electric shock that make them vomit so they associated it with something bad. Then in their adult phase he offered the same two choices and the plain sugar water group went 50-50 to the choices whereas the shocked/lavender group went to the plain sugar water 80% of the time.
While looking into it I found references to studies on this dating back to at least 2008, studies on larval neural changes and fruit fly studies. They studied memory retention in moths also.
That is much more substantial than I expected it to be. Amazing!
Am I Zhuang-zhi who was just dreaming I was a butterfly, or am I a butterfly who is now dreaming that I am Zhuang-zhi?
We knew this though. Still ..never a bad idea to confirm with your own findings..
The fascinating thing is the caterpillar turns into goo in the pupa and still retains memories.
I'm actually flabbergasted that insects (Or whatever butterflies are) having some kind of memory over a longer time span in the first place ..... So much for how much I know about animals....
He also did an experiment where he subjected butterflies to an unpleasant smell so they learned to avoid it. Not only did the butterflies avoid it but their offspring avoided it too. And those butterflies offspring, down several generations.
It's really groundbreaking science. Is it inherited memory? I don't think science has an explanation for how it could be possible.
The same thing happens with rodents. They gave lady rodents a lemon smell (citruis isn’t pleasant for them) and it caused them to have a kink for lemon smell for like 3 generations. Crazy stuff.
As for an explanation, Epigenetics is where you want to look. Its a fairly new field, few dozen years old, and it studies methylation of DNA. Methylation (addition of a methyl group to the exposed end of DNA) or demethylation (removal of a methyl group) happens in response to experiences while alive, and changes how genes are expressed. Doesn't change the DNA itself, but because the methyl groups are chemically bonded to the DNA some of them carry through the reproductive process. This means some of those changes are passed down. The epigenome isnt passed down completely, about half-2/3 of it is reset between generations, iirc, but what is passed down can cause stuff like this “inherited memory”.
The epigenome is really neat, and as far as we know, everything with DNA has one. In humans, for just one example tjat we know of, it can impact fat storage. If a person lives through starvation conditions, the bodies of their offspring will prefer to pack on weight because they think they are being born into famine. When researchers studied descendants of major famines (starting with those born during the famine), they found that those methylation points didn't reset for 3-4 generations. Thats insane! Thats a hundred years! Its also why as identical twins age, they can start to look more and more different, and they -can- actually be DNA matched if you have the tools to look at the epigenome, because no two adults will have the same lived experiences.
Imo, this was the coolest concept in the original Assassin's Creed. The idea that skills and memories were "embedded" into our DNA and could be unlocked.
Makes me wonder where memories are stored. Maybe it's more complicated than we think it is
Memories are stored in the balls
Woooooosh
?
Someone should tell Adrian Tchaikovsky because wasn't that one of the things in children of Time wasn't that one of the abilities of the spiders? Now I got to go reread that book.
It's morphic resonance according to Rupert Sheldrake. Very legit science guy, trust me.
The "also" is unnecessary, that's the experiment he did.
It's not mentioned in the post. He didn't plan it as part of his original experiment. After his experiment was a success he noticed that his family all had migraines. He decided to try to test if memories could be inherited. It was a separate test the following year with new caterpillars.
Edit: typo
What was the original experiment again?
Testing weather caterpillars retain memory when they metamorphicize into butterflies
Oh, its in the title... My mind automatically translated it to the second experiment cause thats the most interesting one. Why would the post not mention it?
When was this? Thought that got proven years ago.
you should run an experiment to prove memers forget previous news
Bullshit! Memes are the best news source out there! E.g. I just learned that there is this new Pokémon that is kind of slow.
A slow Pokémon? A slow Poké? Is he a Slowpoke?
already forgot the name of the Pokemon, interesting...
Yah this is from 2024 I believe, studying swallowtail butterflies. Couldn’t find the paper but there is a lot of blogspam out there talking about it
10-Year-Old Discovers That Butterfly Memories Survive Metamorphosis and Can Be Inherited
I never stop loving science and the scientific method. One of the last things that always makes me happy.
Lol. At least find the source and share information if you gonna copy a reddit post.
Lucky bastard, every time I try accessing old reddit it doesn't let me
You're better off without it. Don't turn back.
K
OK. Bro why u on reddit
The better question is why do you exclusively bring reddit content to lemmy/piefed?
For... content...
Mmmm yes exactly what Lemmy needs, more sourceless text on images
Beats 'nothing'...
Does it? You'd rather scroll Facebook slop than do something else?
Yes, at least there is something to discuss...
Feels like Butterflies are just self isekaiing caterpillars lol.
No link to anything at all?
Just image? No link to any article? WTF is this? 4Chan?
Fake and gay. User blocked.
Tineye is notoriously terrible. Try yandex
https://hugkum.sho.jp/747736
fake, of course... but gay?
It's always interesting every time this information gets reposted.
This kid is very smart and I wish him well.
But OP... I get to repost this next month..
I love the story, I'm just against people sharing a story that was shared on Reddit years ago.
I don't hate you OP, I just wish you could be back on Reddit.
I tried to trace back how Old the original story is.. All I had was months and months of Reddit, Instagram and Facebook reusing the story.
It's a good story but I don't think we still need to keep sharing the story.
I've never heard this story 🤷🏻
Not all of us are terminally online. I've never seen it before.
This is a bot. The reverse image serach returned zero results. News is fake and this is AI astroturfing
Ah that makes so much more sense. Thankyou for the information
I m not a bot. People should stop with these false accusations. I think people accusing me are reddit agents that want no content on lemmy.
I repost from reddit yes
I think people might assume you're a bot because your account is marked as a bot account. The constant reposting from reddit without adding any original thought just reinforces that appearance.
There is no content on lemmy that's why. Y welcome
That's odd, there's a decent amount of it most places I look. Certainly not as much as reddit, but, quite frankly, I prefer the slower pace. It makes it feel more human and less like a soulless monstrosity designed entirely to capture my attention and sell it to the highest bidder.
Personally, I wouldn't mind the reposts if you, and the others who've taken it upon themselves to repost without having been asked, put a bit of effort into the posts. By all means find interesting content on reddit and bring it here, but take a monent to say why you think it's interesting or worthy of other's time.
They also operate a network of alt accounts and whenever anyone complains they accuse them of being a Reddit agent...
This you too?
Is that accurate? I've had mods accuse me baselessly only to have another mod quote it as fact.
They’re both calling people Reddit agents trying to decontent lemmy so you be the judge.
That's how you act makes sense people call you a reddit bot
I think it's that they become ooze at one stage part.
Eh yeah, they basically become lifeform soup at some point, so I also would not have guessed they can retain memories. But apparently the soup remembers.
Okay thats crazyyy
When the caterpillar goes into its cocoon, it basically liquifies itself into a soup, including the nervous system. So for a while scientists didn't know how much of the old caterpillar really remained in the new butterfly, or if it was essentially killing itself and birthing a new organism from the goop.
Unfortunately for the common misunderstanding, "basically" is doing too much heavy lifting there. Most of their cells are replaced or reconfigured during metamorphosis but the central nervous system is not reduced to an unconnected paste. Linking an ancient Reddit thread for an overview and terms to chase down if you're curious. https://www.reddit.com/r/askscience/comments/mpqu2/what_happens_to_a_caterpillars_brain_during/c32x1pc/
You should look up what happens during metamorphosis. Their whole body turns to liquid in the cacoon and then they reform as a butterfly. So where would the memories be stored?
Not really. Elementary school mislead you.
I mean, that's science, innit? You form a reasonable hypothesis and then ruthlessly attack it.
I think it'd be perfectly reasonable to ask why a butterfly needs to remember anything at all about what it did as a caterpillar. It likely has a completely different diet (maybe it doesn't eat at all), it sees the world from a very different perspective, it is orders of magnitude faster, it has all that mating shit to figure out...