My god the comments. You are perfectly allowed to not know much about a country. I don't know about PRC either. But I know to keep my mouth shut on matters I don't know about. I don't go on parroting propaganda for those things.
It's all about geography , if China was on the map like Australia or more like the US they wouldn't have any problems if they had plenty of space and no neighbors.
Geographical environment is unquestionably one of the constant and indispensable conditions of development of society and, of course, influences the development of society, accelerates or removed its development. But its influence is not the determining influence, inasmuch as the changes and development of society proceed at an incomparably faster rate than the changes and development of geographical environment. in the space of 3000 years three different social systems have been successively superseded in Europe: the primitive communal system, the slave system and the feudal system. In the eastern part of Europe, in the U.S.S.R., even four social systems have been superseded. Yet during this period geographical conditions in Europe have either not changed at all, or have changed so slightly that geography takes no note of them. And that is quite natural. Changes in geographical environment of any importance require millions of years, whereas a few hundred or a couple of thousand years are enough for even very important changes in the system of human society.
It follows from this that geographical environment cannot be the chief cause, the determining cause of social development; for that which remains almost unchanged in the course of tens of thousands of years cannot be the chief cause of development of that which undergoes fundamental changes in the course of a few hundred years
in the space of 3000 years three different social systems have been successively superseded in Europe: the primitive communal system, the slave system and the feudal system.
A state the exists as a servant to a citizenry that is not limited to class or ethnicity. A state served as a safeguard to the human rights of all humans within its sovereignty.
It also serves as a mechanism to efficiently direct resources to human advancement as basic needs are automated.
You just described the PRC, and notably not capitalist dictatorships, whose governments don't represent their people / working class, but the interests of capitalists only.
You desperately need to get past this poli-sci-intro-level understanding of what states are. States are organizations of force for one class (meaning in Marxism their relationship to production) to oppress another. The USA and other liberal countries are capitalist dictatorships over workers, while the PRC is a worker's dictatorship over capital.
Finland? Where despite years of protest by the people, the state continues to buy Israeli weapons and cooperate with the zionist entity in the development of military tech and spyware? The state currently ignoring the very clear wishes of it's people in order to aid and abet a historically unpopular genocide?
The country that was a Nazi ally and didn't drop the swastika from their air force insignia until 2025? Finland the country currently implementing mass austerity while giving tax cuts to the rich? That Finland?
No just one out of every 14 people, which you may notice is many thousands of times more democratic than any of the western so-called democracies by percentage.
So 13 out of 14 people do not belong to the only political coalition (the 8 parties with 700,000 members total don't really count as "opposition parties") that is legally allowed in their country?
In reference to my original post, we agree that authoritarianism is bad and you are arguing the case that China and the CCP is not authoritarian, correct?
The communist party is a working class party. What exactly do you think the purpose of a party is? And what do you think class is? You seem confused on each.
Lol America, land of the free, they literally arrested anyone who said they were a communist and confiscated your gold because they said it was illegal.
Liberals believe hating something is critique. That's why they claim Lemmy.ml bans people for "criticizing" socialist countries, when in reality their "critique" is just saying "fuck xyz."
Mostly their critique, as you said, is just plain insulting. Often it is not to an ideology or a system, but a person or people. Like the person above just insulted not the US, not capitalism, not western imperialism, but Trump, a single person. What is even the point?
There' no such thing as a "non-authoritarian" state or other myths like the tooth-fairy, but even if they existed, then it'd be hard to argue that letting the US surveillance state operate freely within your borders is somehow "non-authoritarian". The US is more likely than any other country to use the intelligence they've gained learned to harm you physically. See the Phoenix Program.
Literally every government with the capability to control information is doing that, and frankly the rise of bleach-injecting covid denialist flat earth tradwife inflluencers has proven China right to do so.
So like, objectively not China? Because their ruling party consists of 90 million members and they're constantly debating shit, and enjoy an incredibly high satisfaction rate among non-party members?
Yes, of course they could. Individual people make the decision to practice birth control every day, and a vast democratic assembly of millions voted in by their peers can make that decision as well. Meanwhile in the US, reproductive policy is dictated by nine unelected ministers: an objectively far less democratic process, yet our media never describes the US government as "authoritarian." Because it's not a term meant to usefully delineate important differences in form and function, it's a vibes based epithet meant to be wielded against geopolitical enemies of capitalism. It's a thought-terminating cliche, deployed highly selectively against anti-imperialist societies to artificially cast proletarian authority as uniquely evil while tacticly normalizing the authority of billionaires and corporations.
In practice, authoritarianism is when you are objectively more democratic in function and policy than western countries, but commit the cardinal sin of using that authority to safeguard your sovereignty, people and resources from the inhumanity of global capitalism.
i love that it has the caveat in the second definition abt a constitution. like, no guys, totslly not us, look at this definition we created to show how we arent authoritarian
You clearly don't understand the purpose of the firewall and the online surveillance is no more than any other country but at least our government is accountable to us as opposed to owned by capital.
To us. There's a reason that even from Harvard's research the government has a 95+% approval.
Direct elections reach the township and county levels where voters choose deputies to local people's congresses. These grassroots deputies constitute the overwhelming majority of all deputies nationwide. Advancement to higher levels requires proven service at lower rungs, ensuring every national deputy has worked up from local material conditions and remains accountable to the masses below.
Grassroots legislative liaison stations and community consultation channels ensure mass input shapes policy at every stage, making democracy a daily practice not a periodic (meaningless) ritual. Whole-process people's democracy embeds consultation and pilot programs into governance: policies are tested locally, refined through mass feedback, then scaled nationally. This grounds decisions in what we want and need.
All 55 ethnic minorities hold guaranteed representation in the NPC. Farmers and labourers comprise roughly 15% of deputies while professionals and technical personnel make up the remainder.
Even besides all that if you just look at what the Chinese government does as opposed to those owned by capital. Mass poverty alleviation, anticorruption at all levels, massive investment in socially profitable but monetarily unprofitable public services, deflating the housing bubble. These are not the actions of a government only looking out for a select few.
And also the CPC has over 100million members since 2024 that 1 in 14 people are party members not to mind those who aren't but are active in consulting due to their position such as most engineers and scientists.
Just because the anglosphere is a socioeconomic nightmare realm of genocide, immiseration and omnipresent propaganda where everyone is at each other's throats doesn't mean everywhere else is too.
What you're saying is you want to be suspicious of data that paints other places in a better light than us, because it makes you feel bad. You then rationalize this desire as "wisdom" while continuing to apply it selectively against societies your government has told you to hate.
I was born and raised here. The VPN is for the firewall which has many reasons to exist and I support, also they're not illegal. Criticising the government is super common but mostly over mundane stuff because that's what people care about (there's a reason the approval even according to Harvard is 95+%). You people are always so arrogant while being so uninformed it's amazing.
It simply isn't. Remember snowden? The NSA? TAO? Pegasus? Our government is simply more open and honest with us (might be a side effect of having real democracy as opposed to a charade put on by bought candidates every 4 years). Also before you say that's just America, Europe are American vassal states all of these and more (since this is just what has leaked) are deployed against Europeans too and intel is shared in deals like five eyes.
Then they fit the second part, living in ignorance. Online surveillance there is measurably worse.
Edit: just for clarity, I'm not "china bad" in my worldview but claims they their online surveillance is the same as elsewhere is utter nonsense and either from ignorance or indoctrination.
The firewall was created to foster and protect China’s fledgling digital infrastructure and data sovereignty. Many countries regulate foreign platforms and data flows. China built its own ecosystem instead of depending on foreign companies. We have seen what happens when foreign platforms operate without local oversight: Facebook facilitating genocide in Myanmar, coordinated anti-vax disinformation campaigns in Southeast Asia, algorithm-driven radicalization. The firewall makes those kinds of external influence operations harder or close to impossible to run at scale. I support it and so do many others as the alternative is plain to see. Also everyone has a VPN we're not living in ignorance it is in fact people like yourself who are massively ignorant about us and our country.
Define authoritarian. The PRC spent decades of anti-colonial struggle defeating British imperialists, Japanese imperialists, feudal reactionaries, and then US imperialists. Do you know more than them about how to defeat vicious empires, "non-authoritarianly"?
The working classes use state authority for pro-social policy and to prebent capitalists from gaining political power, as opposed to capitalist authority for pro-profit policy and to prevent the working classes from gaining political power. Authority has a class dynamic, analysis without class erases the core distinction.
Aah yes unlike never authoritarian capitalist governments that totally don't break in your house to throw you in the cold bitter streets to die because you couldn't afford rent and made the property "unprofitable". The West has no right lecturing anyone over human rights and liberty, they could just discard them from their dictionary if only it didn't serve as great propaganda against their class enemies.
That's because a state is itself an instrument of class warfare first and foremost. In some places the rich wield the state against the people, and in other places the people wield the state against the rich.
NBC is pretty shit that almost every hyperlink is to another nbc news but one of those hyperlinks go to Safeguard Defenders and other go to Amnesty International and both direct to a report made by OHCHR which just cite Adrian Zenz and his propaganda made by Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation.
Holy shit is just impossible to find a source that doesn't have bullshit propaganda. For any lib reading this, if a news source is citing a propaganda piece they are not writing news, they are writing propaganda.
I just took one at random and read the first few lines to make sure it was actually on topic. I have no clue about NBC News credability, I only wanted to illustrate that there were a lot of resources linked in the Wikipedia article, since BrainInABox asked for them.
I'm honestly impressed at the effort you put into this comment. It'll be a while before I read through all these links, so I'm just gonna save this comment and come back to it occasionally.
What not reading anything Deng, Jiang, Hu or Xi wrote will do to a mf. Genuinely amazingly arrogant. Socialism is not Communism and due to living in reality pressing the magic communism button is unfortunately not possible thus we are stuck working through the transitionary period. I wish I had the confidence like you do to be so arrogant on something you know so little about.
If, over the next 10 years, your country became more and more like China, would you go along with the changes? Would you have any problems with the transformation?
Eh. The US has been around just as long as a civilization. If the Chinese get to claim credit for the radically different ancient predecessors to modern China, then the US can claim decent from both the ancient Native American civilizations as well as the ancient Middle Eastern civilizations that are ultimately the predecessors of many countries such as the US.
The US has been around just as long as a civilization. If the Chinese get to claim credit for the radically different ancient predecessors to modern China, then the US can claim decent from both the ancient Native American civilizations
The US is a settler colonial project that carried out an extermination campaign and genocide of hundreds of native tribes, and stole their land. Settlers have no right to claim descent from the people (they're still) trying to exterminate. Unlike South America, there's not even a genetic heritage; the US colonialist just killed every indigenous person they found, or put them into reservations.
Neither the PRC nor most ME countries are settler ones. The number of settler-colonial countries is tiny: the US, Canada, Israel, Australia, New Zealand, are the main ones.
Kinda sounds more like you need other countries' history to be described in the same terms that apply to the United States, so you can dismiss it all as "just the way the world is" without having to examine how that history informs our present.
I specifically mentioned Asian and including China.
So...Please give me now a comparison to western societies like EU countries (or US if it easier to find statistics)
Given that I live in the US Empire, a number of things will go differently for socialist construction. The US Empire is de-industrialized, and is a settler-colony. Decolonization and re-industrialization will both be required. However, certain aspects of China's experience with socialism will also be experienced by the socialist state replacing the US Empire in this hypothetical, and I support that as well.
I really don't know what it's like in China because I've never been there. I know some people who are from China but they've never really talked about anything other than visiting their families. All I hear comes from the US propaganda machine, so I can't really have an informed opinion. This is probably how it should be for like 95% of Americans. We don't need to have an opinion about everything ffs.
Lol try actually advocating against him. They let you speak until the instant they think you might change something and have gotten really good at gauging that.
Yet just as these creative expressions of national resistance reached peak global influence, YouTube jumped in. The platform suspended the Explosive Media channel under baseless allegations of policy violations, effectively silencing a powerful voice of dissent
What followed was a transparent smear campaign by Western media outlets, led by the BBC, aimed at discrediting the creators and justifying the censorship. Their goal was clear: to silence any narrative that dared challenge the official US-Israeli framing of the aggression.
Yeah, how amazing that I can see anti-US propaganda Lego movies whenever I want. That's what will ignite the revolution that makes our lives better, really some serious dissent that can conceivably lead to real change here.
Shitposts and memes about dissent to satiate the mases while all the real political discourse by activists with any real chance of accomplishing anything are censored and criminalised. Look at what happens to journalists objectively covering Iran, Israel, ICE, you name it. Look at how the protestors against oil pipelines or police racial violence are treated. So much freedom of speech for those people.
FYI the thing about a central guy in charge has always been a myth, even since Stalin's time:
What happens with China is essentially you have local committees for things like small towns and villages, where anyone can run for office. Then those many small councils form the pool of candidates for promotion to larger regional and federal committees, forcing would-be bigwigs to work their way up from the bottom. I believe the DPRK uses a similar system.
I hope this hasn't come off as hostile, since I know these conversations can get contentious fast. But you seem like a refreshingly normal person rather than one of the ideologically motivated internet cold warriors we often get around here, so I figured I'd try and add constructively instead of tear down.
My system is clearly the best, and its a shithole of corruption and nepotism. Therefore all other systems must be even corrupter and nepotister, otherwise my system wouldn't be the best Q.E.D.
It's sad that if I literally see ml I assume the truth is inverted. But even then, you assume too much, it's good advice to always assume you're talking to someone smarter than you so you make your argument clear and simple.
Why do you immediately assume communists are the opposite of correct? Not to hyperbolize, but taken to the logical conclusion this is just a belief in fascism.
Why don't you consider Marxist-Leninists to be communists? When people think of communists, they think of the ones that studied Marxism and established socialism in real life based on this study. How are the largest and most historically relevant communists secretly not communists? How are billions of people studying Marxism over the last centuries all wrong?
Some Background: History conditions much of our thinking about our political systems and most Western democracies resemble Rome’s in 60 BC when, as Robin Daverman humorously says, three aristocrats–politician Julius Caesar, military hero Pompey and billionaire Crassus–formed a backroom alliance that dominated the elected senate. The oligarchs ensured that proletarii votes changed nothing and that the masses remained invisible unless they rioted or died in one of the elites’ endless civil wars. Two thousand years later, in Britain’s general election of 1784, the son of the First Earl of Chatham and Hester Grenville, sister of the previous Prime Minister George Grenville, and the son of the First Baron Holland and Lady Caroline Lennox, daughter of Second Duke of Richmond, offered voters offered a choice of dukes. Today, in many European countries (even egalitarian Sweden) ‘democracy’ is a mere veneer over powerful feudal aristocracies that still control their economies. American voters recently watched a former president’s wife competing with a former president’s brother being defeated by a billionaire who installed his daughter and son-in-law in important government positions and ensured that, as John Dewey said, “U.S. politics will remain the shadow cast on society by big business as long as power resides in business for private profit through private control of banking, land and industry, reinforced by command of the press and other means of propaganda”. Most Western politicians are related by marriage or wealth and have, like all hereditary classes, lost sympathy with the broad mass of their fellow citizens to the extent that, as American political scientists Martin Gilens and Benjamin Page found, ‘the preferences of the average American appear to have a near-zero, statistically non-significant impact upon public policy’: Testing Theories of American Politics: Elites, Interest Groups, and Average Citizens
china gets shit on because they don’t have political freedom; there’s no stuff like “you can speak your mind as long as you’re respectful”. it’s just one committee making all the decisions and you can go to jail for disagreeing.
Not even true, common CIA talking point. They don't disagree with their government because 99% of China's citizens are extremely happy with their gov, not because they'll be arrested.
Well that’s impossible. There will always be around a 25% of a population that is not happy with the current state of things. That’s been true for all of history. 99% of people are not happy with their government—ever—unless they (the unhappy ones) are being threatened forced or killed off.
Maybe engage with the western sources assessing figures of most Chinese people being happy then? Look at the evidence to see instead of claiming a comically evil government forcing or killing everyone?
After primitive communism, all of history has been the history of a small ruling class over vast working classes. Socialism is class society, but with the working classes, the majority, on top. You're treating the subject metaphysically and dogmatically assuming true what only in actuality applies to certain contexts.
Most people are alright. Power-hungry individuals responsible for colonialism are outliers and should not have been counted (or allowed to reach/stay in positions of power)
I think a lot of what I hear from western media is communism fear mongering propaganda. But I also think that there are kernels of truth in some of it. China is a large country that I have no doubt is doing a lot of good stuff and a lot of awful stuff. Just like the USA does good stuff and awful stuff.
The Chinese political system is based on whole-process people's democracy, a form of consultative democracy. The local government is directly elected, and then these governments elect people to higher rungs, meaning any candidate at the top level must have worked their way up from the bottom and directly proved themselves. Combining this consultative, ground-up democracy with top-down economic planning is the key to China's success.
I highly recommend Roland Boer's Socialism in Power: On the History and Theory of Socialist Governance. Socialist democracy has been imperfect, but has gone through a number of changes and adaptations over the years as we've learned more from testing theory to practice. Boer goes over the history behind socialist democracy in this textbook.
Xi Jinping is not a "neo-Maoist," he's a Marxist-Leninist, same as all of the leaders of the CPC since Mao.
This doesn't actually bear out concretely in reality. The fact that the government has high approval rates is directly related to the consultative form of democracy practiced in China, and the nature of a socialist state as governed by the working classes. Western states see less support because they are dominated by a tiny minority, whereas China is led by the majority.
It's possible to simultaneously think there are issues with the Chinese government and U.S. government. You could mention 3 June 1989 I'm China or Epstein files in the U.S.
Sure, and most communists do have their issues with the CPC. The important thing is that those issues are based in fact rather than the wild and lurid stories that the Epstein empire tells about the people it's afraid of.
Western chauvinists are so fragile that a simple insistence on facts over propaganda makes them feel like they're in a dire civilizational struggle, and in a way they are. Just on the wrong side.
Its like comparing the Federation and the Empire from elite dangerous lol.
Empire elitists always talking about how bad the Federation is because of the insane capitalist abuse of power, and billions of humans subjected to horrific conditions.
And then Federation liberals talking about how the Empire literally has legalized slavery and a monarchy that runs on the death of humans.
Although technically there's also the stereotypical Asian CEO who has a 15% discount on all ships and modules in his systems, so I guess that's probably the successor to Ali Express lol.
That all being said, the post above this is an article trying to explain how China plating 78 billion trees was a bad idea lmao.
I don't see what in that article says what you're saying.
The amendments changed the law such that Taiwan could start having elections without controlling the mainland which might be termed a de facto acceptance of the situation but formally the claims have not been revoked.
You are doing genocide denial when you claim that genocide can happen without being accompanied by mass death. Genocide is the crime of crimes because it always involves mass slaughter of innocent people, to bring about their end. The invention of """cultural genocide""" without any of the accompanying mass violence effectively whitewashes genocide as a concept.
Accepting all that, that's still essentially colonization, no?
Is there nuance I'm missing here? China's seemingly codified cultural repression genuinely makes it hard for me to consider supporting them, whether or not they advance the cause of the average worker
They also don't do cultural genocide, look at videos of random tourists visiting Xinjiang and you'll see some locals speaking Uyghur, you'll see mosques, museums, traditional Uyghur food, etc. The previous repression was meant to curve terrorism, it seems to have worked, and things have relaxed afterwards. I don't see how any of this fits the picture of colonialism.
Well it certainly doesn't fit the picture I was described! I was told Uyghers were being killed in some cases, and rehoused en masse in others.
If what you're saying is right, and the Uygher culture is allowed to continue unharried outside of radical minorities then I would agree that doesn't really compare to the horrors of colonization!
Is it actually illegal to be queer there too? Or is that also exaggerated?
It isn't illegal to be queer, but gay marriage isn't really legal either. It's an upbill battle ironically held back by the fact that the PRC is a democratic country, and the older generations are still more socially conservative. As time goes on it has been getting better.
In addition to the older generations thinking queerness is yucky, there's also the problem of the West using our rights as a bludgeon to justify sanctions and wars. I've seen Westerners try to justify the genocide in Gaza because "they'd throw you off a roof for being queer!" As if Israel isn't actively blackmailing us into being informants by threatening to out us to our families.
This is all to say that anti-queer sentiment has become deeply rooted among the masses, themselves.
Ah, bummer. I'm aware of how it's used in identity politics, but I'd never considered how that use might foster distrust in an already culturally repressive populace. Sounds complicated, and I'm sure the aftereffects of imperialism haven't done anything to help the nations they left devastated feel positively about a trend they might identify as foreign in that way.
I largely agree, though Israel has used many nonlethal methods for a long time. There is a lot of violence involved in the process that doesn't require death. Forced relocation is a pretty classic tactic, for example, which Israe has made ample use of in their ongoing genocide
The violence requires death, is the thing. People don't just allow themselves to be forcibly relocated (as per your example), they will fight to stay on their land unless they face the threat of death (and many do stay, and die). Behind every "nonlethal" process is a death machine that makes it possible in the first place. That's why colonization is always accomplished through mass death.
I'm trying not to get too caught up in semantics here. It sounds like you're saying that the relocation that the Chinese government puts Uygher people through cannot be comparable to the relocation that other cultures have been put through, and that the lack of a mass death toll is serviceable evidence for that claim. Do I have that correct?
If so, it's a good point! I think I had a presumption that the true nature of their (and any government's) crimes was hidden. It does seem a bit far-fetched that it would be possible to cover up the kind of mass death that you're saying would come with a colonization, so it's a more reasonable metric than just making assumptions based on vibes I suppose. You've at least given me a less propagandizeable thing to research ^_^
China isn't preventing or discouraging intermarrying or intermixing with Uighurs, which is a key feature of apartheid. Neither do they have to use separate lanes of the road, carry special IDs marking their ethnicity, or forced to use different emergency shelters.
I use those examples because the real-world example of apartheid, Israel, is currently doing all of those things today.
I agree. I'm saying apartheid could be used to describe what many liberals believe is happening with Uighurs in Xinjiang, not what is actually going on.
Although even then I don't think many people are arguing Uighurs are seperated legally in the way that you described anyway.
Downplay what? A reeducation/deradicalization program isn't fucking genocide on its own, it has to be accompanied by mass death, and when you say it is you are the one that's donwplaying the crime of genocide as a concept. Even the boarding schools they used in the genocide in North America had mass graves, because genocide is always accompanied by mass death and to claim otherwise is whitewashing.
It's the crime of crimes because it's the worst violence that can be inflicted on a group.
You actually are experiencing the propaganda being turned down, it's just that a fish doesn't notice the water until it's gone. The anti-China orthodoxy that is the default in western ruling class political thought is the astroturfed position, not the other way around. In a non-corporate internet environment, you're seeing actual public opinion seep through the cracks.
Most people here were taught the same bs about China and we broke away from that by sitting down, reading and looking at the (lack of) evidence for everything they're accused of. China isn't perfect, none of us claim it is, it also isn't at all what state department propaganda claims
I appreciate the term "imperialistic ambitions," because it acknowledges that China hasn't actually done stuff that you could plausibly call imperialist, so all you can do is criticize stuff that they might possibly want to do someday.
My god the comments. You are perfectly allowed to not know much about a country. I don't know about PRC either. But I know to keep my mouth shut on matters I don't know about. I don't go on parroting propaganda for those things.
It's all about geography , if China was on the map like Australia or more like the US they wouldn't have any problems if they had plenty of space and no neighbors.
"They shouldn't have built their country near our military bases"
Can't understand what you're saying. Can you elaborate? The propaganda against China is not coming from its neighbours as far as I know.
I was saying it's just luck of the draw, like the US got a great position that makes it have simple easy borders.
How is it even relevant to my original comment?
What no political theory does to a mf
this is talking about the romans right?
Among others yes. The Greeks who invented democracy™️ also had a slave system.
Here's the rest of the text (I see I missed the source)
https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/stalin/works/1938/09.htm
thanks.
I don't care if they are against capitalism, I'm not simping for authoritarians.
What's an authoritarian?
State > people
So what's a non-authoritarian state?
A state the exists as a servant to a citizenry that is not limited to class or ethnicity. A state served as a safeguard to the human rights of all humans within its sovereignty.
It also serves as a mechanism to efficiently direct resources to human advancement as basic needs are automated.
You just described the PRC, and notably not capitalist dictatorships, whose governments don't represent their people / working class, but the interests of capitalists only.
You desperately need to get past this poli-sci-intro-level understanding of what states are. States are organizations of force for one class (meaning in Marxism their relationship to production) to oppress another. The USA and other liberal countries are capitalist dictatorships over workers, while the PRC is a worker's dictatorship over capital.
Here are some resources:
So, China
I meant like can you give an example of one
Also:
So like China
Finland
Finland? Where despite years of protest by the people, the state continues to buy Israeli weapons and cooperate with the zionist entity in the development of military tech and spyware? The state currently ignoring the very clear wishes of it's people in order to aid and abet a historically unpopular genocide?
The country that was a Nazi ally and didn't drop the swastika from their air force insignia until 2025? Finland the country currently implementing mass austerity while giving tax cuts to the rich? That Finland?
Jesus, at this point why don't you just admit that by "non-authoritarian" you just mean "white".
Finland is an imperialist country governed by capitalists.
those right wing warmongering Russophobe US bootlickers?
The people control the state in China, though.
The communist party controls the state, and not everyone is a member.
No just one out of every 14 people, which you may notice is many thousands of times more democratic than any of the western so-called democracies by percentage.
So 13 out of 14 people do not belong to the only political coalition (the 8 parties with 700,000 members total don't really count as "opposition parties") that is legally allowed in their country?
In reference to my original post, we agree that authoritarianism is bad and you are arguing the case that China and the CCP is not authoritarian, correct?
They seem to be doing a pretty good job
No. We disagree that "authoritarianism" is a meaningful distinction when every government exists by authority. Might as well call it "badguyism"
The communist party is a working class party. What exactly do you think the purpose of a party is? And what do you think class is? You seem confused on each.
So then every country is authoritarian, because no country is controlled by a party that every citizen is a member of.
Lol America, land of the free, they literally arrested anyone who said they were a communist and confiscated your gold because they said it was illegal.
Yet China is frowned upon.
Flash news, America is authoritarian
But which countries are not authoritarian, and why?
These things exist in degrees.
Fuck Donald J Trump. I hope the rat bastard dies shitting himself inside out.
Try talking like that about Xi on Chinese social media.
That was supposed to be criticism?
Liberals believe hating something is critique. That's why they claim Lemmy.ml bans people for "criticizing" socialist countries, when in reality their "critique" is just saying "fuck xyz."
Mostly their critique, as you said, is just plain insulting. Often it is not to an ideology or a system, but a person or people. Like the person above just insulted not the US, not capitalism, not western imperialism, but Trump, a single person. What is even the point?
It's the type of unseriousness that results from not engaging with real political activism, and not engaging with socialist theory.
Whataboutism.
Thought terminating cliche used by the unintelligent and uninformed to avoid reckoning with reality beyond vibes.
"non authoritarian governments are known to implement mass firewalls and online surveillance"
Every country should be blocking the US surveillance giants, its extremely naive for countries to be letting facebook, twitter, reddit, and google operate unhindered.
There' no such thing as a "non-authoritarian" state or other myths like the tooth-fairy, but even if they existed, then it'd be hard to argue that letting the US surveillance state operate freely within your borders is somehow "non-authoritarian". The US is more likely than any other country to use the intelligence they've gained learned to harm you physically. See the Phoenix Program.
Literally every government with the capability to control information is doing that, and frankly the rise of bleach-injecting covid denialist flat earth tradwife inflluencers has proven China right to do so.
From Merriam-Webster
" of authoritarian
1 relating to, or favoring blind submission to [authority].
2 relating to, or favoring a concentration of power in a leader or an elite not constitutionally responsible to the people
So like, objectively not China? Because their ruling party consists of 90 million members and they're constantly debating shit, and enjoy an incredibly high satisfaction rate among non-party members?
It's been over 100 million since 2024
104 milliion last I checked.
Would a non-aurhoritarian government be able to institute a one-child policy like China?
Yes, of course they could. Individual people make the decision to practice birth control every day, and a vast democratic assembly of millions voted in by their peers can make that decision as well. Meanwhile in the US, reproductive policy is dictated by nine unelected ministers: an objectively far less democratic process, yet our media never describes the US government as "authoritarian." Because it's not a term meant to usefully delineate important differences in form and function, it's a vibes based epithet meant to be wielded against geopolitical enemies of capitalism. It's a thought-terminating cliche, deployed highly selectively against anti-imperialist societies to artificially cast proletarian authority as uniquely evil while tacticly normalizing the authority of billionaires and corporations.
In practice, authoritarianism is when you are objectively more democratic in function and policy than western countries, but commit the cardinal sin of using that authority to safeguard your sovereignty, people and resources from the inhumanity of global capitalism.
Given the vagueness of your definition, yes absolutely.
i love that it has the caveat in the second definition abt a constitution. like, no guys, totslly not us, look at this definition we created to show how we arent authoritarian
You clearly don't understand the purpose of the firewall and the online surveillance is no more than any other country but at least our government is accountable to us as opposed to owned by capital.
Are they accountable to you or to party members?
To us. There's a reason that even from Harvard's research the government has a 95+% approval.
Direct elections reach the township and county levels where voters choose deputies to local people's congresses. These grassroots deputies constitute the overwhelming majority of all deputies nationwide. Advancement to higher levels requires proven service at lower rungs, ensuring every national deputy has worked up from local material conditions and remains accountable to the masses below.
Grassroots legislative liaison stations and community consultation channels ensure mass input shapes policy at every stage, making democracy a daily practice not a periodic (meaningless) ritual. Whole-process people's democracy embeds consultation and pilot programs into governance: policies are tested locally, refined through mass feedback, then scaled nationally. This grounds decisions in what we want and need.
All 55 ethnic minorities hold guaranteed representation in the NPC. Farmers and labourers comprise roughly 15% of deputies while professionals and technical personnel make up the remainder.
Even besides all that if you just look at what the Chinese government does as opposed to those owned by capital. Mass poverty alleviation, anticorruption at all levels, massive investment in socially profitable but monetarily unprofitable public services, deflating the housing bubble. These are not the actions of a government only looking out for a select few.
And also the CPC has over 100million members since 2024 that 1 in 14 people are party members not to mind those who aren't but are active in consulting due to their position such as most engineers and scientists.
You should be skeptical of any poll or survey that presents that level of agreement on anything with that breadth of societal implications.
How do you square the whole Hong Kong protests in regards to the extradition laws? Or the aggression towards Taiwan?
Just because the anglosphere is a socioeconomic nightmare realm of genocide, immiseration and omnipresent propaganda where everyone is at each other's throats doesn't mean everywhere else is too.
What you're saying is you want to be suspicious of data that paints other places in a better light than us, because it makes you feel bad. You then rationalize this desire as "wisdom" while continuing to apply it selectively against societies your government has told you to hate.
I was born and raised here. The VPN is for the firewall which has many reasons to exist and I support, also they're not illegal. Criticising the government is super common but mostly over mundane stuff because that's what people care about (there's a reason the approval even according to Harvard is 95+%). You people are always so arrogant while being so uninformed it's amazing.
Making a statement that online surveillance there is no different from elsewhere will get you that kind of response tbh. It is measurably worse.
It simply isn't. Remember snowden? The NSA? TAO? Pegasus? Our government is simply more open and honest with us (might be a side effect of having real democracy as opposed to a charade put on by bought candidates every 4 years). Also before you say that's just America, Europe are American vassal states all of these and more (since this is just what has leaked) are deployed against Europeans too and intel is shared in deals like five eyes.
Source: it is known
You are literally talking to a Chinese person from China, smug liberal dipshittery knows no bounds
Then they fit the second part, living in ignorance. Online surveillance there is measurably worse.
Edit: just for clarity, I'm not "china bad" in my worldview but claims they their online surveillance is the same as elsewhere is utter nonsense and either from ignorance or indoctrination.
You think they're posting on Lemmy without a VPN?
The firewall was created to foster and protect China’s fledgling digital infrastructure and data sovereignty. Many countries regulate foreign platforms and data flows. China built its own ecosystem instead of depending on foreign companies. We have seen what happens when foreign platforms operate without local oversight: Facebook facilitating genocide in Myanmar, coordinated anti-vax disinformation campaigns in Southeast Asia, algorithm-driven radicalization. The firewall makes those kinds of external influence operations harder or close to impossible to run at scale. I support it and so do many others as the alternative is plain to see. Also everyone has a VPN we're not living in ignorance it is in fact people like yourself who are massively ignorant about us and our country.
"Simping" here meaning "viewing with anything less than total antipathy"
Define authoritarian. The PRC spent decades of anti-colonial struggle defeating British imperialists, Japanese imperialists, feudal reactionaries, and then US imperialists. Do you know more than them about how to defeat vicious empires, "non-authoritarianly"?
The working classes use state authority for pro-social policy and to prebent capitalists from gaining political power, as opposed to capitalist authority for pro-profit policy and to prevent the working classes from gaining political power. Authority has a class dynamic, analysis without class erases the core distinction.
Aah yes unlike never authoritarian capitalist governments that totally don't break in your house to throw you in the cold bitter streets to die because you couldn't afford rent and made the property "unprofitable". The West has no right lecturing anyone over human rights and liberty, they could just discard them from their dictionary if only it didn't serve as great propaganda against their class enemies.
I haven’t seen a single country that doesn’t love to divide by class.
That's because a state is itself an instrument of class warfare first and foremost. In some places the rich wield the state against the people, and in other places the people wield the state against the rich.
Because America are the thoughtful, non violent democrats, who represent the people, and never start illegal wars?
This is still happening: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Uyghurs_in_China
So let’s play a game. The USA is bad, and China is bad. Your turn.
Your assessment of China is based on state department propaganda
And yours is based on??????
Are you saying you don't believe in the treatment of wighurs
Are you saying you don't believe in the white genocide going on in south africa right now?
Are you saying you don't believe that Hamas beheaded 40 babies?
It's spelled "Uyghurs", by the way
Nice non answer
"Your argument doesn't count because I have no response to it!"
It's only a non-answer if you have a sub-canine ability to process patterns
Do you deny that Saddam Hussein was building weapons of mass destruction and had to be toppled?
https://www.qiaocollective.com/education/xinjiang
And you believe this is the truth.
The burden of proof is on you. I can only provide context for the claims that have been raised. If you look at the sources they're all western
You believe in a genocide with literally no single proof
Yeah? Got any primary sources that aren't a decade old?
I have not stake in this, but here you go: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/china-uyghur-uighur-turkey-oppression-rcna97238. I took one at random that was semi-recent and look somewhat relevant.
Just look at the date of the references on Wikipedia and you will find plenty.
This shit is so tiring.
NBC is pretty shit that almost every hyperlink is to another nbc news but one of those hyperlinks go to Safeguard Defenders and other go to Amnesty International and both direct to a report made by OHCHR which just cite Adrian Zenz and his propaganda made by Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation.
Holy shit is just impossible to find a source that doesn't have bullshit propaganda. For any lib reading this, if a news source is citing a propaganda piece they are not writing news, they are writing propaganda.
I just took one at random and read the first few lines to make sure it was actually on topic. I have no clue about NBC News credability, I only wanted to illustrate that there were a lot of resources linked in the Wikipedia article, since BrainInABox asked for them.
I asked for a fucking primary source and you instead give me an NBC article you "skimmed the first few lines" of.
My fucking God, you people are beyond parody.
Yeah and all of them go back to Adrian Zenz.
You talking about a fucking genocide "reading a few lines" is insulting.
Fucking hell, I swear you people can't read
Why is my link not a primary source?
Are you fucking serious right now?
If the US is bad, why do you believe what they say about others?
Because I don't live in a solipsism that concludes nothing is real?
They're not even against capitalism. They only pay lip service to anti-capitalism.
This must go so hard if you know literally fucking nothing about China.
👍
Wrong.
Is China State Capitalist?
I'm honestly impressed at the effort you put into this comment. It'll be a while before I read through all these links, so I'm just gonna save this comment and come back to it occasionally.
They have a much larger one here.
What not reading anything Deng, Jiang, Hu or Xi wrote will do to a mf. Genuinely amazingly arrogant. Socialism is not Communism and due to living in reality pressing the magic communism button is unfortunately not possible thus we are stuck working through the transitionary period. I wish I had the confidence like you do to be so arrogant on something you know so little about.
Go back to Reddit
Oh no! You've poked the liberal hive now LMBO
If, over the next 10 years, your country became more and more like China, would you go along with the changes? Would you have any problems with the transformation?
objectively better than just about any other place
They’ve been around, as a civilization, for over 5,000 years. I’d like to think you don’t make it that long without doing a thing or 2 right.
Eh. The US has been around just as long as a civilization. If the Chinese get to claim credit for the radically different ancient predecessors to modern China, then the US can claim decent from both the ancient Native American civilizations as well as the ancient Middle Eastern civilizations that are ultimately the predecessors of many countries such as the US.
The US is a settler colonial project that carried out an extermination campaign and genocide of hundreds of native tribes, and stole their land. Settlers have no right to claim descent from the people (they're still) trying to exterminate. Unlike South America, there's not even a genetic heritage; the US colonialist just killed every indigenous person they found, or put them into reservations.
Neither the PRC nor most ME countries are settler ones. The number of settler-colonial countries is tiny: the US, Canada, Israel, Australia, New Zealand, are the main ones.
Kinda sounds more like you need other countries' history to be described in the same terms that apply to the United States, so you can dismiss it all as "just the way the world is" without having to examine how that history informs our present.
Your list should include pros and cons. Which is your country?
The education is also non-competitive and crippling for the not-so-gifted students, yes?
Because I don't hear about many student suicides (specifically due to stress and pressure) outside of the Asian countries.
Selective hearing, racist edition
incredible
https://lemmy.ml/post/46354189
I specifically mentioned Asian and including China.
So...Please give me now a comparison to western societies like EU countries (or US if it easier to find statistics)
C O P E
You can just admit to being wrong without trying to insult everyone that was correct.
Sorry that you got banned and hexbear's "left unity" shit on you. Left wing chuds hate being questioned.
Given that I live in the US Empire, a number of things will go differently for socialist construction. The US Empire is de-industrialized, and is a settler-colony. Decolonization and re-industrialization will both be required. However, certain aspects of China's experience with socialism will also be experienced by the socialist state replacing the US Empire in this hypothetical, and I support that as well.
I really don't know what it's like in China because I've never been there. I know some people who are from China but they've never really talked about anything other than visiting their families. All I hear comes from the US propaganda machine, so I can't really have an informed opinion. This is probably how it should be for like 95% of Americans. We don't need to have an opinion about everything ffs.
And the West definitely, absolutely has that
To be fair i speak my mind in a disrespectful way daily of the shit stained leader of the usa. They just let me do it.
Lol try actually advocating against him. They let you speak until the instant they think you might change something and have gotten really good at gauging that.
i mean yeah, literally, look at how the Iranian regime is allowed to post its anti-US propaganda lego movies on Twitter.
edit: nvm that was a bad take.
Look at how many people have been arrested and jailed for saying "From the river to the sea"
yeah the UK is going downhill very quickly and it's evident in how nervously they respond to that saying.
Who said anything about the UK?
Guess you haven't been following the news lately.
i indeed only found out about that rn
Yeah, how amazing that I can see anti-US propaganda Lego movies whenever I want. That's what will ignite the revolution that makes our lives better, really some serious dissent that can conceivably lead to real change here.
Shitposts and memes about dissent to satiate the mases while all the real political discourse by activists with any real chance of accomplishing anything are censored and criminalised. Look at what happens to journalists objectively covering Iran, Israel, ICE, you name it. Look at how the protestors against oil pipelines or police racial violence are treated. So much freedom of speech for those people.
Since when is Iran a western country?? LMBO! Sounds like you just proved their point
FYI the thing about a central guy in charge has always been a myth, even since Stalin's time:
What happens with China is essentially you have local committees for things like small towns and villages, where anyone can run for office. Then those many small councils form the pool of candidates for promotion to larger regional and federal committees, forcing would-be bigwigs to work their way up from the bottom. I believe the DPRK uses a similar system.
I hope this hasn't come off as hostile, since I know these conversations can get contentious fast. But you seem like a refreshingly normal person rather than one of the ideologically motivated internet cold warriors we often get around here, so I figured I'd try and add constructively instead of tear down.
hehe thanks, i try to be.
Do you have a source for this that isn’t an easily-generatable png? I’m having trouble finding it.
But a soviet style system like that is ripe for corruption and nepotism.
My system is clearly the best, and its a shithole of corruption and nepotism. Therefore all other systems must be even corrupter and nepotister, otherwise my system wouldn't be the best Q.E.D.
It's sad that if I literally see ml I assume the truth is inverted. But even then, you assume too much, it's good advice to always assume you're talking to someone smarter than you so you make your argument clear and simple.
Why do you immediately assume communists are the opposite of correct? Not to hyperbolize, but taken to the logical conclusion this is just a belief in fascism.
Why don't you consider Marxist-Leninists to be communists? When people think of communists, they think of the ones that studied Marxism and established socialism in real life based on this study. How are the largest and most historically relevant communists secretly not communists? How are billions of people studying Marxism over the last centuries all wrong?
Let's try this: The sun is not blue.
The opposite. From here:
You know nothing about China's political system except the white-supremacist tropes you've ingested about it.
Not even true, common CIA talking point. They don't disagree with their government because 99% of China's citizens are extremely happy with their gov, not because they'll be arrested.
Well that’s impossible. There will always be around a 25% of a population that is not happy with the current state of things. That’s been true for all of history. 99% of people are not happy with their government—ever—unless they (the unhappy ones) are being threatened forced or killed off.
Maybe engage with the western sources assessing figures of most Chinese people being happy then? Look at the evidence to see instead of claiming a comically evil government forcing or killing everyone?
The survey team found that compared to public opinion patterns in the U.S., in China there was very high satisfaction with the central government. In 2016, the last year the survey was conducted, 95.5 percent of respondents were either “relatively satisfied” or “highly satisfied” with Beijing. In contrast to these findings, Gallup reported in January of this year that their latest polling on U.S. citizen satisfaction with the American federal government revealed only 38 percent of respondents were satisfied with the federal government. -Harvard Ash Center
After primitive communism, all of history has been the history of a small ruling class over vast working classes. Socialism is class society, but with the working classes, the majority, on top. You're treating the subject metaphysically and dogmatically assuming true what only in actuality applies to certain contexts.
All states are bad, but if we're talking about which ones are arguably better or worse on the world stage...
"USA USA USA, WE'RE NUMBER 1!"
Proudly colonizing for 250 years?
Seems to be what people do. America isn’t the first or the only one. People are shit is that your argument?
"All people are colonizers. Those who aren't colonizing aren't people" - colonizer brain in action.
"If I don't steal it, someone else will"
That's actually a statistical error.
Most people are alright. Power-hungry individuals responsible for colonialism are outliers and should not have been counted (or allowed to reach/stay in positions of power)
You forget the part where they hear China is bad from their friends
I think a lot of what I hear from western media is communism fear mongering propaganda. But I also think that there are kernels of truth in some of it. China is a large country that I have no doubt is doing a lot of good stuff and a lot of awful stuff. Just like the USA does good stuff and awful stuff.
The Chinese political system is based on whole-process people's democracy, a form of consultative democracy. The local government is directly elected, and then these governments elect people to higher rungs, meaning any candidate at the top level must have worked their way up from the bottom and directly proved themselves. Combining this consultative, ground-up democracy with top-down economic planning is the key to China's success.
I highly recommend Roland Boer's Socialism in Power: On the History and Theory of Socialist Governance. Socialist democracy has been imperfect, but has gone through a number of changes and adaptations over the years as we've learned more from testing theory to practice. Boer goes over the history behind socialist democracy in this textbook.
Xi Jinping is not a "neo-Maoist," he's a Marxist-Leninist, same as all of the leaders of the CPC since Mao.
This doesn't actually bear out concretely in reality. The fact that the government has high approval rates is directly related to the consultative form of democracy practiced in China, and the nature of a socialist state as governed by the working classes. Western states see less support because they are dominated by a tiny minority, whereas China is led by the majority.
China is bad, just not nearly as bad as the US anymore.
It's possible to simultaneously think there are issues with the Chinese government and U.S. government. You could mention 3 June 1989 I'm China or Epstein files in the U.S.
Sure, and most communists do have their issues with the CPC. The important thing is that those issues are based in fact rather than the wild and lurid stories that the Epstein empire tells about the people it's afraid of.
If you have to go back forty years to find an issue with China, that's incredibly complimentary.
What exactly did happen in tianimen square that is equivelent to the epstien files?
See this is how I know yall aren’t serious.
Having acquired the knowledge that all the enemies to the empire weren't serious, the protagonist of reality went back to brunch. The end.
Found the "boTh cAn bE bAd" lib comment
Clearly not here! Apparently only praise for China allowed!
Not allowed to dislike all governments! Only western ones!
Western chauvinists are so fragile that a simple insistence on facts over propaganda makes them feel like they're in a dire civilizational struggle, and in a way they are. Just on the wrong side.
Its like comparing the Federation and the Empire from elite dangerous lol.
Empire elitists always talking about how bad the Federation is because of the insane capitalist abuse of power, and billions of humans subjected to horrific conditions.
And then Federation liberals talking about how the Empire literally has legalized slavery and a monarchy that runs on the death of humans.
Although technically there's also the stereotypical Asian CEO who has a 15% discount on all ships and modules in his systems, so I guess that's probably the successor to Ali Express lol.
That all being said, the post above this is an article trying to explain how China plating 78 billion trees was a bad idea lmao.
Which china does this refer to?
The one recognized by 99% of the world's population, except for a few tiny island nations / members of OAS (a US org) bribed by the US.
ROC doesn't claim to legitimately rule China anymore. That was just KMT's delusion, and they're no longer in power.
Isn't it in their constitution?
Not since https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Additional_Articles_of_the_Constitution_of_the_Republic_of_China
I don't see what in that article says what you're saying.
The amendments changed the law such that Taiwan could start having elections without controlling the mainland which might be termed a de facto acceptance of the situation but formally the claims have not been revoked.
After these articles, the "free area" was defined to include just the areas that ROC controls, so the parliament no longer has representatives for mainland Chinese provinces. Based on that, the parliament no longer claims to represent all of China, and the ruling DPP asserts that Taiwan is a separate sovereign state from China. https://jhulr.org/2024/06/12/taiwans-constitutional-battle-the-case-for-the-republic-of-china-roc-constitution/
I'm an American. China might not be bad, but they ain't going to be good to me. America isn't good to me either.
America is not a foreign country to you, unlike China.
Lol Uyghurs amiright? 😂
🤔
Lol lets worry about a CIA fake genocide op instead of the real ones happening like in Gaza amiright fellow zionazis? 😂
Violence breeds violence, more news at 11.
Can you find evidence of even a single dead Uyghur?
Yeah, my buddy Uyghur Jim. He told me that China killed him, so we can't hang out any more.
RIP, hope he gets better
You are doing genocide denial when you claim that genocide can happen without being accompanied by mass death. Genocide is the crime of crimes because it always involves mass slaughter of innocent people, to bring about their end. The invention of """cultural genocide""" without any of the accompanying mass violence effectively whitewashes genocide as a concept.
I'm genuinely undereducated here, not an op...
Accepting all that, that's still essentially colonization, no?
Is there nuance I'm missing here? China's seemingly codified cultural repression genuinely makes it hard for me to consider supporting them, whether or not they advance the cause of the average worker
They also don't do cultural genocide, look at videos of random tourists visiting Xinjiang and you'll see some locals speaking Uyghur, you'll see mosques, museums, traditional Uyghur food, etc. The previous repression was meant to curve terrorism, it seems to have worked, and things have relaxed afterwards. I don't see how any of this fits the picture of colonialism.
Well it certainly doesn't fit the picture I was described! I was told Uyghers were being killed in some cases, and rehoused en masse in others.
If what you're saying is right, and the Uygher culture is allowed to continue unharried outside of radical minorities then I would agree that doesn't really compare to the horrors of colonization!
Is it actually illegal to be queer there too? Or is that also exaggerated?
It isn't illegal to be queer, but gay marriage isn't really legal either. It's an upbill battle ironically held back by the fact that the PRC is a democratic country, and the older generations are still more socially conservative. As time goes on it has been getting better.
God damn, you actually checked it out. I'm genuinely not used to that level of intellectual honesty on the internet
In addition to the older generations thinking queerness is yucky, there's also the problem of the West using our rights as a bludgeon to justify sanctions and wars. I've seen Westerners try to justify the genocide in Gaza because "they'd throw you off a roof for being queer!" As if Israel isn't actively blackmailing us into being informants by threatening to out us to our families.
This is all to say that anti-queer sentiment has become deeply rooted among the masses, themselves.
Ah, bummer. I'm aware of how it's used in identity politics, but I'd never considered how that use might foster distrust in an already culturally repressive populace. Sounds complicated, and I'm sure the aftereffects of imperialism haven't done anything to help the nations they left devastated feel positively about a trend they might identify as foreign in that way.
Meant to curb terrorism. Lol. Sure.
We weren’t all born yesterday. We’ve heard all this before.
In recent years, ETIM has set up bases outside China to train terrorists and has dispatched its members to China to plot and execute terrorist acts including bombing buses, cinemas, department stores, markets and hotels. ETIM has also undertaken assassinations and arson attacks and has carried out terrorist attacks against Chinese targets abroad. -The UN
There's literal footage of the terrorist acts. Do you expect China to let terrorists slaughter civilians?
When we look at how colonization in the real world happens we see it is accomplished, again, through mass death.
See: Israel
I largely agree, though Israel has used many nonlethal methods for a long time. There is a lot of violence involved in the process that doesn't require death. Forced relocation is a pretty classic tactic, for example, which Israe has made ample use of in their ongoing genocide
The violence requires death, is the thing. People don't just allow themselves to be forcibly relocated (as per your example), they will fight to stay on their land unless they face the threat of death (and many do stay, and die). Behind every "nonlethal" process is a death machine that makes it possible in the first place. That's why colonization is always accomplished through mass death.
I'm trying not to get too caught up in semantics here. It sounds like you're saying that the relocation that the Chinese government puts Uygher people through cannot be comparable to the relocation that other cultures have been put through, and that the lack of a mass death toll is serviceable evidence for that claim. Do I have that correct?
If so, it's a good point! I think I had a presumption that the true nature of their (and any government's) crimes was hidden. It does seem a bit far-fetched that it would be possible to cover up the kind of mass death that you're saying would come with a colonization, so it's a more reasonable metric than just making assumptions based on vibes I suppose. You've at least given me a less propagandizeable thing to research ^_^
I suppose apartheid can be used instead of cultural genocide.
China isn't preventing or discouraging intermarrying or intermixing with Uighurs, which is a key feature of apartheid. Neither do they have to use separate lanes of the road, carry special IDs marking their ethnicity, or forced to use different emergency shelters.
I use those examples because the real-world example of apartheid, Israel, is currently doing all of those things today.
I agree. I'm saying apartheid could be used to describe what many liberals believe is happening with Uighurs in Xinjiang, not what is actually going on.
Although even then I don't think many people are arguing Uighurs are seperated legally in the way that you described anyway.
It would be just as incorrect
Lol bro over here trying to downplay the horrific treatment of a whole people and claim everyone else is the problem 😂
Oh wow, a transphobic lib? So surprising.
Downplay what? A reeducation/deradicalization program isn't fucking genocide on its own, it has to be accompanied by mass death, and when you say it is you are the one that's donwplaying the crime of genocide as a concept. Even the boarding schools they used in the genocide in North America had mass graves, because genocide is always accompanied by mass death and to claim otherwise is whitewashing.
It's the crime of crimes because it's the worst violence that can be inflicted on a group.
So I’m not trying to defend the other poster but genocide by definition does not have to include mass death. And can include any of the following
In the real world there hasn't been a genocide that didn't involve mass death. 3, 4, and 5 all require a lot of killing to actually work.
A): Hey what do you think about the Russian intervention in the Ukranian civil war, and
B) The horrific treatment such as?
You actually are experiencing the propaganda being turned down, it's just that a fish doesn't notice the water until it's gone. The anti-China orthodoxy that is the default in western ruling class political thought is the astroturfed position, not the other way around. In a non-corporate internet environment, you're seeing actual public opinion seep through the cracks.
A lot of pro Zionism lately especially out of .world, can we turn the zionazis down a bit.
Most people here were taught the same bs about China and we broke away from that by sitting down, reading and looking at the (lack of) evidence for everything they're accused of. China isn't perfect, none of us claim it is, it also isn't at all what state department propaganda claims
It's a lemmy.ml community, so don't be too surprised. The ml in lemmy.ml is literally marxist-leninist, even if it's just a meme community, lol.
Average .world zionazi comment LMBO!
Lemmygrad.ml is Marxist-Leninist, Lemmy.ml is the dev instance and the devs are MLs, so there's a lot of overlap but nothing firm.
Please define imperialism and explain what imperialist ambitions China has.
I appreciate the term "imperialistic ambitions," because it acknowledges that China hasn't actually done stuff that you could plausibly call imperialist, so all you can do is criticize stuff that they might possibly want to do someday.
Literally the spongebob "No, but are we gonna wait around until he does?"
You're who this meme is about