The last stars will burn out in 120 trillion years
We think. We still haven't solved things like the dark matter/energy problem. The answer to that alone could drastically change what we estimate will happen in the distant future.
Stuff only burns for so long. We might learn more about the geometry of space and that there is more out there at greater distances where maybe even other Big bangs are possible but there is a certain maximum amount of time that a star can exist.
Over the time scales of the life of a proton the maximum variability in the amount of time a star can burn is a rounding error against the scale of numbers needed to express the amount of time it takes for hawking radiation to reduce black holes to ultra long wavelengths of infrared radiation.
Yes, but we don't have proof that universe can't generate new matter. For all we know there is a mechanism in universe not yet observed that can create new matter out of little vacuum and more stars will keep forming.
So technically all we can say is, it's likely that stars will die out in 1000 trillion years.
Yes, but we don’t have proof that universe can’t generate new matter.
True... we also don't have proof there isn't a tea pot orbiting our Sun since it's creation, either.
However, there's also a complete lack of evidence of it.
You cannot prove a negative. The evidence says no new matter can be created. No evidence that new matter gets created. Therefore, we work on the model of no new matter creation.
On these scales, the accuracy of our observations should reduce our confidence though. It doesn't make sense to confidently say that, in 200 trillion years there will be no stars, because our observations of the rate of new matter creation (approximately zero) have a margin of error which allows for there to still be some
I do also want to point out that stuff like "The conservation of energy" law, in other words, that energy cannot be created or destroyed, does not hold for our universe with our current models. An expanding universe violates the time-translation symmetry
This is our current models. This is what our current physics says. And we know it's incomplete.
When it comes to scientific predictions, you always, always, need the caveat, "under our current model of".
But in this case, this “theory” has a precedent. This energy and matter we have now must have come from somewhere. Whatever your personal belief on the matter is, what’s to say that event can’t happen again? If a god created the universe, then surely he can pump some more into it.
That’s something I’ll never be able to understand. Something having no beginning. Just like I’ll never be able to understand a moment before the big bang, or at the moment of the singularity, where time did could not exist. If there’s no time, how can anything, like the big bang, happen? Unfortunately the singularity is something we know nothing about whatsoever, and probably will never know.
I mean, have you considered that the expansion of the universe generates or increases the total energy in the universe?
As stars move apart, they gain both potential energy with respect to other stars, because greater distance from gravity sources means greater potential energy, but they also gain kinetic energy as they accelerate away from other objects. So, their mechanical energy (potential + kinetic energy) increases over time. Maybe somebody could build a clever machine out of this to harvest that energy?
We also haven't tried every possible configuration of atoms to see if anything creates a portal to an infinite energy dimension or a perpetual motion machine or something we can use to make our own stars
Only up to iron is star poop. Anything heavier tends to be created by novae of various sizes. Technically nothing comes from the black hole, but many of the very heavy elements are birthed along side black holes.
Basically, if you assume it's possible to upload our intelligence to a computer and run it, then you can keep the energy going to run it for a very, very long time. Well past the heat death of the rest of the universe. It depends on running things in an on and off state to conserve energy for trillions of years. Subjectively, the people in there wouldn't notice that and would simply see their active lifespans go for trillions of years. It's not clear what the limit would actually be.
It's something like Zeno's Paradox. You cut things in half each cycle, but never quite get to zero.
I saw that pop up as a recommendation the other day but forgot to watch it until you posted that. Cool video! Weird how they come up with this crazy shit.
I cannot express in words just how much I do not want my consciousness to persist, trapped, for trillions of years of darkness. That would be unimaginable hell.
with only a finite initial store of energy, only a finite number of thoughts can ever be processed. This "thermal death" of the universe prevents the infinite hibernation and computation trick from working, thus rendering Dyson's eternal intelligence scenario impossible in a universe with a positive cosmological constant.
My disappointment is immeasurable, and my day is ruined.
This is the main reason why, if you come across a genie in a lamp, you should probably not wish for immortality. You're gonna be hellafuckin bored for a loooooooong time.
From what I have read on the internet so far, it's probably best to not wish for anything at all. Just throw it in the deepest ocean to do us all a favour.
Spending Eternity either crushed to a point in the heart of black hole or drifting thru the darkness of space all alone with nothing to do or even anything to look at.
I feel like reading this story is an internet nerd Rite of Passage. It had a huge impact on me when I read it as a teenager and I think about it a lot.
That's neat, stars are just the sparks after the big bang, and "soon" that energy will be gone. Even with all the bad shit happening, it makes me happy to be alive in this beautifully short window of time in the universe, even if our little dust speck circling a spark is a bit fucked up sometimes
Want to live forever? Tough. Cos even if you could stop your body from growing old and dying, the planet is going to get too warm and nothing will be able to live on it. Then the sun will expand and destroy the planet. But even if you could leave the planet, theres no where close by to get too that wont have the same problems later on. But even if you could get to another solar system, same thing happens again. But then eventually the universe runs out of hydrogen and its fucked. Or the universe gets spread too thin, and its fucked. Or some fucking quantum field takes a shit, and creates a bubble of true vacuum that expands at the speed of light and everything's fucked.
Im fucked, youre fucked, the earth is fucked, the solar system is fucked, the galaxy is fucked, the local cluster is fucked, its all just fucked. One way or another. At some point nothing exists except an endless absence of anything. Not even nothing will exist...
And people say there are no good arguments for weekly drug fuelled sex orgies...
This always blows my mind to think that we are here and we are experiencing this life and in the grand scheme of things its so fleeting, but that it all came from somewhere and its all going to die eventually. Could it really be true that there will just be nothing for eternity after this? Or are we not just a random chance in a previous eternity. Can we ever really know or is it all just our best guess?
Its humbling but also makes me feel even more like life is important and should be taken seriously.
You know, I often find myself coming at from the other direction. Trying not to take life too seriously, because after all in the end, nothing really matters. It matter now, of course. You and I sharing a conversation, matters. Well, as much as a conversion on a social media platform can without one or both of us showing our arseholes. But in the end, the very end, when theres no one left for us to have influenced. We... do that blade runner thing in the rain.
When I was a boy I used to stay at my grandmothers a lot. And it was there that I had my first taste of existential dread. She had this painting of a ship, an old schooner or something(I dont actually know the names of types of ships, so we'll just go with that). It was this ship and it was in the middle of the ocean at night and riding the waves of a storm. And for whatever reason I saw, not only myself in this image, but also the world as a whole. I couldnt really understand what my brain was telling me, but it freaked me out. Seeing this ship in this framed moment of being alone in an endless nothing, and battered by elements with no hope or land in sight. And if the ship sank, no one would ever know it was ever there. It would be lost to time. Our world is that ship. Its alone in the dark, and surrounded on all sides by terrors both known and unknown. And at any moment, it could be dragged down to the depths and never seen again and all that we ever were or ever could be would be lost.
When got a bit older, and I found myself plagued by thoughts of embarrassment, as teenagers at want to do, I would remember that ship. And whatever it was that I wanted to do, I would do because as much as being in the storm terrified me, not steering into it and fighting for every moment would terrify me more. One day I will be at the bottom of that abyss, but right before that, Ill be on a bed. Ill be surrounded by family or I wont, and it will just be a loan nurse whose is tired of constantly fixing my pillows and hearing stories of when I was young, and you didnt need sun block factor 5000. And it will be that quiet moment that regret will get deafeningly loud. And while regret is just unavoidable, the absolute last thing I want to hear myself say is "I wish I had said something.". Ill have a million "I wish I hadnt done that.", and they will all be valid. But at least Ill know that it was the wrong thing, instead of always wondering what could have been. I think that if I took life more seriously, I might not have done anywhere near the amount of things that I did. And while they werent all winners, they were all brilliant moments of life. And as cringe as it can some times be to look back, it was always fun. Although, I probably could have done without seeing a middle aged man jumping out of a wardrobe in crotchless batman outfit... Id say never go home with strange older women in Brighton, but that would really undercut everything else I just said lol.
Life really is terrifying. Which is why you really just have to shit yourself and jump in to get most out of it.
That was a great read and an interesting take. (You should write, if you don't already, it was very engaging)
To be fair i guess i don't take life too seriously because i know that ultimately none of it matters, but equally this short time i get to spend here is my opportunity to experience as much as possible and i don't want to miss any of it so i have to take my life seriously and the lives of those my actions impact. Feeling anger and happiness, fear and love, pain and pleasure are all things to be taken seriously because they are all part of the ride.
If i relax too much i will miss out. It may not matter ultimately but right now in this moment it does. So i should make the most of it. But remember to be able to let go of my grudges, and enjoy the ride. And try to pass that on to others. Remind those that are so wound and tangled up that they can just let go and things will get better.
For me the meaning of life is just to live it and feel as much as possible.
We can't truly know, our math still aims to several couple of extra physical dimensions and we have no other proof of that, our quantum physics show a glimpse of infinite universes and have no way of visiting them, probably ever.
We will die and the universe will continue its course like we never where here to begin with, since a repeat for any other lifeforms past, present and future.
Comparison is truly the thief of joy. Of course, once we know how long the slow fade of an empty universe will last, the first thing we most do is make 120 trillion years of insane, glorious, beautiful existence seem inadequate.
After that, depends on who you ask. Most physicists would say something like “as close to nothing as possible”. Penrose would say at a certain point when nothing can interact with anything else, distance loses meaning, which makes the universe and a singularity equivalent, so then things restart.
I don't think you can argue that it's mathematically equivalent. Just because space and time become so spread that they are effectively meaningless is not the same as them having not meaningfully existed and then existing. Neither can you really say that since any baryons that have not decayed are so far apart none of them interact that they behave like the concentration of all matter in the known universe. At those scales of time I'm not even sure that there are any left.
It's like arguing that one tiny piece of something in one place is the same as all the matter and all of space and time being in one place: it's I guess analogous but not equivalent. I will of course caveat and say that my undergrad physics degree did not cover end of the universe timelines lol. Kurzgesagt does have a video though.
The cyclical universe approach as I understand it is predicated on an eventual big crunch which I don't think is being argued anymore.
Oh don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying he’s right. I just thought the objection was to the “restart bit”, and I thought that part reasonably followed if the earlier parts were accepted.
But Penrose’s Conformal Cyclic Cosmology is pretty much the opposite of a Big Crunch.
Because things haven't progressed linearly with the universes evolution, and, as the op stipulates, we are part of one second vs countless billions of years (relatively) till it's theoretical demise, it is possible/probable that we don't know what will happen down the line.
Certain things might change to make it possible that we simply can't predict due to lack of information (the future) and technological difficulties.
Yeah I also think it would take a lot more than just one single bit of discrete information in an universe of completely uniform and homogeneous nothingness, to restart the universe lol /s
A recent discovery might suggest that we happen to be in a big void, and that a great amount of the universe is much much denser than where we are or what we have observed. If true, Big Crunch time bby
What's that phenomenon that describes noticing things more after you become aware of them because I'm seeing a lot more Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy references than I remember now that I've started reading it
And Hawking radiation. Hawking radiation is pretty "dark" for solar-mass scale black holes and up, but it can become relatively very intense for smaller holes.
For the holes we observe astronomically, the things we can see are the accretion disks and the orbits of stars around the black hole.
Yeah, though eventually they should all evaporate one after another with a last huge tiny energy burst due to hawking radiation. But that will take a looooooooong ass time. And we still don't know (might never know) if hawking radiation is real.
I think the passing of time, as in waiting, is an experience of the mind. Without a waiting mind, the length of time is just another number out there, like the distance between the edges of the universe. If after the dark finale of this universe there exists another event that spawns a conscious mind, there is no actual waiting happening between this universe bright, starry second and the next one.
Time can stretch and squish and follow physical rules, if the passage of time is an experience of the mind time itself would remain existent without minds just as real as distance and the passage of distance via movement between objects would remain without minds.
One interesting thing I heard is the DESI data from a telescope observatory in Arizona that was trying to build a more accurate map of the universe identified the dark energy acceleration as slowing. That could mean if the trend continues eventually gravity will overpower dark energy and everything collapses back together again. I don't think it's conclusive, but it is evidence maybe heat death isn't an ending phase.
"If you don't remember the 13.75 billion years that went by before you existed, then the trillions and trillions and trillions of years that come after will pass in no time once you're gone. Close your eyes. Count to 1. That's how long forever feels."
I've heard a funny story somewhere that god created the humans sothat they are worshipped. Because if nobody believes in them, they might as well not exist.
It's a cool axiom though. I mean if there's nothing conscious to know the universe exists, like, so what? A universe needs life to matter to that life. Intrinsic mattering makes no sense. Things have to matter to other things that have the capacity to want or need. But without consciousness, those things might as well be like calculations in a computer.
Not having consciousness might be the best thing that could happen to a universe. Just everything existing, without desire or suffering.
With a universe that peaceful, there might as well not be us.
actually that's precisely what buddhism is all about. there is no "i" in it all, the universe is a river of colors, flowing, transforming, but it is because we cling to the world that we create the illusion of an "i" ourselves.
There's a cool video about this by exurb1a, i think it's this one (but could also be another video, this dude made a lot of great videos.)
Us. Conscious creatures humans or otherwise. We are the genesis of "point".
By analogy, what's the point of a sun, or a planet, being a thing? It just is, right? A mechanism of nature.
Maybe we are do, but it's undeniable that we experience reality. Experience is the only thing they can have a point, by definition. This is simply axiomatic.
There is no knowing a universe without knowers, so whether something just is, absent is, is a nonsense question. Sense to whom, after all?
What makes 'us' so special that the worth of a whole universe is determined by our existence, inspite of the brevity of human history? Written history has only been around for 5,000. The oldest homo sapiens has only been around for 300,000 years. Was the universe insignificant for the rest of its 13,799,700,000 years?
It doesn't. But "needing" itself is an undefined term without consciousness - definition itself is a product of conscious experience.
The point is that there is no fact of a universe existing without something that can know facts. It's necessarily tautological, after all we cannot know not existing.
Were we not, the universe could not be as we know it. Whether or not it exists at all without us cannot matter, because mattering itself cannot be defined without a definer, nor can existence itself be verified without a verifier.
That which "just is" could be absolutely anything at any time.
In other words, Maybe the big bang happened some 13.8 billion years ago and over all this time events transpired until the first consciousnesses came online. Suddenly the universe knows being. Then one day you come online, somewhere around the age of 5 or 6.
Or... That is just what it looks like to you and in reality someone preprogrammed the simulation and switched it on and you came into existence at the moment of your oldest memory. All that history is true only in the sense that it's what the simulation shows you. But 13.8 billion years never really happened.
That's basically how it is, and it doesn't need to be an external simulation. Those 13.8 billion years had nothing in them to experience, to remember, or to document concepts like duration, and years are a relational measurement we invented.
Its the whole "why is there anything at all" thing for me. Like why is there any energy to have made all of this. Couldn't there just have never been anything at all? Nothing for anyone to experience. Its so hard to perceive and think about but its absolutely fascinating.
If the universe wouldn't exist, you couldn't ask yourself that question. So, by wondering "why is there anything at all" you have already answered the question: because otherwise you couldn't even ask the question.
By asking the question (of whether the universe exists), that is already reason enough to know the answer. As such, you could say that asking the question is causal to knowing the answer. And the answer is that the universe exists.
So, asking questions causes the universe to exist, in some sense.
What you are saying certainly answers that the universe does exist (or at least we perceive it to) but how does that answer the why? If i can ask the question then the universe does exist. Great. But why?
why has two different meanings. You can ask "why did something happen" and expect a causal explanation, i.e. event B happened because event A happened earlier, or you can ask it like "why is this happening", like "what is the purpose in it". does that make sense to you?
Yes, but neither is what you are answering. Or i just don't get how that answers it.
You are telling me this answers the question "does the universe exist" but i am asking why there is anything there in the first place so that the universe can exist. Why is there a medium for the fabric of space and time to exist within. There could have just been nothing.
I understand that there is. And we are here. But thats not my question and i don't think your answering that question.
One minor problem is that life as we know it is supported by the continuous input of energy from a nearby star. Without it, no photosynthesis, and nearly all primary energy production in Earth life comes from that.
The slightly bigger problem is that by the time there are only black holes, there are no planets. Because, you know, there's only black holes. So nothing outside of black holes for life to be on, and the vacuum of space isn't really the most conducive to life or interaction of any kind.
Yet all this energy and electromagnetic phenomena
from our very limited vantage point and experiments
feels like it bathes everything as it decays gradually
in slow motion, one rung at a time, towards entropy,
zooming down an exponential thermodynamic curve
that aims and trends towards zero, beyond our view,
beyond the horizon, touching infinity itself.
And here's the craziest part: the space itself where
this is all taking place, is accelerating its' expansion.
The more you zoom out, the more you realize how insignificant we are. I've heard a lot of people realized this when they saw "The Pale Blue Dot" photograph of earth, but I had to have the perspective of time to realize it. We are nothing, not even a spit in the sea.
I dunno, I feel like neither empty space nor vast aeons of darkness are particularly pulling their weight in terms of really doing existing with any real level of conviction. It's easy to be vast if you're doing fuck all with most of it.
This is actually a very good argument for simulation theory, since if some species ever manages to synthesize consciousness beyond natural biology, then the vast majority of all consciousness will exist in black hole entropy farms in the post-star universe, making it almost a statistical certainly that we are one such farm.
You're shifting the burden of proof on to me when the original commenter is the one who made the claim that simulation theory is supported by our current understanding that the universe will contain black holes much longer than it contains stars.
That claim isn't based on any scientific rigor or has any elements that make predictions about reality that can be tested. It's the scientific argument of "wouldn't it be sick if.."
We think. We still haven't solved things like the dark matter/energy problem. The answer to that alone could drastically change what we estimate will happen in the distant future.
Stuff only burns for so long. We might learn more about the geometry of space and that there is more out there at greater distances where maybe even other Big bangs are possible but there is a certain maximum amount of time that a star can exist.
Over the time scales of the life of a proton the maximum variability in the amount of time a star can burn is a rounding error against the scale of numbers needed to express the amount of time it takes for hawking radiation to reduce black holes to ultra long wavelengths of infrared radiation.
Yes, but we don't have proof that universe can't generate new matter. For all we know there is a mechanism in universe not yet observed that can create new matter out of little vacuum and more stars will keep forming.
So technically all we can say is, it's likely that stars will die out in 1000 trillion years.
True... we also don't have proof there isn't a tea pot orbiting our Sun since it's creation, either.
However, there's also a complete lack of evidence of it.
You cannot prove a negative. The evidence says no new matter can be created. No evidence that new matter gets created. Therefore, we work on the model of no new matter creation.
On these scales, the accuracy of our observations should reduce our confidence though. It doesn't make sense to confidently say that, in 200 trillion years there will be no stars, because our observations of the rate of new matter creation (approximately zero) have a margin of error which allows for there to still be some
Until evidence shows otherwise, new matter being created doesnt fit our observations.
Go prove that wrong! Win yourself a Nobel prize in physics! That's what science is about!
I do also want to point out that stuff like "The conservation of energy" law, in other words, that energy cannot be created or destroyed, does not hold for our universe with our current models. An expanding universe violates the time-translation symmetry
This is our current models. This is what our current physics says. And we know it's incomplete.
When it comes to scientific predictions, you always, always, need the caveat, "under our current model of".
Space itself expanding doesnt, however...
New matter being created with extremely low probability fits perfectly with our observations.
A teapot created with out solar system orbiting the sun fits our models, with an extremely low probability.
However, we dont work on that assumption being true.
So if all the existing matter came from the big Bang, is it possible to condense it all back into one place?
pretty sure that is the big crunch hypothesis
Sure! Big crunch is a possibility! Crunch or heat death, all matters on how much matter is in the universe.
But in this case, this “theory” has a precedent. This energy and matter we have now must have come from somewhere. Whatever your personal belief on the matter is, what’s to say that event can’t happen again? If a god created the universe, then surely he can pump some more into it.
Matter and energy can be converted. So, its possible it was never created, it just always was.
That’s something I’ll never be able to understand. Something having no beginning. Just like I’ll never be able to understand a moment before the big bang, or at the moment of the singularity, where time did could not exist. If there’s no time, how can anything, like the big bang, happen? Unfortunately the singularity is something we know nothing about whatsoever, and probably will never know.
like how we thought black holes were ever-growing inescapable masses and then we learned about hawking radiation.
I mean, have you considered that the expansion of the universe generates or increases the total energy in the universe?
As stars move apart, they gain both potential energy with respect to other stars, because greater distance from gravity sources means greater potential energy, but they also gain kinetic energy as they accelerate away from other objects. So, their mechanical energy (potential + kinetic energy) increases over time. Maybe somebody could build a clever machine out of this to harvest that energy?
IIRC, the current theory is that stars do not move apart, but that space itself expands, which generates the impression that they move apart.
We also haven't tried every possible configuration of atoms to see if anything creates a portal to an infinite energy dimension or a perpetual motion machine or something we can use to make our own stars
Infinite energy is cheating. Same with travelling backwards in time.
My intuition tells me the universe doesn't allow cheaters.
But then I'm just an evolved bag of water cells clinging onto a clump of rock so what the fuck do I know?
Time travel is allowed for under our current models. Or rather, time travel doesn't affect most parts of the current models, so it's not cheating.
We can only time travel to the future or i am wrong?
Currently yes, but there's nothing inherent in there that's says there's no way for us to move backwards
I once reas a theory abou you needing to go faster than the speed of light which is not possible theorically
PS: i am not a scientist i don't know much, only some basic shit i learned for curiosity
Yeah for all we know stars are black hole poop
Nah, that's the heavier elements.
wait, i thought the heavier elements were star poop, and black holes poop either electrons or positrons i can't remember.
Only up to iron is star poop. Anything heavier tends to be created by novae of various sizes. Technically nothing comes from the black hole, but many of the very heavy elements are birthed along side black holes.
Also see Dyson's Eternal Intelligence:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyson%27s_eternal_intelligence
Basically, if you assume it's possible to upload our intelligence to a computer and run it, then you can keep the energy going to run it for a very, very long time. Well past the heat death of the rest of the universe. It depends on running things in an on and off state to conserve energy for trillions of years. Subjectively, the people in there wouldn't notice that and would simply see their active lifespans go for trillions of years. It's not clear what the limit would actually be.
It's something like Zeno's Paradox. You cut things in half each cycle, but never quite get to zero.
I see someone else is a Kurzgesagt fan https://youtu.be/VMm-U2pHrXE
I like to watch them when I need a good existential crisis
May I introduce you to exurb1a
I know him and have even read all his books
I saw that pop up as a recommendation the other day but forgot to watch it until you posted that. Cool video! Weird how they come up with this crazy shit.
I cannot express in words just how much I do not want my consciousness to persist, trapped, for trillions of years of darkness. That would be unimaginable hell.
What if there's cookies?
I'd delete them at the end of session, like any lemming would.
For there to be cookies one must assume an eternal cookie banner / pop up telling you this site uses cookies.
There'd only be dark chocolate chip. That's just science
My disappointment is immeasurable, and my day is ruined.
Eternity would get boring, a few trillion years would give you plenty of time to not miss out on anything life has to offer
How would you know ? Maybe life really only gets interesting after trillions of years, and nobody has experienced truly great life yet, who's to say..
that explains Pantheon really well
This is the main reason why, if you come across a genie in a lamp, you should probably not wish for immortality. You're gonna be hellafuckin bored for a loooooooong time.
I don't want to imagine the level of procrastination I would have if I were immortal.
I would wish for a life that ends when I want it to. Like the numenoreans had in LoTR
Just one trillion years will do
From what I have read on the internet so far, it's probably best to not wish for anything at all. Just throw it in the deepest ocean to do us all a favour.
I suppose you could wish for all genies to be instantly annihilated. Maybe toss the GOP in there for good measure.
"Your wish shall be granted."
genie destroys the universe
"Eh, worth it."
What about extreme longevity though
Like Kevin Spacey? Ew.
Why? Are you bored now? If so, why is it a problem? If not, then what's the problem?
Spending Eternity either crushed to a point in the heart of black hole or drifting thru the darkness of space all alone with nothing to do or even anything to look at.
There's a bit to go yet before we get there. Can I have a few hundred years more first?
Yes, but we were discussing eternity
Thus began the Age of Fire. But soon the flames will fade and only Dark will remain.
every soul has its dark
Just like every Knight praise the sun.
Unless that Knight is onion flavored, they just die :(
Unless, of course, that onion knight has a lot of experience in other professions, in which case they can easily punch gods to death.
If only I could be so grossly incandescent!
Tangentially related great sci-fi short story: “The Last Question” by Isaac Asimov: https://users.ece.cmu.edu/~gamvrosi/thelastq.html
Probably my favorite short story. This is another one of my favorites, definitely more obscure:
A Conversation with God - Ragged Trousered Philosopher
Thanks for that. I've read it before, long ago, but completely forgot about it. Still a great story.
I feel like reading this story is an internet nerd Rite of Passage. It had a huge impact on me when I read it as a teenager and I think about it a lot.
Does thinking about the long dark make anyone else feel like they are going to vomit?
The chances of me living long enough to actually be effected by it are so slim that I'm completely unconcerned about it.
And if you could live so long it would invalidate basically everything we know of physics. So the long dark wouldn't actually come.
Depends on what you mean by living.
I do like how you haven't ruled it out yet.
I don't know, I thought it was pretty fun.
Nope, I think humanity will be long gone by then, so it doesn't really matter what happens after that.
More like head spinning, like when you look at the stars are you loose your reference frame
Why’s that? If humanity presumably nearly couldn’t be around then?
It makes me feel like all the suffering people inflict for the sake of selfishness jand greed just pointless.
We're doing a pretty bang up job of making that one second as stupid and painful as possible.
One second of light illuminating a torture chamber
There are four lights.
That's neat, stars are just the sparks after the big bang, and "soon" that energy will be gone. Even with all the bad shit happening, it makes me happy to be alive in this beautifully short window of time in the universe, even if our little dust speck circling a spark is a bit fucked up sometimes
Want to live forever? Tough. Cos even if you could stop your body from growing old and dying, the planet is going to get too warm and nothing will be able to live on it. Then the sun will expand and destroy the planet. But even if you could leave the planet, theres no where close by to get too that wont have the same problems later on. But even if you could get to another solar system, same thing happens again. But then eventually the universe runs out of hydrogen and its fucked. Or the universe gets spread too thin, and its fucked. Or some fucking quantum field takes a shit, and creates a bubble of true vacuum that expands at the speed of light and everything's fucked.
Im fucked, youre fucked, the earth is fucked, the solar system is fucked, the galaxy is fucked, the local cluster is fucked, its all just fucked. One way or another. At some point nothing exists except an endless absence of anything. Not even nothing will exist...
And people say there are no good arguments for weekly drug fuelled sex orgies...
I had to google that lol.
She's right, actually
This always blows my mind to think that we are here and we are experiencing this life and in the grand scheme of things its so fleeting, but that it all came from somewhere and its all going to die eventually. Could it really be true that there will just be nothing for eternity after this? Or are we not just a random chance in a previous eternity. Can we ever really know or is it all just our best guess?
Its humbling but also makes me feel even more like life is important and should be taken seriously.
You know, I often find myself coming at from the other direction. Trying not to take life too seriously, because after all in the end, nothing really matters. It matter now, of course. You and I sharing a conversation, matters. Well, as much as a conversion on a social media platform can without one or both of us showing our arseholes. But in the end, the very end, when theres no one left for us to have influenced. We... do that blade runner thing in the rain.
When I was a boy I used to stay at my grandmothers a lot. And it was there that I had my first taste of existential dread. She had this painting of a ship, an old schooner or something(I dont actually know the names of types of ships, so we'll just go with that). It was this ship and it was in the middle of the ocean at night and riding the waves of a storm. And for whatever reason I saw, not only myself in this image, but also the world as a whole. I couldnt really understand what my brain was telling me, but it freaked me out. Seeing this ship in this framed moment of being alone in an endless nothing, and battered by elements with no hope or land in sight. And if the ship sank, no one would ever know it was ever there. It would be lost to time. Our world is that ship. Its alone in the dark, and surrounded on all sides by terrors both known and unknown. And at any moment, it could be dragged down to the depths and never seen again and all that we ever were or ever could be would be lost.
When got a bit older, and I found myself plagued by thoughts of embarrassment, as teenagers at want to do, I would remember that ship. And whatever it was that I wanted to do, I would do because as much as being in the storm terrified me, not steering into it and fighting for every moment would terrify me more. One day I will be at the bottom of that abyss, but right before that, Ill be on a bed. Ill be surrounded by family or I wont, and it will just be a loan nurse whose is tired of constantly fixing my pillows and hearing stories of when I was young, and you didnt need sun block factor 5000. And it will be that quiet moment that regret will get deafeningly loud. And while regret is just unavoidable, the absolute last thing I want to hear myself say is "I wish I had said something.". Ill have a million "I wish I hadnt done that.", and they will all be valid. But at least Ill know that it was the wrong thing, instead of always wondering what could have been. I think that if I took life more seriously, I might not have done anywhere near the amount of things that I did. And while they werent all winners, they were all brilliant moments of life. And as cringe as it can some times be to look back, it was always fun. Although, I probably could have done without seeing a middle aged man jumping out of a wardrobe in crotchless batman outfit... Id say never go home with strange older women in Brighton, but that would really undercut everything else I just said lol.
Life really is terrifying. Which is why you really just have to shit yourself and jump in to get most out of it.
That was a great read and an interesting take. (You should write, if you don't already, it was very engaging)
To be fair i guess i don't take life too seriously because i know that ultimately none of it matters, but equally this short time i get to spend here is my opportunity to experience as much as possible and i don't want to miss any of it so i have to take my life seriously and the lives of those my actions impact. Feeling anger and happiness, fear and love, pain and pleasure are all things to be taken seriously because they are all part of the ride.
If i relax too much i will miss out. It may not matter ultimately but right now in this moment it does. So i should make the most of it. But remember to be able to let go of my grudges, and enjoy the ride. And try to pass that on to others. Remind those that are so wound and tangled up that they can just let go and things will get better.
For me the meaning of life is just to live it and feel as much as possible.
We can't truly know, our math still aims to several couple of extra physical dimensions and we have no other proof of that, our quantum physics show a glimpse of infinite universes and have no way of visiting them, probably ever.
We will die and the universe will continue its course like we never where here to begin with, since a repeat for any other lifeforms past, present and future.
Wait I've heard of the vacuum one but never understood it. Do you have a link (or the name of the doomsday theory) so I can read?
https://bigthink.com/starts-with-a-bang/universe-false-vacuum
Long read, but it should have the answers for all your questions. Have fun! lol.
that was interesting. thanks for the link!
i have to wonder, were this possible, why it has not already happened given the sheer size of the universe.
coulda said trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion and saved us a little time
we still have 120 trillion years left. we can spare the time for a few extra words
No no, it will be over just like a second! Blink for 120 trillion years and you'll miss it.
Comparison is truly the thief of joy. Of course, once we know how long the slow fade of an empty universe will last, the first thing we most do is make 120 trillion years of insane, glorious, beautiful existence seem inadequate.
No! We must be absolutely positively as terse and brief as possible. Concision is the watchword, my friends.
Fucking this.
Why use lot words...?
Yoink
What happens after the 10^106 years of black holes?
The black holes evaporate eventually.
After that, depends on who you ask. Most physicists would say something like “as close to nothing as possible”. Penrose would say at a certain point when nothing can interact with anything else, distance loses meaning, which makes the universe and a singularity equivalent, so then things restart.
Not sure about the "restart" bit.
If it’s mathematically equivalent to the starting conditions of our universe, why would it behave differently?
I don't think you can argue that it's mathematically equivalent. Just because space and time become so spread that they are effectively meaningless is not the same as them having not meaningfully existed and then existing. Neither can you really say that since any baryons that have not decayed are so far apart none of them interact that they behave like the concentration of all matter in the known universe. At those scales of time I'm not even sure that there are any left.
It's like arguing that one tiny piece of something in one place is the same as all the matter and all of space and time being in one place: it's I guess analogous but not equivalent. I will of course caveat and say that my undergrad physics degree did not cover end of the universe timelines lol. Kurzgesagt does have a video though.
The cyclical universe approach as I understand it is predicated on an eventual big crunch which I don't think is being argued anymore.
Oh don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying he’s right. I just thought the objection was to the “restart bit”, and I thought that part reasonably followed if the earlier parts were accepted.
But Penrose’s Conformal Cyclic Cosmology is pretty much the opposite of a Big Crunch.
I guess I'll have to read up. I have potentially had a long running misunderstanding.
Unless it's been disproven it's not "not being argued anymore"
Because things haven't progressed linearly with the universes evolution, and, as the op stipulates, we are part of one second vs countless billions of years (relatively) till it's theoretical demise, it is possible/probable that we don't know what will happen down the line.
Certain things might change to make it possible that we simply can't predict due to lack of information (the future) and technological difficulties.
Yeah I also think it would take a lot more than just one single bit of discrete information in an universe of completely uniform and homogeneous nothingness, to restart the universe lol /s
Yes.
Alternately, no.
Nothing really. And since nothing is happening and nothing ever changes time itself becomes meaningless.
🤷🏻
From what I understand, the universe would just be in equilibrium. Nothing but cold particles floating around.
A recent discovery might suggest that we happen to be in a big void, and that a great amount of the universe is much much denser than where we are or what we have observed. If true, Big Crunch time bby
Honestly, this factoid is the closest thing to a real Total Perspective Vortex that I’ve ever felt.
What's that phenomenon that describes noticing things more after you become aware of them because I'm seeing a lot more Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy references than I remember now that I've started reading it
Anthropic Principle moment
Black holes aren't "dark"...
These ones will be quite dim
Yeah, I suppose after a billion billion billion or so years, it probably would be
The light will eventually tire out and turn into radio waves or smth, I'm not a physicist
To al elder God that sees higher bands of the electromagnetic spectrum it would see be a very bright place!
Any self respecting elder god would be playing billiards with the black holes. Fire up the new big bang, ye tatterdemalion layabouts!
Is that because of the accretion disk?
And Hawking radiation. Hawking radiation is pretty "dark" for solar-mass scale black holes and up, but it can become relatively very intense for smaller holes.
For the holes we observe astronomically, the things we can see are the accretion disks and the orbits of stars around the black hole.
But that happens because of matter falling into them, right? When they've already swallowed everything, there's not going to be accretion disks.
Yeah, though eventually they should all evaporate one after another with a last huge tiny energy burst due to hawking radiation. But that will take a looooooooong ass time. And we still don't know (might never know) if hawking radiation is real.
They said the same thing about the curvature of spacetime 100 years ago. Then it was proven like three years later.
Black holes ain't black because they didn't vote for Biden
/s
I think the passing of time, as in waiting, is an experience of the mind. Without a waiting mind, the length of time is just another number out there, like the distance between the edges of the universe. If after the dark finale of this universe there exists another event that spawns a conscious mind, there is no actual waiting happening between this universe bright, starry second and the next one.
Time can stretch and squish and follow physical rules, if the passage of time is an experience of the mind time itself would remain existent without minds just as real as distance and the passage of distance via movement between objects would remain without minds.
One interesting thing I heard is the DESI data from a telescope observatory in Arizona that was trying to build a more accurate map of the universe identified the dark energy acceleration as slowing. That could mean if the trend continues eventually gravity will overpower dark energy and everything collapses back together again. I don't think it's conclusive, but it is evidence maybe heat death isn't an ending phase.
Reminds me of that Kurzgesagt video about Optimistic Nihilism:
Well then I'm just going to enjoy the absolute fuck out of Hawking radiation and Mr pouty pants can sulk for 10^elebenty eons.
I just had a moment of what is everything
I don't know how to explain it but from nothing to something to nothing again but no why
The 'why' is us.
Without consciousness in the universe, there might as well not be a universe.
Typically something a consciousness would say.
The cosmos can't ponder itself so excuse us for being self centered lol
We are the cosmos pondering itself.
Carl Sagan said it more or this way and he was right.
I've heard a funny story somewhere that god created the humans sothat they are worshipped. Because if nobody believes in them, they might as well not exist.
It's a cool axiom though. I mean if there's nothing conscious to know the universe exists, like, so what? A universe needs life to matter to that life. Intrinsic mattering makes no sense. Things have to matter to other things that have the capacity to want or need. But without consciousness, those things might as well be like calculations in a computer.
Nope, only matters if we hear it.
Indeed. But it's an axiom, not a tautology.
Not having consciousness might be the best thing that could happen to a universe. Just everything existing, without desire or suffering.
With a universe that peaceful, there might as well not be us.
actually that's precisely what buddhism is all about. there is no "i" in it all, the universe is a river of colors, flowing, transforming, but it is because we cling to the world that we create the illusion of an "i" ourselves.
There's a cool video about this by exurb1a, i think it's this one (but could also be another video, this dude made a lot of great videos.)
What would be the point of a universe if there was nothing experiencing it?
Who or what is it "best" for?
What is the "point" of this universe?
Us. Conscious creatures humans or otherwise. We are the genesis of "point".
By analogy, what's the point of a sun, or a planet, being a thing? It just is, right? A mechanism of nature.
Maybe we are do, but it's undeniable that we experience reality. Experience is the only thing they can have a point, by definition. This is simply axiomatic.
There is no knowing a universe without knowers, so whether something just is, absent is, is a nonsense question. Sense to whom, after all?
I’m sticking that as text over an image of Neil DeGrasse Tyson.
Haha, that we, but same difference.
Why does the universe need to be known?
What makes 'us' so special that the worth of a whole universe is determined by our existence, inspite of the brevity of human history? Written history has only been around for 5,000. The oldest homo sapiens has only been around for 300,000 years. Was the universe insignificant for the rest of its 13,799,700,000 years?
It doesn't. But "needing" itself is an undefined term without consciousness - definition itself is a product of conscious experience.
The point is that there is no fact of a universe existing without something that can know facts. It's necessarily tautological, after all we cannot know not existing.
Were we not, the universe could not be as we know it. Whether or not it exists at all without us cannot matter, because mattering itself cannot be defined without a definer, nor can existence itself be verified without a verifier.
That which "just is" could be absolutely anything at any time.
In other words, Maybe the big bang happened some 13.8 billion years ago and over all this time events transpired until the first consciousnesses came online. Suddenly the universe knows being. Then one day you come online, somewhere around the age of 5 or 6.
Or... That is just what it looks like to you and in reality someone preprogrammed the simulation and switched it on and you came into existence at the moment of your oldest memory. All that history is true only in the sense that it's what the simulation shows you. But 13.8 billion years never really happened.
That's basically how it is, and it doesn't need to be an external simulation. Those 13.8 billion years had nothing in them to experience, to remember, or to document concepts like duration, and years are a relational measurement we invented.
Its the whole "why is there anything at all" thing for me. Like why is there any energy to have made all of this. Couldn't there just have never been anything at all? Nothing for anyone to experience. Its so hard to perceive and think about but its absolutely fascinating.
If the universe wouldn't exist, you couldn't ask yourself that question. So, by wondering "why is there anything at all" you have already answered the question: because otherwise you couldn't even ask the question.
Im not sure i follow. Or at least im not sure how me being able to ask why is answered by me being able to ask that.
I see that i can ask it because the universe exists but i dont think that covers why.
it's a play with conditional probability:
By asking the question (of whether the universe exists), that is already reason enough to know the answer. As such, you could say that asking the question is causal to knowing the answer. And the answer is that the universe exists.
So, asking questions causes the universe to exist, in some sense.
Maybe I'm just not smart enough to understand.
What you are saying certainly answers that the universe does exist (or at least we perceive it to) but how does that answer the why? If i can ask the question then the universe does exist. Great. But why?
why has two different meanings. You can ask "why did something happen" and expect a causal explanation, i.e. event B happened because event A happened earlier, or you can ask it like "why is this happening", like "what is the purpose in it". does that make sense to you?
Yes, but neither is what you are answering. Or i just don't get how that answers it.
You are telling me this answers the question "does the universe exist" but i am asking why there is anything there in the first place so that the universe can exist. Why is there a medium for the fabric of space and time to exist within. There could have just been nothing.
I understand that there is. And we are here. But thats not my question and i don't think your answering that question.
Well if its just backhoes life will evolve to see infrared/sonar
And dig plenty of holes
It's just backhoes all the way down
One minor problem is that life as we know it is supported by the continuous input of energy from a nearby star. Without it, no photosynthesis, and nearly all primary energy production in Earth life comes from that.
The slightly bigger problem is that by the time there are only black holes, there are no planets. Because, you know, there's only black holes. So nothing outside of black holes for life to be on, and the vacuum of space isn't really the most conducive to life or interaction of any kind.
Entropy is the engine that sustains life.
Like living in a slow motion explosion on a spec of dust
Wont there also be balls of iron-56 just chilling?
Proton decay
Oh shit that's true
maybe
Yet all this energy and electromagnetic phenomena
from our very limited vantage point and experiments
feels like it bathes everything as it decays gradually
in slow motion, one rung at a time, towards entropy,
zooming down an exponential thermodynamic curve
that aims and trends towards zero, beyond our view,
beyond the horizon, touching infinity itself.
And here's the craziest part: the space itself where
this is all taking place, is accelerating its' expansion.
Supposedly this will happen just after the release of The Winds of Winter.
We live in but a bright second, yet are determined to fill it with darkness unending.
and what comes after that guys
I used to like wait but why until he made a 3 post puff piece about elon musk's neuralink
Sex, drugs, and rock and roll.
The more you zoom out, the more you realize how insignificant we are. I've heard a lot of people realized this when they saw "The Pale Blue Dot" photograph of earth, but I had to have the perspective of time to realize it. We are nothing, not even a spit in the sea.
Try the Total Perspective Vortex.
Highly effective unless the universe really does revolve around you.
That's an equally valid frame of reference.
I dunno, I feel like neither empty space nor vast aeons of darkness are particularly pulling their weight in terms of really doing existing with any real level of conviction. It's easy to be vast if you're doing fuck all with most of it.
Are we talking standard roll or mega roll? 2-ply?
Speak for yourself, Tom Urban!
Do we know if ä is greater than or less than zero?
Not sure how accurate this is, but pretty cool video https://youtu.be/uD4izuDMUQA
Good to know that. I am sometimes just thinking that we lived in a bright second. And are now staring into darkness.
This is actually a very good argument for simulation theory, since if some species ever manages to synthesize consciousness beyond natural biology, then the vast majority of all consciousness will exist in black hole entropy farms in the post-star universe, making it almost a statistical certainly that we are one such farm.
That's not how that works
K
Prove it.
You're shifting the burden of proof on to me when the original commenter is the one who made the claim that simulation theory is supported by our current understanding that the universe will contain black holes much longer than it contains stars.
That claim isn't based on any scientific rigor or has any elements that make predictions about reality that can be tested. It's the scientific argument of "wouldn't it be sick if.."
You're the one with the teapot here
What if it's an LLM at the heart of every black hole?