Last I checked the US spent more than any comparable country on healthcare/capita, roughly twice the OECD average.
And, they have to deal with medical bankruptcies, using Uber instead of ambulances, insulin rationing, and whatnot
I was doing the math on the new benefits package my company is rolling out and we're getting close to the point it'd be cheaper in nearly every instance to simply not have health insurance. I'm literally only keeping it for that slim chance one of us becomes extremely ill and needs major medical intervention.
We were taught in grade school that Europeans lived longer because of the Mediterranean diet they ate. They could eat good bread and drink red wine and out live us Americans.
Turns out it was universal healthcare. We'll never get it here, and we'll die earlier and poorer because of it.
The mediterranean and athlantic diets also help. But to have them you also need better quality foods, which are also worse in the US with all the derregulation.
yeah it's a part deregulation but also the fact that US produces food in giga-farms in technical processes (like corn syrup and petroleum cheese) while in europe you have a whole lot more smaller regional farms which drives up the quality dramatically i believe. like, i think you probably won't find something as good as french mold cheese in the US, simply because there's not really any producers there. correct me if i'm wrong btw.
oh and also the fact that you need patience to really enjoy the food. if you're always in a hustle (grindset), you won't enjoy food anyways so there's no point for food producers to produce better quality food if nobody appreciates it...
Not to mention they don't live their lives in morbid anxiety over getting sick or injured. So that's years more of life just by not being stressed and being able to think clearly.
Only people who live in the Mediterranean eat the Mediterranean diet. Frankly just because it's better for you doesn't mean it's going to make you live longer necessarily it just won't make you live shorter. And maybe they won't have to make a special spherical coffin when you do die.
I live in the Netherlands. If I visit the hospital I have to pay my yearly deductible of €350 first. This person paid zero dollars because her travel insurance paid for it.
The Netherlands has the same system as Obamacare. Privatized insurance with government subsidies for low income. Only difference is that the government sorta acts like a single payer, they negotiate with big pharma over medicine prices and the government with the insurers make a price list for healthcare providers on what they can charge.
Of course a healthcare provider can decide to charge whatever they want but then insurance won’t cover that business.
The Netherlands is something like the 2nd most costly medical care in the world, far behind the US but still way more expensive than necessary. We had a "center right" party in power for ages, with their religious belief that the only way to do anything is for someone to make profit. 😑
Edit:
I just checked and we're actually below Switzerland, Norway, and Germany. I'm shocked!
The number for Germany seems to also include Lohnfortzahlung and Krankengeld (employer only pays part of a sick employee's salary, rest is paid by health insurance) maybe that's why. Germany is also a world champion of unnecessary surgeries.
My deductible is something like $2,500 per person, $13,000 for the family deductible. Once we reach our deductibles we have the joy of coinsurance kicking in where insurance will pay for 50% and we pay the rest. I took a trip to the ER earlier this year for chest pains. They took a chest xray and had me on an EKG for an hour. I got a separate bill for each little thing they did from like 5 different companies (????) Totaling ~$4,000.
A GP visit is fully covered by insurance, a visit to a specialist, like in an hospital, needs to be paid by the deductible first even for a mere consultation with a specialist. Doesn’t matter if it was expensive or not.
And if you visit a specialist without a referral from your GP or dentist then usually insurance won’t cover anything. Except for visits to the emergency room.
Only recently did the United States start treading into monopsony territory when it comes to healthcare funding. Specifically the cost of a certain small list of medicines.
Of course, those gains have been reversed by the shift in political winds, but there is a potential for this policy to expand in the future.
I naively expected that all of Europe had health care figured out. The bullshit $450 USD bill I got in Sweden for existing in the same room with a doctor for 15 minutes taught me otherwise.
You know how in many poor countries, they'll charge you higher prices because they (rightly) think that you're a westerner and can thus pay much higher prices than the locals? I heavily suspect that was basically that. Swedes aren't paying $450 USD for 15 minutes doctor time.
Yeah, as a German, the quality of care isn't necessarily that great (though I never experience the US healthcare system to compare). Many European countries have been heavily cutting corners in the last 1-2 decades. I've been to several doctors who, after waiting like 3 months for an appointment, have been practically useless. "I tried nothing and I'm all out of ideas" kind of shit, and for several different issues. They're fine with simple/obvious stuff, but once it's slightly difficult to figure out or any kind of mental health issue you're pretty much just going there to be able to tell your employer that you're trying, and maybe get lucky with medication.
I'm sure there's levels of competency, but it seems a large part of the failure of the US healthcare itself is when doctors have to try and convince the insurance corporation that they do have education and experience and the procedure or medication they recommended to help someone is valid. As if the insurance company knows better and is trying to protect the patient... right.
Your experience is more realistic than the one in the post. EU citizens in EU countries "don't pay" for healthcare services because it's already paid through taxes, foreigners are supposed to be billed because they don't pay taxes in the EU. (it doesn't always happen tho, you know, administrative error, oops)
Not necessarily true for all foreigners. Australia has reciprocal healthcare agreements with many EU countries. That means if an Aussie visits those countries, healthcare is covered and the opposite is true as well. Whereas that wouldn't apply for a USian.
I'm pretty sure most developed countries have reciprocal agreements with other developed countries that cover emergencies. If an Australian breaks an arm while in Norway, I don't think they're going to get a bill.
But, of course, the US is different. Countries can't have reciprocal agreements with the US, because the US has a for-profit system. If a Swede has to go to the hospital in the US, they better hope they have travel insurance. So, if an American goes to Sweden, they're also going to get billed. And if you think $450 is an expensive medical bill for someone without insurance in the US, you're dreaming.
if you think $450 is an expensive medical bill for someone without insurance in the US, you're dreaming.
I said it was possible to get a bare bones GP visit without insurance in the US for less than $450. I’m fully aware the system is broken and a car accident or serious injury will almost certainly bankrupt individuals without insurance.
But apples-to-apples comparison, the care in Sweden was worse for more money.
What you did if you went to see a random doctor in Sweden is probably more similar to an ER visit, not because it's an emergency, but because it it's not the easy case of someone just visiting their family doctor. A doctor in the US is probably used to seeing uninsured patients and has a standard way of billing them. But, a doctor in Sweden is probably not used to dealing with patients who aren't covered under the Swedish system (or under an EU country's system that has a reciprocal agreement with Sweden). If you lived there long-term, you'd be integrated into their system. So, I assume you weren't seeing your regular doctor, you were seeing a doctor who had to handle a special case of an American without travel insurance. So, they have to figure out how to do all the required paperwork, and pay all the people who need to get paid when a doctor sees a patient, but without the standard procedures. So, you pay extra to deal with that one-off paperwork.
So, the expense isn't because healthcare in Sweden is expensive in general. It's expensive for you because dealing with uninsured Americans is not something they normally do, and it's a pain in the ass, so it has a high price.
I don’t know about Sweden, but in Canada there is a sign with the prices for non-Canadians next to the check in desk in the Emergency. I’m willing to bet that even though it was expensive, it’s still cheaper than the US.
For what it’s worth, the language barrier was pretty significant from a written signs perspective. I showed up at what I guessed was the right spot, went inside, gave them my passport, and they returned it with a bill for $450 (it was expressed in kr, but this is what it converted to). I eventually went in and spoke to a doctor who took no vitals, did no tests, and gave me no medicine. And that was the visit.
I’ve seen a doctor as an American with no insurance a number of times. For a basic GP visit, it’s probably half that price and that’s with basic vitals included.
Not sure for Sweden but usually it's for citizens or permanent residents. Populations tend to not appreciate their taxes going toward foreign entities. That said, the drug prices etc. are at their actual value, so an example of a trip to a GP and getting prescription pain relief, it would be about $40-60 USD depending on circumstances.
My daughter was in Ireland and had a problem that would have cost her a minimum of four thousand in the US with insurance. Her cost was 75 euros. They apologized for it not being complexly free.
Pointing out that "free" healthcare is actually paid for by somebody is seen as a killer gotcha in the conservative world. They assume that as soon as somebody learns that they are paying money into taxes that benefit other people, they will also flip out and fight tooth and nail to stop it.
Keep pushing and they might hit you with another zinger, like how the US is not a democracy, it's a republic! 🤯
Despite less than half of the USA’s total healthcare expenditure coming from government expenditure or compulsory insurance schemes, it still spends more per person on these financing schemes than the UK- £3,111 in the USA in 2014, compared with £2,210 in the UK.
Yep, like many things with this country, when you keep digging instead of finding the inevitable reasonable explanation you find that it just gets stupider.
Fun fact, not just the UK but in fact every single nation on planet earth.
That is correct, as a portion of GDP Americans pay a higher portion of tax into healthcare than any nation on planet earth by a significant margin, before anyone ever pays a cent privately.
America is also the only industrialised nation on earth, the only member of the G20 who does not provide some form of cradle to grave medical coverage for all citizens
mostly they focus on diminishing the value of public healthcare, and compare it with the best theoretical private service you could get.
look at those dirty europoors with dirt cheap healthcare and endless waiting times (both lies), and compare it with what a CEO can afford in there states. you see? US private system is better.
unless you're poor or middle class who can't afford to live, in which case, fuck you.
Insurance is just a scam to keep people enslaved to jobs for their premiums and coverage. If only quality care wasn't tied to employers' insurance we might actually have competition back in the market. Have better products and a livable state of life. As someone on Medicare I can't afford a 400% increase to my premium after tax credits are slashed in the coming years. Socialism is at least a band aid to our monolithic oppressive capitalist economy.
This is misleading. Also in Europe people need to pay for healthcare - it’s just that the costs are lower and more equally distributed. It does happen that a foreigner is treated for free (should the hospital decided that billing is too much hassle, but that happens verrry rarely).
I am from Germany, I was billed like 700€ for a small checkup in a hospital in France because of an infection in my mouth after an operation. They first couldn't find me, because they didn't write my address right. so I had a collection agency writing mean letters to me, wanting more money.
I gave it to my healthcare provider and they sorted it out and paid it without questions ✨
This is just off the top of my head, so the numbers are approximate.
In France it's (of course) a bit complicated in that you often pay first and then get partially reimbursed by the state system. If I go to my doctor and get a prescription, I'll pay about 20€ for the consultation + about 8€ for the medicine, no matter what it is, but will have about 70% of that paid back to my bank account later. If I were to go the hospital and have to stay overnight, I'll get charged a considerable amount for the treatment, medication and the hospital bed (and have that also partially reimbursed). However, there's a sliding scale of cosmetic to serious treatments that are reimbursed at progressively higher rates. This means you pay more for trivial stuff and less for important stuff up to life-threatening illnesses (e.g. cancer) for which the treatment is free (I think, I've not had one).
I pay around 8% of my annual income in health tax. Most people pay extra for private medical insurance (around 50€ a month, typically) in order to have all costs fully covered. The insurance companies are strictly regulated and pay out. I had a tooth pulled and it cost me 8€. If I want to replace it with an implant, it's 800€.
France is complicated.
In the UK there's usually no charge at all for a consultation or hospital treatment. Prescriptions are about £9 per item, no matter what the drug is. I pay approximately 11% of my annual income in health tax. Some people still pay extra for private health insurance in order to get preferential treatment and increase the inequality.
The above applies to residents, not to visitors unless their country has special agreement with the UK or French governments.
source: I've lived in both countries and I've almost bored myself into a coma by typing all this unnecessary detail.
although technically correct, compared with the incredibly overpriced and near criminal US system, the Europe health insurance systems might as well be free.
And they've been lied to not only about healthcare
They've also been lied to about work)life balance, about taxes for the rich, about cars and bicycles, about...
The US has become w cesspool over the past 5 decades basically because everyone there has been lying their asses off and nobody cared to force people to be truthful about anything
A good press could have stopped this tide but that's gone since long ago too
I have a friend who is a doctor and technically speaking Americans should get charged for medical treatment and then their insurance should pay for it, after all they are not citizens and don't pay taxes. But no one seems all that clear on how to actually bill them so it almost always never happens.
The American system is so batshit crazy that no one else from any other country knows how to interface with it.
And all of that collective real cost to administer is a tiny fraction of what an American would pay not only out of pocket, but also the monthly premiums both they and their employer pay to the insurance company. Who will initially deny the claim just as a matter of policy, regardless of whether it's covered or submitted correctly.
Then they will deny again because the ID code they used to bill it isn't "right" or it supposedly falls into some bullshit loophole documented nowhere. So both the patient and doctor's staff have to spend dozens of hours collectively wasting their time fighting to get something simple actually handled like it should be.
For a nation with half of all citizens owning guns, it’s amazing that there isn’t more pressure on politicians to implement a universal healthcare scheme.
Lone wolves tend to target schools and workplaces.
It will always remain baffling to me that no rogue widows or widowers, by consequence of the system, don’t bring their grievances to those in charge of healthcare policy.
It will always remain baffling to me that no rogue widows or widowers, by consequence of the system, don’t bring their grievances to those in charge of healthcare policy.
I think last year someone did. And like the heroes from the old Western movies, (s)he vanished into the sunset, never to be seen again.
I'm sure Trump would say that it was because the USA subsidized all your services because Americans created healthcare and everyone else is stealing it.
As an American, I'll gladly support the world's greatest economy by paying a few thousand to get checked out. Know why all these European countries are so poor? Because their health insurance and private health care companies barely make anything.
Actually, private health companies make bank.
Where I live, public health care is top notch, but you may have waiting lists, or have to share a room, and things like that. Private companies often provide more immediate appointments, single hospital rooms, certain diagnostics on demand, etc. Quite a few people either pay to have those plans, or their employer does. This is on top of public health care, not instead.
You can have your cake and eat it too.
Because their health insurance and private health care companies barely make anything.
As an european, i didn't even know we have private health care companies. We have private doctors, sure, where you pay a bit more in exchange they take a bit more time per patient, but public doctors are absolutely fine and do a good job, most of the time.
So, there's no insurance company which could profit to begin with. I think the "insurance company" is actually ran by the state and operates as a non-profit.
Germany has private and federal insurance. You have to be insured in either one of them. Still, private insurance is not insanely expensive, the main downside is that you generally have to foot the bill first and then make a claim to your insurance carrier. The upside is that doctors know they get their money for everything, even the "unnecessary" tests, so you get preferential treatment like less wait times for medical imaging and such which is a constant point of contention and discussion as it somewhat introduces a medical caste system.
What makes the German system way less toxic tho is that insurance carriers cannot just deny your claim with bullshit cop-outs like "out-of-network hospitals" or such. That doesn't exist.
France has some. They offer refunds on things that the public one doesn't support, and you will need some of them a few times in your life. I would guess something around 800€ was spent on me for non-refunded stuff thus far. It probably wouldn't justify getting an insurance, but it justifies their existence
It's not communism it's just social responsibility. The medical services aren't free they are paid for by society.
It's just that your value to society is not prejudiced by some corporate overlord before you're allowed to get your medical treatment.
Americans are so afraid of communism that they jump at shadows. It's almost impossible to forward a progressive idea without being accused of being some evil communist. It's kind of amazing the country has managed to get to 250 years without imploding
Americans don't have health care. We have health insurance. Think about your car insurance vs a warranty. That's the difference. We have a system in place that we want to be something it was never designed to be.
German health insurance companies are non-profit corporations. They basically aren't allowed to make any profit. Any surplus will be saved to cover future shortfalls. It's by no means a perfect system but a lot better than the hellscape that is the US.
A doctor with three decades of experience tells me I need a procedure. And a fresh-face college kid working at an insurance company, to keep their numbers down, tell me I don't need it.
Either way, I pay $6k in cash every year before anything really kicks in and that's beautiful.
When I lived in Japan, I cracked a rib. Went to the doctor, got an x-ray, and a follow up appointment. Total cost to me, with insurance, ~$50. Cost without insurance (e.g. a tourist) would have been ~$160
you forget, for Americans to leave the USA they are often spending $1000s on plane tickets. a ticket to my friends in Toronto is usually $300 for a cheap flight, average cost is closer to $500. Hotel for a 3-5 nights is another grand almost. Travel insurance is another 10% on top of all of that, or more.
Thousands?? I didn't realize it was that expensive for you to go to Europe. Is it like some kind of export tax you guys are charging yourselves because I had always assumed you guys can fly for cheaper due to the sheer volume of flights.
Even from Vancouver to London, it looks like it's less than $600US. I live in Japan right now and I'm headed to Germany next week, which is costing me $1000 ish per family member and I think I have to pay for insurance to be able to stay in the Schengen area.
If you ever find a cheap flight to Okinawa, hit me up and I'll treat you to a beer!
The upper classes are the only ones that can afford to travel in the USA. And they look down on everyone else as uncultured swine for not doing so.
I never got on a plane until I was in college and my college paid for it. My first trip abroad to Germany was $5000, and the college paid for $5000 of it. I spent paid the other $1000 and incidentals and it wiped out two entire summers of employment worth of savings.
Most people in the USA are poor. The median wage is 60K for a family w two working adults. To travel w/ a family you have to be making closer to 250K/yr.
You just only meet rich americans. You think a plane ticket for $1000 is cheap... wow.
Yeah, but what’s the lie on this context? And it’s stating the obvious that the $0.00 bill is untrue because the $ is “added” taxes, it’s not free for the people there. I’m all for single-payer/socialized care, but this text is kinda crap.
IMO the buried story is that a foreigner got full, quality, unquestioned medical care and was not given a guilt trip or asked to pay. That’s the amazing part.
if you call health-care premiums a tax (a rose by any other name etc) - Americans pay more as an amount, a percentage and per capita anyway. The only difference is the name.
Yeah, Americans don't just pay for healthcare but also to enrich insurance company workers. And even the healthcare part is gamed because the hospitals want to gouge the insurance companies for as much as possible, which then means the insurance companies reject some treatments (and guess who is ultimately paying for the people whose role is to deny as much coverage as possible?).
BuT bUt BuT tHe TaXeS!!
... I can almost guarantee the taxes are still less than the lost direct compensation from employers that instead goes to your insurance "benefit." :/
Last I checked the US spent more than any comparable country on healthcare/capita, roughly twice the OECD average.
And, they have to deal with medical bankruptcies, using Uber instead of ambulances, insulin rationing, and whatnot
but what about the shareholders?!?
But who would innovate if America didn't fleece its patients?
yeah but why would I pay for healthcare if I'm healthy(now)!!??
It's the least effective system, but at least it's not
communismsocialisma system where tax money is used to cover human rightsPlus hundreds of thousands of lawyers and lawsuits.
Healthcare is not cheap. I pay over a thousand euros per month. But it covers my whole family including me so its worth it.
I was doing the math on the new benefits package my company is rolling out and we're getting close to the point it'd be cheaper in nearly every instance to simply not have health insurance. I'm literally only keeping it for that slim chance one of us becomes extremely ill and needs major medical intervention.
This industry is like a balloon waiting to pop.
American here.
We were taught in grade school that Europeans lived longer because of the Mediterranean diet they ate. They could eat good bread and drink red wine and out live us Americans.
Turns out it was universal healthcare. We'll never get it here, and we'll die earlier and poorer because of it.
The mediterranean and athlantic diets also help. But to have them you also need better quality foods, which are also worse in the US with all the derregulation.
Excuse me while I eat my super processed pringles, and wash it down with a super sugary drink.
And walking
yeah it's a part deregulation but also the fact that US produces food in giga-farms in technical processes (like corn syrup and petroleum cheese) while in europe you have a whole lot more smaller regional farms which drives up the quality dramatically i believe. like, i think you probably won't find something as good as french mold cheese in the US, simply because there's not really any producers there. correct me if i'm wrong btw.
oh and also the fact that you need patience to really enjoy the food. if you're always in a hustle (grindset), you won't enjoy food anyways so there's no point for food producers to produce better quality food if nobody appreciates it...
Not to mention they don't live their lives in morbid anxiety over getting sick or injured. So that's years more of life just by not being stressed and being able to think clearly.
Only people who live in the Mediterranean eat the Mediterranean diet. Frankly just because it's better for you doesn't mean it's going to make you live longer necessarily it just won't make you live shorter. And maybe they won't have to make a special spherical coffin when you do die.
Glad you completely missed my point. I hope you enjoy dying earlier than anyone that has universal healthcare.
What are you on about?
I mean i'm pretty sure that plays a major role too. Italian diet is just on a whole other level
I mean, is it true that you eat cheese that is literally made of petroleum?
And don't get me started on the cornflakes and sugary drinks.
Well, both are true. Apart of the traditional diet, European food regulations are solid and put consumers health above corporate benefits.
American food is almost as awful as American healthcare.
It wasn't universal healthcare, it was a combination of poor records restoration by the US Army after WW2 and rampant pension fraud.
what?
I live in the Netherlands. If I visit the hospital I have to pay my yearly deductible of €350 first. This person paid zero dollars because her travel insurance paid for it.
The Netherlands has the same system as Obamacare. Privatized insurance with government subsidies for low income. Only difference is that the government sorta acts like a single payer, they negotiate with big pharma over medicine prices and the government with the insurers make a price list for healthcare providers on what they can charge.
Of course a healthcare provider can decide to charge whatever they want but then insurance won’t cover that business.
The Netherlands is something like the 2nd most costly medical care in the world, far behind the US but still way more expensive than necessary. We had a "center right" party in power for ages, with their religious belief that the only way to do anything is for someone to make profit. 😑
Edit:
I just checked and we're actually below Switzerland, Norway, and Germany. I'm shocked!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_health_expenditure_per_capita
The number for Germany seems to also include Lohnfortzahlung and Krankengeld (employer only pays part of a sick employee's salary, rest is paid by health insurance) maybe that's why. Germany is also a world champion of unnecessary surgeries.
By about 50% more according to the bar chart in that link
My deductible is something like $2,500 per person, $13,000 for the family deductible. Once we reach our deductibles we have the joy of coinsurance kicking in where insurance will pay for 50% and we pay the rest. I took a trip to the ER earlier this year for chest pains. They took a chest xray and had me on an EKG for an hour. I got a separate bill for each little thing they did from like 5 different companies (????) Totaling ~$4,000.
I also live here and I can see a consultation with my GP cost 20 eur per visit. So you have to pay 350 first only if its very expensive care.
A GP visit is fully covered by insurance, a visit to a specialist, like in an hospital, needs to be paid by the deductible first even for a mere consultation with a specialist. Doesn’t matter if it was expensive or not.
And if you visit a specialist without a referral from your GP or dentist then usually insurance won’t cover anything. Except for visits to the emergency room.
Only recently did the United States start treading into monopsony territory when it comes to healthcare funding. Specifically the cost of a certain small list of medicines.
Of course, those gains have been reversed by the shift in political winds, but there is a potential for this policy to expand in the future.
I naively expected that all of Europe had health care figured out. The bullshit $450 USD bill I got in Sweden for existing in the same room with a doctor for 15 minutes taught me otherwise.
You know how in many poor countries, they'll charge you higher prices because they (rightly) think that you're a westerner and can thus pay much higher prices than the locals? I heavily suspect that was basically that. Swedes aren't paying $450 USD for 15 minutes doctor time.
I figured as much, but it was jarring to receive worse care and for way more money than I would have paid at home (even uninsured).
Yeah, as a German, the quality of care isn't necessarily that great (though I never experience the US healthcare system to compare). Many European countries have been heavily cutting corners in the last 1-2 decades. I've been to several doctors who, after waiting like 3 months for an appointment, have been practically useless. "I tried nothing and I'm all out of ideas" kind of shit, and for several different issues. They're fine with simple/obvious stuff, but once it's slightly difficult to figure out or any kind of mental health issue you're pretty much just going there to be able to tell your employer that you're trying, and maybe get lucky with medication.
I'm sure there's levels of competency, but it seems a large part of the failure of the US healthcare itself is when doctors have to try and convince the insurance corporation that they do have education and experience and the procedure or medication they recommended to help someone is valid. As if the insurance company knows better and is trying to protect the patient... right.
Prior Authorizations as an idea, are just the insurance company playing doctor. They should be illegal, the company doesn't have a medical license.
The insurance companies do have doctors on staff though. They're just incentivised to deny everything lest they get fired.
Your experience is more realistic than the one in the post. EU citizens in EU countries "don't pay" for healthcare services because it's already paid through taxes, foreigners are supposed to be billed because they don't pay taxes in the EU. (it doesn't always happen tho, you know, administrative error, oops)
Not necessarily true for all foreigners. Australia has reciprocal healthcare agreements with many EU countries. That means if an Aussie visits those countries, healthcare is covered and the opposite is true as well. Whereas that wouldn't apply for a USian.
Well you don't pay for it but your country's mutual assistance fund does that for you. That's the same arrangement intra-EU.
As far as I'm aware, it's just a "we cover your citizens if you cover our citizens" sort of arrangement.
Are you American?
I'm pretty sure most developed countries have reciprocal agreements with other developed countries that cover emergencies. If an Australian breaks an arm while in Norway, I don't think they're going to get a bill.
But, of course, the US is different. Countries can't have reciprocal agreements with the US, because the US has a for-profit system. If a Swede has to go to the hospital in the US, they better hope they have travel insurance. So, if an American goes to Sweden, they're also going to get billed. And if you think $450 is an expensive medical bill for someone without insurance in the US, you're dreaming.
Yes.
I said it was possible to get a bare bones GP visit without insurance in the US for less than $450. I’m fully aware the system is broken and a car accident or serious injury will almost certainly bankrupt individuals without insurance.
But apples-to-apples comparison, the care in Sweden was worse for more money.
It's at the high end of what you might expect in the US, but it's not far outside the range. This page estimates that a typical visit costs between $150 and $450. But, the cost of an ER visit without insurance is in the multiple thousands.
What you did if you went to see a random doctor in Sweden is probably more similar to an ER visit, not because it's an emergency, but because it it's not the easy case of someone just visiting their family doctor. A doctor in the US is probably used to seeing uninsured patients and has a standard way of billing them. But, a doctor in Sweden is probably not used to dealing with patients who aren't covered under the Swedish system (or under an EU country's system that has a reciprocal agreement with Sweden). If you lived there long-term, you'd be integrated into their system. So, I assume you weren't seeing your regular doctor, you were seeing a doctor who had to handle a special case of an American without travel insurance. So, they have to figure out how to do all the required paperwork, and pay all the people who need to get paid when a doctor sees a patient, but without the standard procedures. So, you pay extra to deal with that one-off paperwork.
So, the expense isn't because healthcare in Sweden is expensive in general. It's expensive for you because dealing with uninsured Americans is not something they normally do, and it's a pain in the ass, so it has a high price.
I don’t know about Sweden, but in Canada there is a sign with the prices for non-Canadians next to the check in desk in the Emergency. I’m willing to bet that even though it was expensive, it’s still cheaper than the US.
Which is why many Americans cross the border for healthcare.
For what it’s worth, the language barrier was pretty significant from a written signs perspective. I showed up at what I guessed was the right spot, went inside, gave them my passport, and they returned it with a bill for $450 (it was expressed in kr, but this is what it converted to). I eventually went in and spoke to a doctor who took no vitals, did no tests, and gave me no medicine. And that was the visit.
I’ve seen a doctor as an American with no insurance a number of times. For a basic GP visit, it’s probably half that price and that’s with basic vitals included.
Not sure for Sweden but usually it's for citizens or permanent residents. Populations tend to not appreciate their taxes going toward foreign entities. That said, the drug prices etc. are at their actual value, so an example of a trip to a GP and getting prescription pain relief, it would be about $40-60 USD depending on circumstances.
My daughter was in Ireland and had a problem that would have cost her a minimum of four thousand in the US with insurance. Her cost was 75 euros. They apologized for it not being complexly free.
Only 30x? Pfft, don't you want to be endebted for life??
Did you guys think we were just all collectively lying to you about this shit?
Hey, Grammy's cancer bill just came in and it's 1 million euros, tell the Americans it was free though.
I'm financially destroyed but at least I can make fun of Americans
Pointing out that "free" healthcare is actually paid for by somebody is seen as a killer gotcha in the conservative world. They assume that as soon as somebody learns that they are paying money into taxes that benefit other people, they will also flip out and fight tooth and nail to stop it.
Keep pushing and they might hit you with another zinger, like how the US is not a democracy, it's a republic! 🤯
Here’s a fun fact, though…people in the US pay more in taxes towards healthcare than we do here in the UK. And then they have to pay on top of that.
It’s almost as if having an entire for-profit industry acting as middle-men doesn’t lead to the best value for money.
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/healthcaresystem/articles/howdoesukhealthcarespendingcompareinternationally/2016-11-01
Yep, like many things with this country, when you keep digging instead of finding the inevitable reasonable explanation you find that it just gets stupider.
Fun fact, not just the UK but in fact every single nation on planet earth.
That is correct, as a portion of GDP Americans pay a higher portion of tax into healthcare than any nation on planet earth by a significant margin, before anyone ever pays a cent privately.
America is also the only industrialised nation on earth, the only member of the G20 who does not provide some form of cradle to grave medical coverage for all citizens
Oh your think your firemen are FREE do you?? Hmmmm gotcha lib
they do, with a shit load of propaganda.
mostly they focus on diminishing the value of public healthcare, and compare it with the best theoretical private service you could get.
look at those dirty europoors with dirt cheap healthcare and endless waiting times (both lies), and compare it with what a CEO can afford in there states. you see? US private system is better.
unless you're poor or middle class who can't afford to live, in which case, fuck you.
Insurance is just a scam to keep people enslaved to jobs for their premiums and coverage. If only quality care wasn't tied to employers' insurance we might actually have competition back in the market. Have better products and a livable state of life. As someone on Medicare I can't afford a 400% increase to my premium after tax credits are slashed in the coming years. Socialism is at least a band aid to our monolithic oppressive capitalist economy.
Its just privatized socialism, where the rich get subsidized by the poors who have it but cant afford the minimum and co pays to actually use it.
friendly reminder that mutual insurance exists, you can just pool your money together with other people to insure each other.
It's probably the closest you can get to opting into socialism in a capitalist society.
This is misleading. Also in Europe people need to pay for healthcare - it’s just that the costs are lower and more equally distributed. It does happen that a foreigner is treated for free (should the hospital decided that billing is too much hassle, but that happens verrry rarely).
in France and the UK I'm quite sure you're treated for free, or I'm living in a fairytale, which is possible also
I am from Germany, I was billed like 700€ for a small checkup in a hospital in France because of an infection in my mouth after an operation. They first couldn't find me, because they didn't write my address right. so I had a collection agency writing mean letters to me, wanting more money.
I gave it to my healthcare provider and they sorted it out and paid it without questions ✨
yep okay... so I mistook not denying care with free treatment. The letters were in French I guess?
Fairytale it is.
Yes angry french letters, but no problem I guess. Was insured via EU-Insurance pact from my German provider
This is just off the top of my head, so the numbers are approximate.
In France it's (of course) a bit complicated in that you often pay first and then get partially reimbursed by the state system. If I go to my doctor and get a prescription, I'll pay about 20€ for the consultation + about 8€ for the medicine, no matter what it is, but will have about 70% of that paid back to my bank account later. If I were to go the hospital and have to stay overnight, I'll get charged a considerable amount for the treatment, medication and the hospital bed (and have that also partially reimbursed). However, there's a sliding scale of cosmetic to serious treatments that are reimbursed at progressively higher rates. This means you pay more for trivial stuff and less for important stuff up to life-threatening illnesses (e.g. cancer) for which the treatment is free (I think, I've not had one).
I pay around 8% of my annual income in health tax. Most people pay extra for private medical insurance (around 50€ a month, typically) in order to have all costs fully covered. The insurance companies are strictly regulated and pay out. I had a tooth pulled and it cost me 8€. If I want to replace it with an implant, it's 800€.
France is complicated.
In the UK there's usually no charge at all for a consultation or hospital treatment. Prescriptions are about £9 per item, no matter what the drug is. I pay approximately 11% of my annual income in health tax. Some people still pay extra for private health insurance in order to get preferential treatment and increase the inequality.
The above applies to residents, not to visitors unless their country has special agreement with the UK or French governments.
source: I've lived in both countries and I've almost bored myself into a coma by typing all this unnecessary detail.
although technically correct, compared with the incredibly overpriced and near criminal US system, the Europe health insurance systems might as well be free.
Yep
And they've been lied to not only about healthcare
They've also been lied to about work)life balance, about taxes for the rich, about cars and bicycles, about...
The US has become w cesspool over the past 5 decades basically because everyone there has been lying their asses off and nobody cared to force people to be truthful about anything
A good press could have stopped this tide but that's gone since long ago too
Won't somebody please think of the shareholders!?
Fuck the shareholders.
No! That is how you get more of them
Not if you do it properly.
I have a friend who is a doctor and technically speaking Americans should get charged for medical treatment and then their insurance should pay for it, after all they are not citizens and don't pay taxes. But no one seems all that clear on how to actually bill them so it almost always never happens.
The American system is so batshit crazy that no one else from any other country knows how to interface with it.
No one from the US knows how to interface with it either. It's a giant unnavigable mess.
I mean if fascism isn't enough of an incentive to leave a shitty country i don't know what is.
You are not getting healthcare before you do your homework (a revolution deposing your oligarchs).
Lots of people can't leave. Be it because of finances, or their skill set not being needed to get a visa in another country
Unless countries start to recognize the situation in the US as asylum worthy, there's not much one can do to leave the country
Well personally i would give you asylum but my country refuses to take any refugees as we are trying the same direction.
And all of that collective real cost to administer is a tiny fraction of what an American would pay not only out of pocket, but also the monthly premiums both they and their employer pay to the insurance company. Who will initially deny the claim just as a matter of policy, regardless of whether it's covered or submitted correctly.
Then they will deny again because the ID code they used to bill it isn't "right" or it supposedly falls into some bullshit loophole documented nowhere. So both the patient and doctor's staff have to spend dozens of hours collectively wasting their time fighting to get something simple actually handled like it should be.
For a nation with half of all citizens owning guns, it’s amazing that there isn’t more pressure on politicians to implement a universal healthcare scheme.
Lone wolves tend to target schools and workplaces.
It will always remain baffling to me that no rogue widows or widowers, by consequence of the system, don’t bring their grievances to those in charge of healthcare policy.
I think last year someone did. And like the heroes from the old Western movies, (s)he vanished into the sunset, never to be seen again.
I'm sure Trump would say that it was because the USA subsidized all your services because Americans created healthcare and everyone else is stealing it.
Sounds like COMMUNISM to me!
As an American, I'll gladly support the world's greatest economy by paying a few thousand to get checked out. Know why all these European countries are so poor? Because their health insurance and private health care companies barely make anything.
Do your part! Contribute to the economy!
God bless America!
Actually, private health companies make bank. Where I live, public health care is top notch, but you may have waiting lists, or have to share a room, and things like that. Private companies often provide more immediate appointments, single hospital rooms, certain diagnostics on demand, etc. Quite a few people either pay to have those plans, or their employer does. This is on top of public health care, not instead. You can have your cake and eat it too.
As an european, i didn't even know we have private health care companies. We have private doctors, sure, where you pay a bit more in exchange they take a bit more time per patient, but public doctors are absolutely fine and do a good job, most of the time.
So, there's no insurance company which could profit to begin with. I think the "insurance company" is actually ran by the state and operates as a non-profit.
Germany has private and federal insurance. You have to be insured in either one of them. Still, private insurance is not insanely expensive, the main downside is that you generally have to foot the bill first and then make a claim to your insurance carrier. The upside is that doctors know they get their money for everything, even the "unnecessary" tests, so you get preferential treatment like less wait times for medical imaging and such which is a constant point of contention and discussion as it somewhat introduces a medical caste system.
What makes the German system way less toxic tho is that insurance carriers cannot just deny your claim with bullshit cop-outs like "out-of-network hospitals" or such. That doesn't exist.
France has some. They offer refunds on things that the public one doesn't support, and you will need some of them a few times in your life. I would guess something around 800€ was spent on me for non-refunded stuff thus far. It probably wouldn't justify getting an insurance, but it justifies their existence
You forgot the /s
If you need the /s, you don't deserve the /s
Americans are so afraid of communism that they forgot the good things that it can bring. Capitalism on the other hand...
It's not communism it's just social responsibility. The medical services aren't free they are paid for by society.
It's just that your value to society is not prejudiced by some corporate overlord before you're allowed to get your medical treatment.
Americans are so afraid of communism that they jump at shadows. It's almost impossible to forward a progressive idea without being accused of being some evil communist. It's kind of amazing the country has managed to get to 250 years without imploding
Leading lobbying industries in the United States in 2024, by total lobbying spending (in million U.S. dollars)
I can't remember the last time I've heard someone use the term communism or socialism correctly.
He was murdered by communism
Communism didn't bring this. Capitalism brought this. Trail blazed by the NHS, in the UK, the country that took capitalism global.
A bit confused arent you? Capitalism brought the opposite. Die next to me, while I'm finishing my cocktail.
True or false: The Netherlands, where Amsterdam is, is a capitalist country?
Americans don't have health care. We have health insurance. Think about your car insurance vs a warranty. That's the difference. We have a system in place that we want to be something it was never designed to be.
Many European countries also organize their healthcare systems as insurance (e.g. Germany). The difference is that they're heavily regulated.
German health insurance companies are non-profit corporations. They basically aren't allowed to make any profit. Any surplus will be saved to cover future shortfalls. It's by no means a perfect system but a lot better than the hellscape that is the US.
I don't understand, if the insurance companies are non profit how to they make new pharma billionaires? America exists only to create billionaires.
The solution is obviously more guns.
Its a wonderful system.
A doctor with three decades of experience tells me I need a procedure. And a fresh-face college kid working at an insurance company, to keep their numbers down, tell me I don't need it.
Either way, I pay $6k in cash every year before anything really kicks in and that's beautiful.
that's how it is set up everywhere else. that is just a financial tool to spread cost.
the difference is that in the US it is done for profit, most other countries it is done for public welfare.
WELFARE? THAT'S COMMUNISM - US conservatives
I mean as cool as this is, it's exactly the story the right uses to oppose it.
Non tax paying, non citizens getting subsidized healthcare. A conservative horror story for the ages
Conservatives are bad people and they should be prohibited from making policy decisions.
I have a similar story that works much better:
When I lived in Japan, I cracked a rib. Went to the doctor, got an x-ray, and a follow up appointment. Total cost to me, with insurance, ~$50. Cost without insurance (e.g. a tourist) would have been ~$160
Wtf? Do Americans not buy travel insurance when they leave the country?
it's too expensive.
you forget, for Americans to leave the USA they are often spending $1000s on plane tickets. a ticket to my friends in Toronto is usually $300 for a cheap flight, average cost is closer to $500. Hotel for a 3-5 nights is another grand almost. Travel insurance is another 10% on top of all of that, or more.
Thousands?? I didn't realize it was that expensive for you to go to Europe. Is it like some kind of export tax you guys are charging yourselves because I had always assumed you guys can fly for cheaper due to the sheer volume of flights.
Even from Vancouver to London, it looks like it's less than $600US. I live in Japan right now and I'm headed to Germany next week, which is costing me $1000 ish per family member and I think I have to pay for insurance to be able to stay in the Schengen area.
If you ever find a cheap flight to Okinawa, hit me up and I'll treat you to a beer!
The upper classes are the only ones that can afford to travel in the USA. And they look down on everyone else as uncultured swine for not doing so.
I never got on a plane until I was in college and my college paid for it. My first trip abroad to Germany was $5000, and the college paid for $5000 of it. I spent paid the other $1000 and incidentals and it wiped out two entire summers of employment worth of savings.
Most people in the USA are poor. The median wage is 60K for a family w two working adults. To travel w/ a family you have to be making closer to 250K/yr.
You just only meet rich americans. You think a plane ticket for $1000 is cheap... wow.
No shit, our president has a horrible aversion to the truth and shit rolls downhill.
Yeah, but what’s the lie on this context? And it’s stating the obvious that the $0.00 bill is untrue because the $ is “added” taxes, it’s not free for the people there. I’m all for single-payer/socialized care, but this text is kinda crap.
IMO the buried story is that a foreigner got full, quality, unquestioned medical care and was not given a guilt trip or asked to pay. That’s the amazing part.
if you call health-care premiums a tax (a rose by any other name etc) - Americans pay more as an amount, a percentage and per capita anyway. The only difference is the name.
Yeah, Americans don't just pay for healthcare but also to enrich insurance company workers. And even the healthcare part is gamed because the hospitals want to gouge the insurance companies for as much as possible, which then means the insurance companies reject some treatments (and guess who is ultimately paying for the people whose role is to deny as much coverage as possible?).
That wasn’t what I was arguing.
here's how I read it:
"it's not free because Europeans pay taxes"
"yeah, so do Americans, they just call it premiums rather than taxes, and when comparing that way, Americans still pay way more"